March 9, 2023 • 50 mins
Pornography has been the primary blame for many relationship problems. Fingers get pointed. Feelings get hurt. Doors get slammed. Psychologist and sex therapist David Ley, PhD believes pornography gets the blame because it is the “big, sexy, shiny object” that grabs the focus when a relationship is feeling bumpy. Ley says pornography is really just a symptom of other underlying issues that are not being discussed. In fact, he says pornography can be a great resource that can introduce novelty and new ideas to a couple’s sexy life if it’s viewed together. He and Ali also talk about why men seem to use it so much, the importance of communication and, hot tip, there is feminist porn out there.
If you have questions or guest suggestions, Ali would love to hear from you. Call or text her at (323) 364-6356. Or email go-ask-ali-podcast-at-gmail.com. (No dashes)
**Go Ask Ali has been nominated for a Webby Award for Best Interview/Talk Show Episode! Please vote for her and the whole team at https://bit.ly/415e8uN by April 20, 2023!
Links of Interest:
Ethical Porn for Dicks: A Man’s Guide to Responsible Viewing Pleasure
Is Watching Porn Right for You (Psychology Today)
A Beginner’s Guide to Watching Feminist Porn (Vice)
The Top Ethical Porn Sites that Are Inclusive and Empowering (Glamour UK)
Common Sense About the Effects of Pornography (Psychology Today)
Credits:
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Brooke Peterson-Bell
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio. When I have been with
friends and that happened and I peed my pants, I
did lose the room. They did leave. I saw her
light up and I was like, I'm just going to work.
But we are here until one of our last rips. Yeah.
I was just the one that was meant to take
(00:22):
care of mamma. It's for me to remember every single
day is that I always have a choice. Everyone always
has a choice. Whenever somebody says no, you can't, or
there's no roles for you, or you have to look
like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll show you.
(00:42):
Welcome to Go ask Ally. I'm Allie Wentworth. So this
is a very tricky subject, the subject of pornography. And
to be very honest with you, I don't watch pornography.
I never have. It's not something that I look for
in my life. I have issues with it, particularly about
(01:03):
the subjucation of women and my fear that it damages intimacy.
And I call it a friend of mine recently and
I said, is everybody watching pornography? I mean, I've been
married for twenty one years and I haven't, and she said, oh, Ali, listen.
First of all, pornography is pervasive, so you better get
(01:24):
used to it. So I decided I need to delve
into the subject a little bit because I am curious
and I do want to learn. So for the sake
of this podcast, the pornography we are discussing in this
episode is ethical pornography people who want to be there,
(01:45):
and I also want to know personally does pornography affect
long term monogamous relationships? After all, it's a huge part
of our culture, and there's nobody better to talk to.
The doctor David Lay. He's a clinical psychologist, sex therapist,
and author. He's written several books and research articles on sexuality,
(02:09):
sex addiction, and pornography, including The Myth of Sex Addiction
and Ethical porn for Dicks, A Man's Guide to Responsible
Viewing Pleasure. Doctor Lay is a frequent guest in media,
on television with Anderson Cooper, Katie Currek, Doctor Phil and others,
and in print including The New York Times, CNN, and
Time and Playboy magazines and now on Go Ask Galli
(02:31):
the podcast. Well, first of all, thank you for being here,
Doctor David Lay. Thank you for having they should be
a fun chet Yeah. So you know, you've written such
incredible books. And one of the things I was very
cognizant of was when I started this podcast, there are
so many different directions I can go in. And I
(02:53):
realized recently as I was talking to women kind of
my age let's say middle age, but let's just say
forty and people women particularly, we're having the same conversations
with me, which basically were is pornography okay in a
(03:15):
long term monogamous relationship? And the interesting thing is when
I talk to women, the majority of the women say
it's not okay, I'm uncomfortable with it, blah blah blah.
The men say, I see it as something completely different.
I can compartmentalize it doesn't affect my relationship. And every
one of my gay male friends says it's totally fine.
(03:37):
It's part of our relationship. So I'm curious. Does pornography
affect monogamous relationships? Kennet. It's a good question, Allie. At first,
I think we have to acknowledge not all couples are
the same as you. As you identified. We see this
(03:57):
popping up for heterosexual couples. We don't see pornography being
a problem or a conflict in LGBT couples. We also,
interestingly don't see it as a problem in non monogamous couples.
Non monogamous couples tend to use pornography more than monogamous
couples and don't have any problems or consequences related to
(04:19):
it for the most part. When we look at heterosexual couples,
one of the things that we do find is that
a hetero couple that watches porn together tend to have
a healthier relationship, have more sex, have more novel sex,
and have a healthier sexual relationship. Couples where one partner
(04:39):
views pornography in a negative way, couples where one at
least one partner has moral concerns about pornography are likely
to have conflicts over pornography, so the pornography represents moral
attitudes about sex. One of the things that I see
when I work with couples where there is a conflict
(05:02):
about pornography is that oftentimes one partner has the idea
that watching pornography is a form of infidelity, that watching
pornography is somehow demeaning to them or to others. Or
that watching pornography creates a competition with the primary partner,
such that one partner might feel like, well, you're watching
(05:25):
people that look different than me or are more attractive
than me, and so you're not attracted to me anymore. Well,
one of the things I hear from women over and
over again is what am I not enough? That is
the number one thing I hear over and over. Am
I not enough? Why does he or she need to
go outside the relationship for arousal And I can't possibly
(05:49):
compete with that idealized version of a sexual partner exactly.
And one of the challenges is that couples are oftentimes
not talking about that. Those attitudes or feelings are there,
but the couple isn't sitting down and having a conversation
about their attitudes about sex and masturbation. And that's also
(06:10):
one of those super important things, because oftentimes couples will
fight over pornography when actually what they're fighting over is masturbation,
and most pornography is accompanied by masturbation, but we oftentimes
forget to talk about that now. And I think it's
important because one of the things that we see, particularly
(06:32):
in heterosexual couples that have been together for a while
and are monogamous. Is that as sex frequency goes down
in men especially and in women to a degree, masturbation
and porn consumption goes up. So people are using pornography
and masturbation as a way to compensate for the couple
(06:52):
not having as much sex as they would really like
to have. That conversation oftentimes doesn't happen. I'm wondering too,
because I'm you know again, I'm talking about a monogamous
relationship that has been going on for a while. And
I wonder too with women my age, like in perimenopause
and menopause, their libido goes way down, so they're already
(07:16):
feeling insufficient, and then I would imagine their husband or
their spouses or their partners porn watching and masturbation goes up,
and so you then have this inequality of kind of
sexual activity that I would imagine causes a lot of problems.
(07:37):
It certainly can, as again, especially when that resentment or
conflict is there and people aren't talking about it. Now,
I will say, we don't teach people how to talk
about this stuff. I mean, we don't teach people even
somebody you've been married to for fifteen or twenty years,
we don't teach people to talk about masturbation. Now again
(08:00):
when we refocus this on masturbation, and I think that's
an important piece because back in twenty seventeen, a colleague
of mine, Sam Perry, he's a sociologist in Oklahoma, he
published data that showed at the time that pornography used
predicted future divorce. Now, Sam went back and reanalyzed the
(08:23):
data a little later when he heard from folks like me,
and interestingly, he found that actually, when you separate out
the variance related to masturbation, that pornography used actually was
neutral to slightly positive for a relationship, but masturbation frequency
(08:44):
predicted future relationship problems. Now, it's not that masturbation is
bad for a marriage, but masturbation increases can reflect a
desired discrepancy, can reflect sexual mismatch that isn't getting talked
about in the relationship. That and it's a symptom of
other issues. When I see couples in my office, and
(09:06):
I see a lot of them that are struggling with pornography,
it is always the canary in the coal mine. There
are other issues and problems that don't relate to the pornography,
but the pornography is a symptom of it. So, for instance,
you know, one partner might have a sexual interest that
the other partner doesn't share and actually shames the one
(09:29):
partner for having an interest in, whether it's pornography or
fetish behavior or BDSM or any other kind of behavior.
So the partner goes to pornography to experience that kind
of arousal and stimulation in a way they can't get
with their partner because of the conflict and the undisclosed
(09:49):
or unresolved kind of mismatch. I mean, you've talked about
symptoms of pornography and masturbation being abandonment and rejection. I mean,
do you have to and if you did really go
into deep therapy about the underlying issues, would that somehow
change their pornography viewing if you really got to the
(10:12):
root of it. I've seen that happen. Definitely. When we
can get the couple to talk about the fears, the emotions,
the thoughts that they are having about this issue, then
we can start addressing those real issues. Unfortunately, pornography is
(10:34):
a it's a sexy, shiny object that distracts us from
dealing with those real underlying conflicts. And I think that's
so important because you know, if the husband, and unfortunately
this often is a male female kind of dynamic, if
the husband doesn't really understand the degree to which his
(10:57):
wife feels threatened by the women in porn, then he
can't do the work to let her know how attractive
he thinks she is, how attracted he is still to her,
and that she is somebody he lust after still after
fifteen years of marriage. So explain the sexual shiny object
(11:19):
syndrome exactly. So whenever, whenever sex is present and porn
is a big, sexy, shining object, we get distracted by
that and we chase it like a rabbit down a
hole and blame lots and lots of problems on that
(11:39):
instead of addressing again all these underlying kind of problems. Now,
both men and women use pornography viewing as a way
to deal with negative emotions. Men in particular used pornography
and masturbation of pornography as a way to kind of
turn off anxiety because it is a very effective strategy
(12:00):
for that. Well, how is it effective for anxiety? Evolutionarily?
You know, we were built as a species that made
it at any opportunity, and if we were nervous about
that saber tooth tiger getting us, you would jerk off, Well,
you wouldn't. You wouldn't jerk off, you wouldn't masturbate. And
(12:23):
so sexual arousal turns off anxiety. It turned you know,
changes some of the function in our brain um so
that we are more focused on pleasure. Pleasure feels better.
It puts away you know, our discussed our even our
our tendency to feel discussed for something goes down when
(12:44):
we're sexually aroused, and then unfortunately oftentimes it comes back
after our orgasm, and then people start feeling discussed even
at the thing, at what they were fantasizing about or watching.
How does that differ for women? Women have more effective
and varied coping strategies to deal with negative emotions. You know,
(13:04):
women from from an early age or taught to express, acknowledge, identify,
and cope with negative emotions. Guys a lot of times
in my office, sitting on my couch, guys don't even
have very good ability to name the negative emotions that
they're feeling, so they oftentimes don't practice many skills to
(13:27):
deal with negative emotions and because watching pornography is a
great way to turn off the depression or the anxiety
and not worry about those things. Right, then guys can
oftentimes overuse it. Now, if if that is going on
in a relationship and we don't deal with it, we
(13:48):
don't we don't help the guy learn other coping strategies
to deal with those negative emotions. Then oftentimes what happens
is we are trying to take away some of they's
only coping strategies for bad feelings, and that can actually
backlash and increase, right, increase anxiety and depression because now
(14:10):
he is feeling sad or depressed or worried and he
can't go to those things to feel better. Again, if
we don't deal with those underlying issues for the man
and the couple and we just focus on the pornography,
we're missing the point, right. Um, But it is possible
for both partners to feel arousal at the same time
(14:35):
with pornography. Yeah, oftentimes, Um, that is one of the
that that that's one of the strategies when couples watch
porn together. Now, I think and in my third book
about Responsible porn Use for Men, which is a great
title by the way, thank you, um ethical dicks for
(14:56):
all those guys named Richard who liked to watch porn
um and and even just the idea that there is
a thing called ethical pornography is oftentimes a challenge for
people because they think that all pornography is inherently exploitive
and if we if we then start to that is
one of the things that oftentimes women fear about pornography
(15:19):
is that women are being exploited in it, that they
can't watch it ethically or safely. And I like to say, hey,
there's fair trade born out there, just like fair trade coffee,
where you don't have to feel guilty. Yeah, I'm trying
to be more open minded about it, particularly when it
comes to couples and how it relates to a relationship.
(15:42):
There's a lot more to come after the short break
and we're back. I just want to want to ask
you right here about the men of sex addiction, because
you've got very specific views about it, and one has
(16:07):
a tendency in much of what I've read, particularly women,
that when men use a lot of pornography, they are
labeled as sex addicts, and that's not always true true,
And I'm on record for really challenging the whole concept
of sex addiction again because it distracts us from dealing with,
oftentimes the real issues. So the research actually today, over
(16:31):
the past seven years or so, has found that there
are roughly two things that predominantly predict whether a male
is going to identify as a porn addict. One is
whether he was raised religious or not. Two now is
whether he is highly narcissistic. And the religious conflict is
(16:54):
coming from the fact that these are men who believe
that pornography and masturbation immoral, and then they engage in
that behavior, and then they feel bad for engaging in
the behavior. The problem is not the pornography. The problem
is engaging in a behavior that you disagree with and
not ever examining or addressing or dealing with that internal conflict.
(17:19):
The narcissism is a new finding that is popping up
in research just recently, and narcissists and narcissistic males oftentimes
engage in more selfish, exploitive sexual behavior, and when they
are having conflict about it, they're much less likely to
take personal responsibility for it and instead blame somebody or
(17:42):
something else like pornography, which is why you see so
many celebrities in the past, that's right, who have been
you know, incredibly unfaithful and a bit of a player
or a dog, and all of a sudden they're like,
I'm a sex addict, I'm going to rehab, I'll be
back in three months and all is forgiven. And yeah,
do they address it and rehab sex addiction summer camp. No,
(18:06):
they don't address it there. Instead they do things like
ride horses and you know, engage in really unsupported kind
of therapy. It's really important to know that. You know,
after forty years of the sex addiction model existing, there's
no data showing that that treatment works. There's there's no
(18:26):
evidence that sex addiction treatment is effective at addressing any
of these problems. Instead, what does work for people that
are struggling with pornography is cognitive behavioral therapy or what's
called acceptance and commitment therapy. These are both strategies that
don't try to stop the behavior, but instead try to
address and explore the function and the meaning of the behavior.
(18:50):
That again is I think the thing that gets lost
when we overfocus on the sexual behavior. We stop recognizing
that this is a behavior that's occurred in a person,
and in a relationship, and in a personal history of
sexual attitudes and morality, and to understand that sexual behavior,
(19:11):
we have to understand all of those things. Is there
a theme that you have seen a lot in your
work when it comes to pornography and couples, They recurring theme.
I should say largely what you really described early on
is that the wife oftentimes has concerns about what the
(19:31):
pornography use means, and the couple isn't talking about it
oftentimes because the husband is ashamed. Now, I do see
men who don't want to pressure their wife for sex.
They know that she's not feeling particularly into it, and
they're going to feel guilty if they keep hounding her
(19:52):
to have sex, So they masturbate to porn as an experience,
as a release, so that they don't have to feel
like they're pressure on her. So it's interesting that there's empathy.
They're motivating these behaviors for the husbands, so they feel
worse about sort of asking their wife for sex more
(20:14):
than feeling bad about watching pornography. Oftentimes, Yeah, because because
they know the wife feels pressured and they don't want
to be that guy. Yeah, that can't feel good. Sexually
either when you know your partner's not into it. Yeah. Yeah. Now.
The one of the other things that we are seeing
in recent research and clinically is that men who experience
(20:38):
any form of sexual dysfunction, whether it's premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation,
or a rectile dysfunction, are fifty percent more likely to
experience symptoms of that dysfunction when they are attempting to
have partnered sex and not during masturbation. So the wife
can get upset and say, well, you don't have problems
(21:01):
with your sexual function when you're masturbating watching porn, but
when you try and have sex with me, these problems
are coming up and you can't get hard. Is there
something wrong with me? Or did porn do this? But
the problem is the sexual dysfunction, And again the problem
oftentimes is anxiety. It is much easier to relax, watch
(21:25):
pornography and masturbate. You don't have to buy the internet dinner,
you don't have to try and find its clitterus, you
don't have to worry about giving the Internet an orgasm.
But when we're with a partner, you know, we do
have to be mindful, We do have to be thoughtful
and pay attention to our partner's needs. And for men
that are dealing with sexual dysfunction and have anxiety, that
(21:47):
is a recipe for struggle. So one of the things
that I do with those kinds of couples is, hey,
let's look at the differences between watching pornography and masturbating
versus partnered sex. Now, what are some things that we
can try and learn from it? Can or can we
try and take pressure off? Can we increase repertoire for
(22:08):
behaviors that are not penis focused? Can we expand the
definition of sex? I encourage a lot of these couples
to engage in mutual masturbation, to start learning about how
each other self pleasures, so that now we can take
that knowledge back into partnered sex. Yes, because I've heard
a lot of women talk about how they can't have
(22:32):
orgasms with their husband, but they can alone with a
vibrator or and so's it seems to me the problems
occur when everybody's basically getting themselves off, but they're not
doing it together. And particularly as we age, you know,
the sexual function you know, gets challenged by our aging bodies.
(22:52):
And so again, can we now start to look at
what do we get out of sex that maybe we
don't have to have an orgasm together, but we get
the cuddling, we get the connection, we get the physical touch,
we get the acceptance and the affirmation, and we start
valuing all of those things and we become less goal focused,
(23:14):
right for the sex. That's an important thing. Now. One
thing that came to mind just now as you talked
about the women with their vibrators. This one husband read
my book Ethical Porn for Dicks, and he came to
me and he said, I get it now. He said,
porn is a tool for increasing arousal, just like my
(23:35):
wife's vibrator is a tool for increasing her arousal. And
research actually supports that is that when people, particularly men,
watch pornography, they're much more likely to have a more
powerful orgasm to get aroused again and have a stronger
erection than when they are fantasizing without pornography. So now,
(23:57):
nobody's ever really done a comparison between mean people masturbating
watching pornography versus sex, although there is interesting research that
shows that men who watch pornography more actually get more
aroused with their partner and watching pornography and masturbation frequency,
(24:19):
it's not like it takes something away from libido or sexuality,
but instead it oftentimes is an indicator of a higher
level of sexual interest in libido. So, you know, there's
this idea that if you masturbate, then you're taking something
away from the sexual connection of the relationship outside the
(24:41):
refractory period of maybe an hour or thirty minutes, that
doesn't appear to be true. So when there is dysfunction
which is based in an emotional or deeply psychological way,
is the only way out to have therapy and to
(25:02):
dig into that stuff, not necessarily. And so you know,
there's research in Canada where they looked at people longitudinally
over about a four or five year period of time
and found that people who identified as sex addicts or
porn addicts were generally ninety percent likely to not identify
(25:25):
that way within a year's time without having gotten treatment
or therapy. What that message is to me is that
oftentimes sex related problems are kind of like an adjustment disorder.
That people are struggling with something in their life, maybe divorce,
(25:45):
maybe relationship problems, maybe stress at work, and they are
trying desperately to feel better and they're using sex to
try to feel better. As their life changes in some
of those life problems get better. Oftentimes some of those
problems will go away and the sex stops being a problem.
(26:06):
There are some issues though, erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, an orgasmia,
that those are anatomical or physical. These well, we really
struggle at this point to know how much of those
issues are physical versus psychological. Typically it's a mix of both.
(26:27):
You know, people men who struggle to restrain orgasm or
to have orgasm when they want, you know, premature or
delayed ejaculation. There is a very significant physical and genetic
component to that. We can improve it to a degree
with psychological treatment, but oftentimes we can't fix it entirely
(26:48):
because of the physical components. Now there are some medications
that we can also add in to help with those things.
So we have to address these issues, all of them.
We are embodied people, and sexuality is both body and mind,
and we have to go at it in that way.
And having a good sex therapist who doesn't engage in
(27:10):
shame and who is educated about the wide diversity of
normal can help us identify how our mind is contributing
to these problems and maybe give us some strategies to
explore to pull those problems away. And if you introduce
pornography into your love making, isn't there a fear that
(27:34):
you cannot then go back to having sex without the pornography.
I mean, if it's so if it's so much better,
how do you ever then kind of go back and say,
oh shit, we're in this hotel and they don't have
moren what are we going to do? You know, sexuality
is really resilient, and I think that one of the
things I worry about and a lot of the social
(27:56):
dialogue about sexuality is that we act as though it
can get broken really easily. And generally sex is responsive
and able to absorb these kinds of different things. The
pornography just like a sex toy, just like a vibrator,
just like lingerie, just like you know, chocolate and strawberries
(28:20):
can be something that couples can enjoy as a part
of their sexuality. And typically I don't see couples where
it takes over. Now, I do see couples where one
partner becomes demanding, becomes kind of bossy and resentful if
(28:42):
they can't have you know, pornography present. That's not a
problem of the pornography. That's a problem of this person
and their relationship style. And rather than talking about the pornography,
I want to talk about why are they struggling to
be empathic for their partners' needs and how can we
(29:03):
increase compassion, empathy and communication about needs. I'm curious about
something you just said because I've never quite understood the
chocolate strawberry food addition to sex, because I've never tried it.
But I don't. I don't like to mix. You don't
like it secks, Yeah, I just never I never quite
(29:26):
got it. I understand the feathers and the lingerie, it's
the food. I'm not excited about it. It is a
sensuous pleasure. It is again one of the aspects of
our physical life where we can feel pleasure. You know,
there's a reason why Kellogg's corn flakes was invented. It
(29:48):
was invented as a bland food that wouldn't trigger people
to be overly focused on physical pleasure that would lead
them to masturbate or want to have sex. Kellogg was
against masturbation and believed that if people enjoyed physical pleasures
too much that it would take them over. This is true,
(30:11):
This is it. Yeah, totally true. This is yeah. Kellex
cornflakes and Graham crackers now and Graham who invented Graham crackers,
believe the same thing. But um didn't anticipate s'mores because
if you you know, if you bring chocolate and chocolate
again and marshmallows, you know, Graham crackers are pretty sell.
By the way, I will take us some more over
sex any day of the week. So that they failed
(30:32):
that way, So yes, so people can by bringing those
sensual pleasures into sex. It gets to what I was
talking about a moment ago, trying to expand our definition
of sex. And though as we age, can we pull
away from sex has to be penis and vagina penetration
(30:53):
to you know, tell orgasm, and can we start expanding
it to include other aspects of connected pleasure And for
some people bringing food in now, some people are really
into it, and they engage in what they call splashing,
which is like throwing food at each other or having
(31:13):
having sex or sex play like in a baby pool
filled with food, but you use the baby pool so
you don't make a mess, and then you go get
in the shower. I got a lot to talk to
my husband about. Okay, that's so, that's a thing. It's
a thing, and it's not a thing for everybody, but
it's a thing for some people. And if they do
(31:35):
it in a healthy way, if they do it with
consent and honesty and shared values and without exploitation or
negative pressure, it's healthy. And I think that's one of
the things that sex therapists have really progressed on in
the past decade or two is recognizing that just because
I wouldn't do something doesn't mean it's unhealthy. I mean
(31:57):
that was the That was Kinsey's definition of an infamaniac
an anybody who has more sex than the therapist. Now
we recognize that about fifty percent of people have sexual
fantasies or interests that we used to think were unhealthy
or abnormal or aberrantn't We didn't know it was that
(32:19):
many because they knew we thought there was something wrong
with them, so they kept their mouth shut. Right now
we're finding out through the Internet and through pronography, we're
actually learning a lot of things about people's secret sexuality
through chronography use that we never knew before, and is
because we're taking away some of that secret chain. It's
(32:41):
interesting to look at our country historically. And I was
thinking earlier when we were talking about you know, people
have fetishes, people introduced things into their relationships that work
for them. In the seventies, you know, key parties were
such a big part of a portion of our culture.
And I'm just curious with your research. It doesn't really
(33:04):
work to add a third person in, does it. You know,
I know many non monogamous, very healthy, long lived couples
that explore sexuality with other people, whether together or apart,
and are able to make that work. Now, it's again,
(33:24):
not all couples are the same. It works for some people,
that doesn't work for others. People that you know, are
more neurotic, people that have greater levels of insecurity or
jealousy are less likely to be able to make that work.
People with greater openness to experience, people with greater emotional
stability and better communication skills are able to make that work.
(33:46):
My first book actually is about couples that brought other
men into the relationship to have sex with the wife.
And I got to tell you, my first reaction when
I met those couples was kind of like yours. Oh,
this can't work. And then I sat down and I
talked to these couples, and I found out that many
of them had been making it work for twenty or
thirty years, and it brought excitement and energy to the marriage.
(34:11):
For some of the men, it took some pressure off
for them to satisfy their wife. For some of the women,
it became a really interesting kind of place of empowerment
where the women were able to now express and embrace
their sexuality in a new and kind of novel way
that they'd never been allowed to before. Wow. I mean,
(34:32):
because you never hear, or you rarely hear about, you know,
a woman and her being allowed to have multiple partners.
You know, usually it's the other way around, and it's
some weird cult and you know they're all brainwashed women
that you know, well, we saw it with Jerry Foldball Junior, yes, recently. Yeah,
And you know, and that actually gets to the point
(34:53):
I was making. I Mean, one of the things that
I found super interesting as I watched that documentary was that,
you know, Becky had Jerry was basically her only relationship
she started dating in when she was a teenager, and
you know, it is at least a hypothesis that we
can explore is that exploring sex with other men, including
(35:14):
the poolboy, was a way for her to explore something
that she missed by getting into a monogamous relationship so early.
Would you say it kept the relationship together, That maybe
if she wasn't able to explore that, she would go
off and be unfaithful unbeknownst to her husband. Possibly that
(35:35):
is one of the things that you know, And I
differ somewhat from some sex therapist who say, you know,
opening a relationship in response to infidelity or to save
a relationship never works. But I've seen I've seen couples
where it did work. I've seen couples where infidelity got
exposed and now it led them to talk about some
(35:56):
of the things that had been missing in the relationship
and in themselves, and for some of them, exploring non
monogamy became a way to a strategy to fill some
of those needs. And it's time for a short break.
(36:22):
Welcome back to go. Ask Alli talk to me about
orgasmic meditation, which I just like to say, yeah, oh yeah,
don't be all I mean on Yeah. So, orgasmic meditation
is an interesting kind of thing that popped up and
it was kind of cult related a few years ago.
(36:45):
And it's an interesting practice where a female lies prone
and a partner wearing a glove and using lube, engages
in kind of ritualized, very very stylized manual stimuli of
the of the female's clarists for a period of time.
And the point is not so much achieving orgasm, but
(37:06):
orgasm is oftentimes a component of it. For many women
that that practiced it, it became a way for them
to connect with their sexual pleasure in a way that
many of them had never had before. And you know,
one of the one of the things I see that's
just super sad is women coming into my office who
(37:26):
you know, have just been taught to be ashamed of
their sexuality, of their genitals, of their orgasm um, and
they've never achieved sexual pleasure. It makes them feel so guilty,
and so things practices like orgasmic me meditation are a
way to for women to connect with that and to
(37:48):
connect with their partner doing it. So there's been research
looking at it and finding that it increases sexual pleasure,
it increases orgasm connection or ability. The partner who is
giving has to learn how to control themselves. Right, it's
not about them. They have to restrain their desire to
(38:13):
know jump in and make it about them and focus
on their partner's pleasure. And that give and take and
the focus on female pleasure I think is really remarkable. Now,
there was some some unhealthy things about the group, some
of the groups that were doing orgasmic meditation, and it
turned into pressure and some exploitation, but there are definitely
(38:36):
some valuable things that came out of that, right, And
the other thing I'm really curious about is Hypersexual Behavioral Inventory.
So the HBI, the hyper Sexual Behavior Inventory, was created
by a colleague of mine, Rory Reid, as a PhD
at UCLA, and it's nineteen items that assess a range
(39:00):
of sexual behaviors, not just pornography viewing, and it helps
to identify people who are having problems as a result
of their behaviors. And that's an important thing to note
because many there are many people out there who have
lots of sex and have no problems at Gay men
(39:22):
and swingers have more sex than sex addicts ever dreamed
of having, but they don't have problems because they've integrated
into their lives and it's part of it's part of
their culture, so that it's not creating a conflict and
there's not a lot of shame, probably right, exactly exactly,
And a lot of this goes back to shame. A
(39:43):
lot of the problems related to sexual behavior come out
of shame and guilt and conflict between what we think
we're supposed to be versus what our body and libido wants.
The HBI is a good way of assessing the level
of that. Now, there used to be these these tests,
the Sex Addiction Screening Test and stuff like that. Basically,
(40:06):
if you took the test and you've ever masturbated or
had a sex fantasy that you felt a little bit
of shame about, you came up as a sex addict
on the HBI. It's actually normed on a general population,
and so doctor Reid keeps adjusting the scoring because he's
identified that there's a lot of people out there that
(40:28):
engage in a lot of sex and that sometimes feeling
guilty or having sex problems doesn't automatically make you unhealthy.
And so that that's the most important thing I think
in research around this is we have to recognize we
are still learning what normal sex is because it's been
so secret and so ashamed for so long. Oh well,
(40:50):
I would say, on the other hand, too, addressing a
lot of what we've talked about before, addressing sexual dysfunction,
or even going so far as to you know, some
of the criminal things about sexuality and predators, and you know,
there's a lot of psychology to mind there, and we
have a tendency just to say this is bad, put
(41:14):
them away, or I'm bad. So I'm you know, I'm
not going to allow my sexual being to be present
in the world at all. Right, So what ways can
can pornography be helpful in a relationship? Is it pure arousalum? No,
I don't think so. Actually, for instance, people that watch
(41:36):
pornography tend to become more egalitarian over time, tend to
become less religious, and tend to be more aware of
and supportive of female pleasure. So watching pornography can expose
people to a wide diversity of sexual fantasies and behaviors,
(41:57):
even things that don't turn you on. And that's one
of the things that we see as people start to
watch pornography is they become more accepting of behaviors that
they themselves don't find arousing watching pornography together for a couple.
One of the most positive things is that it injects
(42:18):
novelty and sexual novelty into the relationship. Oh hey, let's
try that thing that we just saw on the pornography
because that looked kind of exciting and kind of interesting.
Now we saw that with fifty Shades of Gray that
you know. The enormous popularity of that book in that
movie led to many many women going to their boyfriends
(42:43):
or husbands and saying, hey, I kind of want to
try this because I got really turned on reading this book.
Pornography is the same thing. Erotica is really pornography for
women and does kind of the same thing. Increases arousal
and injects kind of novelty and new ideas just asking
(43:03):
for a friend. I think a lot of women's aversion
to pornography is that the things we talked about before,
but also it's stuff being done to them. Is there
a niche in the pornography world that is empowering pornography
for women specifically, so it's not just a niche. I mean.
(43:24):
One of the things that a lot of people don't
actually understand is that the majority of pornography that's actually
made in the United States now is made by independent
female performers who are producing their own content. Pink and
White Production and Afterglow are two that I've had communications
with and seeing their material, and they've participated in trainings
(43:47):
that I do that our female lad and producing content
with an eye towards female sexual arousal. And this isn't
kind of the nineteen seventies and eighties, you know, soft porn.
It's still pretty hard porn. But a woman who's watching
it can rest assured that everybody that's in it is
(44:07):
consenting to be there, that they are not engaging in
behaviors they don't want to engage in. And the material
is produced in a way that focuses on a bit
more realistic connection and arousal kind of practices. You know,
it's not performative. And does it start with the men
(44:28):
doing the dishes and the laundry because in a little
made outfit, yeah, yeah, and then they're submissive. I mean
that to me would probably make billions of dollars before
we go as you know, I feel like I don't
feel like it. I do. I ask a lot of
(44:50):
questions on my podcast because it's like a masterclass for me.
And it's always stuff that I'm just fascinated by and
interested in. But I always allow my guests to ask
me a question, ask me anything you want. So, you know,
I did some googling alley and I saw that Yeah yeah,
oh yeah, oh yeah you got you got a Google
and I saw it. Back in nineteen when you actually
(45:12):
talked about pornography and you said that you would watch
pornography with your kids to help them talk with you
about sex and what real sex is. Did that ever
happen and what was that like? Ah? Yes, you know,
I got a lot of backlash for that comment, and
(45:33):
it was actually taken out of context. I was talking
about educating our teens when it came to pornography, and
I made a comment about I think about if I
had a teenage boy, I might if you wanted to
show me what he was watching, I would be able
to talk about it. But to answer your question, no,
(45:53):
I never watched pornography with my daughters. That's a shame.
I you know, I thought it was such a healthy statement.
I'm sorry you got backlash. There's a researcher, Emily Rothman
in Boston who teaches porn literacy and actually has evidence
based research supporting that by teaching young people about what
porn is and isn't, we can take away many of
(46:17):
the problems that porn might cause. So I thought you
I thought your statement was brilliant, and I'm sad. I'm
sad you got the hit. What I was saying was
I think our teenagers, because pornography is so pervasive, need
to be educated. I think with girls there's one kind
of education, but I do think with boys it's it's
(46:37):
at a much younger age. Because they're all watching porn.
We have to really help them understand what true intimacy
looks like, what kind of pornography, particularly the dark and
very illegal stuff. Kids that are already precociously sexual, kids
that are already interested in sad tend to be the
(47:01):
ones who seek out pornography at earlier ages. Most of
the problems of pornography on adolescents would be addressed and
mitigated with effective sex education. But we get so focused
talking about pornography and the negative messages that kids are
learning from it that we kind of forget we need
(47:22):
to put healthy messages out there. If we don't want
the negative messages to stick Yeah, I completely agree. I
mean you think about you know, and night. Again, if
I were a teenage boy and sex ed was like
the penis goes in the vagina, it throws up, and
a baby's made, and then I discovered pornography. I mean,
come on, there's no comparison. So I agree with you.
(47:43):
I think the sex education or country could be amped
up a lot more, just to show them what real
women look like when they're naked and what real sexual,
healthy relationships look like. So again that was sadly taken
out of context, but what I was really saying was
how important it is to educate our teens about pornography.
(48:08):
But you still open the door. Yeah, and I do
feel like I've educated them another way exactly. And kids
that can talk with their parents about sexuality are much
more likely to have healthy sexuality as adults. Yeah. I
want to help people be healthy and have healthy sex.
I love that. Well, that's your bumper sticker. Thank you,
(48:28):
thank you, thank you, thank you. This was fascinating. So
I thank you so much for talking to me about this,
Thanks for having me, thank you, thank you for doing this.
I mean, one of the things that I see is
that these kinds of conversations help all of the listeners
to address the issues of shame and sexuality stigma in
their life. So you're changing the world by having these conversations. Wow,
(48:55):
human sexuality will continue to boggle my mind. But so
many great insights, so interesting to me because I have
such rigid ideas about pornography and have been fascinated for
a long time about how it is incorporated into a
monogamous couple. So lots of eye opening for me. And
also he's got an array of great books to read
(49:18):
if you'd like to know more, and you can find
him on Instagram at David lay PhD. And thank you
all for listening to Go Ask Alli, and for more
information on what you've heard in this episode, check out
our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review.
Go ask Alli and follow me on social media on
Instagram at the Real Alli Wentworth. And Now, if you'd
(49:39):
like to ask me a question or suggest a guest
or a topic to dig into, I'd love to hear
from you, and there's a bunch of ways you can
do it. You can call or text me at three
two three three six four six three five six, or
you can email a voice memo right from your phone
to Go Ask Alli podcast at gmail dot com and
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and go ask Alli. Go Ask Gali is a production
(50:05):
of Shondaland Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio. When I have been with
friends and that happened and I peed my pants, I
did lose the room. They did leave. I saw her
light up and I was like, I'm just going to work.
But we are here until one of our last rips. Yeah.
I was just the one that was meant to take
(00:22):
care of mamma. It's for me to remember every single
day is that I always have a choice. Everyone always
has a choice. Whenever somebody says no, you can't, or
there's no roles for you, or you have to look
like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll show you.
(00:42):
Welcome to Go ask Ally. I'm Allie Wentworth. So this
is a very tricky subject, the subject of pornography. And
to be very honest with you, I don't watch pornography.
I never have. It's not something that I look for
in my life. I have issues with it, particularly about
(01:03):
the subjucation of women and my fear that it damages intimacy.
And I call it a friend of mine recently and
I said, is everybody watching pornography? I mean, I've been
married for twenty one years and I haven't, and she said, oh, Ali, listen.
First of all, pornography is pervasive, so you better get
(01:24):
used to it. So I decided I need to delve
into the subject a little bit because I am curious
and I do want to learn. So for the sake
of this podcast, the pornography we are discussing in this
episode is ethical pornography people who want to be there,
(01:45):
and I also want to know personally does pornography affect
long term monogamous relationships? After all, it's a huge part
of our culture, and there's nobody better to talk to.
The doctor David Lay. He's a clinical psychologist, sex therapist,
and author. He's written several books and research articles on sexuality,
(02:09):
sex addiction, and pornography, including The Myth of Sex Addiction
and Ethical porn for Dicks, A Man's Guide to Responsible
Viewing Pleasure. Doctor Lay is a frequent guest in media,
on television with Anderson Cooper, Katie Currek, Doctor Phil and others,
and in print including The New York Times, CNN, and
Time and Playboy magazines and now on Go Ask Galli
(02:31):
the podcast. Well, first of all, thank you for being here,
Doctor David Lay. Thank you for having they should be
a fun chet Yeah. So you know, you've written such
incredible books. And one of the things I was very
cognizant of was when I started this podcast, there are
so many different directions I can go in. And I
(02:53):
realized recently as I was talking to women kind of
my age let's say middle age, but let's just say
forty and people women particularly, we're having the same conversations
with me, which basically were is pornography okay in a
(03:15):
long term monogamous relationship? And the interesting thing is when
I talk to women, the majority of the women say
it's not okay, I'm uncomfortable with it, blah blah blah.
The men say, I see it as something completely different.
I can compartmentalize it doesn't affect my relationship. And every
one of my gay male friends says it's totally fine.
(03:37):
It's part of our relationship. So I'm curious. Does pornography
affect monogamous relationships? Kennet. It's a good question, Allie. At first,
I think we have to acknowledge not all couples are
the same as you. As you identified. We see this
(03:57):
popping up for heterosexual couples. We don't see pornography being
a problem or a conflict in LGBT couples. We also,
interestingly don't see it as a problem in non monogamous couples.
Non monogamous couples tend to use pornography more than monogamous
couples and don't have any problems or consequences related to
(04:19):
it for the most part. When we look at heterosexual couples,
one of the things that we do find is that
a hetero couple that watches porn together tend to have
a healthier relationship, have more sex, have more novel sex,
and have a healthier sexual relationship. Couples where one partner
(04:39):
views pornography in a negative way, couples where one at
least one partner has moral concerns about pornography are likely
to have conflicts over pornography, so the pornography represents moral
attitudes about sex. One of the things that I see
when I work with couples where there is a conflict
(05:02):
about pornography is that oftentimes one partner has the idea
that watching pornography is a form of infidelity, that watching
pornography is somehow demeaning to them or to others. Or
that watching pornography creates a competition with the primary partner,
such that one partner might feel like, well, you're watching
(05:25):
people that look different than me or are more attractive
than me, and so you're not attracted to me anymore. Well,
one of the things I hear from women over and
over again is what am I not enough? That is
the number one thing I hear over and over. Am
I not enough? Why does he or she need to
go outside the relationship for arousal And I can't possibly
(05:49):
compete with that idealized version of a sexual partner exactly.
And one of the challenges is that couples are oftentimes
not talking about that. Those attitudes or feelings are there,
but the couple isn't sitting down and having a conversation
about their attitudes about sex and masturbation. And that's also
(06:10):
one of those super important things, because oftentimes couples will
fight over pornography when actually what they're fighting over is masturbation,
and most pornography is accompanied by masturbation, but we oftentimes
forget to talk about that now. And I think it's
important because one of the things that we see, particularly
(06:32):
in heterosexual couples that have been together for a while
and are monogamous. Is that as sex frequency goes down
in men especially and in women to a degree, masturbation
and porn consumption goes up. So people are using pornography
and masturbation as a way to compensate for the couple
(06:52):
not having as much sex as they would really like
to have. That conversation oftentimes doesn't happen. I'm wondering too,
because I'm you know again, I'm talking about a monogamous
relationship that has been going on for a while. And
I wonder too with women my age, like in perimenopause
and menopause, their libido goes way down, so they're already
(07:16):
feeling insufficient, and then I would imagine their husband or
their spouses or their partners porn watching and masturbation goes up,
and so you then have this inequality of kind of
sexual activity that I would imagine causes a lot of problems.
(07:37):
It certainly can, as again, especially when that resentment or
conflict is there and people aren't talking about it. Now,
I will say, we don't teach people how to talk
about this stuff. I mean, we don't teach people even
somebody you've been married to for fifteen or twenty years,
we don't teach people to talk about masturbation. Now again
(08:00):
when we refocus this on masturbation, and I think that's
an important piece because back in twenty seventeen, a colleague
of mine, Sam Perry, he's a sociologist in Oklahoma, he
published data that showed at the time that pornography used
predicted future divorce. Now, Sam went back and reanalyzed the
(08:23):
data a little later when he heard from folks like me,
and interestingly, he found that actually, when you separate out
the variance related to masturbation, that pornography used actually was
neutral to slightly positive for a relationship, but masturbation frequency
(08:44):
predicted future relationship problems. Now, it's not that masturbation is
bad for a marriage, but masturbation increases can reflect a
desired discrepancy, can reflect sexual mismatch that isn't getting talked
about in the relationship. That and it's a symptom of
other issues. When I see couples in my office, and
(09:06):
I see a lot of them that are struggling with pornography,
it is always the canary in the coal mine. There
are other issues and problems that don't relate to the pornography,
but the pornography is a symptom of it. So, for instance,
you know, one partner might have a sexual interest that
the other partner doesn't share and actually shames the one
(09:29):
partner for having an interest in, whether it's pornography or
fetish behavior or BDSM or any other kind of behavior.
So the partner goes to pornography to experience that kind
of arousal and stimulation in a way they can't get
with their partner because of the conflict and the undisclosed
(09:49):
or unresolved kind of mismatch. I mean, you've talked about
symptoms of pornography and masturbation being abandonment and rejection. I mean,
do you have to and if you did really go
into deep therapy about the underlying issues, would that somehow
change their pornography viewing if you really got to the
(10:12):
root of it. I've seen that happen. Definitely. When we
can get the couple to talk about the fears, the emotions,
the thoughts that they are having about this issue, then
we can start addressing those real issues. Unfortunately, pornography is
(10:34):
a it's a sexy, shiny object that distracts us from
dealing with those real underlying conflicts. And I think that's
so important because you know, if the husband, and unfortunately
this often is a male female kind of dynamic, if
the husband doesn't really understand the degree to which his
(10:57):
wife feels threatened by the women in porn, then he
can't do the work to let her know how attractive
he thinks she is, how attracted he is still to her,
and that she is somebody he lust after still after
fifteen years of marriage. So explain the sexual shiny object
(11:19):
syndrome exactly. So whenever, whenever sex is present and porn
is a big, sexy, shining object, we get distracted by
that and we chase it like a rabbit down a
hole and blame lots and lots of problems on that
(11:39):
instead of addressing again all these underlying kind of problems. Now,
both men and women use pornography viewing as a way
to deal with negative emotions. Men in particular used pornography
and masturbation of pornography as a way to kind of
turn off anxiety because it is a very effective strategy
(12:00):
for that. Well, how is it effective for anxiety? Evolutionarily?
You know, we were built as a species that made
it at any opportunity, and if we were nervous about
that saber tooth tiger getting us, you would jerk off, Well,
you wouldn't. You wouldn't jerk off, you wouldn't masturbate. And
(12:23):
so sexual arousal turns off anxiety. It turned you know,
changes some of the function in our brain um so
that we are more focused on pleasure. Pleasure feels better.
It puts away you know, our discussed our even our
our tendency to feel discussed for something goes down when
(12:44):
we're sexually aroused, and then unfortunately oftentimes it comes back
after our orgasm, and then people start feeling discussed even
at the thing, at what they were fantasizing about or watching.
How does that differ for women? Women have more effective
and varied coping strategies to deal with negative emotions. You know,
(13:04):
women from from an early age or taught to express, acknowledge, identify,
and cope with negative emotions. Guys a lot of times
in my office, sitting on my couch, guys don't even
have very good ability to name the negative emotions that
they're feeling, so they oftentimes don't practice many skills to
(13:27):
deal with negative emotions and because watching pornography is a
great way to turn off the depression or the anxiety
and not worry about those things. Right, then guys can
oftentimes overuse it. Now, if if that is going on
in a relationship and we don't deal with it, we
(13:48):
don't we don't help the guy learn other coping strategies
to deal with those negative emotions. Then oftentimes what happens
is we are trying to take away some of they's
only coping strategies for bad feelings, and that can actually
backlash and increase, right, increase anxiety and depression because now
(14:10):
he is feeling sad or depressed or worried and he
can't go to those things to feel better. Again, if
we don't deal with those underlying issues for the man
and the couple and we just focus on the pornography,
we're missing the point, right. Um, But it is possible
for both partners to feel arousal at the same time
(14:35):
with pornography. Yeah, oftentimes, Um, that is one of the
that that that's one of the strategies when couples watch
porn together. Now, I think and in my third book
about Responsible porn Use for Men, which is a great
title by the way, thank you, um ethical dicks for
(14:56):
all those guys named Richard who liked to watch porn
um and and even just the idea that there is
a thing called ethical pornography is oftentimes a challenge for
people because they think that all pornography is inherently exploitive
and if we if we then start to that is
one of the things that oftentimes women fear about pornography
(15:19):
is that women are being exploited in it, that they
can't watch it ethically or safely. And I like to say, hey,
there's fair trade born out there, just like fair trade coffee,
where you don't have to feel guilty. Yeah, I'm trying
to be more open minded about it, particularly when it
comes to couples and how it relates to a relationship.
(15:42):
There's a lot more to come after the short break
and we're back. I just want to want to ask
you right here about the men of sex addiction, because
you've got very specific views about it, and one has
(16:07):
a tendency in much of what I've read, particularly women,
that when men use a lot of pornography, they are
labeled as sex addicts, and that's not always true true,
And I'm on record for really challenging the whole concept
of sex addiction again because it distracts us from dealing with,
oftentimes the real issues. So the research actually today, over
(16:31):
the past seven years or so, has found that there
are roughly two things that predominantly predict whether a male
is going to identify as a porn addict. One is
whether he was raised religious or not. Two now is
whether he is highly narcissistic. And the religious conflict is
(16:54):
coming from the fact that these are men who believe
that pornography and masturbation immoral, and then they engage in
that behavior, and then they feel bad for engaging in
the behavior. The problem is not the pornography. The problem
is engaging in a behavior that you disagree with and
not ever examining or addressing or dealing with that internal conflict.
(17:19):
The narcissism is a new finding that is popping up
in research just recently, and narcissists and narcissistic males oftentimes
engage in more selfish, exploitive sexual behavior, and when they
are having conflict about it, they're much less likely to
take personal responsibility for it and instead blame somebody or
(17:42):
something else like pornography, which is why you see so
many celebrities in the past, that's right, who have been
you know, incredibly unfaithful and a bit of a player
or a dog, and all of a sudden they're like,
I'm a sex addict, I'm going to rehab, I'll be
back in three months and all is forgiven. And yeah,
do they address it and rehab sex addiction summer camp. No,
(18:06):
they don't address it there. Instead they do things like
ride horses and you know, engage in really unsupported kind
of therapy. It's really important to know that. You know,
after forty years of the sex addiction model existing, there's
no data showing that that treatment works. There's there's no
(18:26):
evidence that sex addiction treatment is effective at addressing any
of these problems. Instead, what does work for people that
are struggling with pornography is cognitive behavioral therapy or what's
called acceptance and commitment therapy. These are both strategies that
don't try to stop the behavior, but instead try to
address and explore the function and the meaning of the behavior.
(18:50):
That again is I think the thing that gets lost
when we overfocus on the sexual behavior. We stop recognizing
that this is a behavior that's occurred in a person,
and in a relationship, and in a personal history of
sexual attitudes and morality, and to understand that sexual behavior,
(19:11):
we have to understand all of those things. Is there
a theme that you have seen a lot in your
work when it comes to pornography and couples, They recurring theme.
I should say largely what you really described early on
is that the wife oftentimes has concerns about what the
(19:31):
pornography use means, and the couple isn't talking about it
oftentimes because the husband is ashamed. Now, I do see
men who don't want to pressure their wife for sex.
They know that she's not feeling particularly into it, and
they're going to feel guilty if they keep hounding her
(19:52):
to have sex, So they masturbate to porn as an experience,
as a release, so that they don't have to feel
like they're pressure on her. So it's interesting that there's empathy.
They're motivating these behaviors for the husbands, so they feel
worse about sort of asking their wife for sex more
(20:14):
than feeling bad about watching pornography. Oftentimes, Yeah, because because
they know the wife feels pressured and they don't want
to be that guy. Yeah, that can't feel good. Sexually
either when you know your partner's not into it. Yeah. Yeah. Now.
The one of the other things that we are seeing
in recent research and clinically is that men who experience
(20:38):
any form of sexual dysfunction, whether it's premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation,
or a rectile dysfunction, are fifty percent more likely to
experience symptoms of that dysfunction when they are attempting to
have partnered sex and not during masturbation. So the wife
can get upset and say, well, you don't have problems
(21:01):
with your sexual function when you're masturbating watching porn, but
when you try and have sex with me, these problems
are coming up and you can't get hard. Is there
something wrong with me? Or did porn do this? But
the problem is the sexual dysfunction, And again the problem
oftentimes is anxiety. It is much easier to relax, watch
(21:25):
pornography and masturbate. You don't have to buy the internet dinner,
you don't have to try and find its clitterus, you
don't have to worry about giving the Internet an orgasm.
But when we're with a partner, you know, we do
have to be mindful, We do have to be thoughtful
and pay attention to our partner's needs. And for men
that are dealing with sexual dysfunction and have anxiety, that
(21:47):
is a recipe for struggle. So one of the things
that I do with those kinds of couples is, hey,
let's look at the differences between watching pornography and masturbating
versus partnered sex. Now, what are some things that we
can try and learn from it? Can or can we
try and take pressure off? Can we increase repertoire for
(22:08):
behaviors that are not penis focused? Can we expand the
definition of sex? I encourage a lot of these couples
to engage in mutual masturbation, to start learning about how
each other self pleasures, so that now we can take
that knowledge back into partnered sex. Yes, because I've heard
a lot of women talk about how they can't have
(22:32):
orgasms with their husband, but they can alone with a
vibrator or and so's it seems to me the problems
occur when everybody's basically getting themselves off, but they're not
doing it together. And particularly as we age, you know,
the sexual function you know, gets challenged by our aging bodies.
(22:52):
And so again, can we now start to look at
what do we get out of sex that maybe we
don't have to have an orgasm together, but we get
the cuddling, we get the connection, we get the physical touch,
we get the acceptance and the affirmation, and we start
valuing all of those things and we become less goal focused,
(23:14):
right for the sex. That's an important thing. Now. One
thing that came to mind just now as you talked
about the women with their vibrators. This one husband read
my book Ethical Porn for Dicks, and he came to
me and he said, I get it now. He said,
porn is a tool for increasing arousal, just like my
(23:35):
wife's vibrator is a tool for increasing her arousal. And
research actually supports that is that when people, particularly men,
watch pornography, they're much more likely to have a more
powerful orgasm to get aroused again and have a stronger
erection than when they are fantasizing without pornography. So now,
(23:57):
nobody's ever really done a comparison between mean people masturbating
watching pornography versus sex, although there is interesting research that
shows that men who watch pornography more actually get more
aroused with their partner and watching pornography and masturbation frequency,
(24:19):
it's not like it takes something away from libido or sexuality,
but instead it oftentimes is an indicator of a higher
level of sexual interest in libido. So, you know, there's
this idea that if you masturbate, then you're taking something
away from the sexual connection of the relationship outside the
(24:41):
refractory period of maybe an hour or thirty minutes, that
doesn't appear to be true. So when there is dysfunction
which is based in an emotional or deeply psychological way,
is the only way out to have therapy and to
(25:02):
dig into that stuff, not necessarily. And so you know,
there's research in Canada where they looked at people longitudinally
over about a four or five year period of time
and found that people who identified as sex addicts or
porn addicts were generally ninety percent likely to not identify
(25:25):
that way within a year's time without having gotten treatment
or therapy. What that message is to me is that
oftentimes sex related problems are kind of like an adjustment disorder.
That people are struggling with something in their life, maybe divorce,
(25:45):
maybe relationship problems, maybe stress at work, and they are
trying desperately to feel better and they're using sex to
try to feel better. As their life changes in some
of those life problems get better. Oftentimes some of those
problems will go away and the sex stops being a problem.
(26:06):
There are some issues though, erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, an orgasmia,
that those are anatomical or physical. These well, we really
struggle at this point to know how much of those
issues are physical versus psychological. Typically it's a mix of both.
(26:27):
You know, people men who struggle to restrain orgasm or
to have orgasm when they want, you know, premature or
delayed ejaculation. There is a very significant physical and genetic
component to that. We can improve it to a degree
with psychological treatment, but oftentimes we can't fix it entirely
(26:48):
because of the physical components. Now there are some medications
that we can also add in to help with those things.
So we have to address these issues, all of them.
We are embodied people, and sexuality is both body and mind,
and we have to go at it in that way.
And having a good sex therapist who doesn't engage in
(27:10):
shame and who is educated about the wide diversity of
normal can help us identify how our mind is contributing
to these problems and maybe give us some strategies to
explore to pull those problems away. And if you introduce
pornography into your love making, isn't there a fear that
(27:34):
you cannot then go back to having sex without the pornography.
I mean, if it's so if it's so much better,
how do you ever then kind of go back and say,
oh shit, we're in this hotel and they don't have
moren what are we going to do? You know, sexuality
is really resilient, and I think that one of the
things I worry about and a lot of the social
(27:56):
dialogue about sexuality is that we act as though it
can get broken really easily. And generally sex is responsive
and able to absorb these kinds of different things. The
pornography just like a sex toy, just like a vibrator,
just like lingerie, just like you know, chocolate and strawberries
(28:20):
can be something that couples can enjoy as a part
of their sexuality. And typically I don't see couples where
it takes over. Now, I do see couples where one
partner becomes demanding, becomes kind of bossy and resentful if
(28:42):
they can't have you know, pornography present. That's not a
problem of the pornography. That's a problem of this person
and their relationship style. And rather than talking about the pornography,
I want to talk about why are they struggling to
be empathic for their partners' needs and how can we
(29:03):
increase compassion, empathy and communication about needs. I'm curious about
something you just said because I've never quite understood the
chocolate strawberry food addition to sex, because I've never tried it.
But I don't. I don't like to mix. You don't
like it secks, Yeah, I just never I never quite
(29:26):
got it. I understand the feathers and the lingerie, it's
the food. I'm not excited about it. It is a
sensuous pleasure. It is again one of the aspects of
our physical life where we can feel pleasure. You know,
there's a reason why Kellogg's corn flakes was invented. It
(29:48):
was invented as a bland food that wouldn't trigger people
to be overly focused on physical pleasure that would lead
them to masturbate or want to have sex. Kellogg was
against masturbation and believed that if people enjoyed physical pleasures
too much that it would take them over. This is true,
(30:11):
This is it. Yeah, totally true. This is yeah. Kellex
cornflakes and Graham crackers now and Graham who invented Graham crackers,
believe the same thing. But um didn't anticipate s'mores because
if you you know, if you bring chocolate and chocolate
again and marshmallows, you know, Graham crackers are pretty sell.
By the way, I will take us some more over
sex any day of the week. So that they failed
(30:32):
that way, So yes, so people can by bringing those
sensual pleasures into sex. It gets to what I was
talking about a moment ago, trying to expand our definition
of sex. And though as we age, can we pull
away from sex has to be penis and vagina penetration
(30:53):
to you know, tell orgasm, and can we start expanding
it to include other aspects of connected pleasure And for
some people bringing food in now, some people are really
into it, and they engage in what they call splashing,
which is like throwing food at each other or having
(31:13):
having sex or sex play like in a baby pool
filled with food, but you use the baby pool so
you don't make a mess, and then you go get
in the shower. I got a lot to talk to
my husband about. Okay, that's so, that's a thing. It's
a thing, and it's not a thing for everybody, but
it's a thing for some people. And if they do
(31:35):
it in a healthy way, if they do it with
consent and honesty and shared values and without exploitation or
negative pressure, it's healthy. And I think that's one of
the things that sex therapists have really progressed on in
the past decade or two is recognizing that just because
I wouldn't do something doesn't mean it's unhealthy. I mean
(31:57):
that was the That was Kinsey's definition of an infamaniac
an anybody who has more sex than the therapist. Now
we recognize that about fifty percent of people have sexual
fantasies or interests that we used to think were unhealthy
or abnormal or aberrantn't We didn't know it was that
(32:19):
many because they knew we thought there was something wrong
with them, so they kept their mouth shut. Right now
we're finding out through the Internet and through pronography, we're
actually learning a lot of things about people's secret sexuality
through chronography use that we never knew before, and is
because we're taking away some of that secret chain. It's
(32:41):
interesting to look at our country historically. And I was
thinking earlier when we were talking about you know, people
have fetishes, people introduced things into their relationships that work
for them. In the seventies, you know, key parties were
such a big part of a portion of our culture.
And I'm just curious with your research. It doesn't really
(33:04):
work to add a third person in, does it. You know,
I know many non monogamous, very healthy, long lived couples
that explore sexuality with other people, whether together or apart,
and are able to make that work. Now, it's again,
(33:24):
not all couples are the same. It works for some people,
that doesn't work for others. People that you know, are
more neurotic, people that have greater levels of insecurity or
jealousy are less likely to be able to make that work.
People with greater openness to experience, people with greater emotional
stability and better communication skills are able to make that work.
(33:46):
My first book actually is about couples that brought other
men into the relationship to have sex with the wife.
And I got to tell you, my first reaction when
I met those couples was kind of like yours. Oh,
this can't work. And then I sat down and I
talked to these couples, and I found out that many
of them had been making it work for twenty or
thirty years, and it brought excitement and energy to the marriage.
(34:11):
For some of the men, it took some pressure off
for them to satisfy their wife. For some of the women,
it became a really interesting kind of place of empowerment
where the women were able to now express and embrace
their sexuality in a new and kind of novel way
that they'd never been allowed to before. Wow. I mean,
(34:32):
because you never hear, or you rarely hear about, you know,
a woman and her being allowed to have multiple partners.
You know, usually it's the other way around, and it's
some weird cult and you know they're all brainwashed women
that you know, well, we saw it with Jerry Foldball Junior, yes, recently. Yeah,
And you know, and that actually gets to the point
(34:53):
I was making. I Mean, one of the things that
I found super interesting as I watched that documentary was that,
you know, Becky had Jerry was basically her only relationship
she started dating in when she was a teenager, and
you know, it is at least a hypothesis that we
can explore is that exploring sex with other men, including
(35:14):
the poolboy, was a way for her to explore something
that she missed by getting into a monogamous relationship so early.
Would you say it kept the relationship together, That maybe
if she wasn't able to explore that, she would go
off and be unfaithful unbeknownst to her husband. Possibly that
(35:35):
is one of the things that you know, And I
differ somewhat from some sex therapist who say, you know,
opening a relationship in response to infidelity or to save
a relationship never works. But I've seen I've seen couples
where it did work. I've seen couples where infidelity got
exposed and now it led them to talk about some
(35:56):
of the things that had been missing in the relationship
and in themselves, and for some of them, exploring non
monogamy became a way to a strategy to fill some
of those needs. And it's time for a short break.
(36:22):
Welcome back to go. Ask Alli talk to me about
orgasmic meditation, which I just like to say, yeah, oh yeah,
don't be all I mean on Yeah. So, orgasmic meditation
is an interesting kind of thing that popped up and
it was kind of cult related a few years ago.
(36:45):
And it's an interesting practice where a female lies prone
and a partner wearing a glove and using lube, engages
in kind of ritualized, very very stylized manual stimuli of
the of the female's clarists for a period of time.
And the point is not so much achieving orgasm, but
(37:06):
orgasm is oftentimes a component of it. For many women
that that practiced it, it became a way for them
to connect with their sexual pleasure in a way that
many of them had never had before. And you know,
one of the one of the things I see that's
just super sad is women coming into my office who
(37:26):
you know, have just been taught to be ashamed of
their sexuality, of their genitals, of their orgasm um, and
they've never achieved sexual pleasure. It makes them feel so guilty,
and so things practices like orgasmic me meditation are a
way to for women to connect with that and to
(37:48):
connect with their partner doing it. So there's been research
looking at it and finding that it increases sexual pleasure,
it increases orgasm connection or ability. The partner who is
giving has to learn how to control themselves. Right, it's
not about them. They have to restrain their desire to
(38:13):
know jump in and make it about them and focus
on their partner's pleasure. And that give and take and
the focus on female pleasure I think is really remarkable. Now,
there was some some unhealthy things about the group, some
of the groups that were doing orgasmic meditation, and it
turned into pressure and some exploitation, but there are definitely
(38:36):
some valuable things that came out of that, right, And
the other thing I'm really curious about is Hypersexual Behavioral Inventory.
So the HBI, the hyper Sexual Behavior Inventory, was created
by a colleague of mine, Rory Reid, as a PhD
at UCLA, and it's nineteen items that assess a range
(39:00):
of sexual behaviors, not just pornography viewing, and it helps
to identify people who are having problems as a result
of their behaviors. And that's an important thing to note
because many there are many people out there who have
lots of sex and have no problems at Gay men
(39:22):
and swingers have more sex than sex addicts ever dreamed
of having, but they don't have problems because they've integrated
into their lives and it's part of it's part of
their culture, so that it's not creating a conflict and
there's not a lot of shame, probably right, exactly exactly,
And a lot of this goes back to shame. A
(39:43):
lot of the problems related to sexual behavior come out
of shame and guilt and conflict between what we think
we're supposed to be versus what our body and libido wants.
The HBI is a good way of assessing the level
of that. Now, there used to be these these tests,
the Sex Addiction Screening Test and stuff like that. Basically,
(40:06):
if you took the test and you've ever masturbated or
had a sex fantasy that you felt a little bit
of shame about, you came up as a sex addict
on the HBI. It's actually normed on a general population,
and so doctor Reid keeps adjusting the scoring because he's
identified that there's a lot of people out there that
(40:28):
engage in a lot of sex and that sometimes feeling
guilty or having sex problems doesn't automatically make you unhealthy.
And so that that's the most important thing I think
in research around this is we have to recognize we
are still learning what normal sex is because it's been
so secret and so ashamed for so long. Oh well,
(40:50):
I would say, on the other hand, too, addressing a
lot of what we've talked about before, addressing sexual dysfunction,
or even going so far as to you know, some
of the criminal things about sexuality and predators, and you know,
there's a lot of psychology to mind there, and we
have a tendency just to say this is bad, put
(41:14):
them away, or I'm bad. So I'm you know, I'm
not going to allow my sexual being to be present
in the world at all. Right, So what ways can
can pornography be helpful in a relationship? Is it pure arousalum? No,
I don't think so. Actually, for instance, people that watch
(41:36):
pornography tend to become more egalitarian over time, tend to
become less religious, and tend to be more aware of
and supportive of female pleasure. So watching pornography can expose
people to a wide diversity of sexual fantasies and behaviors,
(41:57):
even things that don't turn you on. And that's one
of the things that we see as people start to
watch pornography is they become more accepting of behaviors that
they themselves don't find arousing watching pornography together for a couple.
One of the most positive things is that it injects
(42:18):
novelty and sexual novelty into the relationship. Oh hey, let's
try that thing that we just saw on the pornography
because that looked kind of exciting and kind of interesting.
Now we saw that with fifty Shades of Gray that
you know. The enormous popularity of that book in that
movie led to many many women going to their boyfriends
(42:43):
or husbands and saying, hey, I kind of want to
try this because I got really turned on reading this book.
Pornography is the same thing. Erotica is really pornography for
women and does kind of the same thing. Increases arousal
and injects kind of novelty and new ideas just asking
(43:03):
for a friend. I think a lot of women's aversion
to pornography is that the things we talked about before,
but also it's stuff being done to them. Is there
a niche in the pornography world that is empowering pornography
for women specifically, so it's not just a niche. I mean.
(43:24):
One of the things that a lot of people don't
actually understand is that the majority of pornography that's actually
made in the United States now is made by independent
female performers who are producing their own content. Pink and
White Production and Afterglow are two that I've had communications
with and seeing their material, and they've participated in trainings
(43:47):
that I do that our female lad and producing content
with an eye towards female sexual arousal. And this isn't
kind of the nineteen seventies and eighties, you know, soft porn.
It's still pretty hard porn. But a woman who's watching
it can rest assured that everybody that's in it is
(44:07):
consenting to be there, that they are not engaging in
behaviors they don't want to engage in. And the material
is produced in a way that focuses on a bit
more realistic connection and arousal kind of practices. You know,
it's not performative. And does it start with the men
(44:28):
doing the dishes and the laundry because in a little
made outfit, yeah, yeah, and then they're submissive. I mean
that to me would probably make billions of dollars before
we go as you know, I feel like I don't
feel like it. I do. I ask a lot of
(44:50):
questions on my podcast because it's like a masterclass for me.
And it's always stuff that I'm just fascinated by and
interested in. But I always allow my guests to ask
me a question, ask me anything you want. So, you know,
I did some googling alley and I saw that Yeah yeah,
oh yeah, oh yeah you got you got a Google
and I saw it. Back in nineteen when you actually
(45:12):
talked about pornography and you said that you would watch
pornography with your kids to help them talk with you
about sex and what real sex is. Did that ever
happen and what was that like? Ah? Yes, you know,
I got a lot of backlash for that comment, and
(45:33):
it was actually taken out of context. I was talking
about educating our teens when it came to pornography, and
I made a comment about I think about if I
had a teenage boy, I might if you wanted to
show me what he was watching, I would be able
to talk about it. But to answer your question, no,
(45:53):
I never watched pornography with my daughters. That's a shame.
I you know, I thought it was such a healthy statement.
I'm sorry you got backlash. There's a researcher, Emily Rothman
in Boston who teaches porn literacy and actually has evidence
based research supporting that by teaching young people about what
porn is and isn't, we can take away many of
(46:17):
the problems that porn might cause. So I thought you
I thought your statement was brilliant, and I'm sad. I'm
sad you got the hit. What I was saying was
I think our teenagers, because pornography is so pervasive, need
to be educated. I think with girls there's one kind
of education, but I do think with boys it's it's
(46:37):
at a much younger age. Because they're all watching porn.
We have to really help them understand what true intimacy
looks like, what kind of pornography, particularly the dark and
very illegal stuff. Kids that are already precociously sexual, kids
that are already interested in sad tend to be the
(47:01):
ones who seek out pornography at earlier ages. Most of
the problems of pornography on adolescents would be addressed and
mitigated with effective sex education. But we get so focused
talking about pornography and the negative messages that kids are
learning from it that we kind of forget we need
(47:22):
to put healthy messages out there. If we don't want
the negative messages to stick Yeah, I completely agree. I
mean you think about you know, and night. Again, if
I were a teenage boy and sex ed was like
the penis goes in the vagina, it throws up, and
a baby's made, and then I discovered pornography. I mean,
come on, there's no comparison. So I agree with you.
(47:43):
I think the sex education or country could be amped
up a lot more, just to show them what real
women look like when they're naked and what real sexual,
healthy relationships look like. So again that was sadly taken
out of context, but what I was really saying was
how important it is to educate our teens about pornography.
(48:08):
But you still open the door. Yeah, and I do
feel like I've educated them another way exactly. And kids
that can talk with their parents about sexuality are much
more likely to have healthy sexuality as adults. Yeah. I
want to help people be healthy and have healthy sex.
I love that. Well, that's your bumper sticker. Thank you,
(48:28):
thank you, thank you, thank you. This was fascinating. So
I thank you so much for talking to me about this,
Thanks for having me, thank you, thank you for doing this.
I mean, one of the things that I see is
that these kinds of conversations help all of the listeners
to address the issues of shame and sexuality stigma in
their life. So you're changing the world by having these conversations. Wow,
(48:55):
human sexuality will continue to boggle my mind. But so
many great insights, so interesting to me because I have
such rigid ideas about pornography and have been fascinated for
a long time about how it is incorporated into a
monogamous couple. So lots of eye opening for me. And
also he's got an array of great books to read
(49:18):
if you'd like to know more, and you can find
him on Instagram at David lay PhD. And thank you
all for listening to Go Ask Alli, and for more
information on what you've heard in this episode, check out
our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review.
Go ask Alli and follow me on social media on
Instagram at the Real Alli Wentworth. And Now, if you'd
(49:39):
like to ask me a question or suggest a guest
or a topic to dig into, I'd love to hear
from you, and there's a bunch of ways you can
do it. You can call or text me at three
two three three six four six three five six, or
you can email a voice memo right from your phone
to Go Ask Alli podcast at gmail dot com and
if you leave a question, you just might hear it
and go ask Alli. Go Ask Gali is a production
(50:05):
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