November 12, 2020 • 40 mins
Dr. Lisa Damour (psychologist and author of “Untangled” and “Under Pressure”) joins Ali to discuss teens and emotional health. Dr. Damour touches on different types of stress and how parents can manage the dreaded meltdowns, instill academic confidence in their daughters, and navigate social turmoil in a socially distanced world.
@Mentions & Guest Names/Org Names:
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi Amali Wentworth
and you're listening to Go ask Alli. Where this season
we try to figure out how to grow a teenager
in a pandemic. Today, I'm specifically asking how do you
(00:27):
grow a somewhat stress free girl in a pandemic? And
my guest today is Dr Lisa Damore. She's a psychologist.
She has written what I call the two Bibles to
surviving raising girls. One is untangled and one is under pressure.
And I think under pressure couldn't be more relevant right
now because we are in a pandemic. There are wildfires raging,
(00:51):
there is all kinds of civil unrest, there's political unrest.
What girl is not completely stressed out in anxious? Am I? Right? Oh? Yeah? Absolutely?
Um that book. That book came out in February, and
I I couldn't have imagined then how German it would be,
to what would unfold since then one one would hope
(01:15):
it wouldn't be as Germaine as it is now. But
it's uh, it couldn't be more relevant. So, um, you
talk about healthy stress, and in my opinion, healthy stress
is what kind of propels us forward. I think of
healthy stress as you know, my daughter trying out for
the lacrosse team, or I think about for myself when
I did the tonight show for the first down, I mean,
(01:37):
my my knees were gonna buckle, But you know, it
was an anxiety that gave me adrenaline and actually propelled
me to be funny. And so talk to me about
healthy stress in your terms. So we've always understood in
psychology that stress is normal, expectable, totally unavoidable, and we're
going to experience it any time we operate at the
(01:58):
edge of our capacities, and when we operate at the
edge of our capacities, we expand our capacities. So you
do it once it's terrifying, you do at the second
time it's slightly less terrifying, which means you grow. And
so the culture, prior to all of the COVID and everything,
had come to give stress a pretty bad name, you know,
(02:19):
had sort of given people the impression that the goal
is to feel calm and relaxed all the time. That's
never been something we've seen in psychology. If you're stressed,
you're usually growing, and sometimes it's good stuff that's making
you grow, and sometimes it's bad stuff that's making you grow,
like going through a hard time in your life, but
it's all growth, and it all contributes to increasing durability.
(02:39):
And so our general view has been really positive towards stress.
Right now, we're into one of the two kinds of
stress that we actually don't feel positive about. So we
don't like trauma, which some people have experienced, and we
don't like chronic stress, which everyone is experiencing right now.
So no psychologist is going to say this level of
stress is good for you, because you say there's three
(03:02):
types of stress, right life events, daily hassles, and chronic stress,
and you're saying the ladder is the one we're feeling now,
and that's the bad one. That's one of the bad ones.
And and and the way we see stresses, it's okay if
you get a break, and it's okay if it doesn't
blow you out of the water. So we don't like
trauma because that blows people out of the water. But
(03:24):
we do like things like the stress of school. School
is supposed to be stressful. You work really hard, you
learn something new, and then you rest and then you
go back to it, but stress with outbreak, whether it's
in the context of something like COVID nineteen, which never
goes away and impinches on every aspect of our lives,
or whether it's a context of living in poverty or
living in a dangerous situation that just wears people down.
(03:46):
And so the aim right now is to really buffer
chronic stress for our kids and for ourselves. And what's
the difference between stress and anxiety? We are a family
of anxiety, but is different from stress. It sounds like
it's the same thing. We can define them very sort
of technically as different. You know, in psychology we like
(04:07):
to make these like very fine grain distinctions, So we
say anxiety is more in the neighborhood of fear. Stress
is more in the neighborhood of pressure. But in real
life they get all tangled up with each other. You
know that if I live under chronic stress conditions, they're
going to make me feel anxious. If I'm anxious all
the time, that's stressful. So it doesn't mean that much
to try to distinguish them in terms of their actual
(04:29):
functioning in our day to day lives. They're both exhausting,
they both can have useful forms and they both can
cross the line from healthy to unhealthy. Because this is
putting us in sort of a state of chronic stress.
Should we all medicate? I mean, should I medicate my
teenage girl? I don't know what to do. I can't
tell the difference between what would be normal stress and
(04:51):
what is you know, them worrying about every aspect of
the globe. Right, and at this point it's almost impossible
not to medications and option. I wouldn't go with it
as the first choice. I think we got stuff before
we get there. I'm good, I'd like good. Yes, there
are things you know, when we look at like what
does it mean to manage chronic stress? What that takes
(05:11):
us into is the department of coping, right that it's
all about coping and how we're coping and what's been happening.
I mean, since the minute this came down on us,
everybody started coping. It's a very intuitive thing. We all
start doing it. What we want to watch out for
is how are people coping? Because there's bad coping and
there's good coping. So give me an example of bad
(05:31):
coping places. Yeah, you want to you want to know
my diary? So bad coping is stuff that works really
well in the short term but not well in the
long term. So it's stuff like misusing substances highly effective
in the short term helps you feel better, not a
good long term strategy. Um taking bad care of oneself,
you know, using what I call junk habits. You know,
so taking your phone to bed and scrolling and scrolling
(05:52):
instead of sleeping, or only watching you know, TV all
the time, or only eating comfort foods. Those feel good,
but they don't hold up. So in their place, what
we want for everyone, grown ups and kids alike is
good coping. So that means good solid social relationships and
staying connected in ways that are sustaining, and instead of
(06:13):
abusing substances, using happy distractions, finding things that let us
take a mental vacation from the pandemic and then come
back to it having gotten some restoration and a break.
Are you saying like a walk or I want to
just so? For some people, the mental vacation is I'm
going to go lose myself in a book, you know,
I'm just gonna go get lost in sixteenth century England.
(06:33):
I'm gonna take a vacation there. For some people, they're like,
I'm going to go bench watch a TV show just
for you know, the afternoon. For some people it's like
going out in nature. They can just let everything fall away.
And so when it comes to mental vacations, I think
the goal is to make sure that you have what yours.
You know what works for you, we know it works
for our kids. We help make those happen because we
need these vacations. We don't get other vacations right now.
(06:57):
And so that and then incredibly good self care at
this point as a non negotiable. When New York was
really bad during the pandemic, I mean, I I just
made bad parenting choices, and one of them was because
I don't I don't drink or do drugs or smoke,
but I ate a lot of ice cream because um,
that was my comfort. And I just went to the
doctor and my cholesterols three hundred. And the interesting thing
(07:21):
is that it was my two teenage girls that said, Mom,
that's really bad, Like you, you know, they sorted sort
of parenting me, and I felt like there was a
moment where I let I let go of the reins.
And that's not always the right thing to do. She said,
maybe a little, but in a long term no, right,
(07:41):
And I think that that's what we're up against with
this pandemic, is that it is a long term engagement.
You know that this is not something that we're hungering
down for two three weeks and then can just you know,
go back to normal. You know, one of my colleagues
that I thought it was so beautiful. She's like, we
have to move from coping to adaptation, you know, to
really start to think, all right, how do we live
in a healthy way given the conditions We're right, So, Lisa,
(08:04):
I have to ask you this is the this is
the big question for a parent, particularly right now in
a pandemic. How do we manage a meltdown? You could
write a whole book on that. By yeh, I can,
probably somebody could absolutely. Um. So the first thing is,
meltdowns are at an all time high. You know, I
(08:24):
think everybody's reserves are spent. Um. I think there's so
little that is filling young people up. So everything that
doesn't go well in my experience, things are going to
meltdown pretty quickly, more than usual. I've never gotten the
finger more than I have in my whole life, and
I have the past few months. Yeah, it's it's a
it's a hair trigger finger right now, and people have
(08:46):
no reserves. Um. So the first thing you have to
do to manage the meltdown is you actually have to
be in kind of decent shape yourself, because meltdowns are
so upsetting and so exhausting. Is a parent that if triggering,
they're really triggering. So if you can get yourself a
good night's sleep and go out for a walk before
you hit that melt down, you're gonna be in better shape.
I think the first thing you do with the meltdown
(09:08):
is you recognize that more than anything, what the person
wants probably is just to be heard. That when they're
deeply upset and having a sort of you know, and
saying other things. Our instinct, and this is true if
the meltdown is our kid or our spouse or an employee,
is to wait for them to stop talking so that
we can make a suggestion about what might make things better.
(09:30):
And it's such a well meaning instinct, and it's usually
the opposite of what's wanted. That's so often when we
are having a meltdown or a kid is having a meltdown,
we just need to say it all out, get it out.
Of our head, in front of ourselves, onto the table
and just let it be heard. And so the first
thing to do when managing a meltdown is actually to
(09:50):
not try to think of solutions and just try to
listen really carefully and make it clear that you listened.
And the way you make it clear that you listened,
and this is easy to say, very hard to do,
is you listen so intently that you can take that
three paragraph meltdown and summarize it back to the person
(10:10):
in one golden sentence. And it's a real challenge. So
you might have a kid tell you how awful school
is and none of it is fun and it just
stinks and there's nothing to look forward to. And if
you say with full tenderness, it's like school is all
vegetables and no dessert, usually you're done. Usually they could
(10:34):
be like, thank you and it's over. If you start
making suggestions, usually exacerbate. That's what happens in my house. Yet,
so first and foremost listen and then try to just
see if you can get the heart of it and
return it as a gift. And if you're not sure,
to do it tentatively, you know, like, is this what
(10:55):
you're saying that is wildly powerful. And then if you
still need to keep going, which you usually don't, if
you've gotten it right, but it's not easy to get
it right, then go straight to empathy. Just say, honey,
this stinks. You are right, this stinks, and stop and
(11:16):
and and just make it clear that you can tolerate
that they are unhappy, which means that they can tolerate
that they are unhappy. Um. And then if you still
need to keep going, you can validate their distress. You
can say, look, you're having the right reaction. Anyone in
your shoes would be this upset. But those are the
first steps I would take with a meltdown. And you know,
(11:38):
eventually you might get the problem solving, but only if
you offer to help. You don't throw solutions at kids,
but think of melt towns more as an invitation to
show what's happening inside to someone who can stand to
hear it. That that's what is being asked, even if
it doesn't always come across that way, and you can
(12:02):
sit with the discomfort, which is what we're really having
to do a lot is just sitting with the discomfort.
I'm saying to kiddos all the time. Look, you've got
a few crummy options. There's no good option here. Which
crummy option would you like? I hate that. This is
where we are. This is where we are. Um. Do
you think there's a difference between how girls and boys
are reacting to the pandemic and the stress and anxiety
(12:23):
that comes with it. Um, In the most sort of
broad strokes, No, I think they all hate it. I
think it stinks for all of them. I think, you know,
the disruption of school there's so um so kind of
predominant in the landscape, and that applies to all of
them equally. Um. The only really gendered difference I've noticed
(12:44):
in this is that the sort of nine to fifteen
sixteen year old boys whose social lives were heavily on
gaming before this, they're doing better than anyone else, Like
their social lives have been undisrupted by this. There is
happy is gonna be actually, So that's the only gender
difference where I'm like, Okay, those guys had to figure
(13:05):
it out. We were giving them a hard time. They're
now happier than anyone. The rest of us are trying
to figure out how to have a social life. They're
just doing what they were doing. That's the big gender
difference I've seen. And didn't girls do that with social
media a little bit? Weren't they trying to throw a
lot a larger net when it came to followers and
following and all that stuff I love to hate. Yeah,
(13:27):
they were. But what we see in the data is
that social media went up for kids, but they've buy
and large also reported more loneliness. So those two things
went upside by side this summer. So upping the social
media has not for kids in general, staved off feelings
of loneliness for those who really were accustomed to getting
(13:49):
to be together in person. Um. I think at this
point all kids will tell you a hands down that
is their preference, and if they weren't conscious of it before,
now they really are. We're gonna take a short break
and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more. Go
(14:09):
ask Alli, Alright, let's talk about school, because everybody's on
back to school, and you know, I have so many
feelings about it as a parent, you know, I have
feelings about kids, certainly underserved kids that are even struggling
with getting a computer to be able to be remote
(14:32):
and everything, and I just can't imagine that remote schooling
in the long term is going to be helpful. And
I feel like there are so many other aspects, certainly
for teens in high school, that are going to be
stunted and hurt. It's such a second choice. You know
(14:52):
that that first choice, of course, would be normal school. Um.
What we're seeing when I'm talking to those who are
in normal school is it even normal school is pretty
not normal right now. It's pretty rigid, it's pretty removed,
it's pretty joyless for all involved. Um. Kids don't really
get to see their friends in the same way. They
don't get to enjoy their teachers company in the same way.
(15:13):
It's pretty stiff and uncomfortable. UM. I think kids would
often still say they'd prefer that to being home. UM.
But one of the things that I've been thinking about
a lot is I know a lot of kids who
are really worried about contamination. And so I think, well,
if you've got a kid who is sitting in class
so uncomfortable about that kid who's got their mass hanging
(15:36):
off their ear, and that kid who's getting way too close,
they're better off at home. But what this has given us,
it's just like a whole menu of horrible choices. Right,
would you like the horrible choice of doing education from home?
Would you like the horrible choice of being anxious at school?
And is sort of this rigid environment. Um, we right
now have nothing to offer kids that really is what
(15:59):
they deserve, and and that part is heartbreaking to watch.
How do I how do I help my girls with
academic confidence in a pandemic? You talk about it a
lot in your book, But now that they're confined, how
do I help them with that? Here's where we might
have a little room to work to try to actually
(16:19):
make some some headway, especially as if we think about
girls and academic confidence good, I love, I love a
positive answer. Let's find us a little lining in here.
Let's do it. Um. One of the soapboxes that is
my favorite is about how inefficient girls are about school.
That by and large, when we look at how girls
do school, they are really good students, but they often
(16:40):
overdo it a little bit. They're not that tactical. They
tend to overstudy, they tend to go over material they
already know. They tend not to use their time all
that well. Even when they are really pressed for time,
they can kind of polish everything to a really high
shine as opposed to just getting it done and UM
to make broad gender stroke. So this will not apply
(17:01):
to all girls. This will not apply to all boys.
That's not my kids direct voices a group are much
more efficient about school. They're much more likely to walk
up to something and be like, Okay, what is the
absolute least to have to do to get the job
done or to get the grown ups off my back?
In terms of the volume of where kids have, we
actually need to think about the boys approach and encourage
(17:22):
girls to be more strategic in their deployment of their efforts.
So one maybe little benefit of this is that UM
make of us more immediate contact with how kids are
spending their time because they're spending their time in front
of us, and it may give us more room to
say to either hyperconscientious daughters or sons you're still studying
that like, do want me to quiz you? I think
you might have it right, and to really push them
(17:45):
to UM to not over study and not over exert
and not um try to shoot the lights out on
everything if they don't need to. But let stem from
the girls need to please pleasing the parents, pleasing their teachers,
pleasing the schools and and isn't that just we have
it ingrained in us? And so it makes it harder
we do. And this is our big chance to disrupt
(18:06):
that in our daughters are big chance. And so I
will say to girls, you know, what do you mean
you turned an extra credit in a class where you
have an a right because they will do that and
they'll say, well, I didn't want to disappoint the teacher.
They're very plugged into if they've given the extra credit,
they fully expect we're going to do it, and so
I'm going to do it. And that's actually the moment
when you can say, all right, but is that strategic
(18:29):
on your part? Or even better? And this is what
I really prefer is if the teacher says, what are
you doing turning an extra credit? Because then the teacher says,
if you want me to be impressed, I want to
see you use your time more efficiently. But this is
something we have not traditionally done with girls about school,
and I feel like the moment is here and we
should really help them. If one of my daughters doesn't
(18:51):
do well in a science exam, it's because Mr So
and so doesn't like her, tell me how to get
them out of this idea of bringing this back to
the pleasing thing, because I somehow they correlate that with grades. Well,
I would just really push on that assumption, and and
I would even say, you know, Mr Soul, and so
(19:14):
I think he's going to grade you fairly, and I
think he knows you've got a lot to do, and
I think he'll be impressed if you bring in what
has to be done. But whether he likes who is
actually not important here. What matters is that you're getting
enough sleep that you have energy to do the things
you want to do. Yeah, he may still like you,
or he may not like you. And what would that
(19:35):
be like? I mean to actually entertain that possibility that
it is not the girl's job to make sure that
all of her teachers feel their job has been made
easy and she is delightful. I mean to even really
pick away at that idea, So not to say, like,
please go be rude to your teacher, but to say,
if he likes you less because you're not turning an
extra credit when you don't need to, can we examine
(19:57):
if that's fair? Is that okay of him to do?
But this is this is actually the other thing again
to try to find a little positive in all of this. Um,
we have time for more conversations than we used to have.
I have two daughters. We are having longer, more detailed
conversations about these kinds of things than the rush of
pre COVID life allowed. I think this may be a
(20:21):
time when we can just talk more about what they're
observing and trouble more what has been conventional. I'm finding
personally that I'm having to be much more mindful of
my time. Um, my calendar has become much busier than
it is healthy for me, and so talking openly in
front of my daughter's about my strategies for turning things
(20:41):
down in a way that doesn't damage relationships, or to
have my adolescent daughter has something she doesn't want to
do and actually have spent time to think with her.
All right, how are you going to say no in
a way that you feel comfortable with? That time for
more sort of precise and deliberate coaching. So often in
family life, under normal conditions, we're kind of running around
and we don't always do that. So I would say
that we could do that now too. So you're talking
(21:03):
about stress and anxiety and boys are you talking about boys?
Are like, what are your top subjects at dinner? Top subjects? Um? School?
Online school is a big top subject. Um they wish
for TikTok is a big top subject. Are your girls
on computers? Are they doing homework? But there are they
(21:26):
also have tech scrolling next to them, and there they
have a YouTube thing going in the corner. Are they
sort of poltic tasking their brain? Yes? Yes, um My
my daughters are nine and sixteen, so hopefully my nine
year old is a little bit so more in within
the guard rails. I know my sixteen year old um
is doing a really good job of paying attention in class,
(21:48):
and I also know that some of her friends are
busy on texts during class, and I I'm not sure
where I come down on it, because if they got
to be together in school, there would be a wordless
delight they were taking in one another being in the
same room together. And so to the degree that I
(22:10):
know teenagers are sometimes now carrying that over to like
being in classes and then also carrying out a lengthy
text chain with their friends, part of me feels like, oh, no,
you're supposed to pay attention, and part of me feels like, dude,
whatever makes eighty hours own classes bearable for you? Do
it right? Yeah, I agree with that. Now a quick
(22:31):
word from our sponsors, welcome back to go ask Alli.
Let's get back to the discussion now. The other big
subject in our house is um social life, how to
have it, social anxiety. Tell me what you mean by
(22:53):
social turmoil, because you turn that in your book. What
do you mean by social turmoil? Well, so it's the
Nate sure of middle school especially and then sometimes sort
of carrying over into high school. UM for kids to
really be anxious about their social connections, to do everything
they can to make sure they have social connections because
(23:14):
they have sort of loosened their ties to their family
and are trying to strengthen their ties to their friends. Yes,
and this is particular of one of my daughters that
she's actually fine with two friends or one friend, but
they have to be her best friend. So there's a
big label about best friends. So I find that there's
a lot of anxiety with with my girls and girls
(23:34):
I know, between having too many and putting too much
pressure on one. Well, so what you're describing is very
well established in the research that it's actually exhausting to
have a big, broad social network when we actually look
at the data. Even if you're getting along, that sense
of maintaining an obligation or keeping everybody happy is actually
(23:57):
very taxing. So we do see mostly that the least
dressed kids have a couple of good friends, you know,
they're really sort of settling into that group. The anxiety
that arrives with that is, my group is small. I
need to know what's guaranteed. I don't have an elaborate
backup system, and so then there can be the sense
of like a tight grip, which you know is what
(24:19):
you're describing and can be kind of anxiety provoking. So
one way to think about it is there's no perfect solution.
Each solution has its downside. So the big social group
means you've got a broad network and a lot of backup.
The small group means you don't have the stress of
a broad network, but you don't have the backup. But
what I what I like about articulating like the ups
and downs of these is that it takes the critique
(24:42):
away from the kids I think so often growing up
to like look at those kids with their dumb social configurations,
why they made themselves so unhappy. There's not really a
perfect solution for them. I also think during this time,
during this pandemic, I have found myself that I have
let a lot of acquaintances go, and that that I
(25:04):
almost don't have time for the bullshit and the chit chat,
and I need very few but significant, strong bonds. And
in a strange way, I'm I'm seeing that a little
with my teenagers as well, because it's all being done
on their phone and on their computer, and they just
(25:24):
they literally can't spend twenty four hours on it, so
they have to make decisions. You know, I need to
work on an English paper, and I do want to
say hi to Timmy or Susie, but I can't possibly
I can't FaceTime Sarah and Judy and Sophie and Lulu,
And you know, it's too much. It's true. I mean,
it makes you realize a lot of friendships are very
(25:46):
much context driven. You know, there were friends because that
person is in our traffic pattern, But if our traffic
pattern changes, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's still the
person we're gonna want to talk to. And I think
kids are finding that also. But then the other thing
you're saying and I'm watching as happened as the month's
rack up with COVID is everyone is pretty raw, everyone
(26:07):
is pretty depleted. And so then, um, I'm watching myself
and I'm watching others get much more um picky about
their relational nutrition. I guess is what I would say.
You know, we're like, You're like, I can't do dunk
food anymore. Like if this is all I've gotten, this
is gonna go on for a long time. I'm going
to bring in what makes me feel good, what feels supportive,
(26:28):
but that draining relationship or that person who's kind of manipulative,
Like I can do that under normal conditions, I cannot
do that right now. And I want people to give
themselves that permission, Like I really, I know some people
are like, well I'm a bad friend. No, no, you
you get to take good care of yourself right now,
and our kids get to take good care of themselves.
Can we say that to our kids? Can we say,
(26:49):
you know what you're allowed to You wouldn't say let
go of your some of your friends, but you're you're
allowed to focus on a few right now because there's
so much that you have to deal with. It's okay,
you're not going to be unpopular, you know, let's say
when we start to go back to school, or you know,
it's you're you're not going to get bullied or teased
(27:09):
or any of the fears that they have because you've
made a quieter life for yourself. Absolutely, And the phrase
it often helps kids is that you're allowed to accomplish
a polite distance with some people, because I think, especially
for girls, they don't always feel like there's something between
best friend and cold shoulder. And I think articulate that
(27:30):
that space of like, oh no, there's people from whom
I keep a polite distance when I see them on
polite but I'm not knocking myself out to be close
with them. I think that is really useful. And I
also think if there's really a worry you say, blame me.
Say you know, my mom was being really you know,
rigid about this and she said, I can only talk
to a few people because I'm you know, spending too
(27:50):
much time on the phone, you know, you know my
mom like, And I think that is a huge gift
we can give our kids if they need an out,
is just to go ahead and say, like I'll be
the bad guy and then that that's a fair thing.
I think. Yeah, I say that for everything. They're very
happy to make me the bad guy. Yeah, no, it
absolutely does work. Um. The other thing I that I
(28:12):
talked to the girls about is uh, their quote unquote
romantic relationships, because you know, they're teenagers and there they
would be kind of interacting with each other and whatever
that is and smelling each other or whatever they do.
And so I I feel like a lot of girls
(28:33):
are not having the normal growth when it comes to
that kind of thing because there no one's face to
face and there's no parties and you know, all of that,
and that that is a that is very anxiety making
for my eldest daughter, the idea that, um, there's no love,
(28:53):
especially when we're all quarantine watching romantic movies and TV.
You know, she's like, I'll never have what Reese were.
There's own house. So there's and I don't know how
to address that. You know, just wait, you know, wait
a few years until you know things have cooled down
and you can actually go meet a boy in a mask,
not at a movie theater, because we might not have movies.
(29:15):
I mean, I really I don't know what to say. Um,
I think there's missing out. I mean, there's no getting
around that. I still think there's flirting at a distance
and digitally. I also think we don't give enough airtime too.
How much gratification, not entire gratification, but partial gratification. I
(29:35):
know teenage girls get from um crushes on people they
will never meet. So I was actually just talking with
a group of teenage girls about what they were doing
that they were interested in. And I didn't quite understand this,
but they're like, you know, the Draco TikTok's, I'm like
Draco TikTok's. So apparently there's a subset of adolescent girls
who find the character Draco Malfoy from the Harry Potter
(29:59):
movies to be very handsome. And there's this whole elaborate, um,
you know, world around this guy, and it's collective and
it's shared. It's like it's the boy band thing on
steroids and across a million platforms, and a lot of
times in the course of normal events, that becomes a
sort of love life of sorts, you know, the fantasy
(30:23):
about that person enjoying them. There's a life size cut
out of Timothy shallow ma a in one of my
daughter's rooms. Well, there you go. So there's definitely that,
and there's UM. And that's what I mean about their
watching Netflix romantic movies and they're following all kinds of
people on Instagram they've never met. But he's so cute
and but but that's not a tangible that's not a
(30:48):
awkward that the boy reaches over to hold your hand
kind of thing. That That's my only concern is I
wish for teenagers to have those wonderful moments in those
his steps, getting your lip caught in his braces, all
that stuff which I feel like they're missing out on.
Do you know what I mean? I do. It's funny
(31:09):
I don't worry about this that I don't And I'll
tell you why. I think teenage boys were wonderful and
I love caring for them. In my practice, I think
most parents of teenage boys would it be in agreement
that when it comes to relational sophistication, they lag a
bit behind the girls that UM and and there's a
reason for this. There's a reason that UM girls are very,
(31:32):
very interested in talking with their friends about relationships, and
they develop a real fluency in this, and boys are
socialized by our culture not to do this. There's no
biological underpinning for this, but boys are not socialized by
our culture to talk about feelings and talk about emotions
like girls are. And it does drive a bit of
a mismatch in terms of sophistication about thinking about relationships
(31:55):
and thinking about engaging in relationships. And I think that
mismatch last, you know, through high school often. I mean,
there's some wonderful, very emotionally in touch and subtly nuanced boys.
But I would say, if you go on broad strokes
and we look at the data, girls have been taught
by our culture to think and talk in these ways
and boys have not, been, to their detriment encouraged. So
(32:18):
there's a little part of me that's like, you know,
a little more time for that gap to close, is
all right? We were thinking about it. I completely get it.
But it's funny because if I were to write a
movie right now, it would be a movie that would
be a teenage boy who's during this pandemic completely insular.
(32:40):
A couple of years later or a year later, they
come out of the pandemic and he's expecting one thing
and she's expecting something completely different. How do these two
people have a relationship. That's a great question, right, that's
a great question, and I don't need to generalize. And
by the way, it could be a girl having amantic
(33:00):
watching romantic movies about meeting a girl and vice versa.
But I'm just talking about a a certain mentality and
gender mentality in this example. Well, we do have some
research showing that those, you know, those wonderful romantic movies
do actually set the bar a little bit too high.
They make the first kiss seem like, you know, there's
going to be fireworks, and you know, we all know
(33:21):
from real life, like you know, sometimes it's kind of
that's just kind of weird, you know. And so one
thing we can do as parents when we're watching our daughters,
you know, get very excited about our romantic sons. You
know that I'd beel like that's Hollywood. This is the
you know, like in real life, like you'll figure it
out or his breath will be weird or something like that.
So we can lower the bar. And then the other is,
(33:42):
um those raising suns to be really mindful of the
cultural messages that boys are sent. You know that they're
supposed to be much o they're supposed to be cool,
that they're supposed to have as many girls on there,
you know, um paying attention to them as possible, and
to work against that. I was talking to a bunch
of college students is about ten years ago, and we
were talking about the various cultural messages the boys are given,
(34:02):
and it was a coed room, um, about how they're
supposed to be about women. And there were two guys
in the class who were like kind of studley, like
you could tell that they maintained, you know, very happy weekends.
And they were talking about how, um, how much boys
tease one another if a boy expresses real affection for
a girl. You know that if a boy sort of
(34:22):
is it makes it clear that he has a crush
on a girl, that the boys will be like, oh,
she's got you whipped, or that's not cool. You know
that there's a lot of pressure among the guys to
not um express feelings of devotion. But then this thing happened,
and I think it was entirely unconscious. One of these
like really kind of studley guys had a large water
bottle in front of him, like um for for sports,
(34:43):
and he leaned across the desk and he cuddled it
and he was like, but really, everybody just really wants
a girlfriend, you know, And he sort of like affectionately
cuddled it, and I was so um. I was so
glad that they were willing to be unguarded and sort
of dropped the cool guy thing for a moment. But
I think that's the piece we we can work on
with boys, is to try to find a room to say, like, buddy,
(35:07):
you know, like, I know you're supposed to play this
game of being a player, but it's all right if
you just really want one person. Don't You feel like
the gen Z generation now is becoming better at understanding
that that girls are now calling boys out when they're inappropriate,
and you even write about it, you know, this about
(35:28):
changing the language of hoe and sled and all that,
even in jest. And I feel like that boys are
starting to be educated in a way where they're realizing
it too, and their act actively becoming more comfortable going
I actually want a girlfriend instead of racking them up. Yeah. No,
I hope so. And I actually I wish I could
(35:49):
remember the piece of literature, But there was a piece
of literature that a high school teacher was looking at
with the co ed class and it's the same piece
of literature she'd covered and maybe it's from classical literature
for years and years, And she said, for the first
time in the last couple of years, the boys are like, ah,
this is a little rape, you know, and like it
did never come up. And so that I think is
a really good sign. As much as there's always going
(36:13):
to be some retrograde stuff, there's always going to be
knuckle dragging. If the if the general move is for
girls and guys just start to call out stuff that
you didn't feel you could call out before, even if
you didn't like it, that's a good step. Do tell
us how, in your opinion, we can parent better by
(36:34):
example right now, and how can we help our teams
in this moment. So in parenting better by example, I
think it really is that we two are coping and
our kids are watching us cope. And and one of
my favorite phrases and all the parenting I got off
of the inside of a chocolate wrapper, which is don't
(36:54):
talk about it, just be about it. So I think
you know, we can say, you know, have you done
your mindfulness meditation or have you exercised, or you know,
like we can say those things and I think it
mostly annoys young people. Or we can say I had
a really rough day. I'm going to go take a
walk around the block because you know, do you want
to come with me? You know that that kind of thing.
So them watching us deal with our own frustration and
(37:17):
sadness right now, And it doesn't mean we always have
to be up beat. I mean we can say today
it was really hard, I feel really worn down and
I feel worried. Um, here's what I'm gonna do to
try to get myself through it. You know that that
that's sort of open modeling of healthy coping, I think
is really not hide it. You're saying not keep a
stiff upper lip and okay yeah, and or not come
down and say it had a really hard day, Like
(37:39):
where's the booze? You know, like yeah, like don't do that. Um,
that's I mean, that's a that's a great thing. I
I worry that we get susceptible to everybody in their
own rooms. You know, I'm doing school, well, I've got
a lot of work to do, and we're all just
zooming all day. Parent by example, like you said, like
I gotta just turn my computer off and go, you know,
let's go outside and mow the lawn. Not that I
(38:01):
ever would, but let's go outside, you know, that kind
of thing. Or to be openly strategic. I UM. I
started a podcast as a result of the pandemic too,
out of the sense of like, I need a way
to operate at at ways to plug it right now,
what's in it? I will because they're all gonna want
to go there now. I UM. I am really worried
(38:22):
about family mental health, and so I started a podcast
called Ask Lisa the Psychology of Parenting, and I do
it with my colleague Green and nine and who's this
incredible journalist. But I was like, I need something that
is quick and nimble and can address the parenting needs
immediately because they change so fast right now, and for
some people who couldn't afford to go see you for
(38:44):
forty five minutes twice a week, this is life saving.
It's a gift to be a psychologist right now. Um.
And you know in that I get to be useful,
which is part of what helps me cope with my
own feelings about the pandemic. But I um um sort
of stupefied by how intense this is. And you know
(39:06):
that what I can contribute is only a drop in
the bucket. But if I can get a drop in
that bucket, I'm going to try to do that. Yeah,
it's a it's a dry bucket right now. So thank
you and uh ask Lisa. Ask Lisa as a podcast
and the books are untangled and under pressure. Both of
them are on my bedstand. I read chapters of it
all the time. Thank you for your time today and
(39:28):
thank you for everything you're doing helping parents get their
teens through this time. And thank you and thank you
for this podcast, which I know is also a lifeline
for so many. Thank you for listening to Go Ask Ali.
My huge thanks again to Dr Lisa Damore who is
helping us all parent our teens, particularly girls, during this
difficult time. I gotta send her a muffin basket. She
(39:50):
really helped me today. Remember Subscribe to Go Ask Ali
and follow me on Twitter, Ali Wentworth or Instagram. The
Real Ali Wentworth. Go ask Alli is a production of
Shondaland Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi Amali Wentworth
and you're listening to Go ask Alli. Where this season
we try to figure out how to grow a teenager
in a pandemic. Today, I'm specifically asking how do you
(00:27):
grow a somewhat stress free girl in a pandemic? And
my guest today is Dr Lisa Damore. She's a psychologist.
She has written what I call the two Bibles to
surviving raising girls. One is untangled and one is under pressure.
And I think under pressure couldn't be more relevant right
now because we are in a pandemic. There are wildfires raging,
(00:51):
there is all kinds of civil unrest, there's political unrest.
What girl is not completely stressed out in anxious? Am I? Right? Oh? Yeah? Absolutely?
Um that book. That book came out in February, and
I I couldn't have imagined then how German it would be,
to what would unfold since then one one would hope
(01:15):
it wouldn't be as Germaine as it is now. But
it's uh, it couldn't be more relevant. So, um, you
talk about healthy stress, and in my opinion, healthy stress
is what kind of propels us forward. I think of
healthy stress as you know, my daughter trying out for
the lacrosse team, or I think about for myself when
I did the tonight show for the first down, I mean,
(01:37):
my my knees were gonna buckle, But you know, it
was an anxiety that gave me adrenaline and actually propelled
me to be funny. And so talk to me about
healthy stress in your terms. So we've always understood in
psychology that stress is normal, expectable, totally unavoidable, and we're
going to experience it any time we operate at the
(01:58):
edge of our capacities, and when we operate at the
edge of our capacities, we expand our capacities. So you
do it once it's terrifying, you do at the second
time it's slightly less terrifying, which means you grow. And
so the culture, prior to all of the COVID and everything,
had come to give stress a pretty bad name, you know,
(02:19):
had sort of given people the impression that the goal
is to feel calm and relaxed all the time. That's
never been something we've seen in psychology. If you're stressed,
you're usually growing, and sometimes it's good stuff that's making
you grow, and sometimes it's bad stuff that's making you grow,
like going through a hard time in your life, but
it's all growth, and it all contributes to increasing durability.
(02:39):
And so our general view has been really positive towards stress.
Right now, we're into one of the two kinds of
stress that we actually don't feel positive about. So we
don't like trauma, which some people have experienced, and we
don't like chronic stress, which everyone is experiencing right now.
So no psychologist is going to say this level of
stress is good for you, because you say there's three
(03:02):
types of stress, right life events, daily hassles, and chronic stress,
and you're saying the ladder is the one we're feeling now,
and that's the bad one. That's one of the bad ones.
And and and the way we see stresses, it's okay if
you get a break, and it's okay if it doesn't
blow you out of the water. So we don't like
trauma because that blows people out of the water. But
(03:24):
we do like things like the stress of school. School
is supposed to be stressful. You work really hard, you
learn something new, and then you rest and then you
go back to it, but stress with outbreak, whether it's
in the context of something like COVID nineteen, which never
goes away and impinches on every aspect of our lives,
or whether it's a context of living in poverty or
living in a dangerous situation that just wears people down.
(03:46):
And so the aim right now is to really buffer
chronic stress for our kids and for ourselves. And what's
the difference between stress and anxiety? We are a family
of anxiety, but is different from stress. It sounds like
it's the same thing. We can define them very sort
of technically as different. You know, in psychology we like
(04:07):
to make these like very fine grain distinctions, So we
say anxiety is more in the neighborhood of fear. Stress
is more in the neighborhood of pressure. But in real
life they get all tangled up with each other. You
know that if I live under chronic stress conditions, they're
going to make me feel anxious. If I'm anxious all
the time, that's stressful. So it doesn't mean that much
to try to distinguish them in terms of their actual
(04:29):
functioning in our day to day lives. They're both exhausting,
they both can have useful forms and they both can
cross the line from healthy to unhealthy. Because this is
putting us in sort of a state of chronic stress.
Should we all medicate? I mean, should I medicate my
teenage girl? I don't know what to do. I can't
tell the difference between what would be normal stress and
(04:51):
what is you know, them worrying about every aspect of
the globe. Right, and at this point it's almost impossible
not to medications and option. I wouldn't go with it
as the first choice. I think we got stuff before
we get there. I'm good, I'd like good. Yes, there
are things you know, when we look at like what
does it mean to manage chronic stress? What that takes
(05:11):
us into is the department of coping, right that it's
all about coping and how we're coping and what's been happening.
I mean, since the minute this came down on us,
everybody started coping. It's a very intuitive thing. We all
start doing it. What we want to watch out for
is how are people coping? Because there's bad coping and
there's good coping. So give me an example of bad
(05:31):
coping places. Yeah, you want to you want to know
my diary? So bad coping is stuff that works really
well in the short term but not well in the
long term. So it's stuff like misusing substances highly effective
in the short term helps you feel better, not a
good long term strategy. Um taking bad care of oneself,
you know, using what I call junk habits. You know,
so taking your phone to bed and scrolling and scrolling
(05:52):
instead of sleeping, or only watching you know, TV all
the time, or only eating comfort foods. Those feel good,
but they don't hold up. So in their place, what
we want for everyone, grown ups and kids alike is
good coping. So that means good solid social relationships and
staying connected in ways that are sustaining, and instead of
(06:13):
abusing substances, using happy distractions, finding things that let us
take a mental vacation from the pandemic and then come
back to it having gotten some restoration and a break.
Are you saying like a walk or I want to
just so? For some people, the mental vacation is I'm
going to go lose myself in a book, you know,
I'm just gonna go get lost in sixteenth century England.
(06:33):
I'm gonna take a vacation there. For some people, they're like,
I'm going to go bench watch a TV show just
for you know, the afternoon. For some people it's like
going out in nature. They can just let everything fall away.
And so when it comes to mental vacations, I think
the goal is to make sure that you have what yours.
You know what works for you, we know it works
for our kids. We help make those happen because we
need these vacations. We don't get other vacations right now.
(06:57):
And so that and then incredibly good self care at
this point as a non negotiable. When New York was
really bad during the pandemic, I mean, I I just
made bad parenting choices, and one of them was because
I don't I don't drink or do drugs or smoke,
but I ate a lot of ice cream because um,
that was my comfort. And I just went to the
doctor and my cholesterols three hundred. And the interesting thing
(07:21):
is that it was my two teenage girls that said, Mom,
that's really bad, Like you, you know, they sorted sort
of parenting me, and I felt like there was a
moment where I let I let go of the reins.
And that's not always the right thing to do. She said,
maybe a little, but in a long term no, right,
(07:41):
And I think that that's what we're up against with
this pandemic, is that it is a long term engagement.
You know that this is not something that we're hungering
down for two three weeks and then can just you know,
go back to normal. You know, one of my colleagues
that I thought it was so beautiful. She's like, we
have to move from coping to adaptation, you know, to
really start to think, all right, how do we live
in a healthy way given the conditions We're right, So, Lisa,
(08:04):
I have to ask you this is the this is
the big question for a parent, particularly right now in
a pandemic. How do we manage a meltdown? You could
write a whole book on that. By yeh, I can,
probably somebody could absolutely. Um. So the first thing is,
meltdowns are at an all time high. You know, I
(08:24):
think everybody's reserves are spent. Um. I think there's so
little that is filling young people up. So everything that
doesn't go well in my experience, things are going to
meltdown pretty quickly, more than usual. I've never gotten the
finger more than I have in my whole life, and
I have the past few months. Yeah, it's it's a
it's a hair trigger finger right now, and people have
(08:46):
no reserves. Um. So the first thing you have to
do to manage the meltdown is you actually have to
be in kind of decent shape yourself, because meltdowns are
so upsetting and so exhausting. Is a parent that if triggering,
they're really triggering. So if you can get yourself a
good night's sleep and go out for a walk before
you hit that melt down, you're gonna be in better shape.
I think the first thing you do with the meltdown
(09:08):
is you recognize that more than anything, what the person
wants probably is just to be heard. That when they're
deeply upset and having a sort of you know, and
saying other things. Our instinct, and this is true if
the meltdown is our kid or our spouse or an employee,
is to wait for them to stop talking so that
we can make a suggestion about what might make things better.
(09:30):
And it's such a well meaning instinct, and it's usually
the opposite of what's wanted. That's so often when we
are having a meltdown or a kid is having a meltdown,
we just need to say it all out, get it out.
Of our head, in front of ourselves, onto the table
and just let it be heard. And so the first
thing to do when managing a meltdown is actually to
(09:50):
not try to think of solutions and just try to
listen really carefully and make it clear that you listened.
And the way you make it clear that you listened,
and this is easy to say, very hard to do,
is you listen so intently that you can take that
three paragraph meltdown and summarize it back to the person
(10:10):
in one golden sentence. And it's a real challenge. So
you might have a kid tell you how awful school
is and none of it is fun and it just
stinks and there's nothing to look forward to. And if
you say with full tenderness, it's like school is all
vegetables and no dessert, usually you're done. Usually they could
(10:34):
be like, thank you and it's over. If you start
making suggestions, usually exacerbate. That's what happens in my house. Yet,
so first and foremost listen and then try to just
see if you can get the heart of it and
return it as a gift. And if you're not sure,
to do it tentatively, you know, like, is this what
(10:55):
you're saying that is wildly powerful. And then if you
still need to keep going, which you usually don't, if
you've gotten it right, but it's not easy to get
it right, then go straight to empathy. Just say, honey,
this stinks. You are right, this stinks, and stop and
(11:16):
and and just make it clear that you can tolerate
that they are unhappy, which means that they can tolerate
that they are unhappy. Um. And then if you still
need to keep going, you can validate their distress. You
can say, look, you're having the right reaction. Anyone in
your shoes would be this upset. But those are the
first steps I would take with a meltdown. And you know,
(11:38):
eventually you might get the problem solving, but only if
you offer to help. You don't throw solutions at kids,
but think of melt towns more as an invitation to
show what's happening inside to someone who can stand to
hear it. That that's what is being asked, even if
it doesn't always come across that way, and you can
(12:02):
sit with the discomfort, which is what we're really having
to do a lot is just sitting with the discomfort.
I'm saying to kiddos all the time. Look, you've got
a few crummy options. There's no good option here. Which
crummy option would you like? I hate that. This is
where we are. This is where we are. Um. Do
you think there's a difference between how girls and boys
are reacting to the pandemic and the stress and anxiety
(12:23):
that comes with it. Um, In the most sort of
broad strokes, No, I think they all hate it. I
think it stinks for all of them. I think, you know,
the disruption of school there's so um so kind of
predominant in the landscape, and that applies to all of
them equally. Um. The only really gendered difference I've noticed
(12:44):
in this is that the sort of nine to fifteen
sixteen year old boys whose social lives were heavily on
gaming before this, they're doing better than anyone else, Like
their social lives have been undisrupted by this. There is
happy is gonna be actually, So that's the only gender
difference where I'm like, Okay, those guys had to figure
(13:05):
it out. We were giving them a hard time. They're
now happier than anyone. The rest of us are trying
to figure out how to have a social life. They're
just doing what they were doing. That's the big gender
difference I've seen. And didn't girls do that with social
media a little bit? Weren't they trying to throw a
lot a larger net when it came to followers and
following and all that stuff I love to hate. Yeah,
(13:27):
they were. But what we see in the data is
that social media went up for kids, but they've buy
and large also reported more loneliness. So those two things
went upside by side this summer. So upping the social
media has not for kids in general, staved off feelings
of loneliness for those who really were accustomed to getting
(13:49):
to be together in person. Um. I think at this
point all kids will tell you a hands down that
is their preference, and if they weren't conscious of it before,
now they really are. We're gonna take a short break
and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more. Go
(14:09):
ask Alli, Alright, let's talk about school, because everybody's on
back to school, and you know, I have so many
feelings about it as a parent, you know, I have
feelings about kids, certainly underserved kids that are even struggling
with getting a computer to be able to be remote
(14:32):
and everything, and I just can't imagine that remote schooling
in the long term is going to be helpful. And
I feel like there are so many other aspects, certainly
for teens in high school, that are going to be
stunted and hurt. It's such a second choice. You know
(14:52):
that that first choice, of course, would be normal school. Um.
What we're seeing when I'm talking to those who are
in normal school is it even normal school is pretty
not normal right now. It's pretty rigid, it's pretty removed,
it's pretty joyless for all involved. Um. Kids don't really
get to see their friends in the same way. They
don't get to enjoy their teachers company in the same way.
(15:13):
It's pretty stiff and uncomfortable. UM. I think kids would
often still say they'd prefer that to being home. UM.
But one of the things that I've been thinking about
a lot is I know a lot of kids who
are really worried about contamination. And so I think, well,
if you've got a kid who is sitting in class
so uncomfortable about that kid who's got their mass hanging
(15:36):
off their ear, and that kid who's getting way too close,
they're better off at home. But what this has given us,
it's just like a whole menu of horrible choices. Right,
would you like the horrible choice of doing education from home?
Would you like the horrible choice of being anxious at school?
And is sort of this rigid environment. Um, we right
now have nothing to offer kids that really is what
(15:59):
they deserve, and and that part is heartbreaking to watch.
How do I how do I help my girls with
academic confidence in a pandemic? You talk about it a
lot in your book, But now that they're confined, how
do I help them with that? Here's where we might
have a little room to work to try to actually
(16:19):
make some some headway, especially as if we think about
girls and academic confidence good, I love, I love a
positive answer. Let's find us a little lining in here.
Let's do it. Um. One of the soapboxes that is
my favorite is about how inefficient girls are about school.
That by and large, when we look at how girls
do school, they are really good students, but they often
(16:40):
overdo it a little bit. They're not that tactical. They
tend to overstudy, they tend to go over material they
already know. They tend not to use their time all
that well. Even when they are really pressed for time,
they can kind of polish everything to a really high
shine as opposed to just getting it done and UM
to make broad gender stroke. So this will not apply
(17:01):
to all girls. This will not apply to all boys.
That's not my kids direct voices a group are much
more efficient about school. They're much more likely to walk
up to something and be like, Okay, what is the
absolute least to have to do to get the job
done or to get the grown ups off my back?
In terms of the volume of where kids have, we
actually need to think about the boys approach and encourage
(17:22):
girls to be more strategic in their deployment of their efforts.
So one maybe little benefit of this is that UM
make of us more immediate contact with how kids are
spending their time because they're spending their time in front
of us, and it may give us more room to
say to either hyperconscientious daughters or sons you're still studying
that like, do want me to quiz you? I think
you might have it right, and to really push them
(17:45):
to UM to not over study and not over exert
and not um try to shoot the lights out on
everything if they don't need to. But let stem from
the girls need to please pleasing the parents, pleasing their teachers,
pleasing the schools and and isn't that just we have
it ingrained in us? And so it makes it harder
we do. And this is our big chance to disrupt
(18:06):
that in our daughters are big chance. And so I
will say to girls, you know, what do you mean
you turned an extra credit in a class where you
have an a right because they will do that and
they'll say, well, I didn't want to disappoint the teacher.
They're very plugged into if they've given the extra credit,
they fully expect we're going to do it, and so
I'm going to do it. And that's actually the moment
when you can say, all right, but is that strategic
(18:29):
on your part? Or even better? And this is what
I really prefer is if the teacher says, what are
you doing turning an extra credit? Because then the teacher says,
if you want me to be impressed, I want to
see you use your time more efficiently. But this is
something we have not traditionally done with girls about school,
and I feel like the moment is here and we
should really help them. If one of my daughters doesn't
(18:51):
do well in a science exam, it's because Mr So
and so doesn't like her, tell me how to get
them out of this idea of bringing this back to
the pleasing thing, because I somehow they correlate that with grades. Well,
I would just really push on that assumption, and and
I would even say, you know, Mr Soul, and so
(19:14):
I think he's going to grade you fairly, and I
think he knows you've got a lot to do, and
I think he'll be impressed if you bring in what
has to be done. But whether he likes who is
actually not important here. What matters is that you're getting
enough sleep that you have energy to do the things
you want to do. Yeah, he may still like you,
or he may not like you. And what would that
(19:35):
be like? I mean to actually entertain that possibility that
it is not the girl's job to make sure that
all of her teachers feel their job has been made
easy and she is delightful. I mean to even really
pick away at that idea, So not to say, like,
please go be rude to your teacher, but to say,
if he likes you less because you're not turning an
extra credit when you don't need to, can we examine
(19:57):
if that's fair? Is that okay of him to do?
But this is this is actually the other thing again
to try to find a little positive in all of this. Um,
we have time for more conversations than we used to have.
I have two daughters. We are having longer, more detailed
conversations about these kinds of things than the rush of
pre COVID life allowed. I think this may be a
(20:21):
time when we can just talk more about what they're
observing and trouble more what has been conventional. I'm finding
personally that I'm having to be much more mindful of
my time. Um, my calendar has become much busier than
it is healthy for me, and so talking openly in
front of my daughter's about my strategies for turning things
(20:41):
down in a way that doesn't damage relationships, or to
have my adolescent daughter has something she doesn't want to
do and actually have spent time to think with her.
All right, how are you going to say no in
a way that you feel comfortable with? That time for
more sort of precise and deliberate coaching. So often in
family life, under normal conditions, we're kind of running around
and we don't always do that. So I would say
that we could do that now too. So you're talking
(21:03):
about stress and anxiety and boys are you talking about boys?
Are like, what are your top subjects at dinner? Top subjects? Um? School?
Online school is a big top subject. Um they wish
for TikTok is a big top subject. Are your girls
on computers? Are they doing homework? But there are they
(21:26):
also have tech scrolling next to them, and there they
have a YouTube thing going in the corner. Are they
sort of poltic tasking their brain? Yes? Yes, um My
my daughters are nine and sixteen, so hopefully my nine
year old is a little bit so more in within
the guard rails. I know my sixteen year old um
is doing a really good job of paying attention in class,
(21:48):
and I also know that some of her friends are
busy on texts during class, and I I'm not sure
where I come down on it, because if they got
to be together in school, there would be a wordless
delight they were taking in one another being in the
same room together. And so to the degree that I
(22:10):
know teenagers are sometimes now carrying that over to like
being in classes and then also carrying out a lengthy
text chain with their friends, part of me feels like, oh, no,
you're supposed to pay attention, and part of me feels like, dude,
whatever makes eighty hours own classes bearable for you? Do
it right? Yeah, I agree with that. Now a quick
(22:31):
word from our sponsors, welcome back to go ask Alli.
Let's get back to the discussion now. The other big
subject in our house is um social life, how to
have it, social anxiety. Tell me what you mean by
(22:53):
social turmoil, because you turn that in your book. What
do you mean by social turmoil? Well, so it's the
Nate sure of middle school especially and then sometimes sort
of carrying over into high school. UM for kids to
really be anxious about their social connections, to do everything
they can to make sure they have social connections because
(23:14):
they have sort of loosened their ties to their family
and are trying to strengthen their ties to their friends. Yes,
and this is particular of one of my daughters that
she's actually fine with two friends or one friend, but
they have to be her best friend. So there's a
big label about best friends. So I find that there's
a lot of anxiety with with my girls and girls
(23:34):
I know, between having too many and putting too much
pressure on one. Well, so what you're describing is very
well established in the research that it's actually exhausting to
have a big, broad social network when we actually look
at the data. Even if you're getting along, that sense
of maintaining an obligation or keeping everybody happy is actually
(23:57):
very taxing. So we do see mostly that the least
dressed kids have a couple of good friends, you know,
they're really sort of settling into that group. The anxiety
that arrives with that is, my group is small. I
need to know what's guaranteed. I don't have an elaborate
backup system, and so then there can be the sense
of like a tight grip, which you know is what
(24:19):
you're describing and can be kind of anxiety provoking. So
one way to think about it is there's no perfect solution.
Each solution has its downside. So the big social group
means you've got a broad network and a lot of backup.
The small group means you don't have the stress of
a broad network, but you don't have the backup. But
what I what I like about articulating like the ups
and downs of these is that it takes the critique
(24:42):
away from the kids I think so often growing up
to like look at those kids with their dumb social configurations,
why they made themselves so unhappy. There's not really a
perfect solution for them. I also think during this time,
during this pandemic, I have found myself that I have
let a lot of acquaintances go, and that that I
(25:04):
almost don't have time for the bullshit and the chit chat,
and I need very few but significant, strong bonds. And
in a strange way, I'm I'm seeing that a little
with my teenagers as well, because it's all being done
on their phone and on their computer, and they just
(25:24):
they literally can't spend twenty four hours on it, so
they have to make decisions. You know, I need to
work on an English paper, and I do want to
say hi to Timmy or Susie, but I can't possibly
I can't FaceTime Sarah and Judy and Sophie and Lulu,
And you know, it's too much. It's true. I mean,
it makes you realize a lot of friendships are very
(25:46):
much context driven. You know, there were friends because that
person is in our traffic pattern, But if our traffic
pattern changes, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's still the
person we're gonna want to talk to. And I think
kids are finding that also. But then the other thing
you're saying and I'm watching as happened as the month's
rack up with COVID is everyone is pretty raw, everyone
(26:07):
is pretty depleted. And so then, um, I'm watching myself
and I'm watching others get much more um picky about
their relational nutrition. I guess is what I would say.
You know, we're like, You're like, I can't do dunk
food anymore. Like if this is all I've gotten, this
is gonna go on for a long time. I'm going
to bring in what makes me feel good, what feels supportive,
(26:28):
but that draining relationship or that person who's kind of manipulative,
Like I can do that under normal conditions, I cannot
do that right now. And I want people to give
themselves that permission, Like I really, I know some people
are like, well I'm a bad friend. No, no, you
you get to take good care of yourself right now,
and our kids get to take good care of themselves.
Can we say that to our kids? Can we say,
(26:49):
you know what you're allowed to You wouldn't say let
go of your some of your friends, but you're you're
allowed to focus on a few right now because there's
so much that you have to deal with. It's okay,
you're not going to be unpopular, you know, let's say
when we start to go back to school, or you know,
it's you're you're not going to get bullied or teased
(27:09):
or any of the fears that they have because you've
made a quieter life for yourself. Absolutely, And the phrase
it often helps kids is that you're allowed to accomplish
a polite distance with some people, because I think, especially
for girls, they don't always feel like there's something between
best friend and cold shoulder. And I think articulate that
(27:30):
that space of like, oh no, there's people from whom
I keep a polite distance when I see them on
polite but I'm not knocking myself out to be close
with them. I think that is really useful. And I
also think if there's really a worry you say, blame me.
Say you know, my mom was being really you know,
rigid about this and she said, I can only talk
to a few people because I'm you know, spending too
(27:50):
much time on the phone, you know, you know my
mom like, And I think that is a huge gift
we can give our kids if they need an out,
is just to go ahead and say, like I'll be
the bad guy and then that that's a fair thing.
I think. Yeah, I say that for everything. They're very
happy to make me the bad guy. Yeah, no, it
absolutely does work. Um. The other thing I that I
(28:12):
talked to the girls about is uh, their quote unquote
romantic relationships, because you know, they're teenagers and there they
would be kind of interacting with each other and whatever
that is and smelling each other or whatever they do.
And so I I feel like a lot of girls
(28:33):
are not having the normal growth when it comes to
that kind of thing because there no one's face to
face and there's no parties and you know, all of that,
and that that is a that is very anxiety making
for my eldest daughter, the idea that, um, there's no love,
(28:53):
especially when we're all quarantine watching romantic movies and TV.
You know, she's like, I'll never have what Reese were.
There's own house. So there's and I don't know how
to address that. You know, just wait, you know, wait
a few years until you know things have cooled down
and you can actually go meet a boy in a mask,
not at a movie theater, because we might not have movies.
(29:15):
I mean, I really I don't know what to say. Um,
I think there's missing out. I mean, there's no getting
around that. I still think there's flirting at a distance
and digitally. I also think we don't give enough airtime too.
How much gratification, not entire gratification, but partial gratification. I
(29:35):
know teenage girls get from um crushes on people they
will never meet. So I was actually just talking with
a group of teenage girls about what they were doing
that they were interested in. And I didn't quite understand this,
but they're like, you know, the Draco TikTok's, I'm like
Draco TikTok's. So apparently there's a subset of adolescent girls
who find the character Draco Malfoy from the Harry Potter
(29:59):
movies to be very handsome. And there's this whole elaborate, um,
you know, world around this guy, and it's collective and
it's shared. It's like it's the boy band thing on
steroids and across a million platforms, and a lot of
times in the course of normal events, that becomes a
sort of love life of sorts, you know, the fantasy
(30:23):
about that person enjoying them. There's a life size cut
out of Timothy shallow ma a in one of my
daughter's rooms. Well, there you go. So there's definitely that,
and there's UM. And that's what I mean about their
watching Netflix romantic movies and they're following all kinds of
people on Instagram they've never met. But he's so cute
and but but that's not a tangible that's not a
(30:48):
awkward that the boy reaches over to hold your hand
kind of thing. That That's my only concern is I
wish for teenagers to have those wonderful moments in those
his steps, getting your lip caught in his braces, all
that stuff which I feel like they're missing out on.
Do you know what I mean? I do. It's funny
(31:09):
I don't worry about this that I don't And I'll
tell you why. I think teenage boys were wonderful and
I love caring for them. In my practice, I think
most parents of teenage boys would it be in agreement
that when it comes to relational sophistication, they lag a
bit behind the girls that UM and and there's a
reason for this. There's a reason that UM girls are very,
(31:32):
very interested in talking with their friends about relationships, and
they develop a real fluency in this, and boys are
socialized by our culture not to do this. There's no
biological underpinning for this, but boys are not socialized by
our culture to talk about feelings and talk about emotions
like girls are. And it does drive a bit of
a mismatch in terms of sophistication about thinking about relationships
(31:55):
and thinking about engaging in relationships. And I think that
mismatch last, you know, through high school often. I mean,
there's some wonderful, very emotionally in touch and subtly nuanced boys.
But I would say, if you go on broad strokes
and we look at the data, girls have been taught
by our culture to think and talk in these ways
and boys have not, been, to their detriment encouraged. So
(32:18):
there's a little part of me that's like, you know,
a little more time for that gap to close, is
all right? We were thinking about it. I completely get it.
But it's funny because if I were to write a
movie right now, it would be a movie that would
be a teenage boy who's during this pandemic completely insular.
(32:40):
A couple of years later or a year later, they
come out of the pandemic and he's expecting one thing
and she's expecting something completely different. How do these two
people have a relationship. That's a great question, right, that's
a great question, and I don't need to generalize. And
by the way, it could be a girl having amantic
(33:00):
watching romantic movies about meeting a girl and vice versa.
But I'm just talking about a a certain mentality and
gender mentality in this example. Well, we do have some
research showing that those, you know, those wonderful romantic movies
do actually set the bar a little bit too high.
They make the first kiss seem like, you know, there's
going to be fireworks, and you know, we all know
(33:21):
from real life, like you know, sometimes it's kind of
that's just kind of weird, you know. And so one
thing we can do as parents when we're watching our daughters,
you know, get very excited about our romantic sons. You
know that I'd beel like that's Hollywood. This is the
you know, like in real life, like you'll figure it
out or his breath will be weird or something like that.
So we can lower the bar. And then the other is,
(33:42):
um those raising suns to be really mindful of the
cultural messages that boys are sent. You know that they're
supposed to be much o they're supposed to be cool,
that they're supposed to have as many girls on there,
you know, um paying attention to them as possible, and
to work against that. I was talking to a bunch
of college students is about ten years ago, and we
were talking about the various cultural messages the boys are given,
(34:02):
and it was a coed room, um, about how they're
supposed to be about women. And there were two guys
in the class who were like kind of studley, like
you could tell that they maintained, you know, very happy weekends.
And they were talking about how, um, how much boys
tease one another if a boy expresses real affection for
a girl. You know that if a boy sort of
(34:22):
is it makes it clear that he has a crush
on a girl, that the boys will be like, oh,
she's got you whipped, or that's not cool. You know
that there's a lot of pressure among the guys to
not um express feelings of devotion. But then this thing happened,
and I think it was entirely unconscious. One of these
like really kind of studley guys had a large water
bottle in front of him, like um for for sports,
(34:43):
and he leaned across the desk and he cuddled it
and he was like, but really, everybody just really wants
a girlfriend, you know, And he sort of like affectionately
cuddled it, and I was so um. I was so
glad that they were willing to be unguarded and sort
of dropped the cool guy thing for a moment. But
I think that's the piece we we can work on
with boys, is to try to find a room to say, like, buddy,
(35:07):
you know, like, I know you're supposed to play this
game of being a player, but it's all right if
you just really want one person. Don't You feel like
the gen Z generation now is becoming better at understanding
that that girls are now calling boys out when they're inappropriate,
and you even write about it, you know, this about
(35:28):
changing the language of hoe and sled and all that,
even in jest. And I feel like that boys are
starting to be educated in a way where they're realizing
it too, and their act actively becoming more comfortable going
I actually want a girlfriend instead of racking them up. Yeah. No,
I hope so. And I actually I wish I could
(35:49):
remember the piece of literature, But there was a piece
of literature that a high school teacher was looking at
with the co ed class and it's the same piece
of literature she'd covered and maybe it's from classical literature
for years and years, And she said, for the first
time in the last couple of years, the boys are like, ah,
this is a little rape, you know, and like it
did never come up. And so that I think is
a really good sign. As much as there's always going
(36:13):
to be some retrograde stuff, there's always going to be
knuckle dragging. If the if the general move is for
girls and guys just start to call out stuff that
you didn't feel you could call out before, even if
you didn't like it, that's a good step. Do tell
us how, in your opinion, we can parent better by
(36:34):
example right now, and how can we help our teams
in this moment. So in parenting better by example, I
think it really is that we two are coping and
our kids are watching us cope. And and one of
my favorite phrases and all the parenting I got off
of the inside of a chocolate wrapper, which is don't
(36:54):
talk about it, just be about it. So I think
you know, we can say, you know, have you done
your mindfulness meditation or have you exercised, or you know,
like we can say those things and I think it
mostly annoys young people. Or we can say I had
a really rough day. I'm going to go take a
walk around the block because you know, do you want
to come with me? You know that that kind of thing.
So them watching us deal with our own frustration and
(37:17):
sadness right now, And it doesn't mean we always have
to be up beat. I mean we can say today
it was really hard, I feel really worn down and
I feel worried. Um, here's what I'm gonna do to
try to get myself through it. You know that that
that's sort of open modeling of healthy coping, I think
is really not hide it. You're saying not keep a
stiff upper lip and okay yeah, and or not come
down and say it had a really hard day, Like
(37:39):
where's the booze? You know, like yeah, like don't do that. Um,
that's I mean, that's a that's a great thing. I
I worry that we get susceptible to everybody in their
own rooms. You know, I'm doing school, well, I've got
a lot of work to do, and we're all just
zooming all day. Parent by example, like you said, like
I gotta just turn my computer off and go, you know,
let's go outside and mow the lawn. Not that I
(38:01):
ever would, but let's go outside, you know, that kind
of thing. Or to be openly strategic. I UM. I
started a podcast as a result of the pandemic too,
out of the sense of like, I need a way
to operate at at ways to plug it right now,
what's in it? I will because they're all gonna want
to go there now. I UM. I am really worried
(38:22):
about family mental health, and so I started a podcast
called Ask Lisa the Psychology of Parenting, and I do
it with my colleague Green and nine and who's this
incredible journalist. But I was like, I need something that
is quick and nimble and can address the parenting needs
immediately because they change so fast right now, and for
some people who couldn't afford to go see you for
(38:44):
forty five minutes twice a week, this is life saving.
It's a gift to be a psychologist right now. Um.
And you know in that I get to be useful,
which is part of what helps me cope with my
own feelings about the pandemic. But I um um sort
of stupefied by how intense this is. And you know
(39:06):
that what I can contribute is only a drop in
the bucket. But if I can get a drop in
that bucket, I'm going to try to do that. Yeah,
it's a it's a dry bucket right now. So thank
you and uh ask Lisa. Ask Lisa as a podcast
and the books are untangled and under pressure. Both of
them are on my bedstand. I read chapters of it
all the time. Thank you for your time today and
(39:28):
thank you for everything you're doing helping parents get their
teens through this time. And thank you and thank you
for this podcast, which I know is also a lifeline
for so many. Thank you for listening to Go Ask Ali.
My huge thanks again to Dr Lisa Damore who is
helping us all parent our teens, particularly girls, during this
difficult time. I gotta send her a muffin basket. She
(39:50):
really helped me today. Remember Subscribe to Go Ask Ali
and follow me on Twitter, Ali Wentworth or Instagram. The
Real Ali Wentworth. Go ask Alli is a production of
Shondaland Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!