Episode 15: Michigan Chamber of Commerce

iHeartMedia Detroit Metro President Colleen Grant interviews President and CEO Jim Holcomb, who discusses how the Michigan Chamber of Commerce serves businesses across the state

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Light Up to d afocus on what's happening in our community from
the people who make it happen.Here's your host, I heard Media Detroit
Market President Colleen Grant. Good morningand welcome to Light Up The d Our

(00:45):
guest today is Jim Holcomb. He'sPresident and CEO of the Michigan Chamber of
Commerce. Jim started his tenure atthe Michigan Chamber of Commerce in January of
twenty twenty two, after serving asexecutive vice president, general counsel and leader
of the organization's business advocacy team.His work has helped a Chamber consistently earned
top honors as the most effective association. He's worked in and around lansing policy

(01:07):
circles for over twenty five years asa lawyer and as a former legislative staffer
with senior positions in both the MichiganHouse of Representatives and State Senate. Welcome,
Jim Holcome, thanks for being heretoday. Thank you so much for
having me. I really appreciate it. So you've been with the Michigan Chamber
since January twenty twenty two in thisrole. In this role, I joined

(01:30):
the Chamber in two thousand and eight. Okay, so okay, and you
sounds like you've done a lot inLansing already. Yes, how did you
end up with this role at theMichigan Chamber And what do you love about
what you're doing? Oh? AndI do love the job. How I
came to the Chamber as I havea background rooted in policy and legal I
came up. I got to Landisingninety two as an intern, stayed on

(01:52):
work campaigns, worked in the legislativeprocess, and I just love the legislative
process. I love delving into issues. I like trying to problem solve.
I liked trying to make sure thateveryone's working together to make Michigan better.
And that's what I always saw aboutthe Michigan Chamber when I was on staff,
where everyone holds the Chamber in highesteem because we tried to be professionalized.
We're a nonpartisan organization and our wholefocus is just creating a stronger Michigan

(02:15):
for everyone so everyone can prosper.And that always just spoke to me individually,
and I want to make sure thatMichigan is great for everybody. I
was born and raised here. Ilove it here. I think it's a
great place to be. So howmany businesses would you say you work with
in and around the whole state becauseyou serve the whole state. We do.
We serve the whole state. Wehave approximately five thousand members and customers

(02:36):
and they employ over a million anda half individuals, and so we have
a far reach. And that's thegreat thing about the Chamber is just the
diversity of opinion, the diversity ofissues we deal with, the diversity every
corner of the state. We havesomebody talking to us, either bringing us
a solution or bringing us the problemthat we can all work on together.
So it sounds like it's very collaborativethe way you operate with the businesses in

(02:58):
the state. Absolutely very collaborative wehave. If you're a member of the
Michigan Chamber, you're able to siton any policy committee. And I think
one thing that would probably surprise peoplenot only the diversity of our businesses and
then we are in every corner,but it's one business, one vote.
We're a member driven, policy focusedorganization, and if you want to get
engaged, you're going to be engagedat the same level if you're a one

(03:21):
person shop or the biggest company inthe state, it's one person, one
vote, and we've found that servesus best to really get to the true
root of a problem and to havethat collaborative approach that you talk about.
We believe we're all stronger when we'reworking together, and we try to do
that with the business community and justbe a champion for free enterprise. Is
the one vote policy that you guyshave. Is that different than other chambers

(03:45):
around the country. I don't knowif I think some chambers across country are
different, but I think it's surprisingto people. I think they believe or
they have the misapprehension if you're ahuge company in Michigan that you're going to
have more sway and more clout.Certainly, you may have different resources to
bring to bear, you have differentways to bring issues forward. But when
you get to our board, andwe have very active board of directors,

(04:06):
it's not a rubber stamp board whereeighty four member board of directors. That
helps us decide our policy positions andit's great debate, but it's one person,
one vote. Right when we getin there, you count them up
and the best part is why Ifind it kind of really exciting. More
often than not, it's the vastmajority all agree on the direction because we've

(04:27):
done the work. We've come upthrough a policy committee. We've had that
open and honest conversation to really getto the root of the problem and try
to figure out what's best for Michigan, what's best for job providers. Because
when our job providers do well,our employees do well, our communities are
strengthened. I love It's one thingmost people would be surprised about the Michigan
Chamber of Commerce. As I said, probably the diversity of our industries and

(04:50):
the one business, one vote,but also probably that we're diverse of political
leanings. We're a champion for business. We have Republicans, Democrats, independent.
If you want to make Michigan stronger, if you want to help job
providers, the Michigan Chambers the placefor you. And we don't do a
lot of social issues. We reallytry to delve into how do you make

(05:11):
Michigan effective and let job providers andentrepreneurs create and really strengthened Michigan because it's
their ingenuity, their vision, theirpassion for what they do, and working
collectively and collaboratively with their employees.Michigan is improving and we try to support
that. So the diversity is oneof the big big differences in the one

(05:32):
vote. And there are a lotof Chamber of Commerces in the state.
You know, whether it's the onein your own town or across the country.
Can you explain how your particular businessnetwork works and what the differences might
be on the way they all worktogether. Sure, there's a lot of
confusion. Sometimes somebody thinks, well, I belonged to the Michigan Chambers are
automaculately my local Chamber, the USChamber, the Chambers of Federation, we're

(05:57):
all our own individual business organizations andthe Michigan Chamber. We have approximately one
hundred and twenty five local chambers thatare members and so they joined as a
member dues pay member. We dothe same with the US Chamber, and
we work collaboratively in word link,but we aren't lockstep because every organization,
just like any business, they havea little different vision, value or outlook.

(06:20):
A lot of local chambers focus strictlyon community events locally and they don't
see the connection. Michigan Chamber doesa lot of advocacy work. We do
a lot of regulatory work, alot of our focus is making sure we
have statewide policy that is consistent andthat doesn't meet for what they need.
And that's absolutely the correct choice.But there are a lot of local chambers

(06:42):
that say, you know what,we really want to make sure that the
voice of business from our community isbeing heard. So they joined the chamber
and they serve on policy committees.You know, just southeast Michigan, you
have the Detroit Regional Grand Detroit RegionalChamber of Commerce is a great member,
the Greater Northern Farmington is a greatchamber, Bloomfield Birmingham is a great chamber.
A lot of us all work togetherand we have a shared mission,

(07:04):
but it's not always identical. Youhad mentioned that advocacy and policy is a
lot of what your chamber does alot more of, and you've been involved
in those political circles in the lasttwenty five years. What would you say
it's changed most? What have youseen evolve or what has changed lease over

(07:25):
that time period. I would sayprobably the two things that I think have
changed the most, first being technology. Every realm of our life has been
changed by technology, and policymaking inthe legislative process is no different. When
I came to Lansing in the earlynineties. You know, a committee notice
would be printed, you'd hang itout a bulletin board, you'd mail them
out, you put a stamp outan envelope and you put it out there.

(07:47):
Even the process of making laws now, with everything being electronic, it's
so much more accessible and people cansee what amendment is being proposed on the
floor because there's a session website andthey can follow a session, they can
watch it on TV, they cansee it electronically, and it helps with
research. It just everything has beenstreamlined, and I think there's a lot

(08:09):
of benefit to that. We're moreconnected, the communication is better, and
it's more instantaneous. What used tobe a twenty four hour news cycle is
now an instantaneous new cycle. Sowhatever it's going on Lansing gets to people
quicker. I think also one ofthe biggest changes I've seen is kind of
an outgrowth of that is the lackof civility in the process. And sorry

(08:31):
to hear that, I really amwell and I think it's all in society
too, and I think technology hasdone that. We have a lot of
keyboard warriors. You can get behindyour phone and text and tweet and do
whatever you want. Misinformation can beout there, misleading information, and I
think it's made people when you don'thave to interact with somebody face to face,
Like I love the conversation you arehaving. We're five feet apart and

(08:52):
we're talking. You can connect withsomebody sitting behind the screen. You just
don't do that. And a lotof times somebody can misinterpret words because they
don't see the nonverbal cue. Happensall the time exactly, And I just
think that people are feeling a littlemore empowered, to me, more uncivil
because you're talking to extremes, andthe political process, we've pushed everybody to

(09:13):
an extreme. You're far right oryou're far left. Unfortunately, people in
the middle are disengaging. When weneed people to lean in and really engage
and be collaborative, they're just puttheir head down. Yeah, because you
can't have it to progressis a conversation, because somebody's going to attack you.
They're going to try to cancel you. The best way and their mind,

(09:35):
unfortunately, for many to win isjust shut off the debate so the opposition
can't be heard. I believe inthe Michigan Chamber our members have always told
me the best way to get toa good solution is to have an open,
honest conversation and put everything out therethere. Some of our best solutions
come when people disagree, and ifwe all listen instead of talking first,
maybe we'll get a little a littlebetter at that. So the good philosophy

(09:56):
we all should have. So whatdo you as some of the biggest challenges
and opportunities for Michigan businesses right now? I think number one, the number
one issue I hear from all ofour members is talent attraction and retention.
Yeah, we hear that everywhere.Just trying to find the people that have
the skill set you need in thathave the desire to join an organization.

(10:18):
And again, technology has made thisa little different. Zoom was a great
way to deal with COVID, butmany people have now seen it and said,
Okay, I just want to workat home, right and I don't
want to come to the office.Well, that hurts culture, it hurts
collaboration, it hurts mentoring. Maybeyou know you can do everything you need
to do at your desk at home, but three other people down the hall

(10:39):
need you there to get their jobdone. And so I think that's one
of the big challenges. Certainly inflation, supply chain, normal economic issues.
Global issues are still really kind ofleaning in. But if I look in
Michigan, I think one of thebiggest impediments even to talent attraction retention is
affordable housing and affordable childcare, acouple issues that people just would not normally

(11:00):
think the business community would care aboutor be involved in. And as we
really took a deep dive and overthe last couple of years, we tried
to step back as an organization sayOkay, we don't get involved in social
issues, but what are social symptomsthat are impacting business issues? And we
found those to be two of themajor ones. Yeah, because affordable housing,
that's something that really contributes to whetherpeople can get to work or not

(11:22):
and how far away they are fromworking. Yeah, we have a lot
of great employers in state that wantto put up a factory, but there's
not affordable housing around. Even ifthey're paying a great wage, it's just
not available. And there's a lotof single parents out there that need to
know what happens with childcare. Howdo I want to be a good employee
and I want to show up andthere are programs out there. There's a

(11:43):
trieshare program that the state works withwhere the government pays a third, the
employee pays a third, and theemployee pays the third of childcare. And
that was piloted a few years agoin the budget. And if you look
at areas like ann Arbor and someothers of Southeast Michigan, it's been a
huge success. The employee feel likethey're supported, the employer isn't having to
try to hire and retrain somebody constantly, and we're keeping people engaged who want

(12:07):
to be engaged with each other.Yeah, I was talking to you were
talking about mentoring, and I wastalking to a local business a little bit
ago, and they were saying thata lot of their jobs were being outsourced
to people who are willing to havethe work from home philosophy. And that
business was saying, I realized whatI was doing to my own economy,

(12:28):
what my business was doing by outsourcingto work at home people from out of
state. And I realized and Iwas losing my culture for my business,
and there was no mentoring going on. And he said, I'm going to
start bringing people back in to workin the office and try to build that
culture and build our economy locally asopposed to outsourcing to people who are sitting
at home in some other state andhaving the money go there. Yeah,

(12:50):
what a great approach. And Ithink what we're seeing it's a really healthy
conversation we're having in businesses across thecountry and especially across Michigan, between employers
and employees and what do you want. I survey our Chamber employees what I
may think is important to an employee. A couple of times they came back
said, yeah, we really don'tcare about that. I thought I was
given them a great benefit and theysaid, no, we'd rather use resources

(13:13):
over here. And I think it'san awesome conversation to have. It's about
building culture. It's about making sureyour employees are happy the best. We
spend so much time with our coworkers, more than our families many times.
Yeah, you need to make surethat people are excited about coming to
work and they feel valued, andthen you get the best production out of
them. And I think that conversationis really benefiting because you're seeing employees and

(13:35):
employers being creative together to say wehave limited resources. What was surprising to
me when I talk to businesses acrossstate to do it with their employees.
Salary is not always the number oneissue. They want flexibility, They want
to make sure they have good healthcarebenefits, they want to make sure that
they're being mentored in professional development.And we have to acknowledge that as well,

(13:56):
that most employees come in it's nota thirty five year career at one
employer anymore. It's seven years andthen I'm going to upscale my skill set
or I'm going to change the industries. And that's just the way of the
world right now. So why don'twe talk a little bit more about talent
and workforce challenges? You know,since we are on that subject, what
do you think can make a differencein that issue. I think we need

(14:18):
to make sure we have a strongK twelve system. We need to make
sure that higher ED is affordable andthat people going through the higher ED system
really should be there, because Ithink we've diminished the importance of the trades.
Skilled trades are such a huge partof right building. They're great jobs.
There are a lot of people whoare creative, work with their hands,
problem solved and I understand. Iserved on a commission a couple of

(14:41):
years ago where we went around thestate and talked to communities about the trades.
And what I heard from a lotof parents who were in the trades,
Oh, it's a hard job andit's thirty work. I just want
better for my kids. I don'twant them to do it. And their
children were saying, I really likethe work you did. I like that
you were in construction or a plumberor a plaster and look at what you
created. And I don't want tosit behind the desk. I want to

(15:05):
create with my hands, and Iwant to better my community. And it
was some really good conversation. Wouldyou would see the child interacting with the
parent. All of sudden there wasa meeting of the minds, like,
yeah, it is a really hardjob, and you know what, I'm
sore at the end of the night, and maybe after thirty years my body
is broken on a little bit.But it's been a great job. It
provided for their family, getting goodpaychecks, and I think we need to
make sure we're encouraging that. Iknow when I grew up in K twelve,

(15:28):
you had auto mechanics, you hadshop class, you had architecture,
you had drafting, all these things, and I think we've seen them in
a lot of districts. They don'thave the resources for them, and they
go away and we aren't really exposingkids to the true sense of what they
can be because we've limited their purview. Yeah, there's so much demand,
Yes, I mean there's so muchdemand, and they're very high paying jobs.

(15:52):
You want to be a welder rightnow? It's a six figure job,
right, Yeah, it's and there'sno student debt. They get trained
the unions to do a good job, the trades to make sure their apprentices
have the skill set they need tobe marketable. Let's make sure we're focusing
on the children and the kids andmaking sure we're giving them a good path
and not bricks and mortar of acertain school or a certain belief system.

(16:15):
Right, tell me about Emerged Skilled. Emerged Skilled. We're happy, very
happy to that program. We've partneredwith them, and it's where you can
match up K twelve students, mostlyhigh school with that entry level job.
It's about that apprenticeship, that internship, that part time or full time job.
And what they do is they goaround they work with the intermediate school
districts and it's getting rolled out statewide, and I think of it as job

(16:40):
skilled database matching. You know,the students fill out their form, the
employers fill out their ears, andif you're a student, you can be
passive and say, well, somebodycomes to me great, or you can
be as aggressive as you want andgo looking for those opportunities. And we
have I believe, over two hundredand fifty employers already on the platform,
over fifteen thousand students. Wow.And we're being rolled out by Emerge,

(17:04):
a company we partner with. They'rerolling it out on a statewide basis,
counted by county, Wayne, Oakland, mccombar, I believe are already in
it, Kent County, maybe Kalamazoo. And so we're excited about that because
again it's it's a tool for students, and so many of these students you're
out there on your own just becauseit's a hard thing to navigate that first

(17:25):
job, that entry level job,and there are great opportunities. We just
make sure everybody knows what's available.So if employers or workers aren't interested in
learning more about emerged skilled, wherewould they find out? They find an
Michamber dot com or give us acall at five one seven, three seven
one, twenty one hundred. We'reglad to get you connected with David Brownback
on our team and he's our expert, and we'll make sure that those connections

(17:45):
happen. Give us that phone numberone more time. Five one seven,
three seven one, twenty one hundred. So I am here today with Chim
Holcomb. He's the president and CEOof the Michigan Chamber of Commerce. So
Michigan is one of a few statesthat it's losing population. You know,
we talked about the workforce earlier inour conversation. How much of an impact

(18:06):
is that and what can be doneabout it. It's a huge impact.
It's a sad situation we've had becauseit's been happening for years and what we're
seeing not only does it impact negativelythe talent attraction and retention. You don't
have the people to fill the jobs, but political clout. We've in the
last census, we've lost the congressperson, so we have less clout in

(18:26):
Washington, DC. That means lessmoney coming to the state, less of
a voice for our citizens. Inthose important conversations, we talked about just
not having the resources to fill jobs, but it impacts our tax base.
You don't have the same amount ofpeople in the state pain and some of
it's just perception. You want tobe a state that's growing and moving forward,
and there could be a negative perceptionwhen you're a state losing population.

(18:51):
So there are other issues that theMichigan Chamber of Commerce is very intimately involved
in. What are your thoughts onMichigan's roads and bridges and what can be
done about our states aging infrastructure.Our thought is people have to finally get
serious and find a solution to thisproblem. This has been lagging investment for
decades. This is not a Republicanor Democrat issue. We've had governors and
legislature on both sides of the politicalaile. This is a political will problem.

(19:15):
We need to spend more money.There are two ways to do it.
You can raise taxes, you cancut spending or something in between.
And we believe that it should bea user base model. That's what we've
always supported. But if you lookat the system now everyone's a user.
I may not drive, but doI get a delivery by Amazon? Do
I use a public transit? Youknow, the goods and services and people

(19:38):
that get transported all around the stateare all impacted. We need a global
solution, but we need to getserious about it because what we're doing is
making the problem exponentially worse. Everyyear that goes by, because every year
we don't have the appropriate investment,that cost just goes up, not only
just inflation, but just materials.We have a large fight right now just

(20:00):
on getting the aggregates we need tobuild in Michigan. We're actively involved in
that. We're part of a coalition. You have a lot of local communities
that are actively fighting against either openingor expanding the sand and gravel mines that
we need to have the material tobuild the roads and fix the bridges.
We're having to import it at atwenty five percent increase in costs, so
that's bad for the taxpayers, we'retransporting it longer, that's bad for everyone

(20:23):
to be doing it that way onthe roads, and it's just not a
realistic outlook on what we should bedoing. We need to solve problems,
and we need to all kind ofstep out of our respective corner where we
say nothing over this line. Weneed to come together and have a real
conversation. That's happening in the legislatureright now. I give a lot of
credit to the legislators who are debatingthis openly and honestly now because this has

(20:48):
to be solved. We need tohave the raw materials. And the Chamber
is also intimately involved in how electricification, electric vehicles and the changing nature of
mobility are affecting our economy, whichis obviously crucial to us in this market,
a state who famously put the worldon wheels. Quote, so what
are your thoughts on the current statusof our electric vehicle investment and what cannons

(21:12):
should be done in Michigan. Yeah, it is great because Michigan we did
put the world on wheels, andnow we have a chance to keep them
there and we just have to makesure we're again we're doing it efficiently and
smartly. It's a great job attraction. The MDC is doing a good job
getting out there, but we alsohave to make sure we know what all
the pitfalls are. Do we havethe talent to service those jobs if we

(21:33):
attract somebody. Is our road systemeven up to snuff to work on that?
But also our electric grid? Howdo we produce the power we need?
What do you do with all thegas pumps that are out there and
transition to charging stations. Does atechnology even exist right now to have a
quick enough charge where somebody can go, Where do they need to subside fifteen

(21:56):
twenty forty five minutes to get thatcharge? They're all but they don't have
to be debilitating issues. They haveto be issues that we have to deal
with. We believe we want tobe at the forefront. We want those
jobs of the future in Michigan.We think that the intellectual power housing it
here in Michigan also brings the manufacturingjobs. So let's make it incubator for
growth here in Michigan. But doit the right way. We can't do

(22:18):
it with grandiose plans and press releases. We have to do it with the
hard work and the policymakers of makingsure where they have the infrastructure necessary.
So we're talking a lot about advocacyand policy. What is your outlook for
the rest of twenty twenty three andwhat should policymakers be focused on In your
opinion, I would say economically,as I talked to our members were cautiously
optimistic about twenty twenty three. We'veyou know, not just COVID, but

(22:41):
some economic challenges, some world geopoliticaldynamics. We've come through that, and
it's because we have a good businesscommunity. We have a strong culture there.
We're optimistic that the recession that we'rein and hopefully won't get too deep.
The data I see Michigan should fairfairly well through this through the summer

(23:03):
and early fall. But we needto make sure we don't have some wild
policy swings, and that's what we'remost concerned with. On the advocacy side,
we had a recent realignment and thelegislative process from Republican to Democrat,
and that's great. Voters made theirvoice heard. But what doesn't work in
the business community is if you're justa wild swinging pendulum back and forth,
because it's that instability that causes problems, and it's hard for people to invest

(23:26):
money if they aren't sure if they'recapital expenditure it's going to be supported with
good policy going forward. So Ithink we need to really focus on infrastructure.
We need to focus on education.The budget process is going on right
now. The most important thing alegislator can work on is the budget process.
Out of the House a week agothey pass an eighty one billion dollar
budget. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of taxpayer dollars,

(23:49):
whether it's coming down from the federalgovernment or taxes levied at the state level.
We need to make sure that thatmoney is being spent efficiently and on
transformational projects. Give it as oneoff political favors. Let's make sure we're
investing in something, a true investmentthat has the ability to have a return
and grow in Michigan in the future. So I hear you have a podcast,

(24:11):
Yes, let's hear about it.No, we're excited about that.
Thank you for bringing up am IBusiness Matters available on all the sites and
I heart Radio, thank you verymuch. The number one site platform out
there and we're proud to be onthat. And what we're trying to do
is in a fifteen minute format,that format where you're on your short commute
to work, you're at a coffeebreak, We're going to bring you interesting

(24:33):
policymakers. We're going to talk aboutthe issues of the day, in the
issues that really impact the business community. And we always try to be practical
problem solvers. That's what our stockand trade is. And as I said
earlier, we believe that we're strongerwhen we're all pulling together and we're just
trying to foster a good network ofconversations. It's not that we're going to
solve It's not the old sitcom whereyou solve the issue in thirty minutes and

(24:56):
you're done for the day. Wejust want to start that conversation and we
want to get people to engage.We feel far too many people are pulling
back from the process and we needmore people who are really leaning in and
making their voice heard. Whatever thatvoice is. Don't be scared to disagree
with somebody, but do it respectfully. As we talked earlier about civility,
we're all going to be better whenwe all embrace the process, because then

(25:18):
we're all invested in it. Sowhat kind of subjects are we talking about
on the podcast? Infrastructure? Wejust had one on mobility, We have
some on local chambers, We havean on electricity, any issues you can
think of. Talent was one,The budget has been a podcast. Anything
that is really impacting the business communityand the citizens of the state we're going
to look at. So if peoplelistening to this podcast have a great idea
for the business community, let usknow and we'd be glad to have it.

(25:41):
It's great. And what's it calledagain, so we can do a
search for it. Am I businessmatters. Am I Business matters. That's
what it is, folks. Sowhat else is coming up with the Chamber
of Commerce, whether it's events orpriority wise, what else you want to
tell us about? Yeah, wedo have events throughout the year. If
you think about the Michigan Chamber,we're kind about three leggage tool We have
our advocacy we talked about. Wehave our services whether you need insurance or

(26:02):
labor law, posters or things ofthat nature we sell, but also events
in trying to make sure we're connectingpeople. Those are our three pillars we
want to protect, connect and strengthin Michigan. And events coming up in
June as our d EI series willbe out there talking about, you know,
how to structure a collaborative workforce environmentand making sure your employees feel supported

(26:22):
and making sure that that's working.But you can go on our website and
see how the other events throughout thesummer and throughout the fall. We'd be
glad to have you. That DIwebsite is a free virtual event. What
other things do you want people toknow about? The Michigan Chamber of Commerce.
Before we wrap it up today,I think what we want most people

(26:44):
to know is if you care aboutbusiness, if you want to support a
champion for the business community, achampion of free enterprise, Michigan Chamber is
a great place to belong. We'realways looking for people who want to be
engaged. As we talked to earlier, one business, one vote. If
you become a member, you're voicecan be heard as long as you want
to raise it. Okay, andwhere do people find out how to become
a member? Am i chamber dotcom? Okay? What's the favorite what's

(27:06):
your favorite thing about what you doat your work? Talking to businesses across
the state, just understanding and learningabout the entrepreneurism and the people who are
doing great things that even haven't beendiscovered yet. They're in their little small
corner of their community and they're makinga real difference. We believe, and
I believe wholeheartedly, if we strengthenour communities, the state gets better.

(27:26):
If we can improve our state,the country gets better, and all feeds
up from the bottom, and wejust need to support each other to all
do better and prosper. Our guesttoday has Ben Jim Holcomb. He's president
and CEO of the Michigan Chamber ofCommerce. Thanks for joining us today,
Jim. Thank you so much forhaving me. This has been light of
the d a community affairs program fromiHeartMedia Detroit. If your organization would like

(27:49):
to get on the program, emailcalling Grant at iHeartMedia dot com. Here
all episodes on this station's podcast page.