July 26, 2023 • 58 mins
Episode 77: Ned Blackhawk
Professor Ned Blackhawk is here to Tell Us The Truth about his incredible new book The Rediscovery of America: Native Peoples and the Unmaking of American History. Listen as Ned
explains:
*You can Subscribe to Tell Us The Truth on all leading podcast apps including the iHeart Radio App, Spreaker and iTunes/Apple Podcasts. Join us on Facebook and Twitter for daily discussion about top news.*
Professor Ned Blackhawk is here to Tell Us The Truth about his incredible new book The Rediscovery of America: Native Peoples and the Unmaking of American History. Listen as Ned
explains:
- Ned's preferred term to be identified as - American Indian
- Why he wrote about five centuries of Native and non-Native histories, from Spanish colonial exploration to the rise of Native American self-determination in the late twentieth century.
- How Casino Gaming helped provide much needed employment and wealth building opportunities for a mostly marginalized American Indian population in the United States.
- Much more
*You can Subscribe to Tell Us The Truth on all leading podcast apps including the iHeart Radio App, Spreaker and iTunes/Apple Podcasts. Join us on Facebook and Twitter for daily discussion about top news.*
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
History educator and author Ned Blackhawk hasknocked it out of the park with his
new book, The Rediscovery of AmericaNative Peoples in the Unmaking of US History,
and he is here this week tolet you know all about it.
My name is E. Duke Bennettand this is tell Us the Truth.
(00:29):
My name is Ned Blackhawk. I'ma professor of history and American Studies at
Yale University and an enrolled member ofthe Timok tribe of Western Shoshone Indians of
Nevada. And I'm here to tellyou the truth. I wrote The Rediscovery
of America to highlight new ways ofthinking about the American past. It's an
overview of Native American history that seeksto remedy the exclusion of Native Americans for
(00:55):
most narratives of American history. Well, this is a conversation that I've been
anticipating and very excited to have.So definitely welcome to tell us the Truth.
And you know, before we delvedeep into the Rediscovery of America,
I got a hash just to makesure that we're clear and especially my audience
members, what is the right terminology? What is the right identification? You
(01:19):
know, people say Native Americans indigenouspeoples, American Indians, and certainly through
the years of researching your work,I've noticed that people have made reference to
you and your culture in all thosedifferent ways. But for you personally,
what would you say is the bestway to identify? You know, there's
no real singular designation for this question, even though I do prefer the term
(01:45):
American Indian because I feel it's veryclear and intelligible for most folks. But
over the last generation or so,as you're indicating, there has been a
turn away from the sometimes difficult,if not limiting nature of the term American
Indian to embrace a more capacious termssuch as Indigenous American or Native peoples,
(02:07):
as I use in the subtitle ofmy book, and that designation a recognition
highlights the diversity of the United Statesand its indigenous peoples, which include not
just American Indians within the contiguous UnitedStates, but also Native Hawaiian, Alaska,
Native, and other indigenous peoples acrossparticularly the American Pacific. That's a
(02:30):
great response, and I appreciate andrespect you for it because I can sympathize
with that. You know, peopleconstantly go back and forth with is it
black, is it African American,and everyone's afraid of saying the wrong thing
or what have you. And it'slike, hey, I'm black, you
know what I mean. African Americancan be any race. We're talking about
(02:54):
geography here, and I know thatwe want to do play on words and
things of that nature. But I'mblack. You identify me as black.
We're moving in the right direction forme personally. So you saying American Indian,
I respect that, and I appreciatethat, and I make note of
that. The rediscovery of America Nativepeople's in the unmaking of US history.
(03:20):
This is interesting. I mean,first and foremost, why does America need
to be rediscovered? What is thewhole concept behind that? Well, it's
somewhat of a plan the term discoveryof the discovery of America, which is
one of the oldest paradigms of Americanhistorical analysis that has largely foregrounded, if
(03:43):
not celebrated, the European encounter withthe Americas. But it's more a recognition
in fact of a incredibly rich anddiverse and exciting profusion of scholarship that has
occurred in the last general ration orso. There have been really almost countless
(04:03):
numbers of histories and studies and findingsthat have fundamentally re oriented how the study
of American history now operates. Andso the title of the book, The
Rediscovery of America, is really arecognition of my indebtedness to this generation of
historians, tribal members, and otherswho have helped rediscover this elemental nature of
(04:29):
American history. You know that it'sinteresting here in twenty twenty three, and
really over the past couple of years, there seems to be far more interest
appetite with going back in time andgetting it right, especially as it relates
to American Indian culture and how ithas affected the shaping of America. You
(04:55):
know, like you said, we'rerediscovering because we're going back and we're you
know, telling the story as itshould be told more accurately. But at
the same time, we have asociety where people are trying to do away
with telling the history as it is, you know, whether it be in
academia where they're trying to ban booksand you know, put the screws to
(05:17):
any kind of teaching because they don'twant they don't want our children to feel
bad about the fact that their ancestorswere horrible to different populations of people,
including American Indians and what have you. How does this work where you have
this interest in your culture, inAmerican culture, true American culture, and
(05:43):
then you have these folks who wantto censor that. How does this work?
I mean, what is the pathto ultimately win over the censors in
order to make sure that the historyis told the way that it's supposed to
be told. Well, that's notan easy question to answer, but I
might say generally that most important histories, or well regarded ones at least,
(06:08):
don't try to prove any kind ofcontemporary social, or political or contemporary issue.
Histories are inherently studies of the pastthat analyze change over time in particular
regions places and try to distill fromthem certain interpretive conclusions or ideas that can
(06:30):
hopefully help us in the present.But it's not really prescriptive, like we
don't study the past in order toenact certain particular programs in the contemporary world.
And the one thing I might sayto people who think that that's how
(06:51):
history looks is to really try tomaybe engage it, because if one actually
looks at it, reads or kindof learns about some of these subject matters.
We see not familiar places or individuals, but often unfamiliar ones, or
(07:12):
strange or often different types of landscapes, even in places that we might think
are familiar. And so I'm reallyexcited about the kind of particular, often
contingent moments of historical development that thisbook kind of has opened for me and
(07:32):
way, and has done so inways that I think would perhaps be surprising,
and maybe it might be helpful tohave an example or two. I
had no idea, for example,or very little idea that prior to the
Puritan settlement of Plymouth in sixteen twenty, there were in fact resident indigenous peoples
(07:56):
from New England in London helping Britishexplorers and mariners identify sites of geographies for
settlement. It's a relatively small number, but it's been identifiable to the scholars
who have studied it. In mybook really is dependent upon these scholars inherently
(08:16):
for its findings and suggestions. Butthese indigenous peoples, most of whom,
if not all of them, areAlgonquian speaking Abenaki People's from main Wampanog people
from the coastlines, and they havebeen taken by various English mariners throughout the
(08:39):
fifteen and early sixteen hundreds, andthey help the English colonists settle and eventually
the Puritan colony itself. As wemay know, there is a resident indigenous
person from the region who's already returnedto the region named to Squantum or Squanto,
and so his biography and the largerhistory of these indigenous peoples who've already
(09:03):
been trafficked essentially or captured and enlisted, one might say, into the kind
of project of English colonization helps shapethe subsequent settlement of the most famous colonial
region of American history, Puritan NewEngland. And so that kind of dynamic,
that kind of historical landscape, thecontingency of these individuals and relationships has
(09:30):
been largely erased from our kind ofnational consciousness, but it helps us see
this process in this world in amuch less familiar and much more complicated way.
Well complicated indeed, I mean thatis a piece of history that is
not something any of us have everbeen taught. So that's fascinating to know
(09:54):
that, you know, American Indianswere in England even before the Puritans.
Wow, it's just one example,but we were trying to ground this larger
conversation in the unfamiliarity of the past. And that's really what great histories do,
is they expose, often pass untakenor highlight new interpretations on subjects.
(10:24):
And there's a small number of scholarswho I cite, and this is in
chapter two of my new book,who've kind of opened up what has become
known as the field of the AtlanticWorld. And it's not just indigenous people
from New England, but largely infact, from the Caribbean and Latin American
or Spanish American world that are heavilytrafficked across the Atlantic world throughout the post
(10:48):
Columbian period from roughly in fourteen ninetythree to sixteen seventy or so. And
one scholar has determined that they're overhalf a million indigenous peoples who are taken
captive or forcibly migrated or forcibly deportedacross this post Columbian landscape. And so
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we don't think of Atlantic slavery inthese terms, but there are indigenous peoples
in Spain petitioning the crown in thefifteen hundreds, long before the English have
ever really seen you North America.Who are you know, products of this
world trying to gain access to resources, essentially trying to get their own freedom
(11:37):
in Spain, having been carried thereas captives. And that would be more
in the first chapter of my book, which is on the Spanish colonial world.
So these are like just small,you know, historical examples from a
vast universe of developments that occurred afterfourteen ninety two that might help us see
American history from a new perspective.Well, let's stay there for a moment
(12:01):
here, because when you think ofall of the because you did a lot
of research, I know you workedon this tirelessly for a while. It's
comprehensive as heck. It's a thickbook, you know. Thank goodness,
I have a copy here and beenreading, and my goodness, you cover
a lot of grounds. Was thereanything else in particular that really jumped out
(12:26):
and surprised you or let you feelthat the readers themselves are going to be
shocked to learn? Maybe shocked isn'tthe right word, but I think people
would be very surprised or potentially startledto see some of the findings that these
chapters try to establish. And ifwe were to stay in the pre national
(12:50):
period, the book is divided intotwelve or is formed by twelve chapters and
divided in half after chapter or sixessentially to two parts. Part one surveys
the history of North America largely priorto the ratification of the US Constitution,
(13:11):
and Part two as a history ofthe United States and the place of Native
people's within it since the Constitution inseventeen eighty seven. And so there's a
lot of argumentation even in that organizationin chronology that tries to ground Native nations
and people's at the center of notjust the pre national period, but the
(13:33):
post national period. And I thinkif anyone were to spend time looking at
the Civil War chapter, for example, which is entitled Collapse in Total War
and surveys the Indigenous West during theCivil War, I think one would come
away with a new understanding of howdeeply transformative the Civil War was in western
(13:56):
North America, because we've largely toldthat tale as one between the North and
the South, between the Confederacy andthe Union, and failed to see not
just the tens of thousands of Indigenouslives that were lost during the war in
western theaters and in western battles betweensettler either federally funded militias and or the
Union Army itself in places like SandCreek and Bosky Redondo and and the Bear
(14:24):
River. These are famous sites ofIndigenous battle and or incarceration. We failed
not just to see that subject,but we fail to see how the war
itself and the aftermath of the CivilWar created this unprecedentedly powerful national government that
for the first time had the authorityof Congress to begin legislating new and far
(14:48):
reaching laws and practices. And thatauthority becomes heavily, heavily imprinted upon the
West with new terrator tories and newforms of federal authority. Reservations and forts
and roads and railroads all become possiblein a sense because of the growing capacity
(15:13):
of the federal government after the CivilWar, when the United States really becomes
for the first time a national,continental, governing state with the capacity to
do many different things. And soI think people would come away perhaps with
a new understanding of that conflict andalso see that the Civil War among certain
(15:35):
Native American tribes was also a civilwar, and particularly in places like Oklahoma,
where large Indian nations like the Cherokee, who had been removed from the
American South had many thousands of citizenswho disagreed with essentially the course that the
nation should take, and so manyCherokees sided with the Confederacy while others fled
(15:56):
north to refugee settlements nearer Union hostsand suffered tremendously and the loss of life
and the kind of civil war withinthe civil war within the Cherokee is I
think a subject that most people outsideof Oklahoma or outside of the Cherokee Nation
might not know much about. Foranyone listening out there, again, there
(16:17):
is a vast amount of history asbeing covered here, you know, the
retelling of American history really and reallygetting it right, providing far more accuracy
as it relates to American Indians andcontributions to the nation as a whole.
One of the things that jumped outat me, and we can relate it
(16:37):
to what's happening in modern times iswhen you talked about expansion and backlash self
determination in the late twentieth century,you talked about the economic challenges that American
Indians have faced in this nation,especially more modern times, and how gaming,
(17:00):
you know, casinos have actually contributedto being the opposite of that,
you know, put food on thetable kept the lights one and what have
you, and kept things going ina more positive direction. There. Talk
to me a little bit about that, because you know, gaming is such
a hot button issue, and evenhere where I'm at in Boston, you
(17:21):
have the tractors who are completely againstit, you have people who are completely
for it, and then you havethe in between. But for American Indians
and from a financial standpoint, talkto me about gaming. Okay. You
know, this is really one ofthe kind of concluding insights that maybe are
(17:41):
one would find at the end ofthis long history. And it was for
me also one of the most revelatory, in part because I teach Native American
history and have to kind of makesense of the contemporary era based on sometimes
less extensive scholar findings. It's hardto write books about the modern era,
(18:03):
for example, but there have beenover the last generation or so lots of
really interesting studies, one of whichI was just totally kind of not quite
dumbfounded, but startled, you know, shocked, you might say, to
find out that American Indians. Andthis is from my colleague at UCLA,
Ning Randall, a Key's kind ofcollective works. He's an economist who does
(18:27):
a lot of this type of economicanalysis. He's helped me see this history
and kind of historical perspective, andyou really can't understand the evolution of modern
Indian gaming outside of these like largerlegal and economic contexts. But in the
nineteen seventies, American Indians were beginningto fashion incredibly innovative economic practices and policies.
(18:59):
Really for the first time in contemporaryor modern American history. Tribal communities
during and after the Johnson Great Societyprograms were receiving new grants, initiatives,
and resources essentially from the federal governmentthat that had historically not prioritize Indigenous communities.
(19:25):
And this is partly the logics ofprior policies known as termination that attempted
to politically assimilate tribal reservation lands intocounty and state jurisdictions. Tribal members,
as I write about, fought thatpolicy and were successful in getting what is
(19:45):
known as restoration bills passed to restoreessentially their tribal sovereignty within the federalist system.
As they're doing that, various kindof Great Society and early Nixon and
Ford and Carter era policies and programsare providing resources for housing, for economic
(20:07):
development for schools, and tribes arestarting to use those resources to build for
the first time their own autonomous schoolingsystems, to expand housing for their tribal
members, to initiate various types ofeconomic opportunities. This sounds kind of familiar
if one is somewhat aware of Indianaffairs over the last fifty or six years.
(20:34):
As a kind of form of selfdetermination that becomes codified by Congress in
nineteen seventy in the nineteen seventies undera series of bills, including the American
Indian Self Determination and Educational Assistance Act. It's one of the statutes or laws
that the Red Power movement or theIndian Indigenous Rights movement kind of helped initiate.
(21:00):
However, by the late seventies andearly eighties, when the Depression,
various recessions had kind of fallen uponthe United States, the new Congress in
Washington in the early eighties and presidentialadministration started cutting back a lot of federal
funding. And the shocking statistic thatI learned and this research or this article
(21:22):
by Randall Akey and some of hisco authors, was that Native Americans lost
money per capita during the nineteen eightiesthen they had during the nineteen seventies,
which is a complete like inversion ofour understandings of how the eighties and seventies
worked. When Reaganomics and kind ofsupplied side economics provided such kind of incredible
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boosts and deregulation of corporate and variousstate industries created such a kind of profusion
of opportunities economically for the nation asa whole. Well, this didn't happen
in Native America, and in fact, the opposite happened because so many tribes
have been borrowing money to continue buildingthe type of infrastructure and government kind of
(22:07):
facilities that they envisioned someday, havingthat they didn't have access to capital.
And so what do people who don'thave access to capital do. They turn
to less often regulated and less kindof sometimes socially acceptable forms of often deregulated
(22:27):
capital lending or leaning, which includesblack market economics, on various other types
of what we might consider to besomewhat elicit or legal activities. And those
tribes started experimenting with using their owntribal sovereign authority outside of the tax systems
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and outside of the jurisdiction of incomeregulations that states have on their own citizens.
Tribes are not subject to state jurisdictionsin American law, largely speaking,
there's some criminal law exceptions that Congresshas established in the late twentieth century.
So many of these tribal leaders startdoing things to try to maximize their comparative
(23:15):
advantage jurisdictionally to raise money and inplaces like southern California or in southern Florida,
tribal leaders see how nonprofit organizations likechurches, synagogues and other nonprofits use
bingo to raise revenues for themselves inCalifornia. In fact, you may not
(23:36):
know this, it's not well known. There are legal card rooms for many
municipalities in the state. Many statesare also generating revenue for themselves through various
state lottery systems in the eighties,and so all these entities are using essentially
various creative measures to find revenue.And so when the tribes start doing bingo
(24:00):
initiatives in Florida or card rooms andother gaming initiatives in California, they start
falling under the careful watch of localand state leaders who try to shut them
down and say things like, youcan't award these types of bingo awards at
(24:21):
your bingo halls in Florida. Theseare the snowbird communities that many Northerners retreat
to in the winter months, andso there's actually a lot of resources that
are possible in these areas. Andso the tribes start suing or filing injunctions
against the seizure or closure of theirfacilities and eventually win a Supreme Court case
(24:41):
called Kabazonie California that essentially provides constitutionalclarity over the gaming sovereign authority that tribes
have. This court ruling from nineteennineteen eighty seven is followed by a law
called the Indian Gaming reg Dilatory Actor IGRA in nineteen eighty eight that sets
(25:03):
in motion a compact system where statesand tribes have to work out how these
gaming initiatives will essentially be initiated.And no one could have foreseen the growth
of these facilities and revenue streams atthe time, but they've become, as
you're suggesting, a kind of billiondollar industry from where once we're very small
(25:25):
scale initiatives. We shouldn't lose sightof the fact, however, that most
tribes do not run successful or kindof heavily profitable gaming initiatives, and only
a small percentage of tribes that actuallyrun gaming facilities. See the type of
astronomical profits that many kind of assumedto be present in Native America, and
(25:48):
not too far from here, onecould look at, for example, the
Machontucket Peaquock community to see I thinkone of the world's largest casinos at Foxwood's,
having gone through real difficult economic upsand downs essentially, so that kind
of volatility that kind of created thekind of gaming revolution in Indian country is
still there and it's just not aswell known. In a perfect scenario,
(26:15):
what do you hope folks gain fromreading your book here? Because again,
there's so much history, There's somuch information that quite frankly, the majority
of us have never known before.You know, this is this is going
back to school. Really, ina perfect world, what can we walk
away with after reading the book?Ideally, I would hope that we as
(26:37):
a nation could be much more sensitiveand informed about the essential place that Native
Americans occupy in American historical development,it's really impossible to understand the evolution and
expansion of First European settlements and thenlater the United States without a sufficient not
(27:03):
just understanding, but really a kindof commitment to seeing indigenous nations and people's
as central actors within this larger tale. We kind of have to move past
the somewhat Eurocentric paradigms that have kindof formed American historical development and prioritize a
(27:25):
much more inclusive, multiracial perspective tosee all of America's historical communities as central
participants in the epic of America.Well, I'll tell you right now,
it's definitely something that I recommend foreveryone listening out there, not just for
yourselves, but also for young peoplein your life. You know, this
(27:48):
is a fantastic retelling of the historyand again at what I like to call
a more accurate telling of our historyas a nation actually as relates to American
Indians, Native Americans, indigenous peoples, however you want to say it.
There So, without further ado ned, what is the best way that our
(28:10):
listeners can get a copy of theRediscovery of America. Well, it should
be available online at the University Presswebsite. It's I believe also an Amazon
and likely in many local area bookstores. And how about yourself, I mean,
(28:30):
you know, this is not yourfirst rodeo. You've authored at least
four books and countless articles and thingsof that nature. You're a professor history.
There, what's the best way thatfolks can keep up with you and
just stay dialed into what you havegoing on. Yes, I've co authored
(28:51):
two works and single author of twoothers and indigenous history more broadly, and
I don't quite always have the timeto reply to direct emails, but we
do run a pretty active working groupcalled the Yale Group for the Study of
Native America that has an active websitethat highlights things are doing. We've been
(29:14):
involved in some legal advocacy efforts,we have been active at various museums curatorial
undertakings that we try to partner withtribal communities as best as we can,
and so that website, the YaleGroup for the Study of Native America highlights
some of these efforts. Well nedlisten, I truly believe that the rediscovery
(29:36):
of america Native peoples and the unmakingof US history is a significant contribution to
our nation, and I really appreciatethe time and the effort that you put
into this book, and just ingeneral, I appreciate you being brave enough
to continue to lead on this issue. You know, our history matters,
(29:59):
and the fact that we have educatorslike yourself who are willing to keep sounding
the alarm and keep putting it outthere, it's great and hopefully you're inspiring
the next generation to continue to dothis. So thank you for telling us
the truth. It's been my pleasure, fantastic conversation there with Ned Blackhawk,
(30:21):
And I'll tell you, folks,when we talk about history, it's so
important to know the facts, thetruth about where we've been and what has
happened to all of us in orderto make informed decisions about how we address
issues of today and how we setthe table for how to address issues of
(30:45):
tomorrow. That's just the way itis, right And it's interesting because,
you know, talking to Ned andreading the rediscovery of America Native People's and
the unmaking of us history. Justthis whole exercise here, it's got me
to thinking voting is such an importantthing that we all take for granted,
(31:11):
and certainly some of us far morethan others. But I think we all
take it for granted. We alldon't pay enough attention to the significance of
voting and how it can impact ourlives in so many different ways. Until
something that we don't want to happenhappens, right, until we take a
(31:36):
loss, we don't realize the powerof our vote. And it's wild because
think back to the fact that wehad Donald Trump as president for four years,
four years. What happened not onlyin those four years, but what
(31:57):
had happened in that time period that'sstill affecting us today. In twenty twenty
three alone, we have the rollbackof Roe v. Wade, and now
we have the rollback of affirmative action. This is wild, right, just
(32:20):
those two issues alone. How dothose two issues alone affect everyone's life instantly?
Right, These are things that youwould never thought would change in your
lifetime. And yet literally having DonaldTrump as president and you know, the
(32:45):
perfect storm of so much turnover onthe Supreme Court, and then he as
president Trump being responsible for nominating peoplewho are more in line with I'm you're
going to call it conservative thinking.This is extreme thinking, in my opinion,
(33:06):
has resulted in a Supreme Court thatis completely out of whack. You
know, they're viewing the country asa body, the majority as a body,
and making decisions the majority as abody in a manner that is literally
undoing the few things that we havethat make it possible for inclusion and diversity
(33:32):
and the ability to live life ina manner that makes it possible for the
most amount of people to have opportunity. They're rolling all that stuff back,
right, and everybody's affected by thewhole notion of Roe v. Wade getting
rolled back. I mean, somany states are making it illegal to have
(33:54):
abortions, and I'm telling you rightnow, that is a recipe for disaster
in my opinion, and we've coveredthat here on the show. But my
goodness, I saw an issue wherecertain military personnel who are stationed in states
(34:15):
that have been in power to makeit illegal to have abortions. What happens
if they need to have an abortionfor one reason or another, They're going
to have to take time off,So they're losing their time in the military
in their personal time that they cantake off on their dime, and they're
(34:36):
going to have to go and travelto states that where abortion is legal and
have the abortion there. And youknow, these folks who, again I'm
not going to call them conservatives,they're more extremists. In my opinion,
they want to make sure that notaxpayer money is even paying for these military
(34:59):
folks to try I will anywhere havean abortion, etc. Etc. Just
you know, the aftershock, theafter effects of all these decisions. It's
incredible. Think about the whole thingwith the affirmative action. You roll it
back in these colleges, but whereis it going to end? Right?
Every workplace has to take a lookat that ruling, and then they have
(35:22):
to take a look at their policyand gear up because the fight is on
our hands here. The playing fieldwas never leveled, and affirmative action certainly
made an attempt to level it,but taken that away, it's going to
be far less level Right, everyworkplace, including government. So much is
(35:47):
going to change because of that,and in my opinion, not for the
better. You have to vote tosit around and complain about the state of
affairs. When you have a voteand you've chosen not to utilize that vote,
(36:08):
I don't know what to tell you. Our education system is being incredibly
attacked, and we see it downin Florida, and the guy who's the
governor there on descent as he's runningfor president of United States right on the
Republican ticket. This guy doesn't hedoesn't want anything that he calls quote unquote
(36:31):
woke, which you know, thisis buzzword here. The target is black
and brown folks, specifically, youknow, Latin American folk. But that
trickles down certainly a book like TheRediscovery of America. Do you think those
folks down in Florida are going tobe supportive of something like this being put
(36:55):
in any curriculum taught to any schoolchildre in Florida. I don't think so,
and not because there's anything wrong withthis book. It's a fantastic book.
I read it myself. I learneda lot. I thought it was
fascinating to learn about the significant contributionsto the makeup, the building, the
(37:17):
foundation of this nation that we callthe United States of America today. American
Indians, Native Americans, indigenous peoples, whatever you want to call them,
they are a significant part of thehistory. The history does not exist without
them, and we've erased them.We don't learn enough about their contributions to
(37:45):
our history. But yet they've beenthere at every turn, and The Rediscovery
of America points that out in avery clear and concise way. There's no
question about it. It is whatit is, right, But you have
folks who want to take information likethis and not make it available to those
(38:09):
who need it the most, especiallyour young people who are forming their opinions
and their understanding of the world aroundthem. And you know how to move
in certain directions as a result ofthe information at they're learning. That's the
whole purpose of school. It's thewhole purpose of an education. Right.
Hopefully you learn enough to make informeddecisions when you become an adult. Right.
(38:32):
They don't even want these kids toknow about this history if it's not
all sunshine and lollipops. They don'twant these kids to know the truth about
how American Indians, Native Americans,indigenous people have been treated in these United
States throughout the history. But theycouldn't get away with that, these elected
(38:58):
officials and these folks who will pushand that agenda, they couldn't get away
with that if more people were votingagainst them. So you have to ask,
well, what is my contribution?Am I doing enough? And if
you're choosing not to go to theballot box and cast your vote in all
(39:20):
of these elections and every single electionthat is available, to you, municipal,
state, federal, I don't carewhat it is, dog catcher.
If you are not voting, Idon't know what to tell you, because
this whole nonsense and this myth ofmy vote doesn't matter and nothing is going
(39:40):
to change. We just saw inthis year alone how much change can happen,
and at the heart of it,votes are what made it possible for
those change to happen, either foror against. I get passionate about this
stuff because it's serious, man,it's serious, and I know a lot
(40:02):
of people listen. The beauty ofbeing someone that does a show like tell
Us the Truth, and being someoneyou know, in my everyday life that
people know. I keep myself informed. You know, I'm a news addict,
so to speak. I'm constantly reading, listening to, or watching the
(40:23):
news. I stay in the know. I have alerts on my phone.
People email me stuff. I getinformation. I get information before it even
pops up in your newspaper, onyour TV. I get information. I
stay in the know on what's goingon around us. So because of that,
people have conversations with me, askmy opinion and things of that nature.
(40:44):
And I can't tell you how manypeople flat out admit I don't vote.
It doesn't matter. My vote doesn'tmatter, it's never going to change.
I voted one time and not enoughchange, So I'm not voting anymore.
What's the point. I can't tellyou how many people say that to
(41:04):
me. It's incredible grown adults,mind you, it's incredible, and it's
interesting to turn around and see thesesame grown adults right now. Roe v.
Wade was one thing. Affirmative Actionwas a whole other level of something
(41:27):
right. And then seeing de Santisand he's running, and then even folks
who may not be as familiar withhim to go back and look at his
record and just from an education standpoint, what he's doing down in Florida.
Disney, okay, Disney is lookingto leave Florida because of Ronda Santis and
(41:49):
the ridiculous things that he's done downthere and how he's treated people, Black
people, Latino people, so peopleof color, just in general, women,
LGBTQ, plus Jewish people. Thisguy is going down the list of
some of the negative policy that he'spushing and he because he has the right
(42:12):
people in place to support his negativepolicy, they're pushing it through in that
state. It's going from paradise toa hellhole in my opinion. And I
know I'm going to catch a lotof heat for saying that, but that's
okay. This is tell us thetruth. This isn't This isn't sunshine and
lollipops all the time. Yes,there's a lot of positive things that happen
(42:35):
in life. Certainly, the rediscoveryof America by ned Blackhawk is one of
the most positive things that have happenedin my life. Just in the past
two months, I've learned so muchabout the contributions of American Indians, Native
Americans, Indigenous peoples, whatever youwant to call it. I've learned so
(42:55):
much about our brothers and sisters andhow they've contributed to this nation and really
help me reflect on how they've beenerased from the history of this nation that
I feel better informed about how toapproach issues that are more specific to our
brothers and sisters within the Native culture, in the Native communities and what have
(43:17):
you. Right, So, certainlythere's a lot of positive things that go
on in life. Every single day. Wake up every day. The fact
that you're breathing, you're walking,your talking, you're alive. That's a
positive thing. But I gotta tellyou there are some challenges out there,
and certainly, when you don't vote, you are mounting the challenges on your
(43:43):
should There's that much more. Andjust because you can't feel it in the
moment, that doesn't mean that it'snot there. And one day it just
turns around and slaps you in theface. Who cares? Who's on the
Supreme Court turns into Oh my god, they just got rid of all of
(44:05):
the diversity, equity and inclusion scholarshipsat such and such university. Oh my
god, they just laid off ourwhole diversity team. They're rolling back all
of these policies in order to makeworkplaces, make schools less racist. They're
(44:29):
rolling that stuff back because the SupremeCourt has made it clear that you can't
do that. What I'm telling youguys, in ladies, everybody, we
got to get serious about this stuffand we have to ask ourselves what is
our contribution and are we doing enough? It's a real thing. Education is
(44:57):
the key, So you got yougotta take the time to actually learn something
out there, do your research onyour own, don't just listen to somebody
else all the time. But certainlytrust, but verify right, and then
ultimately action, and certainly voting isas important as anything that you do in
your life. If you do nothingelse to contribute to society, if you
(45:25):
do nothing else for anyone else,certainly voting is plenty that you can do.
And I'm not telling you who tovote for. But I'm talking to
the people who are complaining and whoare concerned, and who are upset about
the state of affairs in our societyright now. This is all the results
(45:46):
of voting or not voting, I'mtelling you. And the worst part about
it is we ain't seen nothing yet. There's more to come, the things
that the Supreme Court are working onright now to limit the rights of so
many of us. And you can'tstay in your little bubble and think that
(46:09):
you're safe, right. I amnot an American Indian. I'm not I'm
not a Native American Indigenous. I'mnot that. And I did the DNA
testing thing, and I was actuallysurprised because people of my family always said
that we have Native American in ourDNA in our blood. My results didn't
(46:32):
show that. Now there could bereasons for that. Maybe there aren't enough
Native American folk that have been testedand put in the database, et cetera,
et cetera. So maybe the resultsare just inaccurate or legitimately, maybe
I just don't have Native in myDNA, right, So do I stay
in my bubble and not be concernedabout issues that are facing Native American folk,
(46:55):
American Indians, indigenous people's specifically,because hey, not my problem.
I'm not one of them. SoI shouldn't care about the rates of employment,
the rates of suicide, the ratesof alcoholism and addiction in general.
I shouldn't care about the fact thatwe've had a complete genocide of their people's.
(47:16):
I shouldn't care. I shouldn't carethat to this day they still continue
to be discriminated against, and hadit not been for gaming, things would
be even worse. Not to saythat anything is perfect, It's far from
it. But as you heard fromNed Blackhawk, and he perfectly outlined,
and the rediscovery of America, gamingchanged the game for a lot of a
(47:42):
Native American folks, American Indian folks, indigenous folks. So I'm supposed to
just stay in my little bubble andnot pay attention because they not my problem.
Okay, fine, but eventually they'regoing to get to me right.
So, if you didn't care whenNative American folk were attack, when Latino
(48:07):
folk were attack, when black folkswore attack, when women were attacked,
when the LGBTQ folks are attacked,when the Muslims were attacked, not the
Jewish people being attacked. If youdidn't care because it's not me, don't
worry. It's going to catch upto you too. You will find yourself
(48:30):
being affected one way or another,which is why you have to be proactive
from the very beginning. I'm tellingyou this is this is not a choice,
this is a necessity. Here wehave to do this. The next
time somebody says to you, oh, may and I don't vote, I
(48:52):
don't vote. Nothing's gonna change you. Challenge that person. You say to
them, well, damn God forbid, something happens to a loved one or
to you. If it's possible,and for one reason or another, you
absolutely cannot give birth, but youbecome pregnant and you must get an abortion.
(49:19):
But here we go where all thatstuff is rolling back, and they're
outlawing abortions and making it illegal,turn you into a criminal if you do,
in fact have an abortion. They'rerolling back contraception in a lot of
states, because it's a trickle downeffect, right, But he's just going
to keep going. This is whathappens when you don't vote, huh,
(49:46):
the whole affirmative action thing. Thisis what happens when you don't vote the
whole banning books. And we don'twant our kids to feel bad about the
history of their ancestors and what haveyou. Okay, so now we're just
not going to learn about the procitiesthat have happened in this nation and how
we can have a system in whichso many people have so much and even
(50:07):
more people have so little. Entireraces of people have a far less net
worth than entire races of other people. That's not a coincidence. A lot
of history went into that, alot of things had to happen. This
was manufactured. It's on purpose inorder to keep our people's uneven. And
(50:32):
no matter how hard you work,it still comes back to the same thing.
I could work every job in theworld, I can make as much
money as I can, but mywhite male equivalent is still going to be
worth more than me, is stillgoing to be able to walk into places
and get alone faster than me.It's still going to be considered less suspect
(50:54):
as I am. That's a systemworking against me and working for them.
We need to know that there isa history of that. Where did that
begin? Why is it still goingon? In order to understand how we
can change these things, you don'tbury your head in the sand. You
(51:19):
take the time to get educated,you learn, you come together with folks,
and then you address the issue.That's real life because if you don't
do these things, then you're oneof the people standing around wondering how the
hell did that happen? When youfind out that this is illegal and now
(51:43):
you're about to lose your job,and that you know, you start finding
back all these things. You startfinding out all these things are rolled back.
That's also real life. I'm tellingyou, I think about this a
lot because it is fascinating. Somuch change has happened, and again you
have to look at how did weget here? One president in four years
(52:10):
has completely restructured the foreseeable future inour nation so many things. And now
this guy is being pursued because,oh, by the way, he he's
a very good chance he was acriminal the whole time. Now he's gonna
have his day in Courton, we'llknow for sure. But you know it
(52:31):
ain't looking too good. What doesthat tell you? You mean to tell
me you didn't vote, and thenyou're surprised at what's going on. Okay,
well, this is where we're attelling you folks, we got to
(52:52):
smarten up here, we got toget serious, and we have to lean
into works like the Discovery of Americabecause they assist in us having a better
understanding of where we go from here, what we should be focusing on in
(53:14):
the present time. I always sayit, you want to get educated,
so you know what to ask peoplewho are running for office. It's an
election year in some way, shapeor form. Every every year. Every
year is an election year. Somebody'srunning for something. What does it mean
to vote for somebody? Well,if there are issues that are affecting your
(53:35):
life, you ask them specifically aboutthat. What is your stance on such
and such right, and then youhold them accountable if you give them your
vote, because you believe they're goingto address to such and such. And
then they get in the office andthey don't address to such and such.
They gotta go back to the drawingboard. Vote for somebody else. That's
the way it's supposed to be.There's no quick fix. There's a lot
(53:59):
of effort, but it's worth itbecause I'm telling you right now, that
is how we get to a pointwhere we stop things like a president who
is able to reshape the nation throughwho they put on the Supreme Court,
who is now rolling back many ofthe things that make it possible for our
(54:22):
society to operate in a manner that'sequal right, or at least far more
even or equal than it would bewithout these things in place. Everybody is
under attack with this stuff. It'samazing. It's amazing. So there's that.
(54:44):
I got on a big soapbox withthis stuff here. But folks,
I'm telling you, man, Iam concerned about where we're going from here,
and we're going to continue to talkabout this. I'm concerned far too
many of us are not doing ourpart. I don't care who you are.
If you're eighteen or over and you'relegally eligible to vote, there is
(55:05):
no excuse for you not voting.There's no excuse. You have to do
it. Everyone is depending on this. Everything that's going on in your life
will be affected one way or anotherby this. Some of the things you
can see when it's coming. Otherthings, it's just going to knock you
over, but it's going to happen. So there's that. Tell us the
(55:28):
Truth on Facebook, on Twitter,Instagram, tell us the Truth dot duke
at gmail dot com. Let meknow what you think. I am I
off base here with the voting thing. Should we just sit back and just
let stuff happen around us? Becausewhatever? Should we not contribute? Should
we not try to make this nationa better place? Should we not leave
(55:49):
this nation better than whatever it wasbefore we were born? Let me know.
I know that there are a lotof detractors and people who disagree.
I know that there are people whobenefit from dismantling safeguards and things that promote
diversity and opportunity, what have you. They want this chaos. People like
(56:15):
Trump have a lot of support,right and this isn't a Republican or a
Democrat thing. I'm neither one ofthose. We all know that. I've
said that at nauseum on this show. I don't do gangs. I don't
belong to a political party. I'mfortunate enough where I live in Massachusetts.
You know, as a commonwealth,we have the option of being quote unquote
(56:37):
undeclared party. I don't have tosubscribe to that. I just vote the
issues. But I vote. Yousay that again, I vote? So
what about you? I know someof you saying, wife vote too.
Who do you think you I'm nottalking to you. Don't worry. I'm
(56:58):
talking to what I'm talking to.You know, I'm sure you know.
Some of the folks I'm talking to. Playlist for them. They need to
hear it. They need to heara man that blackhawk as well, but
they need to hear this part forsure. Vote please, you got something
to say all the time when thingshappen. Where were you when it was
time to vote? Okay? Sonext time, be kind to yourselves and
(57:24):
be kind to others. This isE. Duke Bennett and you've been listening
to tell Us the Truth. TellUs the Truth is produced in Boston in
association with iHeartMedia and WBZ News Radio.
History educator and author Ned Blackhawk hasknocked it out of the park with his
new book, The Rediscovery of AmericaNative Peoples in the Unmaking of US History,
and he is here this week tolet you know all about it.
My name is E. Duke Bennettand this is tell Us the Truth.
(00:29):
My name is Ned Blackhawk. I'ma professor of history and American Studies at
Yale University and an enrolled member ofthe Timok tribe of Western Shoshone Indians of
Nevada. And I'm here to tellyou the truth. I wrote The Rediscovery
of America to highlight new ways ofthinking about the American past. It's an
overview of Native American history that seeksto remedy the exclusion of Native Americans for
(00:55):
most narratives of American history. Well, this is a conversation that I've been
anticipating and very excited to have.So definitely welcome to tell us the Truth.
And you know, before we delvedeep into the Rediscovery of America,
I got a hash just to makesure that we're clear and especially my audience
members, what is the right terminology? What is the right identification? You
(01:19):
know, people say Native Americans indigenouspeoples, American Indians, and certainly through
the years of researching your work,I've noticed that people have made reference to
you and your culture in all thosedifferent ways. But for you personally,
what would you say is the bestway to identify? You know, there's
no real singular designation for this question, even though I do prefer the term
(01:45):
American Indian because I feel it's veryclear and intelligible for most folks. But
over the last generation or so,as you're indicating, there has been a
turn away from the sometimes difficult,if not limiting nature of the term American
Indian to embrace a more capacious termssuch as Indigenous American or Native peoples,
(02:07):
as I use in the subtitle ofmy book, and that designation a recognition
highlights the diversity of the United Statesand its indigenous peoples, which include not
just American Indians within the contiguous UnitedStates, but also Native Hawaiian, Alaska,
Native, and other indigenous peoples acrossparticularly the American Pacific. That's a
(02:30):
great response, and I appreciate andrespect you for it because I can sympathize
with that. You know, peopleconstantly go back and forth with is it
black, is it African American,and everyone's afraid of saying the wrong thing
or what have you. And it'slike, hey, I'm black, you
know what I mean. African Americancan be any race. We're talking about
(02:54):
geography here, and I know thatwe want to do play on words and
things of that nature. But I'mblack. You identify me as black.
We're moving in the right direction forme personally. So you saying American Indian,
I respect that, and I appreciatethat, and I make note of
that. The rediscovery of America Nativepeople's in the unmaking of US history.
(03:20):
This is interesting. I mean,first and foremost, why does America need
to be rediscovered? What is thewhole concept behind that? Well, it's
somewhat of a plan the term discoveryof the discovery of America, which is
one of the oldest paradigms of Americanhistorical analysis that has largely foregrounded, if
(03:43):
not celebrated, the European encounter withthe Americas. But it's more a recognition
in fact of a incredibly rich anddiverse and exciting profusion of scholarship that has
occurred in the last general ration orso. There have been really almost countless
(04:03):
numbers of histories and studies and findingsthat have fundamentally re oriented how the study
of American history now operates. Andso the title of the book, The
Rediscovery of America, is really arecognition of my indebtedness to this generation of
historians, tribal members, and otherswho have helped rediscover this elemental nature of
(04:29):
American history. You know that it'sinteresting here in twenty twenty three, and
really over the past couple of years, there seems to be far more interest
appetite with going back in time andgetting it right, especially as it relates
to American Indian culture and how ithas affected the shaping of America. You
(04:55):
know, like you said, we'rerediscovering because we're going back and we're you
know, telling the story as itshould be told more accurately. But at
the same time, we have asociety where people are trying to do away
with telling the history as it is, you know, whether it be in
academia where they're trying to ban booksand you know, put the screws to
(05:17):
any kind of teaching because they don'twant they don't want our children to feel
bad about the fact that their ancestorswere horrible to different populations of people,
including American Indians and what have you. How does this work where you have
this interest in your culture, inAmerican culture, true American culture, and
(05:43):
then you have these folks who wantto censor that. How does this work?
I mean, what is the pathto ultimately win over the censors in
order to make sure that the historyis told the way that it's supposed to
be told. Well, that's notan easy question to answer, but I
might say generally that most important histories, or well regarded ones at least,
(06:08):
don't try to prove any kind ofcontemporary social, or political or contemporary issue.
Histories are inherently studies of the pastthat analyze change over time in particular
regions places and try to distill fromthem certain interpretive conclusions or ideas that can
(06:30):
hopefully help us in the present.But it's not really prescriptive, like we
don't study the past in order toenact certain particular programs in the contemporary world.
And the one thing I might sayto people who think that that's how
(06:51):
history looks is to really try tomaybe engage it, because if one actually
looks at it, reads or kindof learns about some of these subject matters.
We see not familiar places or individuals, but often unfamiliar ones, or
(07:12):
strange or often different types of landscapes, even in places that we might think
are familiar. And so I'm reallyexcited about the kind of particular, often
contingent moments of historical development that thisbook kind of has opened for me and
(07:32):
way, and has done so inways that I think would perhaps be surprising,
and maybe it might be helpful tohave an example or two. I
had no idea, for example,or very little idea that prior to the
Puritan settlement of Plymouth in sixteen twenty, there were in fact resident indigenous peoples
(07:56):
from New England in London helping Britishexplorers and mariners identify sites of geographies for
settlement. It's a relatively small number, but it's been identifiable to the scholars
who have studied it. In mybook really is dependent upon these scholars inherently
(08:16):
for its findings and suggestions. Butthese indigenous peoples, most of whom,
if not all of them, areAlgonquian speaking Abenaki People's from main Wampanog people
from the coastlines, and they havebeen taken by various English mariners throughout the
(08:39):
fifteen and early sixteen hundreds, andthey help the English colonists settle and eventually
the Puritan colony itself. As wemay know, there is a resident indigenous
person from the region who's already returnedto the region named to Squantum or Squanto,
and so his biography and the largerhistory of these indigenous peoples who've already
(09:03):
been trafficked essentially or captured and enlisted, one might say, into the kind
of project of English colonization helps shapethe subsequent settlement of the most famous colonial
region of American history, Puritan NewEngland. And so that kind of dynamic,
that kind of historical landscape, thecontingency of these individuals and relationships has
(09:30):
been largely erased from our kind ofnational consciousness, but it helps us see
this process in this world in amuch less familiar and much more complicated way.
Well complicated indeed, I mean thatis a piece of history that is
not something any of us have everbeen taught. So that's fascinating to know
(09:54):
that, you know, American Indianswere in England even before the Puritans.
Wow, it's just one example,but we were trying to ground this larger
conversation in the unfamiliarity of the past. And that's really what great histories do,
is they expose, often pass untakenor highlight new interpretations on subjects.
(10:24):
And there's a small number of scholarswho I cite, and this is in
chapter two of my new book,who've kind of opened up what has become
known as the field of the AtlanticWorld. And it's not just indigenous people
from New England, but largely infact, from the Caribbean and Latin American
or Spanish American world that are heavilytrafficked across the Atlantic world throughout the post
(10:48):
Columbian period from roughly in fourteen ninetythree to sixteen seventy or so. And
one scholar has determined that they're overhalf a million indigenous peoples who are taken
captive or forcibly migrated or forcibly deportedacross this post Columbian landscape. And so
(11:11):
we don't think of Atlantic slavery inthese terms, but there are indigenous peoples
in Spain petitioning the crown in thefifteen hundreds, long before the English have
ever really seen you North America.Who are you know, products of this
world trying to gain access to resources, essentially trying to get their own freedom
(11:37):
in Spain, having been carried thereas captives. And that would be more
in the first chapter of my book, which is on the Spanish colonial world.
So these are like just small,you know, historical examples from a
vast universe of developments that occurred afterfourteen ninety two that might help us see
American history from a new perspective.Well, let's stay there for a moment
(12:01):
here, because when you think ofall of the because you did a lot
of research, I know you workedon this tirelessly for a while. It's
comprehensive as heck. It's a thickbook, you know. Thank goodness,
I have a copy here and beenreading, and my goodness, you cover
a lot of grounds. Was thereanything else in particular that really jumped out
(12:26):
and surprised you or let you feelthat the readers themselves are going to be
shocked to learn? Maybe shocked isn'tthe right word, but I think people
would be very surprised or potentially startledto see some of the findings that these
chapters try to establish. And ifwe were to stay in the pre national
(12:50):
period, the book is divided intotwelve or is formed by twelve chapters and
divided in half after chapter or sixessentially to two parts. Part one surveys
the history of North America largely priorto the ratification of the US Constitution,
(13:11):
and Part two as a history ofthe United States and the place of Native
people's within it since the Constitution inseventeen eighty seven. And so there's a
lot of argumentation even in that organizationin chronology that tries to ground Native nations
and people's at the center of notjust the pre national period, but the
(13:33):
post national period. And I thinkif anyone were to spend time looking at
the Civil War chapter, for example, which is entitled Collapse in Total War
and surveys the Indigenous West during theCivil War, I think one would come
away with a new understanding of howdeeply transformative the Civil War was in western
(13:56):
North America, because we've largely toldthat tale as one between the North and
the South, between the Confederacy andthe Union, and failed to see not
just the tens of thousands of Indigenouslives that were lost during the war in
western theaters and in western battles betweensettler either federally funded militias and or the
Union Army itself in places like SandCreek and Bosky Redondo and and the Bear
(14:24):
River. These are famous sites ofIndigenous battle and or incarceration. We failed
not just to see that subject,but we fail to see how the war
itself and the aftermath of the CivilWar created this unprecedentedly powerful national government that
for the first time had the authorityof Congress to begin legislating new and far
(14:48):
reaching laws and practices. And thatauthority becomes heavily, heavily imprinted upon the
West with new terrator tories and newforms of federal authority. Reservations and forts
and roads and railroads all become possiblein a sense because of the growing capacity
(15:13):
of the federal government after the CivilWar, when the United States really becomes
for the first time a national,continental, governing state with the capacity to
do many different things. And soI think people would come away perhaps with
a new understanding of that conflict andalso see that the Civil War among certain
(15:35):
Native American tribes was also a civilwar, and particularly in places like Oklahoma,
where large Indian nations like the Cherokee, who had been removed from the
American South had many thousands of citizenswho disagreed with essentially the course that the
nation should take, and so manyCherokees sided with the Confederacy while others fled
(15:56):
north to refugee settlements nearer Union hostsand suffered tremendously and the loss of life
and the kind of civil war withinthe civil war within the Cherokee is I
think a subject that most people outsideof Oklahoma or outside of the Cherokee Nation
might not know much about. Foranyone listening out there, again, there
(16:17):
is a vast amount of history asbeing covered here, you know, the
retelling of American history really and reallygetting it right, providing far more accuracy
as it relates to American Indians andcontributions to the nation as a whole.
One of the things that jumped outat me, and we can relate it
(16:37):
to what's happening in modern times iswhen you talked about expansion and backlash self
determination in the late twentieth century,you talked about the economic challenges that American
Indians have faced in this nation,especially more modern times, and how gaming,
(17:00):
you know, casinos have actually contributedto being the opposite of that,
you know, put food on thetable kept the lights one and what have
you, and kept things going ina more positive direction. There. Talk
to me a little bit about that, because you know, gaming is such
a hot button issue, and evenhere where I'm at in Boston, you
(17:21):
have the tractors who are completely againstit, you have people who are completely
for it, and then you havethe in between. But for American Indians
and from a financial standpoint, talkto me about gaming. Okay. You
know, this is really one ofthe kind of concluding insights that maybe are
(17:41):
one would find at the end ofthis long history. And it was for
me also one of the most revelatory, in part because I teach Native American
history and have to kind of makesense of the contemporary era based on sometimes
less extensive scholar findings. It's hardto write books about the modern era,
(18:03):
for example, but there have beenover the last generation or so lots of
really interesting studies, one of whichI was just totally kind of not quite
dumbfounded, but startled, you know, shocked, you might say, to
find out that American Indians. Andthis is from my colleague at UCLA,
Ning Randall, a Key's kind ofcollective works. He's an economist who does
(18:27):
a lot of this type of economicanalysis. He's helped me see this history
and kind of historical perspective, andyou really can't understand the evolution of modern
Indian gaming outside of these like largerlegal and economic contexts. But in the
nineteen seventies, American Indians were beginningto fashion incredibly innovative economic practices and policies.
(18:59):
Really for the first time in contemporaryor modern American history. Tribal communities
during and after the Johnson Great Societyprograms were receiving new grants, initiatives,
and resources essentially from the federal governmentthat that had historically not prioritize Indigenous communities.
(19:25):
And this is partly the logics ofprior policies known as termination that attempted
to politically assimilate tribal reservation lands intocounty and state jurisdictions. Tribal members,
as I write about, fought thatpolicy and were successful in getting what is
(19:45):
known as restoration bills passed to restoreessentially their tribal sovereignty within the federalist system.
As they're doing that, various kindof Great Society and early Nixon and
Ford and Carter era policies and programsare providing resources for housing, for economic
(20:07):
development for schools, and tribes arestarting to use those resources to build for
the first time their own autonomous schoolingsystems, to expand housing for their tribal
members, to initiate various types ofeconomic opportunities. This sounds kind of familiar
if one is somewhat aware of Indianaffairs over the last fifty or six years.
(20:34):
As a kind of form of selfdetermination that becomes codified by Congress in
nineteen seventy in the nineteen seventies undera series of bills, including the American
Indian Self Determination and Educational Assistance Act. It's one of the statutes or laws
that the Red Power movement or theIndian Indigenous Rights movement kind of helped initiate.
(21:00):
However, by the late seventies andearly eighties, when the Depression,
various recessions had kind of fallen uponthe United States, the new Congress in
Washington in the early eighties and presidentialadministration started cutting back a lot of federal
funding. And the shocking statistic thatI learned and this research or this article
(21:22):
by Randall Akey and some of hisco authors, was that Native Americans lost
money per capita during the nineteen eightiesthen they had during the nineteen seventies,
which is a complete like inversion ofour understandings of how the eighties and seventies
worked. When Reaganomics and kind ofsupplied side economics provided such kind of incredible
(21:45):
boosts and deregulation of corporate and variousstate industries created such a kind of profusion
of opportunities economically for the nation asa whole. Well, this didn't happen
in Native America, and in fact, the opposite happened because so many tribes
have been borrowing money to continue buildingthe type of infrastructure and government kind of
(22:07):
facilities that they envisioned someday, havingthat they didn't have access to capital.
And so what do people who don'thave access to capital do. They turn
to less often regulated and less kindof sometimes socially acceptable forms of often deregulated
(22:27):
capital lending or leaning, which includesblack market economics, on various other types
of what we might consider to besomewhat elicit or legal activities. And those
tribes started experimenting with using their owntribal sovereign authority outside of the tax systems
(22:49):
and outside of the jurisdiction of incomeregulations that states have on their own citizens.
Tribes are not subject to state jurisdictionsin American law, largely speaking,
there's some criminal law exceptions that Congresshas established in the late twentieth century.
So many of these tribal leaders startdoing things to try to maximize their comparative
(23:15):
advantage jurisdictionally to raise money and inplaces like southern California or in southern Florida,
tribal leaders see how nonprofit organizations likechurches, synagogues and other nonprofits use
bingo to raise revenues for themselves inCalifornia. In fact, you may not
(23:36):
know this, it's not well known. There are legal card rooms for many
municipalities in the state. Many statesare also generating revenue for themselves through various
state lottery systems in the eighties,and so all these entities are using essentially
various creative measures to find revenue.And so when the tribes start doing bingo
(24:00):
initiatives in Florida or card rooms andother gaming initiatives in California, they start
falling under the careful watch of localand state leaders who try to shut them
down and say things like, youcan't award these types of bingo awards at
(24:21):
your bingo halls in Florida. Theseare the snowbird communities that many Northerners retreat
to in the winter months, andso there's actually a lot of resources that
are possible in these areas. Andso the tribes start suing or filing injunctions
against the seizure or closure of theirfacilities and eventually win a Supreme Court case
(24:41):
called Kabazonie California that essentially provides constitutionalclarity over the gaming sovereign authority that tribes
have. This court ruling from nineteennineteen eighty seven is followed by a law
called the Indian Gaming reg Dilatory Actor IGRA in nineteen eighty eight that sets
(25:03):
in motion a compact system where statesand tribes have to work out how these
gaming initiatives will essentially be initiated.And no one could have foreseen the growth
of these facilities and revenue streams atthe time, but they've become, as
you're suggesting, a kind of billiondollar industry from where once we're very small
(25:25):
scale initiatives. We shouldn't lose sightof the fact, however, that most
tribes do not run successful or kindof heavily profitable gaming initiatives, and only
a small percentage of tribes that actuallyrun gaming facilities. See the type of
astronomical profits that many kind of assumedto be present in Native America, and
(25:48):
not too far from here, onecould look at, for example, the
Machontucket Peaquock community to see I thinkone of the world's largest casinos at Foxwood's,
having gone through real difficult economic upsand downs essentially, so that kind
of volatility that kind of created thekind of gaming revolution in Indian country is
still there and it's just not aswell known. In a perfect scenario,
(26:15):
what do you hope folks gain fromreading your book here? Because again,
there's so much history, There's somuch information that quite frankly, the majority
of us have never known before.You know, this is this is going
back to school. Really, ina perfect world, what can we walk
away with after reading the book?Ideally, I would hope that we as
(26:37):
a nation could be much more sensitiveand informed about the essential place that Native
Americans occupy in American historical development,it's really impossible to understand the evolution and
expansion of First European settlements and thenlater the United States without a sufficient not
(27:03):
just understanding, but really a kindof commitment to seeing indigenous nations and people's
as central actors within this larger tale. We kind of have to move past
the somewhat Eurocentric paradigms that have kindof formed American historical development and prioritize a
(27:25):
much more inclusive, multiracial perspective tosee all of America's historical communities as central
participants in the epic of America.Well, I'll tell you right now,
it's definitely something that I recommend foreveryone listening out there, not just for
yourselves, but also for young peoplein your life. You know, this
(27:48):
is a fantastic retelling of the historyand again at what I like to call
a more accurate telling of our historyas a nation actually as relates to American
Indians, Native Americans, indigenous peoples, however you want to say it.
There So, without further ado ned, what is the best way that our
(28:10):
listeners can get a copy of theRediscovery of America. Well, it should
be available online at the University Presswebsite. It's I believe also an Amazon
and likely in many local area bookstores. And how about yourself, I mean,
(28:30):
you know, this is not yourfirst rodeo. You've authored at least
four books and countless articles and thingsof that nature. You're a professor history.
There, what's the best way thatfolks can keep up with you and
just stay dialed into what you havegoing on. Yes, I've co authored
(28:51):
two works and single author of twoothers and indigenous history more broadly, and
I don't quite always have the timeto reply to direct emails, but we
do run a pretty active working groupcalled the Yale Group for the Study of
Native America that has an active websitethat highlights things are doing. We've been
(29:14):
involved in some legal advocacy efforts,we have been active at various museums curatorial
undertakings that we try to partner withtribal communities as best as we can,
and so that website, the YaleGroup for the Study of Native America highlights
some of these efforts. Well nedlisten, I truly believe that the rediscovery
(29:36):
of america Native peoples and the unmakingof US history is a significant contribution to
our nation, and I really appreciatethe time and the effort that you put
into this book, and just ingeneral, I appreciate you being brave enough
to continue to lead on this issue. You know, our history matters,
(29:59):
and the fact that we have educatorslike yourself who are willing to keep sounding
the alarm and keep putting it outthere, it's great and hopefully you're inspiring
the next generation to continue to dothis. So thank you for telling us
the truth. It's been my pleasure, fantastic conversation there with Ned Blackhawk,
(30:21):
And I'll tell you, folks,when we talk about history, it's so
important to know the facts, thetruth about where we've been and what has
happened to all of us in orderto make informed decisions about how we address
issues of today and how we setthe table for how to address issues of
(30:45):
tomorrow. That's just the way itis, right And it's interesting because,
you know, talking to Ned andreading the rediscovery of America Native People's and
the unmaking of us history. Justthis whole exercise here, it's got me
to thinking voting is such an importantthing that we all take for granted,
(31:11):
and certainly some of us far morethan others. But I think we all
take it for granted. We alldon't pay enough attention to the significance of
voting and how it can impact ourlives in so many different ways. Until
something that we don't want to happenhappens, right, until we take a
(31:36):
loss, we don't realize the powerof our vote. And it's wild because
think back to the fact that wehad Donald Trump as president for four years,
four years. What happened not onlyin those four years, but what
(31:57):
had happened in that time period that'sstill affecting us today. In twenty twenty
three alone, we have the rollbackof Roe v. Wade, and now
we have the rollback of affirmative action. This is wild, right, just
(32:20):
those two issues alone. How dothose two issues alone affect everyone's life instantly?
Right, These are things that youwould never thought would change in your
lifetime. And yet literally having DonaldTrump as president and you know, the
(32:45):
perfect storm of so much turnover onthe Supreme Court, and then he as
president Trump being responsible for nominating peoplewho are more in line with I'm you're
going to call it conservative thinking.This is extreme thinking, in my opinion,
(33:06):
has resulted in a Supreme Court thatis completely out of whack. You
know, they're viewing the country asa body, the majority as a body,
and making decisions the majority as abody in a manner that is literally
undoing the few things that we havethat make it possible for inclusion and diversity
(33:32):
and the ability to live life ina manner that makes it possible for the
most amount of people to have opportunity. They're rolling all that stuff back,
right, and everybody's affected by thewhole notion of Roe v. Wade getting
rolled back. I mean, somany states are making it illegal to have
(33:54):
abortions, and I'm telling you rightnow, that is a recipe for disaster
in my opinion, and we've coveredthat here on the show. But my
goodness, I saw an issue wherecertain military personnel who are stationed in states
(34:15):
that have been in power to makeit illegal to have abortions. What happens
if they need to have an abortionfor one reason or another, They're going
to have to take time off,So they're losing their time in the military
in their personal time that they cantake off on their dime, and they're
(34:36):
going to have to go and travelto states that where abortion is legal and
have the abortion there. And youknow, these folks who, again I'm
not going to call them conservatives,they're more extremists. In my opinion,
they want to make sure that notaxpayer money is even paying for these military
(34:59):
folks to try I will anywhere havean abortion, etc. Etc. Just
you know, the aftershock, theafter effects of all these decisions. It's
incredible. Think about the whole thingwith the affirmative action. You roll it
back in these colleges, but whereis it going to end? Right?
Every workplace has to take a lookat that ruling, and then they have
(35:22):
to take a look at their policyand gear up because the fight is on
our hands here. The playing fieldwas never leveled, and affirmative action certainly
made an attempt to level it,but taken that away, it's going to
be far less level Right, everyworkplace, including government. So much is
(35:47):
going to change because of that,and in my opinion, not for the
better. You have to vote tosit around and complain about the state of
affairs. When you have a voteand you've chosen not to utilize that vote,
(36:08):
I don't know what to tell you. Our education system is being incredibly
attacked, and we see it downin Florida, and the guy who's the
governor there on descent as he's runningfor president of United States right on the
Republican ticket. This guy doesn't hedoesn't want anything that he calls quote unquote
(36:31):
woke, which you know, thisis buzzword here. The target is black
and brown folks, specifically, youknow, Latin American folk. But that
trickles down certainly a book like TheRediscovery of America. Do you think those
folks down in Florida are going tobe supportive of something like this being put
(36:55):
in any curriculum taught to any schoolchildre in Florida. I don't think so,
and not because there's anything wrong withthis book. It's a fantastic book.
I read it myself. I learneda lot. I thought it was
fascinating to learn about the significant contributionsto the makeup, the building, the
(37:17):
foundation of this nation that we callthe United States of America today. American
Indians, Native Americans, indigenous peoples, whatever you want to call them,
they are a significant part of thehistory. The history does not exist without
them, and we've erased them.We don't learn enough about their contributions to
(37:45):
our history. But yet they've beenthere at every turn, and The Rediscovery
of America points that out in avery clear and concise way. There's no
question about it. It is whatit is, right, But you have
folks who want to take information likethis and not make it available to those
(38:09):
who need it the most, especiallyour young people who are forming their opinions
and their understanding of the world aroundthem. And you know how to move
in certain directions as a result ofthe information at they're learning. That's the
whole purpose of school. It's thewhole purpose of an education. Right.
Hopefully you learn enough to make informeddecisions when you become an adult. Right.
(38:32):
They don't even want these kids toknow about this history if it's not
all sunshine and lollipops. They don'twant these kids to know the truth about
how American Indians, Native Americans,indigenous people have been treated in these United
States throughout the history. But theycouldn't get away with that, these elected
(38:58):
officials and these folks who will pushand that agenda, they couldn't get away
with that if more people were votingagainst them. So you have to ask,
well, what is my contribution?Am I doing enough? And if
you're choosing not to go to theballot box and cast your vote in all
(39:20):
of these elections and every single electionthat is available, to you, municipal,
state, federal, I don't carewhat it is, dog catcher.
If you are not voting, Idon't know what to tell you, because
this whole nonsense and this myth ofmy vote doesn't matter and nothing is going
(39:40):
to change. We just saw inthis year alone how much change can happen,
and at the heart of it,votes are what made it possible for
those change to happen, either foror against. I get passionate about this
stuff because it's serious, man,it's serious, and I know a lot
(40:02):
of people listen. The beauty ofbeing someone that does a show like tell
Us the Truth, and being someoneyou know, in my everyday life that
people know. I keep myself informed. You know, I'm a news addict,
so to speak. I'm constantly reading, listening to, or watching the
(40:23):
news. I stay in the know. I have alerts on my phone.
People email me stuff. I getinformation. I get information before it even
pops up in your newspaper, onyour TV. I get information. I
stay in the know on what's goingon around us. So because of that,
people have conversations with me, askmy opinion and things of that nature.
(40:44):
And I can't tell you how manypeople flat out admit I don't vote.
It doesn't matter. My vote doesn'tmatter, it's never going to change.
I voted one time and not enoughchange, So I'm not voting anymore.
What's the point. I can't tellyou how many people say that to
(41:04):
me. It's incredible grown adults,mind you, it's incredible, and it's
interesting to turn around and see thesesame grown adults right now. Roe v.
Wade was one thing. Affirmative Actionwas a whole other level of something
(41:27):
right. And then seeing de Santisand he's running, and then even folks
who may not be as familiar withhim to go back and look at his
record and just from an education standpoint, what he's doing down in Florida.
Disney, okay, Disney is lookingto leave Florida because of Ronda Santis and
(41:49):
the ridiculous things that he's done downthere and how he's treated people, Black
people, Latino people, so peopleof color, just in general, women,
LGBTQ, plus Jewish people. Thisguy is going down the list of
some of the negative policy that he'spushing and he because he has the right
(42:12):
people in place to support his negativepolicy, they're pushing it through in that
state. It's going from paradise toa hellhole in my opinion. And I
know I'm going to catch a lotof heat for saying that, but that's
okay. This is tell us thetruth. This isn't This isn't sunshine and
lollipops all the time. Yes,there's a lot of positive things that happen
(42:35):
in life. Certainly, the rediscoveryof America by ned Blackhawk is one of
the most positive things that have happenedin my life. Just in the past
two months, I've learned so muchabout the contributions of American Indians, Native
Americans, Indigenous peoples, whatever youwant to call it. I've learned so
(42:55):
much about our brothers and sisters andhow they've contributed to this nation and really
help me reflect on how they've beenerased from the history of this nation that
I feel better informed about how toapproach issues that are more specific to our
brothers and sisters within the Native culture, in the Native communities and what have
(43:17):
you. Right, So, certainlythere's a lot of positive things that go
on in life. Every single day. Wake up every day. The fact
that you're breathing, you're walking,your talking, you're alive. That's a
positive thing. But I gotta tellyou there are some challenges out there,
and certainly, when you don't vote, you are mounting the challenges on your
(43:43):
should There's that much more. Andjust because you can't feel it in the
moment, that doesn't mean that it'snot there. And one day it just
turns around and slaps you in theface. Who cares? Who's on the
Supreme Court turns into Oh my god, they just got rid of all of
(44:05):
the diversity, equity and inclusion scholarshipsat such and such university. Oh my
god, they just laid off ourwhole diversity team. They're rolling back all
of these policies in order to makeworkplaces, make schools less racist. They're
(44:29):
rolling that stuff back because the SupremeCourt has made it clear that you can't
do that. What I'm telling youguys, in ladies, everybody, we
got to get serious about this stuffand we have to ask ourselves what is
our contribution and are we doing enough? It's a real thing. Education is
(44:57):
the key, So you got yougotta take the time to actually learn something
out there, do your research onyour own, don't just listen to somebody
else all the time. But certainlytrust, but verify right, and then
ultimately action, and certainly voting isas important as anything that you do in
your life. If you do nothingelse to contribute to society, if you
(45:25):
do nothing else for anyone else,certainly voting is plenty that you can do.
And I'm not telling you who tovote for. But I'm talking to
the people who are complaining and whoare concerned, and who are upset about
the state of affairs in our societyright now. This is all the results
(45:46):
of voting or not voting, I'mtelling you. And the worst part about
it is we ain't seen nothing yet. There's more to come, the things
that the Supreme Court are working onright now to limit the rights of so
many of us. And you can'tstay in your little bubble and think that
(46:09):
you're safe, right. I amnot an American Indian. I'm not I'm
not a Native American Indigenous. I'mnot that. And I did the DNA
testing thing, and I was actuallysurprised because people of my family always said
that we have Native American in ourDNA in our blood. My results didn't
(46:32):
show that. Now there could bereasons for that. Maybe there aren't enough
Native American folk that have been testedand put in the database, et cetera,
et cetera. So maybe the resultsare just inaccurate or legitimately, maybe
I just don't have Native in myDNA, right, So do I stay
in my bubble and not be concernedabout issues that are facing Native American folk,
(46:55):
American Indians, indigenous people's specifically,because hey, not my problem.
I'm not one of them. SoI shouldn't care about the rates of employment,
the rates of suicide, the ratesof alcoholism and addiction in general.
I shouldn't care about the fact thatwe've had a complete genocide of their people's.
(47:16):
I shouldn't care. I shouldn't carethat to this day they still continue
to be discriminated against, and hadit not been for gaming, things would
be even worse. Not to saythat anything is perfect, It's far from
it. But as you heard fromNed Blackhawk, and he perfectly outlined,
and the rediscovery of America, gamingchanged the game for a lot of a
(47:42):
Native American folks, American Indian folks, indigenous folks. So I'm supposed to
just stay in my little bubble andnot pay attention because they not my problem.
Okay, fine, but eventually they'regoing to get to me right.
So, if you didn't care whenNative American folk were attack, when Latino
(48:07):
folk were attack, when black folkswore attack, when women were attacked,
when the LGBTQ folks are attacked,when the Muslims were attacked, not the
Jewish people being attacked. If youdidn't care because it's not me, don't
worry. It's going to catch upto you too. You will find yourself
(48:30):
being affected one way or another,which is why you have to be proactive
from the very beginning. I'm tellingyou this is this is not a choice,
this is a necessity. Here wehave to do this. The next
time somebody says to you, oh, may and I don't vote, I
(48:52):
don't vote. Nothing's gonna change you. Challenge that person. You say to
them, well, damn God forbid, something happens to a loved one or
to you. If it's possible,and for one reason or another, you
absolutely cannot give birth, but youbecome pregnant and you must get an abortion.
(49:19):
But here we go where all thatstuff is rolling back, and they're
outlawing abortions and making it illegal,turn you into a criminal if you do,
in fact have an abortion. They'rerolling back contraception in a lot of
states, because it's a trickle downeffect, right, But he's just going
to keep going. This is whathappens when you don't vote, huh,
(49:46):
the whole affirmative action thing. Thisis what happens when you don't vote the
whole banning books. And we don'twant our kids to feel bad about the
history of their ancestors and what haveyou. Okay, so now we're just
not going to learn about the procitiesthat have happened in this nation and how
we can have a system in whichso many people have so much and even
(50:07):
more people have so little. Entireraces of people have a far less net
worth than entire races of other people. That's not a coincidence. A lot
of history went into that, alot of things had to happen. This
was manufactured. It's on purpose inorder to keep our people's uneven. And
(50:32):
no matter how hard you work,it still comes back to the same thing.
I could work every job in theworld, I can make as much
money as I can, but mywhite male equivalent is still going to be
worth more than me, is stillgoing to be able to walk into places
and get alone faster than me.It's still going to be considered less suspect
(50:54):
as I am. That's a systemworking against me and working for them.
We need to know that there isa history of that. Where did that
begin? Why is it still goingon? In order to understand how we
can change these things, you don'tbury your head in the sand. You
(51:19):
take the time to get educated,you learn, you come together with folks,
and then you address the issue.That's real life because if you don't
do these things, then you're oneof the people standing around wondering how the
hell did that happen? When youfind out that this is illegal and now
(51:43):
you're about to lose your job,and that you know, you start finding
back all these things. You startfinding out all these things are rolled back.
That's also real life. I'm tellingyou, I think about this a
lot because it is fascinating. Somuch change has happened, and again you
have to look at how did weget here? One president in four years
(52:10):
has completely restructured the foreseeable future inour nation so many things. And now
this guy is being pursued because,oh, by the way, he he's
a very good chance he was acriminal the whole time. Now he's gonna
have his day in Courton, we'llknow for sure. But you know it
(52:31):
ain't looking too good. What doesthat tell you? You mean to tell
me you didn't vote, and thenyou're surprised at what's going on. Okay,
well, this is where we're attelling you folks, we got to
(52:52):
smarten up here, we got toget serious, and we have to lean
into works like the Discovery of Americabecause they assist in us having a better
understanding of where we go from here, what we should be focusing on in
(53:14):
the present time. I always sayit, you want to get educated,
so you know what to ask peoplewho are running for office. It's an
election year in some way, shapeor form. Every every year. Every
year is an election year. Somebody'srunning for something. What does it mean
to vote for somebody? Well,if there are issues that are affecting your
(53:35):
life, you ask them specifically aboutthat. What is your stance on such
and such right, and then youhold them accountable if you give them your
vote, because you believe they're goingto address to such and such. And
then they get in the office andthey don't address to such and such.
They gotta go back to the drawingboard. Vote for somebody else. That's
the way it's supposed to be.There's no quick fix. There's a lot
(53:59):
of effort, but it's worth itbecause I'm telling you right now, that
is how we get to a pointwhere we stop things like a president who
is able to reshape the nation throughwho they put on the Supreme Court,
who is now rolling back many ofthe things that make it possible for our
(54:22):
society to operate in a manner that'sequal right, or at least far more
even or equal than it would bewithout these things in place. Everybody is
under attack with this stuff. It'samazing. It's amazing. So there's that.
(54:44):
I got on a big soapbox withthis stuff here. But folks,
I'm telling you, man, Iam concerned about where we're going from here,
and we're going to continue to talkabout this. I'm concerned far too
many of us are not doing ourpart. I don't care who you are.
If you're eighteen or over and you'relegally eligible to vote, there is
(55:05):
no excuse for you not voting.There's no excuse. You have to do
it. Everyone is depending on this. Everything that's going on in your life
will be affected one way or anotherby this. Some of the things you
can see when it's coming. Otherthings, it's just going to knock you
over, but it's going to happen. So there's that. Tell us the
(55:28):
Truth on Facebook, on Twitter,Instagram, tell us the Truth dot duke
at gmail dot com. Let meknow what you think. I am I
off base here with the voting thing. Should we just sit back and just
let stuff happen around us? Becausewhatever? Should we not contribute? Should
we not try to make this nationa better place? Should we not leave
(55:49):
this nation better than whatever it wasbefore we were born? Let me know.
I know that there are a lotof detractors and people who disagree.
I know that there are people whobenefit from dismantling safeguards and things that promote
diversity and opportunity, what have you. They want this chaos. People like
(56:15):
Trump have a lot of support,right and this isn't a Republican or a
Democrat thing. I'm neither one ofthose. We all know that. I've
said that at nauseum on this show. I don't do gangs. I don't
belong to a political party. I'mfortunate enough where I live in Massachusetts.
You know, as a commonwealth,we have the option of being quote unquote
(56:37):
undeclared party. I don't have tosubscribe to that. I just vote the
issues. But I vote. Yousay that again, I vote? So
what about you? I know someof you saying, wife vote too.
Who do you think you I'm nottalking to you. Don't worry. I'm
(56:58):
talking to what I'm talking to.You know, I'm sure you know.
Some of the folks I'm talking to. Playlist for them. They need to
hear it. They need to heara man that blackhawk as well, but
they need to hear this part forsure. Vote please, you got something
to say all the time when thingshappen. Where were you when it was
time to vote? Okay? Sonext time, be kind to yourselves and
(57:24):
be kind to others. This isE. Duke Bennett and you've been listening
to tell Us the Truth. TellUs the Truth is produced in Boston in
association with iHeartMedia and WBZ News Radio.
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