June update: Rockets draft intel with Nathan Grubel (@DraftDeeper)

With two weeks to go until the 2024 NBA draft, Houston continues to own the No. 3 overall pick in the first round. Draft guru Nathan Grubel (@DraftDeeper) joins Ben and Paulo to discuss the latest news and rumors, including deep dives on Donovan Clingan, Alex Sarr, Reed Sheppard, Stephon Castle, and more. Thursday’s show also explores various trade possibilities, including a hypothetical deal with Portland involving Anfernee Simons.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome toThe Logger Line, an exclusive podcast from
the home of the Rockets, SportsTalk seven ninety. The Logger Line.
It's proudly served to you by carBocks Clutch City Lagger. It is God
Oh Yeah, Red Nation. GetReady, Ready, Get Ready. The

(00:26):
Lagger Line starts now. Welcome aboard, Welcome back to another new episode of
The Logger Line, serve to youcourtesy of Clutch City Lagger of Carback Brewing.
I'm Ben Tubow's your host, editorof USA Today's Rockets Fire, a

(00:48):
contributor to Sports Talk seven ninety,the official flagship radio station of your Houston
Rockets. As always, I'm joinedby Powell Alves, our co hosts out
of Portugal. We've also got aspecial guest today. It's Nathan Grubel,
who you may know is Draft Deeperon Twitter slash x. Nathan, let's
start with introductions. Tell our audiencea little bit about your time in NBA
draft media and generally what you dowhen it comes to creating draft related content.

(01:11):
Sure so, Ben Pollo, thankyou guys so much for having me
on the podcast, and I reallyappreciate it. But most people would know
me in terms of being the founderof Draft Deeper, which started independently as
its own podcast, expanded into morewritten form content when I was with the
No Ceilings team as well as keptthe podcast going over there the Draft Deeper

(01:33):
podcast. But that media career thatstarted back in twenty twenty up through this
past year twenty twenty three, thatwas actually something that came from me having
experience and wanted to get into thescouting industry. Dating back to twenty eleven,
I was trying my hands at NBADraft Scouting, and naturally I went

(01:55):
to college, did a lot ofstuff in the NBA mediate speechs with a
few different websites, but then pursuedthe scouting industry as a whole by working
with a private firm, eb Hoopsat the time. Naturally made some relationships
with some other scouts and executives inthe space and some agents, and in
doing that, I really wanted tobe able to share a lot of the

(02:15):
lessons that I learned as well ascontinue to scout publicly, which is why
draft Deeper was formed. It wasa very successful podcast, and thankfully I'm
going to be launching a new websiteslash newsletter called youth movement in September of
twenty twenty four, which we'll focusa lot more not just on the draft,

(02:37):
but as the NBA in terms ofyoung players, the G League guys
could potentually come back to the leagueas a whole. So that's going to
be a really exciting project to getinto. But yeah, everything always leads
back to the draft, right guys. Yeah, absolutely, And of course
that's what we're going to be talkingabout today because the Rocket's picking third overall
exactly two weeks. Were recording thison Wednesday night, June twelfth, The

(02:59):
first is on June twenty sixth,so we're getting pretty close still that very
clear what the Rockets are going todo or who's going to be on the
board at pick three. So Iwant to start with the thirty thousand foot
view question because Nathan, as youmentioned, you've been around this business for
a while, You've seen a numberof draft classes, and I think everyone

(03:19):
knows the twenty twenty four class doesnot have a wembe. There's no perceived
generational talent like last year, andso there's been some comparisons to subpar draft
classes like the year two thousand,twenty thirteen. I can remember a lot
of people didn't like twenty twenty,but then that reminds me, Hey,
twenty twenty, even though it wasn'tperceived as a good draft class, there
have been some really top shelf playersthat have come out of that. Anthony

(03:42):
Edwards and LaMelo Ball in the topthree. You had Tyrese Haliburton, Desmond
Bane, Tyvese Maasei later in thefirst round. You look at twenty thirteen,
you had to go a little bitdeeper in the round, but you
had Giannis and Rudy Gobert, andthose were a couple of drafts that going
in weren't really believed to be allthat good and had a lot of the
same talk that you you're now aboutthe twenty twenty four draft class. So
what are your thoughts about this classas a whole, particularly from the perspective

(04:05):
of a team picking very high likethe Rockets. So I think when we
discuss the twenty twenty four NBA Draftclass, I know that it's the popular
opinion online to talk about how there'sof star power at the very top of
the draft, players who we wouldperceive as a number one pick in previous
years. No there's no Victor WomanYama in this class, or may not

(04:26):
even be a Palob and Caro potentiallyin this class. But what we do
have is honestly a depth of anumber of players who I think are going
to have potential starting level careers inthe NBA. They're going to be able
to come off the bench and playimportant roles for NBA teams, potentially playoff
and contending teams in the near future. Here, there's a lot of players

(04:47):
who when we evaluate them, nothey may not be these do it all
offensive engines, but they can contributedefensively in a certain role. They can
contribute offensively in a certain ble.I think that's the type of player that
we're gonna see throughout this draft.But I don't necessarily think that's a bad
thing, because the more that youlook at a lot of these playoff teams

(05:08):
that are building for contention, youneed depth everywhere you can get it right.
You can't just have two or threeguys are the foundation of your team,
but you're your Copveraed's bear underneath them, right. You need to have
fourth and fifth starters who can doa variety of different things, contributed certain
areas to where if the star playershave it an off night, you have
some of these other guys you canlean on. You need six, seventh,

(05:30):
eighth guys off of your bench,and you even need depth pass that
and the regular season, depending onthe kind of injuries that you encounter,
et cetera. So when we're lookingat this draft class, no, there
might not be the sexy names atthe top, but there is a lot
of opportunity for smart teams to certainlyimprove upon their depth, find some third,
fourth, fifth starters, and reallyfind pieces that they're gonna be able

(05:51):
to build with into the future,whether they have those star pillars already or
they're still going to be looking forthem in the twenty five or twenty six
trap class. Yeah. Absolutely,I think it's a really good job of
you know, just of course notI'm no longer than neutral, But if
I were a new drought is Ifeel pretty inspired by your description. I

(06:11):
mean, you may, you know, the lowest are power labels sound like
a pretty exciting deal. That beingsaid, there's you know, I'll just
I'll get straight to the point.Today, last couple of days, but
today especially there's been more and moretalk about the possibility of the Hawks either
trading down or even just you know, if they can't just selecting cleaning at

(06:33):
one. You know, usually it'sit's two weeks from the drafts even though
the stress class is not that high, but or it's not generating it as
much a bus there's always you know, the media, the teams play.
The question just becomes how likely orunlikely is it that the top two shakes
off Sorr Receschet or the opposite.How likely is it that Rockets may get

(06:57):
one of the two guys that wereperceived as the clear to the top two
bigs. I'm not really clear,but you know what I mean. But
to this point one of them fallsto three? Is it close enough?
Did any see a team in theHawks or the Wizards, you know,
letting one of those guys slight thethree and if so, shoo the Rockets
stake that guy, because I mean, depending on who you ask, that
top two is not that clear.So Stars been the number one overall player

(07:20):
on my board since its first iterationat the end of January beginning of whatever.
It was when I created my firstboard that I was sharing privately to
the scouts and executives and agents behindthe scenes, he has remained in that
spot. I have not been ashigh as resa Shay throughout this process.
Zachary resa Che has certainly had someups and downs this season. I think

(07:41):
he did end the season on arelatively positive note. Him and did John
Salon have also had some good momentsoverseas. But when we're talking about a
player like Alex Sar, it's importantto evaluate not just the number production,
but just looking at his tape andlooking at what he can offer on the

(08:03):
court. Because the NBL experience thisseason for a number of players, not
just him, was a little bitsporadic, right. Not everyone had a
consistent role in that league. Noteveryone was playing every single night. You
even had to prospect as talented assarhave. You know, one night he's
playing twenty minutes, twenty five minutes. The next night he's played five minutes
and riding the betch. So thatwas an inconsistent experience for a lot of

(08:24):
prospects over there. But when youdid get to see him on tape,
especially when we saw him in thoseexhibitions against the G League Night team,
you saw him take over the gameat times as a face up scoring threat,
someone who can knock down shots inthe mid range. Someone who is
improving consistently as a three point shooter, he's certainly willing to take those types

(08:46):
of jump shots. I think that'sgoing to bode well for him, because
when you look at the rest ofhis package, lighty seven foot one and
athletic marvel at that center position,someone who reliable finisher and transition, someone
who can get up there, catchlobs, finish over top of defenders.
You start to put some of thatoffensive package together along with probably the most
enticing part of his game, whichis how much ground he's able to cover

(09:09):
defensively on the perimeter, how he'sable to switch and operate it in a
switchable scheme, how he's going tobe an impactful defender in a number of
different coverages in terms of pick androll defense. You take a look at
that type of player and you cansay, well, he has some wards.
He wasn't a top shelf rebounder incompetition. He's someone who's definitely gonna
need to add some strength and somesize to his frame to be able to

(09:31):
compete with some of the other bigmen that he's going to face off against
in the NBA. The jump shotis something that's coming around, but it's
not there yet. You piece awaysome of those layers, but when you
start to look at too much ofthe negative, you're wiping way too much
of the positive, which is thatAlex Sar is that type of prospect too.
You don't really see coming too theleague much often at all. And

(09:52):
the more that we're evaluating and watchingNBA basketball at the highest of levels,
the more that you become enticed totake it an impact defender like Sarkum potentially
be. And so that's why ifyou wouldn't go one to the Hawks,
I don't see him falling past theWashington Wizards because they need more on the
defensive side of the ball. Theyneed more of the front court, they

(10:13):
need help anything that they can getout of that center position, someone who
they can build around or build withfor the future. I don't see them
passing on Sorrow. I know Klingonmay be an intriguing option, but when
you factor in what Sar can dooffensively and what he could become like an
Evan Mobley light kind of player,I don't see the Wizards passing on that
at all. Brisa sche is adifferent story. He's been number one or

(10:37):
number two for esp Ota, Johnthan Cavodis Jeremy wou for a while.
You've heard some of the rumors thathe may slide back and may potentially be
in play at three. I gottabe honest, I'd be very intrigued with
how he would fit with the HoustonRockets. And when I say that,
I know that every single team islooking for these six' eight six y
nine guys who can shoot threes,and they have good feet, they can

(10:58):
flip their and keep up with guyson the perimeter. But when we're talking
about a guy playing on the wingwith the guys who the Rockets already have
on the roster, right, yousigned Dylan Brooks to that contract, you
still have Jalen Green there. Youjust drafted a men Thompson who can slide
anywhere between the one and the threeand offensively has played the role like a

(11:20):
four or five depending on the lineupconstructs. You already have guys like Tarry
East and Cam Whitmore. A lotof these players I'm actually very high on
as an evaluator. I think theycertainly have a future with the Houston Rockets.
So how many of those players wouldreesa Schey actually play over in terms
of the number of minutes that hewould have in the rotation. It's not
the Resa Shay won't be a goodplayer in the NBA and can't provide value

(11:43):
because of what he's bringing to thetable. I'm just trying to figure out
what is the best use of thatasset for the Houston Rockets, specifically,
Can they find some good guard depth, Can they bolster the center position in
the front court. Can they possiblymove that pick in some sort of deal,
whether they're picking up other assets orthey're getting an impact player back that

(12:03):
That's what I'm more so thinking aboutfor the Houston Rockets, not necessarily just
trying to a for one of ourbest player available depending on what we've been
hearing. Yeah, one hundred percent. And I'm with you in in the
sense that I'm kind of wishing thathe, you know, goes top too,
just because I know I know hedon't draft for fit. But obviously

(12:24):
the Rockets have a lot of talentat that position, and there are a
lot of prospects that if they werein the draft right now, I would
draft over over Shade that thing hesaid. Just a quick follow up since
we're probably not gonna touch I'm sorryanymore on the pot, how do you
how do you view him? Youknow you talked about it with Motily,
so I guess the question still appliesas more of a four more of a

(12:45):
five. Is fit with Shane Goonbecause personally, I think he's one of
the if Rockets were able to eithermove up, or if the Hawks are
not that sold on him, oror if he falls. I think he's
if not built in a lab asclose to it as you can without being
you know, hut home Grim orsomeone like that, to play next to
a big light Kinghun who has someability issues, that has some perception issues.

(13:07):
I just think they'd fit together,and long term to see Sara optimized
more as a fur or as afive. I think long term he would
be best optimized as a five,and I think in that position, if
they were to draft him, hewould be coming off the bench behind Shengo.
Not that they couldn't share the courttogether. I do think they could
because of how Sar tends to favorin terms of facing up on the perimeter.

(13:28):
He's more often used as a playeraway from the basket or someone who's
finishing in transition as a lot fornot someone of who you're calling for a
heavy diet of he's going to rollin the basket in the half court or
he's going to be someone who's postingup, because those are deficiencies in this
game. He didn't really get toshow a lot of in the NBL,
right, he had low possession countsfor both of those play types respectively.
So you are looking at him moreas as a rim runner who can also

(13:54):
space the floor and then and thencover a lot of ground defensively in time
from the buy position. But Idon't necessarily think that's a bad thing if
you're looking for someone who can playnot just next to sh Gun in terms
of you're looking for him to playheavy minutes together, but also just to
bolster that depth behind al Ba inSchengun because there are questions for the Rockets
about who's going to be that nextcenter. Right, Jock Landell actually did

(14:18):
have some moments where he looked prettygood in some limited action at some different
points throughout the season. You tradedfor Steven Adams, you have him at
least for this season, you wouldthink, unless they're going to use that
contract in the trade to move offof him. I mean, I don't
know what direction the Rockets are goingto go, but we're looking at these
teams around the NBA that are sobut they're so focused on size and then

(14:41):
having multiple guys that you can throwat teams, not just relying on one
center to play the lion's share ofthe minutes. And so in that case,
I don't think it would be abad thing for them to draft Sar,
regardless of how often you're seeing himand Shngun share the floor together,
at least to offer some sort ofdepth and a quote unquote change up pitch
behind Shan Gun because they're both obviouslyplaying two different styles at that center spot,

(15:05):
right, So I don't think itwould be a bad thing. And
worst case scenario, Star would becomea piece that valuable to move off both
to another team and another deal.So these are all the questions I'm sure
that that Stone in the front officerthinking about as they're looking at what do
they do with the third overall pick, and you know everyone's talking about Reed

(15:26):
Shepherd and how he could be thepopular mock at that third spot. You
can't rule other options off the tabledepending on how the draft plays out.
Yeah, your latest mock draft,and we should clarify that you publish this
on June first, and it's basedon what you would do, not your
final prediction of what the teams woulddo. But if you were the Rockets,

(15:46):
you actually have them picking Donovan Klingenat three, which has intrigued me.
It does not intrigue Powlo so much, and he could issue a rebubbal
if he wants to, But I'ma clinging guy. I do not see
how he misses. He has aclear skill set that will play in the
NBA. It's something the Rockets don'treally have on this team to an extent.

(16:07):
They have it with Steven Adams,but I don't think you should let
a guy who's now in his thirtiesare basically a one year contract dictate what
you do with an asset as highas number three overall in the draft.
So if Kleanon's on the board,I'm not saying for sure he would be
my guy. But in the draft, where there is a lot of uncertainty,
there's a lot of appeal to aguy who can step in, and
even if it's in just a fifteento twenty minutes per game role behind all

(16:30):
par eension Goon, he can dosome things year one, year two that
help you and the very near termas you're trying to take that next step
into the playoffs. And even iflong term he ends up somewhat blocked because
of the presence of all par eensionGoon. And let's say Shgoon does become
an All Star, he gets thatnext contract and he looks like he's going
to be your starter at center forthe next ten years. Even if that

(16:52):
happens worst case, if Cleanion pansout the way I think he will,
then his role should be very projectable, and he's someone that worst case you
could trade a couple of years fromnow and would still have pretty good value.
If it looks like, you know, he's capped at twenty minutes per
game here because of maybe he can'tdefend in the perimeter well enough. Maybe
neither guy Klingon or Shangoon develops athree point shot well enough. We all

(17:14):
know the questions worst case, evenif those aren't resolved, and I think
if he's the best player available,I'd rather just have to trade him later
on than take a guy who isn'tas good of a player, but I
think is a better fit in yourone or a year two. So that's
my rationale for Klingon. Nathan,what are your thoughts on why he could
make sense for the Rockets even thoughthey have all for in Shangoon right now?

(17:36):
Well, first of all, Ben, I think you hit a lot
of that analysis right on the headthat I was certainly well done by you,
and explain that I would askally alot of those points. And the
one thing I think I would addto that and the reason why I went
with Clayon in that particular mock is, Look, we understand sar Resa say,
maybe you have a wild card inthere, maybe like a modest bazelliz
Ers the fodcast who could possibly bein play for watching it too. We

(17:57):
don't know what they're going to doyet, but regardless, to me,
it seems fairly likely that the Rocketsare going to have again. If they're
on the board at number three,they don't move off of that pick,
They're gonna have a choice of DonovanKlingen or Reed Shepherd, right So,
I know Read Shepherd's been a verypopular market. I'm at I'm a big
Read Shepherd guy. I'm not opposedto the rockets potentially taking Red Shepherd at

(18:22):
all. I think where I wouldhesitate would be, in my opinion,
if you're going to use that highof a pick on someone like Reed Shepherd,
you better be giving him the runwayto actually further develop his skills past
just viewing him as this off ballshooter who can also step in maybe occasionally

(18:44):
touch the ball in some primary possessions, and then you're looking at what he's
doing for you defensively in terms ofcreating a little off ball avoch, you
know, playing passing lanes, gettinghis hands on a few block shots.
If you don't think Reed Shepherd hasa long runway in the NBA's point guard,
you're not, and to develop himand give him that leash in that
regard, I would just allocate thatasset elsewhere. To be perfectly honestly,

(19:06):
I would make another pick. Iwould look at someone like Donovan Klingon,
who ben like I said, youdid a great job of outlining his value,
but just taking a look at thatarchetype in general, that type of
big man who you could have forfour years on a rookie contract at bare
minimum, potentially extended, have himon your team. Have him as someone
who is playing behind Alberta and Schngun. Maybe he's spilling in for Shnegun if

(19:27):
Shehngun gets hurt. We saw Shangunhave an injury towards the end of this
past year. Who says that won'thappen again. Having someone like Donovan Klingon
who's reliable, you can count onhim. You know what he's bringing to
the table. That size on thattype of rookie scale contract, to me,
is potential better use of that assetcompared to drafting a number of other

(19:48):
guys who either aren't as clean ofa fit but the rest of the personnel
on this roster, or you're havingthem come in and play a role that
doesn't necessarily play to them developing ofthe upside they might have. Because I
mean, I can ask you guys. You guys know the Rockets a lot
better than I do. You're watchingevery single game. I'm not watching every
single game. You have Fred vanVliet already on the roster. He's been

(20:10):
fine as a point guard for thisteam. He was a leader. You
kind of got what you expected toget out of him this year. But
then you also have a men Thompson. You're gonna want to have the ball
in his hands a lot in termsof running the offense and seeing how he
can develop as a point guard.You have other wings like a Jalen Green
still on the roster, who youalso want, you know, continuing to
get picking roll reps and then havingtheir impact within the offense. It reads

(20:32):
Shepherd's drafted to the Houston Rockets.You guys even think that he would get
that runway to develop his skill asa point guard, and that would be
his role in terms of taking onmore of the creation aspects and setting the
table for others rather than just you'rehaving him come off a few screens or
having to run a few sets offloppy catching and shooting. I think some
of that is intertwined with a MenThompson and where he's at. I think

(20:55):
his rookie year was really interesting.By and large, it was an encouraging
one, but Men was not nearlyas polished with his handle with his point
guard skills as a lot of usexpected. The good news is that he
was superb off the ball. Hewas incredible and I think a lot of
us didn't expect, especially in yearone, where you worry about a lot
of rookies having awareness issues, notbeing smart enough, not processing quickly enough.

(21:18):
He had the point guard processing evenif he didn't have the handle,
just in terms of how he isable to anticipate to see the floor,
and so because of that, hefunctioned really well as a three. As
afore, even a small ball fiveat times out of the dunker slot is
something of a lob threat, andso that was really useful to the Rockets.
I think in time they would loveto get him back to that point

(21:38):
guard of the future mold that Ithink they envisioned when they drafted him a
year ago. But I think atleast in the short term, because there's
still some developing to be done withhis handle and his point guard skills,
then there's something of a role forReed shepherd the thing for me, I'm
open to read if you think hecan be that next Freds and Fleet.

(21:59):
We had Brian Kelbrowski on a fewweeks ago, and he actually compared Reed
to Fred and I could see thatfrom the perspective of their games, and
I think Fred in that sense wouldbe an ideal mentor for Red. And
so you could see sort of thetemplate for the Rockets, and Fred only
has one more guaranteed year left onhis contract, so potentially Reid could fill
that role in time. It's justfor me, too much of the discourse,

(22:25):
at least on Twitter, on clutchpins, on Reddit that I read regarding
Reed Shepherd is about the shooting whenit should be about the totality of his
game. You mentioned the other elements. Can he develop as a point guard?
What is his on ball defense goingto be? Like? Can you
mitigate his I don't want to sayheight limitations. It's not like he's short,

(22:45):
but he's certainly not big by anymeans, six foot three hundred and
eighty pounds, so there are somelimitations there. How well does he move
side to side, lateral quickness,those types of questions. For me,
it's the totality of the package,because people look at the Rockets and say,
Okay, this is a team that, especially at the All Stebreak last
year, shoots a lot of threes, but the accuracy was below average,

(23:07):
so we need more shooting. Here'sthe thing. The Rockets already have a
full nine man rotation as it is, so if you just want Reed Shepherd
for spacing, it's not going tomake that much of an impact when you're
already playing nine guys in front ofhim. And quite frankly, if you
just want to add a shooter,you can go sign Buddy Healed or Malik
Beasley someone like that with your nontaxpayoit level exception. So this pick should

(23:30):
not be made simply because he's ashooter. And Raffelstone made the point as
well. When he was asked aboutshooting earlier this offseason. He pointed to
the internal guys, and he didn'tuse names. Most notably, he's talking
about Jalen Green, Kim Went Mooreto some extent, Jabori Smith, guys
that internally should get better as theymature because their shot selection is going to
improve. Raffell's point is that it'snot that guys like Jalen and Cam and

(23:53):
Jabori can't shoot well. Jebori's shootingrespectful clip already. But the idea is
that all of them are going toget better as they mature because they're going
to take better shots, and becausethey're taking better shots, they're going to
get higher percentages. That's naturally howguys evolve over their first few years in
the league, and so the Rocketsdo need to shoot better, but I
think it's as how the team seesit. It's less about Okay, this

(24:15):
is a clear need we need tobring in, and it's more the guys
we have internally are going to haveto get better as shooters for us to
take that next step as a team. So that's where I'm at with Reid.
It's not so much that I'm notopen to him. I think some
people on social media think that I'manti Reid. No, I'm not at
all. I'm very open to him. It's it's more about the other elements
of his game, because you shouldn'tbring him in just because he's a shooter.

(24:37):
You should bring him in because youbelieve in his skills defensively, as
a point guard, as a facilitator, as a creator. It's about the
other aspects of its game. Andit feels like that you're high on him
in some of those areas, butit's just you need to have a plan
to develop him and to give himsome runway to develop those skills the next
couple of years. It's not afair characterization. No, So that that's

(25:00):
one hundred percent where I'm at.And if that's not the plan. Then
again, if if all you're lookingfor is read to play that shooter specific
role, I mean you, likeyou said, you can find someone with
that mid level exception. You canfind someone out of the G League to
play similar minutes. But how manyguys are you finding in free agency right

(25:21):
now who're seven foot two or justcame off of dominant exec protection seasons For
a two time national champion who bringthings known quantities to the table that are
based around that size, which issomething we know wins in the NBA,
You're you're not finding that as oftenor as easily as he makes think.
So that that was the reason behindwhy I went with clinging it in my

(25:44):
mockt hit it right on it.That was Ben, Yeah, I get
it. I mean, you're notgonna you're not gonna find someone as high
or the values room protection quite asmuch, or you're not going to find
many people that are value it morethan I do. And people have come
after me for years in Rockets fandombecause of my worries about chang noun and

(26:06):
rim protection. Obviously, so itdoesn't take much convince me to take every
im protecting big. It takes alot to convince me that that from protecting
Bis ever going to be able toplay with Apron Chengun. And if you're
going to spend that, in myopinion, right if you're going to spend
the number three draft pick on abay and you're going to stuff him behind

(26:26):
your team's current best player, whichis the truth, Opportunon is the team's
current best player to me? Notreally is that to me? After establishing
that, I have no hope whatsoeverthat you'll ever be able to play with
Chang Gun both Soul Food that noneneither of them can can even remotely switch
onto the perimeter on offense. Evenif you bought that either Shingoon Kingen's probably

(26:51):
more likely than than the Klingen would. Even if you bought that Clinging can
develop a three points out that that'sobviously a long shot considering his three drow
percent. Just everything doesn't matter whatshows up in random work ofphibees in the
off season. We've learned with thatit's the fourth year of the reveal guys,
we know that those are not real. Even if you believe that sing
wouldn't be the one to word allthis should Even then, I'm not sure

(27:12):
how much value that would bring evenoffensively having those two together, because you
ideally want all run Singun to bethe one in the post making the decisions
out of the post, being thepig that's playing inside, so ideally to
actually have to be clinging that depsitsthat. So I'm not a games drafting
Clingon. I am against a longterm view of the team that includes both

(27:34):
Clingon and Singoon, and an ifI can already see what decisions are really
to be like in a year fromthat, well, Powo, I guess
my only counters that would be whoelse are you picking at that third spot?
Who's actually gonna claim a starting spot? Who's gonna play a lot of
minutes next to shan Gun? Asit is, regardless of what position they're
playing, it's been laid out,and I'd agree with him. This is

(27:56):
a deeper rotation as it is witha lot of young players who quite frankly,
have a right to start on alot of teams in the NBA,
but they're not going to be startingfor this Houston Rocket squad. A lot
of guys who I'm still high on, So I get, I get the
nervousness about wanting the front court mateto or or someone drafted in the front
court to be able to play withshn Goon. But who's taking Jabari Smith's

(28:18):
job? For example, who's takingCam Whitmore, Atari Eastern or a Men
Thompson's job. Who's taking Jellen Green'sjob, Who's taking Fred Banvlieder Dylan Brooks's
job? Like that, that tome what I'm looking at with this third
overall pick. And in my opinion, if you're using this pick, you're
looking to actually add to this teamfrom a depth perspective. And then depending
on other moves that can shake outduring this season, around the trade deadline

(28:41):
er after this next upcoming season,then maybe we're talking about who's actually going
to take one of those starting spotsthat could be up for grabs if guys
are moved or they're not in theteam altogether. But right now, I
think you are looking at it froma depth perspective. So who else are
you looking at Kaala with that thirdpick, who you think could could crash
and get into that Medits parade rightaway? So I'm a remember said with

(29:06):
you, I don't think that anyguy that they draft in this spot is
likely to just jump into the startinglineup, even just jumping into the relation
will be questionable. But to me, and and after some this I think
two or three parts ago, it'sabout having a realistic path towards that role
opening up right, A portishing Goonis a staple of this team, at

(29:30):
least that's current construct Constructor obviously ifyou if you're going into my history,
will obviously find some ariz what he'snot. But let's assume that he is
amongst the young Gore. He isprobably besides Aman Thompson, the guy that's
most likely to be here longer orParis corp CITs with everyone. But of
the of the core you know,superstar but themse type of players, he's

(29:53):
one of the most likely to behere. And he ham seins your team
building up right. So he cannotplay with Clinging, and it's in the
foreseeable future he won't be able toplay with the guy like Klingen. So
you're eventually going to have to makethe Chloe my personal favorite pick at number
three. And I'll police say itby you know, telling you like I've

(30:14):
told the audience a few times.I don't think that there's an ideal big
here. I think I think theseguys should all be drafted seven or eight
in a normal draft. But mypig is Reach Shepherd because I think that
year one there's the possibility that hecould play. I think he could play
minutes with the second unit, nexttwo men. Thumbs up as the Maine
Ball Hendler because I don't think aman is there yet, and I think

(30:36):
that there's a realistic path that isnot in year one because injuries happened,
so that could be one of theone of the one lays that he gets
there. But if not in yearone, such a fleet is on a
two year deal with a team option. If if the Goss have things that
Reach Shepherd is good enough, there'sa very you know, easy path to
either promoting Amen Thumbs into the startinglineup and having Reach Shepherd be the third

(31:00):
guard of the bench, or Ithink that there's a lot of parallels between
the Reach Shepherd's game and what presentlythat as far as what does you support
the rockets in the pick and roll, which is gonna be able to put
this stop covered? I think iteven be better at finishing at the room
than first ailit is because that's theirweakness. I think we'd give up a
little bit on the defensive end,as I said in previous spots, but

(31:21):
I think there's a very clear visionof what instituting reach Shepherd, if you
look at it as a three yearplan, looks like as opposed and I
think you have to at least havethat. And with clinging, there's there's
there's a hard ceiling called alburn Shingunthat you're never going to be able to
break. And yes, I doget that. If you hit the picic,
then always tray the guy later.But the guy straight value is always

(31:45):
is also always going to have aclass sing because he's not a starter,
and there's someone on your seeing that'sbetter, and other teams know there's another
on your team that's better, andthat's not exactly in the best negotiating position
to deal with him because you're pressuredby his agent, by the player in
himself. Just the guy drafted thenumber three is not gonna want to be
a backup for the entirety of therookie contract, and butter when cleaning them

(32:07):
as long as our purseinquence here willmore than likely be you know, an
over drafted backup. So to meat at three that needs to be at
least you know, a realistic path, not something defined because everything changes in
the NBA. Traits happened, ofcourse, but something natural that doesn't lead
you in a pimp in the casea move doesn't happen down the line,

(32:29):
is what I would because we've said, we've we've won from from rafel Stone
and he said this multiple times.That optionality is you know, the biggest
thing for him, right is ithere? And when you start drafting a
guy like cleaning and already having opportuneand you're kind of limiting your optionality and

(32:49):
you're making yourself predictable and being predictableor having only one course of action or
or a couple of courses of actionlong term doesn't both well for negotiations.
That'd be the hot to make surewant on well on, let me what
I said, Let me jump inwith a couple of things on Klingon and
then I want to transition this backto read. So a couple of tidbits
I've picked up. We talked onour last pot about Donovan Klingen, an

(33:10):
all Per and Shong Goon sharing anagent. I've heard at least from the
Rockets perspective, that's not a hugedeal. It's something that I don't want
to say it's a non factor.But they're going to treat him the same
way they would any other prospect.He is under consideration. And to that
point, I've heard that Klingon doesplan to work out with the Rockets.
I don't know if that's happened justyet. I don't have an exact timetable

(33:31):
on that. But this is nothinglike either the Rockets or Klingon's camp saying
no interest at all. This isa no go. They are open to
this, and part of the rationale. I don't know this. This is
just me speculating, but as I'vesaid a few times, I do think
Klingon's role is very projectable. Ithink he's the type of player and the

(33:52):
type of unique body type that Ithink teams around the league. Even if
his minutes are capped in the earlystages of his career, if he eventually
does need to move on to maximizehis permanent value, then I think as
opposed to something of a unique prospectwhere you need to have a long sample

(34:13):
and who knows. As Nathan mentionedearlier, maybe Shingoon gets hurt and that
happens anyway, But if it doesn'thappen, I think Clinging is the type
of guy you know what he is, and so I think to an extent,
not totally Powell's points on leverage orfair, but I think it does
mitigate the trade concerns just a littlebit. Not saying you draft a guy
for the intent of trading him.I'm just saying, if you do view
Clingon as the best player available,I don't think you should take a lesser

(34:35):
player simply because that pathway is therefor the first three years in a more
clear way than it would be forClingon. Not that there's no path because
again, he can definitely get fifteento twenty minutes, it's just beyond that.
Yeah, that's a fair question untilone of those guys can defend in
the perimeter or develops a three pointshot, as far as reed Shepherd.
And this is what I'm curious tosee Nathan's take on. So there's been

(34:57):
a lot written about how much analyticsmodels love him. Obviously, he shot
about fifty percent from three at Kentucky. He's a type of guy who has
floor spacing that goes beyond the threepoint line, really out to twenty five
plus feet, the type of gravitationalpull you hear a lot about in the
modern NBA, and so the modelslove him. A lot of the models
have him as the best guy inhis class. He had the forty two

(35:22):
inch vertical at the combine, YadA, YadA. At the same time,
because he came off the bench,because he played just one year at Kentucky,
the sample is very small. He'salso a smaller guy than usual for
a guy that has those skills.So, Nathan, how do you reconcile
the analytics for Reed Shepherd with thesmall sample? How much of it do

(35:44):
you buy and how much of itdo you take with a grain of salt
because he is a little bit smallerand because the sample is a little bit
less than you would like. SoI completely buy into the shooting aspect of
Okay Gate. I don't think there'san argument against him as a shooter,
not only because of the percentages,the raw percentages, but also the types

(36:06):
of shots that he hit, thefact that he made shots for literally everywhere
on the floor. Even if you'relooking at him as someone who was able
to finish at the basket. No, he didn't pressure the rim a Ton,
but he certainly made advantage of hisshots when he got there. And
I think a lot of that istied to the fact that Reid's very aware
of what's going on, and he'salso very aware of the player that he

(36:28):
is and what he's good at.He knows exactly what he wants to do,
and he knows how to do iton the floor at any given time.
If you throw out that very lastgame with the season for Kentucky out
as the outlier, honestly for bothhim and Rob Dillingham, and you look
at the sample size of the seasonitself, and you even go back and
watch some of the high school tapewith Reid, you see someone who has

(36:50):
a little more on ball juice thanI think given credit for it. Just
because he didn't get to show itoff at higher volume at Kentucky, it
doesn't mean it's not there. Becausewhen he did get those opportunities, when
he did get to take the line'sshare of the shots, when he did
get to dictate the line's share ofthe pick and roll possessions, he was
efficient. He found guys, hefound shots for himself, and he did
have a command over that offense ina way that was different from Rob dilling

(37:15):
Rob Dillingham, but in terms ofoverall impact was very similar to him.
So I do think if you actuallygo back and watch some of the tape
in some of those games, likeI said, where we have more opportunity,
you'll see everything you want to seein terms of him actually running the
floor as a point guard is concerned. So if I'm buying into his pathway
as a creator for himself, acreator for others, and a shooter.

(37:37):
The most interesting thing Ben, thatyou did touch on when we first started
to talk about options at the thirdpick was the defensive aspect of Shepard because
he is an undersized player. Youtalked about how bus is he going to
be on the ball defensively in theNBA. I think he has good instincts.
I think he's got good feet,I think he has quick hands.
But there is just an inherent natureof if you aren't, you know,

(38:00):
six six and above, at acertain weight class, with a certain wingspan,
there are going to be guys whoyou're matched up on who will just
figure out ways to get buckets overyou or through you. That's just going
to happen at the end of theday. Now, The optimistic upside for
the Houston Rockets if three shepherds thepick is that they have a bunch of
guys behind him who are big,strong, long wings and forwards who can

(38:23):
make up a lot of that groundand help them out in those situations.
And because you have those guys whoare going to be pressuring ball handlers on
the ball or capping and capping alltheir rotations away from the ball, making
life difficult for guys to get openor take advantage of certain cutting lanes to
the basket. Then you have aguy like Reed who has his head on

(38:45):
a swivel, understands very much sowhat his role is defensive lane. He's
going to be able to capitalize onthose mistakes that those other players behind him
are able to force. So becauseof the situation of the Rockets, you're
able to mitigate some of those concernsaround his primary on ball top the key
defense because of the team's construct Andthat's why you just break down every single

(39:07):
one of those points individually. Ben, It's it's very hard for me to
argue against Read being the pick.Again, if you view him in a
similar light that I do as apoint guard, and you're going to give
him that runway to develop. That'swhy I'm not going to fight Palo on
his stuff his pick with third overall. Like I said, I'm very much
a reader, Ben. I thinkReed Shepherd can fit on virtually any team

(39:30):
in this class. But it's amatter of with a top five pick and
the type of value prop is thisyear expecting from that pick, are you
going to give him the runway tobecome the best version of himself. If
you are, then absolutely take aswing on someone like Reid because I buy
it. Yeah, I think,as I said, I don't think there's
the wrong pick here. That's justbigs that I like more than another's issue.

(39:52):
I mean, you followed me fora long time, you know how
it was with there's a wrong picksomewhere. Man, This this draft stuff
is hard. You said col Wearat pick three, that would be the
wrong pick. No, No,no, that would be the greatest.
Listen, We'll get to colttle whereeventfully, right. Just I've promised,
Ben, We're not going to goa single body of me asking the guests

(40:14):
what's wrong with coloilware, because Imean I kind of see it, but
I don't see it to the levelof he's not a top ten pick in
this rap. But being said,before we get to clil where let's talk
a little bit about some of theyou know, less likely guys that the
Rockets could take it three or youknow, I guess I'll swim in a
different way. There's been talk aboutthe Rockets trading back. There's been the

(40:35):
Grizzlies at nine, There's been youknow, Lael Blazers, Yeah, the
Vlozers lets have been wanting to moveup as well. I know you didn't
like my my mock trade with Simon'scoming to the Rockets and then pick three
going to the to the Blazers.I've tweaked it a bunch, but people
still don't like it. So I'lljust quit on that. I mean,
we can talk about the trade proposalthat I came up with if you want

(40:57):
to go down that rabbit hole,because I knew I figure that trade was
gonna come up at some point onwait with Steward, then did you have
one? So if you're looking ata potential construction on how that trade could
look, right, you're looking atSimons and the fourteenth pick from Portland and
you're looking at Houston trading one ofSteven Adams or Jack Landel, you're picking

(41:21):
up Jeff Green's option, you're throwinghim in the deal, You're training Jayshawn
Taate, and then it's a pickswap basically that third for the fourteenth,
and then you probably have to throwin I have like a twenty twenty seven
Houston Top five protected first. That'sprobably along the lines of what the trade
looks like. I'm assuming you've probablyarrived at a similar machination your self,
Pollow. I think my only argumentagainst you when you said about it,

(41:43):
it's not that I don't like thetrade, because I do. I'm very
high on Infrey Simon's and what hecan still be in the NBA. My
issue with it is it's primarily it'sprimarily a dump for Portland in terms of
they're just moving off of Anthony Simonbecause they think they're either going to find
a better fit or they have otherfits on the roster itself. I know

(42:06):
you're getting that third pick, you'retechnically moving up in spots to be able
to get add another young player tothat core, but I just don't see
the motivation for Portland doing a tradelike that, and that again, what
I laid out, and what I'veseen you layout power like those are likely
constructions of what the trade look like. I just don't see Portland's motivation personally

(42:29):
for doing that type of a deal. But maybe I'm wrong, Maybe something
like that can be in play.Yeah, I'm actually so. I actually
expected this to be for the apartment. I actually would consider the trade that
you that you'd just laid out,mainly because you were careful enough not to
include Mets picks because and this isthe thing that people aren't having quite yet,

(42:49):
but I think they'll they'll have itas we get closer to or more
of those picks eventually casting, inwhich is Dorokuets have their own picks past
twenty twenty seven, like any ofthe tea when we Rockets swampus have been
used to not having your pics fora long time, or than being shaky
because of the ross of Westbrook tradeit might take for a while. Has
when I probably rather trade pro sectedHouston's own picks from twenty twenty seven on

(43:15):
than the booking picks in the nextthree years, because I want to retain
the upside with those drafts. Andactually I don't hate your trade I'll actually
consider it. My version of itwould be more controversial because instead of the
pick, I was considering perhaps ifthe Rockets can't come to an extension number

(43:36):
Jalen and how Porcelae would value him, and I don't know if they would,
because they do have Shade and Sharp. It's a similar arch type and
you know there's a lot of overlapthere, and he until it probably brings
all of the same reasons that Iwould think Porble would consider the moving on
from Simons. But in the endit's talking about it just as a concept.

(43:58):
I've obviously I've been the Simon signedfor a long time. When he
hits three, you can see hewas you know, I was hoping that
Fortram would consider a sign and tradeup something of the sort. I think
he's primed to have. You know, he was behind the Liward and obviously
now there's Schoot Henderson and Satan Sharpwhen the under aid him and tearm Me
Grant, and I think he's ina little bit of a position kind of

(44:20):
like not obviously to the cinemas andthen I'm saying he's going to become an
MVP. But what James Harden waswith the Thunder before he came to Houston
and had, you know, hisown team. And I'm not saying I'm
for this, Appeals would have hisown team here, but he could bring
you know, he'd be sure fightthe insurance you wouldn't extend, so then
past the second year, you wouldn'tpick up the team up and he could

(44:40):
play a lot of the same rolehe long term fits Relio Alderman Thompson.
I think him scaled up both asa scorer and as a playmaker. He
has a lot more of the show. And it makes sense from the perspective
of the Rockets are moving off ofthe rebuild and into you know, contention
or first playoff or first playoffs,but eventually contention. And it makes somewhat

(45:07):
some sense to bet on a guythat I think is at this point proven.
He has multiple twenty point pre gameseasons and efficient shooting, you know,
efficient a system of a ratio insteadof actually to me a fairly not
as similar but a somewhat comparable prospectin read Shepherd as far as the spacing
goes, and being a small guardand what that details Tin building was,

(45:29):
you know, you'd be pretty happyif Reed Shepherd became what everything Simons is
right now, and so it wouldmake sense for just from a from a
you know, concept standpoint, thatthe Rockets would bet on the guy that's
safer this point, which is obviouslyempany Simons and Portland could perhaps be enamored
by. Obviously, I don't thinkhe's the guy that they would want.

(45:50):
I think they won't cling and butenambered by the upside of someone like Clingen
or like read Shepherd. And asfar as further motivation, I mean,
if they are all on school Tendersonand they have no reason to not be
all in an unsaved and sharp,he's always going to be, you know,
a six man type of guy.And he's pretty expensive for the six

(46:12):
man type of guy. Long term. I think he's had twenty five million
a year, and I don't knowif the value was right, And so
if the Blazers lacked the guy enoughat three, I could see it happening.
And obviously I'm not obviously not doingeither of these deals if kill Aware
is not there at fourteen, SoI'll bust it off with that. Yeah,
I would just add, well,first off, I wouldn't do it

(46:34):
because I'm a Jalen Green Guy.After seeing what he did in March,
I'm bought in enough that unless thedelta is massive between what he wants and
what the Rockets are willing to give, And quite frankly, even in that
scenario, I think there's no harmin waiting until the trade deadline and seeing
if what you saw in March isreal. Because when you look at what

(46:59):
the mac figure would be relative tohis cap hold, which is the number
two overall pick would be over thirtyone million dollars on your twenty twenty five
salary books, there's really not thatmuch downside, and I think you could
move him for comparable value later on. So I think there's more upside to
Jalen than to uh Simon. SoI would stay the course. But I

(47:20):
will say that I think a lotof Rockets fans are thinking to idealistically and
not enough practically when it comes toa trade like that, because, as
we've mentioned a couple of times already, you have a dying man rotation.
So if you bring in Anthony Simons, who is he going to play over?
Who is he going to take minutesfrom? Where is his where are
his shot attempts going to come from. So if you just add Jalen Green,

(47:44):
or if you add Anthony Simons toJalen Green, then it sounds great
on paper, but then in termsof how it actually plays out on the
floor, yeah, that's a bigquestion as opposed to the construction that Paleo
put out there. If Jalen Greenis a part of it, then at
least it's clear where Simon's role wouldcome from. At that point, it's

(48:06):
just a question of whether the Rocketswould would give up Jalen for Simons,
who has a couple of years left. I say, you know, but
it's not a super long term dealto just to you know, just to
not make it super outrageous for thefans out there. Perhaps if you include
Jalen then perhaps it's seven instead offourteen or some different arrangement. Right.

(48:27):
I was just thinking, you know, because the Rockets have, as you
said, so many prospects. Ifyou were to bring a guy that will
take a clip of minutes like Simon's, he'd probably have to give up a
guy that's going to get a tipof minutes. If yeah, that is
Kalen, If it's if it's tailing, it's Tale, and if it's Dalen
Brooks, Silan Brooks, if it'sFred himself in a Threeteaen trade or some
sort of I'm just saying, yeah, that is always times my Yeah.

(48:47):
That was my general point was thatyou need to think where is his role
going to come from? Because I'veseen a lot of people looking at Simon
saying, wow, this is thetwenty plus points per game score on good
efficiency that if you can just addhim for pick three, Okay, well,
then it's like the Reed Shepherd questionon steroids. You know we're talking
with Nathan earlier, is are yougoing to give Read the runway to develop?
I mean, that's a guy who'snineteen years old. Now you're talking

(49:08):
about flipping the pick for an accomplishedguy in his mid twenties. Where is
his role going to come from?Not saying you can't make the argument for
it. You can in forty Simonsis a good player, but you need
to be able. You need tothink about this in the context of your
current team. And so even ifI don't agree with the idea of trading
Jalen for Simons, I do respectwhere you're coming from with the logic of

(49:30):
it. I think in regards tothat specific construction, I see where Pale's
coming where Ben's coming from. Ido think if you've made that type of
move for Simons, though, you'renot necessarily looking at him and Jalen to
be your answer in the backpark,because defensively, that's going to create a
number of different problems. So evenif you don't include Jalen and it trades

(49:52):
the Plazers, theoretically you would probablyhave to move him in a separate deal
potentially, And so I still thinkyou're running into the same issue. And
if you are believing in Jalen Green'supside of what he could be on that
scalable number, then then yeah,I don't think you're pursuing that type of
trait. But that's just pouring outwhat that hypothetical type of deal would look

(50:14):
like. I mean, you're probablylooking at him playing over Fred van Bleep,
but like what happens to Fred.I already mentioned the jailing greed aspect
of something like that. You know, then what are you looking at using
the fourteenth pick on or whatever else. But there's a lot of questions that
still stem from that. But itseems like Paolo is this pretty head set

(50:35):
on Colo where as a potential HoustonRocket. Yeah, and I'm bearing that
until the end because I really don'tthink the Rockets are going to be in
position to draft colol Where. Andit's funny because somehow Powlo is hating on
Donovan Klingen because of ulverin Shongoon,but he is keeping himself open to the
will Where possibility, although I willconcede that Where does move his feet on

(50:58):
the perimeter a bit better than DonovanClinton does. On the other hand,
I could also point to Christian Wood, Powell's favorite player as a template for
cohl Ware, although I know he'llshut anyone down who dares to say that,
So we'll table that for the veryend. As far as more reasonable
trade down scenarios, which I don'tthink would be for collel Ware, So

(51:20):
we mentioned Memphis at nine, that'sbeen rumored a few places, Portland at
seven or fourteen. I'm curious yourthoughts, Nathan on potential trade down targets
for the Rockets if they do movedown a few slots in the lottery,
Like I'm looking at your mock draft, and this is as mentioned earlier,
guys that you're personally higher on thanthe consensus. You've got boozlis, Ron

(51:45):
Holland, Stefan Castle, guys thatyou're a little higher on than some Maybe
one of those guys, Holland inparticular, someone who seems to be falling
at least in the consensus mocks thatI've seen, so maybe he's a target
later on. And he's someone whoyou know, the Rockets have talked about
that they're not afraid to put aguy in the G League for a little

(52:06):
bit if they feel they need to, because they do have a crowded rotation
already. We saw them do thatin the first half of last season with
Cam Witmore, who proved that youjust couldn't hold him down there. He
was ready sooner than they expected,and so eventually he pushed his way into
the rotation. And you know,if you have too many good players,
that's ultimately a good problem to have, works case you can make a trade
later on, as we talked aboutduring the cling and hypothetical, But in

(52:29):
these scenarios where the Rockets might movedown a few slots, who are some
guys that you think are you know, good or bad fits? And you
know I mentioned the three that you'rea little higher on that might could be
a target if they move back afew slots. I'll mention someone that I'm
a little hesitant on, even thoughI think he would fit the need.
I would worry about Dalton connect withthe Rockets simply because he's a guy who's

(52:52):
twenty three years old, ready toplay now, and yet the Rockets don't
really have a clear role for arookie that they're going to bring in,
and if they just want shooting thismentioned earlier, you can get a guy
like that with the mL So asfar as developing the other aspect of Dalton's
game, I don't really know thathe's a fit, especially as someone that

(53:14):
is twenty three years old needs toplay right now. I don't know that
the Rockets are the best fit forhim. A guy like Boozalis or Holland.
Perhaps there's a fit in Houston becauseagain there's more optionality, you can
sort of develop them on a longertime frame. That's just my initial thoughts,
Nathan. As far as trade downscenarios, is there anyone that you're

(53:35):
particularly drawn to or against when itcomes to fitting with the Rockets, Well,
you talked about the three guys thatI'm higher than consensus on if we're
talking about fits with the Rockets.Out of those three, I'm probably the
biggest offon Castle fan, and Ihave been for the majority of this cycle.
I feel like I was on anisland along with some of my former

(53:58):
no Ceilings teammates, staying high onon Stefun Castle for a lot of the
cycle. But it proved out righthe is. He's a six foot six
jubbo guard slash, a decent sizedwing, someone who compares favorably physically to
someone like a Jimmy Butler. Iknow their games are different right now,
but when you take a look atCastle, I get it. The concern

(54:20):
is gonna be there in terms ofthe shooting, and you have that shooting
concern with any of those three names, you can have them with the number
of the players who would be pickedafter those three names as well. But
when you look at Castle, hedoes so many other things ball on the
floor that you just can't ignore.Right his perimeter, his on ball defense
is superb, not necessarily creating alot of deflections and looking to create a

(54:43):
lot of turnovers to get out intransition. But in terms of his no
nonsense I'm gonna keep you in frontof me defense, I'm not gonna let
you get a good shot real they'retaking a tough shot over me, or
you're kicking the ball to somebody else, which is potentially opening up the hole
for one of those other guys onthe rock Gets we're talking about these other
big wings to capitalize on some ofthose turnover opportunities. I think he would

(55:05):
fit really well defensively at the pointof attack. Alongside some of the options
for the Houston Rockets. He offersplaymaking ability right you saw him operate in
the pick and roll game, developa really strong two man game with clinging.
I could see him and shng Gunbeing really fun dance partners at the
NBA level. And then if youdo start to break down some of the

(55:25):
scoring, good finisher at the rim, underrated athlete, someone who can go
up off two feet and get catcha lobber or cut to the basket,
finish wall around the rim. Hegained a lot more confidence later in the
season in terms of pull up,jump shooting and stepping into some of those
spot up looks that he took onthe wing, and that confidence is a

(55:45):
big part in his shooting aspect,along with the fact that as the year
went on, he kept getting betterand better and better and better from the
free throw line. And then hesaw him walk up to the NBA Draft
combine and knock a lot of hisshooting drill out of the park. So
it's someone who, again you don'thave the large sample size of shooting success
in college, but you do havesomeone who at the very least was more

(56:08):
and more willing to take those shotsas the year went on. And now
it seems like he was very muchso aware of that part of his game.
He even spoke about it before thecombine even started. Was very self
aware, this is something I needto be able to show, this is
something you need to be able towork on. I'm going to do it.
That's the type of belief I havein myself, and I have full

(56:29):
confidence that he will at the veryleast not be someone who lends up in
like the twenty seven percent range fromthree. I think he's going to end
up somewhere in that thirty three thirtyfour to thirty five percent range from three
as his career goes on. Andif he's that much of a threat with
all of the other positive things thathe brings to the Tamba didn't even mention
his rebounding as a guard slash wing, his screen setting ability as a guard

(56:52):
slash wing. He put all theseother positive things together. I know the
fit may not be the quote unquoteclates in turn ter of well what's he
going to do for the Houston Rocketsfrom day one? But just having a
guy like that on your roughster,if you can go to war with,
then he's gonna show up in thesehigh leverage situations and play his best basketball

(57:13):
as a guy who play it fillsa position of need, a position that
everyone's looking for around the NBA,These bigger guards who can masquerade his wings
defensively and guard up the lineup andscale up. That's the type of player
if he would be available in atrade down scenario. Absolutely, I look
at someone like Castle. Yeah.Once again, you know, I guess

(57:34):
in this rop cycle. You know, Ben knows the guys that I like,
So he asks about the guys thatI don't like. Uh, it's
not that I don't like Castle,it's that I don't like cass four the
Rockets and specific as you said,the fits top the greatest I see in
him, a lot of the sametraits that I expect and then to have
as a point guard moving forward withobviously different players, but a lot of

(57:54):
the same weaknesses as well. AndI think it is a rough Ulstone quote,
don't want to It's not that youdon't want to stack strengths, it's
that you don't want to stack weaknesses. Right. I think he said this
in the past, trust but doyou recall no he did. I think
it was during this season. Butyeah, that's a refel so Cabo.
Yeah. Yeah, So if youdon't want to stack weaknesses, Stefan Castle

(58:15):
and men thumbs and stack at theweaknesses. That being said, moving on
to my favorite topic of every podcastfor the last three weeks, you know,
to the next two weeks, coilWare. First of all, I
need to answer these Christian with allegationsbecause they're absolutely outrageous. But I see
some of the motor concerns. Ialso see that as opposed to Christian would

(58:37):
who I would be scared to deathare sticking out on a walk because it
it becomes too windy and he wearsa baggy coat. He made this fly
with the wind. No, coreis have you stronger thicker he plays.
You know, he is not asscared of contacted christian Wood. This you

(58:57):
can see by you know, justfunctional sense. Just why looking at the
post moves right fading You can't fade, you know, you can't fade away
from the post if you don't geta little bit of set as separation,
if you're not strong enough to youknow, first the foot, the head
and dead fade away right. ChristianWood could not. Christian Wood did not
have any post moves other than kindof those weird up under the need to

(59:22):
foter type of things, because hecouldn't absorb any contact. We can see
you can see cul waves or contactat the colt level already, And so
I don't think you have you know, a lot of the christian Wood issues
defensively as far as motor goes,were compounded by the fact that he did
not have the tools whatsoever to guardanybody other than read Sephard on the post.

(59:44):
So that's the first thing the channelsand I see the motor concerns.
Do you think I don't know whereI did not check what you have them
in your mark, Nathan? Butwhat am I missing? I'm seeing a
guy that can shoot I'm saying,Annet can roop. I'm saying a guy
that's mobile, that has a friendthat he can feel into, that has
you know, some footworks, somecoordination, that has really soft touched on

(01:00:07):
flooters and even his stop shooting form, you know, the persential stuff that
on a litle volume, the substock doesn't look broken. What am I
missing for in such a weak draft, with such a low you know,
superstar upside swings, for this guynot to be one of the top ten
guys being taken. What am Imissing? Nathan has him at seventeen.

(01:00:28):
By the way, So with Colo, where I think a lot of the
let's call it intel related concerns fromlast cycle may have potentially been a bit
overblown by the end of this particularcycle, in the sense of it's not
a secret. There were some thingsthat came out about Coloware regarding his last

(01:00:52):
situation. Jonathan Cavoni reported on thatfor ESPN. So I'm not breaking any
news here, nor do I everwant to share intel as because I am
not a reporter. I usually don'ttalk about those kinds of things a lot
on podcasts, But those concerns werethere. I have not heard anything negatively
on Colo where this cycle as Italked about Corey Tullivan, I talked about

(01:01:14):
him onto No Ceilings podcast episode.So I think a lot of that's been
overblown as of right now June twelfth, twenty twenty four. But in terms
of where people I think are disappointedin his game, it's I think when
people look at the tape, theywant to see a little more from him.

(01:01:35):
And what I mean by that it'syou can tie it to motor.
That can be the word that youuse, but when you take a look
at the things that you would expecta big man areas of for a big
man to dominate it. He hadgood but not excellent offensive rebounding numbers.
He had good but not excellent blocknumbers. I agree with you, he

(01:01:55):
certainly had highlights. Shooting the basketball. I love Apollo was going to the
to the post fadaways. That's somethinghe's shown. He's knocked down some open
spot up threes, a lot ofthe shooting stuff. It's been built for
him as a definitive skill. Buta lot of the people who question some
of these other shooters based on lowvolume and low sample size, it's been

(01:02:15):
low volume and low sample size forColold Wear as well, and he's never
been this consistent. You know,seventy five eighty percent plus free throw shooter
from the lot as well, suggestthat he's gonna come into the NBA and
he's going to effectively space the floorfor it. I still think NBA defenses
are gonna want to make sure thathe could definitively get that shot, and

(01:02:36):
there's gonna be moments where they leavehim open and they test him on that
jump shot a little bit. Idon't think anyone's gonna immediately from day one
trying to hard close out on Wearfrom the perimeter. So those are the
negative things for him, But Palellalso pointed out a lot of the positives
where he makes sense. Right.He's a seven foot, legitimate athletic big
man. He can run the floor, finish lobs. We we talked about

(01:02:58):
his potential space ability, but hewas a dominant defensive rebounder in the second
half of Indiana season, and that'ssomething I know the Houston Rockets could definitely
use some more of. So heis a changeup pitch in his own way
in the sense that he's not likeOpera and Cheng Gun. He's someone who
you can bring off the bench,and it's a different type of look at

(01:03:20):
the five. I know why Powawants to say that those two can play
minutes together. I'm not sure thatI want to play those two minutes together
anyways. To be perfectly honest withyou, I see where more is a
five. I think if you slidehim down to the four, I think
you're gonna be asking for trouble indifferent ways. But if you see him
as a backup five man, someonewho can provide a change of pace for

(01:03:44):
you off the bench, someone whosparingly can play minutes with Sheng Gun easier
than someone like klingon Ken, forexample, I understand the argument for taking
someone like where I honestly haven't wrestledwith successfully. The idea is myself of
I want to see more from whereon the tapeuse He does give me those

(01:04:05):
moments too, where I'm watching himand I'm like, how many guys in
the draft can actually do something likethis? But then there's all these other
little possessions that it may just benitpicking, where I'd want to see him
crash the glass or a little harder, or I want to see him rotain
a little harder, or i'd seehim want to want to drop back and
recover and then block a shot atthe rim, then maybe he could have
gotten It's those plays that we knowhe's talented enough to make, but he

(01:04:29):
doesn't make them on the tape,and that's why you hear a lot of
the motor stuff. That's why someof the concerned stuff bubbles back. But
if we're just evaluating where as araw talent in this class, bed I
mean, I do think he's atop ten talent in this class. It's
just a matter of are you goingto get that guy consistently on a night
tonight basis playing up to his potential. And that's why you know, you

(01:04:53):
say a name like Christian Wood.I know Pawa wants to just spit that
out and throw it in the trash. But that is why you here's some
of those things around where's name?Because you've seen some of it on tape,
You've read all the stuff about somebehind the scenes stuff last year.
That's just naturally part of the draftdiscourse. That's what's going to come up
and come out At this time ofthe year. We're over like two weeks

(01:05:15):
away from the draft, so Iunderstand Palo's argument. I just don't know
if I'm taking him above like thethirteenth or the fourteenth, or all the
way down that I had him likeseventeenth to the Lakers. I think he's
lower than that on my big board. I just think there's other bets at
other positions that I personally would rathermake than where. But I see the

(01:05:38):
argument. A lot of people havestood up and have been talking about where
over the last few weeks. Iunderstand. Yeah, all right, let
me throw in one more question andwe can make this quick. So our
last guest in the pod, DaveArtesty of Clutch Fans, made a really
compelling argument that fans should be thinkingless about fit with the current roster,

(01:06:00):
and it comes to this pick forthe Rockets and more about fit with emy
Udoka. And there's a few reasonsfor that, but most notably, the
Rockets are going into a period wherethere may be more upheable with the roster
that I think fans are accustomed toduring phase one of the rebuild. As
you get into the second contracts,there's a need for consolidation. You're probably
not gonna be able to pay allof these guys, so the facts are,
you're probably not going down the sameroster two to three years from now

(01:06:23):
when it comes to the entirety ofthe young core. Right now, a
core six could be a core sevenif you keep this pick. And so
because of that, it's less abouthow they fit day one and it's more
about fit with the culture, thescheme, what emai Udoka is trying to
build. So with that in mind, I think the traits of ema Udoka
that are pretty clear from his yearin Boston, his first year with the

(01:06:45):
Rockets, I think what most peoplewould say about an emai Udoka led team.
They're known for defense, they're knownfor toughness, they're known for high
IQ. I think that is whathe wants his team to be. And
so when you look at this draftthrough that lens, two guys that pop
to me are the two Connecticut guysDotovn Klingen and Stefan Castle, that have

(01:07:06):
a lot of those traits high IQ. They're mentally and physically tough, they
defend at a high level. Isthere anyone else when you look at the
lottery tier prospects that could be inplay at three or if the Rockets were
hypothetically trade down a few slots inone of these constructions we've thrown out over
the last hour or so, ifthere anyone beyond Klingen or Castle that could

(01:07:29):
fit that mold as far as beinga fit, not necessarily with the Rockets
roster, but a fit with whatim Udoka envisions his team eventually being when
when they're a contender a few yearsfrom now. I mean, first of
all, that that logic. Youcan't disagree with it, right, I
mean I know that I was.I was one person who wanted to slam
that Rockets over this past season ofthirty one and a half wins, and
they got the forty one to fortyone. They wouldn't have done that without

(01:07:54):
a lot of what eb Adoka wasable to bring to the table from a
philosophical standpoint, from a standpoint defensively, they wouldn't have been able to mold
the young talent that they do andactually grow this type of winning culture that
can hopefully produce some playoff level successin this year and in years to come.
So in trying to draft and builda team around that mindset, we

(01:08:17):
talked about those two guys you mentionedhave ben I'm fans of them, both,
But if you're gonna trade down,I don't think you can ignore someone
like Devin Carter either, Right,Devin Carter is going to bring a lot
of those same things to the tabletop. Scrappy, defensive minded guard certainly
at NBA level, athlete, legitimatewingspan when he's depending out on the perimeter.
He's another guy who can create deflections. Was one of the best guard

(01:08:42):
shot blockers that we have in thisdraft class. The Rockets rated twenty first
in terms of block percentage of thispast year, So that's certainly an area
that they can improve upon, notjust around the basket for talking about Scheen
Goon's deficiencies, but certainly elsewhere.I mean, they missed Tara east And
in a lot of these lineups thispast year. And if he can get
you know, similar levels of impactat the guard position, at the point

(01:09:04):
of attack and playing some of thosesimilar lanes, and then you have some
of these other guys to supported behindhim. Yet, why wouldn't you look
at someone like Devin Carr. Imean, I think the biggest thing for
me that I was hung up onduring the draft process of why I wasn't
among this initial wave of scouts andanalysts who wanted to just shove them up

(01:09:25):
near the top of their boards.I was skeptical on the jump shooting and
specifically the touch with him, likehe will he'll get himself caught on some
drives and he'll have to resort tolike a fade away or like a tough
leader, and he won't have likethat shooter soft touch to actually get that
shot to go. It's not justabout the three point inconsistencies that he had

(01:09:45):
before this season. He's got thatmoon ball of a shot, but he
seems competent with it. I thinkI at least trust him to hit it
up with those spot of threes.He's the type of athlete who wants to
go up at the rim and finishover guys, so I don't necessarily worry
to about his at rim finishing.It's those in betweeen areas. But if
you're subscribing to the modern NBA systemsof it's just threes and layups and dunks,

(01:10:09):
baby like. And then you're throwingin what he's going to give you
defensively and how he comes from apro pedigree in the background. Yeah,
if you're trading down Devin Carter askedme one of the names of the lists
you're looking at good stuff, Well, that is Nathan Grubel, who you
can follow at Draft Deeper on Twitter. As far as upcoming content from you,
you mentioned a few of your projectearlier. But I'm guess in the

(01:10:29):
simplest way for fans and our listenersto keep tabs, it's just through that
Draft Deeper Twitter page, correct,So absolutely follow me on Twitter at Draft
Deeper. I'm very active. I'mstill sharing my big board, my mock
drafts through there, up through thisdraft cycle, and then next season I
will be launching a new pro projectcalled Youth Movement MBA. It will be
a newsletter that will be coming out. Stay tuned for more about that.

(01:10:53):
If you follow my follow me onTwitter, you'll get all the information about
that when the time is right.Perfect, All right, Well, I
think that's where we can wrap thingsfor today's episode and for us at the
logger line. If you want morecontent before our next show from Powlo or
myself, the best place to getthat is online where you can follow Polo
on Twitter or x at Palo ALVE'sNBA, me on there at Benjubo's and

(01:11:15):
this show at the logger Line andif you go to the logger Lines Twitter
slash x page, you can findour link tree which has all the links
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(01:11:35):
Brewing, Sports Talk seven ninety.Hit up those links and you can enjoy
their content as well. All right, with those plugs complete, we will
adjourn for today. For Paolo andNathan, I'm Ben, Thanks as always
for listening, and please come backsoon for another new episode of the logger Line.