Reaction to new Jalen Green, Alperen Sengun contracts in Houston

Tuesday's episode features immediate reaction from Ben DuBose and Paulo Alves to Houston's newly announced contract extensions with Jalen Green and Alperen Sengun. Discussion topics include the motivations for each deal; why both make sense for the Rockets; and what the agreements indicate about the remainder of Houston's roster and its potential blueprint moving forward.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome to The lagger Line, an exclusive
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(00:22):
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Speaker 2 (00:39):
Benjubo's here, Paolo Alves there, Welcome to a special breaking
news episode of The logger Line, as always served you
courtesy of Clutch City Lagger of Carbach Brewing. On this Monday,
October twenty first. It is a busy day for the
Houston Rockets, agreeing to contract extensions with both Jalen Green
and Alprin Shongoon. Leading up to the central deadline, it

(01:02):
was thought that the Rockets might not get a deal
done with either because of their potential financial flexibility in
twenty twenty five. Instead, the Rockets got submax deals with
both of those players, all Perens going up to five
years one hundred and eighty five million dollars Jalen Green
up to three years, one hundred and six million dollars.
Both deals have a player option for the final season.

(01:24):
That is something that the Rockets typically don't give out
I think we'll try and explain why they were willing
to do that as we move our way through this
episode full disclosure off the top, it may be a
little more choppy than usual. We're not going to do
nearly as much editing. We know a lot of you
want content, want reaction, so that's what we're going to do.
Consider this basically a live show between Powlo and myself,

(01:48):
and I'm going to let Pawlo take the lead on
this because our listeners who have been checking out the
logger line of late probably know we had a season
preview episode with Craig Ackerman earlier this week that Pawlow
was not able to make. He is able to make
this one. So before I give my thoughts on why,
I do largely agree with the Rockets giving out these
deals and think it's a good day. Powell, what about you?

(02:10):
What's your general reaction to both Shalen and shin Gun
being extended on a day that going in I think
the conventional wisdom was that neither would be extended.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, if you asked me going into the day, or
going into the week or even the month, I would
have like I would have called it a eighty twenty
tens that neither of them got an extension that I
thought for them, it made for killing and specifically in
specific because he's been a starter his entire career. I
thought it made sense for him to bet on his potential,

(02:42):
and he does if he will get into the politics.
Well he still does with this deal, but to a
much later extent and with saying Yune, I guess that
injury late last season made him, you know, question you know,
his basketball mortality. Obviously too early to think about that,
but I mean I can tell you as a young
time myself, the first time that you get no seriously heard,

(03:05):
but until that point, briefigure even invincible. So I think
everybody's gone to do this. I tore my a c
L a few years back, and up until then, I
thought I could do anything, and that was probably the
first major injury that caused them.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
To miss several games.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Right, it was a knee injury that typically scary. I
think that's what made him even more amenable to a
deal that isn't like a full MACT. I think a
lot of players around the league would have his position
would have been willing to say, hey, give me a
full maxer. I'm waiting until next year, and I believe
that he will give it to me anyways, and I
guess as a as as a general before we get

(03:43):
into the specifics a big deal, I think this first
of all, this is a home run Barafelstone and it's not,
you know, new grounds for this podcast. We've you know,
some of his places, even if when, even when it
wasn't as as popular to do so, just because we've
always seen that there's a way to do stuff and

(04:03):
that there's it is still to be gained within the CPA,
and we obviously had the teeniest in that regard with Maury.
We hope often forgot that Ruffles Stone was in that from.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Office as well, and he was responsible for some of them.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
And throughout the last few years there's been multiple transactions
that show us that this from office gets it and
from office knows.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
Where those markets are.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
And you know, it's a bit of a mix between
the analytically driven, although they are still very analytically driven,
but the nerdy, you know, call it basketball nerd side
of it with what Morey seemed to lack, which was
the connections, the relationship with agents and players, the public
perception of how Clay friendlier organization is, and raffles Stone

(04:50):
and his regime have brought a lot of that into
the midst as well. So I was perhaps scared that
that friendliness would eventually lead too in extension time for
him to be more I wouldn't say forgiving, but something
like that in giving players speak contracts because of fostering relationships.

(05:11):
And I was very pleasantly surprised at how he dealt
with this.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
Listen, he took it to the last.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Day and he managed to win shang Un, someone who
most people would tell you is a max player. He
got him to take you know, obviously a seven million
year this coup, which.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
Is massive that that was the mL not too long ago.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
And you know, not only that big deal for me.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
Just throwing throwing things around for me was the fact that.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
He can make an all NBA team this season and
we won't get royally screwed cap lies because of it,
because that's what happens very often. We talked about this
on the spot, so as a general in orle of THEILM,
before we go to the specifics, I had said earlier
in the in the season that I was okay, Max
in Chang gun as well, as long as he didn't
have maxcess gater. That was the one thing that I

(06:01):
wanted to take away in exchange for paying you a
year early. Ruff Alson was able to get that M
seven million a year keeper at the cost obviously have
a player option in the end, which I think is
a small price to play, because what you really care
about is the av the average annual value. So obviously
Twining ten knocked out of the part. It's better than
I could have ever imagined. People were talking in the

(06:23):
group chats about four years one fifty five years one
eighty and I was like, listen, if that, if kling
won was willing to accept that, that the deal would
be done already, because I think that's a tremendous bargain.
And he goes out and he signs five years and
there's eighty five.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
So I think that's just massive.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
For the auto COO of the team going forward and
shifting onto jail. In a little bit, I was, you know,
a little bit colder on the clay one deal. I
wasn't necessarily out in the video I probabished today.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
First reaction was.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
I thought it was a fifty to fifty two, so
fair for both sides.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
I didn't think the Rockets got an edge on it.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
I didn't think Killn got the particularly big edge on it.
It's before I get into the specifics. Before we get
it's the specifics. I guess I'll mention that the way
you view the player option really swings it for me
is that there was no player option. The minute of thought,
with no player option, I think it's a it's a
great deal because there's enough a side in cause he

(07:24):
hits that that player option is the next three year
when he's underpaid compared to his value if he does
it as obviously as a star player. And then when
the player option came in, I was a little bit
colder on it. Knocked it from a from a that
knocked it from what was a six back down to
a five or real fifty to fifty, and then the

(07:45):
beam of that obviously it had to be that to
point this out so quickly said.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Hey David Wiener, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
Obviously, yeah on Twitter.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Sorry he said very quickly that you know, and I
think raf Aso had to have had this in mind,
and this is the first nerdy thing I'll do. I'll
say before passing after you the option is after the
Chaillans year six. The way NBA contracts work, you're elailtible

(08:13):
for a twenty five percent of the sour gap max.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
After or after year seven. In year five, after.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
The year six, you're not only eligible for a twenty
five percent max, which is similar of the cap is
a lot of aad that your giving up, which makes
it very very unlikely that jalen In if it's close
at all, will forego the team option versus or will
take that. It will makes it very very unlikely that
he won't take the team option unless he's a true

(08:42):
star played, in which case I could see an Anthony
Davis type of deal where you know he's so good,
but he can only make twenty five percent of a
gap at this point, so he'll she'll declined the option
sign on one post one for the Maximhney can get
the twenty five percent and then reevaluate the season after,
which is what Anything did eventually do with the Lakers
when he first got there from the Pelicans. So that

(09:05):
knocked it back up to six because twenty five if
he does hit to that extent, twenty five of the
max four Star Players is really nothing. But listen, I've
taken enough. You know, my initial monologue is done.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
I'll let you go on to Dalen Singuon. I'm ready
talk about either of them. I think there's a lot of.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Nuance to work deals. Yeah, and you deserve a monologue
because our listeners certainly know that I am quite known
for those, so it's good for someone else to take
that initial monologue for a change. Look, I think a
good place to start. You mentioned rafel Stone, but let's
give Eli White as his flowers as well, because Eli
is known for his work on the contractual side, and
it did take some creativity to get these deals done.

(09:47):
Give and take on both sides. And if you haven't
listened to my episode with Craig Akerman, which touched on
a number of bigger picture subjects going into this upcoming
season regular cheason openers when Night by the Way, I
thought one of his more revealing answers, I asked him
about im Ujoka and specifically his offensive vision, and ever
since the All Star break last season, this idea that

(10:10):
the Rockets are suddenly much more progressive than I gave
them credit for on the offensive side of the ball.
When it comes to shooting forty plus threes per game
and the math advantage, which we now know they didn't
do it to start last season because you know, you
crawl before you walk, walk before you run, and so
they're trying to limit turnovers. Execute with Fred and Shangoon
in the half court, clean up the bad habits, and

(10:33):
then once you had a half season of better habits,
then install other layers of the offense, pick up the pace,
shoot more threes. And I asked Craig if that surprised
him in any way given e May's reputation as something
of a defensive coach. He was also a defensive minded
role player when he played for small sample size just
one year in Boston. But nonetheless, I don't think we

(10:55):
necessarily expected he May to be that progressive when it
comes to his embrace at the three point Revolution when
he was hired in Houston. I asked if that caught
Craig off Garden anyway, and he mentioned maybe a little bit.
But to keep in mind that rafel Stone and Eli
Whites were part of the Gerald Moury front office, and
so the guys in place when Mike D'Antoni was here

(11:17):
in the late twenty tens, and we know the offense
that was run at that time. They haven't left for
the most part. Gerald Moury left, but there's a reason
why he hired raffel Stone as his number two. There's
a reason why Eli had a key role for all
those years. Yes, the Rockets lost some people like Monty McNair,

(11:37):
like Gerson Roses. There's a few others as well from
the Gerald Moury tree that took jobs elsewhere in the NBA,
but he chose Raffel and Eli to replace them. And
so that's one reason why it never made sense for
me to draw these huge distinctions between Daryl and the
current administration. Sure there are some differences, but the idea

(11:59):
that you can love Gerald Moury yet think rafel Stone
is incompetent, that never made any sense to me because
Jerald chose rafel as his number two. You don't do
that if he doesn't know what he's doing. That was
just something that never made sense. And so in the
micro of ibe Udoka's coaching philosophy, you can see some

(12:20):
of those principles dating back to the twenty tens and
the Mike D'Antoni era, and now in the macro of
team building, you can see it as well, because this
is a deal that I think. I don't want to
say it's a Daryl Mory deal because Deryl Mory for
the most part to not give out player options, but
it feels like a win that we often saw during

(12:41):
the Daryl Moury era. And rather than talk about both
Jalen and Shanoon individually, you covered some of the nuances there,
and I'm sure we'll get into it before the episode closes.
I'm actually gonna look at them together because I do
think that once one deal got done and it leaked
about two thirds that the Rockets had a deal with Jalen,

(13:01):
then about four thirty with Shangoon. I think when one
deal got done, it inherently made the other deal a
little more likely. Because the case for not doing extensions
was potential financial flexibility in twenty twenty five. Well, once
you do one deal, the upside of that financial flexibility
path goes down a little bit. I know there's the

(13:24):
cap hold argument, and there's something to be said for that.
Shoinnggoon is a mid first run pick, having a lower
cap pole, and with Jalen, you didn't necessarily reduce the
the delta much and so he was going to be
on the books unless you let him go at a
high figure in the thirties and average annual value no
matter what. However, what you did do by giving Jalen
that extension was eliminate the scenario where you have the

(13:48):
leverage to potentially let him walk, in other words, getting
to a max salary slot or even beyond, which I
never thought was likely to begin with, because that would
require letting Fred VanVleet go. I think it's pretty clear
if you're being between the lines. I'm sure we'll touch
on that before the episode ends as well, that Fred
has a future in Houston well beyond just this upcoming season.
That's another takeaway from this deal. But I just think

(14:09):
that when you look at everything as a total package,
once you got one deal done, the incentive to play
hardball with the other guy went down a little bit.
And so for me, I'm choosing to look at both
of them combined, and in both cases, you know, three
years one hundred and six million for Jalen, five years

(14:29):
one hundred and eighty five for Shoon. In both cases
five years about two hundred and twenty five million dollars
would have been the max, although if you truly gave
the max, it also would have had the escalator for
all NBA, as you mentioned Palo, that could take it
to another level. And I just think that ultimately these
are deals that make sense for both sides. I don't

(14:50):
think either player took just a total sweetheart deal. Even
in Shangoon's case, it certainly sounds good that you're getting
a player who could have been an All Star last
year at a sub max rate, but it's not like
he's without any questions. He still needs to improve on
the defensive side. He still needs to do it over

(15:12):
a larger sample. It's not that either of these guys
is Victor Wembanyama. They're not so established that there are
zero questions, and so to get that financial security a
year early, look, the Rockets did give something if there's
a major injury this season, if either guy doesn't play
as well, the Rockets did not have to give the

(15:32):
steal until restricted free agency in twenty twenty five in
either case, So the Rockets did give both players financial
security a year earlier than was required. That's not nothing.
And they also gave player options, which historically they don't
do because the way player options work typically they only

(15:52):
get exercised if a player is playing at or more
likely below the value of his contract. If he's exceeding
the value of his contract, he's probably going to get
he's probably going to opt out so that he can
get more money. And of course the idea is that
by taking submax deals but with a player option, then
Jalen and Shangoon can opt out early and then recoup

(16:13):
some of that money that they gave up below the
max on their next deal, assuming their play warrants of max,
and so the Rockets typically don't give those out, but
they did in this case because obviously they're getting something too,
and that's a deal that is below the max in
both years and average annual value in Jalen's case and

(16:33):
in average annual value in Shingoon's case, and not tied
to the all NBA escalator either, So both sides gave something.
I think ultimately that's why it took until deadline day.
Some people were asking me on social media why didn't
this get done earlier because for months we had sort
of operated under the assumption of no deal getting done,

(16:55):
as that being the likely scenario. Well, both sides did
give something, and just as we see each February at
the NBA trade deadline, everyone takes into the deadline to
make sure they're getting the most baken from the other side.
And so we mentioned what the players gave up, but
it's important to note the Rockets gave up something as well,

(17:17):
and so even this month of October, look the Rockets.
You mentioned this, Palow, a couple of pods Ago. The Rockets,
by waiting until October, got to see how seriously both
all Parension Goon and Jalen Green took their bodies over
this off season. We talked about all par eension goons
and proved fitness a couple of pods Ago. Look, maybe

(17:38):
not getting the extension incentivized him to take his diet
more seriously. You made that argument, Palo, I think it
was a really good one. And you also got to
see how they played in the preseason. We talked about
Jalen looking a lot better off the ball, a lot
more calm, and so that was an advantage to them
For the players, they got to go out and you know,
by taking care of their bodies in the off seats

(18:00):
and having a strong preseason maybe that leveraged the Rockets
a little bit more to where it makes Houston sweat
potentially letting them go to a shifted free agency where
all it takes is one team like Brooklyn who potentially
leverage you into a full five year max. And so
the Rockets chose not to wait, and the players gave
up something a little bit by getting this deal in

(18:22):
order to get this deal done. And you're early, and
so that's what it took to make this deal work
for both sides. I think it's a good deal for
the Rockets. I think it's a good deal for the players.
I don't think it's a crazy good deal or bad
deal for either side, but in combination, I think it
makes sense. And for me, the biggest takeaway of this
is that it's an endorsement of the status quo, because

(18:48):
with Shingoon and that lower cap hold, if you were
worried about this plan as is not working out, you
would have had the option to blow things up in
the twenty twenty five offseason. They could have had something
in the range of seventy million dollars in caprom if
they really wanted and had above MAC space. Even keeping

(19:09):
Shingoon's cap hold on the books just by letting the
one year guys expire, turning down Jalen Green's option, and
Fred vn Leet as well the Rockets. This is a
tangible sign that they believe, at least to some extent,
in what they've done to this point, they see enough optimism,

(19:31):
or they have enough optimism from the young guys and
from fredvent Fleet to want to stay the course. It's
not that they're all in on this path, because you know,
trade value is certainly a consideration here, but they've seen
enough to where they're willing to give up, at least
in the short term, a little bit of flexibility, not

(19:52):
all flexibility, because as we've talked about before many times,
some of the big names move by trade rather than
a free agency anyway. And I I do think that
both of these guys are going to be at a
bare minimum neutral trade value, probably more than that in
a Shongoon's case. And so to me, that's the biggest
takeaway here is that they have seen enough value already

(20:14):
through the strides made at a team level and individually
last season and long term. Because you asked you have
to ask the question, what is it worth to the
Rockets other than Tilman Fertita's bank account to get these
guys at a submax deal, because you can certainly argue, look,
why not just stay the course and if these guys

(20:36):
play at a MAX level in the upcoming season, just
give them the max in twenty twenty five. Okay, you
could certainly argue that. However, where this potentially benefits you
is down the line with the other young core guys
coming up for extensions. It is very difficult under the
new CBA with the NBA to keep good teams together,

(20:57):
especially with tons of promising young players that are getting
richer second contracts, and so by saving money relative to
the max on these two guys, it makes it so
much easier to give those second contracts to Jeffries Smith Junior,
Charlie Easton and men Thompson, cam Whitmore read Shepherd all
these other young guys, and so by saving money here,

(21:21):
the idea is that you've seen enough value to where
even if it costs you a little bit of flexibility
in the short term, the Rockets see it as worthwhile
because they like this young core enough that they say,
you know what, We're willing to take a little bit
of our hits a little bit of hit to our
optionality in twenty twenty five, because we like that it

(21:42):
gives us more money down the road in twenty twenty six,
twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight, when these other young
Core guys potentially come up for their second contracts. That
is what these two deals and giving them out a
year in advance represents to me in exchange for getting

(22:03):
a little bit beneath the max. It's an endorsement of
certainly what the guys have shown to this point, but
also the young Core as a whole, and the idea
that maybe this just works out internally. Maybe the Rockets
don't even need to make a major trade, maybe they
just organically build a contender because enough of these guys

(22:23):
get to an All Star or All NBA level themselves.
That's what to me these deals represent. The Rockets see
a pathway to where it could work out simply as is.
That's not say it's for sure going to And you know,
I think one big difference between the deals and this
is where I'll pass it back to you, Powlo. You

(22:44):
can try and draw some distinctions here. With Shindoon, I
think he's shown enough already to where even if he
doesn't become a true all NBA level building block, if
for some reason you decide to go a different direction
or you need more money, he's going to be a
positive trade value guy no matter what he has already shown.

(23:04):
Enough we've seen from Demontes Sibonis that someone at Shinggoon's
current level, forget any future steps, just where Shangoun is now,
is going to be someone that has clearly positive trade
value around the NBA at an average annual value in
the thirties. And so that's why I think Shangoon is
getting a deal into the late twenty twenties, because the

(23:28):
Rockets don't have any concerns about his trade value whatsoever.
And that's why I think that even with the lower capitol,
the Rockets are willing to do the deal with Shangoon
to secure him as a positive asset no matter what.
Even at the cost of that low cap hold than
what that could give you next summer, it's worth it
to have him on a team friendly deal into the
late twenty twenties, into that second contract window for everyone

(23:51):
in the young core with Jalen, because the sample of
Jalen playing at a near all star level is obviously
a lot less than with Shangoon. He's a lot less proven,
he's been more in consistent. There are some more questions there,
and that's why with Jalen it's so crucial to have
the outs in twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight, before
all those other young guys are due their second contracts.

(24:14):
I think with Jalen is such a short term deal,
he's tradeable no matter what, and even if the worst
case scenario happens. And I'm told the Rockets believe Jalen's
in a great place, not just as a player, but
as a person, better than he's ever been, so they're
very optimistic about how this deal is going to age.
But even if the worst case happens on a short
term deal, A, he should be movable, and B even

(24:35):
if he totally bottoms out, Okay, well, you're not giving
him a five year deal. So if you need that
extra money to keep all the other young core guys
and it turns out that it's like a Men and
Reed or cam whoever it may be, is better, then
you're not giving the long term commitment. So that's the
difference between the two deals. With Himgoon, He's gonna be
a positive asset no matter what. You can always figure

(24:57):
something out. With Jalen, it's a little it's a little diceier,
and so that's my His deal is a little bit shorter.
But the bottom line for me is that it's an
endorsement of the status quo. They don't think they're necessarily
going to have to do anything drastic this offseason, and
they've our next off season and they've seen enough that
they are willing to give up a little bit in

(25:18):
the short term for the upside of having a better
pathway to keep this entire group together into their second
contracts and beyond. So for me, it's clearly a win.
Would you consider the totality of it? However, I know, Powlo,
you see some nuances with each individual deal, So you
know where do you sort of draw the lines beyond

(25:39):
you know, the small differences I've already pointed out with
what happened with Shingoon and what happened with Jalen.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yeah, first of all, I wanted to point something out
that I meant to play on the beginning I didn't,
which is I think you know the rockets making the
players earn these deals to the maximum extent that they
could without taking them to restricted.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
The free agency.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Shows, you know, goes hand in hand in the sun
that I haven't seen anybody say that until now goes
hand in hand with the culture that then that then
you don't as trying to till end and I think
other people so that say that this is a streat, but.

Speaker 4 (26:17):
I truly believe it.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
This is a fight for every type of team on
the court, and I think it helps create that culture
when you see, you know, Change is clearly the best
player on the team and Galen's probably the face of
the team, and the rest of the teams see like
these guys they're just not getting, you know, handed max extensions.

(26:40):
It's something that's been going on in the NBA for
a while where guys who have no track workut of winning,
or purely based on potential are getting max deals handed
to them out of their rookie skids.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
And by the way, just to jump and real quickly.
I think that's where it feels like a General Morey
deal the Rockets did negotiate. It's not like so many
deals that you see around the league where you just
put a blank check in front of the player and
his agent for the sake of vibes. The player option specifically,

(27:13):
it's not something that Jerald has given out a lot,
but the concept of saying, hey, we're going to negotiate
it has to work for us. We're not just going
to give you whatever you want just because we can
give you this deal a year early, but we need
to get something out of it too, for the sake
of team building. That's where there are some Gerald Morey similarities,
even if the player option concept is a little different.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, and so what made me think of this culture
type of you know, transcending from the court to the negotiation.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
Table as well.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Is Obviously none of these guys are as good as
Jims Hardan was, But at the same time, this sends
the message that you're not untouchable. The team isn't just
around just about you or with either Seeing or Hilding Green.
Obviously Ting is the better candace to get it, but
you're sending the message that you're not the guy.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
This is a team and.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
We are going to have to, you know, scrape every
inch that we can in order to keep this thing together.
I do to People have claimed that these guys took,
you know, worse contracts sustain.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
He said, I don't believe that.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Let me jump in real quick on that point. I
think it's noteworthy and important to push back on that
angle because if we accept the promise that one or
both of these guys was taking a sweetheart deal for
the sake of the organization, not only is it not accurate,
but you also sort of set you lay the ground

(28:45):
work for then the negotiations in future years being Oh,
Shabbari or a man or whoever it may be, will
you take a little bit less because Shinoon did. No.
I don't think that's how this happened. I think the
press that it sets, and it's a much more sustainable
one long term, is that it's about the team. It's

(29:07):
about being able to build a contender, and we're going
to try and negotiate a fair agreement that works for
both sides. I think that's what happened here, as opposed
to trying to you know, it's not really sustainable to say, oh,
somebody give us a discount, so then you need to
give us a discount down the line to pay it back,
you know, pay the favor forward, whatever it may be. No,

(29:29):
it's it's such a precedent that we're going to try
and negotiate fairly an agreement that works for both sides.
I think that's what happened here.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, and what I under saying, and you kind of
made the point that I was going to make bets,
which is, you know, you're telling these guys that you
know you're not the guy. You're not I mean to
go to troll with the guy right now, but you're not.
You're not on such the team doesn't revolve around you.
We are. You know, we are going to negotiate with you,
just like we will negotiate with anybody else that that makes,
you know, I think that sets a great president as

(30:01):
well for the future deals right for for for a man,
for Ji Bari, for Arry Eason, for everybody. Like we
don't hand out max contracts. Look example, look at the
Denver Nuggets, right obviously obviously there are yokich Is beyond
Yo get played through the next or with other extensions

(30:21):
that I don't think was a max extet at the
time that he signed it because he came he was
second round picked. I don't think he got four years,
so that was a different situation. But wickbl Murray and
Michael Border Junior. But they were both paid and that
time miss was already believed to be the case near
max money, if not MAXI money completely. Murray has Max money.

(30:42):
I don't think Michael Porter Junior has, but it's close
to it. I think, but it's it's Max money but
partially not Karen Seep. What this does is well, we
said the president to Jamulmorey, she wasn't an all startyed
different Max contract. And now Michael Porte Kinder, what's the
same thing. Maybe antally makes sense. So you're gonna pay
them as well. And now all of a sudden you
can't keep Gordon long term.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
You weren't able to keep.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Of the top of my head, but you weren't able
to keep multiple.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
Player Jeff Green with one of them. That's why he
came to us.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
I don't know if cacpiece to that, but over time
you've had to lose key pieces of of your team
because of it, and for them that has to extend
so many guys.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
I think. I think this is so true, and the.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
Suit is why I was I was afriend people called
a stretches so true that you can look at the
other NBA teams, and see this is actually a precedent
that is said when you think about it. So the
Indiana Pacers are known league wide. Listen, this is a
team that's not going to give a max contract, you know,
but I think Halliburton was one of their first ones.

(31:46):
It's just just to keive it to anyone. So Boters
didn't get a max contract. The previous traction of the team,
Victor Oldeople didn't get a max contract. Malcolm Browbmin didn't
get a max contract. Piece. This is the team that
you know tries to get good value deals, that try
to put together a team that's you know, built around
multiple guys.

Speaker 4 (32:05):
She tried.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
The Hawks are known as a team that you know
signs long term extensions, but they don't exactly max guys.
John Collins ended up tropping a great a great deal,
but at the time that he signed his extension, you know,
he was coming off a twenty in ten season. Next
Trae Young, she had more of a face up game
than back then than than he's shown in recent years
when he set out being a role player. But at

(32:27):
the time it was a real discussion whether or not
he should be a max k they didn't give him
max steel.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
He got twenty five million years. Ended up being a.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Bad contract anyways, but it could have been much worse.
There were serious discussions about that, and then you can
you can now they signed Chiln Johnson to a Bowloll
Max deal. Chill Johnson is a very good player, he afforted,
I think eighteen and eight on really good efficiency just
last year after the in the city season, not playing
much and having an injury issue as well. You know,

(32:59):
they didn't give them, you know, based off of potential,
they didn't give.

Speaker 4 (33:03):
Them that max still right away.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Then you have the opposite end of the spectrum. Cleveland
had to pay Mobile max money. They paid Terrius Garland
max money. Right Obviously, the ease with which you give
these deals off sets president for four deals in the future.
Well you maxed Garland, he didn't. He didn't living up
to that deal. He's a good boy, not living up
to it now He's had Max Mobile as well, and the.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
Troth as well. Thread has no ahead.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Basically no levelage anyways. But because of the market Aterian,
but there's you can see clear examples around the way.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
There's teams that.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Are known for getting good value deals. And there are
teams that are teams that are known for being ruled
basically by the star players. The sort players get anything
that they want. This is a very preliminary way of
not giving the players that are vagually boy to become
stars everything that they want. This is, you know, it's
a culture thing, and I really want to hamer that hole.
That being said, and I'll shift into children's country, right.

(34:00):
I think there's a there's a there's a predominant theme
with both contracts, especially Kellern's one, which is looking at
what the most likely realistic scenario.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Is going to be, and how do we feel if
that scenario eventually pans out?

Speaker 3 (34:16):
And which is why I think that they were okay
giving up player options because at that point in Singun's
fourth pears, if he hasn't left up this contract, which
I find very doubtful, and you don't want him to
take that player option. Well, at that point, once you
get to that point, he only has one year left,
taking that player option doesn't seem that much. The value

(34:38):
that you're giving up is mostly if well Singund has
spanned out and they are going to get one less
year of a really team friendly contract. Because they give
a bit of player option. I think that's what most
people are worried about. Well, if that's the most likely outcome,
the Rockets are going to be ecstatic that they got
a bargain for four years and they're okay with after

(34:59):
the four years of being a bargain just paying him
max money afterwards. That's a great problem to have. So
but I think that's why they didn't really mind giving
up that player option, because in most of civil scenarios,
player often doesn't really change that much. In the worst
is snnario, the playofftion extends a construct that's a bad
contract for one next three year as I'm likely that
maybe so not really that much to give up for

(35:21):
the upside that they're kidding.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, it is a reported distinction on the player option
front that for guys in their twenties it's unlikely to
really burn you where player option can be terrible. As
if you're looking at a guy in the thirties and
either he's falling off a cliff age wise or he's hurt,
then yeah, that deal can become toxic if they're young enough.
Worst case, even if it doesn't work out for one

(35:44):
reason or another, or there is an injury, then you
can probably look you can almost certainly find someone that
will see them as potential reclamation project and at worst
case they'd be something close to neutral value. So the
truly bad situations with player options tend to be with
much more veteran players, which was who the Rockets were
targeting in the Gerald Morey era when they were in

(36:04):
full contention mode. So that's why I think a lot
of Rockets fans have such a negative connotation with a
player option. It all depends on the contacts, and the
contacts cure with two guys in their twenties is a
little different.

Speaker 4 (36:15):
Yeah, most of the time.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Once once you lose the upside of the losing the
upside of the player options, she's usually players declining it.
The player option only hurts you on the positive side
of things. If a player decliners, did anyone extend them,
because if your original intend was to get a five yearly,
you were going to get irrigaarteat. Anyway, that being said,
shifting on to jail, and why is it a little

(36:36):
bit different with jail? I think, going back to my
original argument, what's the most likely scenario? I think the
most like listenary for the rockets is you're looking at
your own green and you're thinking optimistically. He gets a
couple of percent of percent out points, not percent unpercentage.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
That's that's a terrible profusion. Please don't make that confuse it.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
You get a couple of percent better through shooting wise,
you get up to fifty seven percent. We have a
last year was fifty eight percent, but including role players
and specialists. Some guy that guys who've gained are tailors
for efficiency for a shot trading guard, fifty seven percent
is more than enough. It's basically what the standard is.
If Jon' gets to that percent on twenty two points

(37:17):
a game, five rebounds for assist, something around that, and
gets that throughout entire year, I think this is the
most likely outcome. Helon gets a little bit better, not
good enough to where he's a sure fire MAX guy,
probably step below. I think that's the reasonable outcome for
the season that happens, and you didn't extend them. Now

(37:38):
we're going to have him hit restricted free agency. You're
not going to be able to sign and trade them
in ninety percent of scenarios because he is because of
how the.

Speaker 4 (37:48):
CPA works, he'll be worth of half.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
The money that he gets paid outgoing so far the
Rockets to save Sauri away and he'll be work double
for the team taking him on. It's really hard to
make that work or as it's the gap space team,
and if it's gaps face, they'll probably just offer him
till Anuwaines his career sign and trade. So if he
had this good not great season, better not awesome season,

(38:13):
which is I think the most wisely outcome, you're in
a spot where well, all of a sudden it is,
you know, reasonable for Jillen to warrant to demand a
max contract and even with a good year, Kiln has
been so inconsistent so far in his career that I
wouldn't be totally comfortable giving him a five year max

(38:34):
off of one good season plus stretches of good seasons
throughout his career.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
He's been in them system. That's exactly his problem.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Why why it's for some people so hard to buy
into jail and is the fact that he'll show the
flashest but it's always short to live and so one year,
while great, doesn't erase the three years past, and you
could be stuck with a zach Lavine tive guy where yes,
he had a great he had some great years. He
got has MAX extension. He's clearly not worth the max extension.

(39:04):
But you don't have the leverage to do anything else.
And you could say, oh, orchestrauld just play the market.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
He is restricted. Wait until another team max.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Is him if Lelly, if Leland Green has a twenty two,
five and four season fifty seven percent through shooting, A
team like the Brooklyn Nets, who has nothing, especially if
if Kemp Pomas doesn't pan out, is surely going too
horfer in that backs money because they can get a
twenty three year old like Cleveland's twenty two This is
twenty twenty two year old season.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
I think a twenty three.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Year old shooting guard with those numbers is to a
team that is not going to be competitive, is more
than worth it, right.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
I can't.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
I mean, that's a very obvious movement. The Nets as
an organization, a Sorroby has been known to give or
to the five Restrictors three agency in the past. Ye
plug one too well, you know Crab and those other guys.
But and the other guy that was from the one
to the Hawks afterwards doesn't matter. So in the most

(40:01):
likely scenario, this.

Speaker 4 (40:03):
Is a really this is a good deal. What does
this do? It gives you?

Speaker 3 (40:07):
So now you're not making a decision off of one
good heal in green year. You're gonna have two more
years to see if he can you know, back that
up before you truly maxim now on time, right, I said,
Now on the other side of the quad, right, what
if kilan Ring doesn't live up to or has the

(40:29):
season quite like his last season twenty five and three
on fifty four, fifty five percent shooting, not create, not
cripplingly bad, but I'll great and instead of going to
the off season he's restricted, You're what's it going to
sign a deal like this? Anyways, He's not going to
get much less than this, and so sorry, I can

(40:50):
use I can use hypotheticals. This hypothetical is after signing
the deal, he has that season, right, which is, well,
we'll see what's going to happen going forward. In that case, Now,
I wouldn't be still even if he had a season
the same as year prior, or maybe in marginal upgrade,
that's not good enough to consider him a good player
yet as a twenty three year old, I still wouldn't

(41:12):
be willing to give up on it, like I would
give him one more season. I think most people will
still be making the argument for him to get one
more season. Well, now, you can't really give him one
more season because he's a shit free agent. I don't
think he's gonna take a one year deal and go.
He hasn't been good enough for you to want to
commit more years to him anyways. So it's you're you're

(41:34):
in a tough spot, but you're not in the worst
spot possible because you would want to give him one
more year anyways.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yeah. So, and it's worth noting by the way these deals,
I know there could be some sicker shock to some
that may that that might not follow the NBA super closely,
but look for young players with upside a starting salary
in today's NBA salary environment in the thirties. That's the
going rate, and if anything, relative to what Shingoon did

(42:04):
last year and what Jalen did in March, it's below
the value they provide to the team and the construct
of a salary cap and the proportion of production that
they represent relative to you know, their spot on the
team's salary books. So please don't get you know, sticker
shocked from seeing these nine figure deals and thinking of
it in you know, human terms, No, think of it

(42:25):
in NBA terms. And so for guys that are already
producing at a starter's level with upside and no injury concerns, Yeah,
even if that sture isn't that great, he would still
get something similar to this, and probably not a short
term Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:39):
And I think.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
The other thing that needs to be addressed is obviously
the player optinnity, which is, as I said before, would
really take it, you know, towards being cold dealer or
an okay deal. No, I was mostly defending the dealer
as far, but I did classify this as a six,
So I don't absolutely love it. I think it's a
fine deal. I think it's It's kind of like if

(43:02):
you're playing blackjack and you get and you get, you know,
two face cards, and the dealer gets to face cards
as well. You're not feeling great, but you're not feeling horrible, right,
You're you're kind of middling, and perhaps you had the
potential for something greater to happen, but you know, it's not.
It's not that bad, and he still holds a lot

(43:22):
of some upside. As you said, you know, thirty five
million is still a little bit above electoral player money,
but it's it's and by the time the deal kicks in,
it's what elcitoral players will be getting. And you know,
obviously you pay a premium for the upside to kill
and has, so I think that's mostly the going rate.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
I just wanted to mention that when it comes to.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
The option, you know, it's not really an option because
what's more likely to happen is he's going to the
coin like ad Like I said, he's going to the
coin the option and the Rockets are if he's that good,
and the Rockets are going to extend them power, give
them one plust one and and figure out the off
season after.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
And the last one I'm like on Jalen's.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Deal is because it is you know, role player not
for great role player money. And Jalen still holds upside.
He's going to be twenty five by the end of
the deal. It's very easy for you to sell him
as value the same way, and I think it's a
perfect camp and people are gonna hate it. It's a

(44:25):
perfect for the situation. Same way Carousel vert Us or
vital A Deepo sold to the rock they were young ish,
you know, they were entering their brands. There were some
hope that they could be great based on the flashes
of being great in previous seasons. There will be there
will still be some value. A rebuilding team will have
no problem taking it. Will fire on a guy like

(44:47):
that to make to keep the.

Speaker 4 (44:48):
Team entertaining while they're thanking, or maybe.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
They will still they're still somehow holding on to hope
that they won't have to thank Jalen had that money.
If the Rockets, if if he's you know, the same
player he is now maybe just a little bit better
there obvious will be more than in a good position
to take him and this check GOV money. Pair him
up with ha Glendale, and all of a sudden, I've
got the exact amount of money that she had to

(45:12):
go trade for the Devin Booker, for example, at the
same position. But let's imagine in two years or in
the year and a half, Jayalen hasn't lived up to
the hype. He has one plus one left on his deal.
He's twenty four, twenty five years old. You're in Brooklyn,
in Brooklyn, not Brooklyn, and Phoenix falls apart, and you
approach Phoenix and you say, hey, here's your future back.

(45:33):
You get you know, the salary ballast is Taylor Green,
which would be the Victrola depot for them what he
was for us.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
And a non injured old depots or more upside Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Yeah, obviously obviously more upside dollar depot.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
You get him, You get this guy to match salary,
you get your picks back. Honestly, that's we've seen that
work gets a trade package force a start before. Specifically
to us, it's a very it's a pretty close one
to one comparison, so it's it's a short enough deal
d as long as it's not catastrophic and given pickomes

(46:09):
out of the league in one year, it will be Yeah,
it'll be it will be tradeable and very fairly easily
so because he's not you know, if it's if it
were a five year deal and he didn't live up
to start expectations, even just the general reputation around the
league would say it would be, oh, that's one of

(46:30):
the worst. Still the entirely it's been three years, it's
a team option. He's still young ish, twenty four, twenty five,
and even if it doesn't pend out enough for him,
because there's also scenarios where he's good, but he's not great,
and for thirty five million of a Contenders gap space,
you'd rather get better production. But for a rebuilding team,

(46:52):
those thirty five million are you don't have to make
max as much on a on your salary cap or
on your on your on your pay roll, And so
I finally having a guy like that, you're betting a
little bit on the upside. It's not you know, we
typically or or what people typically talk about contracts as
as binary. It's either a really good contract or a
really bad one. When we're not talking about star players,

(47:15):
it's it's easy to get stuck in the extremes. And
I think Jalen at the worst case scenario will be
you know ahead, its not a great contract, but it's
not something that you have to attach a first n
bit to dump and industry. You hit the rugers we're
about to find themselves in for the next few years.
Even if it doesn't pan out, I think it's a
it's a more than fair contract, and I think it

(47:37):
works for both sides and for Gilem in specific. I
think it keeps in obviously even more comfortable about with
this deal. Knowing how everybody praises Chilean's work ethic. I
mean obviously early early in his time with Houston, every
obviously he was going to get praised.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
Sorry, they praised.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Every young young you know, Boultshie prospects you work ethic
besides Zion Williams. But now it's been enough time and
there's enough other players on the roster that if there
was an issue there there would be signs. And no
longer is Stiven Salas praise it. John Wick has praised
it there that was never the question, which he's always
been a great guy with a great word hackathic. You

(48:17):
typically do you hear people say that he works more
than the rest of the team. Now have him a
judoka who's not you know, he's not charming, soft, he's
not you know, he's not gonna.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
Say it just to say it.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
He says that as well, and so you pack at
that with this is not exactly the typical prove it deal,
which would be one year deal, but it's very much
also is approved it too, because if he if he
doesn't deliver it the next three years, he's not gonna
have any shot at getting Maximney anywhere So if he
wants to be the star that he wants to speed,
this doesn't or this doesn't you know, set him for

(48:51):
his entire career the same way a five year deal would,
right Listen, I have no questioning of sing good motivation.

Speaker 4 (48:57):
I think he'll be great.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
But if it's a lot easier for get the Cup
Shingun's contract to kind of peace off than the contract
black chailms because you're still motivated to you know, if
you want to reach start them, you're not there yet
and nothing's guarantee.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Right, Okay, So to bring this full circle and to
mind the episode down because we've been going for about
an hour, which is about the max length of our episodes.
And shoot, we haven't even discussed basketball, although on court
that is, but we'll get to that in the coming
days again, regular season starting this Wednesday at home against Charlotte.
So you graded the Jalen deal a little bit lower,

(49:36):
which I think is fair. However, it comes back to
the principle of negotiating, and I think that's the way
these deals should be framed. Why I think it's probably
better to look at it in total that individually we
can note the unique circumstances of each deal, which they're
different from player to player, as they should be. But
in terms of the bigger takeaways, again it's about the

(49:58):
broader negotiation, I think, but the right it's did on
this day as a whole, because the reason the Shinggoon
deal is a home run and the Jalen deal is
probably a good one, but at least at this point
not a home run, it's because the Rockets were in
a better bargaining position with Shinoon because of that lower
cap hoole. That's just the truth, Because it was so

(50:21):
much more platable for the Rockets to extend the window
into restricted free agency with LP and of course they'd
be more secure in matching a five year offer no
matter what, and that lower cap hoole that put the
team in a stronger negotiating position as opposed to with
Jalen his reps new look. There's not that big of
a difference in terms of the implications of now versus

(50:43):
waiting a year, So that incentivised the team a little
bit more to do a deal now. Now, of course
it's not just about that. You have to balance that
against production. What they've shown you over the three years
they've played in the NBA to date, all the factors
that we've been laying out over the last hour, but
I think the difference when it comes to the leverage

(51:04):
point is what made the Shingoon deal a clear win
for the Rockets and the Jalen one if you evaluate
them individually, a pretty good deal, but maybe not quite
to the same extent, and certainly not in the initial
reactions on social media. It just comes down to the
leverage point, and I think that sets a much more
sustainable pathway, as you mentioned, to future negotiations with other

(51:27):
members of your young core as well, because instead of
trying to, you know, pull out the heart strength and say, oh,
so and so took a discount or did us a
solid to keep his young team together, so you should
as well, and then inevitably that chain is going to
break somewhere. This sets the precedent that, look, you're we're
just going to negotiate and based on the market factors
at the time, and figure out a deal that works

(51:50):
best for both sides. And I think that is the
precedent that they've set. It's one that should serve them
well moving forward. Assuming that you know the team is
worth keeping together. And I think both their production as
well as this tangible symbol today that the Rockets have
given with these extensions shows you that they have optimism
that it will the last point that I will make
before closing out my thoughts, and then I'll give you

(52:11):
the last word, Paalo. I think this is clearly an
endorsement in fred Vinfleet as well. There were theoretically other
options the Rockets could have gone after in twenty twenty five.
Certainly the trade path is still there, as we've outlined
throughout the POD. It's not as if Jalen and LP
or negative trade assets by any means, and certainly you

(52:32):
have the salary filler with all these expirings, so it's
not that you can't make a big deal, but you're
not going to go significantly under the cap in twenty
twenty five the way you did in twenty twenty three.
But I think what these deals show you is that
another reason the Rockets were probably unlikely to go under
the cap in twenty twenty five regardless, is because they

(52:53):
value Fred VanVleet, and going significantly below the cap would
require renouncing your rights to and I think at this point,
you know a lot of people, I think both of
us at times have used you know, training wheels as
the analogy for Fred's role with the Rockets, but that's
only partly true. I think we can use the training

(53:16):
wheels analogy to describe the role Fred played last year
in terms of being an on ball you know, traditional
floor general setting up the offense. But the Rockets view
him is more than that. The shooting is elite, and
beyond that, he's an extension of email joke it in
terms of the leadership, the culture on the court, in

(53:38):
the locker room. And so the hope is that as
the years progressed, and maybe as soon as this year.
Jonathan Fagan and The Chronicle had a great article about
this just a couple of days ago, maybe Fred transitions
into something more of an off ball roll. But it
shouldn't be oversimplified to where, oh, when the Rockets don't
need last year's version of Fred to to run the

(54:01):
offense and initiate all the sets, that they don't need
Fred at all. No, that's not the way they look
at him. They view this as a long term partnership.
That's been clear for weeks. We've heard the start a
training gimp that you know, Fred said, I'm a Houstonian.
He moved his family down here. He's not looking at
this at a short term situation, even though he's just
here for right now on his first contract. It's clear

(54:21):
that both sides have talked about a partnership going beyond that.
Not a guarantee. Of course, circumstances can change, but I
think what this shows you is that the plan for
both sides is to go well into the twenty twenties
with Fred VanVleet on this team. It may not be
the same role as last year, but in terms of
at least the shooting, the leadership, the culture, the organization,

(54:44):
there's going to be a place for Fred no matter what.
He's a part of their longer term blueprint, even if
the specific x's and those roles changes. And so because
of that, if Fred is a part of your longer
term future, then the value of that twenty twenty five
flexibility goes down a little bit because you're most likely
going to have Fred on your books. And so that's

(55:04):
another thing that could sort of tip the scales in
favor of doing a deal early with Jalen and Schangun,
which is ultimately what happens. So most of this is
about Jalen in Shangoon and getting deals that make sense
for both the players and the team, and I'm bullish
about them. But I also think it says something positive
about Fred as well and where he fits in the
longer term blueprint, which clearly, in my opinion, goes beyond

(55:25):
this year. And I think it's even more clear after today.
That's enough for me on this spot, Polo. Any last
words before we close.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
Out, Yeah, I'll just say that I'm with you on
thread and I think the training wheel's analogy isn't exactly wrong,
but the way the training wheels are the poet can
chang kill over time we talking about this, he's the
training wheels and the stunning one up right now. If
we chapperd steps up, Vico men FuMB some steps up,
in two years, he can be just those same training

(55:51):
wheels in the second unit. And you know, people were
really crazy saying in my self included when it was
three year, saying he's overpaid.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Right now, Well, you look at the.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
Extension that Aaron Gordon just signed that ed we're recording this, Pobl.
He mentioned that before he just signed it. As we're recording.
He's gonna get paid EFM numbers, taking thirty seven million
a year thirty seven. He's going to be paid more
than Jillen Green one Stilen Bean's extension kicks in. Aaron
Gordon is a valuable role player, perhaps in his best days,

(56:25):
maybe a little bit of a trademll type with the
switch ability and he's passing, but he's also a twenty
eight percent career three point heard. He's not He's not
a falless roleplayer whatsoever. He's gonna make thirty thirty six
million dollars a year for three years. It's not even
a one year bloaded deal. And so that makes you
feel a lot better about Fred Edwards forty two, which

(56:46):
was supposed to be aboard a deal, and I'd say it,
I'd probably head towards Bread as a player. Ala value
can vince the court. But even if you say it's arguable,
it's a you know, it's a five six million dollar
different per year, and i'd argue that in next effect's next. Still,
I think the most widely thing that to do is
is he declines the thirty year option and and we

(57:09):
extend them for you know, three or more years until
least thirty three.

Speaker 5 (57:13):
Ye or average annual value exactly. It makes sense, made
long for young guys. Yeah, yeah, makes some soryaball as well.
But I do, I do agree with you that that
fredident Leitz is definitely here for the long term. And
it's important to you know, we're always going to have,
or we hope that we'll we're always going to have.
The six guys are really.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Yup and their contracts are going to increase, it's important
to have some vetsuos contracts are going to decrease that
offset that as well as maintaining the culture that they
have coming in from the beginning. Good example of this
probably been you know, Kyle Lowry in Toronto for as
long as he's been there, he you know, his role

(57:52):
got to really shaped as time went on, but he was,
you know, a continuous strength of common reality within EUS
of Raptors Basketball.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
And I'll say with Fred, I think it's important to
note his raw salary is what it is for a reason.
Like last pod we talked about the blueprint in twenty
twenty three with Fred Dylan and Brooke and now Fred
Dylan and Steven Adams sort of in the same mold
a little different, but conceptually not that different as an

(58:24):
archetype relative to Brook Lopez what the Rockets wanted in
the defensive big look. Dylan and Brook slash Stephen are
at lower salaries for a reason. Those are role players.
Those are guys that are a little more plug and play,
and when they lose their use for one reason or another,
potentially young players outperforming them having more upside, then the

(58:45):
Rockets will move on. There's a reason that Fred than
Fleet is being paid at a max level. He is
at a different level in terms of how the organization
uws him relative to those other guys, and so the
reason he's getting paid more it's not just one specific
plug and play method to how he's used. There's other
elements to his value as well. There's other ways that

(59:06):
he can be used, and so because of that, it's
not as if you know, with Dylan, loved the guy.
But there is going to come a point if tari
A Men and some of these other young wing prospects
develop cam Wit or as well, there could come a
point where the Rockets say, you know what, we don't
necessarily need Dylan anymore. We need to increase minutes with Fred.
It is a little bit different. That's why he's getting

(59:27):
paid more. And so even if there was a trio
of veterans brought in and now there's a trio of
veterans in your rotation, Fred is in a little bit
of a different class and it's justified both. Number one,
based on his production, there's a reason he was an
All Star earlier this decade. Dylan then Steved Adams never
have been. But I think in terms of the blueprint,
that's where there's a big difference as well. That's the
last point I'll make, all right, So well, I like

(59:50):
one more point. I wanted to get it meant too earlier.
You thought of one thing, Paolo, you wanted to mention
and forgot. I've got one other note as well. Shingoon
at number sixteen hitting it this level, we already knew it,
but seeing him getting nearly two hundred million dollars guaranteed
that's the kind of thing that gives you so much
of a margin for error in the big picture when
it comes to building out a championship team. I know

(01:00:12):
there's a segment of this fan base that focuses on
as much luck as they passistically in the draft lotteries.
They never got a number one overall pick, they didn't
get Weimby, they didn't get Paolo Binkio, YadA, YadA, And
so the top picks the Rockets got Jalen Jabbari a
men they could work out. But there's certainly some questions, Well,
when you get all per in Shingoon level production out

(01:00:32):
of a number sixteen overall pick that they traded too
heavily protected future first that might not even convey as
first run picks to get. When you get Reed Shepherd
at number three when you were supposed to be at
number nine or ten, whatever it was going to this
year's draft lottery, that increases your margin of error so much,

(01:00:53):
so even if you are hung up on not having
that Wimby or Paolo, that one guy that you can
point to. Well, when you are out kicking your coverage
to the extent of all preension Goon and toy Essen
in the mid first route and turning what should have
been a late lottery pick, and to reach Shepherd at
number three, that increases your margin of error so much
when it comes to those guys higher in the lottery

(01:01:15):
that you want to turn out at a superstar level
but you're not quite sure if it's going to happen. Well,
when you get guys like all Parension Goon for limited assets,
you don't necessarily have to have a superstar out of
Jalen Green or jam Mororiy Smith Junior. Even a good
to very good player can't potentially be enough for you
to build a contender down the road, be it just
developing organically or setting yourself up for a trade down

(01:01:37):
the line along the lines of what you discussed a
few minutes Goo Poalow bottom line, we knew this already
with Shingoon, but seeing him get the market deal that
he got, and it comes down to the Rockets in
Shingoon negotiating the most fair deal based on market forces.
Then it confirms just how much value the Rockets got
out of a non premium asset getting him out of
the twenty twenty one draft. And ultimately that's the things

(01:01:58):
that you need to do to build a contender, or
if you aren't lucky enough to get someone like Wemby
or Powlo, that potentially makes it easy. Anyway, that's my
final point. We've gone long enough, so I will wrap
it here and if you want more content, before our
next show, which will be when we're discussing actual basketball,
which again starts this Wednesday out. I guess he's an
opener at home against Charlotte. Hope to see some of
you all our listeners out at to Yota Center Polease
say hi if you see me. But the best place

(01:02:20):
to get content before our next show is as always online.
You can follow me on Twitter or ex at Bendubo's
at Powo Alps NBA and this show at the Logger Line.
We've go to the logger Lines page. You can find
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We kind of subscribe leaf positive review at your location
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(01:02:41):
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we will wrap it for today right here for Polo,
I'm Ben, Thanks as always for listening, and please come
back soon for another new episode of the Logger Line