December 2, 2023 • 24 mins
George Howard, noted record label executive, artist representative, media advisor/investor and Berklee College of Music professor, talks with Mike Christian about music licensing, support for the arts, and Berklee’s new licensing application, RAIDAR.
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(00:00):
The following broadcast is paid for byWhat's at Risk. This is What's at
Risk with Mike Christian on WBZ,Boston's news radio. Hi Mike Christian,
here of What's at Risk. Firstup on tonight's show, we speak with
George Howard, noted record label executive, artist, representative, media advisor and
(00:23):
investor, and Berkeley College of Musicprofessor. He talks about music licensing,
support for the arts, and Berkeley'snew licensing application Radar. Our second segment
features Dinah Raymy Berry, Dean ofHumanities and Fine Arts at UC Santa Barbara,
discussing the history of enslaved people andmeaningful educational methods for our young people.
(01:02):
And you put the load right along, right on. Well, Hello
everyone, We're here with George Howard. George is a professor in Berkeley's Music
Business Management Department. He's the cofounder and CIO of ACME Innovation, a
media and entertainment investment and advising companyfocused on emerging Web three sector. He's
(01:22):
the founder of George Howard Strategic,a consulting firm that advises a wide range
of clients on how to integrate technologywith strategy. Thanks for joining us,
George it's great to have you,so great to be here. Thank you
very much. You've got a significantand varied background. Maybe you can just
tell our listeners a little bit aboutyour background and your life path to this
point. Sure, I mean it'ssignificant only just because I'm old, but
(01:45):
I've been in the music industry forover thirty years. I started in college
in the late eighties early nineties withthe record label, and you know,
I'm a guitar player, but I'vehad this kind of mission my whole life.
It makes more sense in hindsight,but it's pretty clear to me now
(02:07):
that the reason I'm on this planetis to try to help artists build sustainable
careers on their own terms. Andas I say, that started as a
putting music out for my own bandand my friends in college and having some
good fortune and good timing that ledto running a relatively storied Massachusetts label called
Reiko Disc that I didn't start buthad the pleasure of running that. It
(02:30):
was the world's first CD only labeland put out releases by David Bowie and
Frank Zapp and others right up insale in Massachusetts badly and ran that until
it was sold to Warner music group. In two thousand and four. I
then started another kind of music techcompany called Tuoncore, which is a music
distribution company still around. It's nowa public company, and I'm really proud
(02:53):
to say that it's paid out overfive billion dollars to artists over the years,
so it's made an impact along theway. I've managed artists like another
legendary Massachusetts artist, Carly Simon.I managed her for some time and others.
I do have my law degree.I've done some music publishing in that
capacity, and then, as youalluded, I now have a holding company
(03:16):
and venture fund that is using newtechnologies to try to support artists as well.
I was keeping at Berkeley, whichis a real joy and thrill.
I've been full time Berkeley since twentyeleven. Is that all Georgia or anything
else? I mean, as Isay, it's it's you know, it
sounds like I don't know what itsounds like, but it's just impressive.
(03:38):
Let me tell you, well,well, thank you very much, but
it's it's it's really just putting puttingmy shoulder into it every day, and
and and the thing I'm I'm proudof of anything. It is just managing
kind of staying in the game.You know. It's it's the music industry
is tricky and ever evolving and everchanging, and I just feel incredibly fortunate,
(04:01):
lucky whatever that I've managed somehow tokind of continue to be able to
do this thing that I love.It's it's it's a it's a lucky thing.
So let me let me just goback to Richo Disc for a second,
because I think that that was afairly innovative company, being being the
first out with CDs exclusive CDs.It's almost backwards now because no one's even
using CDs as much anymore, butat that point in time, it was
(04:23):
fairly innovative. You made some acquisitionsto grow that organization as yeah, no,
you're you're absolutely right, and you'vegot a great memory. And again
I take no credit for the initialinception of Raiko. There were people Don
Rose, Arthur Mann who had theforesight to kind of see that the market,
indeed in nineteen and eighty four eightyfive did want these new, this
(04:46):
new technology compact discs, when atthe time the major labels thought it was
it was a fat. Of course, it turned out to be a fat.
It was just like a twenty fiveyear long fat but it was it
was instructive to me. You know, I grew up kind of doing two
things as a kid, and onewas playing guitar and the other was writing
code and on like a common orsixty four in the in the early eighties.
(05:11):
And and I've never differentiated between,you know, the various mediums of
output. It's all creativity for me. And I think it's I think it's
really a shame that now there's thisweird segmentation between tech people and artistic people,
and I just don't I don't findthat to be true. And you
know, again with Tunecore, itwas the same thing where it wasn't terribly
(05:33):
revolutionary that artists needed to get theirmusic up on CD, I'm sorry,
up on streaming services at the time, it was just Apple iTunes. But
we did it from a very artistcentric way, meaning we didn't take any
royalty. So the other there wereothers before us, but they would all
take a fee and then a backend percentage of sales. And my co
(05:57):
founder and really the person who deservesall the credit for Tone Court, Jeff
Price, we just believed that thatthat was kind of it was too emblematic
of the old ways of doing business, like you should be paid for a
service, but you shouldn't be entitledto some ongoing thing when you're not doing
anything. It's it's the definition ofrent seeking. You're taking a fee for
(06:18):
something you're not adding any value.And it resonated with with the artist's population
in the same way that that Reichodiscs Ethos did too. Like I mean,
there was a reason why Frank Zappleleft his you know, sold his
catalog to Raicho, and David Bowietried these things, and there was a
reason why Trent Reznor and Chuck dand others we supported Tunecore, and so
(06:43):
I've always just been guided by tryingto be in the service of the art.
And it's it's increasingly frustrating to metoday and I've seen it come in.
It was like a slow moving,you know storm, just watching Spotify
and others of their ill build enterprisevalue on the back of artists, and
(07:05):
the artists are just left with nothing. As goes the music industry, so
it goes other industries. And ifyou look at what's happening with the with
the writer strike and the actors strike, those are all pointing to what's happening,
and it's going to happen to thewriters in the same way happened to
musicians. It's really the commentary onsociety, to be honest. I don't
(07:26):
mean to get to kind of peace, love and understanding, but or harmony
or whatever, but likely it's reallysad that we as a society are not
are not being more thoughtful about theways in which we kind of treat art
and artists. Yeah, I totallyagree. And I went on and that
little tangent there with with Richo discbecause it reminds me of the time that
(07:47):
we're at today. I interviewed onthis show, probably somebody you know at
Berkeley, Jonathan Winer. We weretalking about AI and music and back you
know, twenty five thirty years agowhen reco discs came up. That was
an innovative thing all CDs. Whenpeople talk about AI and you need to
be thoughtful about it, and Ihave a lot of thoughts on it,
(08:09):
but it's it's not going to replacemusicians. But what it will do is
it'll continue to kind of drive theprice down, particularly for licensing of music
into film, TV, etc.Where it's a challenging kind of enterprise generally.
But if you are a producer ofa TV show or movie or what
have you, and you have alimited budget and you can find music that
(08:31):
is maybe not great but sufficient andit's free or near free, you're going
to do that. And that's that'sanother blow to the artists, creator and
creators because it's it is one ofthe few ways in which you can still
make money as an artist, notjust for the licensing fees originally, but
also the ongoing fees you get foryour public performance royalties. And I see
(08:52):
this title wave coming. I'm ina place now where I can maybe do
a little bit more about it asan investor and looking for companies that are
building out you know, large languagemodels or what have you for for music
that allows for the artists to keepthe royalties in the copyright. And that's
(09:13):
that's completely doable. It's not talkedabout enough, but you know, blockchain
and AI actually go together very verywell, and so I'm obviously building in
both of those categories. Yeah,and I can only hope that AI you
know, becomes a helpful tool forthe creative process, not taking over the
creative process completely. The problem is, and this has been the historic problem
(09:35):
of the music industry. You havepeople, business people, technologist or otherwise
building businesses or tools for artists withoutartists having a say in it, and
they get it wrong and they andthey eat, whether either by design or
just kind of by circumstance, theyend up enriching themselves on the back of
the artists. And that's that's justgot to end. Or it's it's it's
(09:58):
going to all blow up. Yeah, I totally agree. It always reminds
me of that quote about the musicbusiness a cruel and shallow money tracks,
a long plastic hallway where thieves andpimps run free and good men die like
dogs. I love that quo.I love that quote too, and and
I'd love for that to have beensomething that he actually said, because I've
(10:20):
got a hundred Thompson poster on mywall in apparently it is. I never
heard that. It's always been attributedto him, so I knew that.
Well, we had a long preludeto our actual topic today, which is
music licensing, and and you know, I'll be honest, it's it's a
it's a very murky area from myperspective, and I I touch on it
(10:43):
a little bit with this radio showand the PUTT and the podcast that comes
along with it, because I liketo integrate music into, as you know,
very thematically into the show and intothe content of the show. But
it's very difficult to do that today. I can, I can find some
things, royalty free things. There'scertain things to do, but it's you
know, when I used to dothe show, I had far less restrictions.
(11:05):
However, that's on the other sideof the area that you're looking at,
which is really rewarding the artists forthe work that they've done in the
creative process that they've gone through.And so it's interesting, and I think
the licensing process with music, althoughour listeners might be a little familiar with
it, it would be great ifyou could just give them maybe a one
(11:26):
or two minute primer on where weare today with licensing. For me,
yeah, of course, So it'sit's a really byzantine thing, and I'll
try to try to make it simple. The trickiest thing that most people don't
understand is that every song has twocopyrights. And so the analogy I'll always
use is, because most people arefamiliar with it, the thong I Will
(11:48):
Always Love You. That was writtenby Dolly Parton, but it was really
made famous to most people buy WhitneyHouston on the Bodyguard soundtrack. And so
if you, for instance, wantedto use I Will Always Love You as
written by Dolly Parton but as recordedby Whitney Houston as background music to your
podcast, for instance, you wouldhave to get approval from both Dolly and
(12:13):
her publisher to use it, andaris To Records, which is the label
that released Whitney's version, and eitherone of them can say no, either
one of them can name whatever pricethey want. And so just that in
and of itself like tracking these peopledown. And then imagine, you know,
many songs today have dozens of writers. If you look at if you
(12:37):
look at the credits, which ishard to do in a kind of post
physical world, but if you lookat the credits of like a Beyonce song
or something, you'll find sometimes twelve, thirteen, fourteen or more writers.
Each one of those writers, intheory at least has the right to agree
to or deny a license. Now, typically there is a so called administer
(13:00):
publisher that will speak for them,but it's really murky and it's not like
there's this easy kind of like I'llgo just google who the publisher is and
call them up right. I mean, the analogy I always use is that
licensing music in twenty twenty three isakin to booking travel in like nineteen seventy
five. It's just who do youcall? Who are the right people,
(13:20):
how are the parts and so.And then you know, you alluded to
the fact that you use music onyour radio show and in your podcast.
The rules for that are different,right, And you can use music on
your radio show because whoever the broadcastof your radio show is paying a what's
known as a performance public performance licenseto as KAP or BMI, So that's
(13:43):
relatively easy. But the moment youthen take that song and stick it into
a podcast, it's a different setof licenses. And there isn't that kind
of blanket license. So again,you know, just me explaining that trying
to explain it simply right now showshow complex it is. And to your
point also, you said, well, you know, I can find royalty
(14:03):
free things, et cetera. Butfor the most part those are suboptimal.
They're not great, right, Andit's really it's a problem without a villain,
right, and by that I meanthe artists and the publishers actually do
want you to license their music,and they certainly don't want you to just
use it without the appropriate rights.And you want the music and the performers
(14:28):
need it for exposure. But sowhat we really have is just a marketplace
problem, right. It's just notan easy place to find it. So
when I conceived of Radar, itwas to address exactly your podcast problem,
Like you don't need our help withrespect to your radio show and music,
but for your podcast and anybody elsethat has a podcast, or anybody that's
(14:48):
making a film, or anybody that'smaking a video game or any of the
various uses of music that don't havethe so called blanket licenses, you have
to negotiate with the rights holders directly, and they're impossible to find. And
like I mentioned, I used topublish and manage Carly Simon. You know,
there's a threshold price that if it'sunder that, it's just not worth
(15:09):
my time. So if somebody comesand says, look, I want to
use you're so vain in my podcast, and I have a budget of one
hundred dollars, like I'd love todo that, but I papering that contract
costs me more than it's worth.It's not going to get Carly Simon more
promotion, So just kind of ignorethose things. But so it occurred to
(15:30):
me that with Berkeley, you havea collection of artists that are just kind
of you know, by the factthat they're at Berkeley. They're great musicians,
right, they may not be makingmusic for everybody's taste, but collectively
it's a staggering both amount of talentand output looking for a place to go.
And they're creating these works and theydesperately need exposure and revenue from them,
(15:56):
and yet there's no marketplace. SoRadar is a gesture to address that
problem, where Berkeley students and alumscan upload the works that they controlled.
In other words, they're creating theirown works. And then the goal of
it is is for people like yourselfwho have a need for music and high
quality music, to be able tofind it, license it with one click,
(16:18):
pay a reasonable amount of money forit that is fair for both someone
like yourself and for the artists,and off we go. And it's incredibly
doable because Berkeley has this massive amountof high quality music and there's this need
in the market to do it,and then we are yes leveraging new technology
(16:41):
most dominantly would call blockchain technology,and very simply, blockchain is a ledger,
a record of transactions that occur.But unlike non blockchain ledgers, it's
not owned by any one particular entity. It's it's what's known as decentralized rights.
It's hosted by lots of different serversin the same way the Internet.
(17:04):
Is. One of the reasons thatI'm motivated to work in the black chain
space is that I've recognized over thedecades that a lot of the actual creators
of music don't get the credit forit, you know, most notably,
much of popular American music was writtenby black people but then kind of appropriated
by white people and the black peopleto get the credit or the money,
(17:29):
and you know, credits really currencyin the music business. You talked and
you're very kind about. In mylong career, it's only because I've been
able to do a handful of thingsthat people are able to say, yeah,
he did that thing, maybe hecan do something else. If you
don't have that, if you're amusician and you write something but nobody knows
you did it, your opportunities godown, So having that permanent record is
really really important. And the last, but not least, blockchains allow for
(17:55):
transactions to occur without a middle person. Right So, right now, if
you're going to lie since music,there are typically any number of people between
you trying to license it and theperson that has the music that they're trying
to license, and that could beattorneys, it could be record labels,
publishers, and all those people takea percentage of the money of the transaction,
(18:15):
and oftentimes the actual creator is leftwith very little. But because of
the technology that's kind of native toblockchain, you can write rules on the
actual asset itself. So if yousay I want to use this song for
my podcast and I will pay theX number of dollars, as soon as
you do that, it self executesand you have the right to use it.
(18:37):
The artist gets paid, and there'sno one in the middle right to
take money, including Berkeley. Rightso, right now we're doing this purely
without any any type of remuneration backto Berkeley. It's just a service,
and I think it's the right service. Over time, you know, we
will find ways to allow it tokind of continue to self perpetuate, but
we build it from a grant froma blockchain product called near Foundation. And
(19:02):
you know, we're in early daysof blackchain, so there are companies and
institutions out there that want to getthe flywheel going and I'm taking advantage of
that. But that's the description ofRadom. Yeah, thank you. And
who developed the technology? George,it was your idea or you with a
collaborative team came up with the idea. And then who actually developed the technology?
Yeah? So the tech, Imean I sort of wireframed it out,
(19:26):
but then there are people far smarterthan I, both at Berkeley as
well as that the Near Foundation,that are actually kind of writing the code,
and the students had input into ithere since had tremendicin ineput. So
I wrote a book about blockchain andthe arts some years ago, and then
that has become a course at Berkeleycalled Music plus Web three and I use
(19:48):
Radar to be a teaching tool forthat class. I has to teach copyright
law, and I find radar tobe the very best way to teach copyright
because it takes something that's inherently intangibleand makes it very real. And as
Radar a functional and app now andbeing used by the students. It's in
(20:10):
very early beta, probably alpha,so it's closed off. We are currently
uploading music and finalizing some of thetechnology, but it will launch the spring
semester. And so if I asa as a podcaster, let's say,
and you're absolutely right. The broadcastingpart of this were on WBZ is the
(20:30):
easy part. They have a broadbased license and that's easy. The podcast
is work sideways in terms of theroyalties and the licensing. So will let's
just use me as an example inthe spring, can I go download them?
Only? Can you? But I'mgoing to be hitting you up and
because like that, that'll be thechallenge. Like where it's we will not
(20:51):
have challenge putting a student getting studentsput music up there. There's so much
created In order for this to work, we need people like yourself and others
to see the value in it andto utilize it. And I believe that
will happen. I think it willtake some time, but there's a real
need for this. Yeah, andI think it's so much needed right now.
(21:12):
You're in the music industry, soyou know there's so many musicians out
there. They mostly make their moneyfrom playing live, they don't. They
don't get royalties or licensing fees veryoften. But to take out the middleman
and use use an application, usetechnology in this in this way is really
meaningful to that group of musicians,which is most of the musicians. They're
(21:33):
not all the Dolly Parton's, youknow, the most very small sliver of
musicians that actually make money off theroyalties. It's harder than ever. So
it's in post COVID. As youalluded, touring is revenue generative, but
in a post COVID world it's veryvery hard. Customers habits have changed,
and then as I mentioned earlier aboutAI generated music, that's going to really
(21:57):
be a threat to the licensing revenueas well. So we have to be
constantly reinventing ourselves using technology and seenas an opportunity and really having to Artists
need to see it at the tablewhen it comes to how and what we
build things. And I think Berkeleyis just unbelievably well positioned to define things.
But I as someone that's got afew miles under my road, I've
(22:19):
seen what's happened in the past,and I can kind of have a good
sense of what's coming in the future. So I'm just trying to tune my
students into those things and lead byexample. Yeah, I agree, having
the Berkeley Impromater on it really validatesit in a really meaningful way. I
think that's not to say that therearen't really talented musicians everywhere, but Berkeley
(22:40):
has a brand. They have awonderful brand where if you know someone like
yourself, if you've got various licensingopportunities, if you see the Berkeley Impromat
are there, you're going to probablytake a chance on that more than you
would one that doesn't have the brandequity that Maple does. Right, You've
been successful in the music business.I'm guessing I know what the answer to
this question is going to be beenan ask. And anyway, do you
(23:03):
see this becoming somewhat of an industrystandard? Yes, undoubtedly, and nobody
likes hearing about it now because wejust went through this terrible kind of market
crash, But blockchain's not going away. Nmts will be called something different as
we move forward, but the digitalassets, they're not going away, right,
And so yes, it will bean industry standard. Radar, you
(23:25):
know, I'm hoping it will findits niche. If we don't create new
opportunities for revenue for musicians, it'sover right, and artists will be like
poets, something that they just doas a hobby but with no expectation of
generating any real money. And thatwould be a tragedy, right, in
a real genuine sense of tragedy.But the timing is good, especially with
(23:48):
the looming shadow of Ai upon usand threatening through it into the creative process.
I think you couldn't have better time, Kevin Aard stressing time right now.
It's certainly fertile ground for you know, having a renaissance of creativity and
supporting artists. For sure. Themusic is really an empathy machine, so
(24:08):
it's bigger than just kind of tryingto find sustainability for artists. But if
you don't do that, you certainlydon't have it. Look, I've been
tilted at windmills all my career.Every once in a while I hit one.
There you go, George, Ican't thank you enough. That was
very insightful. Really appreciate all yourcomments and it was educational too for our
listeners, So thanks so much.No, that's my pleasure. Michael,
(24:30):
bye this American Bye Droll my Chevytoy, the Levy, The Levy was
dry. Them good old boys,you're breaking whiskey and ride and singing,
this would be the day that Idie. We'll be right back after the
(24:52):
news at the bottom of the hour.
The following broadcast is paid for byWhat's at Risk. This is What's at
Risk with Mike Christian on WBZ,Boston's news radio. Hi Mike Christian,
here of What's at Risk. Firstup on tonight's show, we speak with
George Howard, noted record label executive, artist, representative, media advisor and
(00:23):
investor, and Berkeley College of Musicprofessor. He talks about music licensing,
support for the arts, and Berkeley'snew licensing application Radar. Our second segment
features Dinah Raymy Berry, Dean ofHumanities and Fine Arts at UC Santa Barbara,
discussing the history of enslaved people andmeaningful educational methods for our young people.
(01:02):
And you put the load right along, right on. Well, Hello
everyone, We're here with George Howard. George is a professor in Berkeley's Music
Business Management Department. He's the cofounder and CIO of ACME Innovation, a
media and entertainment investment and advising companyfocused on emerging Web three sector. He's
(01:22):
the founder of George Howard Strategic,a consulting firm that advises a wide range
of clients on how to integrate technologywith strategy. Thanks for joining us,
George it's great to have you,so great to be here. Thank you
very much. You've got a significantand varied background. Maybe you can just
tell our listeners a little bit aboutyour background and your life path to this
point. Sure, I mean it'ssignificant only just because I'm old, but
(01:45):
I've been in the music industry forover thirty years. I started in college
in the late eighties early nineties withthe record label, and you know,
I'm a guitar player, but I'vehad this kind of mission my whole life.
It makes more sense in hindsight,but it's pretty clear to me now
(02:07):
that the reason I'm on this planetis to try to help artists build sustainable
careers on their own terms. Andas I say, that started as a
putting music out for my own bandand my friends in college and having some
good fortune and good timing that ledto running a relatively storied Massachusetts label called
Reiko Disc that I didn't start buthad the pleasure of running that. It
(02:30):
was the world's first CD only labeland put out releases by David Bowie and
Frank Zapp and others right up insale in Massachusetts badly and ran that until
it was sold to Warner music group. In two thousand and four. I
then started another kind of music techcompany called Tuoncore, which is a music
distribution company still around. It's nowa public company, and I'm really proud
(02:53):
to say that it's paid out overfive billion dollars to artists over the years,
so it's made an impact along theway. I've managed artists like another
legendary Massachusetts artist, Carly Simon.I managed her for some time and others.
I do have my law degree.I've done some music publishing in that
capacity, and then, as youalluded, I now have a holding company
(03:16):
and venture fund that is using newtechnologies to try to support artists as well.
I was keeping at Berkeley, whichis a real joy and thrill.
I've been full time Berkeley since twentyeleven. Is that all Georgia or anything
else? I mean, as Isay, it's it's you know, it
sounds like I don't know what itsounds like, but it's just impressive.
(03:38):
Let me tell you, well,well, thank you very much, but
it's it's it's really just putting puttingmy shoulder into it every day, and
and and the thing I'm I'm proudof of anything. It is just managing
kind of staying in the game.You know. It's it's the music industry
is tricky and ever evolving and everchanging, and I just feel incredibly fortunate,
(04:01):
lucky whatever that I've managed somehow tokind of continue to be able to
do this thing that I love.It's it's it's a it's a lucky thing.
So let me let me just goback to Richo Disc for a second,
because I think that that was afairly innovative company, being being the
first out with CDs exclusive CDs.It's almost backwards now because no one's even
using CDs as much anymore, butat that point in time, it was
(04:23):
fairly innovative. You made some acquisitionsto grow that organization as yeah, no,
you're you're absolutely right, and you'vegot a great memory. And again
I take no credit for the initialinception of Raiko. There were people Don
Rose, Arthur Mann who had theforesight to kind of see that the market,
indeed in nineteen and eighty four eightyfive did want these new, this
(04:46):
new technology compact discs, when atthe time the major labels thought it was
it was a fat. Of course, it turned out to be a fat.
It was just like a twenty fiveyear long fat but it was it
was instructive to me. You know, I grew up kind of doing two
things as a kid, and onewas playing guitar and the other was writing
code and on like a common orsixty four in the in the early eighties.
(05:11):
And and I've never differentiated between,you know, the various mediums of
output. It's all creativity for me. And I think it's I think it's
really a shame that now there's thisweird segmentation between tech people and artistic people,
and I just don't I don't findthat to be true. And you
know, again with Tunecore, itwas the same thing where it wasn't terribly
(05:33):
revolutionary that artists needed to get theirmusic up on CD, I'm sorry,
up on streaming services at the time, it was just Apple iTunes. But
we did it from a very artistcentric way, meaning we didn't take any
royalty. So the other there wereothers before us, but they would all
take a fee and then a backend percentage of sales. And my co
(05:57):
founder and really the person who deservesall the credit for Tone Court, Jeff
Price, we just believed that thatthat was kind of it was too emblematic
of the old ways of doing business, like you should be paid for a
service, but you shouldn't be entitledto some ongoing thing when you're not doing
anything. It's it's the definition ofrent seeking. You're taking a fee for
(06:18):
something you're not adding any value.And it resonated with with the artist's population
in the same way that that Reichodiscs Ethos did too. Like I mean,
there was a reason why Frank Zappleleft his you know, sold his
catalog to Raicho, and David Bowietried these things, and there was a
reason why Trent Reznor and Chuck dand others we supported Tunecore, and so
(06:43):
I've always just been guided by tryingto be in the service of the art.
And it's it's increasingly frustrating to metoday and I've seen it come in.
It was like a slow moving,you know storm, just watching Spotify
and others of their ill build enterprisevalue on the back of artists, and
(07:05):
the artists are just left with nothing. As goes the music industry, so
it goes other industries. And ifyou look at what's happening with the with
the writer strike and the actors strike, those are all pointing to what's happening,
and it's going to happen to thewriters in the same way happened to
musicians. It's really the commentary onsociety, to be honest. I don't
(07:26):
mean to get to kind of peace, love and understanding, but or harmony
or whatever, but likely it's reallysad that we as a society are not
are not being more thoughtful about theways in which we kind of treat art
and artists. Yeah, I totallyagree. And I went on and that
little tangent there with with Richo discbecause it reminds me of the time that
(07:47):
we're at today. I interviewed onthis show, probably somebody you know at
Berkeley, Jonathan Winer. We weretalking about AI and music and back you
know, twenty five thirty years agowhen reco discs came up. That was
an innovative thing all CDs. Whenpeople talk about AI and you need to
be thoughtful about it, and Ihave a lot of thoughts on it,
(08:09):
but it's it's not going to replacemusicians. But what it will do is
it'll continue to kind of drive theprice down, particularly for licensing of music
into film, TV, etc.Where it's a challenging kind of enterprise generally.
But if you are a producer ofa TV show or movie or what
have you, and you have alimited budget and you can find music that
(08:31):
is maybe not great but sufficient andit's free or near free, you're going
to do that. And that's that'sanother blow to the artists, creator and
creators because it's it is one ofthe few ways in which you can still
make money as an artist, notjust for the licensing fees originally, but
also the ongoing fees you get foryour public performance royalties. And I see
(08:52):
this title wave coming. I'm ina place now where I can maybe do
a little bit more about it asan investor and looking for companies that are
building out you know, large languagemodels or what have you for for music
that allows for the artists to keepthe royalties in the copyright. And that's
(09:13):
that's completely doable. It's not talkedabout enough, but you know, blockchain
and AI actually go together very verywell, and so I'm obviously building in
both of those categories. Yeah,and I can only hope that AI you
know, becomes a helpful tool forthe creative process, not taking over the
creative process completely. The problem is, and this has been the historic problem
(09:35):
of the music industry. You havepeople, business people, technologist or otherwise
building businesses or tools for artists withoutartists having a say in it, and
they get it wrong and they andthey eat, whether either by design or
just kind of by circumstance, theyend up enriching themselves on the back of
the artists. And that's that's justgot to end. Or it's it's it's
(09:58):
going to all blow up. Yeah, I totally agree. It always reminds
me of that quote about the musicbusiness a cruel and shallow money tracks,
a long plastic hallway where thieves andpimps run free and good men die like
dogs. I love that quo.I love that quote too, and and
I'd love for that to have beensomething that he actually said, because I've
(10:20):
got a hundred Thompson poster on mywall in apparently it is. I never
heard that. It's always been attributedto him, so I knew that.
Well, we had a long preludeto our actual topic today, which is
music licensing, and and you know, I'll be honest, it's it's a
it's a very murky area from myperspective, and I I touch on it
(10:43):
a little bit with this radio showand the PUTT and the podcast that comes
along with it, because I liketo integrate music into, as you know,
very thematically into the show and intothe content of the show. But
it's very difficult to do that today. I can, I can find some
things, royalty free things. There'scertain things to do, but it's you
know, when I used to dothe show, I had far less restrictions.
(11:05):
However, that's on the other sideof the area that you're looking at,
which is really rewarding the artists forthe work that they've done in the
creative process that they've gone through.And so it's interesting, and I think
the licensing process with music, althoughour listeners might be a little familiar with
it, it would be great ifyou could just give them maybe a one
(11:26):
or two minute primer on where weare today with licensing. For me,
yeah, of course, So it'sit's a really byzantine thing, and I'll
try to try to make it simple. The trickiest thing that most people don't
understand is that every song has twocopyrights. And so the analogy I'll always
use is, because most people arefamiliar with it, the thong I Will
(11:48):
Always Love You. That was writtenby Dolly Parton, but it was really
made famous to most people buy WhitneyHouston on the Bodyguard soundtrack. And so
if you, for instance, wantedto use I Will Always Love You as
written by Dolly Parton but as recordedby Whitney Houston as background music to your
podcast, for instance, you wouldhave to get approval from both Dolly and
(12:13):
her publisher to use it, andaris To Records, which is the label
that released Whitney's version, and eitherone of them can say no, either
one of them can name whatever pricethey want. And so just that in
and of itself like tracking these peopledown. And then imagine, you know,
many songs today have dozens of writers. If you look at if you
(12:37):
look at the credits, which ishard to do in a kind of post
physical world, but if you lookat the credits of like a Beyonce song
or something, you'll find sometimes twelve, thirteen, fourteen or more writers.
Each one of those writers, intheory at least has the right to agree
to or deny a license. Now, typically there is a so called administer
(13:00):
publisher that will speak for them,but it's really murky and it's not like
there's this easy kind of like I'llgo just google who the publisher is and
call them up right. I mean, the analogy I always use is that
licensing music in twenty twenty three isakin to booking travel in like nineteen seventy
five. It's just who do youcall? Who are the right people,
(13:20):
how are the parts and so.And then you know, you alluded to
the fact that you use music onyour radio show and in your podcast.
The rules for that are different,right, And you can use music on
your radio show because whoever the broadcastof your radio show is paying a what's
known as a performance public performance licenseto as KAP or BMI, So that's
(13:43):
relatively easy. But the moment youthen take that song and stick it into
a podcast, it's a different setof licenses. And there isn't that kind
of blanket license. So again,you know, just me explaining that trying
to explain it simply right now showshow complex it is. And to your
point also, you said, well, you know, I can find royalty
(14:03):
free things, et cetera. Butfor the most part those are suboptimal.
They're not great, right, Andit's really it's a problem without a villain,
right, and by that I meanthe artists and the publishers actually do
want you to license their music,and they certainly don't want you to just
use it without the appropriate rights.And you want the music and the performers
(14:28):
need it for exposure. But sowhat we really have is just a marketplace
problem, right. It's just notan easy place to find it. So
when I conceived of Radar, itwas to address exactly your podcast problem,
Like you don't need our help withrespect to your radio show and music,
but for your podcast and anybody elsethat has a podcast, or anybody that's
(14:48):
making a film, or anybody that'smaking a video game or any of the
various uses of music that don't havethe so called blanket licenses, you have
to negotiate with the rights holders directly, and they're impossible to find. And
like I mentioned, I used topublish and manage Carly Simon. You know,
there's a threshold price that if it'sunder that, it's just not worth
(15:09):
my time. So if somebody comesand says, look, I want to
use you're so vain in my podcast, and I have a budget of one
hundred dollars, like I'd love todo that, but I papering that contract
costs me more than it's worth.It's not going to get Carly Simon more
promotion, So just kind of ignorethose things. But so it occurred to
(15:30):
me that with Berkeley, you havea collection of artists that are just kind
of you know, by the factthat they're at Berkeley. They're great musicians,
right, they may not be makingmusic for everybody's taste, but collectively
it's a staggering both amount of talentand output looking for a place to go.
And they're creating these works and theydesperately need exposure and revenue from them,
(15:56):
and yet there's no marketplace. SoRadar is a gesture to address that
problem, where Berkeley students and alumscan upload the works that they controlled.
In other words, they're creating theirown works. And then the goal of
it is is for people like yourselfwho have a need for music and high
quality music, to be able tofind it, license it with one click,
(16:18):
pay a reasonable amount of money forit that is fair for both someone
like yourself and for the artists,and off we go. And it's incredibly
doable because Berkeley has this massive amountof high quality music and there's this need
in the market to do it,and then we are yes leveraging new technology
(16:41):
most dominantly would call blockchain technology,and very simply, blockchain is a ledger,
a record of transactions that occur.But unlike non blockchain ledgers, it's
not owned by any one particular entity. It's it's what's known as decentralized rights.
It's hosted by lots of different serversin the same way the Internet.
(17:04):
Is. One of the reasons thatI'm motivated to work in the black chain
space is that I've recognized over thedecades that a lot of the actual creators
of music don't get the credit forit, you know, most notably,
much of popular American music was writtenby black people but then kind of appropriated
by white people and the black peopleto get the credit or the money,
(17:29):
and you know, credits really currencyin the music business. You talked and
you're very kind about. In mylong career, it's only because I've been
able to do a handful of thingsthat people are able to say, yeah,
he did that thing, maybe hecan do something else. If you
don't have that, if you're amusician and you write something but nobody knows
you did it, your opportunities godown, So having that permanent record is
really really important. And the last, but not least, blockchains allow for
(17:55):
transactions to occur without a middle person. Right So, right now, if
you're going to lie since music,there are typically any number of people between
you trying to license it and theperson that has the music that they're trying
to license, and that could beattorneys, it could be record labels,
publishers, and all those people takea percentage of the money of the transaction,
(18:15):
and oftentimes the actual creator is leftwith very little. But because of
the technology that's kind of native toblockchain, you can write rules on the
actual asset itself. So if yousay I want to use this song for
my podcast and I will pay theX number of dollars, as soon as
you do that, it self executesand you have the right to use it.
(18:37):
The artist gets paid, and there'sno one in the middle right to
take money, including Berkeley. Rightso, right now we're doing this purely
without any any type of remuneration backto Berkeley. It's just a service,
and I think it's the right service. Over time, you know, we
will find ways to allow it tokind of continue to self perpetuate, but
we build it from a grant froma blockchain product called near Foundation. And
(19:02):
you know, we're in early daysof blackchain, so there are companies and
institutions out there that want to getthe flywheel going and I'm taking advantage of
that. But that's the description ofRadom. Yeah, thank you. And
who developed the technology? George,it was your idea or you with a
collaborative team came up with the idea. And then who actually developed the technology?
Yeah? So the tech, Imean I sort of wireframed it out,
(19:26):
but then there are people far smarterthan I, both at Berkeley as
well as that the Near Foundation,that are actually kind of writing the code,
and the students had input into ithere since had tremendicin ineput. So
I wrote a book about blockchain andthe arts some years ago, and then
that has become a course at Berkeleycalled Music plus Web three and I use
(19:48):
Radar to be a teaching tool forthat class. I has to teach copyright
law, and I find radar tobe the very best way to teach copyright
because it takes something that's inherently intangibleand makes it very real. And as
Radar a functional and app now andbeing used by the students. It's in
(20:10):
very early beta, probably alpha,so it's closed off. We are currently
uploading music and finalizing some of thetechnology, but it will launch the spring
semester. And so if I asa as a podcaster, let's say,
and you're absolutely right. The broadcastingpart of this were on WBZ is the
(20:30):
easy part. They have a broadbased license and that's easy. The podcast
is work sideways in terms of theroyalties and the licensing. So will let's
just use me as an example inthe spring, can I go download them?
Only? Can you? But I'mgoing to be hitting you up and
because like that, that'll be thechallenge. Like where it's we will not
(20:51):
have challenge putting a student getting studentsput music up there. There's so much
created In order for this to work, we need people like yourself and others
to see the value in it andto utilize it. And I believe that
will happen. I think it willtake some time, but there's a real
need for this. Yeah, andI think it's so much needed right now.
(21:12):
You're in the music industry, soyou know there's so many musicians out
there. They mostly make their moneyfrom playing live, they don't. They
don't get royalties or licensing fees veryoften. But to take out the middleman
and use use an application, usetechnology in this in this way is really
meaningful to that group of musicians,which is most of the musicians. They're
(21:33):
not all the Dolly Parton's, youknow, the most very small sliver of
musicians that actually make money off theroyalties. It's harder than ever. So
it's in post COVID. As youalluded, touring is revenue generative, but
in a post COVID world it's veryvery hard. Customers habits have changed,
and then as I mentioned earlier aboutAI generated music, that's going to really
(21:57):
be a threat to the licensing revenueas well. So we have to be
constantly reinventing ourselves using technology and seenas an opportunity and really having to Artists
need to see it at the tablewhen it comes to how and what we
build things. And I think Berkeleyis just unbelievably well positioned to define things.
But I as someone that's got afew miles under my road, I've
(22:19):
seen what's happened in the past,and I can kind of have a good
sense of what's coming in the future. So I'm just trying to tune my
students into those things and lead byexample. Yeah, I agree, having
the Berkeley Impromater on it really validatesit in a really meaningful way. I
think that's not to say that therearen't really talented musicians everywhere, but Berkeley
(22:40):
has a brand. They have awonderful brand where if you know someone like
yourself, if you've got various licensingopportunities, if you see the Berkeley Impromat
are there, you're going to probablytake a chance on that more than you
would one that doesn't have the brandequity that Maple does. Right, You've
been successful in the music business.I'm guessing I know what the answer to
this question is going to be beenan ask. And anyway, do you
(23:03):
see this becoming somewhat of an industrystandard? Yes, undoubtedly, and nobody
likes hearing about it now because wejust went through this terrible kind of market
crash, But blockchain's not going away. Nmts will be called something different as
we move forward, but the digitalassets, they're not going away, right,
And so yes, it will bean industry standard. Radar, you
(23:25):
know, I'm hoping it will findits niche. If we don't create new
opportunities for revenue for musicians, it'sover right, and artists will be like
poets, something that they just doas a hobby but with no expectation of
generating any real money. And thatwould be a tragedy, right, in
a real genuine sense of tragedy.But the timing is good, especially with
(23:48):
the looming shadow of Ai upon usand threatening through it into the creative process.
I think you couldn't have better time, Kevin Aard stressing time right now.
It's certainly fertile ground for you know, having a renaissance of creativity and
supporting artists. For sure. Themusic is really an empathy machine, so
(24:08):
it's bigger than just kind of tryingto find sustainability for artists. But if
you don't do that, you certainlydon't have it. Look, I've been
tilted at windmills all my career.Every once in a while I hit one.
There you go, George, Ican't thank you enough. That was
very insightful. Really appreciate all yourcomments and it was educational too for our
listeners, So thanks so much.No, that's my pleasure. Michael,
(24:30):
bye this American Bye Droll my Chevytoy, the Levy, The Levy was
dry. Them good old boys,you're breaking whiskey and ride and singing,
this would be the day that Idie. We'll be right back after the
(24:52):
news at the bottom of the hour.
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