April 23, 2020 • 39 mins
In this season finale episode, host Jamie Loftus speaks with stars Reese Witherspoon and Kerry Washington about all things LFE - from their journeys becoming Elena and Mia in Shaker Heights to their roles as executive producers on the amazing, nearly all-female LFE production team. Also, interviews with Rosemarie DeWitt (Linda), Celeste Ng (author of Little Fires Everywhere), and Liz Tigelaar (showrunner, head writer, executive producer), on their reminiscences, reactions, and takeaways from this remarkable show.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, Little Fires Everywhere Heads, LFE heads, Shaker Rights. Did
we ever decided on a fan base name? Anyways? Welcome
back to the final episode of Little Fires Everywhere, the
official podcast. I'm your host, Jamie Loftus, and we have
a banger of a podcast finale for you today, Because
if you're listening to this right after watching this series
(00:37):
finale of Little Fires Everywhere, oh my word. I mean
there's no way to cover it in a spoiler free way,
but I was completely blown away by the final episode.
Just really intense performances, incredible twist and turn writing, beautiful direction,
just chefs kiss, amazing stuff, which is why for our
episode today, we wanted to do what we all lease do.
(01:00):
I know what happened behind the scenes from the people
who made the show what it is, and today you
are in for an absolute treat only hitters for guests.
We have the author of Little Fires Everywhere and producer
of the show, so lest In. We have the Little
Fires Everywhere showrunner, head writer and executive producer Liz Tiglar,
(01:20):
and we have the stars of the show. We're talking
Carrie Washington, Race Witherspoon, and Rosemary DeWitt. I know it's
a lot of good stuff. And keep in mind we
were originally going to have a big to do and
a whole live event, but that was during the before times,
and so for this interview, we are all on Zoom
in full quarantine. So what follows is my interview with Carrie,
(01:45):
Reese and Liz. And if you did not know, Carrie
and Race are more than just the incredible leads of
Little Fires Everywhere as Mia and Lena, they're also executive
producers on the show, so their fingerprints and influence have
been on this project since day one. We talked about
the finale, building out the world of their characters working
together for the first time and more so, let's take
(02:07):
a listen. Welcome Liz Tickler, Carrie Washington, and Reese Witherspoon.
All of our viewers and then listeners of the podcast
have seen the finale, and I'm very interested to hear
from all three of you. Is there any viewer reaction
(02:29):
that is like particularly like surprised you or touched you?
I mean, even throughout all of the episodes, Aring Reese,
what do you think? I mean, I think everything is
so incredibly thoughtful and even people's strong any kind of
strong reaction. Do you have anything even people hating Elena?
It makes me so out of the work that we did.
(02:53):
And we worked really hard to make sure the assumptions
that you had about any character would be dismantled by
something two or three episodes later, So it really challenged
your assumptions all the time, and that we really listed
such a beautiful job plotting that and being the architect
(03:15):
of you know, pulling people in and then pushing them away,
and um, it's just a it's a beautiful sort of
emotional jungle gym that people are going on. And I
haven't gotten to see people's reactions to the finale. Yeah,
but I'm so excited. Yeah, the ending of the series
is slightly different from the ending of the book, and Louse,
(03:39):
could you walk me through that decision making process. One
thing was clear, which was there's this very humorous thing
that happens at the beginning of the book, which is
this iconic houses on fire, the little fires everywhere, fires everywhere,
and you know in the beginning kind of on the
first page that is he's the one who did it.
So for a series, you know, it kind of begs
(03:59):
the question, like if you didn't know Izzy was the
one who did it, but even if all things point
to Izzy, or the assumption is that it's Izzy, is
there an overarching mystery to not knowing that answer that
could be propulsive and compelling. Um. Then it became this
great challenge to think, well, obviously we know it could
(04:21):
be easy, but if it wasn't Izzy, who could it be?
And I think we went on a real journey with
that challenge, which at first, you know, thinking what would
be who would be the most dramatic character that you
would not expect to burn the house down that would
have to go the furthest and have the furthest. Arc
obviously felt like Elena, and that was what we kind
of talked about at first. But I think all of us,
(04:42):
the Carrie, reaese Um, Lauren and Player are producing partners
and myself we talked about this idea of like is
that real? Is that just too far for for this
woman to go? Would any adult do this? There's obviously
something about it that so you can really buy a
teenager doing it much more than you can then a
her own person would need to do that. And then
(05:02):
as we you know, went on our journey with it,
I remember thinking like, who could it be be Lexie,
would it be Trip, would it be Moody? And it
didn't seem like it would be any one of them.
But then this idea kind of struck me of well,
could it be all three? And what would it mean
if it were all three? And could we take the
spirit of the book, which is Easy wanting to start
(05:23):
a fire, and could it kind of take on a
life of its own, so that Easy starts it and
the kids finish what she started and they have their
own reasons from their own arcs for like lighting these matches.
For Carrie and Reest, I guess I'm interested in your
reactions to where your characters land and where they might
(05:43):
go from here. Carrie, I feel really grateful that both
Mia and Elena that they there, They had to have
their illusion of control ripped from them, that they both there.
There were real costs two in the secrets that they kept,
in the ways that they were living their lives trying
(06:04):
to control the world around them by controlling their children,
that they both really had to they were forced to
let go of that, and I think that was so
beautifully designed by Celeste in the book and then really
just dimensionalized and and glorified by Liz is just really
(06:27):
so beautifully painted. Absolutely at the end of the show,
there's definitely a sense of hope that isn't necessarily in
the book. Boy, I just when I read the book,
I bawled my eyes. You can't treat your children that way.
And I think, you know this idea. I think we
(06:48):
all kind of longed for our mother to understand us,
our mother or whoever the parent is that raised you.
You just you want that that unconditional acceptance. And Izzy
doesn't get it. There's a lemmer of hope that Elena
holds the feather and says Izzy instead of Isabelle. It's
a big moment that Liz built in that It's like
you're always longing for your parents to truly understand you,
(07:12):
and and not just to understand you, but accept you.
And it comes. You know, that's a for many many
people in this world never happens. Yeah. I also I
like this idea of na Um. You know that car,
like taking that car from place to place, that car
was her everything and literally driving that car was how
(07:35):
she controlled Pearl's worldview. Um And to say to Pearl,
like you get to decide where the car goes next
Um and to be led two back to her home,
even though she assumed that Pearl would want to find
her dad, but she lets Pearl lead her somewhere equally
(07:58):
uncomfortable and lets herself get out of the car to
follow Pearl back into her her place of origin. Is really,
I think, also hopeful. I really like the adjustments made
from book Mia to show Mia, and I'm curious as
to where some of those came about where, um, part
(08:18):
of it's just flashing out her history more. But we
you know, in the book she doesn't have a sex
life really of any kind, and that was changed for
the series. And so where where did that idea begin?
A lot of that came from the writer's room and
this you know, Liz and this phenomenal room full of
just dynamic, intelligent, raw, courageous writers, and they decided early
(08:44):
on that there was, you know, this sort of um
image throughout history and literature of black women being a
sexual and so they wanted to make sure that Mia
that there was so missed read around her sexuality in
her sex life, but that it was embodied more so,
(09:05):
A lot of those traces really came from the writer's room.
And their desire to have me to be fully realized
on on your end, when you're kind of plugging into
this character and preparing, where were you able to meet
and understand her to build up the performance? You know,
I just had an experience of her when I read
(09:27):
her in the novel, and so I just felt like
I was constantly climbing toward that, like there was kind
of a soul of an understanding of her that existed
outside of me that as I read the book, I
saw her, I could smell her, I could hear her,
and I was just constantly trying to work in my
(09:51):
process to get close to that thing. Um that was
that that I felt was this combination of what I
read on the page and who why was the alchemy
of that created this other thing outside me that I
was just aiming for all the time, down to even
like taking photos and and like embodying her art life too,
(10:12):
which is so amazing. Yeah. I got to take photography
classes and learned to be a photographer because I feel
like there were things I would discover about Mia even
just from that learning process. And there were you know,
like even the way that she engages with people that
that her chosen art form, you know, like Greece and I,
(10:32):
our chosen art form is to like take on somebody
else's entire emotional and psychological being and like surrender ourselves
to live in somebody else's shoes and brain. And and
MIA's chosen form of art work was really about like
being on the outside, observing, capturing, manipulating, not giving herself
(10:56):
fully over, but trying to transform how you see a
supposed to transforming how you know how I see. So
just things like that that could help me understand how
she thinks. For reasons, I'm interested in how you were
able to find a connection and build out a lot
of depth in Bolina as well, where when we meet
her she's kind of this quintessential upper crust white housewife,
(11:19):
and then as the lawyers are are more exposed, she
has this very rich in her life. What what drew
you to her? And how did you build out that character?
I always look at characters that we see, you know,
you can read it very one dimensionally and and really
see her as this very rigid person from a place
(11:41):
at a time. But I always think of characters when
I meet people who are so rigid in their ideology
I'm always fascinated with digging deeper. Where does that? Where
did that come from? Where? What is that? Where did
that ideology come from? There's something sort of interesting about
that to me too. This in sense of entitlement, sense
(12:03):
of protecting a bubble that she grew up in and
that her children will grow up in. It's inevitable that
the world comes in and what happens to someone who
has that force field almost like a impenetrable idea of
what is right and what is good. And it's all
(12:24):
in the book. I mean, it's beautifully said in the book. Um,
you know that she believes that people who behave the
way that Mia does create chaos and they can burn
the whole world to the ground. Um, and then you
see obviously something else happens. But um, it's sort of
(12:45):
it was fascinating. I have deep tender thoughts about her,
as you have to in order to get inside these things.
Is as Gary said, you have to have you have
to have compassion and curiosity. And I I will say
to you know, for people who you don't think of hers,
they kind of love to hate her, which I totally
(13:05):
get that too. There there elements of it of deep
loss and sadness of her own identity. She was never
allowed to explore her identity. Yeah, and I mean, I
think it is kind of incredible over the course of
the series to not just see so distinctly who Elena
(13:26):
and who me are, but that they end up on
the opposite ends of the conflict of the adoption storyline
and of mailing. And you, you know, no matter who
you agree with, you fully understand where they're coming from
and why they're coming from that place, and that storyline,
(13:46):
I mean, for just me as a viewer was one
of the most fascinating and challenging that that I've seen
in TV in a long time. And so as speaking
as executive producers as well and as mothers. How how
was navigating that story reliant for everybody over the course
of production. Well, I mean, I don't know about y'all,
but I've had the best conversations about it with people.
(14:08):
I think it was always meant to illicit conversation, and
I think there isn't a right or wrong or how
we feel like I don't know, I would vastly wildly
between who that baby would thrive with, you know, And
I think people said to me yeah, what did the
parents do wrong? I mean, what does that woman want
the baby back? And and then you go, okay, well,
(14:29):
but isn't her biology it's her biological child. What would
And it's a very fantastic conversation. Yeah. There was one
day once that it was very I think it was
her first day she was working little Baby Molly, and
the call she had said m Mirabelle. And I saw
I heard some folks on set reacting um, and so
(14:53):
I went to our amazingly sensitive, phenomenal line producer, Mary Howard,
who I worked with on Scandal for seven seasons, um,
and I said, I think we need to change it,
I think, And we started labeling it as baby m
on the call sheet because like whether to put may
Ling or marabel on the call sheet was a big deal. Yeah,
(15:15):
it's didn't know that that's amazing. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah,
because people, even just in the hair and makeup trailer,
people were like, why is it? Why is it Mirrabelle?
And I was like, oh, well, let me go see
what I can do about that. That story like cuts
to the quick of what you believe, like like people
(15:36):
hear that story or see that story and you have
an immediate gut instinct based on not necessarily things as
negative as prejudices or even as um obvious as biases,
but just um, just based on your own life and circumstances,
you will have a gut reaction to that story. I
(15:58):
am an adopted kid. When I opened up that book
and started reading, I was like, the mccullas are the parents.
There's no way you can't have a little bit. You
can't have been with their parents for ten months and
then be ripped away. But of course what you do
then as and that's how I came into the room.
Other writers came in in the complete opposite way. And
I will say, by the time we got done with
(16:19):
the story, not that our paths had crisscrossed in that
we were saying the polar opposite thing, but I could
no longer say that that was the mcculla's baby, because
once you understand the circumstances in which BB gave had
to give up her child, you can't say she should
(16:43):
be penalized for circumstances that are beyond her control. Now
that the whole series has aired, what do you hope
that viewers take away from having watched Little Fires everywhere.
I had to train for this movie once where I
was with in C Double, a multiple time champions softball
(17:03):
coach from U C. L A. I mean, I learned
so much from this woman, y'all in four months. It
was like she was like another mother to me in
certain ways. She said something so profound to me. She said,
what parents don't realize is that their children's minds aren't
aren't a dry race board, Like you don't get to
say something and then take it away. You write on
(17:25):
your child's mind with a sharpie. And it was so
profound when she said it to me. I had a
little a seven year old, a three year old, and
she said, be so careful with what you tell them
about who they are, who you are, what is possible.
(17:46):
And I've always taken that to heart. And I think
that's that That's one thing. There's so many things in
this show, but I do think be you know that
that is a cautionary tale. Be be thoughtful of the
things that you say to your children, because they they
take them in. It becomes it's very real for them.
A phrase that I love is don't compare your insides
(18:10):
to other people's outsides. This idea that you know, you
just don't know what's going on for other people. And
I love that, particularly in episode six, you really learned
that Mia and Elena are much more similar than anyone
They were like each other there in their younger lives.
(18:31):
I think it's so important for us, particularly now, to
have this understanding that there's more going on for people
than we could have imagined, and that that could be
a reason for us to be more patient with each
other and accepting of one another rather than more kind
of fearful and judgmental of one another. Absolutely, I think
(18:56):
there's this idea that like, look, these two women were
so immeler um, I mean, so different in so many
ways but similar, and that they fiercely wanted to do right.
They didn't see what they were doing that was so destructive.
But the point is you teach your children what you know,
and you hope that your children are going to take
(19:17):
that and be even better than you were. And I
think what's so beautiful about the and and then by
that you are raising them to be better even with
the good and the bad. And what I think so
beautiful about this story is the end result is these
two women raised these brave kids to not only transform
their lives, but to go back and to transform the
(19:39):
lives of their own mothers, to give them hope and
give them what they're longing for, which is certain kinds
of freedom and choice. And that's beautiful. I just hope
that this is a conversation for people you know and
and and that they if you identify as one character,
that you're seeing the reality of a different character. And
(20:02):
I think that's the real beauty of this show. I
think it is really eye opening too, you know, as
we become even more switched into our little bubbles. Remember
there's there's others. There's so many different people out there
doing the best they can with what they've got where
they are. Well. Thank all three of you so much
(20:24):
for joining us, and congratulations on such a beautiful show.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Handsome She.
Thank you again to legends Carrie Washington, Greese Weatherspoon, and
Liz tag Alre. I now know what it feels like
(20:45):
to be star struck over Zoom. And for the record, yes,
of course I did uh fully dress up because I'm
a professional, but yes, total honor. And I can't wait
to see how recent carry collaborate next question mark, but
white listeners, there is more more In addition to reason carry,
Liz take a Laura Night got to speak with Rosemary
de Witt, who plays Linda may Link's adoptive mother in
(21:07):
the Little Fires Everywhere series, and she made some time
out of her busy Quarantine schedule to catch up with
us after the finale of the show aired on Hulu.
Rosemary de Witt is a veteran actress and an adoptive
mother herself in real life, so she has some truly
amazing insight into Linda's storyline and character, and so I
was very thrilled to speak to her about that, the
(21:28):
finale of the show and more. Let's listen to our conversation, Rosemary, Liz, Hello,
thank you for joining us in in Quarantine. So, Rosemary,
what was your reaction to the finale of of the
story and particularly where where Linda ends. I appreciated that. Uh.
(21:53):
For me, it was surprising the ending and it was complicated,
and especially as far as a storyline that I was
involved in. Maitlan has two mothers and you know that's
there that's left standing at the end of the show.
Going back to when you first read the book, what
drew you to this part and to this project I
(22:16):
was really also for me, I think I was drawn
into Linda's journey with her sort of pregnancy and child
loss because I think that often gets swept under the rug,
you know, and it it often defines a mother not
only how she builds her family often but how she
then parents. So that's really what pulled me in to it,
(22:37):
Like that's what was so heartbreaking to me was when
she had to give birth to a stillborn baby and
then you know, and she definitely it's what drives the
fight of just not being able to endure that loss again.
Were there any storylines, whether it was yours or others,
that were particularly challenging. We have like all these different
stories of actors and crew members going in with one
(23:00):
opinion on an issue and then coming out with like,
oh god, I don't know. And I was so moved
by the young performers on our show, like they're all
so talented. And for me, when I watched the show,
I thought the breakup scene with Elena's eldest daughter and
her boyfriend, like that just broke my heart, you know,
like you realize like a lot of people's hearts are
(23:21):
in the right places, and the executions terrible or they
were taught you know, maybe values that were suspect or
you know, or they're just all working through and and
just in general, the kids, you know, the children and
the story just are really struggling to have their own identity.
Liz and I can speak a little bit to just
the kind of the Linda in the book, and then
(23:43):
how Rose came in and like I think even elevated
and deepened and made her even more nuanced. I think
the Linda in the book, like her blind spots were glaring.
Do not I did not like Book Linda at all.
I don't think you root for Book Linda. When Rose
(24:04):
came in, I mean, she is so winning and root
for able anyway, but I felt like she brought this
this humanity to this character and a care to this character.
This was one of those where I never saw a
writer work harder on a script in my life, Like
the script was never finished in anything that popped up
(24:27):
in the courtroom or any discovery, or if Carrie improvised
a line or set a line in a certain way,
and that could change the whole like where it landed,
and then we could go over and whisper by the
monitor and then say, I think Linda has to have
a retort to that when she takes the stand. And
so it was always very much in a live vital
(24:48):
um process, and I think that really helped infuse it
with a lot of truth because you both have experiences
with adoption in your actual lives as well. I'm but
that scene in particular of how did you approach that scene?
The whole storyline has been polarizing and challenging for viewers,
(25:09):
but that is where it kind of at all climaxes.
How did you prepare for that? On on the writer's side,
for you, Liz, and then for for your performance. I
will say that courtroom scene, as long as it was,
it could have been twice as long. It doesn't feel
long though it flies by. It was one of our
longer scenes, you know. I think the Lexie Brian breakup
was our longest scene of the series, and the courtroom
(25:33):
scenes were probably right up there with the longer sequences.
And I think it was because there was so much
to me. There was a balance of all the things
we wanted to get across, and then there was a
structural balance and arc to the scene that had to
be like story balanced, you want, like a roller coaster,
(25:55):
not like h E kg. It's so yeah, it's it's
I mean, it's incredible. Like whereas what were you pulling
from and how did you prepare for seeing that? Like
it's just so intense. Well, the writing was so good
on our show, it was so the prep was usually
(26:16):
really easy. What was tricky It was more the mindset
of to now and what Like you said, both Liz
and I have real life experience with adoption and just
how much resource there is now and how much we've learned,
And it was just kind of keeping that um mindset
and not judging it and not making the characters seem
(26:39):
not smart or ignorant, just because we've come so far,
you know, around transparency and child's rights and truth, you know,
and and um. So that was just tricky just never
to sort of tip it too hard, because you know
she did. Linda did have to have a lot of
sort of slip ups, Like she had a lot of
time to prepare are for this trial, and at the
(27:02):
same time, she still had to have her blind spots,
you know what I mean, Like she couldn't become enlightened
in that moment, you know, who knows what where she'll
be um after you know, now that this audience knows
what what happens, like, who knows what she'll take away
from the experience, But in that moment, she can't know
(27:23):
what she doesn't know. So that was always that was
the delicate balance for just not tipping it. For you, Rose,
if you could now go to the Linda character in
n and and tell her anything, any any hot tips,
I guess because my experience as an adoptive mom is
(27:45):
so different, I would say that there is enough room
for everyone at the table that you know, you're you're
you don't have to fear of losing your child by
having too many people love them. It's a it's a
really amazing saying, crazy rich, complex landscape. So there's all
these factors socioeconomic and privilege that are that are exacerbating it.
(28:08):
But yeah, I would just tell her that, you know,
you don't have to be so scared. And then of course,
you know, we have all these other forces. We have
me as doing what Elaine is doing, which is ratcheting
up the tension for these these poor women. Yeah. Absolutely.
Now that the series has aired and viewers have gone
on the full journey with you, Liz, What are you
(28:30):
hoping that people take away from um? From the series?
From Your Baby? There's a lot of things. I mean,
one thing is what we're talking about, which is there
is no there is no perfect mother, UM, And we
would never we never asked the question like who's the
perfect father, who's the better father, who's the more deserving father?
(28:54):
Like this is language that is is unique to the
predicament of mothers, Like the way we judge mothers is
so harshly and in essence, society tells us that to
be good mothers we have to put every other part
of ourselves away. Um, that all of that is rivaling
our ability to be good mothers instead of fueling how
(29:18):
we mother. And so you know, there are a million
takeaways I could think of from the show, but I
think that's one of them, that that the question of
who's a better mother is is the problem? The same
question to you, what are you hoping that people take
away from the show at large? And also just Linda's
(29:38):
storyline and journey. I always hope that an audience sees
themselves in some of the characters or or feel seen.
I really responded as well to me as storyline, just
to that balance of the mother and the artist. Um,
it definitely like just seeing all the struggle and the fight,
we could all just you know what I mean, like
(29:59):
chill out just a little bit, like our kids are
gonna be okay. Thank you so much, rose Thank you.
Thanks again to Liz Tigler and to Rosemary DeWitt for
her time and her incredible, deeply moving performance. And in
the interest of things going full circle, much like the
series itself, I'd like to finish Little Fires Everywhere the
(30:23):
podcast with the woman who started it all, Celeste Ng,
who wrote the novel and later was a producer on
the limited series. This is an interview that Liz, take
Laura and I did with Celeste Ng from shortly before
the series began airing, and now that everybody knows how
the series ends, I am excited to share some of
celeste thoughts on episode eight, So let's go back in
(30:44):
time and take a listen. I think Lauren brought up
the idea that you might shift how the the very
very end of the show please out versus the book,
and I was a little bit apprehensive, but I also thought, okay,
this is it should be its own thing. I kind
of like the idea that it might go differently, um,
(31:07):
And so I was open to that, and there were
a couple of different ideas flitting around, and I remember
that I didn't actually know what you had decided. So
I didn't know until pretty late whether it was going
to be exactly like it was in the book, whether
it was going to be unit sort of idea number one.
You'd had our idea number two. And Lauren actually said,
don't let anyone spoil it for you. Wait, wait until
you see it on the screen. And so one of
(31:29):
the big changes is that question of who set the fire? Right. Um.
In the book, it's you know, I tell you in
the first sentence that is he set the fire, and
everybody kind of assumes is he set the fire? And
then is he set the fire? Um? This is because
I'm I'm not a mystery writer. Um, I it's pretty straightforward.
In the first sentence, you know, is he burned the
house down? Everyone assumes, as he burned the house down,
(31:49):
and then at the end, is he burn the house down?
And in the show it's much more open. At the
very beginning, you don't know who burned the house down
at Actually that present moment at the beginning of the
show ends with you know, do you know anyone who
would do this? And that's kind of the question that's
hanging over the show, and Liz, I really like the
choice that you all made to change how it goes.
(32:13):
I don't know if you want to talk about how
you landed on that and why you decided to do it. Yeah, well,
we felt like you know, in reading it, I definitely,
I mean I felt a couple ways about it. One is,
I felt like it was maybe worth considering, not surprising
the audience completely, but adding some elements where they thought
(32:35):
it was going in one direction and then was going
in another direction. I think, you know, just thinking about again,
in a book, it's kind of one thing, but in
thinking about adapting a series, you know, a central mystery
can be a propellant, good thing to have, and of
course in this book, I earned this adaptation and the book,
I feel like in the book you have the mystery
(32:59):
of me as secret of why she's helping Babe Um,
and of of why she came to this town in
the first place, and why she moves around, so you
have an underlying secret of the book. Um, but we
don't know that secret right away in the teaser of
the pilot, and so we felt like not answering the question,
(33:23):
leaving an open ended of who would do this would
create one propellant mystery in the book, only to reveal
slowly another building mystery. But then also I liked the
idea of honoring the book in the way of, yeah,
everyone thinks it's easy. You know, lu thinks it's easy. Um,
(33:44):
we're sort of ledge to think that it's easy, because
she seems like the obvious suspect, right she she she
singers her hair in the first episode, right where there's
should we see her playing with fire? There's all these
clues I like, not only surprising the audience in some ways,
but I feel like what you came up with makes
sense for the show as it's put together and as
(34:06):
you get to see everybody's strands a little bit more
developed that in some ways, everybody in that house had
a reason to to want to kind of start things over.
Everybody in that house had this sort of simmering resentment
that they needed to kind of get out, um and
let burn out in a way, And metaphorically, I like
(34:29):
the idea that Izi has been this outcast in her family,
she has never felt like they've supported her or that
they understand her. And by the end of the show,
when you see her siblings kind of acting in solidarity,
it's almost like they are apologizing to her. It's almost
like they're saying, you know, now we get you in
some ways. It's almost like they're all standing together. And
(34:51):
I really liked that idea that in the show, because
Zi's arc is sort of more clearly defined um through
the stories about her sexuality and scenes of her kind
of arguing with her mother, that her siblings have finally
understood her in a way that they hadn't understood her
before exactly. And so then by the end you think, Okay,
(35:12):
if this kid has been isolated and has been an
island in this family except for Moody and really her
connection with her father, which was also something we really wanted,
then we thought, how can then at the end the
siblings really change to see how Izzie has felt. How
do they see their family through Izzie's eyes, and how
(35:32):
do they see themselves through Izzie's eyes? And I thought
about this kid who felt so adrift and this idea
that they would do this as almost like a smoke signal,
like this idea of like we're going to make it
safe for you, like we are we are a unit,
like we are going to be better than our parents were,
(35:53):
which is what any new generation thinks. And then I
also really loved telling a story. Well two things. One
that Elena takes responsibility for starting this fire, not that
she literally means I should be love that, but that
she she recognizes that ultimately the responsibility kind of comes
to her, that all of the things that have led
(36:17):
all of her children to to kind of to do
this really at a certain point it's rooted in her.
And there is that sort of moment of of sort
of like delayed realization, which really I mean it's it's
one moment right in in real time, but it spans
the whole show. It goes from the very opening moments
(36:37):
to the very closing moments of the show. That's how
she realizes that she has been sort of the architect
of her own destruction. In that way, I think it's brilliant.
And we talked about that idea of that space between
when he asks the question and when she gives her
answer as her memory, and that this whole show has
(36:59):
been seen through the lens of her memory and understanding
that she started the fire. And I think there's a
great like kind of into the woods quality of it,
where it doesn't make anyone solely responsible, but everybody is
accountable because you know what, Bill started the fire too,
and so did Mia by coming to this town, and
so did correctly, and so did all those kids, and
everybody started and so did Elena's mother by being your mother,
(37:22):
and and I think that was it felt um, it
felt global, and it felt like this kind of umbrella,
like thematic umbrella that could be over the whole show. Yeah,
it'll I think it'll be really fun too for people
who have seen the book too in some ways be
be surprised by this in the same way that the
characters I think are surprised by that. And and it'll
(37:45):
be fun for them also sort of to go, Okay, well,
you know, why did they do that? To think about
what that means and and all of the sort of ramification.
As for the show, it is this moment of solidarity
that doesn't happen in the book. In the book, is
he is really much more alone? I think her brothers
and sisters maybe get her, but she doesn't know that
they do. And in this in the show, it's sort
(38:07):
of gratifying that there is this this moment where she
realizes that they're with her and that they support her,
and that she isn't maybe as alone as she thought
she was. Thank you again to Liz tiggle, our In
Celeste In, as well as Rosemary DeWitt, Reese Weatherspoon and
Carrie Washington and my gosh, everybody that marks the end
(38:31):
of Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast. I've been your host,
Jamie Loftus, and I want to thank you and everyone
for taking this behind the scenes journey with us to
this incredible limited series. You can still follow us for
all things Little Fires Everywhere in terms of updates at
Little Fires Hulu and until next time, we'll always have
Shaker Bye. It's got a prisident at coming in the
(39:04):
d again.
Hello, Little Fires Everywhere Heads, LFE heads, Shaker Rights. Did
we ever decided on a fan base name? Anyways? Welcome
back to the final episode of Little Fires Everywhere, the
official podcast. I'm your host, Jamie Loftus, and we have
a banger of a podcast finale for you today, Because
if you're listening to this right after watching this series
(00:37):
finale of Little Fires Everywhere, oh my word. I mean
there's no way to cover it in a spoiler free way,
but I was completely blown away by the final episode.
Just really intense performances, incredible twist and turn writing, beautiful direction,
just chefs kiss, amazing stuff, which is why for our
episode today, we wanted to do what we all lease do.
(01:00):
I know what happened behind the scenes from the people
who made the show what it is, and today you
are in for an absolute treat only hitters for guests.
We have the author of Little Fires Everywhere and producer
of the show, so lest In. We have the Little
Fires Everywhere showrunner, head writer and executive producer Liz Tiglar,
(01:20):
and we have the stars of the show. We're talking
Carrie Washington, Race Witherspoon, and Rosemary DeWitt. I know it's
a lot of good stuff. And keep in mind we
were originally going to have a big to do and
a whole live event, but that was during the before times,
and so for this interview, we are all on Zoom
in full quarantine. So what follows is my interview with Carrie,
(01:45):
Reese and Liz. And if you did not know, Carrie
and Race are more than just the incredible leads of
Little Fires Everywhere as Mia and Lena, they're also executive
producers on the show, so their fingerprints and influence have
been on this project since day one. We talked about
the finale, building out the world of their characters working
together for the first time and more so, let's take
(02:07):
a listen. Welcome Liz Tickler, Carrie Washington, and Reese Witherspoon.
All of our viewers and then listeners of the podcast
have seen the finale, and I'm very interested to hear
from all three of you. Is there any viewer reaction
(02:29):
that is like particularly like surprised you or touched you?
I mean, even throughout all of the episodes, Aring Reese,
what do you think? I mean, I think everything is
so incredibly thoughtful and even people's strong any kind of
strong reaction. Do you have anything even people hating Elena?
It makes me so out of the work that we did.
(02:53):
And we worked really hard to make sure the assumptions
that you had about any character would be dismantled by
something two or three episodes later, So it really challenged
your assumptions all the time, and that we really listed
such a beautiful job plotting that and being the architect
(03:15):
of you know, pulling people in and then pushing them away,
and um, it's just a it's a beautiful sort of
emotional jungle gym that people are going on. And I
haven't gotten to see people's reactions to the finale. Yeah,
but I'm so excited. Yeah, the ending of the series
is slightly different from the ending of the book, and Louse,
(03:39):
could you walk me through that decision making process. One
thing was clear, which was there's this very humorous thing
that happens at the beginning of the book, which is
this iconic houses on fire, the little fires everywhere, fires everywhere,
and you know in the beginning kind of on the
first page that is he's the one who did it.
So for a series, you know, it kind of begs
(03:59):
the question, like if you didn't know Izzy was the
one who did it, but even if all things point
to Izzy, or the assumption is that it's Izzy, is
there an overarching mystery to not knowing that answer that
could be propulsive and compelling. Um. Then it became this
great challenge to think, well, obviously we know it could
(04:21):
be easy, but if it wasn't Izzy, who could it be?
And I think we went on a real journey with
that challenge, which at first, you know, thinking what would
be who would be the most dramatic character that you
would not expect to burn the house down that would
have to go the furthest and have the furthest. Arc
obviously felt like Elena, and that was what we kind
of talked about at first. But I think all of us,
(04:42):
the Carrie, reaese Um, Lauren and Player are producing partners
and myself we talked about this idea of like is
that real? Is that just too far for for this
woman to go? Would any adult do this? There's obviously
something about it that so you can really buy a
teenager doing it much more than you can then a
her own person would need to do that. And then
(05:02):
as we you know, went on our journey with it,
I remember thinking like, who could it be be Lexie,
would it be Trip, would it be Moody? And it
didn't seem like it would be any one of them.
But then this idea kind of struck me of well,
could it be all three? And what would it mean
if it were all three? And could we take the
spirit of the book, which is Easy wanting to start
(05:23):
a fire, and could it kind of take on a
life of its own, so that Easy starts it and
the kids finish what she started and they have their
own reasons from their own arcs for like lighting these matches.
For Carrie and Reest, I guess I'm interested in your
reactions to where your characters land and where they might
(05:43):
go from here. Carrie, I feel really grateful that both
Mia and Elena that they there, They had to have
their illusion of control ripped from them, that they both there.
There were real costs two in the secrets that they kept,
in the ways that they were living their lives trying
(06:04):
to control the world around them by controlling their children,
that they both really had to they were forced to
let go of that, and I think that was so
beautifully designed by Celeste in the book and then really
just dimensionalized and and glorified by Liz is just really
(06:27):
so beautifully painted. Absolutely at the end of the show,
there's definitely a sense of hope that isn't necessarily in
the book. Boy, I just when I read the book,
I bawled my eyes. You can't treat your children that way.
And I think, you know this idea. I think we
(06:48):
all kind of longed for our mother to understand us,
our mother or whoever the parent is that raised you.
You just you want that that unconditional acceptance. And Izzy
doesn't get it. There's a lemmer of hope that Elena
holds the feather and says Izzy instead of Isabelle. It's
a big moment that Liz built in that It's like
you're always longing for your parents to truly understand you,
(07:12):
and and not just to understand you, but accept you.
And it comes. You know, that's a for many many
people in this world never happens. Yeah. I also I
like this idea of na Um. You know that car,
like taking that car from place to place, that car
was her everything and literally driving that car was how
(07:35):
she controlled Pearl's worldview. Um And to say to Pearl,
like you get to decide where the car goes next
Um and to be led two back to her home,
even though she assumed that Pearl would want to find
her dad, but she lets Pearl lead her somewhere equally
(07:58):
uncomfortable and lets herself get out of the car to
follow Pearl back into her her place of origin. Is really,
I think, also hopeful. I really like the adjustments made
from book Mia to show Mia, and I'm curious as
to where some of those came about where, um, part
(08:18):
of it's just flashing out her history more. But we
you know, in the book she doesn't have a sex
life really of any kind, and that was changed for
the series. And so where where did that idea begin?
A lot of that came from the writer's room and
this you know, Liz and this phenomenal room full of
just dynamic, intelligent, raw, courageous writers, and they decided early
(08:44):
on that there was, you know, this sort of um
image throughout history and literature of black women being a
sexual and so they wanted to make sure that Mia
that there was so missed read around her sexuality in
her sex life, but that it was embodied more so,
(09:05):
A lot of those traces really came from the writer's room.
And their desire to have me to be fully realized
on on your end, when you're kind of plugging into
this character and preparing, where were you able to meet
and understand her to build up the performance? You know,
I just had an experience of her when I read
(09:27):
her in the novel, and so I just felt like
I was constantly climbing toward that, like there was kind
of a soul of an understanding of her that existed
outside of me that as I read the book, I
saw her, I could smell her, I could hear her,
and I was just constantly trying to work in my
(09:51):
process to get close to that thing. Um that was
that that I felt was this combination of what I
read on the page and who why was the alchemy
of that created this other thing outside me that I
was just aiming for all the time, down to even
like taking photos and and like embodying her art life too,
(10:12):
which is so amazing. Yeah. I got to take photography
classes and learned to be a photographer because I feel
like there were things I would discover about Mia even
just from that learning process. And there were you know,
like even the way that she engages with people that
that her chosen art form, you know, like Greece and I,
(10:32):
our chosen art form is to like take on somebody
else's entire emotional and psychological being and like surrender ourselves
to live in somebody else's shoes and brain. And and
MIA's chosen form of art work was really about like
being on the outside, observing, capturing, manipulating, not giving herself
(10:56):
fully over, but trying to transform how you see a
supposed to transforming how you know how I see. So
just things like that that could help me understand how
she thinks. For reasons, I'm interested in how you were
able to find a connection and build out a lot
of depth in Bolina as well, where when we meet
her she's kind of this quintessential upper crust white housewife,
(11:19):
and then as the lawyers are are more exposed, she
has this very rich in her life. What what drew
you to her? And how did you build out that character?
I always look at characters that we see, you know,
you can read it very one dimensionally and and really
see her as this very rigid person from a place
(11:41):
at a time. But I always think of characters when
I meet people who are so rigid in their ideology
I'm always fascinated with digging deeper. Where does that? Where
did that come from? Where? What is that? Where did
that ideology come from? There's something sort of interesting about
that to me too. This in sense of entitlement, sense
(12:03):
of protecting a bubble that she grew up in and
that her children will grow up in. It's inevitable that
the world comes in and what happens to someone who
has that force field almost like a impenetrable idea of
what is right and what is good. And it's all
(12:24):
in the book. I mean, it's beautifully said in the book. Um,
you know that she believes that people who behave the
way that Mia does create chaos and they can burn
the whole world to the ground. Um, and then you
see obviously something else happens. But um, it's sort of
(12:45):
it was fascinating. I have deep tender thoughts about her,
as you have to in order to get inside these things.
Is as Gary said, you have to have you have
to have compassion and curiosity. And I I will say
to you know, for people who you don't think of hers,
they kind of love to hate her, which I totally
(13:05):
get that too. There there elements of it of deep
loss and sadness of her own identity. She was never
allowed to explore her identity. Yeah, and I mean, I
think it is kind of incredible over the course of
the series to not just see so distinctly who Elena
(13:26):
and who me are, but that they end up on
the opposite ends of the conflict of the adoption storyline
and of mailing. And you, you know, no matter who
you agree with, you fully understand where they're coming from
and why they're coming from that place, and that storyline,
(13:46):
I mean, for just me as a viewer was one
of the most fascinating and challenging that that I've seen
in TV in a long time. And so as speaking
as executive producers as well and as mothers. How how
was navigating that story reliant for everybody over the course
of production. Well, I mean, I don't know about y'all,
but I've had the best conversations about it with people.
(14:08):
I think it was always meant to illicit conversation, and
I think there isn't a right or wrong or how
we feel like I don't know, I would vastly wildly
between who that baby would thrive with, you know, And
I think people said to me yeah, what did the
parents do wrong? I mean, what does that woman want
the baby back? And and then you go, okay, well,
(14:29):
but isn't her biology it's her biological child. What would
And it's a very fantastic conversation. Yeah. There was one
day once that it was very I think it was
her first day she was working little Baby Molly, and
the call she had said m Mirabelle. And I saw
I heard some folks on set reacting um, and so
(14:53):
I went to our amazingly sensitive, phenomenal line producer, Mary Howard,
who I worked with on Scandal for seven seasons, um,
and I said, I think we need to change it,
I think, And we started labeling it as baby m
on the call sheet because like whether to put may
Ling or marabel on the call sheet was a big deal. Yeah,
(15:15):
it's didn't know that that's amazing. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah,
because people, even just in the hair and makeup trailer,
people were like, why is it? Why is it Mirrabelle?
And I was like, oh, well, let me go see
what I can do about that. That story like cuts
to the quick of what you believe, like like people
(15:36):
hear that story or see that story and you have
an immediate gut instinct based on not necessarily things as
negative as prejudices or even as um obvious as biases,
but just um, just based on your own life and circumstances,
you will have a gut reaction to that story. I
(15:58):
am an adopted kid. When I opened up that book
and started reading, I was like, the mccullas are the parents.
There's no way you can't have a little bit. You
can't have been with their parents for ten months and
then be ripped away. But of course what you do
then as and that's how I came into the room.
Other writers came in in the complete opposite way. And
I will say, by the time we got done with
(16:19):
the story, not that our paths had crisscrossed in that
we were saying the polar opposite thing, but I could
no longer say that that was the mcculla's baby, because
once you understand the circumstances in which BB gave had
to give up her child, you can't say she should
(16:43):
be penalized for circumstances that are beyond her control. Now
that the whole series has aired, what do you hope
that viewers take away from having watched Little Fires everywhere.
I had to train for this movie once where I
was with in C Double, a multiple time champions softball
(17:03):
coach from U C. L A. I mean, I learned
so much from this woman, y'all in four months. It
was like she was like another mother to me in
certain ways. She said something so profound to me. She said,
what parents don't realize is that their children's minds aren't
aren't a dry race board, Like you don't get to
say something and then take it away. You write on
(17:25):
your child's mind with a sharpie. And it was so
profound when she said it to me. I had a
little a seven year old, a three year old, and
she said, be so careful with what you tell them
about who they are, who you are, what is possible.
(17:46):
And I've always taken that to heart. And I think
that's that That's one thing. There's so many things in
this show, but I do think be you know that
that is a cautionary tale. Be be thoughtful of the
things that you say to your children, because they they
take them in. It becomes it's very real for them.
A phrase that I love is don't compare your insides
(18:10):
to other people's outsides. This idea that you know, you
just don't know what's going on for other people. And
I love that, particularly in episode six, you really learned
that Mia and Elena are much more similar than anyone
They were like each other there in their younger lives.
(18:31):
I think it's so important for us, particularly now, to
have this understanding that there's more going on for people
than we could have imagined, and that that could be
a reason for us to be more patient with each
other and accepting of one another rather than more kind
of fearful and judgmental of one another. Absolutely, I think
(18:56):
there's this idea that like, look, these two women were
so immeler um, I mean, so different in so many
ways but similar, and that they fiercely wanted to do right.
They didn't see what they were doing that was so destructive.
But the point is you teach your children what you know,
and you hope that your children are going to take
(19:17):
that and be even better than you were. And I
think what's so beautiful about the and and then by
that you are raising them to be better even with
the good and the bad. And what I think so
beautiful about this story is the end result is these
two women raised these brave kids to not only transform
their lives, but to go back and to transform the
(19:39):
lives of their own mothers, to give them hope and
give them what they're longing for, which is certain kinds
of freedom and choice. And that's beautiful. I just hope
that this is a conversation for people you know and
and and that they if you identify as one character,
that you're seeing the reality of a different character. And
(20:02):
I think that's the real beauty of this show. I
think it is really eye opening too, you know, as
we become even more switched into our little bubbles. Remember
there's there's others. There's so many different people out there
doing the best they can with what they've got where
they are. Well. Thank all three of you so much
(20:24):
for joining us, and congratulations on such a beautiful show.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Handsome She.
Thank you again to legends Carrie Washington, Greese Weatherspoon, and
Liz tag Alre. I now know what it feels like
(20:45):
to be star struck over Zoom. And for the record, yes,
of course I did uh fully dress up because I'm
a professional, but yes, total honor. And I can't wait
to see how recent carry collaborate next question mark, but
white listeners, there is more more In addition to reason carry,
Liz take a Laura Night got to speak with Rosemary
de Witt, who plays Linda may Link's adoptive mother in
(21:07):
the Little Fires Everywhere series, and she made some time
out of her busy Quarantine schedule to catch up with
us after the finale of the show aired on Hulu.
Rosemary de Witt is a veteran actress and an adoptive
mother herself in real life, so she has some truly
amazing insight into Linda's storyline and character, and so I
was very thrilled to speak to her about that, the
(21:28):
finale of the show and more. Let's listen to our conversation, Rosemary, Liz, Hello,
thank you for joining us in in Quarantine. So, Rosemary,
what was your reaction to the finale of of the
story and particularly where where Linda ends. I appreciated that. Uh.
(21:53):
For me, it was surprising the ending and it was complicated,
and especially as far as a storyline that I was
involved in. Maitlan has two mothers and you know that's
there that's left standing at the end of the show.
Going back to when you first read the book, what
drew you to this part and to this project I
(22:16):
was really also for me, I think I was drawn
into Linda's journey with her sort of pregnancy and child
loss because I think that often gets swept under the rug,
you know, and it it often defines a mother not
only how she builds her family often but how she
then parents. So that's really what pulled me in to it,
(22:37):
Like that's what was so heartbreaking to me was when
she had to give birth to a stillborn baby and
then you know, and she definitely it's what drives the
fight of just not being able to endure that loss again.
Were there any storylines, whether it was yours or others,
that were particularly challenging. We have like all these different
stories of actors and crew members going in with one
(23:00):
opinion on an issue and then coming out with like,
oh god, I don't know. And I was so moved
by the young performers on our show, like they're all
so talented. And for me, when I watched the show,
I thought the breakup scene with Elena's eldest daughter and
her boyfriend, like that just broke my heart, you know,
like you realize like a lot of people's hearts are
(23:21):
in the right places, and the executions terrible or they
were taught you know, maybe values that were suspect or
you know, or they're just all working through and and
just in general, the kids, you know, the children and
the story just are really struggling to have their own identity.
Liz and I can speak a little bit to just
the kind of the Linda in the book, and then
(23:43):
how Rose came in and like I think even elevated
and deepened and made her even more nuanced. I think
the Linda in the book, like her blind spots were glaring.
Do not I did not like Book Linda at all.
I don't think you root for Book Linda. When Rose
(24:04):
came in, I mean, she is so winning and root
for able anyway, but I felt like she brought this
this humanity to this character and a care to this character.
This was one of those where I never saw a
writer work harder on a script in my life, Like
the script was never finished in anything that popped up
(24:27):
in the courtroom or any discovery, or if Carrie improvised
a line or set a line in a certain way,
and that could change the whole like where it landed,
and then we could go over and whisper by the
monitor and then say, I think Linda has to have
a retort to that when she takes the stand. And
so it was always very much in a live vital
(24:48):
um process, and I think that really helped infuse it
with a lot of truth because you both have experiences
with adoption in your actual lives as well. I'm but
that scene in particular of how did you approach that scene?
The whole storyline has been polarizing and challenging for viewers,
(25:09):
but that is where it kind of at all climaxes.
How did you prepare for that? On on the writer's side,
for you, Liz, and then for for your performance. I
will say that courtroom scene, as long as it was,
it could have been twice as long. It doesn't feel
long though it flies by. It was one of our
longer scenes, you know. I think the Lexie Brian breakup
was our longest scene of the series, and the courtroom
(25:33):
scenes were probably right up there with the longer sequences.
And I think it was because there was so much
to me. There was a balance of all the things
we wanted to get across, and then there was a
structural balance and arc to the scene that had to
be like story balanced, you want, like a roller coaster,
(25:55):
not like h E kg. It's so yeah, it's it's
I mean, it's incredible. Like whereas what were you pulling
from and how did you prepare for seeing that? Like
it's just so intense. Well, the writing was so good
on our show, it was so the prep was usually
(26:16):
really easy. What was tricky It was more the mindset
of to now and what Like you said, both Liz
and I have real life experience with adoption and just
how much resource there is now and how much we've learned,
And it was just kind of keeping that um mindset
and not judging it and not making the characters seem
(26:39):
not smart or ignorant, just because we've come so far,
you know, around transparency and child's rights and truth, you know,
and and um. So that was just tricky just never
to sort of tip it too hard, because you know
she did. Linda did have to have a lot of
sort of slip ups, Like she had a lot of
time to prepare are for this trial, and at the
(27:02):
same time, she still had to have her blind spots,
you know what I mean, Like she couldn't become enlightened
in that moment, you know, who knows what where she'll
be um after you know, now that this audience knows
what what happens, like, who knows what she'll take away
from the experience, But in that moment, she can't know
(27:23):
what she doesn't know. So that was always that was
the delicate balance for just not tipping it. For you, Rose,
if you could now go to the Linda character in
n and and tell her anything, any any hot tips,
I guess because my experience as an adoptive mom is
(27:45):
so different, I would say that there is enough room
for everyone at the table that you know, you're you're
you don't have to fear of losing your child by
having too many people love them. It's a it's a
really amazing saying, crazy rich, complex landscape. So there's all
these factors socioeconomic and privilege that are that are exacerbating it.
(28:08):
But yeah, I would just tell her that, you know,
you don't have to be so scared. And then of course,
you know, we have all these other forces. We have
me as doing what Elaine is doing, which is ratcheting
up the tension for these these poor women. Yeah. Absolutely.
Now that the series has aired and viewers have gone
on the full journey with you, Liz, What are you
(28:30):
hoping that people take away from um? From the series?
From Your Baby? There's a lot of things. I mean,
one thing is what we're talking about, which is there
is no there is no perfect mother, UM, And we
would never we never asked the question like who's the
perfect father, who's the better father, who's the more deserving father?
(28:54):
Like this is language that is is unique to the
predicament of mothers, Like the way we judge mothers is
so harshly and in essence, society tells us that to
be good mothers we have to put every other part
of ourselves away. Um, that all of that is rivaling
our ability to be good mothers instead of fueling how
(29:18):
we mother. And so you know, there are a million
takeaways I could think of from the show, but I
think that's one of them, that that the question of
who's a better mother is is the problem? The same
question to you, what are you hoping that people take
away from the show at large? And also just Linda's
(29:38):
storyline and journey. I always hope that an audience sees
themselves in some of the characters or or feel seen.
I really responded as well to me as storyline, just
to that balance of the mother and the artist. Um,
it definitely like just seeing all the struggle and the fight,
we could all just you know what I mean, like
(29:59):
chill out just a little bit, like our kids are
gonna be okay. Thank you so much, rose Thank you.
Thanks again to Liz Tigler and to Rosemary DeWitt for
her time and her incredible, deeply moving performance. And in
the interest of things going full circle, much like the
series itself, I'd like to finish Little Fires Everywhere the
(30:23):
podcast with the woman who started it all, Celeste Ng,
who wrote the novel and later was a producer on
the limited series. This is an interview that Liz, take
Laura and I did with Celeste Ng from shortly before
the series began airing, and now that everybody knows how
the series ends, I am excited to share some of
celeste thoughts on episode eight, So let's go back in
(30:44):
time and take a listen. I think Lauren brought up
the idea that you might shift how the the very
very end of the show please out versus the book,
and I was a little bit apprehensive, but I also thought, okay,
this is it should be its own thing. I kind
of like the idea that it might go differently, um,
(31:07):
And so I was open to that, and there were
a couple of different ideas flitting around, and I remember
that I didn't actually know what you had decided. So
I didn't know until pretty late whether it was going
to be exactly like it was in the book, whether
it was going to be unit sort of idea number one.
You'd had our idea number two. And Lauren actually said,
don't let anyone spoil it for you. Wait, wait until
you see it on the screen. And so one of
(31:29):
the big changes is that question of who set the fire? Right. Um.
In the book, it's you know, I tell you in
the first sentence that is he set the fire, and
everybody kind of assumes is he set the fire? And
then is he set the fire? Um? This is because
I'm I'm not a mystery writer. Um, I it's pretty straightforward.
In the first sentence, you know, is he burned the
house down? Everyone assumes, as he burned the house down,
(31:49):
and then at the end, is he burn the house down?
And in the show it's much more open. At the
very beginning, you don't know who burned the house down
at Actually that present moment at the beginning of the
show ends with you know, do you know anyone who
would do this? And that's kind of the question that's
hanging over the show, and Liz, I really like the
choice that you all made to change how it goes.
(32:13):
I don't know if you want to talk about how
you landed on that and why you decided to do it. Yeah, well,
we felt like you know, in reading it, I definitely,
I mean I felt a couple ways about it. One is,
I felt like it was maybe worth considering, not surprising
the audience completely, but adding some elements where they thought
(32:35):
it was going in one direction and then was going
in another direction. I think, you know, just thinking about again,
in a book, it's kind of one thing, but in
thinking about adapting a series, you know, a central mystery
can be a propellant, good thing to have, and of
course in this book, I earned this adaptation and the book,
I feel like in the book you have the mystery
(32:59):
of me as secret of why she's helping Babe Um,
and of of why she came to this town in
the first place, and why she moves around, so you
have an underlying secret of the book. Um, but we
don't know that secret right away in the teaser of
the pilot, and so we felt like not answering the question,
(33:23):
leaving an open ended of who would do this would
create one propellant mystery in the book, only to reveal
slowly another building mystery. But then also I liked the
idea of honoring the book in the way of, yeah,
everyone thinks it's easy. You know, lu thinks it's easy. Um,
(33:44):
we're sort of ledge to think that it's easy, because
she seems like the obvious suspect, right she she she
singers her hair in the first episode, right where there's
should we see her playing with fire? There's all these
clues I like, not only surprising the audience in some ways,
but I feel like what you came up with makes
sense for the show as it's put together and as
(34:06):
you get to see everybody's strands a little bit more
developed that in some ways, everybody in that house had
a reason to to want to kind of start things over.
Everybody in that house had this sort of simmering resentment
that they needed to kind of get out, um and
let burn out in a way, And metaphorically, I like
(34:29):
the idea that Izi has been this outcast in her family,
she has never felt like they've supported her or that
they understand her. And by the end of the show,
when you see her siblings kind of acting in solidarity,
it's almost like they are apologizing to her. It's almost
like they're saying, you know, now we get you in
some ways. It's almost like they're all standing together. And
(34:51):
I really liked that idea that in the show, because
Zi's arc is sort of more clearly defined um through
the stories about her sexuality and scenes of her kind
of arguing with her mother, that her siblings have finally
understood her in a way that they hadn't understood her
before exactly. And so then by the end you think, Okay,
(35:12):
if this kid has been isolated and has been an
island in this family except for Moody and really her
connection with her father, which was also something we really wanted,
then we thought, how can then at the end the
siblings really change to see how Izzie has felt. How
do they see their family through Izzie's eyes, and how
(35:32):
do they see themselves through Izzie's eyes? And I thought
about this kid who felt so adrift and this idea
that they would do this as almost like a smoke signal,
like this idea of like we're going to make it
safe for you, like we are we are a unit,
like we are going to be better than our parents were,
(35:53):
which is what any new generation thinks. And then I
also really loved telling a story. Well two things. One
that Elena takes responsibility for starting this fire, not that
she literally means I should be love that, but that
she she recognizes that ultimately the responsibility kind of comes
to her, that all of the things that have led
(36:17):
all of her children to to kind of to do
this really at a certain point it's rooted in her.
And there is that sort of moment of of sort
of like delayed realization, which really I mean it's it's
one moment right in in real time, but it spans
the whole show. It goes from the very opening moments
(36:37):
to the very closing moments of the show. That's how
she realizes that she has been sort of the architect
of her own destruction. In that way, I think it's brilliant.
And we talked about that idea of that space between
when he asks the question and when she gives her
answer as her memory, and that this whole show has
(36:59):
been seen through the lens of her memory and understanding
that she started the fire. And I think there's a
great like kind of into the woods quality of it,
where it doesn't make anyone solely responsible, but everybody is
accountable because you know what, Bill started the fire too,
and so did Mia by coming to this town, and
so did correctly, and so did all those kids, and
everybody started and so did Elena's mother by being your mother,
(37:22):
and and I think that was it felt um, it
felt global, and it felt like this kind of umbrella,
like thematic umbrella that could be over the whole show. Yeah,
it'll I think it'll be really fun too for people
who have seen the book too in some ways be
be surprised by this in the same way that the
characters I think are surprised by that. And and it'll
(37:45):
be fun for them also sort of to go, Okay, well,
you know, why did they do that? To think about
what that means and and all of the sort of ramification.
As for the show, it is this moment of solidarity
that doesn't happen in the book. In the book, is
he is really much more alone? I think her brothers
and sisters maybe get her, but she doesn't know that
they do. And in this in the show, it's sort
(38:07):
of gratifying that there is this this moment where she
realizes that they're with her and that they support her,
and that she isn't maybe as alone as she thought
she was. Thank you again to Liz tiggle, our In
Celeste In, as well as Rosemary DeWitt, Reese Weatherspoon and
Carrie Washington and my gosh, everybody that marks the end
(38:31):
of Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast. I've been your host,
Jamie Loftus, and I want to thank you and everyone
for taking this behind the scenes journey with us to
this incredible limited series. You can still follow us for
all things Little Fires Everywhere in terms of updates at
Little Fires Hulu and until next time, we'll always have
Shaker Bye. It's got a prisident at coming in the
(39:04):
d again.
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