April 29, 2024 • 30 mins
Brené Brown is a bestselling author and social scientist known for her work on complex emotions like shame and vulnerability. She opens up to Maya about the evolution of some of her most important identities: big sister, recovering perfectionist, and reluctant public figure. She also shares how COVID affected her marriage, her struggles with social media, and how she's redefining ambition.
If you liked this episode, check out Maya on Brene’s podcast Dare to Lead.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers, I've got a special guest for
you this week, Brenee Brown. You may have heard Brene's
(00:36):
ted talk, The Power of Vulnerability. It's been viewed more
than sixty four million times. She's a social science professor
at the University of Houston and is best known for
her research on complex emotions like shame and vulnerability. She's
also the best selling author of books like Braving the
Wilderness and Atlas of the Heart. A few years ago,
(00:59):
I was a guest on her podcast, Dare to Lead.
We talked about cultivating courage and the face of change
and how change can affect our identities. And so today
I wanted to continue that conversation and talk a bit
more about identity, how we can find ourselves picking up
and holding on to different ones over the course of
our lives. Brenee and I discussed a few identities that
(01:21):
she holds particularly close. Recovering, perfectionist, reluctant public figure, partner
to her husband, and parent to two kids. We began
our conversation talking about one of her earliest identities, big sister.
She says her role as big sister really started to
take shape when she was around eight years old.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
In my family, there was a very fine line between
older sister and co parent.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I think those.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Identities grew together in an inextricably connected way, for better
and worse. My parents, like many of our parents, really
had no idea what they were doing, and they were
doing the best they could. They both came from a
(02:14):
ton of trauma, and so very early on, my job
was to maintain as much stability as possible in a
very tumultuous household.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
In the context of young Brune, did that look like
emotional support?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
It's a tough question. I think that identity of.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Older sister, co parent protector grew in harmony with another
identity that's really profoundly still who I am, which is patternfinder.
I could understand very quickly what comment between my parents
or someone else that was maybe at the house.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Would unwind in a way that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Would make things tenuous and possibly dangerous. I think I
was always kind of of running around sorting things, calming
things down, intervening, making sure everything was as okay as
it could be, to prevent some kind of blow up.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I love this idea of patternfinder. I think in so
many ways we're kindred spirits in that way. I mean, oh,
I don't know. Yeah, Like, even though I was the
youngest of four, I was so emotionally attuned to dynamics
and was trying to like implicitly or explicitly negotiate things,
and it was almost impossible for me to ever turn
(03:44):
that switch.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Off one hundred percent. I actually.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Have spent probably twenty years of my life trying to
do work to turn that off. I am I am
always assessing, and I very quickly can see how behavior, emotion,
and cognition are connected in people. I mean my family
(04:09):
growing up, if someone made a joke, everyone would laugh
and I would just kind of like uh. And I
could see if the exact same joke was made but
the context was different, there is potentially going to be
a screaming match or potential violence just based on the
context of it happening. And it explains a lot about me,
(04:32):
which is I was not fun. I was the protector
or the protector in waiting. It's kind of like that
movie where the where the kids like I see dead people.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, yeah, sixth sense yeah yeah, y yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It's kind of like I see when shit's getting ready
to go down. Yeah, absolutely, And I don't intervene anymore.
But I also, you know, want to high tail it
out of there and take the people I love with me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
How do you see your relationship as protector patterns secret
big sister having evolved over time? So, now that you're
in adulthood and you're outside of the immediately threatening environment,
let's say, a family life, how has that role changed
for you, if at all. I mean, it still might
have those same tones. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I think when you come from kind of an eggshell environment,
there's a hyper vigilance around what's going to cause the
response that's dangerous, either verbally, emotionally, or maybe even physically.
I have done and am doing a lot of personal
work around it, and continue to do it. I think
my sisters and I call each other out on it.
(05:47):
One of my sisters will say, hey, hey, hey, we
know how to handle we're grown up too now, and
we also think we can do some of this way
better than you can do it, So back off, call
your therapist, sit down, you know.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And so I'm like, Okay, yeah, that's great because I can't.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah yeah, yeah, what a wonderful evolution. I'd love to
hop to the next identity lily pad if you will,
and talk about perfectionism. So yet another one that we
share in common, Vernee, where do you think the roots
of your perfectionism emerged? So let's take genes off the table.
So let's say you know, we both have a genetic
(06:22):
predisposition towards this, but environmentally, what do you think might
have led to that?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I from an early age, as the oldest, as the protector,
I saw and experienced a link between my loveability and
how good I was, and I needed to be morally
(06:47):
ethically performatively, you know, like in every dimension good equated
to love ability.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And was this love from your parents or just in
general from all the adults in your life?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think it was from all the adults. I think
there was this collection of moments that just continue to
provide data piece after data piece after data piece, you know,
like dependability, sacrifice, manners, grades, a million pieces of data
(07:25):
that reinforce this idea that good is lovable and not
good is not lovable.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is there a time you remember where you actively wished
you were not a perfectionist, where you felt it's sabotaging
some aspect of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I guess one of the things that's dawning on me
as we're having this conversation right now, is the idea
of perfectionism being what will other people think? I am
not as vulnerable to that as I used to be.
Where I am still vulnerable is when people say you're
(08:13):
not a good person. That I have to work on
that to not be crippling. So when I do something
that people disagree with, or I have a position that
people disagree with and they attribute that to what they
think they know about me, that can be really, really
painful for me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And how do you engage with that pain? What's your response?
Because surely it's not just changing your position, right, you
have a set of values, and so I wonder when
you run up against that tension, but appeasing that audience
by changing your point of view isn't on the table.
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I try to always keep curiosity in learning on the table.
I try to extend the same generosity to other people
that I'd want extended to me. I try to take
in what's learnable and then what's mean spirited or hateful.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
But I think.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I don't know how to do it really well. To
be honest with you, I don't have a solution there.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
No, and I'm with you girl. So yeah, there was
an experience that I had at work where because of
a misunderstanding, I felt like a colleague of mine thought
I wasn't a good person and she wouldn't engage with
me on the topic. So I never had the opportunity
to conflict resolve. And this was one of the most
(09:39):
maddening experiences for me because I am not prideful. I
will come to every table admit where I went wrong
or what my weaknesses are. But the fact she wasn't
willing to engage brene put me into this frantic state
of panic, like I will never get resolution here. I
will never be able to prove to this person that
I'm actually good and I didn't mean any harm. And
I don't know what it is she even is upset
(10:00):
with me about. And the only thing I had in
that moment to work with was my own brain, because
I had no ability to communicate with her. So I
had to find a way to change my own perception,
and so I visualized what it meant for her to
maybe think that I was a bad person, And in
my head, the visual was there are these electrical signals
(10:22):
in her brain that occasionally occur where these neurons fire
and say I don't like Maya, okay, and it's fleeting,
and like, I'm not a narcisst I know it's having
very infrequently, but all it is is just this transient
electrical signal, and we pump so much air into this
(10:43):
feeling of what other people think of us as this
massive concept, and for some reason, that visual took the
air out of it. It like deflated that balloon. It
took the power away from her. I was like, Okay,
so I'm going to walk around this world and there's
going to be humans who have that neural activity that
(11:03):
I don't agree with Maya. I don't like Maya. I
think Maya's XYZ. And maybe that's a world that I
can comfortably live in and be happy in and find
peace in anyway. I don't know if that's helpful, but
it's just it's taken some of the emotional punch out
of this feeling of someone not liking you or not
approving of you.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
God, I'm like mesmerized, I'm hanging on every word. I
just think it's so right sizing that it's a fleeting
thought in the mind of a single person that we
have no control over.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean, it makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
And the disproportionate amount of energy we spend compared to
the fleeting littles exactly mine.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You would have thought I was getting my PhD in
this woman during that period of time, I was like
ninety percent of my brain power was like how do
I get her to not be mad at me? And
I don't even know why she's mad? You know, I
put so much mental labor into trying to solve this
problem that was unsolvable. Yeah, I meanside though, by the
way it just takes on this point, as you might think, well,
then every positive thought people have about me is transient too.
(12:15):
But I actually think it's good to think of the
positive stuff as transient as well. I mean, because otherwise
you can over index on that, you can attach so
much value and self worth to that and then suddenly
collapses and you don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I absolutely and the positive vilance is much more scary
for me than the negative personally. To be honest with you,
I don't like that party there very much.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, SayMore. I'm so curious, especially as because you're such
a public figure and so I'm so curious to know
how that intersects.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, I'll go back to Braving the Wilderness. When I
wrote that book, i shared my support for Black Lives
Matter and why I thought it was a really important
movement that we should be paying attention to. And it
was the first time I experienced people walking out of
(13:10):
event centers and places during my book tour talks specifically
around that issue, like getting up in the middle of
like what I'm talking, people said they felt personally betrayed
by me and disappointed in me because my work had
meant so much to them and overcoming hard things the
(13:33):
death of a child or you know, their own eating disorder,
their divorce, or you know, just like really hard things,
And then how could I betray them by having an
opinion a political belief that was so far from their own.
And what I realized in that moment is that's a
(13:53):
result of people projecting on me who they need me
to be. Does that make sense to you at all?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, that's that is so interesting because basically, they they
found your work meaningful, therapy, resonant. It's helped them during
a hard time, and obviously they have some fraction of
an understanding of who you are. Right, they're consuming a
book you've written, and what you're saying is they're essentially
filling in all the gaps in their knowledge of who
(14:22):
you are with an idealized version of you that meets
their criteria.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I remember the first time I became aware of it.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, I was telling a story and I was like, oh,
I was so mad. I was flipping this driver off
underneath that, you know, underneath the steering wall where they
couldn't see me. And someone said, you really actually don't
sound very wholehearted at all.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And I was like what.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And they're like, I thought you were all about wholeheartedness,
and I was like, I think I'm about deep, flawed, messy, lovable,
amazing humanity like I, you know, And so I'm not
going to be a good avatar for you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Looking for a messy, complicated, deeply flawed person.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
More of my conversation with Brene after the break. We'll
be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
One identity Brene Brown has had for a long time
(15:37):
is partner to her husband Steve. They've been together for decades.
I wanted to know more about how this identity has
evolved over time because I'm a hopeless romantic and I
also watch crappy TV like The Bachelor. Just indulge me
for indulgent for a moment.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
This I love about you.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean, there's so many things to love about you,
but this is one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I may or may not have attended the live taping
of After the Final Rows in LA for The Bachelor,
So maybe I don't know. Did I miss a work
dated that. I don't know?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Okay, I don't know either. We will never know, actually.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Like who would do that? I mean, wow, what a
wait of time? Right? Yeah? Okay, so just indulge me
for a second. And I would love to hear about
falling in love with Steve, Like when did you know
that you wanted to marry him? And what was what
were the traits that he exhibited that made you think, Okay,
I think this guy. I could make it work with
this guy.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean I the first time I met him, I
went home and told my roommate, I think I'm going
to marry this guy.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
And we were young.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We were lifeguards in love at a pool over the summer.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And how old were you?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
God?
Speaker 4 (16:46):
We were.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Eighteen and twenty one, and so we made mixtapes and.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
We we like it was like.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, and you know, and he comes from a lot
of hard family stuff too, and he was the first
person that we talked about that. And then we dated
off and on for seven years and got married and
we've been married now.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It'll be thirty years in June.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Wow, COVID the last couple of years has been the
hardest season of our marriage, for sure. I think we
both believe it's supposed to be hard as hell.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Can you tell me about why COVID in particular was
so hard.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are.
I think, you know, he's a pediatrician. I'm trying to
keep a business afloat. My mom had just been diagnosed
with rapid onset dementia, and then we tried to get
snink my mom out of her assisted living facility, like
in the hour before it shut down, where we couldn't
get in everybody's living together. It was just like it
(17:54):
was what everybody was going through in the world, you know,
And we had resources and access to things that the
vast majority of people didn't have, and we were still
just barely holding on and we did not have any
bandwidth for each other or anything but what was in
front of us to accomplish that day. And that's the
(18:14):
conditions under which things, you know, fall apart. So it
was a rebuild. And we're also in a weird season
of our lives. Our youngest is going to college. There's
a real like, hi, and Brene, nice to meet you.
I'm Steve, nice to meet you. It's a season on
it in its own.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah. You know, you had mentioned that you and Steve
both believe that marriage is supposed to be hard as hell,
and I'm wondering if you can unpack that for me.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So I think expecting it to be hard, expecting it
to be work, it's just not two people hanging out
being themselves. There's like that third entity that is your
relationship that very few of us saw modeled how to
build it in a way that we want to be
in it. My parents are divorced, Steve's parents are divorced.
(19:01):
See's parents are divorced, remarried, were married, divorced. My parents divorce,
We married divorced, you know, like, and so we knew
what we didn't want it to be and we also
just knew it was going to be a ton of work.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I've done a lot of hard.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Shit in my life, nothing compares to how hard this is.
And so I think that having kids shocked to the system,
Balancing careers shock to the system, navigating different career trajectories
(19:36):
and ambitions, death, illness shocks to the system. I mean,
I think I heard Paul Newman saying the reason why
his marriage lasted so long is neither one of them
wanted to get a divorce at.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
The same time. And I think that's so funny and true.
But I think very few of us know how to.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Fight well, talk about our feelings a way where we
can stay curious with each other and not defensive.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I mean, I'm still learning that stuff, Like we're still
trying to.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Get better, and I mean, hey, the jury still out,
I would you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot
of shit can go bad really fast. But to this point,
we were able to coordinate our individual growth inside of
our partnership.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, it is. So I'm just reflecting this moment. It's
hearkening back to twenty sixteen when my husband Jimmy and
I got married, and I remember writing our vows, and
at the end it was something like, you know, with
all these people surrounding us who love us so dearly,
you know, I feel that we can beat anything. And
then I like took my pen and I was like,
I don't believe that there are so many things that
(20:52):
could break us, Like, yeah, I have the humility to
know all the many things that could break us. And
so I remember striking that out and writing instead, the
odds are in our favor, which was such a maya
thing to put in a vows and made perfect sense
to Jimmy and probably made it more romantic from his perspective.
But it's so awesome.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's so statistically, I think the odds are good.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, the odds are good. So that was kind of
acknowledging what you've been saying this whole time, which is
things can get really really hard. Yeah, as you think
to the future, is there an identity that you would
love to lay claim to that you would love to
have but you haven't yet? God Lee, Sorry, that's a toughie.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
No, it's so good.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I think the identity that I have right now that
I can't wait to see where it goes is two
have a my guess our mom and partner. I I
there's so much better sweetness in being a mom, because
the whole gig is such a shit show because you're
(22:03):
just really trying to help them leave you, and so
that's like tough.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But of course, yeah, yeah, But I will say that
I have.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Loved being the mom of adult children as much as
I loved you know, four year olds and eight year
olds and twelve year olds and fifteen year olds and toddlers.
And it's just watching my kids figure out who they
want to be and how they want to contribute to
(22:33):
the world and navigate their own partnerships and friendships is
just such a privilege to get to do and it's
so fun, and so I'm excited to continue that role
and just to see how it plays out and to continue,
you know, the privilege of getting to be a part
of their lives. And I think also I'm very curious
(22:54):
and interested in committed to figuring out how Steve and
I do this next season. And I'll be curious to
see what I want to do with my career and
what I won't want to do anymore. And I have
some some usual some suspects on the list of what
I don't want to do anymore and some suspects on
the list of what I might want to do. I
(23:14):
think getting off social for a year was really helpful
because I do think there is the leading of who
you are for the avatar.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Of who you are.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, definitely a.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Lot of the systems that we thought would be good
around this or broken and the algorithms are set the
wrong way.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Do you agree, yes?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Don't know what the answer is. I don't know how
to build community have impact. Yeah, in a world that's
full of so much pain and projection.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I don't know what the experience of your advantage point is.
I only have my own. But I can see myself
tempering classic ambition in this space because I'm afraid of
it because it just.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Say that again, because it seems like really important. I
really want to understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So I want my ideas to reach as many people
as possible. What I found myself resisting in the recent
online climate is more followers, more likes, more downloads, more this,
more that, because I don't actually know if that's a
net good anymore, And so then what becomes the north star? Like,
(24:41):
what is my goal? I mean, it's meaningful connection with
individual people, right, how does that scale? And the current
social media environment is so unappealing to me because of
what it incentivizes. But at the same time, I spent
a lot of time doing a lot of thoughtful work.
I want the conversations on the show to be widely heard.
(25:01):
I want it in as many earbudds as possible. So like,
there's a tension there for me and I just don't
know what the answers are.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's just such a beautiful framing of the question. I
one of the questions that I'm asking myself based on
what you just said, is how do you operationalize ambition?
How do you set metrics for success in the current
milieu that we live in.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So, like, one example of this is that I know
that a slight change of plans would quote perform better
if I did more episodes a year. This is a
situation where I will only produce high quality content if
I have a life that I live outside of this world,
because otherwise I'm not living enough of life to be
(25:47):
interesting or to learn to consume other people's content, to
read books and just be a better person.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
But let's but let's can I just could you just
indulge me for a second, please, talking about a powerful
and beautiful way of operationalizing ambition. I am ambitious for
converse I want to have. I am ambitious for books
I want to read. I am ambitious for my own life.
Operationalizing ambition in a way that includes our lives and
(26:21):
our families and our health and our mental wellness, and
then setting metrics for success that include those same things.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
One thing I've done recently, just in case this is
the thing you want to do too, can really help
me is every time I get a letter from a
listener over the last couple of years, the ones that
really are so beautiful and meaningful and that you're just like, Wow,
how did I earn this trust from you? I mean,
it's such an honor, right, So I've been screencapping them,
and I recently created an album in my photos app
(26:53):
which is called Slight Change Love Letters. So on a
rainy day where I feel low morale, go to the album,
remind yourself, reorient yourself, reground yourself and what really matters
and is actually like all of these tangible lives that
have been improved by the work that you do, and
that's just going to have to be enough. That's going
(27:14):
to have to be what matters, and it's all that matters. Yeah,
and oh okay, let me just share this with you,
the interview that you did with me on Dare to Lead. Yes,
I heard from a woman who said, I heard your
conversation with Brene, and I've been trying to reckon with
the loss of my nineteen year old son to a
(27:35):
drug overdose, and that conversation that you had with Brene
unlocked healing for me.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
M I mean that woman that that story, that story
is kind of the summary of our entire conversation in
my heart, Maya, because that story wasn't like, oh, you
and Brene are such badasses and y'all are rock stars
and y'all are the best and better than everyone. It
was you had a conversation that was intimate and hard,
(28:04):
and that specific conversation unlocked something in my grieving process
about my child who died. It wasn't the avatar creation.
It was you said something that helped me heal. And
it's not about celebrity, and it's not about fame, and
it's not about who we are as people flawed imperfect,
(28:29):
messy learners. It's about trying to put good work into
the world.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Every time I talk to.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You, I learned things, and I freaking love how your
mind and your heart work, and I love how they
work together.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
It's a really unique and special thing that I know
you work hard at.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I really appreciate that. And I've found today just so
lovely to talk to a kindred spirit.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Same.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you want to
listen to my episode with Brene on dare to Lead,
check out the link in our show notes. And if
you enjoyed this conversation, we on the Slight Change team
would be so grateful if you shared the episode with
someone you know, maybe it's someone who's finding their own
identity shifting lately. It helps us get out the words
(29:41):
so we can keep making more episodes for you. We'll
be back in just a few weeks with a new
season of A Slight Change of Plans. See you then.
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
(30:02):
produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes
our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan,
our senior producer Trisha Bobida and our engineer Eric o'kwang.
Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith
helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
(30:22):
a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to
everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to
Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans
on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.
Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers, I've got a special guest for
you this week, Brenee Brown. You may have heard Brene's
(00:36):
ted talk, The Power of Vulnerability. It's been viewed more
than sixty four million times. She's a social science professor
at the University of Houston and is best known for
her research on complex emotions like shame and vulnerability. She's
also the best selling author of books like Braving the
Wilderness and Atlas of the Heart. A few years ago,
(00:59):
I was a guest on her podcast, Dare to Lead.
We talked about cultivating courage and the face of change
and how change can affect our identities. And so today
I wanted to continue that conversation and talk a bit
more about identity, how we can find ourselves picking up
and holding on to different ones over the course of
our lives. Brenee and I discussed a few identities that
(01:21):
she holds particularly close. Recovering, perfectionist, reluctant public figure, partner
to her husband, and parent to two kids. We began
our conversation talking about one of her earliest identities, big sister.
She says her role as big sister really started to
take shape when she was around eight years old.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
In my family, there was a very fine line between
older sister and co parent.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I think those.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Identities grew together in an inextricably connected way, for better
and worse. My parents, like many of our parents, really
had no idea what they were doing, and they were
doing the best they could. They both came from a
(02:14):
ton of trauma, and so very early on, my job
was to maintain as much stability as possible in a
very tumultuous household.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
In the context of young Brune, did that look like
emotional support?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
It's a tough question. I think that identity of.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Older sister, co parent protector grew in harmony with another
identity that's really profoundly still who I am, which is patternfinder.
I could understand very quickly what comment between my parents
or someone else that was maybe at the house.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Would unwind in a way that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Would make things tenuous and possibly dangerous. I think I
was always kind of of running around sorting things, calming
things down, intervening, making sure everything was as okay as
it could be, to prevent some kind of blow up.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I love this idea of patternfinder. I think in so
many ways we're kindred spirits in that way. I mean, oh,
I don't know. Yeah, Like, even though I was the
youngest of four, I was so emotionally attuned to dynamics
and was trying to like implicitly or explicitly negotiate things,
and it was almost impossible for me to ever turn
(03:44):
that switch.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Off one hundred percent. I actually.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Have spent probably twenty years of my life trying to
do work to turn that off. I am I am
always assessing, and I very quickly can see how behavior, emotion,
and cognition are connected in people. I mean my family
(04:09):
growing up, if someone made a joke, everyone would laugh
and I would just kind of like uh. And I
could see if the exact same joke was made but
the context was different, there is potentially going to be
a screaming match or potential violence just based on the
context of it happening. And it explains a lot about me,
(04:32):
which is I was not fun. I was the protector
or the protector in waiting. It's kind of like that
movie where the where the kids like I see dead people.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, yeah, sixth sense yeah yeah, y yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It's kind of like I see when shit's getting ready
to go down. Yeah, absolutely, And I don't intervene anymore.
But I also, you know, want to high tail it
out of there and take the people I love with me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
How do you see your relationship as protector patterns secret
big sister having evolved over time? So, now that you're
in adulthood and you're outside of the immediately threatening environment,
let's say, a family life, how has that role changed
for you, if at all. I mean, it still might
have those same tones. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I think when you come from kind of an eggshell environment,
there's a hyper vigilance around what's going to cause the
response that's dangerous, either verbally, emotionally, or maybe even physically.
I have done and am doing a lot of personal
work around it, and continue to do it. I think
my sisters and I call each other out on it.
(05:47):
One of my sisters will say, hey, hey, hey, we
know how to handle we're grown up too now, and
we also think we can do some of this way
better than you can do it, So back off, call
your therapist, sit down, you know.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And so I'm like, Okay, yeah, that's great because I can't.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah yeah, yeah, what a wonderful evolution. I'd love to
hop to the next identity lily pad if you will,
and talk about perfectionism. So yet another one that we
share in common, Vernee, where do you think the roots
of your perfectionism emerged? So let's take genes off the table.
So let's say you know, we both have a genetic
(06:22):
predisposition towards this, but environmentally, what do you think might
have led to that?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I from an early age, as the oldest, as the protector,
I saw and experienced a link between my loveability and
how good I was, and I needed to be morally
(06:47):
ethically performatively, you know, like in every dimension good equated
to love ability.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And was this love from your parents or just in
general from all the adults in your life?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think it was from all the adults. I think
there was this collection of moments that just continue to
provide data piece after data piece after data piece, you know,
like dependability, sacrifice, manners, grades, a million pieces of data
(07:25):
that reinforce this idea that good is lovable and not
good is not lovable.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is there a time you remember where you actively wished
you were not a perfectionist, where you felt it's sabotaging
some aspect of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I guess one of the things that's dawning on me
as we're having this conversation right now, is the idea
of perfectionism being what will other people think? I am
not as vulnerable to that as I used to be.
Where I am still vulnerable is when people say you're
(08:13):
not a good person. That I have to work on
that to not be crippling. So when I do something
that people disagree with, or I have a position that
people disagree with and they attribute that to what they
think they know about me, that can be really, really
painful for me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And how do you engage with that pain? What's your response?
Because surely it's not just changing your position, right, you
have a set of values, and so I wonder when
you run up against that tension, but appeasing that audience
by changing your point of view isn't on the table.
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I try to always keep curiosity in learning on the table.
I try to extend the same generosity to other people
that I'd want extended to me. I try to take
in what's learnable and then what's mean spirited or hateful.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
But I think.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I don't know how to do it really well. To
be honest with you, I don't have a solution there.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
No, and I'm with you girl. So yeah, there was
an experience that I had at work where because of
a misunderstanding, I felt like a colleague of mine thought
I wasn't a good person and she wouldn't engage with
me on the topic. So I never had the opportunity
to conflict resolve. And this was one of the most
(09:39):
maddening experiences for me because I am not prideful. I
will come to every table admit where I went wrong
or what my weaknesses are. But the fact she wasn't
willing to engage brene put me into this frantic state
of panic, like I will never get resolution here. I
will never be able to prove to this person that
I'm actually good and I didn't mean any harm. And
I don't know what it is she even is upset
(10:00):
with me about. And the only thing I had in
that moment to work with was my own brain, because
I had no ability to communicate with her. So I
had to find a way to change my own perception,
and so I visualized what it meant for her to
maybe think that I was a bad person, And in
my head, the visual was there are these electrical signals
(10:22):
in her brain that occasionally occur where these neurons fire
and say I don't like Maya, okay, and it's fleeting,
and like, I'm not a narcisst I know it's having
very infrequently, but all it is is just this transient
electrical signal, and we pump so much air into this
(10:43):
feeling of what other people think of us as this
massive concept, and for some reason, that visual took the
air out of it. It like deflated that balloon. It
took the power away from her. I was like, Okay,
so I'm going to walk around this world and there's
going to be humans who have that neural activity that
(11:03):
I don't agree with Maya. I don't like Maya. I
think Maya's XYZ. And maybe that's a world that I
can comfortably live in and be happy in and find
peace in anyway. I don't know if that's helpful, but
it's just it's taken some of the emotional punch out
of this feeling of someone not liking you or not
approving of you.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
God, I'm like mesmerized, I'm hanging on every word. I
just think it's so right sizing that it's a fleeting
thought in the mind of a single person that we
have no control over.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean, it makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
And the disproportionate amount of energy we spend compared to
the fleeting littles exactly mine.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You would have thought I was getting my PhD in
this woman during that period of time, I was like
ninety percent of my brain power was like how do
I get her to not be mad at me? And
I don't even know why she's mad? You know, I
put so much mental labor into trying to solve this
problem that was unsolvable. Yeah, I meanside though, by the
way it just takes on this point, as you might think, well,
then every positive thought people have about me is transient too.
(12:15):
But I actually think it's good to think of the
positive stuff as transient as well. I mean, because otherwise
you can over index on that, you can attach so
much value and self worth to that and then suddenly
collapses and you don't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I absolutely and the positive vilance is much more scary
for me than the negative personally. To be honest with you,
I don't like that party there very much.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, SayMore. I'm so curious, especially as because you're such
a public figure and so I'm so curious to know
how that intersects.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, I'll go back to Braving the Wilderness. When I
wrote that book, i shared my support for Black Lives
Matter and why I thought it was a really important
movement that we should be paying attention to. And it
was the first time I experienced people walking out of
(13:10):
event centers and places during my book tour talks specifically
around that issue, like getting up in the middle of
like what I'm talking, people said they felt personally betrayed
by me and disappointed in me because my work had
meant so much to them and overcoming hard things the
(13:33):
death of a child or you know, their own eating disorder,
their divorce, or you know, just like really hard things,
And then how could I betray them by having an
opinion a political belief that was so far from their own.
And what I realized in that moment is that's a
(13:53):
result of people projecting on me who they need me
to be. Does that make sense to you at all?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, that's that is so interesting because basically, they they
found your work meaningful, therapy, resonant. It's helped them during
a hard time, and obviously they have some fraction of
an understanding of who you are. Right, they're consuming a
book you've written, and what you're saying is they're essentially
filling in all the gaps in their knowledge of who
(14:22):
you are with an idealized version of you that meets
their criteria.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I remember the first time I became aware of it.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, I was telling a story and I was like, oh,
I was so mad. I was flipping this driver off
underneath that, you know, underneath the steering wall where they
couldn't see me. And someone said, you really actually don't
sound very wholehearted at all.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And I was like what.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And they're like, I thought you were all about wholeheartedness,
and I was like, I think I'm about deep, flawed, messy, lovable,
amazing humanity like I, you know, And so I'm not
going to be a good avatar for you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Looking for a messy, complicated, deeply flawed person.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
More of my conversation with Brene after the break. We'll
be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
One identity Brene Brown has had for a long time
(15:37):
is partner to her husband Steve. They've been together for decades.
I wanted to know more about how this identity has
evolved over time because I'm a hopeless romantic and I
also watch crappy TV like The Bachelor. Just indulge me
for indulgent for a moment.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
This I love about you.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean, there's so many things to love about you,
but this is one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I may or may not have attended the live taping
of After the Final Rows in LA for The Bachelor,
So maybe I don't know. Did I miss a work
dated that. I don't know?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Okay, I don't know either. We will never know, actually.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Like who would do that? I mean, wow, what a
wait of time? Right? Yeah? Okay, so just indulge me
for a second. And I would love to hear about
falling in love with Steve, Like when did you know
that you wanted to marry him? And what was what
were the traits that he exhibited that made you think, Okay,
I think this guy. I could make it work with
this guy.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean I the first time I met him, I
went home and told my roommate, I think I'm going
to marry this guy.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
And we were young.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We were lifeguards in love at a pool over the summer.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And how old were you?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
God?
Speaker 4 (16:46):
We were.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Eighteen and twenty one, and so we made mixtapes and.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
We we like it was like.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, and you know, and he comes from a lot
of hard family stuff too, and he was the first
person that we talked about that. And then we dated
off and on for seven years and got married and
we've been married now.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It'll be thirty years in June.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Wow, COVID the last couple of years has been the
hardest season of our marriage, for sure. I think we
both believe it's supposed to be hard as hell.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Can you tell me about why COVID in particular was
so hard.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are.
I think, you know, he's a pediatrician. I'm trying to
keep a business afloat. My mom had just been diagnosed
with rapid onset dementia, and then we tried to get
snink my mom out of her assisted living facility, like
in the hour before it shut down, where we couldn't
get in everybody's living together. It was just like it
(17:54):
was what everybody was going through in the world, you know,
And we had resources and access to things that the
vast majority of people didn't have, and we were still
just barely holding on and we did not have any
bandwidth for each other or anything but what was in
front of us to accomplish that day. And that's the
(18:14):
conditions under which things, you know, fall apart. So it
was a rebuild. And we're also in a weird season
of our lives. Our youngest is going to college. There's
a real like, hi, and Brene, nice to meet you.
I'm Steve, nice to meet you. It's a season on
it in its own.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah. You know, you had mentioned that you and Steve
both believe that marriage is supposed to be hard as hell,
and I'm wondering if you can unpack that for me.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So I think expecting it to be hard, expecting it
to be work, it's just not two people hanging out
being themselves. There's like that third entity that is your
relationship that very few of us saw modeled how to
build it in a way that we want to be
in it. My parents are divorced, Steve's parents are divorced.
(19:01):
See's parents are divorced, remarried, were married, divorced. My parents divorce,
We married divorced, you know, like, and so we knew
what we didn't want it to be and we also
just knew it was going to be a ton of work.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I've done a lot of hard.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Shit in my life, nothing compares to how hard this is.
And so I think that having kids shocked to the system,
Balancing careers shock to the system, navigating different career trajectories
(19:36):
and ambitions, death, illness shocks to the system. I mean,
I think I heard Paul Newman saying the reason why
his marriage lasted so long is neither one of them
wanted to get a divorce at.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
The same time. And I think that's so funny and true.
But I think very few of us know how to.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Fight well, talk about our feelings a way where we
can stay curious with each other and not defensive.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I mean, I'm still learning that stuff, Like we're still
trying to.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Get better, and I mean, hey, the jury still out,
I would you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot
of shit can go bad really fast. But to this point,
we were able to coordinate our individual growth inside of
our partnership.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, it is. So I'm just reflecting this moment. It's
hearkening back to twenty sixteen when my husband Jimmy and
I got married, and I remember writing our vows, and
at the end it was something like, you know, with
all these people surrounding us who love us so dearly,
you know, I feel that we can beat anything. And
then I like took my pen and I was like,
I don't believe that there are so many things that
(20:52):
could break us, Like, yeah, I have the humility to
know all the many things that could break us. And
so I remember striking that out and writing instead, the
odds are in our favor, which was such a maya
thing to put in a vows and made perfect sense
to Jimmy and probably made it more romantic from his perspective.
But it's so awesome.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's so statistically, I think the odds are good.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, the odds are good. So that was kind of
acknowledging what you've been saying this whole time, which is
things can get really really hard. Yeah, as you think
to the future, is there an identity that you would
love to lay claim to that you would love to
have but you haven't yet? God Lee, Sorry, that's a toughie.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
No, it's so good.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I think the identity that I have right now that
I can't wait to see where it goes is two
have a my guess our mom and partner. I I
there's so much better sweetness in being a mom, because
the whole gig is such a shit show because you're
(22:03):
just really trying to help them leave you, and so
that's like tough.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But of course, yeah, yeah, But I will say that
I have.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Loved being the mom of adult children as much as
I loved you know, four year olds and eight year
olds and twelve year olds and fifteen year olds and toddlers.
And it's just watching my kids figure out who they
want to be and how they want to contribute to
(22:33):
the world and navigate their own partnerships and friendships is
just such a privilege to get to do and it's
so fun, and so I'm excited to continue that role
and just to see how it plays out and to continue,
you know, the privilege of getting to be a part
of their lives. And I think also I'm very curious
(22:54):
and interested in committed to figuring out how Steve and
I do this next season. And I'll be curious to
see what I want to do with my career and
what I won't want to do anymore. And I have
some some usual some suspects on the list of what
I don't want to do anymore and some suspects on
the list of what I might want to do. I
(23:14):
think getting off social for a year was really helpful
because I do think there is the leading of who
you are for the avatar.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Of who you are.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, definitely a.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Lot of the systems that we thought would be good
around this or broken and the algorithms are set the
wrong way.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Do you agree, yes?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Don't know what the answer is. I don't know how
to build community have impact. Yeah, in a world that's
full of so much pain and projection.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I don't know what the experience of your advantage point is.
I only have my own. But I can see myself
tempering classic ambition in this space because I'm afraid of
it because it just.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Say that again, because it seems like really important. I
really want to understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So I want my ideas to reach as many people
as possible. What I found myself resisting in the recent
online climate is more followers, more likes, more downloads, more this,
more that, because I don't actually know if that's a
net good anymore, And so then what becomes the north star? Like,
(24:41):
what is my goal? I mean, it's meaningful connection with
individual people, right, how does that scale? And the current
social media environment is so unappealing to me because of
what it incentivizes. But at the same time, I spent
a lot of time doing a lot of thoughtful work.
I want the conversations on the show to be widely heard.
(25:01):
I want it in as many earbudds as possible. So like,
there's a tension there for me and I just don't
know what the answers are.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's just such a beautiful framing of the question. I
one of the questions that I'm asking myself based on
what you just said, is how do you operationalize ambition?
How do you set metrics for success in the current
milieu that we live in.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So, like, one example of this is that I know
that a slight change of plans would quote perform better
if I did more episodes a year. This is a
situation where I will only produce high quality content if
I have a life that I live outside of this world,
because otherwise I'm not living enough of life to be
(25:47):
interesting or to learn to consume other people's content, to
read books and just be a better person.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
But let's but let's can I just could you just
indulge me for a second, please, talking about a powerful
and beautiful way of operationalizing ambition. I am ambitious for
converse I want to have. I am ambitious for books
I want to read. I am ambitious for my own life.
Operationalizing ambition in a way that includes our lives and
(26:21):
our families and our health and our mental wellness, and
then setting metrics for success that include those same things.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
One thing I've done recently, just in case this is
the thing you want to do too, can really help
me is every time I get a letter from a
listener over the last couple of years, the ones that
really are so beautiful and meaningful and that you're just like, Wow,
how did I earn this trust from you? I mean,
it's such an honor, right, So I've been screencapping them,
and I recently created an album in my photos app
(26:53):
which is called Slight Change Love Letters. So on a
rainy day where I feel low morale, go to the album,
remind yourself, reorient yourself, reground yourself and what really matters
and is actually like all of these tangible lives that
have been improved by the work that you do, and
that's just going to have to be enough. That's going
(27:14):
to have to be what matters, and it's all that matters. Yeah,
and oh okay, let me just share this with you,
the interview that you did with me on Dare to Lead. Yes,
I heard from a woman who said, I heard your
conversation with Brene, and I've been trying to reckon with
the loss of my nineteen year old son to a
(27:35):
drug overdose, and that conversation that you had with Brene
unlocked healing for me.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
M I mean that woman that that story, that story
is kind of the summary of our entire conversation in
my heart, Maya, because that story wasn't like, oh, you
and Brene are such badasses and y'all are rock stars
and y'all are the best and better than everyone. It
was you had a conversation that was intimate and hard,
(28:04):
and that specific conversation unlocked something in my grieving process
about my child who died. It wasn't the avatar creation.
It was you said something that helped me heal. And
it's not about celebrity, and it's not about fame, and
it's not about who we are as people flawed imperfect,
(28:29):
messy learners. It's about trying to put good work into
the world.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Every time I talk to.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You, I learned things, and I freaking love how your
mind and your heart work, and I love how they
work together.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
It's a really unique and special thing that I know
you work hard at.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I really appreciate that. And I've found today just so
lovely to talk to a kindred spirit.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Same.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you want to
listen to my episode with Brene on dare to Lead,
check out the link in our show notes. And if
you enjoyed this conversation, we on the Slight Change team
would be so grateful if you shared the episode with
someone you know, maybe it's someone who's finding their own
identity shifting lately. It helps us get out the words
(29:41):
so we can keep making more episodes for you. We'll
be back in just a few weeks with a new
season of A Slight Change of Plans. See you then.
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
(30:02):
produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes
our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan,
our senior producer Trisha Bobida and our engineer Eric o'kwang.
Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith
helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
(30:22):
a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to
everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to
Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans
on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.