August 26, 2024 • 45 mins
Sometimes, even when things go precisely as you hoped they would, change hurts. Writer Kelly Corrigan talks to Maya about wrestling with the reality that her daughters' childhood was ending, and that her role as their parent had to transition, too. In this conversation from the archives, Maya and Kelly reckon with the question of what parents and children owe each other.
For more on Kelly, check out her podcast, "Kelly Corrigan Wonders" and her PBS show, "Tell Me More."
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I know exactly what she ate, I know what she wore,
I know who she talked to, I know what words
she can use, I know what letters she can write,
I know what books she's read. Like there's a moment there,
and that moment lasts for several years where you actually
do know every single input in another person's life.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also
knew this would change that as her daughters got older
and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less
about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable,
she still felt a title wave of emotions when it
actually happened.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment that like, this
is how it goes, this is the relationship, this is
the job, and the job is more or less done.
And I had a lot of conversations with a lot
of friends about like, can you believe this is the
way the story goes? Wow? Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly
according to plan and still left her reeling I'm maya
shunker and this is a slight change of plans A
show about who we are and who we become in
(01:55):
the face of the big change. Adolescence is a time
of incredible change for kids and the people who care
for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers,
(02:18):
our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence.
While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be
pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these
kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as
a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards
(02:39):
of raising children, and her memoir The Middle Place touches
on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children.
She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, where she
often talks about parenthood and family life, like her conversation
with writer Susan Orlean on empty Nesting. Parenthood has been
(02:59):
on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my
parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, and I are
wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, will still try
and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big
questions for me, like what do a parent and child
owe each other, and how does this relationship evolve over time.
(03:20):
Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions.
You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation.
My parents are immigrants and they raise my three siblings
and me with a mixture of Indian and American values,
which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless
of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable
(03:41):
it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the
first place. Okay, now onto my conversation with Kelly. I
started by asking her why she wanted to have kids.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where
it was like, oh, I definitely want to be a mother.
I don't think I ever had a change of heart.
It was just totally woven in from the jump. And
I'm not a particularly sweet person, Like I wouldn't say
that I'm huge, nice or patient. I'm not a good cook,
(04:14):
I always run late, I forget a lot of things.
I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic
element to parenting that I would give myself like a
d So it wasn't that I thought I was going
to be particularly good at it in those superficial ways
of like managing a family. But what I wanted, what
(04:36):
I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of,
was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary,
Like there is not in my life experience comparable relationships
outside of the family frame.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to figure
out what that word means to you in this context.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside
of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner,
and in the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees,
it's so high you have bug bites up and down
your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers
and I would walk down the hall and go to
sleep on my parents' floor, so that when we woke
(05:21):
up every day in the summer, I'd have like GT's
foot in my face and Booker's foot in my belly,
and like we were just kind of in there together.
I love that, And I loved that we didn't ever
get central air conditioning. I loved it that that was
the only way was to share this air together all
night long and breathe all over each other, and you know,
people are bourbon and farting, and it's kind of hilarious
(05:45):
because you can only do it with so few people. Yeah,
you know, anything that you can only do with like
a handful of people your whole life, Like, that's just
got to be significant.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I so resonate with this intimacy concept, and I think
until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component
of just being present with one another in all of
these bland moments that are totally lacking in signify, except
in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of
familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when
we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the
(06:19):
kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection
and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm
just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade,
my family of six we went on a cruise and
it was like the most exciting thing that my family
was ever to do. We went on one of these
like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents treated
(06:40):
themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room
and us. Four kids were put into this little box
with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my
favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't
close enough in that little box together, because I just
found it intoxicating to be so close to these people
(07:02):
who I loved.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire,
And I'm curious to know whether in the early years
your expectations of mom lined up with reality.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So I mean it went off the rails fairly quickly
because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I
got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy,
and so everything was up in the air. I did surgery,
then I did another surgery that I had my ovaries removed.
Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy, and
then it was like really finally over about maybe eighteen
(07:38):
months after it started. And then you have to come
all the way back down into your life again. And
then it did start to feel like this is what
I wanted in particular. Two things. One is my husband
Edward got up super early. He left at six o'clock
and then at six ' oh one when the door closed,
(07:59):
Claire would pad over and jump in on one side,
and at six point thirty Georgia would pad over and
get in on the other side. And there was nowhere
we had to be, and they were just on me.
And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I
know this will end. This is what I wanted, this
is what I didn't want to miss right now, this
(08:19):
feeling I had no pressures on me, they had no preschool,
and oh god, it was so great. And then the
other thing is all these super surprising moments, like a
crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying,
what is this And I was like, oh my god,
(08:41):
it's your last name. That's your last name, and she
was like, what's a last name. I'm like, oh my god,
this is I just could not have seen this coming, Like,
of course someone has to tell you that there's such
a thing as a last name, and this is what
yours is, and this is what the letters are, and
this is the order you write them in, and this
is how you do it. And so I remember writing
(09:02):
in my journal that night I taught Georgia her last name.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Today, you wrote in the New York Time that before
our children become themselves, when they are more physical than
intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The
way he sits like his dad, the furrow of her
brow so much like her mom's, her flat feet, his
luscious eyelashes just like grandpa's. I wonder, how did you
(09:29):
quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating,
that sort of looks like she's angry, and it is
exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this
little knot in her brow is Edward's.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, I mean,
it runs deeper than their physical traits. It seems like,
I mean, I really want to understand when you say
we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that for me
and what that means. What does it mean to claim children?
(10:12):
And like, what does that do to our own psychology
as parents?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, I think it's super dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded,
and I think it's probably really common. I remember the
first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in
San Diego and we pulled over and she ran straight
for the water, and then instantly like, instead of letting
that just be hers, it was like, ah, she's just
(10:38):
like you, Edward, she's a swimmer, and it's like, well,
or she's just her and she's having a great moment.
And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because
we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably
(10:58):
misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and
decide without even knowing we're doing it. But this is
because blank like either it's because you are the way
you are, your husband is the way they are, they're
your grandparents, something about their sibling or some moment that
(11:21):
you observed, and so you're always like deconstructing your kid's
behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to
anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, like we are dying
to understand. We are eager to make sense of our
(11:43):
children's moods and their behaviors and what they do that's
problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, and what they
do that's spectacular that we can't wait to tell our
friends they did, and kind of attribute that to people,
because like, who wants to say, I don't know, Yeah,
(12:06):
I don't know why she does that. Yeah, it's the
very first thing you do is try to figure out why.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly
that your kids were doing things or learning things that
you were not a part of.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her
name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and
Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care
of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's
house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable,
and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them
little cookies and taking them out for a swim and whatever.
(12:43):
All of this is sort of unknown to me. I'm
just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she
loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. And
fast forward like a year and a half. We're on
a little family walk and this woman pulled over in
her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia,
(13:03):
And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid?
There is no way that she could know someone that
I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she
doesn't even know words. I didn't tell her, Like I'm
doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know
what she wore, I know who she talked to, I
know what words she can use, I know what letters
(13:25):
she can write, I know what books she's read. And
this is probably why it's so hard to pull your
hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and
that moment lasts for several years where you actually do
know every single input in another person's life because you're involved,
you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You're talking about the early years, like the first few years, the.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia,
and I was like, this is so weird. And I
was like, Hi, I'm Georgia's mom. And I remember hearing
myself say I'm Georgia's mom and thinking, oh, this is
this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning
of me in the world as just Georgia's mom.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah. And I'm assuming as your girls got older that
you got more and more of these examples of how
their lives were growing independently of yours.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Well. I mean, it's very interesting to be told what
your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers,
And there's often moments of surprise there, so you're either
like waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions.
But if you're doing a good job, if you really
have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you
(14:37):
think I didn't know that about her. I didn't know
she loved math, or in the reverse. I remember this
teacher of Georgie's in high school said George is like
a great science student, like she understands everything. And I
said to Georgia, God, do you love science? And she said,
oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science.
And I was like, oh right. Again, there's this like
(15:00):
fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain
is like ough A plus B equal C, and she's like, no,
apos B equals D.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed
to you that you either didn't know something about your
daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them
was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Sometimes thrilling, sometimes it was a little moment of awe,
like this is cool, like watching a great movie or
reading a great book when you're surprised. Yeah, and sometimes
it was maddening because I was sure that I was
right and the person was wrong, and then they had
some influence in their life and I didn't want that.
Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think
(15:51):
there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving.
It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they
get older.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, when it came to their transition to college. And
I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because,
like you said, when when your kids are living under
your roof, even if they don't share everything with you,
you still get so much access to their lives just
through your exposure, right, Like you might see them interact
with their friends after school, or you might know their
(16:21):
or you will know their calendar of activities because you're
doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least
have this illusion that you have access to a large
chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional
content of their lives is being withheld from you, And
so at some point you had to deal with physically
(16:41):
separating from your kids when they went off to school.
And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for
me of what it was like to drop your younger
daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before,
and when I was taking her the night before, we
had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever.
And she goes tomorrow, when you got.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Me off, know me, just know me, know who I
am and what my preferences are. That's basically what she was.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Saying, exactly, put me first. And I was like, I
get it. You don't want a scene, you don't want tears,
you don't want me talking to people. Just take the
stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and
get out of there. And I was like, I got this.
I can do this, And I think I did all right.
I mean you'd have to ask her, but I think
I did fine. So fast forward two years. I had
(17:39):
to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is
also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like
our snotty, weeping, shaking moment. Can't even talk about it.
Now in the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like,
(18:03):
can I just let this all out? And basically what
I was feeling is this is the part of life
that I was looking forward to the most, and today
is the end of it. And there will be great things,
(18:24):
of course, so much good work to do, so many
people to love and help I get it. But this
is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever.
We're never going back. And would you just mind if
I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes
and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in
(18:45):
that van and we'll go load up your room and
I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and
so they just held her and then we went. It
went so fast like it you know, it's because the car,
like the blinkers are on. Yeah, and when you pull up,
there's a nice person with a clipboard and they're like, hi,
(19:05):
you know, you're in room three eighteen and you have
thirty eight minutes to move this car. And so the
blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle
and you're going up and down the stairs and then
it's over and I was like bye, and honestly, like,
I know, I probably sound like a crazy person, but
I knew what was happening, and I was right. It
(19:27):
is different. It is over, like that part is over
and it's fine, like I'm gonna have a great forty years.
But there's no denying that, like the big page has
been turned and I'm something else now. To them, I'm
something different. I mean, you stand around with a bunch
of moms on the playground and someone says their mom's
(19:52):
coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how long
she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind of
where you end up, is that you're a slightly like
I love her, but like, yeah, three nights. That's where
this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but
(20:15):
feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality,
and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging
that this is real.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change
of plans. When Kelly Corgan's daughters moved away to college,
she was eager to stay involved in their lives, but
her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment
(20:51):
and figuring things out for themselves, and so when Kelly
did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses
into their lives.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
This is when the rubber hits the road, I think,
is when your kid moves out and you don't have
eyes on them anymore, so you don't have a way
to know their life and their moods and their well being.
You're not able to assess their well being with your
own eyes. You can't hear the tone of their voice,
you can't see their posture, you can't see whether they're
eating or not eating, whether they went for a run
(21:20):
or stayed in bed. It's like a big black box
and all you have are these tiny conversations where at
like four to twelve on Tuesday, they might be in
a great mood, and at four thirty on Tuesday, long
after the call is over, something horrible happens. But until
you talk to them again, you're still in four twelve
Tuesday mode, where you're like and people ask all the time.
(21:42):
Wherever you go, people say how are your kids? And
whatever they've told you on four to twelve on Tuesday,
you're like, she's great, she's awesome. And conversely, if you
catch them on nine am on Saturday morning and they're terrible.
Then they are terrible until the next time you talk
to them and hear the spark back in their voice.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
When it came to the transition to college, one thing
that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were given guidance
by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, now's
your time to back the f off right, Like there's
something like that. Tell me more about that. That was
so interesting to me and so shocking and like not
at all what happened, for example, when I was off
(22:22):
to college. If no one is even thinking through this
lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, yeah. So Claire goes to University of Virginia and
the day of drop off, there was a letter sent
to all the parents of the freshman class and it
said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, and then
it said, here's a note from our one of the
people that works in our counseling office on campus. It
(22:49):
is not okay for you to be texting your kid
multiple times every day. The best thing you could do
for them is to stand back a little bit and
let them get into some kind of groove. Because as
soon as you say to somebody, how's it going, the
true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's going
(23:09):
to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going.
As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this.
But I feel like once you label something that it
takes on greater meaning, Like that language and thoughts and
feelings are all kind of linked in this way that
if she's if I make her say it's good, it's bad,
(23:30):
I like it, I don't like it. How's your roommate
she's okay, Then all of a sudden, that framing takes
on added power to define what happens next. And that's
such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, leave
your kids alone, let them drive. If they want to
contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to
(23:51):
your kid within like sixty seconds.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, I'm just laughing at this moment. Thinking back to
when I felt this transition. I think it was in
college at some point where you know, my parents were
so available to me when I was in high school
and in college, I went to college close by to
where they lived, so i'd still see them a bunch,
But I remember I would call my mom or dad
and they were just too busy for me. My Mom's like,
I'm sorry, I'm helping people get green cards to study
(24:17):
in this country. And my dad's like, I'm in the
middle of the physics equation, you know. And I just
remember thinking it was actually amazing in that moment to
feel like a little bit of that lifeline was cut off,
because it meant that I was on my own a bit, right,
and I just had to kind of figure stuff out myself.
And I never really thought about that until this moment,
(24:38):
And now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for
my development, that they had their own thing.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Oh, it's phenomenal, And this is a huge new thing
for me that I'm trying to get my head around
right this second, Like something new is beginning now and
I can make it great. Like I'm totally I love Edward,
I love my work. We're starting new things. I love novelty.
I'm learning, like everything I know how to put this
together in a way that I can be happy and
(25:05):
productive and useful. That doesn't mean that's something didn't end.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
To articulate what ended writer or what felt so stark
about the move away from home or just maybe their adolescence.
It was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what
you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, I mean first I was grieving knowing them in
the way that you know someone who lives in your house,
like you're a kid in college or the rest of
their life, Like how much does your mom know about
you right now? How much does my mom know about
me right now? Not as much as she did when
(25:45):
I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is?
He writes this thing called wait but why Yeah, of course.
So he did this thing where it was like this
little dot scale of how many days you have with
your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five,
a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I
(26:06):
had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When
Georgia's eighteen, I have thirty five days with her. When
George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When George's forty,
I have five days with her, like five days in
a year, like not that many. So I guess I
(26:28):
was just grieving, like this is what's going to happen?
Like this is the way this is. And it's so
weird to me that something that was so consuming for
me as a kid, it's like all I thought about.
And then when it started happening, like when I met
Edward and fell in love and got married and then
we got pregnant, and we got pregnant again, I thought,
(26:49):
this is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have
any big, really specific visions about what happens now. So
it wasn't like I was like moving into this awesome
thing that I had been anticipating my whole life. It
was like, oh God, this is the part where like
nobody really knows what they're doing and how long they
should do it for. And you know, like this part
(27:11):
is so ambiguous compared to you know, in the first
stage of your life, you're someone's kid, and then if
you become a parent, then you do that for the
next stage, and then the next stage is like what now,
this is a time to like move your focus. It's
like in my mind at night when I wake up,
(27:33):
I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating
my field of vision away from them to the people
in my life right now who can make use of
me I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work.
I have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast.
We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript
(27:55):
and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And
it's still not enough to get them out of my
field of vision, like they're still right there. I still
have to like sweep them away and like almost like
burn my head and leave them in their own little
box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something
(28:16):
I will never know, right. It's not like I'm gonna
get the play by play later where they're like, here's
what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm not
gonna know. It's none of my business, honestly, and if
I'm doing it right, I don't even want to know.
Like that's where I'm trying to get to. And so
the way I do it is just like this little
exercise where it's like they're full in the frame. I
(28:38):
used to be a photographer, So if you can imagine,
like you're holding your camera to your eye and you're
filling the frame with your kids, and then you just
rotate and you put somebody else in the center of
the frame. You put your work. You put somebody you
love who needs some help. You put somebody who makes
you feel useful, you put some volunteer activity, you put
your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, along the way as part of this long journey
right through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're
own adults going off into the world, were you ever
tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to
protect yourself from getting hurt?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I mean, probably, like like a shooting star kind of thought.
But like the minute you see them on your phone,
you're like, hey, how are you? Like, you know, the
night before you're like, I got a stop. This is crazy,
you know, I'm like losing my mind here. And then
it's like it's like being in a romance a little bit. Yeah.
I mean, Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Having a teenage daughter is like having an office crush,
because you just like always like you're thinking about them
a lot more than they're thinking about you, and you
just like go up to their door and you're like
a bunch of us are going to eat dinner.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play
it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be
like super busy, So I totally get yeah, if you
can't come, but like, yeeah.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I've definitely like on a bag day when I feel
like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm messing it up,
I'm making it harder for them, I'm putting rocks in
their backpack in some way that I'm newly aware of.
And then you kind of like flooded with shame and defensiveness.
And then I always think the same thought, which is
I'm going to go to Europe and live there for
(30:28):
five years and leave you alone and let you do
your individuating and I'll see you, you know, when you're
twenty eight, and it'll be great, Like you don't need
me and I'm just making trouble and I got to
avert my gaze. So anyway, yes, my instinct is like
get out of the way. But I have to get
(30:49):
out of the way in this very dramatic move where
I'm like, I can't talk to you for five years.
I go grow up and I'll take care of myself.
And you know, it's so stupid, You're.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because I'm
actually a really good hang. Yeah, that's right, that's right,
that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off.
I do find that, ye, I do find sometimes that
I'm like, you know, people find like what I have
to say to be useful, Like I you know, like
you're like, I have a TV show, Yeah, people like
(31:21):
tune in.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
You wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, you know. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.
And of course I don't have kids, so it's hard
for me to fully appreciate the relationship or what that
bond is like. But I could just imagine myself feeling
betrayed by the system, if that makes sense, Like wtf,
this is the arc, this is how things are supposed
(31:44):
to play out, And now here I am with my
heart just broken into pieces and feeling like I don't
have the kind of intimacy that I had before with
my kids, and not because I don't want it. In fact,
I'm obsessed with them, Like I would just feel so
ticked off. Did you ever feel that way?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes? I feel I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment
that like, this is how it goes, this is the relationship,
this is the job, and the job is more or
less done. And now I'm here to enjoy them when
they happen to have time to enjoy me. Yeah, you know,
like can't get enough, don't need a thing. That's my motto.
(32:22):
It's like, can't get enough, don't need a thing. And
I you know, I had a lot of conversations with
a lot of mom friends about can you believe this
is the way the story goes?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Wow, Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Let's say that you're the organizer of the universe. You
get to decide for just one moment. Finally, let's enter
this natural Yeah, finally, I know, even waiting for this moment,
I'm giving it to you, girl.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if
we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would
the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How
would it have turned out on their way to college?
How would it have been different? And you're in control,
you're the design architect here.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
That the way it would be different is that we
would the parents would have some switch built into us
that flips at just the right moment, such that we
can totally let go and be thrilled by the release.
(33:37):
And I think some people have that. I mean, Edward,
my husband would not give you the same answers to
these questions, like he's delighted. He can't believe it. It's
just fantastic. It's great that they're on their own, it's
great they're independent. It's great that they don't need to
talk to us that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly,
And I admire him for that. I think he's probably right,
(33:59):
Like I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact,
I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it.
I just have a feeling that a lot of us
feel this way.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even from a cultural perspective,
I'm thinking about how different my own orientation is about
what children owe their parents or vice versa. Like my
parents aren't like, hey, is it okay if I text
your call? They will call me whenever the hell they want,
and the expectation is that I will pick up. So
that's a whole other thing, which is just societal expectations
within the Indian culture about what this relationship is like
(34:36):
and I'm just thinking in this moment, how curious is
it that your answer to my question wasn't well, that
my kids would just keep sharing their lives with me.
God damn it, that's what I really want. I want
them to keep sharing with me everything. And that's such
an interesting perspective that your answer was was an adjustment
on the parent side. It involved no adjustment to how
the kids development turns out or that's striving for independence.
(35:00):
So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece.
You just need to Yeah, ooh interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You know one thing that makes me super happy, and
I just noticed it because it happened yesterday, is when
I know that they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else,
I'm delighted and it really helps me let go. So
Georgia has this great friend named Nora, Claire has this
(35:26):
great friend named Emma. Those relationships really help me release
because I think, oh my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma,
whatever Georgia takes to Nora, she's going to get great advice.
They have great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations
that like, sure, in a perfect world, I'd love to
have that conversation. I'd love to be in on that.
(35:47):
I love a deep conversation. I mean, I love talking
to you, but it's not appropriate for me to be
the one in that conversation. What's perfect is for them
to have one great friend and have the two of
them kind of figuring it out together. And that's true
of both my girls, and that makes me really happy
and it really helps me let go.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
So intellectually I'm on board. I want to know how
you get your emotional side to catch up to that
realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for them to have
that friend and for it not to be me. How
do you because I'm just trying to think about okay,
like a parent's listening to this right now, being like, Kelly,
you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've convinced my rational
brain that this is how I ought to see things.
(36:32):
But oh my god, it's a blow to feel like
when they get broken up with I'm not the first
person they're calling. I'm not on their favorites list.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as you're in
good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be my hands.
The idea that you would be alone and in pain
and not calling me. That kills me. I love you
more than all the people in the whole world and
(37:03):
anyone ever will, so let it be me. But if
they have a peer, that's really my first choice. My
first choice is that they would know true friendship with
just one person, that is plenty. You can get anywhere
from there, and I had that. You know, I had
a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talk about
(37:25):
her all the time, and she's so important to me
to this day. And I think it must have been
lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah,
the girl's never going to leave her, and she never did.
I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
You know. One of the reasons, Kelly, are so excited
and eager to have you on the show is that
your story is so different from the others that we've heard,
because in your case, everything did go to plan right.
Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people.
You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the
ultimate success, right like that is the end goal, and
(38:04):
yet the reality of it totally knocked your socks off.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
MM hm, yes, exactly. There was no change of plans
whatsoever the day they were born. This is what we
would hope for.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And yeah, and I think what it's done is it's
made me expand my understanding of change in the context
of this show and in my life, to include those
experiences where we intellectually know what to expect, but we
can't possibly predict how it will make us feel.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
That's right, that's right. I mean there is like a
grand canyon between what I know and what I feel. Yeah,
a grand canyon.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And I can see that tension in this conversation. I
feel like you've got these two you got like the
Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and
one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what
you ought to be like and then the other parts
like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your
kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable
to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing
(39:04):
battle between intellect and emotion. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's exhausting, My, it's so exhausting.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, how do you think differently about your role as
a parent now than maybe you used to or just
given the stage of life your kids are in.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will
go bananas over that, but I really don't.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's fascinating. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
For me, that's the only way for me to get
in the right space. It's the only way for me
to orient myself relative to them. Is like, I'm not
your parent. You don't belong to me. I'm not responsible
for you. I don't own you. Your life is none
of my business. You may share as much or as
(39:50):
little as you like. I shouldn't have an opinion about everything,
what you wear, who you dated, how your hair it is,
what your major is, what job you take, what are
you doing this summer? Like, so, I'm just a person
who's crazy about you. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
But I am not a parent in the way that
I have always defined that word.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And how did you define it before? You know?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I'm responsible for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care
of you, and now i'm you know, I'm on standby,
I'm your emergency contact.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Given the new contours of this relationship, I wonder what
you feel that you can reasonably expect from your kids, Like,
what do you feel that you should expect from your
kids at this stage.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I think I should expect as little as possible. I
think that the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy,
but I think the next time I can really expect
things from them is when I'm old and dying. I
think everything else is not their problem. And if they
(41:11):
want to come around and great, but they don't owe
me that they really don't.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
And yet you owe them being on standby indefinitely, able
to cheer them on no matter what, and to love
them unconditionally.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yes, yes, that is the framework of the relationship in
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And that, like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corgan,
I'm just saying. I'm just listening out, and I get
what you're saying, But damn, that's hard.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
It's the only way for it to be beautiful. It's
the only way that it could be beautiful.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Hmm. Okay. So I think what I'm realizing is, like
we all talk about unconditional love, it's a platitude. Yeah,
you have helped me better grasp what that kind of
unconditional love can look like in this relationship. You've made
it more specific for me, which is really helpful, I
(42:08):
think to understand what we mean when we say the platitude.
This is partly what we mean. We mean accepting that
we're getting the short end of the stick and being
okay with it.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
If there's any obligation from therein to me, then it
can't be beautiful. It can just be the meeting of
an obligation. If there's no obligation and then you actually
have time together and you actually enjoy each other and
there's actually sort of a nice flow between you, then
it's beautiful. Somehow, you have to learn to relish giving
(42:46):
it away with no expectation of return, because then if
they return, when they return, when they love you back,
when they crave you, it's magnificent.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week
when I talk to psychologists doctor Marissa Franco about the
science of friendship. Marisa wants us to value our friends
like we value our family and our romantic partners, because
friends can help us access new and exciting parts of ourselves.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Each person that we interact with is an advertisement for
the coaleidoscope of ways in which we can live. That
learning happens through being able to see a friend engage
at a certain hobby or interest and you're like, maybe
I would like that hobby or interest. It's that exposure
that we get through each friend, and so in that way,
it's like each person that we interact with can bring
out a new and different side of our identities.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes
our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,
our sound engineer Andrew Bastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.
Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith
helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
(44:48):
a production of Pushkin Industry, So big thanks to everyone there,
and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
My daughters have said to me, it's a hug, mom,
not a hang.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So Kelly, I'm here. I'm here for the hang any day, Okay,
I'll come over and we will embrace.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick
you up and put me in my arms.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I know exactly what she ate, I know what she wore,
I know who she talked to, I know what words
she can use, I know what letters she can write,
I know what books she's read. Like there's a moment there,
and that moment lasts for several years where you actually
do know every single input in another person's life.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also
knew this would change that as her daughters got older
and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less
about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable,
she still felt a title wave of emotions when it
actually happened.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment that like, this
is how it goes, this is the relationship, this is
the job, and the job is more or less done.
And I had a lot of conversations with a lot
of friends about like, can you believe this is the
way the story goes? Wow? Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly
according to plan and still left her reeling I'm maya
shunker and this is a slight change of plans A
show about who we are and who we become in
(01:55):
the face of the big change. Adolescence is a time
of incredible change for kids and the people who care
for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers,
(02:18):
our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence.
While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be
pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these
kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as
a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards
(02:39):
of raising children, and her memoir The Middle Place touches
on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children.
She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, where she
often talks about parenthood and family life, like her conversation
with writer Susan Orlean on empty Nesting. Parenthood has been
(02:59):
on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my
parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, and I are
wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, will still try
and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big
questions for me, like what do a parent and child
owe each other, and how does this relationship evolve over time.
(03:20):
Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions.
You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation.
My parents are immigrants and they raise my three siblings
and me with a mixture of Indian and American values,
which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless
of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable
(03:41):
it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the
first place. Okay, now onto my conversation with Kelly. I
started by asking her why she wanted to have kids.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where
it was like, oh, I definitely want to be a mother.
I don't think I ever had a change of heart.
It was just totally woven in from the jump. And
I'm not a particularly sweet person, Like I wouldn't say
that I'm huge, nice or patient. I'm not a good cook,
(04:14):
I always run late, I forget a lot of things.
I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic
element to parenting that I would give myself like a
d So it wasn't that I thought I was going
to be particularly good at it in those superficial ways
of like managing a family. But what I wanted, what
(04:36):
I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of,
was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary,
Like there is not in my life experience comparable relationships
outside of the family frame.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to figure
out what that word means to you in this context.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside
of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner,
and in the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees,
it's so high you have bug bites up and down
your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers
and I would walk down the hall and go to
sleep on my parents' floor, so that when we woke
(05:21):
up every day in the summer, I'd have like GT's
foot in my face and Booker's foot in my belly,
and like we were just kind of in there together.
I love that, And I loved that we didn't ever
get central air conditioning. I loved it that that was
the only way was to share this air together all
night long and breathe all over each other, and you know,
people are bourbon and farting, and it's kind of hilarious
(05:45):
because you can only do it with so few people. Yeah,
you know, anything that you can only do with like
a handful of people your whole life, Like, that's just
got to be significant.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I so resonate with this intimacy concept, and I think
until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component
of just being present with one another in all of
these bland moments that are totally lacking in signify, except
in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of
familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when
we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the
(06:19):
kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection
and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm
just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade,
my family of six we went on a cruise and
it was like the most exciting thing that my family
was ever to do. We went on one of these
like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents treated
(06:40):
themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room
and us. Four kids were put into this little box
with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my
favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't
close enough in that little box together, because I just
found it intoxicating to be so close to these people
(07:02):
who I loved.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire,
And I'm curious to know whether in the early years
your expectations of mom lined up with reality.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So I mean it went off the rails fairly quickly
because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I
got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy,
and so everything was up in the air. I did surgery,
then I did another surgery that I had my ovaries removed.
Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy, and
then it was like really finally over about maybe eighteen
(07:38):
months after it started. And then you have to come
all the way back down into your life again. And
then it did start to feel like this is what
I wanted in particular. Two things. One is my husband
Edward got up super early. He left at six o'clock
and then at six ' oh one when the door closed,
(07:59):
Claire would pad over and jump in on one side,
and at six point thirty Georgia would pad over and
get in on the other side. And there was nowhere
we had to be, and they were just on me.
And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I
know this will end. This is what I wanted, this
is what I didn't want to miss right now, this
(08:19):
feeling I had no pressures on me, they had no preschool,
and oh god, it was so great. And then the
other thing is all these super surprising moments, like a
crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying,
what is this And I was like, oh my god,
(08:41):
it's your last name. That's your last name, and she
was like, what's a last name. I'm like, oh my god,
this is I just could not have seen this coming, Like,
of course someone has to tell you that there's such
a thing as a last name, and this is what
yours is, and this is what the letters are, and
this is the order you write them in, and this
is how you do it. And so I remember writing
(09:02):
in my journal that night I taught Georgia her last name.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Today, you wrote in the New York Time that before
our children become themselves, when they are more physical than
intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The
way he sits like his dad, the furrow of her
brow so much like her mom's, her flat feet, his
luscious eyelashes just like grandpa's. I wonder, how did you
(09:29):
quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating,
that sort of looks like she's angry, and it is
exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this
little knot in her brow is Edward's.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, I mean,
it runs deeper than their physical traits. It seems like,
I mean, I really want to understand when you say
we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that for me
and what that means. What does it mean to claim children?
(10:12):
And like, what does that do to our own psychology
as parents?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, I think it's super dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded,
and I think it's probably really common. I remember the
first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in
San Diego and we pulled over and she ran straight
for the water, and then instantly like, instead of letting
that just be hers, it was like, ah, she's just
(10:38):
like you, Edward, she's a swimmer, and it's like, well,
or she's just her and she's having a great moment.
And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because
we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably
(10:58):
misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and
decide without even knowing we're doing it. But this is
because blank like either it's because you are the way
you are, your husband is the way they are, they're
your grandparents, something about their sibling or some moment that
(11:21):
you observed, and so you're always like deconstructing your kid's
behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to
anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, like we are dying
to understand. We are eager to make sense of our
(11:43):
children's moods and their behaviors and what they do that's
problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, and what they
do that's spectacular that we can't wait to tell our
friends they did, and kind of attribute that to people,
because like, who wants to say, I don't know, Yeah,
(12:06):
I don't know why she does that. Yeah, it's the
very first thing you do is try to figure out why.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly
that your kids were doing things or learning things that
you were not a part of.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her
name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and
Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care
of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's
house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable,
and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them
little cookies and taking them out for a swim and whatever.
(12:43):
All of this is sort of unknown to me. I'm
just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she
loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. And
fast forward like a year and a half. We're on
a little family walk and this woman pulled over in
her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia,
(13:03):
And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid?
There is no way that she could know someone that
I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she
doesn't even know words. I didn't tell her, Like I'm
doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know
what she wore, I know who she talked to, I
know what words she can use, I know what letters
(13:25):
she can write, I know what books she's read. And
this is probably why it's so hard to pull your
hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and
that moment lasts for several years where you actually do
know every single input in another person's life because you're involved,
you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You're talking about the early years, like the first few years, the.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia,
and I was like, this is so weird. And I
was like, Hi, I'm Georgia's mom. And I remember hearing
myself say I'm Georgia's mom and thinking, oh, this is
this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning
of me in the world as just Georgia's mom.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah. And I'm assuming as your girls got older that
you got more and more of these examples of how
their lives were growing independently of yours.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Well. I mean, it's very interesting to be told what
your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers,
And there's often moments of surprise there, so you're either
like waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions.
But if you're doing a good job, if you really
have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you
(14:37):
think I didn't know that about her. I didn't know
she loved math, or in the reverse. I remember this
teacher of Georgie's in high school said George is like
a great science student, like she understands everything. And I
said to Georgia, God, do you love science? And she said,
oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science.
And I was like, oh right. Again, there's this like
(15:00):
fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain
is like ough A plus B equal C, and she's like, no,
apos B equals D.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed
to you that you either didn't know something about your
daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them
was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Sometimes thrilling, sometimes it was a little moment of awe,
like this is cool, like watching a great movie or
reading a great book when you're surprised. Yeah, and sometimes
it was maddening because I was sure that I was
right and the person was wrong, and then they had
some influence in their life and I didn't want that.
Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think
(15:51):
there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving.
It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they
get older.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, when it came to their transition to college. And
I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because,
like you said, when when your kids are living under
your roof, even if they don't share everything with you,
you still get so much access to their lives just
through your exposure, right, Like you might see them interact
with their friends after school, or you might know their
(16:21):
or you will know their calendar of activities because you're
doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least
have this illusion that you have access to a large
chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional
content of their lives is being withheld from you, And
so at some point you had to deal with physically
(16:41):
separating from your kids when they went off to school.
And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for
me of what it was like to drop your younger
daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before,
and when I was taking her the night before, we
had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever.
And she goes tomorrow, when you got.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Me off, know me, just know me, know who I
am and what my preferences are. That's basically what she was.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Saying, exactly, put me first. And I was like, I
get it. You don't want a scene, you don't want tears,
you don't want me talking to people. Just take the
stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and
get out of there. And I was like, I got this.
I can do this, And I think I did all right.
I mean you'd have to ask her, but I think
I did fine. So fast forward two years. I had
(17:39):
to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is
also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like
our snotty, weeping, shaking moment. Can't even talk about it.
Now in the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like,
(18:03):
can I just let this all out? And basically what
I was feeling is this is the part of life
that I was looking forward to the most, and today
is the end of it. And there will be great things,
(18:24):
of course, so much good work to do, so many
people to love and help I get it. But this
is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever.
We're never going back. And would you just mind if
I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes
and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in
(18:45):
that van and we'll go load up your room and
I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and
so they just held her and then we went. It
went so fast like it you know, it's because the car,
like the blinkers are on. Yeah, and when you pull up,
there's a nice person with a clipboard and they're like, hi,
(19:05):
you know, you're in room three eighteen and you have
thirty eight minutes to move this car. And so the
blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle
and you're going up and down the stairs and then
it's over and I was like bye, and honestly, like,
I know, I probably sound like a crazy person, but
I knew what was happening, and I was right. It
(19:27):
is different. It is over, like that part is over
and it's fine, like I'm gonna have a great forty years.
But there's no denying that, like the big page has
been turned and I'm something else now. To them, I'm
something different. I mean, you stand around with a bunch
of moms on the playground and someone says their mom's
(19:52):
coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how long
she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind of
where you end up, is that you're a slightly like
I love her, but like, yeah, three nights. That's where
this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but
(20:15):
feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality,
and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging
that this is real.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change
of plans. When Kelly Corgan's daughters moved away to college,
she was eager to stay involved in their lives, but
her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment
(20:51):
and figuring things out for themselves, and so when Kelly
did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses
into their lives.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
This is when the rubber hits the road, I think,
is when your kid moves out and you don't have
eyes on them anymore, so you don't have a way
to know their life and their moods and their well being.
You're not able to assess their well being with your
own eyes. You can't hear the tone of their voice,
you can't see their posture, you can't see whether they're
eating or not eating, whether they went for a run
(21:20):
or stayed in bed. It's like a big black box
and all you have are these tiny conversations where at
like four to twelve on Tuesday, they might be in
a great mood, and at four thirty on Tuesday, long
after the call is over, something horrible happens. But until
you talk to them again, you're still in four twelve
Tuesday mode, where you're like and people ask all the time.
(21:42):
Wherever you go, people say how are your kids? And
whatever they've told you on four to twelve on Tuesday,
you're like, she's great, she's awesome. And conversely, if you
catch them on nine am on Saturday morning and they're terrible.
Then they are terrible until the next time you talk
to them and hear the spark back in their voice.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
When it came to the transition to college, one thing
that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were given guidance
by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, now's
your time to back the f off right, Like there's
something like that. Tell me more about that. That was
so interesting to me and so shocking and like not
at all what happened, for example, when I was off
(22:22):
to college. If no one is even thinking through this
lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, yeah. So Claire goes to University of Virginia and
the day of drop off, there was a letter sent
to all the parents of the freshman class and it
said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, and then
it said, here's a note from our one of the
people that works in our counseling office on campus. It
(22:49):
is not okay for you to be texting your kid
multiple times every day. The best thing you could do
for them is to stand back a little bit and
let them get into some kind of groove. Because as
soon as you say to somebody, how's it going, the
true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's going
(23:09):
to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going.
As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this.
But I feel like once you label something that it
takes on greater meaning, Like that language and thoughts and
feelings are all kind of linked in this way that
if she's if I make her say it's good, it's bad,
(23:30):
I like it, I don't like it. How's your roommate
she's okay, Then all of a sudden, that framing takes
on added power to define what happens next. And that's
such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, leave
your kids alone, let them drive. If they want to
contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to
(23:51):
your kid within like sixty seconds.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, I'm just laughing at this moment. Thinking back to
when I felt this transition. I think it was in
college at some point where you know, my parents were
so available to me when I was in high school
and in college, I went to college close by to
where they lived, so i'd still see them a bunch,
But I remember I would call my mom or dad
and they were just too busy for me. My Mom's like,
I'm sorry, I'm helping people get green cards to study
(24:17):
in this country. And my dad's like, I'm in the
middle of the physics equation, you know. And I just
remember thinking it was actually amazing in that moment to
feel like a little bit of that lifeline was cut off,
because it meant that I was on my own a bit, right,
and I just had to kind of figure stuff out myself.
And I never really thought about that until this moment,
(24:38):
And now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for
my development, that they had their own thing.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Oh, it's phenomenal, And this is a huge new thing
for me that I'm trying to get my head around
right this second, Like something new is beginning now and
I can make it great. Like I'm totally I love Edward,
I love my work. We're starting new things. I love novelty.
I'm learning, like everything I know how to put this
together in a way that I can be happy and
(25:05):
productive and useful. That doesn't mean that's something didn't end.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
To articulate what ended writer or what felt so stark
about the move away from home or just maybe their adolescence.
It was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what
you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, I mean first I was grieving knowing them in
the way that you know someone who lives in your house,
like you're a kid in college or the rest of
their life, Like how much does your mom know about
you right now? How much does my mom know about
me right now? Not as much as she did when
(25:45):
I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is?
He writes this thing called wait but why Yeah, of course.
So he did this thing where it was like this
little dot scale of how many days you have with
your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five,
a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I
(26:06):
had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When
Georgia's eighteen, I have thirty five days with her. When
George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When George's forty,
I have five days with her, like five days in
a year, like not that many. So I guess I
(26:28):
was just grieving, like this is what's going to happen?
Like this is the way this is. And it's so
weird to me that something that was so consuming for
me as a kid, it's like all I thought about.
And then when it started happening, like when I met
Edward and fell in love and got married and then
we got pregnant, and we got pregnant again, I thought,
(26:49):
this is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have
any big, really specific visions about what happens now. So
it wasn't like I was like moving into this awesome
thing that I had been anticipating my whole life. It
was like, oh God, this is the part where like
nobody really knows what they're doing and how long they
should do it for. And you know, like this part
(27:11):
is so ambiguous compared to you know, in the first
stage of your life, you're someone's kid, and then if
you become a parent, then you do that for the
next stage, and then the next stage is like what now,
this is a time to like move your focus. It's
like in my mind at night when I wake up,
(27:33):
I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating
my field of vision away from them to the people
in my life right now who can make use of
me I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work.
I have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast.
We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript
(27:55):
and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And
it's still not enough to get them out of my
field of vision, like they're still right there. I still
have to like sweep them away and like almost like
burn my head and leave them in their own little
box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something
(28:16):
I will never know, right. It's not like I'm gonna
get the play by play later where they're like, here's
what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm not
gonna know. It's none of my business, honestly, and if
I'm doing it right, I don't even want to know.
Like that's where I'm trying to get to. And so
the way I do it is just like this little
exercise where it's like they're full in the frame. I
(28:38):
used to be a photographer, So if you can imagine,
like you're holding your camera to your eye and you're
filling the frame with your kids, and then you just
rotate and you put somebody else in the center of
the frame. You put your work. You put somebody you
love who needs some help. You put somebody who makes
you feel useful, you put some volunteer activity, you put
your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, along the way as part of this long journey
right through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're
own adults going off into the world, were you ever
tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to
protect yourself from getting hurt?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I mean, probably, like like a shooting star kind of thought.
But like the minute you see them on your phone,
you're like, hey, how are you? Like, you know, the
night before you're like, I got a stop. This is crazy,
you know, I'm like losing my mind here. And then
it's like it's like being in a romance a little bit. Yeah.
I mean, Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Having a teenage daughter is like having an office crush,
because you just like always like you're thinking about them
a lot more than they're thinking about you, and you
just like go up to their door and you're like
a bunch of us are going to eat dinner.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play
it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be
like super busy, So I totally get yeah, if you
can't come, but like, yeeah.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I've definitely like on a bag day when I feel
like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm messing it up,
I'm making it harder for them, I'm putting rocks in
their backpack in some way that I'm newly aware of.
And then you kind of like flooded with shame and defensiveness.
And then I always think the same thought, which is
I'm going to go to Europe and live there for
(30:28):
five years and leave you alone and let you do
your individuating and I'll see you, you know, when you're
twenty eight, and it'll be great, Like you don't need
me and I'm just making trouble and I got to
avert my gaze. So anyway, yes, my instinct is like
get out of the way. But I have to get
(30:49):
out of the way in this very dramatic move where
I'm like, I can't talk to you for five years.
I go grow up and I'll take care of myself.
And you know, it's so stupid, You're.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because I'm
actually a really good hang. Yeah, that's right, that's right,
that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off.
I do find that, ye, I do find sometimes that
I'm like, you know, people find like what I have
to say to be useful, Like I you know, like
you're like, I have a TV show, Yeah, people like
(31:21):
tune in.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
You wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, you know. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.
And of course I don't have kids, so it's hard
for me to fully appreciate the relationship or what that
bond is like. But I could just imagine myself feeling
betrayed by the system, if that makes sense, Like wtf,
this is the arc, this is how things are supposed
(31:44):
to play out, And now here I am with my
heart just broken into pieces and feeling like I don't
have the kind of intimacy that I had before with
my kids, and not because I don't want it. In fact,
I'm obsessed with them, Like I would just feel so
ticked off. Did you ever feel that way?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes? I feel I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment
that like, this is how it goes, this is the relationship,
this is the job, and the job is more or
less done. And now I'm here to enjoy them when
they happen to have time to enjoy me. Yeah, you know,
like can't get enough, don't need a thing. That's my motto.
(32:22):
It's like, can't get enough, don't need a thing. And
I you know, I had a lot of conversations with
a lot of mom friends about can you believe this
is the way the story goes?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Wow, Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Let's say that you're the organizer of the universe. You
get to decide for just one moment. Finally, let's enter
this natural Yeah, finally, I know, even waiting for this moment,
I'm giving it to you, girl.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if
we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would
the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How
would it have turned out on their way to college?
How would it have been different? And you're in control,
you're the design architect here.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
That the way it would be different is that we
would the parents would have some switch built into us
that flips at just the right moment, such that we
can totally let go and be thrilled by the release.
(33:37):
And I think some people have that. I mean, Edward,
my husband would not give you the same answers to
these questions, like he's delighted. He can't believe it. It's
just fantastic. It's great that they're on their own, it's
great they're independent. It's great that they don't need to
talk to us that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly,
And I admire him for that. I think he's probably right,
(33:59):
Like I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact,
I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it.
I just have a feeling that a lot of us
feel this way.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even from a cultural perspective,
I'm thinking about how different my own orientation is about
what children owe their parents or vice versa. Like my
parents aren't like, hey, is it okay if I text
your call? They will call me whenever the hell they want,
and the expectation is that I will pick up. So
that's a whole other thing, which is just societal expectations
within the Indian culture about what this relationship is like
(34:36):
and I'm just thinking in this moment, how curious is
it that your answer to my question wasn't well, that
my kids would just keep sharing their lives with me.
God damn it, that's what I really want. I want
them to keep sharing with me everything. And that's such
an interesting perspective that your answer was was an adjustment
on the parent side. It involved no adjustment to how
the kids development turns out or that's striving for independence.
(35:00):
So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece.
You just need to Yeah, ooh interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You know one thing that makes me super happy, and
I just noticed it because it happened yesterday, is when
I know that they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else,
I'm delighted and it really helps me let go. So
Georgia has this great friend named Nora, Claire has this
(35:26):
great friend named Emma. Those relationships really help me release
because I think, oh my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma,
whatever Georgia takes to Nora, she's going to get great advice.
They have great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations
that like, sure, in a perfect world, I'd love to
have that conversation. I'd love to be in on that.
(35:47):
I love a deep conversation. I mean, I love talking
to you, but it's not appropriate for me to be
the one in that conversation. What's perfect is for them
to have one great friend and have the two of
them kind of figuring it out together. And that's true
of both my girls, and that makes me really happy
and it really helps me let go.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
So intellectually I'm on board. I want to know how
you get your emotional side to catch up to that
realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for them to have
that friend and for it not to be me. How
do you because I'm just trying to think about okay,
like a parent's listening to this right now, being like, Kelly,
you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've convinced my rational
brain that this is how I ought to see things.
(36:32):
But oh my god, it's a blow to feel like
when they get broken up with I'm not the first
person they're calling. I'm not on their favorites list.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as you're in
good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be my hands.
The idea that you would be alone and in pain
and not calling me. That kills me. I love you
more than all the people in the whole world and
(37:03):
anyone ever will, so let it be me. But if
they have a peer, that's really my first choice. My
first choice is that they would know true friendship with
just one person, that is plenty. You can get anywhere
from there, and I had that. You know, I had
a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talk about
(37:25):
her all the time, and she's so important to me
to this day. And I think it must have been
lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah,
the girl's never going to leave her, and she never did.
I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
You know. One of the reasons, Kelly, are so excited
and eager to have you on the show is that
your story is so different from the others that we've heard,
because in your case, everything did go to plan right.
Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people.
You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the
ultimate success, right like that is the end goal, and
(38:04):
yet the reality of it totally knocked your socks off.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
MM hm, yes, exactly. There was no change of plans
whatsoever the day they were born. This is what we
would hope for.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And yeah, and I think what it's done is it's
made me expand my understanding of change in the context
of this show and in my life, to include those
experiences where we intellectually know what to expect, but we
can't possibly predict how it will make us feel.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
That's right, that's right. I mean there is like a
grand canyon between what I know and what I feel. Yeah,
a grand canyon.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And I can see that tension in this conversation. I
feel like you've got these two you got like the
Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and
one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what
you ought to be like and then the other parts
like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your
kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable
to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing
(39:04):
battle between intellect and emotion. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's exhausting, My, it's so exhausting.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, how do you think differently about your role as
a parent now than maybe you used to or just
given the stage of life your kids are in.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will
go bananas over that, but I really don't.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's fascinating. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
For me, that's the only way for me to get
in the right space. It's the only way for me
to orient myself relative to them. Is like, I'm not
your parent. You don't belong to me. I'm not responsible
for you. I don't own you. Your life is none
of my business. You may share as much or as
(39:50):
little as you like. I shouldn't have an opinion about everything,
what you wear, who you dated, how your hair it is,
what your major is, what job you take, what are
you doing this summer? Like, so, I'm just a person
who's crazy about you. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
But I am not a parent in the way that
I have always defined that word.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And how did you define it before? You know?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I'm responsible for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care
of you, and now i'm you know, I'm on standby,
I'm your emergency contact.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Given the new contours of this relationship, I wonder what
you feel that you can reasonably expect from your kids, Like,
what do you feel that you should expect from your
kids at this stage.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I think I should expect as little as possible. I
think that the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy,
but I think the next time I can really expect
things from them is when I'm old and dying. I
think everything else is not their problem. And if they
(41:11):
want to come around and great, but they don't owe
me that they really don't.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
And yet you owe them being on standby indefinitely, able
to cheer them on no matter what, and to love
them unconditionally.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yes, yes, that is the framework of the relationship in
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And that, like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corgan,
I'm just saying. I'm just listening out, and I get
what you're saying, But damn, that's hard.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
It's the only way for it to be beautiful. It's
the only way that it could be beautiful.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Hmm. Okay. So I think what I'm realizing is, like
we all talk about unconditional love, it's a platitude. Yeah,
you have helped me better grasp what that kind of
unconditional love can look like in this relationship. You've made
it more specific for me, which is really helpful, I
(42:08):
think to understand what we mean when we say the platitude.
This is partly what we mean. We mean accepting that
we're getting the short end of the stick and being
okay with it.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
If there's any obligation from therein to me, then it
can't be beautiful. It can just be the meeting of
an obligation. If there's no obligation and then you actually
have time together and you actually enjoy each other and
there's actually sort of a nice flow between you, then
it's beautiful. Somehow, you have to learn to relish giving
(42:46):
it away with no expectation of return, because then if
they return, when they return, when they love you back,
when they crave you, it's magnificent.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week
when I talk to psychologists doctor Marissa Franco about the
science of friendship. Marisa wants us to value our friends
like we value our family and our romantic partners, because
friends can help us access new and exciting parts of ourselves.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Each person that we interact with is an advertisement for
the coaleidoscope of ways in which we can live. That
learning happens through being able to see a friend engage
at a certain hobby or interest and you're like, maybe
I would like that hobby or interest. It's that exposure
that we get through each friend, and so in that way,
it's like each person that we interact with can bring
out a new and different side of our identities.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes
our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,
our sound engineer Andrew Bastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.
Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith
helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
(44:48):
a production of Pushkin Industry, So big thanks to everyone there,
and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
My daughters have said to me, it's a hug, mom,
not a hang.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So Kelly, I'm here. I'm here for the hang any day, Okay,
I'll come over and we will embrace.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick
you up and put me in my arms.
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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The Bobby Bones Show
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