January 23, 2025 • 35 mins
Rachel Botsman, Oxford University Lecturer and author of the new Pushkin audiobook How to Trust and Be Trusted, joins Malcolm to talk about how to make smart decisions about trust. Then, a preview of How to Trust and Be Trusted, which is available on Spotify, Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello, Hello, Revisionist History listeners, malcome here today we have
a special guest in the house, Rachel Botsman. Rachel is
a lecturer at Oxford University and a world renowned expert
on the topic of trust, and importantly, not most importantly,
but importantly, she's the author of a new Pushkin audiobook,
How to Trust and Be Trusted. After more than fifteen
(00:44):
years teaching trust to CEOs, entrepreneurs, world leaders, and all
kinds of students, she's now sharing these powerful lessons with
you in her new audiobook. You're going to get a
chance to hear one of her lessons from that audiobook
in just a moment. But first I want to speak
with a woman herself, Rachel Botsman, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
To Revisionist History. Tell me a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
About your interest in trust.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
How did you come to this subject.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's a funny subject to study because it's really intangible trust.
But it came from a fascination in human connection. So
I've always been interested in why we're attracted to some
people and we repel from others. I've always been interested
in what holds groups and teams and society together, and
(01:35):
the force, the social glue is trust, And what I
realized is that in the field of trust you sort
of have people who study like cells and negotiations. So essentially,
how do you manipulate trust to get something from someone,
or you have the other end, which is like the
ester perel end, which is like the therapist. Let's repair
(01:57):
trust when it breaks down. Now, wasn't a lot in between,
which I found fascinating.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, and we you were drawn to this because is
this something we do naturally well or something that we're
bad at.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It's a good question. We do it. Most of us
trust naturally. It's a very intuitive thing. Most of us
do it badly because we rely on intuition and not information,
and especially in high stakes situations or high risk situations,
we're not really taught how to trust well, how to
(02:35):
give our trust to the right people and products and information,
which is a big one. And everything about our society
and technology now is speeding up those decisions, so our
trust making is getting worse, not better.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
What would be some of the most common mistakes we
make when we're trying to kind of make a trust evaluation.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, speed is the enemy of trust, so making it
too quickly or under pressure is a really big one.
So most big decisions we have to make because we've
got to hire someone or whatever that might be. So
that's number one. The second is intuition over information. So
I still believe in trusting your gap, but what is
(03:18):
the information. There's a lot of evidence around charisma and
confidence of awaiting capability, and I think we're seeing that
play out in sort of leaders that are getting elected.
So those that seem like bold and disruptive versus steady
and capable and maybe even bland that really influences trust,
(03:40):
they'd be my top three.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, I'm reminded of years ago I read this study
of student evaluations of professors and how the evaluation a
student makes after like, you know, five seconds is the
same as their evaluation they make at the end of
the term. And they're clearly not making a reasoned decision
(04:03):
about whether they you know, whether this isn't it, whether
this teacher is good, or what they should trust this information,
or they never get beyond the initial question of do
I like this person? The snap judgment, yeah, the snap judgment.
Never they never transcend the snap judgment.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
And sometimes it's not even like it's does this person
feel familiar? Like they can't even get beyond that. And
it's the person that feels strange or unfamiliar that sometimes
we just can't or choose not to trust, and that's
that's a real problem.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, you spend a lot of time on the question
of transparency. You talk a little bit about what do
we gain from adding transparency into these and what do
you mean by transparency in this context.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Or what do we lose as well lose? Yes, I
think it's one of the biggest myths around trust that
needs blowing up. So well. Transparency. I always think of
disclosing information, right, so disclosing lots of lot of information
so you understand why something is happening, or or good
transparencies understanding the context behind a decision, so why did
(05:14):
you choose to do that thing? But transparency in practice
and feel like surveillance. So if you think about transparency,
you're trying to get visibility into something. You're trying to
understand where someone is by tracking them maybe on their phones.
You're trying to understand what they're up to and what
(05:36):
they're doing. And that is the very opposite of trust.
So the way I define trust is a confident relationship
with the unknown So if you think, Malcolm, of people
in your life, your professional or your personal life that
you deeply trust, you don't need to know where they are,
you don't need to know what they're up to. It's
that visibility is a form of control, and that control
(06:01):
can be a sign of lack of trust. So I
think it's I'm not saying transparency is completely a bad thing,
but this idea that you fixed trust issues, systemic trust issues,
trust issues in an organization, even in a relationship, by
making things transparent. It has a backfire effect where it
might work initially because you think, oh, that person's being
(06:24):
more open or I have more visibility into that situation
and therefore more control, but over time it actually leads
to less trust.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But does that you know when you said earlier that
one of the things we need to do is to
not make decisions quickly and gather more information, what's the
difference between gathering more information and transparency.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
It's a great question. So it sounds like semantics, but
there's a difference between openness and transparency. So if I
came to you and said, I'd really love to know
why you chose to put me on your podcast, Malcolm
and you said, sure, I'll share that information. That's being open.
(07:09):
But if equal if you said you know what, you
don't really need to know or I can't really explain why.
If I really trusted you, I wouldn't need to know.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Oh, I see, yeah, do you.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
So the problem is with transparency is when leaders promise
it and then an employee goes to them that says, well,
I really understand what that person's being paid, or how
the bonus structure works, or why you've changed the pricing
mechanism or whatever it may be, and then the leader goes, hmm,
I can't tell you that. Well, you promised to be transparent. Yeah,
(07:44):
So there's this difference between like being open and being
visible and promising for transparency.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
What are so what if you do just put us
in the context of leaders who are managers trying to
create high trust teams? What advice do you give people
who are trying to do that.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, the first thing of the some people are trying
to create high trust teams because they're trying to be innovative.
They're trying to get those teams to be able to
tolerate uncertainty. So high trust teams and creative teams. There's
a real correlation there. So one of the things actually
say is don't mistake reducing risk for increasing trust. So
(08:33):
what a lot of teams do is they figure out
all the bad things that go wrong right at the beginning,
and it's a mindset. It's like, we'll just figure out
how to mitigate risks before they've even happened. And if
you create those kind of cultures in your teams, your
trust mindset, your tolerance for uncertainty and the unknown actually reduces.
(08:56):
So one of the really powerful things to do is
actually go, Okay, how does this team expand their capacity
to be in the unknown and to be in that
creative space versus how much of our culture is actually
wired to measuring and managing risks. That's a really big one.
Another one that I mean, that's harder to do because
(09:21):
I don't think many organizations think they think they're thinking
about trust, but they're actually thinking about risk. So that
shift is quite tricky. An easier one that you can
put into practice tomorrow is to become a better expectation setter.
So so many trust issues and I think many managers
and leaders are really bad at doing this is how
(09:43):
you set clear expectations that allow people to be empowered
and to sort of live and work in the unknown.
So it's like, this is what I expect of you
within this timeframe, within these boundaries. Now go play and
go and do it. But we're often really bad at
setting expectations.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, so tell me. We're about to listen to a
chapter from your book or an excerpt from your book.
Can you tee it up first? What are we about
to hear?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
You're about to hear the introduction or chapter one, which
really lays the foundations on what trust is and how
it works in our lives. And I find it fascinating
and also a beautiful thing. That trust has more definitions
than love, so it is the most debated sociological concept
(10:35):
in our lives. And so in chapter one, we really
dig into this understanding of what trust is and how
it works, and how it influences your decisions and decisions
and choices in ways that you may be aware of
or may never have thought about before.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, wonderful, Rachel.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
This has been really fun, and I I think I
speak for all of my listeners when I say that
we are looking forward to hearing what follows.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, I hope it. I really hope it change the
way people think about trust. That's the reason for doing this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, and the name of your book.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Is it's called How to Trust and Be Trusted intentionally
a two way title because trust is something that you
give and something that you earn, and we have to
think about both those things in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, thank you so much, Rachel.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Thank you Malcolm.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
How to Trust and Be Trusted by Rachel Batsman is
available on pushkin, dot Fm, Audible, Spotify, and anywhere you
get audiobooks. Keep listening for a preview of the audiobook.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Chapter one, how to give your Trust to the right people.
Have you ever trusted the wrong person? In this chapter,
I'm going to teach you a really important workplace skill,
how to give your trust to the right people, because
(12:14):
we can all learn how to make better trust decisions.
I know firsthand about bad trust decisions because when I
was five years old, my parents put their trust in
the wrong person, a nanny. Hello Dad, alright, I called
(12:50):
my dad to ask him more about it.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
So I'm calling about the nanny. Mm hmm, you know
which nanny?
Speaker 6 (12:59):
I think I know which nanny is.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
And nanny are called Doris. It's hard to ever forget Doris.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
What was your first impression of her? Sure, what do
you remember when she came into the house.
Speaker 6 (13:12):
She was very unimpressive, which is quite a good feature.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
No, pair unimpressive. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Well, she was so she was a bland person. It
was just inconceivable that somebody like that could do those
sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Oh, yes, bland old Doris got up to all sorts
of things. The nanny my parents trusted to take care
of me and my brother turned out to be very untrustworthy. Indeed,
she forged my dad's signature to get a loan for
a car, She stole from us in the most brazen ways,
(13:53):
and she was even running a drugs ring. Really, deciding
whom to trust can be pretty complicated. Okay, so not
everyone has put their trust in a drug dealing nanny. However,
we all know how bad it feels to make a
(14:14):
poor trust decision. But I want you to be able
to make good trust decisions, because being able to trust
people is a positive thing and it will make you
better at your job. So I'm going to tell you
why we sometimes trust the wrong people like Dodgy Doris,
(14:35):
and I'll teach you how you can fix this problem.
So let's start by unpacking what trust actually is. It's
a word we use a lot in our lies. But
if I asked you to write down one word to
describe trust, what would it be. Maybe you're jotting down confidence, faith,
(15:03):
or perhaps risk. Some people think of trust as a state,
as an outcome, or a feeling, but trust is a belief.
It's your belief about how someone will behave or how
something will turn out. To go back to my definition
(15:23):
of trust, it's a confident relationship with the unknown. So
what does that mean in the workplace? Let me give
you an example. Trust is a belief that when someone
is working from home and you can't see what they're
up to, they will behave in a way that you expect.
(15:43):
They can be trusted to be productive and not let
you down. If you need to know exactly what someone
is doing and are constantly checking in and monitoring them
and asking them for updates, that's not trust, it's control.
Once you see trust as your belief lens, it can
(16:05):
have a profound impact on the way you make decisions
and how you behave at work. Trusting another person is complicated.
There's a whole host of factors that determine when and
how trustforms. For instance, how long you've known them, what
is the thing you're trusting them with or for, and
(16:28):
how bad would it really be if they let you down.
Stamford Business School professor Roderick Kramer found that eight out
of ten executives report being burned at least once because
they trusted the wrong person at some point in their career.
People tend to make poor trust decisions because they don't
(16:49):
understand how trust dynamics really work. So let me give
you a simple framework to help visualize how trust happens
between two people. In any relationship, there are two players,
the trust giver and the trust receiver. Let's start by
(17:12):
focusing on what it means to be the trust giver.
A trust giver is the person that is deciding whether
to trust someone a boss, a colleague, a friend, or,
in my dad's case, the nanny. As the trust giver,
we have an important choice, do we trust them or not.
(17:32):
What influences our choices and decisions is called a trust signal.
Trust signals are small clues we knowing me or unknowingly
used to decide whether another person should be trusted. How
someone speaks, the questions they ask, who they're with, what
(17:53):
they're wearing, and even how they say hi, how are you?
These are all trust signals. In other words, the way
we make a trust decision is based on pieces of
information we pick up from another person. The tricky thing
is we don't always look for or interpret trust signals
(18:13):
in the right way. Some trust signals are way louder
than others because often we are knowing need tune into
the signals that we want to see that are familiar
to us. Becoming aware of the trust signals you're tuning
into is the first important step in making smarter trust decisions.
(18:38):
Here's a simple exercise to try the next time you
meet someone for the first time, trying to stay aware
of what you're tuning into. Is it their voice, their clothes,
their demeanor, or their posture. Similarly, what questions do you
ask them in the first few minutes. Just becoming aware
(19:02):
of how you're looking for things that are familiar can
be powerful. Making trust decisions based on familarity is a
tricky behavior to change because our assumptions about whom to
trust are deeply wired. They're often biases that have been
with us since we were very young.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
When you're about three months old, you start trusting people
who look like your parents more than other people.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Maria Konnikova is a psychologist and author who's written a
lot about distrust. She's an expert in the ways trust
is exploited by everyone from con artists to poker players,
and she happens to be a champion poker player herself.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We trust people who seem like us, who look like us,
who sound like us, much more than we do people
who don't. That's something that con artists, by the way,
manipulat all the time as well. Oh you know, you're
from New York. I'm from New York And they might
not have ever been to New York, but they try
to get those little superficial similarities so that we have
a basis for trust.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
There's a fascinating study on the link between trust and familiarity.
The study, done by a professor named Lisa D. Bryan
from the University of Glasgow, showed how facial resemblance enhances trust.
Participants in an experiment were shown faces of strangers to
be potential playing partners for a game. When the face
(20:31):
of the stranger was similar to the face of the participant,
they were more likely to trust the unknown person. Take
a moment to think about that. Have you ever trusted
someone just because they felt familiar. Maybe they went to
(20:52):
the same school as you, like the same sports team,
or maybe, as in the study, they even looked a
bit like you. Familiar trust signals are often the loudest
because of what's known as confirmation and desirability bias. We
used them to confirm our own ideas about how someone
(21:13):
or something should be, or how we want them to be.
That's what happened with my parents and Doris the nanny.
She showed up wearing a navy colored uniform complete with
a bonnet hat. She had a mop of curly hair
and large steel rimmed glasses. She even played the tambourine.
(21:37):
I'm not joking. What a trustworthy person she must be.
And even when some major red flags started popping up,
my parents let the familiar trust signals override their better judgment.
There was the time Doris wanted to get away for
a weekend, so she said her uncle Charlie had died
(21:58):
and she needed to go to the funeral. My dad
found out this wasn't true. When he called Doris's mom
to express his condolences, and Doris's mom said, but Uncle
Charlie is just fine. Doris must be confused.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
You can't be confused about what I'm gone dead. At
this point, being quite quick to grasp things, I thought
all was not well.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But you know, even after Uncle Charlie, she came with
us on a holiday to marlbea well.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
That was very convenient.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yes, even though we were only five and eight, my
brother and I could see how Doris was well different
when my parents were around. It was all an act,
and eventually even my dad couldn't ignore what he was seeing.
At the height of suspicion, he did something he'd never
(22:55):
done before. He searched Doris's room. He found a bag
of money under her bed, quite a lot of foreign currency,
and it happened to be from countries Dad had been
traveling to for work.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
I did question her, and she told me that she'd
found the money under a tree in the park.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
And we still didn't get rid of her.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
No, And when I found more money in her room,
she said she'd gone back to the same.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
Tree, same tree.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I want to know where this tree is dead, and
still Doris stayed with us. That was until my dad's
car went missing and he finally kicked her out, called
the police, and sat guard outside our front door with
a baseball bat. I imagine the Doris saga was in
(23:55):
part how I first took a deep interest in understanding trust.
Thinking back on it, my dad told me the decision
to trust Doris came down to convenience. My parents were
busy people with busy jobs. It was more convenient to
keep Doris than to find a different solution. It's easy
(24:17):
to dismiss or laugh at my dad's reasoning, but haven't
we all done that. Not hire a dodgy nanny, of course,
but make a trust decision or continue to trust someone
based on convenience, Like when you tell yourself, I know
that company isn't entirely ethical, they don't treat their employees well,
(24:40):
but their service it makes my life a little easier,
so I'll just carry on using them. Or perhaps you're
under pressure to get something done, so you conveniently delegate
a piece of work to a person when you know
they shouldn't really be doing it. Convenience so often Trump's trust.
(25:00):
Understanding the power convenience has over trust has been one
of the most important things I've learned about being a
trust giver. Let's try another exercise. Think of the last
time you made a poor or very bad trust decision
at work. Did you blame it on the character of
(25:27):
the other person They turned out to be unreliable, incompetent, dishonest,
or you fill in the blank. Someone's character plays a
critical role, but what we often overlook is the importance
of having the right information. As the social scientist Diego
(25:52):
Gambetta puts it, trust has two enemies, not one bad
character and poor information. So the next time you find
yourself making an important trust decision, I'd recommend asking yourself
these three questions. What what trust signals? Am I tuning
(26:14):
into Two? Am I trusting this person out of convenience?
And three? Am I making this trust decision too quickly?
Now let's look at something else that influences what trust signals.
We pay attention to our gut. My dad's gut told
(26:40):
him that a nanny who's seen bland was a safe one.
His gut told him that blandness was a good trust signal.
But our gut feeling or intuition is rarely the source
of trustworthy decisions. For Maria Khonnikova, the expert in distrust,
there's a common saying about this that's a real pet peeve.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Trusting your gut. I hate that phrase, and I think
it's very misleading and very bad at because here's what
we know from psychology. Our quote unquote gut has very
strong reactions, and they're sometimes correct and sometimes wrong, and
our ability to distinguish the two is at about fifty
(27:25):
to fifty, so a chance we have very little ability
to be able to figure out which our gut feelings
are correct and which are not correct.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
So let me share with you something from my research
that has made me think differently about the role of
gut feeling in giving trust. Gut feeling is not the
decision maker, but a decision driver. So use your intuition,
but challenge it with other information to make sure it's accurate.
(28:01):
Here's how this might come up in your job when
you're thinking about how to have a difficult conversation with
a colleague, or when you're taking a brief from a
potential client and you're not entirely sure what they do,
and of course when you're hiring someone new. Don't let
(28:21):
your gut make the trust decision.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Throw your gut out the window. You don't know. You
are relying on people perception that is most often wrong.
That is why so many hiring decisions are so terrible,
because people go with those feelings. And we know that
those thin slice judgments are made within the first few
seconds of meeting someone, and that's when you're hiring decision
(28:53):
is made. And that's just crazy. How can you base
someone you're going to hire into your organization based on
two seconds, ten seconds, it doesn't even matter, twenty seconds.
Anything that has seconds after it should not be a
basis for such an enormous decision.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Instead of making important trust decisions in seconds, Maria recommends
going by the old mattra that former President Ronald Reagan
was so fond of trust. But verify.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Our default has to be trust. Right initially, you have
to believe the things you hear, believe the people you meet.
You're not going to be able to go through life
if every single moment you're doubting everything, and it's completely impractical. However,
you have to have that second verification stage. Verify, Verify
(29:43):
everything that's important, and verify even when you don't really
want to.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Nobel Laureate Daniel Carneman's definition of a gut feeling is
spot on. He says, a gut feeling is thinking that
you know without knowing why you do. Even though I've
studied the ins and outs of trust for over a decade,
I have still gone with my gut countless times. Sometimes
(30:10):
things have gone right and other times things have gone
horribly wrong. So let me share with you a useful
tool that will help you better read trust signals. It's
called a trust pause. A trust pause is a healthy
hesitation where we question if a person, a product, or
(30:31):
a piece of information is worthy of out trust. If
you find yourself wanting to make a trust decision quickly
from your gut, take a trust pause and ask yourself
the following questions, where is this confidence coming from? Am
I seeing or hearing something I want or need to
(30:55):
believe to be true? Is it because this person feels
familiar or similar to me? And a really important question,
what information do I still need to make a relation
liable decision? When you put these questions into practice, they
(31:15):
will intentionally slow you down. Now, I know that in
a world that's so driven by efficiency. This might sound counterintuitive,
but speed can be the enemy of trust. I'm not
suggesting you overthink every single trust decision. I mean, you'd
(31:36):
never leave the house, But if it's something important, take
a trust pause. For example, if you have some sensitive
or confidential information to share with your boss, take a
trust pause before speaking to them. If you're going for
a new role in an organization, take a trust pause
(31:56):
to speak to someone in a similar position. If you're
starting an important contract with a new supplier, take a
trust pause to speak to some other customers. Are you sure?
Are you sure? That's at the heart of a trust pause.
It might feel like you're wasting valuable time, but otherwise
(32:19):
you may be left wondering why you didn't pause for
a bit longer before giving your trust. Because once trust
has been given, it's in the other person's hands to
take care of or break. My dad could have taken
a trust pause with Doris and it would have saved
(32:41):
a lot of anguish and his vovo. Of course, there
are regrets, but after everything, it hasn't really changed my dad.
He just tends to trust people.
Speaker 6 (32:56):
I have run my life on the basis of trusting people,
and I've found that generally that has worked out for me,
and has that trust been abused a bit, But I
think that what I've gained from trusting people is more
than if I've been constantly look here at my shoulder,
(33:17):
not trusting people, and by and large that worked out.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Okay, some people trust too much and too readily, Like
my dad, they have what psychologists call a hyperpensity to trust.
They assume they won't be taken advantage of.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Human beings are wired to trust. Trust as our default state,
and the only reason society exists and all of our
institutions exist and just the world functions is because of trust.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Here's something else Maria helped me rethink the existence of
con Artists like Doris actually says something very good about
humanity that may sound strange, but the only reason they
succeed is because as people, for the most part, we
are trusting. As the late master magician Ricky Jay once said,
(34:12):
you wouldn't want to live in a world where you
couldn't be conned, because it would mean you're living in
a world where you never trusted anyone or anything.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
And that to me just gets at the heart of it.
You know, the fact that I can get conned is
the flip side of the fact that I believe in things,
I believe in people, and that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
There's no one size fits all approach to trust giving. Ultimately,
trust is a choice. It's yours to give or not.
So let's just recap the four main ideas about giving
trust that you can now put into practice.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
One.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Be aware of the trust signals you're tuning into by
remembering that we tend to trust what's familiar. Two, recognize
when you're allowing convenience to trump trust. Three, reframe your
gap feeling as a decision driver, not the decision maker.
(35:21):
And finally, four speed can be the enemy of trust,
So take a trust pause to get the right information.
I'm going to leave you with a question to think
about as we head into chapter two. How do you
get someone else to trust you?
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello, Hello, Revisionist History listeners, malcome here today we have
a special guest in the house, Rachel Botsman. Rachel is
a lecturer at Oxford University and a world renowned expert
on the topic of trust, and importantly, not most importantly,
but importantly, she's the author of a new Pushkin audiobook,
How to Trust and Be Trusted. After more than fifteen
(00:44):
years teaching trust to CEOs, entrepreneurs, world leaders, and all
kinds of students, she's now sharing these powerful lessons with
you in her new audiobook. You're going to get a
chance to hear one of her lessons from that audiobook
in just a moment. But first I want to speak
with a woman herself, Rachel Botsman, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
To Revisionist History. Tell me a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
About your interest in trust.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
How did you come to this subject.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's a funny subject to study because it's really intangible trust.
But it came from a fascination in human connection. So
I've always been interested in why we're attracted to some
people and we repel from others. I've always been interested
in what holds groups and teams and society together, and
(01:35):
the force, the social glue is trust, And what I
realized is that in the field of trust you sort
of have people who study like cells and negotiations. So essentially,
how do you manipulate trust to get something from someone,
or you have the other end, which is like the
ester perel end, which is like the therapist. Let's repair
(01:57):
trust when it breaks down. Now, wasn't a lot in between,
which I found fascinating.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, and we you were drawn to this because is
this something we do naturally well or something that we're
bad at.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It's a good question. We do it. Most of us
trust naturally. It's a very intuitive thing. Most of us
do it badly because we rely on intuition and not information,
and especially in high stakes situations or high risk situations,
we're not really taught how to trust well, how to
(02:35):
give our trust to the right people and products and information,
which is a big one. And everything about our society
and technology now is speeding up those decisions, so our
trust making is getting worse, not better.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
What would be some of the most common mistakes we
make when we're trying to kind of make a trust evaluation.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, speed is the enemy of trust, so making it
too quickly or under pressure is a really big one.
So most big decisions we have to make because we've
got to hire someone or whatever that might be. So
that's number one. The second is intuition over information. So
I still believe in trusting your gap, but what is
(03:18):
the information. There's a lot of evidence around charisma and
confidence of awaiting capability, and I think we're seeing that
play out in sort of leaders that are getting elected.
So those that seem like bold and disruptive versus steady
and capable and maybe even bland that really influences trust,
(03:40):
they'd be my top three.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, I'm reminded of years ago I read this study
of student evaluations of professors and how the evaluation a
student makes after like, you know, five seconds is the
same as their evaluation they make at the end of
the term. And they're clearly not making a reasoned decision
(04:03):
about whether they you know, whether this isn't it, whether
this teacher is good, or what they should trust this information,
or they never get beyond the initial question of do
I like this person? The snap judgment, yeah, the snap judgment.
Never they never transcend the snap judgment.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
And sometimes it's not even like it's does this person
feel familiar? Like they can't even get beyond that. And
it's the person that feels strange or unfamiliar that sometimes
we just can't or choose not to trust, and that's
that's a real problem.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, you spend a lot of time on the question
of transparency. You talk a little bit about what do
we gain from adding transparency into these and what do
you mean by transparency in this context.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Or what do we lose as well lose? Yes, I
think it's one of the biggest myths around trust that
needs blowing up. So well. Transparency. I always think of
disclosing information, right, so disclosing lots of lot of information
so you understand why something is happening, or or good
transparencies understanding the context behind a decision, so why did
(05:14):
you choose to do that thing? But transparency in practice
and feel like surveillance. So if you think about transparency,
you're trying to get visibility into something. You're trying to
understand where someone is by tracking them maybe on their phones.
You're trying to understand what they're up to and what
(05:36):
they're doing. And that is the very opposite of trust.
So the way I define trust is a confident relationship
with the unknown So if you think, Malcolm, of people
in your life, your professional or your personal life that
you deeply trust, you don't need to know where they are,
you don't need to know what they're up to. It's
that visibility is a form of control, and that control
(06:01):
can be a sign of lack of trust. So I
think it's I'm not saying transparency is completely a bad thing,
but this idea that you fixed trust issues, systemic trust issues,
trust issues in an organization, even in a relationship, by
making things transparent. It has a backfire effect where it
might work initially because you think, oh, that person's being
(06:24):
more open or I have more visibility into that situation
and therefore more control, but over time it actually leads
to less trust.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But does that you know when you said earlier that
one of the things we need to do is to
not make decisions quickly and gather more information, what's the
difference between gathering more information and transparency.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
It's a great question. So it sounds like semantics, but
there's a difference between openness and transparency. So if I
came to you and said, I'd really love to know
why you chose to put me on your podcast, Malcolm
and you said, sure, I'll share that information. That's being open.
(07:09):
But if equal if you said you know what, you
don't really need to know or I can't really explain why.
If I really trusted you, I wouldn't need to know.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Oh, I see, yeah, do you.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
So the problem is with transparency is when leaders promise
it and then an employee goes to them that says, well,
I really understand what that person's being paid, or how
the bonus structure works, or why you've changed the pricing
mechanism or whatever it may be, and then the leader goes, hmm,
I can't tell you that. Well, you promised to be transparent. Yeah,
(07:44):
So there's this difference between like being open and being
visible and promising for transparency.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
What are so what if you do just put us
in the context of leaders who are managers trying to
create high trust teams? What advice do you give people
who are trying to do that.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, the first thing of the some people are trying
to create high trust teams because they're trying to be innovative.
They're trying to get those teams to be able to
tolerate uncertainty. So high trust teams and creative teams. There's
a real correlation there. So one of the things actually
say is don't mistake reducing risk for increasing trust. So
(08:33):
what a lot of teams do is they figure out
all the bad things that go wrong right at the beginning,
and it's a mindset. It's like, we'll just figure out
how to mitigate risks before they've even happened. And if
you create those kind of cultures in your teams, your
trust mindset, your tolerance for uncertainty and the unknown actually reduces.
(08:56):
So one of the really powerful things to do is
actually go, Okay, how does this team expand their capacity
to be in the unknown and to be in that
creative space versus how much of our culture is actually
wired to measuring and managing risks. That's a really big one.
Another one that I mean, that's harder to do because
(09:21):
I don't think many organizations think they think they're thinking
about trust, but they're actually thinking about risk. So that
shift is quite tricky. An easier one that you can
put into practice tomorrow is to become a better expectation setter.
So so many trust issues and I think many managers
and leaders are really bad at doing this is how
(09:43):
you set clear expectations that allow people to be empowered
and to sort of live and work in the unknown.
So it's like, this is what I expect of you
within this timeframe, within these boundaries. Now go play and
go and do it. But we're often really bad at
setting expectations.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, so tell me. We're about to listen to a
chapter from your book or an excerpt from your book.
Can you tee it up first? What are we about
to hear?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
You're about to hear the introduction or chapter one, which
really lays the foundations on what trust is and how
it works in our lives. And I find it fascinating
and also a beautiful thing. That trust has more definitions
than love, so it is the most debated sociological concept
(10:35):
in our lives. And so in chapter one, we really
dig into this understanding of what trust is and how
it works, and how it influences your decisions and decisions
and choices in ways that you may be aware of
or may never have thought about before.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, wonderful, Rachel.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
This has been really fun, and I I think I
speak for all of my listeners when I say that
we are looking forward to hearing what follows.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, I hope it. I really hope it change the
way people think about trust. That's the reason for doing this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, and the name of your book.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Is it's called How to Trust and Be Trusted intentionally
a two way title because trust is something that you
give and something that you earn, and we have to
think about both those things in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, thank you so much, Rachel.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Thank you Malcolm.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
How to Trust and Be Trusted by Rachel Batsman is
available on pushkin, dot Fm, Audible, Spotify, and anywhere you
get audiobooks. Keep listening for a preview of the audiobook.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Chapter one, how to give your Trust to the right people.
Have you ever trusted the wrong person? In this chapter,
I'm going to teach you a really important workplace skill,
how to give your trust to the right people, because
(12:14):
we can all learn how to make better trust decisions.
I know firsthand about bad trust decisions because when I
was five years old, my parents put their trust in
the wrong person, a nanny. Hello Dad, alright, I called
(12:50):
my dad to ask him more about it.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
So I'm calling about the nanny. Mm hmm, you know
which nanny?
Speaker 6 (12:59):
I think I know which nanny is.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
And nanny are called Doris. It's hard to ever forget Doris.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
What was your first impression of her? Sure, what do
you remember when she came into the house.
Speaker 6 (13:12):
She was very unimpressive, which is quite a good feature.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
No, pair unimpressive. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Well, she was so she was a bland person. It
was just inconceivable that somebody like that could do those
sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Oh, yes, bland old Doris got up to all sorts
of things. The nanny my parents trusted to take care
of me and my brother turned out to be very untrustworthy. Indeed,
she forged my dad's signature to get a loan for
a car, She stole from us in the most brazen ways,
(13:53):
and she was even running a drugs ring. Really, deciding
whom to trust can be pretty complicated. Okay, so not
everyone has put their trust in a drug dealing nanny. However,
we all know how bad it feels to make a
(14:14):
poor trust decision. But I want you to be able
to make good trust decisions, because being able to trust
people is a positive thing and it will make you
better at your job. So I'm going to tell you
why we sometimes trust the wrong people like Dodgy Doris,
(14:35):
and I'll teach you how you can fix this problem.
So let's start by unpacking what trust actually is. It's
a word we use a lot in our lies. But
if I asked you to write down one word to
describe trust, what would it be. Maybe you're jotting down confidence, faith,
(15:03):
or perhaps risk. Some people think of trust as a state,
as an outcome, or a feeling, but trust is a belief.
It's your belief about how someone will behave or how
something will turn out. To go back to my definition
(15:23):
of trust, it's a confident relationship with the unknown. So
what does that mean in the workplace? Let me give
you an example. Trust is a belief that when someone
is working from home and you can't see what they're
up to, they will behave in a way that you expect.
(15:43):
They can be trusted to be productive and not let
you down. If you need to know exactly what someone
is doing and are constantly checking in and monitoring them
and asking them for updates, that's not trust, it's control.
Once you see trust as your belief lens, it can
(16:05):
have a profound impact on the way you make decisions
and how you behave at work. Trusting another person is complicated.
There's a whole host of factors that determine when and
how trustforms. For instance, how long you've known them, what
is the thing you're trusting them with or for, and
(16:28):
how bad would it really be if they let you down.
Stamford Business School professor Roderick Kramer found that eight out
of ten executives report being burned at least once because
they trusted the wrong person at some point in their career.
People tend to make poor trust decisions because they don't
(16:49):
understand how trust dynamics really work. So let me give
you a simple framework to help visualize how trust happens
between two people. In any relationship, there are two players,
the trust giver and the trust receiver. Let's start by
(17:12):
focusing on what it means to be the trust giver.
A trust giver is the person that is deciding whether
to trust someone a boss, a colleague, a friend, or,
in my dad's case, the nanny. As the trust giver,
we have an important choice, do we trust them or not.
(17:32):
What influences our choices and decisions is called a trust signal.
Trust signals are small clues we knowing me or unknowingly
used to decide whether another person should be trusted. How
someone speaks, the questions they ask, who they're with, what
(17:53):
they're wearing, and even how they say hi, how are you?
These are all trust signals. In other words, the way
we make a trust decision is based on pieces of
information we pick up from another person. The tricky thing
is we don't always look for or interpret trust signals
(18:13):
in the right way. Some trust signals are way louder
than others because often we are knowing need tune into
the signals that we want to see that are familiar
to us. Becoming aware of the trust signals you're tuning
into is the first important step in making smarter trust decisions.
(18:38):
Here's a simple exercise to try the next time you
meet someone for the first time, trying to stay aware
of what you're tuning into. Is it their voice, their clothes,
their demeanor, or their posture. Similarly, what questions do you
ask them in the first few minutes. Just becoming aware
(19:02):
of how you're looking for things that are familiar can
be powerful. Making trust decisions based on familarity is a
tricky behavior to change because our assumptions about whom to
trust are deeply wired. They're often biases that have been
with us since we were very young.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
When you're about three months old, you start trusting people
who look like your parents more than other people.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Maria Konnikova is a psychologist and author who's written a
lot about distrust. She's an expert in the ways trust
is exploited by everyone from con artists to poker players,
and she happens to be a champion poker player herself.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We trust people who seem like us, who look like us,
who sound like us, much more than we do people
who don't. That's something that con artists, by the way,
manipulat all the time as well. Oh you know, you're
from New York. I'm from New York And they might
not have ever been to New York, but they try
to get those little superficial similarities so that we have
a basis for trust.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
There's a fascinating study on the link between trust and familiarity.
The study, done by a professor named Lisa D. Bryan
from the University of Glasgow, showed how facial resemblance enhances trust.
Participants in an experiment were shown faces of strangers to
be potential playing partners for a game. When the face
(20:31):
of the stranger was similar to the face of the participant,
they were more likely to trust the unknown person. Take
a moment to think about that. Have you ever trusted
someone just because they felt familiar. Maybe they went to
(20:52):
the same school as you, like the same sports team,
or maybe, as in the study, they even looked a
bit like you. Familiar trust signals are often the loudest
because of what's known as confirmation and desirability bias. We
used them to confirm our own ideas about how someone
(21:13):
or something should be, or how we want them to be.
That's what happened with my parents and Doris the nanny.
She showed up wearing a navy colored uniform complete with
a bonnet hat. She had a mop of curly hair
and large steel rimmed glasses. She even played the tambourine.
(21:37):
I'm not joking. What a trustworthy person she must be.
And even when some major red flags started popping up,
my parents let the familiar trust signals override their better judgment.
There was the time Doris wanted to get away for
a weekend, so she said her uncle Charlie had died
(21:58):
and she needed to go to the funeral. My dad
found out this wasn't true. When he called Doris's mom
to express his condolences, and Doris's mom said, but Uncle
Charlie is just fine. Doris must be confused.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
You can't be confused about what I'm gone dead. At
this point, being quite quick to grasp things, I thought
all was not well.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But you know, even after Uncle Charlie, she came with
us on a holiday to marlbea well.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
That was very convenient.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yes, even though we were only five and eight, my
brother and I could see how Doris was well different
when my parents were around. It was all an act,
and eventually even my dad couldn't ignore what he was seeing.
At the height of suspicion, he did something he'd never
(22:55):
done before. He searched Doris's room. He found a bag
of money under her bed, quite a lot of foreign currency,
and it happened to be from countries Dad had been
traveling to for work.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
I did question her, and she told me that she'd
found the money under a tree in the park.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
And we still didn't get rid of her.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
No, And when I found more money in her room,
she said she'd gone back to the same.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
Tree, same tree.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I want to know where this tree is dead, and
still Doris stayed with us. That was until my dad's
car went missing and he finally kicked her out, called
the police, and sat guard outside our front door with
a baseball bat. I imagine the Doris saga was in
(23:55):
part how I first took a deep interest in understanding trust.
Thinking back on it, my dad told me the decision
to trust Doris came down to convenience. My parents were
busy people with busy jobs. It was more convenient to
keep Doris than to find a different solution. It's easy
(24:17):
to dismiss or laugh at my dad's reasoning, but haven't
we all done that. Not hire a dodgy nanny, of course,
but make a trust decision or continue to trust someone
based on convenience, Like when you tell yourself, I know
that company isn't entirely ethical, they don't treat their employees well,
(24:40):
but their service it makes my life a little easier,
so I'll just carry on using them. Or perhaps you're
under pressure to get something done, so you conveniently delegate
a piece of work to a person when you know
they shouldn't really be doing it. Convenience so often Trump's trust.
(25:00):
Understanding the power convenience has over trust has been one
of the most important things I've learned about being a
trust giver. Let's try another exercise. Think of the last
time you made a poor or very bad trust decision
at work. Did you blame it on the character of
(25:27):
the other person They turned out to be unreliable, incompetent, dishonest,
or you fill in the blank. Someone's character plays a
critical role, but what we often overlook is the importance
of having the right information. As the social scientist Diego
(25:52):
Gambetta puts it, trust has two enemies, not one bad
character and poor information. So the next time you find
yourself making an important trust decision, I'd recommend asking yourself
these three questions. What what trust signals? Am I tuning
(26:14):
into Two? Am I trusting this person out of convenience?
And three? Am I making this trust decision too quickly?
Now let's look at something else that influences what trust signals.
We pay attention to our gut. My dad's gut told
(26:40):
him that a nanny who's seen bland was a safe one.
His gut told him that blandness was a good trust signal.
But our gut feeling or intuition is rarely the source
of trustworthy decisions. For Maria Khonnikova, the expert in distrust,
there's a common saying about this that's a real pet peeve.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Trusting your gut. I hate that phrase, and I think
it's very misleading and very bad at because here's what
we know from psychology. Our quote unquote gut has very
strong reactions, and they're sometimes correct and sometimes wrong, and
our ability to distinguish the two is at about fifty
(27:25):
to fifty, so a chance we have very little ability
to be able to figure out which our gut feelings
are correct and which are not correct.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
So let me share with you something from my research
that has made me think differently about the role of
gut feeling in giving trust. Gut feeling is not the
decision maker, but a decision driver. So use your intuition,
but challenge it with other information to make sure it's accurate.
(28:01):
Here's how this might come up in your job when
you're thinking about how to have a difficult conversation with
a colleague, or when you're taking a brief from a
potential client and you're not entirely sure what they do,
and of course when you're hiring someone new. Don't let
(28:21):
your gut make the trust decision.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Throw your gut out the window. You don't know. You
are relying on people perception that is most often wrong.
That is why so many hiring decisions are so terrible,
because people go with those feelings. And we know that
those thin slice judgments are made within the first few
seconds of meeting someone, and that's when you're hiring decision
(28:53):
is made. And that's just crazy. How can you base
someone you're going to hire into your organization based on
two seconds, ten seconds, it doesn't even matter, twenty seconds.
Anything that has seconds after it should not be a
basis for such an enormous decision.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Instead of making important trust decisions in seconds, Maria recommends
going by the old mattra that former President Ronald Reagan
was so fond of trust. But verify.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Our default has to be trust. Right initially, you have
to believe the things you hear, believe the people you meet.
You're not going to be able to go through life
if every single moment you're doubting everything, and it's completely impractical. However,
you have to have that second verification stage. Verify, Verify
(29:43):
everything that's important, and verify even when you don't really
want to.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Nobel Laureate Daniel Carneman's definition of a gut feeling is
spot on. He says, a gut feeling is thinking that
you know without knowing why you do. Even though I've
studied the ins and outs of trust for over a decade,
I have still gone with my gut countless times. Sometimes
(30:10):
things have gone right and other times things have gone
horribly wrong. So let me share with you a useful
tool that will help you better read trust signals. It's
called a trust pause. A trust pause is a healthy
hesitation where we question if a person, a product, or
(30:31):
a piece of information is worthy of out trust. If
you find yourself wanting to make a trust decision quickly
from your gut, take a trust pause and ask yourself
the following questions, where is this confidence coming from? Am
I seeing or hearing something I want or need to
(30:55):
believe to be true? Is it because this person feels
familiar or similar to me? And a really important question,
what information do I still need to make a relation
liable decision? When you put these questions into practice, they
(31:15):
will intentionally slow you down. Now, I know that in
a world that's so driven by efficiency. This might sound counterintuitive,
but speed can be the enemy of trust. I'm not
suggesting you overthink every single trust decision. I mean, you'd
(31:36):
never leave the house, But if it's something important, take
a trust pause. For example, if you have some sensitive
or confidential information to share with your boss, take a
trust pause before speaking to them. If you're going for
a new role in an organization, take a trust pause
(31:56):
to speak to someone in a similar position. If you're
starting an important contract with a new supplier, take a
trust pause to speak to some other customers. Are you sure?
Are you sure? That's at the heart of a trust pause.
It might feel like you're wasting valuable time, but otherwise
(32:19):
you may be left wondering why you didn't pause for
a bit longer before giving your trust. Because once trust
has been given, it's in the other person's hands to
take care of or break. My dad could have taken
a trust pause with Doris and it would have saved
(32:41):
a lot of anguish and his vovo. Of course, there
are regrets, but after everything, it hasn't really changed my dad.
He just tends to trust people.
Speaker 6 (32:56):
I have run my life on the basis of trusting people,
and I've found that generally that has worked out for me,
and has that trust been abused a bit, But I
think that what I've gained from trusting people is more
than if I've been constantly look here at my shoulder,
(33:17):
not trusting people, and by and large that worked out.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Okay, some people trust too much and too readily, Like
my dad, they have what psychologists call a hyperpensity to trust.
They assume they won't be taken advantage of.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Human beings are wired to trust. Trust as our default state,
and the only reason society exists and all of our
institutions exist and just the world functions is because of trust.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Here's something else Maria helped me rethink the existence of
con Artists like Doris actually says something very good about
humanity that may sound strange, but the only reason they
succeed is because as people, for the most part, we
are trusting. As the late master magician Ricky Jay once said,
(34:12):
you wouldn't want to live in a world where you
couldn't be conned, because it would mean you're living in
a world where you never trusted anyone or anything.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
And that to me just gets at the heart of it.
You know, the fact that I can get conned is
the flip side of the fact that I believe in things,
I believe in people, and that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
There's no one size fits all approach to trust giving. Ultimately,
trust is a choice. It's yours to give or not.
So let's just recap the four main ideas about giving
trust that you can now put into practice.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
One.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Be aware of the trust signals you're tuning into by
remembering that we tend to trust what's familiar. Two, recognize
when you're allowing convenience to trump trust. Three, reframe your
gap feeling as a decision driver, not the decision maker.
(35:21):
And finally, four speed can be the enemy of trust,
So take a trust pause to get the right information.
I'm going to leave you with a question to think
about as we head into chapter two. How do you
get someone else to trust you?
Host
Malcolm Gladwell
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Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!