February 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Do you go on endless dates hoping to find the perfect partner only to be endlessly disappointed? Or have you stopped meeting people because you've decided that you're undateable? Maybe you need to start dating like a scientist.
Behavioural scientist Logan Ury has studied the common mistakes we make when looking for love - and thinks science can shows us a better way.
Logan is the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She’s also the dating coach for the new Netflix showThe Later Daters and author of How to Not Die Alone.
Check out Logan's website at loganury.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, doctor Laurie Santo's here here at the Happiness Lab.
We spend a lot of time talking about the happiness
benefits of being a fan, and it just so happens
that another Pushkin podcast has gone deep into this topic.
It's a show called Against the Rules, hosted by best
selling author Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis is the brains behind
books like Moneyball, The Big Shore, and Liar's Poker. This
(00:44):
season of Against the Rules is all about sports fandom,
but also sports gambling, which was legalized in the US
just a few years ago. From a happiness perspective, this
is a fascinating topic. Michael talks with gambling addicts, but
also pro basketball stars, Vegas bookies, and even experts in
casino design. I also get to make it appearance. I
(01:05):
really enjoyed our conversation, So if you're a little bit curious,
I urge you to check out Against the Rules and
subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Welcome to February.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's a month of cold weather but warm hearts thanks
to Valentine's Day. Love is in the air this time
of year, so we're devoting two shows of our new
how to season to the science of relationships, and we're
kicking things off with dating. Many of us feel like
we're getting dating all wrong. We chase the wrong people entirely,
or we chase the right people in the wrong way.
(01:48):
But what if we used science to find the ideal partner.
That's what we'll be exploring today, how to date like
a scientist, and we have the perfect expert to help
us down those relationship lab codes. Logan Uri is the
director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She's
also the dating coach for the new Netflix show The
Later Daters, and the author of an awesome book, How
(02:09):
to Not Die Alone. With a CV like that, you
might think Logan's been a dating with since high school,
but you'd be wrong.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I haven't always been great at finding love for myself,
but I think the fact that I was unlucky in
love for many years actually makes me better at what
I do, because I think for people who met the
love of their life in high school or were just
so beautiful that people were falling all over them their
whole lives, I think it's harder to relate to the
experience that most people go through, which is that finding
a partner is really challenging. There's a lot of rejection involved.
(02:39):
It's just a difficult thing that many of us go through.
And I feel like, even though now I've been happily
married and with my partner for a long time, I'm
really glad that I had those experiences so that I
can relate to the average daters experience.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Any dating was that you'd be willing to share for
the show to give a sense of the fact that
you had challenged it dating early on.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
The thing that comes to mind for me is this
story that in my book I referred to as burning
Man Brian definitely not his real name, not Brian. It
really has to do with my anxious attachment. And so
I had a trend when I was dating where if
somebody rejected me, instead of saying, oh, we're not a
fit or that person's not interested in me, I would say, oh, well,
if they rejected me, they must be better than me,
(03:18):
and I should try to convince them to be with me.
So when I met this person at Burning Man and
we had this pretty epic love affair, and then I
came back and I was like, Okay, well, now we're
both back in San Francisco. Of course, we're just going
to start dating because we had so much fun at
Burning Man, and he was not interested in that at all.
And so instead of just understanding that not only was
he not interested, but also not really a good fit
(03:39):
for real life, I set out on this goal to
convince him to be with me. And so the more
he pulled away with his avoidant attachment style, the more
I pursued him. And that was really my definition of love.
And I just remember sitting on my friend's couch, crying,
why won't he be with me? Why is he rejecting me?
Why am I not good enough? And really trying to
apply all these lessons from other aspects of my life,
(04:01):
like getting my dream job or getting the apartment I wanted,
And you just can't do that with love. It's not
the kind of thing where more effort always tell someone Okay,
well then I should be with you. And so I
was lucky enough to about a year later, find my
now husband, Scott, who coincidentally worked in your lab when
he was in college. But yes, really learning the lessons
(04:24):
of what a secure partner looks like and understanding that
a lot of the traits that this Burning man Brian
guy had were red flags, but instead I was just like,
how can I convince him to be with me?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's always your this wonderful example, because I think when
we see people who are experts on relationship were giving
lots of relationship advice, you might assume that they were
kind of born with those instincts. But you've argued that
that's really not the case, that this is something we
can learn.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Absolutely, that's a big part of my work is this
idea that we're born knowing how to love but not
how to date, and that dating is really challenging. But
the good news is it's a skill and you can
learn it. And so dating as we know it pre
apps really was invented around eighteen nineties, so this was
really when women started working outside of the house and
meeting people on their own. So before that, marriages really
(05:09):
came about through a matchmaker or through you know, my
dad and your dad decided that we live next door
to each other, we should combine our parcels of land,
or my dad gave your dad twelve camels for your
hand in marriage, and things like that. And so nowadays,
in the days of dating apps and really the individualistic
culture that we're in, it's a huge burden on the
(05:31):
person to figure out who they should be with. And
so when people feel like, you know, Logan, this is
probably weird to say, but I just wish I had
an arranged marriage. I feel like my mom or someone
else could decide better than me. I don't think that
that's crazy at all. I think the fact that we
as individuals need to make this really hard choice that's
going to have a huge impact on our overall health, happiness,
(05:52):
and life satisfaction is actually something that we should think about.
And for anyone who's having a hard time with dating,
I hear you. It is hard, but it's also a
skill and you can get better at it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And one of the insights that you brought, which I
love so much, is really resonates with this show, is
that one of the kinds of things we can bring
in is all the sites from behavioral science talk about
how behavioral science can help us date better.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I feel like there's just so much great work in
two fields, the fields of relationship science, which is the
study of how we love, and the field of behavioral science,
the study of how we make decisions. And so through
my work, I really like to combine the best insights
from both of those fields and use them to help
people make better decisions in love. And so if you
actually break down getting into a relationship, it's a series
(06:36):
of decisions. Am I ready to date? Who should I date?
Should we become exclusive, should we move in together? Should
we get married? And if you really understand behavioral science
and the things that get in our way around making decisions,
then you can actually overcome some of the blind spots
holding you back from finding love.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And in your book you've so nicely argued that we
need to get over these blind spots if we really
want to do better when it comes to dating. And
one of the blind spots that you've brought up is
our kind of urge to relationshop. What is relationshopping and
how can we kind of deal with this challenge?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So researchers talk about this idea of relationshipping, which is
the process of getting into a romantic relationship. But in
the last decade or so, they've noticed this concept of
relation shopping, shopping for a partner as if you would
shop for a good And why that doesn't really work
is because there's this really interesting concept talking about experiential
(07:29):
goods versus searchable goods. So searchable goods are things like
a new camera or getting a new speaker, something like that,
where you can say what size do I want, what
price am I willing to pay? How good is the
battery life, how quickly can it be here? And you
can really break it down into its parts. Experiential goods
are things like wine or movies where you and I
(07:51):
might experience them completely differently, and it's not about what
they are, it's about the feelings that they bring out
in us. And so it's really important when people are
dating to understand that people are experiential goods, they're not
searchable goods. And so when people come into my dating
coaching practice and they say, Okay, I know exactly what
I want. I want a skinny five foot six Jewish redhead,
(08:14):
I'm like, no, you're not buying a pair of headphones.
You're searching for a life partner. And so it's much
less about those resume traits. It's much less about what
you just see if you know someone two dimensionally, and
much more about the experience of being with them and
what side of you they bring out.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And I imagine that this kind of bias can get
even more tripped up in the days of kind of
dating apps and social media. You talk about how relationshopping
can maybe get worse, or how it's even more of
a challenge that we need to pay attention to if
we're on apps like this.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
So for a long time, I've noticed this idea of
people on social media really having this feeling of compare
and despair. So we all know that on Instagram people
post the highlight reels of their life. Look at my
child and her adorable Halloween costume, even though she was
shrieking before and afterwards. Or look at this amazing sunset
walk on the beach of my vacation. Meanwhile, you and
(09:05):
your boyfriend are about to break up. And so I
think for many people there's a feeling of I'm not
good enough. Everyone else has found love except me, and
Instagram gives them that feeling. But I've also seen something
in the last two years crop up on TikTok, which
is this idea of date entertainment. So people go on
these dates and they cannot wait to get home to say,
(09:26):
ladies and gentlemen, I had the worst possible date. You'll
never guess he showed up twenty minutes late. He smelled
like this. He ordered all this food, then I had
to pay for it, And so there's a feeling of
I want to go viral. One of the easiest ways
to go viral is to share a really negative story.
And so what I'm often dealing with is singles who
are so negative on dating because the content that they're
(09:48):
consuming on TikTok is really telling them there's no one
out there and dating sucks.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And you could so see why this is a problem, right,
because if your expectations are like, oh, this is going
to go terrible, I imagine this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy
when you actually go on a date, right, is that
you kind of change all your priors about how bad
people are, So you might the normal negativity bias we
bring to everything might be getting even worse when you're
going dates.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yeah, I feel like a couple things could be happening, definitely,
the negativity bias. Then there's also a lot of people
who are just not dating at all. And so this
is something that I've noticed even in the last few months,
is this idea of I've quit dating, and that's just
not a term that I really heard before this summer.
So it used to be like, oh, you know, I'm
focusing on my graduate degree or I'm moving, so I'm
(10:30):
gonna like be more into dating when I get there.
But now it's this binarya of I'm dating or I've
quit dating. And I think that there's something harmful about that,
where people really are having an identity as someone who's
not dating instead of I'm someone who's open to connections
even though maybe it's not their priority right now.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And so another bias that you've talked about is what
you've referred to as the Monet effect.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
What's the Monee effect?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So the Monee effect is something that I named because
I love the movie Clueless. And in the movie Clueless,
who doesn't really yes, Oh it's amazing. In the movie Clueless,
there's the popular girl named Cher, and Ty, who's the
new girl, says, Hey, what do you think about our
class made Amber? And Cher says, Oh, she's a full
on Monet. It's like a painting. From far away, it's okay,
(11:16):
but up close it's a big old mess. And so
she's of course referring to the Impressionist painter Monet. And
what happens is that when our brains lack information, they
fill in the information in a positive way, hoping for
a great outcome. And so this actually makes people seem
more desirable than they are. So if somebody on Hinge
says I love music, then in your brain you fill in, oh,
(11:39):
I bet they must love the same music as me.
And this is especially a problem when people pen pal
talk to somebody on hinge for so long without meeting
up with them, because even if when they meet up
that person is fantastic, they're not going to match the
fantasy of them that they created in their head. And
so the point is to understand when you have less information,
(11:59):
you fill in the gaps in an overly positive way.
This creates a fantasy, and then it ultimately leads to
disappointment that could have been avoided if you just met
the person or talk to them on the phone sooner.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's time for a quick break. But when we return,
logan will.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Help us figure out how to avoid those problematic dating types,
the romanticizer, the maximizer, or even the dreaded undatable. The
happiness lab will be right back to date. Like a scientist,
you got to start by being realistic, as that famous
(12:33):
Bell curve might suggest, even in love, most things tend
to be in the middle, and that means there probably
isn't just one soule me for you on a planet
of billions of people. Likewise, it's unlikely that you are
the most awkward and unlovable person in existence. Dating expert
logan Uri says a lot of people still fall for
these false ideas, so much so that she uses a
(12:55):
wee bit of adult language when she talks about it.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I've categorized people into the three dating tendencies, and
if people are interested, they can take the quiz on
my website. And what they all have in common is
unrealistic expectation. So first one the romanticizer. They have unrealistic
expectations of relationships. So if you're listening and you're the
kind of person who says things like there's one person
out there for everyone, I'm single because I just haven't
(13:19):
met my soulmate yet, I really want the happily ever after,
well guess what you might be a romanticizer. And the
ideas behind romanticizers come from a lot of different places
in pop culture. They come from Disney movies, they come
from rom comms, they come from what we just talked
about social media and these perfect images that we project.
But the issue is with the romanticizer that they don't
(13:40):
understand a few things. One is that the person who
might make you happiest long term may not come in
the physical package that you're expecting, and so if you
are only expecting you know, your Prince Eric or your
Prince Charming, then you might miss out on a lot
of great potential partners. The other thing is that we
know from psychologists Renee Franniuk that people fit into either
(14:02):
a soulmate mindset or a work it out mindset. The
soulmate mindset is the idea that if you find the
right person, everything will work out. That's where relationship satisfaction
comes from. Instead, the work and out mindset is the
belief that relationship success derives from putting in work. And
So for the romanticizers out there who say, I don't
(14:22):
want to be on a dating app because that's not romantic.
I want to go to a farmer's market and reach
for the tomato the same time as my soulmate and
fall happily ever after, what I like to say to
them is that what's romantic is that you met someone
and you want to commit to them, and you're going
to build a relationship. Who cares how you met. If
you're together for fifty years, the day you met is
(14:43):
point zero zero five to five percent of the relationship.
And so get over that we met story and just
focus on meeting someone.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You've also argued that we need to get over what
you call the spark. In fact, I think you have
a little bit of a strong motto about this. What's
the spark and what's the big problem?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Okay, I don't know your rules over there about cursing,
so I'll just say my motto around this is this
idea of fuck the spark. And this is truly something
that when I was writing the book I felt passionate about.
Since the book has come out, it's kind of taken
on a life of its own, which I feel great about.
And fuck the spark is the idea that people will
go on a really good first date, the person will
be a great fit with them, there's a lot of
(15:20):
reasons why they get along. But then this person will
say to me, I'm not going to see them again. Logan,
I just didn't feel the spark. And so the spark
has become this all encompassing word that means instant chemistry, fireworks, butterflies,
and people are giving up on a lot of great
potential partners because they didn't initially feel that. But the
research shows that only eleven percent of couples say that
(15:43):
they fell in love at first sight, and actually a
lot of couples take time to get together. So the
first myth of the spark is that if you don't
feel it in the beginning, it's never going to grow.
That's absolutely not true. Over time, people like each other
more because of the mere exposure of fact, where when
something's more familiar, we like it more. So, yes, the
(16:03):
spark can grow over time. The second myth of the
spark is that if you feel it, it's necessarily a
good thing. That is also not true. I can tell
you I often meet people where I'm like, wow, did
we have a little flirty dynamic there? And then three
of my friends say the same thing about that person,
and we're like, Oh, it's not us, it's that person
in particular. They're very sparky. They give that feeling to
(16:26):
many people, and sometimes it can actually be a sign
of something negative. It can be a sign of somebody
avoidant who makes you feel excited because they keep pulling
away and you don't know how they feel about you,
and that actually causes anxiety that you misinterpret as butterflies.
It can also be a sign of narcissism or some
negative behavior. The third myth of the spark is that
(16:46):
if you have a spark in the beginning, the relationship
is viable. That's also not true. Many unhappily married or
now divorced couples once started with the spark. So it's
enough to get you into a relationship, but not enough
to keep you there. And that's really why I promote
this idea of fuck the spark, go after the slow burn.
And I feel like I married a slow burn myself.
(17:09):
Slow burn is someone who may not be the sparkist.
They may not be the person that shines on every
first date or is the center of attention at a party,
but they're a deeply good person. They're reliable, they would
be an incredible life partner. And so I really try
to train people to, yes, the spark is fun, enjoy it,
it's real, but don't cement your whole life and your
long term relationship about it, and really give these slow
(17:31):
burn people a chance.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You argue that there's a second tendency we can fall
into in that some people themselves often fall into, which
is being a maximizer.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
What's a maximizer.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, So the second of the three dating tendencies is
the maximizer. And living in Silicon Valley and having a
lot of clients who are in the New York area,
I feel like I coach a ton of maximizers. And
so the story with the maximizer is that they have
unrealistic expectations of their partner, and they're the kind of
person who says, I can research my way into finding
(18:01):
the perfect person. And so for them, if they want
to find a really good vacuum, they're going to read
fifty reviews on it and then feel like, yep, I
analyze all of this, I can find the perfect vacuum.
And then they think that they can do that with dating.
But it's impossible in dating to date every possible person.
And as we talked about with searchable versus experiential goods,
(18:21):
it's just not the same thing. And so maximizers really
struggle because they feel like, Okay, I've dated some great people.
Now I just want to combine the best traits of
all of them and find that person. And they always
feel like I need to keep searching because then I'll
find somebody else out there. And what ends up happening
is that a lot of maximizers keep rejecting people or
not accepting someone who might be great, and then at
(18:43):
a certain age they look back and they say, Wow,
I wish that I had married one of the great
people I had met before.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So what's the solution to not kind of falling prey
to maximizing. Is there another good strategy we should use?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes, So there's an excellent framework by the cognitive psychologist
Herbert Simon who talks about maximizers and satisficers. And so
we just talked about maximizers, but a satisficer, which is
the portmanteau of satisfy and suffice. They have standard, but
they're not overly concerned about finding something else out there.
(19:14):
And so when I say to satisfies to people, they
often hear a different s word, which is settle, and
they get really defensive about this loogan. Everyone else found
their love story. Why do you want me to settle?
But satisficing is not about settling. It's about having a standard,
which can be very high, and then when you meet
someone who satisfies that standard, then you say, great, I'm
(19:35):
going to build a relationship with them. I'm going to
build a life with them instead of doing what maximizers do,
which is fine, that amazing person, and then say, wow,
well if they exist, what else might exist. And what
people get wrong is that they think maximizers make better decisions,
but that's not what we've found. We found that maximizers
make good decisions and then feel bad about them. Satisfiers
(19:57):
also make good decisions, but then they feel good about them,
and so what's more important being right or being happy?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It also seems like this act of feeling good about
your decision means you're going to do the work all
long term relationships are going to need right where you're
kind of investing in your partner a little bit more
over time, you know, kind of working it through. If
you're a maximizer and you quickly go to like, oh,
I must have made the wrong decision because there's this
perfect person out there, so if you mess up in
this tiny way, you must not be that person. It
seems like ultimately, satisfiers are doing something that really helps
(20:26):
them invest in the relationship long term too.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Absolutely, And I think, you know, since doing the research
for my book and learning about this, I've really tried
to become a satisfy store in a lot more aspects
of my life. So, for example, when I needed to
buy a car during the pandemic, I understood that I
wanted something used, I wanted a hybrid. I had a
certain price in mind, and I went to two dealerships
and when I found the car that I wanted, I
(20:50):
just bought it and I felt great about it. Ever since,
I think that there's a world where I had maximized
that decision and I had spent much longer researching and
either wound up with the same car or a different car,
which I felt worse about. And so I truly think
that this is a huge thing that people can do
to feel happier in their lives, is to understand that
you can set standards and satisfy them. You don't need
(21:11):
to always wonder what else is out there, because that's
the nagging question in your head that actually robs the
joy from your life.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And so that's the problem of being too much of
a maximizer. A final issue that you've brought up, which
actually is one that I resonated with a lot when
I think back to my old dating life. Is kind
of a belief that we have in ourselves that can
leave us astray. It's this idea that we are undatable.
And you had a really interesting incident recently with a
newsletter where you saw just how prevalent this bias was.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yes. So the third tendency that I've identified is called
the hesitator, and this is someone who has unrealistic expectations
of themselves. So if you're listening and you're not even
dating at all, and you're single and you might want
to be in a relationship, then you are a hesitator.
And so a hesitator is someone who feels like, I'm
just not ready to be out there. I'll be ready
when I lose ten pounds, when I have a more
(22:03):
impressive job, when I clean up my apartment. There's always
a future state where you will be lovable, not lovable
right now. And what's so sad is that hesitators really
miss out on a few things. They underestimate the opportunity
cost of not dating, which is you don't get better
at dating and you don't figure out who you want
to be with.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And you also had an incident recently where I think
you saw how prevalent this one type of this hesitator
strategy is.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yes. So I was working with a coaching client and
they mentioned this idea of feeling undtable. They felt like
there was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that
they weren't lovable and that they couldn't go out there
and date because somebody would reject them. And it really
stuck with me. So I wrote to my weekly newsletter
and I said, do you feel like you're undtable? Right
back to me with some of the reasons why you
(22:50):
might feel this way, And out of every newsletter that
I've ever sin so over two hundred and fifty newsletters,
this one got the most responses because people just felt
so seen by it, and they wrote back and they
said things like, I'm undtable because I have an STI
I'm undtable because I've never been in a romantic relationship before,
because I've been in too many romantic relationships. I'm undatable
(23:12):
because I have chronic health issues. I'm undtable because I
had cancer in my twenties and I don't know how
to talk about it, and just so many emails coming
from a really deep place where people felt like there
was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that no
one would ever love them. And then I put together
some future newsletters that talked about how actually it's our vulnerability,
(23:33):
it's our flaws that make us feel human and that
other people can relate to. And I told the story
of a good friend of mine who is a former alcoholic,
and he used to not date because he didn't want
to have to talk about why he was ordering juice
instead of a drink, and he was really afraid of it.
But at a certain point he just said, you know what,
I'm actually really proud of my sobriety and I'm just
(23:55):
going to talk about it from a place of strength.
And so he really owned his narrative of Hey, I
used to struggle with this, here's when I hit rock bottom.
Now I actually have taken control of my life. I've
been sober for seven years. And sometimes he would talk
about it on dates and girls didn't like it. But
at a certain point he talked to someone and she
was like, oh, I also have a bunch of issues.
You have baggage I have baggage. Our baggage matches and
(24:17):
it made her much more comfortable. And now they are
happily together. They own a house, they have a dog,
they have two kids, and it really is the story
of somebody who was willing to be vulnerable to share
the thing that they thought made them undateable, and that
actually made them easier to connect with and it led
to an amazing relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It reminds me of the psychological bias known as the
beautiful mess effect, right that we think that our vulnerabilities
are going to be awkward, everybody can see them as
red flags or make us undatable, But in fact our
messes are in some sense beautiful to other people like
and it winds up in some weird way making us
more attractive rather than less.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I haven't heard that term before, but I really like
it because I feel like Brene Brown has been putting
out this message for a long time. Your vulnerability is
what attracts people to you. The thing that makes you
think you're unlovable is actually making you very lovable. Who
doesn't love a beautiful mess?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
A beautiful mess can make a beautiful partner. But when
we get back from the break Logan will share her
cautionary tale of how pursuing a guy based on his
looks and vibe almost caused her to miss out on
mister Wright. The Happiness Lab will return in a moment.
Dating expert logan URI's book is called How to Not
(25:31):
Die Alone, and that sums up the focus of her work.
She wants us to find not just a casual hookup,
but a committed relationship. The problem is that we often
confuse a great one night stand for the perfect life partner.
It's an error that Logan herself experienced firsthand.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Okay, yes, let's talk about birdingman Bryan. And so he
really was this prom date archetype. And what is a
prom date. It's somebody who you're attracted to, somebody who's fun,
somebody who you want to dance the night with, take
pictures with, maybe you know, kiss at the end of
the night. And so he really fulfilled that for me
where I was very attracted to him. Was I thinking
about what he would be like as a life partner. No,
(26:10):
a life partner is the kind of person who's reliable.
You can make hard decisions with them. You know that
they will pick up your kid from the dentist and
you're nodding to get a text five minutes before saying, oh,
I totally forgot, can you do it? And So what
I found is that when you're younger and you have crushes,
it's totally fine to be interested in the prom date.
I think that for the early years of our dating history,
(26:33):
that's absolutely fine. But the mistake that people make is
that they don't switch to the life partner mentality soon enough.
And so that's like when I'm talking to women who
are in their early forties and they're talking about dating
a guy who lives in a basement with no windows
and isn't ready for kids yet, I'm just like, well,
you want kids, so I think you really need to
start finding somebody who shares those values.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But you found a way to shift out of that
with your current husband, Scott, my former research assistant. So,
how is Scott like a better life partner? How did
you get you away from sort of prom date model.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah? So I really love the story that I have
with Scott because I feel like it's something that can
help be inspirational to other people because it's not the
traditional love story where we just met day one, love
at first sight and then have been happily ever after
ever since. So we actually first met in college many
years ago, and I just remember this because he added
(27:25):
me on Facebook at the time, which of course was
probably a little bit of flirtation. But I don't remember
meeting him in college after that. And then seven years later,
we were both working at Google and we had lunch
together and we kind of hit it off, but nothing
came out of it. And I even saw him on
Tinder that summer and I swiped left because I was like, ah,
(27:46):
he looks like a bro wearing a backwards hat. I
just wasn't interested at all. But then I wanted to
learn this statistical programming language R, which I'm sure you
and your students use all the time. And Scott had
just dropped out of a PhD program where he used
R all the time, so he started tutoring me in R.
So this was all happening while I was pursuing burning
(28:07):
Man Bryant, and so I just wrote Scott off. I
was like, he doesn't seem to like to travel, he's
dismissive of people who go to Bernie Man. And I
was really focused on this, you know, prom date crush
of Bernie Man Brian. But I ended up seeing a
dating coach myself, and that's something that was so critical
for me because I was just sitting there saying, why
am I repeating the same habits over and over again?
(28:27):
Why am I chasing these guys who don't want me?
And through that exercise, we really thought about how I
wanted my future partner to make me feel, and it
was things like appreciate it, desired, smart, funny and Bernieman
Brian didn't make me feel any of those things. He
made me feel insecure, self conscious, anxious, not good enough.
But I reflected on the fact that this guy at
(28:48):
work that was teaching me are did make me feel
those things, and so it was seeing things through a
new light, understanding actually how great relationships make you feel,
which was different from what I'd thought it was before.
That really helped me shift my attention to this guy
at work, kind of convince him to ask me on
a date, and then the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yay yay.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And that was in part because you are using relationship
science to figure out what really mattered. Right in the
case of Scott, you were kind of paying attention to
the stuff that matters more But what I want to
focus on now is like, what are some strategies that
our listeners can use if they want to start dating
in a happier, more evidence based way. Starting with this
idea that no matter how you meet the person in
the beginning, you should really get together in real life.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yes, So we talked with this idea of pen paling
and how people spend way too long talking before they
meet up in person and they think, oh, well, I
need to find out all this information and see if
we have chemistry over text, and that's just misinformed. At Hinge,
we actually found that the sweet spot is transitioning from
the app to the date after three days, and so
really you don't need a ton of information before you
(29:54):
talk on the phone or do a FaceTime, and instead
it's about meeting up in person and seeing what the
chemistry is so that you avoid that monet effect of
assuming all these qualities about the person that aren't there
and then ultimately being disappointed.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And so I see why that could be really valuable.
But my guess this is that one of the reasons
people are pen paling is that like.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
They're a little scared, right, there's something like friction.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
About getting together in real life, and so any great
tips for that first in real life date. Maybe what
are some conversation tips that you might share.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Sure, So one of the conversation tips that I'm a
big fan of is this idea of in mediaures, which
is a Latin term that really means when you're watching
a play and it starts in the middle of the action.
And so far too often on first dates people are
just in the shallow end of the pool. They're doing
all the small talk, Oh, how did you get here,
(30:42):
where do you live, when did you move to the city,
what did you study in school? How many siblings you have?
Stuff that is so boring that you've probably said a
million times, and you're not really having an experience with somebody.
So I love the idea of walking into a date
and saying, I was listening to the most interesting episode
of the Happiness Lab on my way here, and you'll
never guess about this term that I learned about our
(31:03):
psychological immune system. And then the person's like, okay, yeah,
let's talk about that interesting thing. You can always backtrack
later and ask about school and siblings and things like that,
but just understanding that you're going to have such a
better time if you have a real conversation about real things,
and that the small talk can just lead to burnout
because you feel like you're just repeating yourself over and
(31:24):
over again. So that's one tip, is to start in
the middle of things. And then another mistake that I
see people making on first dates is they're so focused
on being interesting that they talk a lot about themselves.
But it's much more important to be interested, and so
often the best conversationalists are the people who really just
ask questions because they make the other person feel so interesting,
(31:45):
and then that person likes being around them.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
You've also described one technique we can use to do
that better, what you call shift and support.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So a lot of times when people are having a
conversation and they mean well, somebody mentions something like, oh,
I'm going to Lake Tahoe this summer, and then the
person wants to add on to that and they say, oh,
I've been to Lake Tahoe. Here's what happened on my trip,
And so they feel like they're contributing to the conversation,
but with they're really doing is shifting the focus back
to themselves. What actually makes people feel really good is
(32:14):
when you give a support response where you help them
go deeper. So you say, wow, how did you choose
like Tahoe? Have you ever been there before? What are
you most excited about it? And that's really what a
great journalist does, a great interviewer, a great conversationalist is
they're asking questions that help you go deeper into your
life experience, and that ends up making you feel really
heard and seen and important, and that helps separate a
(32:37):
great conversationalist from the rest.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And so that was tip number one. We need to
get together in real life. We need to go deeper
when we do get together in real life. Your tip
number two is that we need to shift our dating
mindset from the evaluative to the experiential.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
So often when I either hear from my clients about
their dates, or even just being next to a couple
on a first date in a restaurant or a coffee shop,
you can just really tell that people are in this
evaluative mindset, almost as if they are interviewing somebody for
a job or they themselves are on a job interview.
So the evaluative mind set is that you have a
mental checklist in your head where you say things like
(33:14):
are they good enough for me? Do they have a
good enough job? Do they seem to like their family enough?
And it's almost like they're going through checking all these
boxes seeing if that person fulfills their open role, their
job description. Instead, I really want people to shift to
the experiential mindset, where you're present in the moment, where
you're really paying attention to how this person makes you feel,
(33:36):
what side of you they bring out, because it doesn't
really matter what the person is like on paper. There
are people out there that have the perfect resume, the
perfect biodata, but when you're with them, you don't feel
good around them. And that's something that I teach my
clients all the time is that I know you are
really excited about that girl, but when you've gone out
with her, every time, you come home feeling worse about yourself.
(33:58):
So who cares that she had the perfect profile? Who
cares that you always thought you would marry a lawyer?
This girl isn't it? And that actually leads to my
next tip, which is about the post state eight. So
the post eight eight is a series of questions that
I came up with for my client who is really
struggling with this where she just could not let go
of this mindset of a valuative dating. And so she
(34:19):
had these a questions which I can tell you, and
she would save them on her phone and on the uber.
During her walk home from the date, she had to
ask herself these questions, and the questions are things like
what side of me did they bring out? How did
my body feel during the date? Stiff, relax, or something
in between. Do I feel more energized or de energized
than I did before the date? Is there something about
(34:41):
them that I'm curious about? Did they make me laugh?
Did I feel heard? Did I feel attractive in their presence?
And did I feel captivated, bored or something in between?
And the research behind this is the same reason why
gratitude journals work. So we use gratitude journals because if
you know at the end of the day you have
to write down three things that you feel grateful for,
(35:02):
throughout the day, you're looking for those things and that's
how the post date eight works as well. If you
have to answer after the date, did they make me laugh?
Did I feel heard? You're going to pay attention to
that during the date and so this really is a
technique that my clients use to really focus on their
experience of being with the person, and that helps them
a say no faster to dates that don't make them
(35:24):
feel good about themselves, but also be say yes to
those slow burn people where they think, yes, it wasn't
the sparkiest person, but actually did feel really attractive in
their presence. It actually brought out a very intellectual side
of me that I love to explore, and so train
your brain to look for the stuff that matters.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And in a way, this is like part of a
broader idea, which is like we should sort of like
treat ourselves like a scientist on a date rather than
kind of like a lawyer across examiner. We're kind of
really trying to pay attention to the data as we
go through.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yes, I've never put that thought together, but I do
often like to say date like a scientist. And the
reason why I'm so passionate about that is because what
scientists do, of course, is they have a hypothesis and
they test it and they're willing to be proven wrong.
Far too often in dating, people have a hypothesis and
they assume it's correct, and they never test it. So
(36:15):
I've literally worked with people who say I need someone
who has a graduate degree, but when I really talk
to them, it's more that they need somebody who's intellectually
curious versus having this specific form of an advanced degree.
So then the way to test it is, can you
go out with this guy who you know didn't even
graduate college but actually is super smart, is self taught?
(36:35):
Is reading a book a week? And does that give
you the same feeling? And so I do that with
people with height too, and they assume I need a
really tall person or I need someone with this background.
And so I love the idea of dating like a
scientist because it's really a way of saying, my so
called type may not be the person who makes me
happiest long term, and it's a way to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And so tip number four is one that I really
like and resonates with other things we've talked about in
the Happiness Lab, which is that to have a better,
happier date, you need to add a bit more play.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Why is play so important for happier dates?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yes, I love this one too, because I would say
I'm at a point in my life now being a
new mom where I am getting to play a lot more,
and I realized that it's just the highlight of my day.
It's so cheesy and cliche, but when I feel stressed,
just giving my daughter a bath and just really being
present in the moment and being silly with her, that
is so much more fun, and that is such a
break from the rest of my very work oriented daily life.
(37:29):
And so when people are on a date and they
can bring a sense of play, it's really a sense
of we're in a small world and we're creating something together.
We're having a novel experience. We're showing vulnerable sides of ourselves.
So if you're listening and you're somebody out there who
struggles because you come across as too serious, how can
you actually design a date that really brings out your
(37:51):
silly or playful side. So if you're not a good
ice skater, maybe you should be going ice skating right
now and you can fall and make fun of yourself
and it'll help emphasize that side of yourself. Or even
I had somebody who I interviewed for my book who
liked to go on dates where they ate dumplings and
they would have soy sauce, stripping from and there was
just something about taking yourself less seriously that really allowed
(38:13):
two people to have fun, to connect, and to really
create those novel experiences that are memorable and that we're
all seeking.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
It also seems like this fits with your advice that
we heard before the break about being a little bit
more vulnerable, right if you get the soy sauce on
your face, or you're flubbing, you know, your ice skating challenge,
Like these are the kinds of things that could actually
endear people to you rather than kind of make people
question you.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Absolutely. I think that so many people out there, and
I'm sure some part of me feels this way too,
is like, the world will like me more if I
seem perfect. The world will like me more if I
weigh this certain amount that's conventionally attractive, if I always
look perfectly put together, if I have this really fancy
job title, and we just think that, oh, if we
have this sense of achievement, if we really play into
(38:56):
conventional levels of success, then people will like us. But actually,
what most people like is somebody who makes them feel
comfortable in their own skin, somebody who doesn't make them
feel worse in comparison, and so really, how how can
you foster that sense of this is who I am,
warts and all, and I accept myself and I'm also
(39:17):
willing to accept you, because at the end of the day,
what is a relationship other than deciding I accept you
for who you are, good and bad.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And that is a nice transition to tip number five,
which is that you might think you know what you want,
but the research kind of shows that you're wrong, and
therefore we might need to get a little bit better
about our permissible pet peeves. What do you mean by
permissible pet peeves?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I really started thinking about this a few years ago
when I met this woman who was like, Logan, I'm
thirty six, I'm ready to find love. I'll go out
with anyone who you recommend, unless he's a mouth breather.
And I was like, what, what is even mouth breathing?
And so I figured out what that was, but I
just couldn't believe that she had decided that this idea
of somebody who breathed through their mouth instead of their
nose was a deal breaker, a reason why she definitely
(40:01):
couldn't be with someone. And so that really led me
to this idea of permissible pet peeves. So yes, a
lot of us have pet peeves, something that annoys us,
perhaps more than it annoys the average person. But of
course it's not a fundamental incompatibility that means that she
shouldn't be with this person long term. So she is
confusing a permissible pet peeve for a deal breaker. And
(40:24):
this has actually been pretty big in pop culture in
the last year or so. People talk about this idea
of the ick. So the ick is that you are
on a date with someone, you're really into them, maybe
you're thinking about going home with them, and then all
of a sudden they go to pay for the bill
and you hear shh, and that sound is the sound
of a velcrow wallet opening up, and the person decides
(40:46):
that velcrow wallet in the pocket of a thirty five
year old man gives you the ick, and now you're
going to run away. And I know these stories are
funny and comedians are you know, getting a lot of
sets out of this, but it's ridiculous. Who cares if
somebody as a velcro wallet. Who cares if somebody wears
socks with sandals. There's no way that that means that
you can't be in a great long term relationship. We
just know that those things are not correlated with long
(41:08):
term relationship and success. So if you are somebody out
there who has a lot of things like this, and
I encourage you to make a list of all of
your quote unquote deal breakers, the reason why you can't
be with someone, and to move as many of them
as possible into the permissible pet peeves category. And so
if you have asthma and someone smokes, that's a real
deal breaker. If you are Jewish and your partner is
(41:30):
Christian and you both want to raise kids in your
own religion, then yes, that's probably a deal breaker. But
many of the things, including mouth breathing, are not deal breakers.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
And this gets to something else you've talked about, which
is that we have to get over this idea of
finding the type right that we might just be wrong
about the kinds of things that really matter.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, so that really goes back to my idea of
date like a scientist. So so many people think I
know exactly what I want, I just need to find them.
That's a very common refrain with people that I work with.
And so the problem there is they've decided, oh, well,
I know my type and I need to find that person.
And what they don't understand is that they've actually dated
that type many times and it has worked out, and
(42:09):
so maybe they're so called type is not actually the
best fit for them long term. And so a lot
of the work that I did myself that I do
with my clients is helping them date like a scientist
and see what type of person does make them happiest
long term. So if you are the life of the
party person and you think you are drawn to that too, well,
guess what, it hasn't worked out for you so far.
(42:30):
Maybe actually need someone who's a bit more of a
homebody because they balance you out, they ground you, and
they're not competing with you for space. And so often
when people have been struggling with love for a while,
I really like to investigate their so called type and
encourage them to date like a scientist and see if
there's another type that ends up making them happier long term.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It also seems to me that people have these like
kind of ideas of deal breakers that like, when you
really kind of look at them carefully, maybe seem like shallow.
Like I know on the internet right now, there's a
lot of like no short guys kind of vibe and like,
that's just the kind of thing that you're talking about.
When it comes to this stuff that we might want
to see, is this really a deal breaker?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Might be more permissible than we think.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah, so okay, going back to pet peeves, that is
one of my pet peeves is when people are way
too focused on height. And I can tell you as
someone who is married to a short king, I highly
recommend it. And what happens is that with dating apps
you can set filters, for example height, So many women,
when they're setting up their hinge profile, they just think,
oh height, Yeah, it'd be great to be married to
(43:29):
someone who's tall, So I'll set my height filter at
six feet or higher. But what they don't understand is
that in the United States only fourteen percent of men
are six foot or higher, and so they are automatically
filtering out eighty six percent of potential matches. Then they
meet me at a party and they hold up their
phone and they say, logan, where is he? Where's my husband?
And it's like, yeah, well he's not even showing up
(43:50):
because you filtered him out. So I think height is
a great example of how people make superficial initial choices,
and then they don't understand that they're actually preventing themselves
from meeting great people. Whereas if that same woman were
at a bar sitting across from a guy and had
a fantastic conversation and then he stood up and he
was fined nine, I don't think that she would be
(44:10):
running for the hills. I think that she would understand
that we, as we said, are experiential goods and if
that guy made her feel good, who cares what the
height is on his driver's license.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And so you've been coaching so many people with dating,
do you have those strong sense that kind of using
these behavioral science strategies really helps people.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Yes, absolutely, so I think this idea of dating blind
spots is really powerful. So we all have things that
we think are holding us back, but it's possible that
the things that are actually holding us back are things
that we don't have access to at all. And so
when I first work with a client, we spend the
first session doing a audit of their relationship history, and
(44:49):
we really even start at middle school or high school.
So were you a late bloomer, were you a serial monogamous?
Were you a South Asian man at a majority white school.
How did all these stories really add up to how
you feel about yourself and how you've dated? And so
what I'm looking for in these conversations is patterns that
these people keep making. So, for example, somebody who ignores
(45:10):
red flags, why are they ignoring those red flags? What
are they getting out of those relationships that are not
a good fit? And what I really try to do
is not give them the advice that all their friends
give them, which is you're perfect. There's just nobody great
out there like Leve. Will happen to you when it happens.
And I actually like to say to them, Hey, you're
making a series of strategic errors. I can help you
(45:31):
identify what they are. I can give you a plan
for how to overcome them. I can give you accountability
so that you actually show up and make these changes,
and then I'm going to celebrate your successes with you.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I love that Logan is working so hard to help
us overturn our relationship myths, and that she's bringing science to.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Our search for love.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
We've covered a lot of ground, so let's quickly recap
her top tips. Tip Number one, meet up in person
if you've matched with a person on an app, try
to get on a date as soon as you can,
and on that date, ditch the small talk and get
to know each other more deeply. Tip number two is
to stop confusing a first date with a job interview.
Don't rate yourspective partner's salary, career opportunities, and life goals.
(46:12):
Those things aren't the important metrics you think. The third
tip is what Logan calls the post day eight. Ask
yourself her eight questions about how a date made you feel.
If you're feeling relaxed and energized, that person's probably a keeper.
Tip number four is to have fun and be goofy.
You show off your best self when you're a little
lighthearted and silly. And the final tip is to park
(46:35):
those pet peeves. Don't write off a romantic partner just
because they slurp their soup or laugh too loudly at
the movies. Those are just insignificant poptholes and what could
be a long, long road of lifetime love. As Valentine's
Day draws closer, we'll be continuing are how to advice
on relationships and will be joined by two psychologists who
(46:56):
look for scientific clues to love In some unlikely research material,
the plots of romcom movies.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
That's all.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, doctor Laurie Santo's here here at the Happiness Lab.
We spend a lot of time talking about the happiness
benefits of being a fan, and it just so happens
that another Pushkin podcast has gone deep into this topic.
It's a show called Against the Rules, hosted by best
selling author Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis is the brains behind
books like Moneyball, The Big Shore, and Liar's Poker. This
(00:44):
season of Against the Rules is all about sports fandom,
but also sports gambling, which was legalized in the US
just a few years ago. From a happiness perspective, this
is a fascinating topic. Michael talks with gambling addicts, but
also pro basketball stars, Vegas bookies, and even experts in
casino design. I also get to make it appearance. I
(01:05):
really enjoyed our conversation, So if you're a little bit curious,
I urge you to check out Against the Rules and
subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Welcome to February.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's a month of cold weather but warm hearts thanks
to Valentine's Day. Love is in the air this time
of year, so we're devoting two shows of our new
how to season to the science of relationships, and we're
kicking things off with dating. Many of us feel like
we're getting dating all wrong. We chase the wrong people entirely,
or we chase the right people in the wrong way.
(01:48):
But what if we used science to find the ideal partner.
That's what we'll be exploring today, how to date like
a scientist, and we have the perfect expert to help
us down those relationship lab codes. Logan Uri is the
director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. She's
also the dating coach for the new Netflix show The
Later Daters, and the author of an awesome book, How
(02:09):
to Not Die Alone. With a CV like that, you
might think Logan's been a dating with since high school,
but you'd be wrong.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I haven't always been great at finding love for myself,
but I think the fact that I was unlucky in
love for many years actually makes me better at what
I do, because I think for people who met the
love of their life in high school or were just
so beautiful that people were falling all over them their
whole lives, I think it's harder to relate to the
experience that most people go through, which is that finding
a partner is really challenging. There's a lot of rejection involved.
(02:39):
It's just a difficult thing that many of us go through.
And I feel like, even though now I've been happily
married and with my partner for a long time, I'm
really glad that I had those experiences so that I
can relate to the average daters experience.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Any dating was that you'd be willing to share for
the show to give a sense of the fact that
you had challenged it dating early on.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
The thing that comes to mind for me is this
story that in my book I referred to as burning
Man Brian definitely not his real name, not Brian. It
really has to do with my anxious attachment. And so
I had a trend when I was dating where if
somebody rejected me, instead of saying, oh, we're not a
fit or that person's not interested in me, I would say, oh, well,
if they rejected me, they must be better than me,
(03:18):
and I should try to convince them to be with me.
So when I met this person at Burning Man and
we had this pretty epic love affair, and then I
came back and I was like, Okay, well, now we're
both back in San Francisco. Of course, we're just going
to start dating because we had so much fun at
Burning Man, and he was not interested in that at all.
And so instead of just understanding that not only was
he not interested, but also not really a good fit
(03:39):
for real life, I set out on this goal to
convince him to be with me. And so the more
he pulled away with his avoidant attachment style, the more
I pursued him. And that was really my definition of love.
And I just remember sitting on my friend's couch, crying,
why won't he be with me? Why is he rejecting me?
Why am I not good enough? And really trying to
apply all these lessons from other aspects of my life,
(04:01):
like getting my dream job or getting the apartment I wanted,
And you just can't do that with love. It's not
the kind of thing where more effort always tell someone Okay,
well then I should be with you. And so I
was lucky enough to about a year later, find my
now husband, Scott, who coincidentally worked in your lab when
he was in college. But yes, really learning the lessons
(04:24):
of what a secure partner looks like and understanding that
a lot of the traits that this Burning man Brian
guy had were red flags, but instead I was just like,
how can I convince him to be with me?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's always your this wonderful example, because I think when
we see people who are experts on relationship were giving
lots of relationship advice, you might assume that they were
kind of born with those instincts. But you've argued that
that's really not the case, that this is something we
can learn.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Absolutely, that's a big part of my work is this
idea that we're born knowing how to love but not
how to date, and that dating is really challenging. But
the good news is it's a skill and you can
learn it. And so dating as we know it pre
apps really was invented around eighteen nineties, so this was
really when women started working outside of the house and
meeting people on their own. So before that, marriages really
(05:09):
came about through a matchmaker or through you know, my
dad and your dad decided that we live next door
to each other, we should combine our parcels of land,
or my dad gave your dad twelve camels for your
hand in marriage, and things like that. And so nowadays,
in the days of dating apps and really the individualistic
culture that we're in, it's a huge burden on the
(05:31):
person to figure out who they should be with. And
so when people feel like, you know, Logan, this is
probably weird to say, but I just wish I had
an arranged marriage. I feel like my mom or someone
else could decide better than me. I don't think that
that's crazy at all. I think the fact that we
as individuals need to make this really hard choice that's
going to have a huge impact on our overall health, happiness,
(05:52):
and life satisfaction is actually something that we should think about.
And for anyone who's having a hard time with dating,
I hear you. It is hard, but it's also a
skill and you can get better at it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And one of the insights that you brought, which I
love so much, is really resonates with this show, is
that one of the kinds of things we can bring
in is all the sites from behavioral science talk about
how behavioral science can help us date better.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I feel like there's just so much great work in
two fields, the fields of relationship science, which is the
study of how we love, and the field of behavioral science,
the study of how we make decisions. And so through
my work, I really like to combine the best insights
from both of those fields and use them to help
people make better decisions in love. And so if you
actually break down getting into a relationship, it's a series
(06:36):
of decisions. Am I ready to date? Who should I date?
Should we become exclusive, should we move in together? Should
we get married? And if you really understand behavioral science
and the things that get in our way around making decisions,
then you can actually overcome some of the blind spots
holding you back from finding love.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And in your book you've so nicely argued that we
need to get over these blind spots if we really
want to do better when it comes to dating. And
one of the blind spots that you've brought up is
our kind of urge to relationshop. What is relationshopping and
how can we kind of deal with this challenge?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So researchers talk about this idea of relationshipping, which is
the process of getting into a romantic relationship. But in
the last decade or so, they've noticed this concept of
relation shopping, shopping for a partner as if you would
shop for a good And why that doesn't really work
is because there's this really interesting concept talking about experiential
(07:29):
goods versus searchable goods. So searchable goods are things like
a new camera or getting a new speaker, something like that,
where you can say what size do I want, what
price am I willing to pay? How good is the
battery life, how quickly can it be here? And you
can really break it down into its parts. Experiential goods
are things like wine or movies where you and I
(07:51):
might experience them completely differently, and it's not about what
they are, it's about the feelings that they bring out
in us. And so it's really important when people are
dating to understand that people are experiential goods, they're not
searchable goods. And so when people come into my dating
coaching practice and they say, Okay, I know exactly what
I want. I want a skinny five foot six Jewish redhead,
(08:14):
I'm like, no, you're not buying a pair of headphones.
You're searching for a life partner. And so it's much
less about those resume traits. It's much less about what
you just see if you know someone two dimensionally, and
much more about the experience of being with them and
what side of you they bring out.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And I imagine that this kind of bias can get
even more tripped up in the days of kind of
dating apps and social media. You talk about how relationshopping
can maybe get worse, or how it's even more of
a challenge that we need to pay attention to if
we're on apps like this.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
So for a long time, I've noticed this idea of
people on social media really having this feeling of compare
and despair. So we all know that on Instagram people
post the highlight reels of their life. Look at my
child and her adorable Halloween costume, even though she was
shrieking before and afterwards. Or look at this amazing sunset
walk on the beach of my vacation. Meanwhile, you and
(09:05):
your boyfriend are about to break up. And so I
think for many people there's a feeling of I'm not
good enough. Everyone else has found love except me, and
Instagram gives them that feeling. But I've also seen something
in the last two years crop up on TikTok, which
is this idea of date entertainment. So people go on
these dates and they cannot wait to get home to say,
(09:26):
ladies and gentlemen, I had the worst possible date. You'll
never guess he showed up twenty minutes late. He smelled
like this. He ordered all this food, then I had
to pay for it, And so there's a feeling of
I want to go viral. One of the easiest ways
to go viral is to share a really negative story.
And so what I'm often dealing with is singles who
are so negative on dating because the content that they're
(09:48):
consuming on TikTok is really telling them there's no one
out there and dating sucks.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And you could so see why this is a problem, right,
because if your expectations are like, oh, this is going
to go terrible, I imagine this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy
when you actually go on a date, right, is that
you kind of change all your priors about how bad
people are, So you might the normal negativity bias we
bring to everything might be getting even worse when you're
going dates.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yeah, I feel like a couple things could be happening, definitely,
the negativity bias. Then there's also a lot of people
who are just not dating at all. And so this
is something that I've noticed even in the last few months,
is this idea of I've quit dating, and that's just
not a term that I really heard before this summer.
So it used to be like, oh, you know, I'm
focusing on my graduate degree or I'm moving, so I'm
(10:30):
gonna like be more into dating when I get there.
But now it's this binarya of I'm dating or I've
quit dating. And I think that there's something harmful about that,
where people really are having an identity as someone who's
not dating instead of I'm someone who's open to connections
even though maybe it's not their priority right now.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And so another bias that you've talked about is what
you've referred to as the Monet effect.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
What's the Monee effect?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So the Monee effect is something that I named because
I love the movie Clueless. And in the movie Clueless,
who doesn't really yes, Oh it's amazing. In the movie Clueless,
there's the popular girl named Cher, and Ty, who's the
new girl, says, Hey, what do you think about our
class made Amber? And Cher says, Oh, she's a full
on Monet. It's like a painting. From far away, it's okay,
(11:16):
but up close it's a big old mess. And so
she's of course referring to the Impressionist painter Monet. And
what happens is that when our brains lack information, they
fill in the information in a positive way, hoping for
a great outcome. And so this actually makes people seem
more desirable than they are. So if somebody on Hinge
says I love music, then in your brain you fill in, oh,
(11:39):
I bet they must love the same music as me.
And this is especially a problem when people pen pal
talk to somebody on hinge for so long without meeting
up with them, because even if when they meet up
that person is fantastic, they're not going to match the
fantasy of them that they created in their head. And
so the point is to understand when you have less information,
(11:59):
you fill in the gaps in an overly positive way.
This creates a fantasy, and then it ultimately leads to
disappointment that could have been avoided if you just met
the person or talk to them on the phone sooner.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's time for a quick break. But when we return,
logan will.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Help us figure out how to avoid those problematic dating types,
the romanticizer, the maximizer, or even the dreaded undatable. The
happiness lab will be right back to date. Like a scientist,
you got to start by being realistic, as that famous
(12:33):
Bell curve might suggest, even in love, most things tend
to be in the middle, and that means there probably
isn't just one soule me for you on a planet
of billions of people. Likewise, it's unlikely that you are
the most awkward and unlovable person in existence. Dating expert
logan Uri says a lot of people still fall for
these false ideas, so much so that she uses a
(12:55):
wee bit of adult language when she talks about it.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I've categorized people into the three dating tendencies, and
if people are interested, they can take the quiz on
my website. And what they all have in common is
unrealistic expectation. So first one the romanticizer. They have unrealistic
expectations of relationships. So if you're listening and you're the
kind of person who says things like there's one person
out there for everyone, I'm single because I just haven't
(13:19):
met my soulmate yet, I really want the happily ever after,
well guess what you might be a romanticizer. And the
ideas behind romanticizers come from a lot of different places
in pop culture. They come from Disney movies, they come
from rom comms, they come from what we just talked
about social media and these perfect images that we project.
But the issue is with the romanticizer that they don't
(13:40):
understand a few things. One is that the person who
might make you happiest long term may not come in
the physical package that you're expecting, and so if you
are only expecting you know, your Prince Eric or your
Prince Charming, then you might miss out on a lot
of great potential partners. The other thing is that we
know from psychologists Renee Franniuk that people fit into either
(14:02):
a soulmate mindset or a work it out mindset. The
soulmate mindset is the idea that if you find the
right person, everything will work out. That's where relationship satisfaction
comes from. Instead, the work and out mindset is the
belief that relationship success derives from putting in work. And
So for the romanticizers out there who say, I don't
(14:22):
want to be on a dating app because that's not romantic.
I want to go to a farmer's market and reach
for the tomato the same time as my soulmate and
fall happily ever after, what I like to say to
them is that what's romantic is that you met someone
and you want to commit to them, and you're going
to build a relationship. Who cares how you met. If
you're together for fifty years, the day you met is
(14:43):
point zero zero five to five percent of the relationship.
And so get over that we met story and just
focus on meeting someone.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You've also argued that we need to get over what
you call the spark. In fact, I think you have
a little bit of a strong motto about this. What's
the spark and what's the big problem?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Okay, I don't know your rules over there about cursing,
so I'll just say my motto around this is this
idea of fuck the spark. And this is truly something
that when I was writing the book I felt passionate about.
Since the book has come out, it's kind of taken
on a life of its own, which I feel great about.
And fuck the spark is the idea that people will
go on a really good first date, the person will
be a great fit with them, there's a lot of
(15:20):
reasons why they get along. But then this person will
say to me, I'm not going to see them again. Logan,
I just didn't feel the spark. And so the spark
has become this all encompassing word that means instant chemistry, fireworks, butterflies,
and people are giving up on a lot of great
potential partners because they didn't initially feel that. But the
research shows that only eleven percent of couples say that
(15:43):
they fell in love at first sight, and actually a
lot of couples take time to get together. So the
first myth of the spark is that if you don't
feel it in the beginning, it's never going to grow.
That's absolutely not true. Over time, people like each other
more because of the mere exposure of fact, where when
something's more familiar, we like it more. So, yes, the
(16:03):
spark can grow over time. The second myth of the
spark is that if you feel it, it's necessarily a
good thing. That is also not true. I can tell
you I often meet people where I'm like, wow, did
we have a little flirty dynamic there? And then three
of my friends say the same thing about that person,
and we're like, Oh, it's not us, it's that person
in particular. They're very sparky. They give that feeling to
(16:26):
many people, and sometimes it can actually be a sign
of something negative. It can be a sign of somebody
avoidant who makes you feel excited because they keep pulling
away and you don't know how they feel about you,
and that actually causes anxiety that you misinterpret as butterflies.
It can also be a sign of narcissism or some
negative behavior. The third myth of the spark is that
(16:46):
if you have a spark in the beginning, the relationship
is viable. That's also not true. Many unhappily married or
now divorced couples once started with the spark. So it's
enough to get you into a relationship, but not enough
to keep you there. And that's really why I promote
this idea of fuck the spark, go after the slow burn.
And I feel like I married a slow burn myself.
(17:09):
Slow burn is someone who may not be the sparkist.
They may not be the person that shines on every
first date or is the center of attention at a party,
but they're a deeply good person. They're reliable, they would
be an incredible life partner. And so I really try
to train people to, yes, the spark is fun, enjoy it,
it's real, but don't cement your whole life and your
long term relationship about it, and really give these slow
(17:31):
burn people a chance.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You argue that there's a second tendency we can fall
into in that some people themselves often fall into, which
is being a maximizer.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
What's a maximizer.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, So the second of the three dating tendencies is
the maximizer. And living in Silicon Valley and having a
lot of clients who are in the New York area,
I feel like I coach a ton of maximizers. And
so the story with the maximizer is that they have
unrealistic expectations of their partner, and they're the kind of
person who says, I can research my way into finding
(18:01):
the perfect person. And so for them, if they want
to find a really good vacuum, they're going to read
fifty reviews on it and then feel like, yep, I
analyze all of this, I can find the perfect vacuum.
And then they think that they can do that with dating.
But it's impossible in dating to date every possible person.
And as we talked about with searchable versus experiential goods,
(18:21):
it's just not the same thing. And so maximizers really
struggle because they feel like, Okay, I've dated some great people.
Now I just want to combine the best traits of
all of them and find that person. And they always
feel like I need to keep searching because then I'll
find somebody else out there. And what ends up happening
is that a lot of maximizers keep rejecting people or
not accepting someone who might be great, and then at
(18:43):
a certain age they look back and they say, Wow,
I wish that I had married one of the great
people I had met before.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So what's the solution to not kind of falling prey
to maximizing. Is there another good strategy we should use?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes, So there's an excellent framework by the cognitive psychologist
Herbert Simon who talks about maximizers and satisficers. And so
we just talked about maximizers, but a satisficer, which is
the portmanteau of satisfy and suffice. They have standard, but
they're not overly concerned about finding something else out there.
(19:14):
And so when I say to satisfies to people, they
often hear a different s word, which is settle, and
they get really defensive about this loogan. Everyone else found
their love story. Why do you want me to settle?
But satisficing is not about settling. It's about having a standard,
which can be very high, and then when you meet
someone who satisfies that standard, then you say, great, I'm
(19:35):
going to build a relationship with them. I'm going to
build a life with them instead of doing what maximizers do,
which is fine, that amazing person, and then say, wow,
well if they exist, what else might exist. And what
people get wrong is that they think maximizers make better decisions,
but that's not what we've found. We found that maximizers
make good decisions and then feel bad about them. Satisfiers
(19:57):
also make good decisions, but then they feel good about them,
and so what's more important being right or being happy?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It also seems like this act of feeling good about
your decision means you're going to do the work all
long term relationships are going to need right where you're
kind of investing in your partner a little bit more
over time, you know, kind of working it through. If
you're a maximizer and you quickly go to like, oh,
I must have made the wrong decision because there's this
perfect person out there, so if you mess up in
this tiny way, you must not be that person. It
seems like ultimately, satisfiers are doing something that really helps
(20:26):
them invest in the relationship long term too.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Absolutely, And I think, you know, since doing the research
for my book and learning about this, I've really tried
to become a satisfy store in a lot more aspects
of my life. So, for example, when I needed to
buy a car during the pandemic, I understood that I
wanted something used, I wanted a hybrid. I had a
certain price in mind, and I went to two dealerships
and when I found the car that I wanted, I
(20:50):
just bought it and I felt great about it. Ever since,
I think that there's a world where I had maximized
that decision and I had spent much longer researching and
either wound up with the same car or a different car,
which I felt worse about. And so I truly think
that this is a huge thing that people can do
to feel happier in their lives, is to understand that
you can set standards and satisfy them. You don't need
(21:11):
to always wonder what else is out there, because that's
the nagging question in your head that actually robs the
joy from your life.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And so that's the problem of being too much of
a maximizer. A final issue that you've brought up, which
actually is one that I resonated with a lot when
I think back to my old dating life. Is kind
of a belief that we have in ourselves that can
leave us astray. It's this idea that we are undatable.
And you had a really interesting incident recently with a
newsletter where you saw just how prevalent this bias was.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yes. So the third tendency that I've identified is called
the hesitator, and this is someone who has unrealistic expectations
of themselves. So if you're listening and you're not even
dating at all, and you're single and you might want
to be in a relationship, then you are a hesitator.
And so a hesitator is someone who feels like, I'm
just not ready to be out there. I'll be ready
when I lose ten pounds, when I have a more
(22:03):
impressive job, when I clean up my apartment. There's always
a future state where you will be lovable, not lovable
right now. And what's so sad is that hesitators really
miss out on a few things. They underestimate the opportunity
cost of not dating, which is you don't get better
at dating and you don't figure out who you want
to be with.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And you also had an incident recently where I think
you saw how prevalent this one type of this hesitator
strategy is.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yes. So I was working with a coaching client and
they mentioned this idea of feeling undtable. They felt like
there was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that
they weren't lovable and that they couldn't go out there
and date because somebody would reject them. And it really
stuck with me. So I wrote to my weekly newsletter
and I said, do you feel like you're undtable? Right
back to me with some of the reasons why you
(22:50):
might feel this way, And out of every newsletter that
I've ever sin so over two hundred and fifty newsletters,
this one got the most responses because people just felt
so seen by it, and they wrote back and they
said things like, I'm undtable because I have an STI
I'm undtable because I've never been in a romantic relationship before,
because I've been in too many romantic relationships. I'm undatable
(23:12):
because I have chronic health issues. I'm undtable because I
had cancer in my twenties and I don't know how
to talk about it, and just so many emails coming
from a really deep place where people felt like there
was something fundamentally wrong with them that meant that no
one would ever love them. And then I put together
some future newsletters that talked about how actually it's our vulnerability,
(23:33):
it's our flaws that make us feel human and that
other people can relate to. And I told the story
of a good friend of mine who is a former alcoholic,
and he used to not date because he didn't want
to have to talk about why he was ordering juice
instead of a drink, and he was really afraid of it.
But at a certain point he just said, you know what,
I'm actually really proud of my sobriety and I'm just
(23:55):
going to talk about it from a place of strength.
And so he really owned his narrative of Hey, I
used to struggle with this, here's when I hit rock bottom.
Now I actually have taken control of my life. I've
been sober for seven years. And sometimes he would talk
about it on dates and girls didn't like it. But
at a certain point he talked to someone and she
was like, oh, I also have a bunch of issues.
You have baggage I have baggage. Our baggage matches and
(24:17):
it made her much more comfortable. And now they are
happily together. They own a house, they have a dog,
they have two kids, and it really is the story
of somebody who was willing to be vulnerable to share
the thing that they thought made them undateable, and that
actually made them easier to connect with and it led
to an amazing relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It reminds me of the psychological bias known as the
beautiful mess effect, right that we think that our vulnerabilities
are going to be awkward, everybody can see them as
red flags or make us undatable, But in fact our
messes are in some sense beautiful to other people like
and it winds up in some weird way making us
more attractive rather than less.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I haven't heard that term before, but I really like
it because I feel like Brene Brown has been putting
out this message for a long time. Your vulnerability is
what attracts people to you. The thing that makes you
think you're unlovable is actually making you very lovable. Who
doesn't love a beautiful mess?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
A beautiful mess can make a beautiful partner. But when
we get back from the break Logan will share her
cautionary tale of how pursuing a guy based on his
looks and vibe almost caused her to miss out on
mister Wright. The Happiness Lab will return in a moment.
Dating expert logan URI's book is called How to Not
(25:31):
Die Alone, and that sums up the focus of her work.
She wants us to find not just a casual hookup,
but a committed relationship. The problem is that we often
confuse a great one night stand for the perfect life partner.
It's an error that Logan herself experienced firsthand.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Okay, yes, let's talk about birdingman Bryan. And so he
really was this prom date archetype. And what is a
prom date. It's somebody who you're attracted to, somebody who's fun,
somebody who you want to dance the night with, take
pictures with, maybe you know, kiss at the end of
the night. And so he really fulfilled that for me
where I was very attracted to him. Was I thinking
about what he would be like as a life partner. No,
(26:10):
a life partner is the kind of person who's reliable.
You can make hard decisions with them. You know that
they will pick up your kid from the dentist and
you're nodding to get a text five minutes before saying, oh,
I totally forgot, can you do it? And So what
I found is that when you're younger and you have crushes,
it's totally fine to be interested in the prom date.
I think that for the early years of our dating history,
(26:33):
that's absolutely fine. But the mistake that people make is
that they don't switch to the life partner mentality soon enough.
And so that's like when I'm talking to women who
are in their early forties and they're talking about dating
a guy who lives in a basement with no windows
and isn't ready for kids yet, I'm just like, well,
you want kids, so I think you really need to
start finding somebody who shares those values.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But you found a way to shift out of that
with your current husband, Scott, my former research assistant. So,
how is Scott like a better life partner? How did
you get you away from sort of prom date model.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah? So I really love the story that I have
with Scott because I feel like it's something that can
help be inspirational to other people because it's not the
traditional love story where we just met day one, love
at first sight and then have been happily ever after
ever since. So we actually first met in college many
years ago, and I just remember this because he added
(27:25):
me on Facebook at the time, which of course was
probably a little bit of flirtation. But I don't remember
meeting him in college after that. And then seven years later,
we were both working at Google and we had lunch
together and we kind of hit it off, but nothing
came out of it. And I even saw him on
Tinder that summer and I swiped left because I was like, ah,
(27:46):
he looks like a bro wearing a backwards hat. I
just wasn't interested at all. But then I wanted to
learn this statistical programming language R, which I'm sure you
and your students use all the time. And Scott had
just dropped out of a PhD program where he used
R all the time, so he started tutoring me in R.
So this was all happening while I was pursuing burning
(28:07):
Man Bryant, and so I just wrote Scott off. I
was like, he doesn't seem to like to travel, he's
dismissive of people who go to Bernie Man. And I
was really focused on this, you know, prom date crush
of Bernie Man Brian. But I ended up seeing a
dating coach myself, and that's something that was so critical
for me because I was just sitting there saying, why
am I repeating the same habits over and over again?
(28:27):
Why am I chasing these guys who don't want me?
And through that exercise, we really thought about how I
wanted my future partner to make me feel, and it
was things like appreciate it, desired, smart, funny and Bernieman
Brian didn't make me feel any of those things. He
made me feel insecure, self conscious, anxious, not good enough.
But I reflected on the fact that this guy at
(28:48):
work that was teaching me are did make me feel
those things, and so it was seeing things through a
new light, understanding actually how great relationships make you feel,
which was different from what I'd thought it was before.
That really helped me shift my attention to this guy
at work, kind of convince him to ask me on
a date, and then the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yay yay.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And that was in part because you are using relationship
science to figure out what really mattered. Right in the
case of Scott, you were kind of paying attention to
the stuff that matters more But what I want to
focus on now is like, what are some strategies that
our listeners can use if they want to start dating
in a happier, more evidence based way. Starting with this
idea that no matter how you meet the person in
the beginning, you should really get together in real life.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yes, So we talked with this idea of pen paling
and how people spend way too long talking before they
meet up in person and they think, oh, well, I
need to find out all this information and see if
we have chemistry over text, and that's just misinformed. At Hinge,
we actually found that the sweet spot is transitioning from
the app to the date after three days, and so
really you don't need a ton of information before you
(29:54):
talk on the phone or do a FaceTime, and instead
it's about meeting up in person and seeing what the
chemistry is so that you avoid that monet effect of
assuming all these qualities about the person that aren't there
and then ultimately being disappointed.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And so I see why that could be really valuable.
But my guess this is that one of the reasons
people are pen paling is that like.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
They're a little scared, right, there's something like friction.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
About getting together in real life, and so any great
tips for that first in real life date. Maybe what
are some conversation tips that you might share.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Sure, So one of the conversation tips that I'm a
big fan of is this idea of in mediaures, which
is a Latin term that really means when you're watching
a play and it starts in the middle of the action.
And so far too often on first dates people are
just in the shallow end of the pool. They're doing
all the small talk, Oh, how did you get here,
(30:42):
where do you live, when did you move to the city,
what did you study in school? How many siblings you have?
Stuff that is so boring that you've probably said a
million times, and you're not really having an experience with somebody.
So I love the idea of walking into a date
and saying, I was listening to the most interesting episode
of the Happiness Lab on my way here, and you'll
never guess about this term that I learned about our
(31:03):
psychological immune system. And then the person's like, okay, yeah,
let's talk about that interesting thing. You can always backtrack
later and ask about school and siblings and things like that,
but just understanding that you're going to have such a
better time if you have a real conversation about real things,
and that the small talk can just lead to burnout
because you feel like you're just repeating yourself over and
(31:24):
over again. So that's one tip, is to start in
the middle of things. And then another mistake that I
see people making on first dates is they're so focused
on being interesting that they talk a lot about themselves.
But it's much more important to be interested, and so
often the best conversationalists are the people who really just
ask questions because they make the other person feel so interesting,
(31:45):
and then that person likes being around them.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
You've also described one technique we can use to do
that better, what you call shift and support.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So a lot of times when people are having a
conversation and they mean well, somebody mentions something like, oh,
I'm going to Lake Tahoe this summer, and then the
person wants to add on to that and they say, oh,
I've been to Lake Tahoe. Here's what happened on my trip,
And so they feel like they're contributing to the conversation,
but with they're really doing is shifting the focus back
to themselves. What actually makes people feel really good is
(32:14):
when you give a support response where you help them
go deeper. So you say, wow, how did you choose
like Tahoe? Have you ever been there before? What are
you most excited about it? And that's really what a
great journalist does, a great interviewer, a great conversationalist is
they're asking questions that help you go deeper into your
life experience, and that ends up making you feel really
heard and seen and important, and that helps separate a
(32:37):
great conversationalist from the rest.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And so that was tip number one. We need to
get together in real life. We need to go deeper
when we do get together in real life. Your tip
number two is that we need to shift our dating
mindset from the evaluative to the experiential.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
So often when I either hear from my clients about
their dates, or even just being next to a couple
on a first date in a restaurant or a coffee shop,
you can just really tell that people are in this
evaluative mindset, almost as if they are interviewing somebody for
a job or they themselves are on a job interview.
So the evaluative mind set is that you have a
mental checklist in your head where you say things like
(33:14):
are they good enough for me? Do they have a
good enough job? Do they seem to like their family enough?
And it's almost like they're going through checking all these
boxes seeing if that person fulfills their open role, their
job description. Instead, I really want people to shift to
the experiential mindset, where you're present in the moment, where
you're really paying attention to how this person makes you feel,
(33:36):
what side of you they bring out, because it doesn't
really matter what the person is like on paper. There
are people out there that have the perfect resume, the
perfect biodata, but when you're with them, you don't feel
good around them. And that's something that I teach my
clients all the time is that I know you are
really excited about that girl, but when you've gone out
with her, every time, you come home feeling worse about yourself.
(33:58):
So who cares that she had the perfect profile? Who
cares that you always thought you would marry a lawyer?
This girl isn't it? And that actually leads to my
next tip, which is about the post state eight. So
the post eight eight is a series of questions that
I came up with for my client who is really
struggling with this where she just could not let go
of this mindset of a valuative dating. And so she
(34:19):
had these a questions which I can tell you, and
she would save them on her phone and on the uber.
During her walk home from the date, she had to
ask herself these questions, and the questions are things like
what side of me did they bring out? How did
my body feel during the date? Stiff, relax, or something
in between. Do I feel more energized or de energized
than I did before the date? Is there something about
(34:41):
them that I'm curious about? Did they make me laugh?
Did I feel heard? Did I feel attractive in their presence?
And did I feel captivated, bored or something in between?
And the research behind this is the same reason why
gratitude journals work. So we use gratitude journals because if
you know at the end of the day you have
to write down three things that you feel grateful for,
(35:02):
throughout the day, you're looking for those things and that's
how the post date eight works as well. If you
have to answer after the date, did they make me laugh?
Did I feel heard? You're going to pay attention to
that during the date and so this really is a
technique that my clients use to really focus on their
experience of being with the person, and that helps them
a say no faster to dates that don't make them
(35:24):
feel good about themselves, but also be say yes to
those slow burn people where they think, yes, it wasn't
the sparkiest person, but actually did feel really attractive in
their presence. It actually brought out a very intellectual side
of me that I love to explore, and so train
your brain to look for the stuff that matters.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And in a way, this is like part of a
broader idea, which is like we should sort of like
treat ourselves like a scientist on a date rather than
kind of like a lawyer across examiner. We're kind of
really trying to pay attention to the data as we
go through.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yes, I've never put that thought together, but I do
often like to say date like a scientist. And the
reason why I'm so passionate about that is because what
scientists do, of course, is they have a hypothesis and
they test it and they're willing to be proven wrong.
Far too often in dating, people have a hypothesis and
they assume it's correct, and they never test it. So
(36:15):
I've literally worked with people who say I need someone
who has a graduate degree, but when I really talk
to them, it's more that they need somebody who's intellectually
curious versus having this specific form of an advanced degree.
So then the way to test it is, can you
go out with this guy who you know didn't even
graduate college but actually is super smart, is self taught?
(36:35):
Is reading a book a week? And does that give
you the same feeling? And so I do that with
people with height too, and they assume I need a
really tall person or I need someone with this background.
And so I love the idea of dating like a
scientist because it's really a way of saying, my so
called type may not be the person who makes me
happiest long term, and it's a way to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And so tip number four is one that I really
like and resonates with other things we've talked about in
the Happiness Lab, which is that to have a better,
happier date, you need to add a bit more play.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Why is play so important for happier dates?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yes, I love this one too, because I would say
I'm at a point in my life now being a
new mom where I am getting to play a lot more,
and I realized that it's just the highlight of my day.
It's so cheesy and cliche, but when I feel stressed,
just giving my daughter a bath and just really being
present in the moment and being silly with her, that
is so much more fun, and that is such a
break from the rest of my very work oriented daily life.
(37:29):
And so when people are on a date and they
can bring a sense of play, it's really a sense
of we're in a small world and we're creating something together.
We're having a novel experience. We're showing vulnerable sides of ourselves.
So if you're listening and you're somebody out there who
struggles because you come across as too serious, how can
you actually design a date that really brings out your
(37:51):
silly or playful side. So if you're not a good
ice skater, maybe you should be going ice skating right
now and you can fall and make fun of yourself
and it'll help emphasize that side of yourself. Or even
I had somebody who I interviewed for my book who
liked to go on dates where they ate dumplings and
they would have soy sauce, stripping from and there was
just something about taking yourself less seriously that really allowed
(38:13):
two people to have fun, to connect, and to really
create those novel experiences that are memorable and that we're
all seeking.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
It also seems like this fits with your advice that
we heard before the break about being a little bit
more vulnerable, right if you get the soy sauce on
your face, or you're flubbing, you know, your ice skating challenge,
Like these are the kinds of things that could actually
endear people to you rather than kind of make people
question you.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Absolutely. I think that so many people out there, and
I'm sure some part of me feels this way too,
is like, the world will like me more if I
seem perfect. The world will like me more if I
weigh this certain amount that's conventionally attractive, if I always
look perfectly put together, if I have this really fancy
job title, and we just think that, oh, if we
have this sense of achievement, if we really play into
(38:56):
conventional levels of success, then people will like us. But actually,
what most people like is somebody who makes them feel
comfortable in their own skin, somebody who doesn't make them
feel worse in comparison, and so really, how how can
you foster that sense of this is who I am,
warts and all, and I accept myself and I'm also
(39:17):
willing to accept you, because at the end of the day,
what is a relationship other than deciding I accept you
for who you are, good and bad.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And that is a nice transition to tip number five,
which is that you might think you know what you want,
but the research kind of shows that you're wrong, and
therefore we might need to get a little bit better
about our permissible pet peeves. What do you mean by
permissible pet peeves?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I really started thinking about this a few years ago
when I met this woman who was like, Logan, I'm
thirty six, I'm ready to find love. I'll go out
with anyone who you recommend, unless he's a mouth breather.
And I was like, what, what is even mouth breathing?
And so I figured out what that was, but I
just couldn't believe that she had decided that this idea
of somebody who breathed through their mouth instead of their
nose was a deal breaker, a reason why she definitely
(40:01):
couldn't be with someone. And so that really led me
to this idea of permissible pet peeves. So yes, a
lot of us have pet peeves, something that annoys us,
perhaps more than it annoys the average person. But of
course it's not a fundamental incompatibility that means that she
shouldn't be with this person long term. So she is
confusing a permissible pet peeve for a deal breaker. And
(40:24):
this has actually been pretty big in pop culture in
the last year or so. People talk about this idea
of the ick. So the ick is that you are
on a date with someone, you're really into them, maybe
you're thinking about going home with them, and then all
of a sudden they go to pay for the bill
and you hear shh, and that sound is the sound
of a velcrow wallet opening up, and the person decides
(40:46):
that velcrow wallet in the pocket of a thirty five
year old man gives you the ick, and now you're
going to run away. And I know these stories are
funny and comedians are you know, getting a lot of
sets out of this, but it's ridiculous. Who cares if
somebody as a velcro wallet. Who cares if somebody wears
socks with sandals. There's no way that that means that
you can't be in a great long term relationship. We
just know that those things are not correlated with long
(41:08):
term relationship and success. So if you are somebody out
there who has a lot of things like this, and
I encourage you to make a list of all of
your quote unquote deal breakers, the reason why you can't
be with someone, and to move as many of them
as possible into the permissible pet peeves category. And so
if you have asthma and someone smokes, that's a real
deal breaker. If you are Jewish and your partner is
(41:30):
Christian and you both want to raise kids in your
own religion, then yes, that's probably a deal breaker. But
many of the things, including mouth breathing, are not deal breakers.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
And this gets to something else you've talked about, which
is that we have to get over this idea of
finding the type right that we might just be wrong
about the kinds of things that really matter.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, so that really goes back to my idea of
date like a scientist. So so many people think I
know exactly what I want, I just need to find them.
That's a very common refrain with people that I work with.
And so the problem there is they've decided, oh, well,
I know my type and I need to find that person.
And what they don't understand is that they've actually dated
that type many times and it has worked out, and
(42:09):
so maybe they're so called type is not actually the
best fit for them long term. And so a lot
of the work that I did myself that I do
with my clients is helping them date like a scientist
and see what type of person does make them happiest
long term. So if you are the life of the
party person and you think you are drawn to that too, well,
guess what, it hasn't worked out for you so far.
(42:30):
Maybe actually need someone who's a bit more of a
homebody because they balance you out, they ground you, and
they're not competing with you for space. And so often
when people have been struggling with love for a while,
I really like to investigate their so called type and
encourage them to date like a scientist and see if
there's another type that ends up making them happier long term.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It also seems to me that people have these like
kind of ideas of deal breakers that like, when you
really kind of look at them carefully, maybe seem like shallow.
Like I know on the internet right now, there's a
lot of like no short guys kind of vibe and like,
that's just the kind of thing that you're talking about.
When it comes to this stuff that we might want
to see, is this really a deal breaker?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Might be more permissible than we think.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah, so okay, going back to pet peeves, that is
one of my pet peeves is when people are way
too focused on height. And I can tell you as
someone who is married to a short king, I highly
recommend it. And what happens is that with dating apps
you can set filters, for example height, So many women,
when they're setting up their hinge profile, they just think,
oh height, Yeah, it'd be great to be married to
(43:29):
someone who's tall, So I'll set my height filter at
six feet or higher. But what they don't understand is
that in the United States only fourteen percent of men
are six foot or higher, and so they are automatically
filtering out eighty six percent of potential matches. Then they
meet me at a party and they hold up their
phone and they say, logan, where is he? Where's my husband?
And it's like, yeah, well he's not even showing up
(43:50):
because you filtered him out. So I think height is
a great example of how people make superficial initial choices,
and then they don't understand that they're actually preventing themselves
from meeting great people. Whereas if that same woman were
at a bar sitting across from a guy and had
a fantastic conversation and then he stood up and he
was fined nine, I don't think that she would be
(44:10):
running for the hills. I think that she would understand
that we, as we said, are experiential goods and if
that guy made her feel good, who cares what the
height is on his driver's license.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And so you've been coaching so many people with dating,
do you have those strong sense that kind of using
these behavioral science strategies really helps people.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Yes, absolutely, so I think this idea of dating blind
spots is really powerful. So we all have things that
we think are holding us back, but it's possible that
the things that are actually holding us back are things
that we don't have access to at all. And so
when I first work with a client, we spend the
first session doing a audit of their relationship history, and
(44:49):
we really even start at middle school or high school.
So were you a late bloomer, were you a serial monogamous?
Were you a South Asian man at a majority white school.
How did all these stories really add up to how
you feel about yourself and how you've dated? And so
what I'm looking for in these conversations is patterns that
these people keep making. So, for example, somebody who ignores
(45:10):
red flags, why are they ignoring those red flags? What
are they getting out of those relationships that are not
a good fit? And what I really try to do
is not give them the advice that all their friends
give them, which is you're perfect. There's just nobody great
out there like Leve. Will happen to you when it happens.
And I actually like to say to them, Hey, you're
making a series of strategic errors. I can help you
(45:31):
identify what they are. I can give you a plan
for how to overcome them. I can give you accountability
so that you actually show up and make these changes,
and then I'm going to celebrate your successes with you.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I love that Logan is working so hard to help
us overturn our relationship myths, and that she's bringing science to.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Our search for love.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
We've covered a lot of ground, so let's quickly recap
her top tips. Tip Number one, meet up in person
if you've matched with a person on an app, try
to get on a date as soon as you can,
and on that date, ditch the small talk and get
to know each other more deeply. Tip number two is
to stop confusing a first date with a job interview.
Don't rate yourspective partner's salary, career opportunities, and life goals.
(46:12):
Those things aren't the important metrics you think. The third
tip is what Logan calls the post day eight. Ask
yourself her eight questions about how a date made you feel.
If you're feeling relaxed and energized, that person's probably a keeper.
Tip number four is to have fun and be goofy.
You show off your best self when you're a little
lighthearted and silly. And the final tip is to park
(46:35):
those pet peeves. Don't write off a romantic partner just
because they slurp their soup or laugh too loudly at
the movies. Those are just insignificant poptholes and what could
be a long, long road of lifetime love. As Valentine's
Day draws closer, we'll be continuing are how to advice
on relationships and will be joined by two psychologists who
(46:56):
look for scientific clues to love In some unlikely research material,
the plots of romcom movies.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
That's all.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,
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