December 11, 2023 • 35 mins
Have we created a culture where young people prioritize good grades, social media likes and constant hustling over the important wellbeing pillars of sleep, friendships and free time?
Dr Laurie Santos joins the US Surgeon General on his podcast House Calls with Dr. Vivek Murthy to ask how we got here and what Gen Z can do to get out of this happiness crisis.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, and welcome to House Calls. I'm Vivik Morphy and
I have the honor of serving as US Surgeon General.
I'd like to introduce you to doctor Lorie Santos, Professor
at Yale University and the creator of the revolutionary class
Psychology and the Good Life, better known as the Happiness Class. Today,
we'll be talking about happiness in the context of the
(00:39):
mental health crisis among you. This episode includes lessons on stress,
burnout and the practice of happiness. Hi, Laurie, Welcome to
the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I have so much time want to talk to you
about today, but I first just want to ask just
about your personal story, which is I find so fascinating
that you went from working on non human primates to
becoming an expert unhappiness, and I'm wondering if you could
tell us a little bit about how that happened.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, it's a kind of strange path, and so yeah,
I've been an academic psychologist for a very, very embarrassingly
long time. Most of the time I was really interested
in this question of what makes humans unique, what makes
us special? What are some of the ways that we
make sense of the world that no other creature does.
And I studied that question using monkeys, using non human primates.
But it was around this time, like you know, about
(01:31):
ten years ago, that I started getting more and more
involved in undergraduate student life and I took on this
new role on campus. I became a head of college
on Yelle's campus, which is this position where faculty get
to live with students in one of these undergraduate houses.
And it was just an amazing opportunity, right, I get
to see student life up close and personal. But what
was surprising was that I didn't like what I was seeing.
(01:51):
You know. I assumed college student life was like what
college life was like back you know, when I went
to school in the nineties, and it was just completely different.
You know. So many students were reporting feeling depressed and
anxious and lonely, as you know so well from your work,
and it just kind of wasn't what I was expecting,
and so I kind of wanted to do something about it. Right,
I'm like, living in this community with my students, I'm
(02:11):
like this benevolent faculty aunt who's supposed to take care
of them. And I realized, like we weren't addressing this
crisis of student mental health. So I kind of did
this sort of retraining in positive psychology and sort of
science of well being, all these evidence based strategies you
can use to feel better, and so I kind of
packaged it all together to develop a new class for students.
I thought, you know, forty or so students would take it,
(02:32):
but the first time I taught it back in twenty eighteen,
a quarter of the entire Yale student body decided to
take the class. Over. Over a thousand students showed up,
and that was sort of, you know, a logistical nightmare,
but it was also kind of humbling and cool, and
it showed me that students were voting with their feet.
They don't like this culture of feeling lonely and stressed
and anxious, and I think they really wanted some evidence
(02:54):
based ways that they could address some of these problems.
They were looking for solutions, and they wanted those solutions
to come from science and public health.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, Laurie, you and I both I know, are deeply
concerned about what's happening with young people in their mental
health these days the country, and I'm curious, I think
for people out there who may have seen the headlines,
but for whom it's not quite tangible. Y're sure, like,
what does this actually look like for kids to being crisis?
Can you paint a picture of what you've been seeing
(03:24):
on the campus and what you're observing the lives of
students in terms of how this mental health crisis is
manifesting in their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I'll start with some of the statistics,
because I think the statistics are pretty dire, right, you know,
according to these national college health surveys. So these aren't
just students at ivy League schools like yea, These are
students around the country and all kinds of different schools.
Right now, or at least in twenty nineteen, which is
the last kind of pre COVID data we had, you know,
over forty percent of college students report being too depressed
(03:51):
to function most days, Over sixty percent say that they're
overwhelmingly anxious, more than fifty percent say that they're very
lonely most of the time, and more than one in
ten has seriously considered suicide in the last twelve months.
You know. So this is what is happening nationally and
the way I would just see it on the ground
We're just students are just overwhelmed, you know, they're overwhelmed
by academics, they're overwhelmed by social stuff. I'd see a
(04:14):
student in the dining hall and be like, hey, how's
it going, and be like, Oh, if only I could
get to the end of the week, or if only
I could get to midterms. You know, they're kind of
fast forwarding this this rare and precious time they have
as young people. And those are the students who aren't
in crisis, right, you know, crisis really looks like students
who are unable to get out of bed because they
have panic attacks, or who are acutely suicidal, or who
(04:34):
have everything going, you know, especially in a school like Yale.
They're students who are academically achieving, but in terms of
their mental health, they're falling apart. And so I think,
you know, we really need to as you know all
and as you've discussed yourself, I mean, I think we
really need to think seriously about addressing this crisis, not
just because our young people's mental health matters, but as educators,
(04:55):
we're not really doing our job when these are the
statistics on the ground, Like as a college educator, if
I'm trying to teach a psychology class or you know,
some pre med class, Like, my students aren't learning if
forty percent of them are too depressed to function most
days and sixty percent expence or experiencing overwhelming anxiety, Right,
they're just not learning in the way I think we
had assumed for a very long time that they were.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, I mean those stats and stories are so powerful
and so disturbing, Laurie, I mean that tells I think
anyone out there who's listening is wonder it is this
more the exception or you know, only something that affects
a small group of people. The answer is no. I mean,
this is sadly becoming the norm, you know, if anything,
and affecting in some cases a majority of young people
(05:37):
out there. So this is a this is a profound crisis,
and it's affecting our kids. You know, as you think
about this journey, obviously weren't a bad place now, But
how did we get here? What's your sense of the
road that led to the current moment?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's no It'd be nice
if there was like a you know, a red herring
of one thing we could point to and be like, oh,
this is the factor, Like, let's get rid of it.
I think it's a variety of things. I mean, I think,
you know, we have a very different relationship with technology
than we did when you and I were in college. Right,
this is a generation of students who really can't shut off.
You know. I told this this funny story to students.
(06:12):
One of my students was in their dorm room and
they're like, you know, my title is hawk Santo's head
of college Santo's. They'd be like, hack Santo's. There's a
weird number on my wall, Like what is that? And
I was like, oh, that's the phone number. You know,
people used to call your phone in your room. And
the students said, well, how could they call me when
I wasn't in the room. And I was like, well
they couldn't. Like you could just leave, like you could
(06:33):
walk away from your social expectations. And I think when
you think about that difference, that students feel like they're
on all the time, onto their friend group, onto the
people they're performing with on social media, onto just being
connected to all the scary stuff in the news all
the time. Right, that alone is a recipe for anxiety.
It's a recipe for kind of not feeling like you
(06:54):
can ever shut off right, And so I think I
think we really need to take a solid look at
our relationship with technology. And it's partly social media, but
I think it's broader than that. You know, even a
student who's not really on TikTok or on Instagram or
so on, you know, there can to their parents who
could text them at a moment's notice. They're connected to
WhatsApp when they're kind of connecting with your friend group
(07:15):
and things like that. So I think that's a big change.
And if you plot just the number of smartphones that
students tended to have alongside these you know, awful mental
health statistics, you see a really robust correlation. And we
know correlation isn't causation, but my sense is that there's
something there we need to analyze. I think there's also
been some interesting and important structural changes to the way
(07:37):
childhood and education works. You know, I think childhood has
become much more of an achievement culture. You know, in
the years since you and I were in college, where
even from grade school students are starting to worry about grades.
You know, we have words like college readiness and things
like that, and those things are important. You know, we
want students to learn, but I think we've moved much
more away from internal rewards like learning and the benefits
(08:01):
you get from education, to things like getting into a
perfect school and the scores you get on exams and
so on. And I think that focus on external rewards
has set students up for, you know, competing in really
individualistic ways that lead them astray from the things that
really matter for their mental health, things like social connection,
things like helping others, things like having a sense of
(08:22):
meaning and purpose that's beyond yourself. And so I think
those structural changes in the way we think about education
and what students are trying to achieve, those things actually
matter a lot, and we need to look at those
really carefully if we're going to think about addressing this
mental health crisis.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So let's dig into that for a second, because I
like what you're talking about regarding internal versus external rewards,
or more so as priorities. You know that we ask
young people to train their minds on and then the
chase for years and years and years some cases the
rest of their life. And I think this is where
I think it's so interesting that. You know, people talk
(08:58):
about you as the happiness professor, and I know that
happiness has been your focus. But a lot of these
priorities are part of a narrative that tells us that
if you achieve those extra markers, right, whether it is,
you know, winning certain competitions, getting certain grades, getting to
certain school, getting fancy jobs, making a certain amount of money,
becoming famous, whatever the external markers are, the story goes
(09:21):
that if you achieve those, you will be happy. But
what is the data actually tell us about whether that's
true or not?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, I mean the data are really clear on this one,
which is that our circumstances don't necessarily make us happy.
I think the one caveat to that is that if
you're in really dire circumstances, right, if you don't have
enough money to put food on the table, if your
health is terrible, you know, those are circumstances that if
you change those, of course they'll positively affect your well being.
(09:48):
But you know, if you're not living in poverty, the
results seem to suggest that getting more money isn't necessarily
going to help you, or it's definitely not going to
help as much as we predict it well. The same
is true for grades and accolades. One of the statistics
I share with my students is that there is a
correlation between high school grade point average and well being,
but it's a negative correlation. That mean that means as
(10:10):
high school GPA goes up, your overall well being goes down.
You also see a negative correlation between high school GPA
and self esteem and high school GPA and optimism. Right,
it's not what we predict, but you know, they're just
student achievement is not leading to the kind of well
being effects we expect. And you might say, well, you
know that that might be true in school, but maybe
(10:30):
you know once they graduate from college, once they get
into the good school, you know in the future they'll
be much better off. But the data don't seem to
bear that out either. In cases where we have good data. Again,
people's great circumstances don't tend to lead to these well
being effects. The things that matter for well being are
the things that our students are often not prioritizing. They're
the kind of things that get lost in this sort
(10:51):
of opportunity cost struggle that we're sort of setting students
up for. They're things like social connection, things like just
getting enough sleep and healthy habits like exercise. They're things
like doing things for others and having a sense of purpose,
not just kind of individually competing for yourself, but really
having some bigger goal that you're doing something for your community. Again,
(11:11):
these I think are things that we've lost out on
in the norms that we set students up for today.
There are things that have kind of gone by the
wayside and the structures we've set up in our kind
of early educational system. But those are the things that
the research sug just really matter for happiness.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, And that's incredibly powerful to hear because I do
think that young people, when I talked to them across
the country, a lot of them have actually really impressive
and profound insight into the structure in which they're operating
as structure and a culture that are asking them to
chase certain benchmarks, if you will, of achievement with the promise,
(11:45):
even if it's in the losory promise of happiness that
comes thereafter. But they're not happy necessarily doing that, And
so you know, I think about this from tube respects.
One is if they're not happy, they don't want it,
where's it coming from. Is it coming from parents, Is
it coming from media? Is it coming from you know,
some other you know, sort of messaging element in society
(12:08):
that's selling people this is which you have to do.
But what's your sense of what is driving that culture
of achievement, even if it's at the expense of happiness.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I mean, I think there are a couple of factors.
It's interesting to look at this historically. There's a former
Stanford gene Julie Lithcott Jims, who's looked at this in
a lot of detail, and what she talks about is
like a lot of changes that happened to education in
the in the kind of eighties and nineties that might
have led to this. One of the big ones was
that changes to this sort of US News and World
(12:37):
Report kind of scoring of different colleges. Right before, it
was kind of like, you know, go to college, that's great.
Now there's like rankings, you can kind of win or
lose the college game. And I think parents pick up
on that, students pick up on that. Right you know,
there's this idea that there are the kind of haves
and that have nots when it comes to education now,
and that feels really different. I think there's also been
(12:58):
changes in terms of who can go to college in
incredibly positive ways. Right you know, any amazing student you
know can go to Yale right now, you know, YO
will provide a massive financial aid package. It's just fantaststic,
But the meritocracy means that, like the spoils of the
war become large. You know, this is where I kind
of tie back to my roots studying animals. You see
in animals these impressive games that when you know, the
(13:20):
spoils go up, the competition rises. You see this kind
of arms race in terms of how they invest in,
how much they compete. And I think we've kind of
stuck our students into this arms race of competing for
these things, and the competition begins really early, and what
they're sacrificing is all the stuff that we know matters
for happiness again, sleep, social connection, being present, you know,
(13:42):
being mindful, taking breaks, what social scientists call time affluence,
just the sense that you have some free time. You
think of our poor, overscheduled kids and just all the
stuff we pack in for them. And I think, you know, again,
I think parents did this. Parents kind of focused on
these things out of love for their children, right, they
want their children to succeed, They want their children ultimately
(14:02):
to be happy. But we have these misconceptions about the
kinds of things that really matter for happiness, and we
set up our structures using those misconceptions. And I think
now that we understand the signs of this stuff better,
I think we can start questioning some of those structures
and trying to think about whether there are some changes
we need to make. It's time to take a short break,
but there'll be more of my conversation with doctor V.
(14:22):
Big Marty in a moment. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, welcome
back to my chat with the US Surgeon General, doctor V.
Big Marty.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
You know, in your course on happiness, I feel like
you're it seems like there are two elements of the course, right.
You're teaching people about the science of happiness, what leads
to and influences our happiness. But you're also teaching them
about the science and art of behavior change. Right, Like,
once we understand that, how would we actually change our behaviors?
Just gosh, one of the toughest things to do, right,
but so important. And I'm curious, Like for folks out
(14:57):
there who are listening who recognize that there may be
a happiness gap in their life, a gap that they
want to close, how should they think about what kind
of activities may in fact help them increase happiness, and
then how can they change your lives to actually make
those activities part of their life. Because from one thing
is everything you've written before and spoken before that I've
(15:17):
listened to. You're very realistic about telling people that this
isn't a simple, you know, flip of the switch. This
isn't just an app that you sign up for, It's
not a one time activity. But this is it's hard work,
you know, to build a life that truly contributes to
and supports happiness.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the first important
insight is to recognize that it's possible. I mean, there's
there's just tons of data that if you can change
your behaviors, if you can change your mindsets, you will
see significant increases in happiness. Right, And again, I think
it's worth kind of qualifying that that doesn't mean you
go from like zero on a happiness scale to ten.
But if you really take seriously these kinds of strategies
(15:58):
and you engage with it, you know you can go
from a six to a seven. You know, on average,
students who take my course, for example, go up about
a point on a standard ten point well being scale.
And that's significant, right, Like that matters a lot. That
can get you out of a dark place if you're
feeling in a dark place. So I think that's thing
number one is to recognize that it works. The second
is to try to figure out the kinds of strategies
(16:19):
that really do positively affect your happiness. And again, it's
not what we think. We think we have to change
our job or you know, make some incredible change in
our finances or things like that, and for many people
it's not that. For many people, it's for example, getting
in more social connection, you know, something I know you've
talked about a lot. You know, I really wish that
you know, your office in addition to kind of having
(16:39):
the you know, recommendations for how much exercise people should
get in a day, and you know, how many whole
grains or whatever, like how many minutes of meaningful conversation
we should have you know, every single day, right, you
know how many people we should reach out to? Right,
just kind of like standard ways that we can in
really simple forms just get a little bit more connection
in our lives. That's I think, honestly, if you really
(17:01):
want to increase your happiness, that's like one of the
fastest ways to do it is just to reach out
to other people and connect. Another behavior that we know
matters for happiness, you know, of tails with our physical health,
which is just getting a little bit more asleep, right,
getting a little bit more sleep in a little bit
of exercise. I mean, one of my favorite studies that
I share with students shows that you get a half
hour of cardio exercise a day that's as effective at
(17:22):
treating depression as some antidepression medications. You know, just a
half hour every day of cardio, right, if you're not
doing that normally, And so I think we need to
just kind of remember that these behaviors are powerful. And
one of the behaviors that can be powerful for happiness
is also not doing anything. You know, this idea of
time affluence, right, like not scheduling actually getting rest in
(17:42):
it can be a powerful way to kind of free
our schedule and give ourselves a little bit of a break.
So those are behaviors we can engage in. What happiness
also can come from our mindsets, right, like literally shifting
our mindset. You know, we talked about this a little
bit about you know, maybe parents shifting their forms of anxiety.
I think you can also shift your mindset in terms
of paying attention to the positives out there lots of
(18:03):
evidence that paying attention to the things you're thankful for,
or getting a kind of mindset of gratitude matter hard
to do in this day and age where we have,
you know, twenty four seven news cycles and algorithms that
point us to the most outrageous, most negative thing. You know,
it's harder to train your brain towards things that are positive.
But the evidence suggests that gratitude can make us not
(18:24):
just improve our overall happiness levels, but it can also
improve our physical health. You know, there's evidence that grateful
people sleep better, for example, Right, and so a mindset
of gratitude are powerful, But then also a mindset of
I think compassion, right. I think we believe that the
right way to live a life is to push ourselves
and constantly be going for these external rewards and going
(18:46):
after these kinds of things. But there's lots of evidence
that giving yourself some grace, giving yourself a break not
only feels better in terms of happiness, but it might
be the path towards getting you towards those other goals
that you have otherwise, because it means you're not beating
yourself up as much. And so yeah, I think I
think finding ways to get in these behaviors and these
mindsets are important. The evidence suggests it really will improve
(19:08):
your happiness. But like all behavioral changes, it's going to
take you know, some work, right, and I think recognizing
that it's work, recognizing that it's the kind of thing
you need to do every day, you know, just like exercise,
just like eating healthy. I think that's the framing of
happiness that we need to sort of take on. I think,
you know, too often we fall for the maybe maybe
(19:28):
it's Disney messed us up, this notion of like happily
ever after that well, you know, get this one thing
and then we'll be happily ever after. But that's that's
not how it works. My Harvard colleague Dan Gilbert is
fond of saying happiness happily ever after only works if
you have three more minutes to live. You know, it's
just not how happiness works.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Well, it is a a constant effort, but as you mentioned,
it can be a fruitful effort and one that can
really return dividends. And what struck me about some of
the measures you were speaking to was the relative simplicity
of these measures. You didn't say go out and buy
an expensive service. You didn't say go out and buy
an expensive product. You talked about things that are within
(20:08):
our grasp, about sleep, about the empower of gratitude, about
even a short amount of physical activity on a given
day making an impact on our mood and how we feel.
Talked about social connection, about picking up the phone to
call a friend, or picking up the phone when someone calls,
even if it's for two minutes, but just to hear
their voice. These are incredibly powerful, and when you mentioned them,
(20:29):
it strikes me that these are kind of the original
building blocks of what allowed humans to thrive. Right, And
in some ways, what you're speaking to I think so
eloquently in what you've been modeling, I think in your
own life and your coursework, is that this is not
an effort to somehow transform us into something that's just
totally unfamiliar and foreign to us. This is a return
(20:50):
to who we've been for thousands of years. And we've
perhaps in recent history forgotten that as we've allowed other
influences to shift what we pursue and how we live.
But this is our chance, and I think our opportunity
to really get back to living a life that truly
nourishes us and how to thrive. There's one thing you
(21:11):
mentioned also that I that struck me too, you know,
when it made me think about my conversations I've had
with patients over the years about behavior change, often around
like diet and physical activity, which are you know, challenging
you know, I mean, if you are like me, you
probably started gym routines many times in your in your life,
or diets various times, and they have fallen off the
wagon somehow. And one thing I always found powerful with
(21:32):
patients was to recommend to them that they have somebody
else in their life that they can either pair up
with and make a commitment to do something together, whether
it's trut a new diet or a new exercise pattern,
or at least somebody who they can can hold them
accountable in a kind uh you know, but firm way.
You know, a good friend whom they may check in with,
(21:52):
you know, every couple of days to say hey, here's
how I'm doing on my diet, and that external partnership accountability. Uh,
it's felt. I've just noticed with patients with myself that
it helps, you know, make behavior change stick, it increases
the longevity. But I'm curious what you've seen in your
research as well.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I mean definitely. I think one of the reasons
that students do so well in my class, that we
do see these actual wellbeing gains when we measure before
and after, is that students are doing it in the
context of this big group. Right. You know, there's a
quarter of the entire Yale student body who's you know,
engaging with these things at the same time. For by
online class that we put online for free on Coursera,
you know, there's millions of learners who are doing the
(22:30):
same thing at the same time that you can connect
with on message boards and things like that. And you
know that's you know, a big extreme version. But I
think you know, just partner up with a friend and
and try to do these kinds of practices together. I
think this is a spot where parents can really get
something out of kids.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
You know, all the practices we just talked about are
ones that you can explain, you know, to your six
year old, you know, in five minutes and they get it.
And they'll you know, if you commit to doing this
stuff together with your kids, they'll hold you accountable. You know.
If you're supposed to be getting time affluence and you're not,
your kid would like Dad, like, you know, like you
said we should get time affluence, you know, like you
said you should work out the day you didn't work
out today, Like they love calling you out on that stuff.
(23:06):
And so I think that that this idea of connecting
with other people allows you to have the social connection,
but it also allows you to have some social support. Right.
You feel worse if you're not engaging in these things
because you're letting somebody else down. So it's a powerful
way to do these things. But getting back to your
other point, I mean, I agree it's you know, in
some ways, when I give the list of all these
evidence based things that you know, like people are getting, know,
(23:29):
social scientists are getting money to study, and it's like, look,
the list is like social connection and exercise more and sleep.
Your people will say, you know, that's that's what my
grandmother told me. You know, like this is you know,
like this is common wisdom, and I think ironically it's
it's long been common wisdom, but at least in the
modern day, it's not common practice. Right. It's the kind
of thing we need to build into our lives to
(23:50):
live a healthy life. And so I think coming up
with structures, whether it's social support or you're putting it
in your calendar, anything you can do to build these
things in is important. The final caveat I'll say with that, though,
is that, you know, I think whenever we hear this stuff,
you know, we as humans, you know, being these like
reward driven, you know, especially my kind of type a
Yale students, Like, there can be this move where you're like,
(24:11):
all right, and now I will begin beating myself up
for not being this like perfectly happy creature or not
achieving all these behaviors and mindsets. And I think it's
important to remember the power of baby steps, right. You know,
if you're feeling really lonely and you're not getting in
any social connection, you know, just texting a friend wants
is going to do some work. You know, if you're
a really kind of person, that the type of person
(24:32):
that focuses on the negative, then you know, thinking of
one thing that you might be grateful for every night
could be a powerful shift in your attention. And so
I think if you're hearing these things, you're feeling like,
oh gosh, I got to do all of them, you know,
that's a moment to maybe take a step back, you
give yourself some grace, pick one thing to focus on,
and start small. We know behavior change works best if
(24:53):
people are picking small things to start with and giving
themselves grace when things don't work out perfectly.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Laurie, that makes great sense. And if I think if
we could pursue some of these pathways for action that
you're talking about, especially when we're feeling, you know, run
down or burned out, I think they may help a lot.
But I want to ask you about two technology related
pathways that many of us, myself included, sometimes feel ourselves
(25:19):
walking down when we're feeling tired or exhausted or burned out.
One is social media, you know, which you know, sometimes
we can feel like, gosh, if I from lonely, or
if I'm just not feeling connected to people, let me
just you know, log onto my social media app and
then I'll see what other folks are doing, and I'll
feel connected to them. But then there's the other tech
piece I want I talked to you about, which is
(25:39):
streaming TV shows and movies, right, which is you know
once you know, I remember growing up we had to
like wait a week, you know for the next you know,
show to come on, and it was like maddening, Like, oh,
I wonder what happens in the next episode. Now, of
course we can. You can binge watch you know, an
entire series, you know, like in a night or weekend
if you want. And I've certainly found myself at moments,
(26:00):
you know, over the years, you know, when I've felt
you know, just exhausted or burned out. But like, you know,
let me just sit down and watch a few episodes
of my favorite show. But tell me, how do you
think about these types of technology platforms? How can they
be helpful to us? When are they actually not helping us?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, I mean I think the problem with some of
these technology platforms, I mean, there might be lots of
challenges with them, but I think one particular challenge comes
from yet another way that our mind lies to us,
which is that our mind really lies to us when
it comes to leisure. Right, you know, I have a
super busy week at work, you know, I finally get
some downtime. My instinct is that the best thing to
do will be to PLoP down and watch Netflix or
(26:35):
scroll through Reddit, or do something that feels like vegging out.
That's my instinct of what I'm motivated to do. But
in practice, if you look at the emotions that happen
when I do that, I kind of feel apathy. I'm
kind of bored, Like I'm kind of not challenged, right
Whereas if I did something that was a little bit
more challenging, right, like I had a little bit of
a startup cost, like call a friend or engage with something,
(26:57):
you know, learn a new hobby or something like that, right,
like that ultimately would be a better boost and happiness.
Even something like you know, doing like a quick yoga
you know, like you know class, or like a little
pilates or just like a couple jumping, I'd feel better.
But my instinct is that I wouldn't. And and this
is is something that I think I see with leisure
a lot, Like, you know, companies aren't you know, making
(27:18):
things these things to hurt us. They're giving us what
we want, you know, we want these quick dopamine hits
that feel kind of relaxing, but once we get them,
it means it becomes easier and easier to avoid the
thing that has a little bit of startup costs, but
ultimately for our happiness would feel better. And so for me,
what helps with that is just recognizing that that's true, right,
(27:38):
like knowing the science of that. Because even though I'm like,
you know, like I teach this class at Yale and
I've become, you know, an expert on some of these things,
I still fall prey to all these intuitions, right. You know,
tonight we'll have this conversation. I'll have a very busy
day with all these zoom calls, and I will immediately
be like, whoa, I'm going to pick up my phone
and scroll read it. I won't be like, oh, let
me call a friend who I haven't talked to, or
let me like pull out my yoga mat and do
(27:59):
a hard plates Like I know that I'm supposed to
do that, but my instinct is like anything but right.
But I think sometimes knowing the stuff can can allow
you to recognize it right. It can help you mindfully
realize that engaging in those activities isn't going to give
you the fun that you expect.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
We talked a lot, you and I about the culture
piece here, about how part of what we need to
do is is shift our culture from the kind of
hustle culture that's leading young people to pursue and chase
the kind of achievement that doesn't always lead to happiness,
to refocusing on the things that truly do bring us happiness,
enjoy our relationships, our physical health, our sleep, to focusing
(28:38):
on what we're grateful for. How does that culture shift, Like,
what do you see as necessary to happen that's going
to ensure that our kids in future generations are guided
by a set of incentives that actually truly maximize their happiness.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of
spots to shift. I mean, one is changing the kinds
of structures that are making that difficult. You know. Whether
that looks like tech companies realizing that you know, they
don't want to be cigarettes and they should, you know,
fix themselves before regulators decide to regulate them. One possibility.
I think universities need to do the same thing. I mean,
I think, you know, in some ways I worry the
(29:15):
admissions office is that big universities like mine are like
cigarette pushers that are setting up structures that they need
to worry that they're, you know, dismantling the very generation
that they want to be educating and want to be
bringing up. And I think, you know, careful decisions and
maybe kind of coordinated decisions across universities about what counts
as admissions kind of stuff will matter a lot. I'm
(29:38):
not sure universities will get there, who knows, but I
think that that helps a lot. But I actually think
and one of the reasons I'm so excited to teach
young people and to try to get this content out
to even younger learners is I actually think a lot
of the change is going to come from our young people.
You know. I look at the kinds of things that
students and young people are doing well with social media,
you know, look at the kind of outreach that happened
(29:59):
after an awful incident like Parkland, right, Like look at
the kind of social justice movements that students are engaging
in online. Right they are able to use these tools
for powerful collective action. And what we'll need to do
to fight this kind of arms race of hustle culture
that's emerged among our young people is to de escalate,
and that takes a kind of coordinated action that these
(30:21):
tools might, ironically like allow our young people to do. So.
I think as young people learn more that you know,
we promised you a bill of goods that's just kind
of not going to deliver, you know, they may take
collective action to shift these things around. And you know,
as I teach more and more young people in middle
school and high school, as they hear some of these
results and they're like, wait a minute, hang on, that's
not what I was promised from all this hustle, I
(30:43):
kind of watch them scaling back, and I'm hopeful that
they really will use the tools that they have that
their generation is kind of uniquely good at to do that. Well.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I was going to ask you what makes you hopeful
about the future, and you just told me in your
prescient way. But I think that in my mind makes
courses like yours, Lori all the more important, because I
do agree with you. Our greatest chance of shifting culture
is going to come from the rising generation of young
people who decide that they want to live a different life.
(31:15):
But we need to encourage them. We need to support
them as they do it, because it's not always going
to be easy to do. And I think you're giving
people the permission, the vocabulary of the structure through which
to think about that through your course, which I think
is so valuable. I want to end just with a
couple of fun questions for you. You recently staged a funtervention,
which I love the term, but an intervention to bring
(31:36):
fun into your life at a time where you realize
you needed to be having more fun. But I'm curious,
what did you do in your funtervention and do you
recommend that other people stage fundervention.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Oh? Yeah, ten out of ten recommend the funtervention. I mean, so,
the fund prevention was just an attempt to get a
little bit more socially connected play into my life, and
it started. Step one was a kind of attitude shift.
I went around trying to find delights in the world,
sort of trained my brain to notice things that were
delightful and then shared them with friends of mine. But
then it was trying to do something that was social
(32:07):
and fun that I had no external reward for that
I knew I'd just be bad at. And so I
tried surfing, which you've met me. I'm like a a
forty something, very uncordated person with no athletic skill, and
so surfing was going to be I'm never going to
be a surfer, and so I had to embrace it
in a fun way, just like as something goofy and
kind of stupid, and I wasn't really trying to get
(32:29):
some external reward out of it. And it was fantastic.
It was as predicted, super fun.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I love that. Okay, well, I'm taking away doctor Santos's
prescription for everyone is a funtervention at some point in
their life. I'm certainly going to do that. And then finally,
you've spent year study monkeys. Is there something that you've
learned from monkeys that we can learn from as human Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I think you know. One of the ironies is that
if you touch to people who are really interested in
in developing a mindset of mindfulness, right, a mindset of presence,
they often curse what's called the monkey mind, this idea
that our mind, you know, jumps from things to things
and so on. But having spent a lot of time
with monkeys, I think this is an unnecessary, an unfair
insult to monkeys, Like if you look in the monkey mind,
(33:12):
they're just present all the time. When they're eating something,
they're just eating something. When they're grooming another monkey, they're
just grooming. And you know, I often, ironically wish I
could get back to my monkey mind. I think that's
a big happiness insight that I've gotten from monkeys.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
That presence is so important, and I think we easily
get robbed of that by the distractions in our life,
whether it's our phone or our email inbox or other
things that are constantly banging and generating alerts in our life.
You've shared so much wisdom today. I was been taking
notes as we were talking, but just so many beautiful things.
(33:46):
I think about one you've helped. I think me and
our listeners just understand that happiness is in fact within
our grasp, but it's not something we can tay for granted.
We actually have to work to build the activities that
generate happiness into our life, whether that's gratitude, social connections, sleep, exercise,
or time affluence. As you said, and that's point I
(34:09):
want to underscore as well, is that free time, unstructured
on scheduled time, is a very very good thing. It
is not a bad thing, and it's not evidence that
you are lazy or unproductive or that you're somehow leaving
something on the field. That is actually what we all
need to thrive, and we've squeezed ourselves too much in
that regard. And of the many other lessons you shared,
(34:31):
I think the importance of being kind to ourselves and
each other really stands out too, you know that, not
beating ourselves up, recognizing that we're in a challenging time
right now, not just because of the pandemic, but because
of the broader culture that we're growing up then living
in and the demands it's placing on us. But that
is all made a bit better whenever we're able to
(34:51):
be just a bit more kind to one another as well.
And in a world where so many things seem to
be pushing us to be more angry at one another
or to demonize one another, being kind can be an active,
you know, of radical opposition, if you will, to those
types of cultural elements that are and technology pieces that
are constantly trying to make us angry at one another
(35:13):
or turn us against one another. So thank you just
for joining LORI, thank you for this wonderful conversation for
inspiring me as you always do, and teaching me, but
most importantly, thank you for the work you do in
the world to help create a happier, more fulfilled society.
That's what we need and we certainly need you out
there doing the incredible work that you're doing, so I
(35:34):
really appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Laurie, ditto, and thanks for helping me share the message.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
This concludes our conversation with Lorie Santos. Join me for
the next episode of House Calls with doctor Vivik Morphy,
wishing you all health and happiness.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, and welcome to House Calls. I'm Vivik Morphy and
I have the honor of serving as US Surgeon General.
I'd like to introduce you to doctor Lorie Santos, Professor
at Yale University and the creator of the revolutionary class
Psychology and the Good Life, better known as the Happiness Class. Today,
we'll be talking about happiness in the context of the
(00:39):
mental health crisis among you. This episode includes lessons on stress,
burnout and the practice of happiness. Hi, Laurie, Welcome to
the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I have so much time want to talk to you
about today, but I first just want to ask just
about your personal story, which is I find so fascinating
that you went from working on non human primates to
becoming an expert unhappiness, and I'm wondering if you could
tell us a little bit about how that happened.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, it's a kind of strange path, and so yeah,
I've been an academic psychologist for a very, very embarrassingly
long time. Most of the time I was really interested
in this question of what makes humans unique, what makes
us special? What are some of the ways that we
make sense of the world that no other creature does.
And I studied that question using monkeys, using non human primates.
But it was around this time, like you know, about
(01:31):
ten years ago, that I started getting more and more
involved in undergraduate student life and I took on this
new role on campus. I became a head of college
on Yelle's campus, which is this position where faculty get
to live with students in one of these undergraduate houses.
And it was just an amazing opportunity, right, I get
to see student life up close and personal. But what
was surprising was that I didn't like what I was seeing.
(01:51):
You know. I assumed college student life was like what
college life was like back you know, when I went
to school in the nineties, and it was just completely different.
You know. So many students were reporting feeling depressed and
anxious and lonely, as you know so well from your work,
and it just kind of wasn't what I was expecting,
and so I kind of wanted to do something about it. Right,
I'm like, living in this community with my students, I'm
(02:11):
like this benevolent faculty aunt who's supposed to take care
of them. And I realized, like we weren't addressing this
crisis of student mental health. So I kind of did
this sort of retraining in positive psychology and sort of
science of well being, all these evidence based strategies you
can use to feel better, and so I kind of
packaged it all together to develop a new class for students.
I thought, you know, forty or so students would take it,
(02:32):
but the first time I taught it back in twenty eighteen,
a quarter of the entire Yale student body decided to
take the class. Over. Over a thousand students showed up,
and that was sort of, you know, a logistical nightmare,
but it was also kind of humbling and cool, and
it showed me that students were voting with their feet.
They don't like this culture of feeling lonely and stressed
and anxious, and I think they really wanted some evidence
(02:54):
based ways that they could address some of these problems.
They were looking for solutions, and they wanted those solutions
to come from science and public health.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, Laurie, you and I both I know, are deeply
concerned about what's happening with young people in their mental
health these days the country, and I'm curious, I think
for people out there who may have seen the headlines,
but for whom it's not quite tangible. Y're sure, like,
what does this actually look like for kids to being crisis?
Can you paint a picture of what you've been seeing
(03:24):
on the campus and what you're observing the lives of
students in terms of how this mental health crisis is
manifesting in their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I'll start with some of the statistics,
because I think the statistics are pretty dire, right, you know,
according to these national college health surveys. So these aren't
just students at ivy League schools like yea, These are
students around the country and all kinds of different schools.
Right now, or at least in twenty nineteen, which is
the last kind of pre COVID data we had, you know,
over forty percent of college students report being too depressed
(03:51):
to function most days, Over sixty percent say that they're
overwhelmingly anxious, more than fifty percent say that they're very
lonely most of the time, and more than one in
ten has seriously considered suicide in the last twelve months.
You know. So this is what is happening nationally and
the way I would just see it on the ground
We're just students are just overwhelmed, you know, they're overwhelmed
by academics, they're overwhelmed by social stuff. I'd see a
(04:14):
student in the dining hall and be like, hey, how's
it going, and be like, Oh, if only I could
get to the end of the week, or if only
I could get to midterms. You know, they're kind of
fast forwarding this this rare and precious time they have
as young people. And those are the students who aren't
in crisis, right, you know, crisis really looks like students
who are unable to get out of bed because they
have panic attacks, or who are acutely suicidal, or who
(04:34):
have everything going, you know, especially in a school like Yale.
They're students who are academically achieving, but in terms of
their mental health, they're falling apart. And so I think,
you know, we really need to as you know all
and as you've discussed yourself, I mean, I think we
really need to think seriously about addressing this crisis, not
just because our young people's mental health matters, but as educators,
(04:55):
we're not really doing our job when these are the
statistics on the ground, Like as a college educator, if
I'm trying to teach a psychology class or you know,
some pre med class, Like, my students aren't learning if
forty percent of them are too depressed to function most
days and sixty percent expence or experiencing overwhelming anxiety, Right,
they're just not learning in the way I think we
had assumed for a very long time that they were.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, I mean those stats and stories are so powerful
and so disturbing, Laurie, I mean that tells I think
anyone out there who's listening is wonder it is this
more the exception or you know, only something that affects
a small group of people. The answer is no. I mean,
this is sadly becoming the norm, you know, if anything,
and affecting in some cases a majority of young people
(05:37):
out there. So this is a this is a profound crisis,
and it's affecting our kids. You know, as you think
about this journey, obviously weren't a bad place now, But
how did we get here? What's your sense of the
road that led to the current moment?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's no It'd be nice
if there was like a you know, a red herring
of one thing we could point to and be like, oh,
this is the factor, Like, let's get rid of it.
I think it's a variety of things. I mean, I think,
you know, we have a very different relationship with technology
than we did when you and I were in college. Right,
this is a generation of students who really can't shut off.
You know. I told this this funny story to students.
(06:12):
One of my students was in their dorm room and
they're like, you know, my title is hawk Santo's head
of college Santo's. They'd be like, hack Santo's. There's a
weird number on my wall, Like what is that? And
I was like, oh, that's the phone number. You know,
people used to call your phone in your room. And
the students said, well, how could they call me when
I wasn't in the room. And I was like, well
they couldn't. Like you could just leave, like you could
(06:33):
walk away from your social expectations. And I think when
you think about that difference, that students feel like they're
on all the time, onto their friend group, onto the
people they're performing with on social media, onto just being
connected to all the scary stuff in the news all
the time. Right, that alone is a recipe for anxiety.
It's a recipe for kind of not feeling like you
(06:54):
can ever shut off right, And so I think I
think we really need to take a solid look at
our relationship with technology. And it's partly social media, but
I think it's broader than that. You know, even a
student who's not really on TikTok or on Instagram or
so on, you know, there can to their parents who
could text them at a moment's notice. They're connected to
WhatsApp when they're kind of connecting with your friend group
(07:15):
and things like that. So I think that's a big change.
And if you plot just the number of smartphones that
students tended to have alongside these you know, awful mental
health statistics, you see a really robust correlation. And we
know correlation isn't causation, but my sense is that there's
something there we need to analyze. I think there's also
been some interesting and important structural changes to the way
(07:37):
childhood and education works. You know, I think childhood has
become much more of an achievement culture. You know, in
the years since you and I were in college, where
even from grade school students are starting to worry about grades.
You know, we have words like college readiness and things
like that, and those things are important. You know, we
want students to learn, but I think we've moved much
more away from internal rewards like learning and the benefits
(08:01):
you get from education, to things like getting into a
perfect school and the scores you get on exams and
so on. And I think that focus on external rewards
has set students up for, you know, competing in really
individualistic ways that lead them astray from the things that
really matter for their mental health, things like social connection,
things like helping others, things like having a sense of
(08:22):
meaning and purpose that's beyond yourself. And so I think
those structural changes in the way we think about education
and what students are trying to achieve, those things actually
matter a lot, and we need to look at those
really carefully if we're going to think about addressing this
mental health crisis.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So let's dig into that for a second, because I
like what you're talking about regarding internal versus external rewards,
or more so as priorities. You know that we ask
young people to train their minds on and then the
chase for years and years and years some cases the
rest of their life. And I think this is where
I think it's so interesting that. You know, people talk
(08:58):
about you as the happiness professor, and I know that
happiness has been your focus. But a lot of these
priorities are part of a narrative that tells us that
if you achieve those extra markers, right, whether it is,
you know, winning certain competitions, getting certain grades, getting to
certain school, getting fancy jobs, making a certain amount of money,
becoming famous, whatever the external markers are, the story goes
(09:21):
that if you achieve those, you will be happy. But
what is the data actually tell us about whether that's
true or not?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, I mean the data are really clear on this one,
which is that our circumstances don't necessarily make us happy.
I think the one caveat to that is that if
you're in really dire circumstances, right, if you don't have
enough money to put food on the table, if your
health is terrible, you know, those are circumstances that if
you change those, of course they'll positively affect your well being.
(09:48):
But you know, if you're not living in poverty, the
results seem to suggest that getting more money isn't necessarily
going to help you, or it's definitely not going to
help as much as we predict it well. The same
is true for grades and accolades. One of the statistics
I share with my students is that there is a
correlation between high school grade point average and well being,
but it's a negative correlation. That mean that means as
(10:10):
high school GPA goes up, your overall well being goes down.
You also see a negative correlation between high school GPA
and self esteem and high school GPA and optimism. Right,
it's not what we predict, but you know, they're just
student achievement is not leading to the kind of well
being effects we expect. And you might say, well, you
know that that might be true in school, but maybe
(10:30):
you know once they graduate from college, once they get
into the good school, you know in the future they'll
be much better off. But the data don't seem to
bear that out either. In cases where we have good data. Again,
people's great circumstances don't tend to lead to these well
being effects. The things that matter for well being are
the things that our students are often not prioritizing. They're
the kind of things that get lost in this sort
(10:51):
of opportunity cost struggle that we're sort of setting students
up for. They're things like social connection, things like just
getting enough sleep and healthy habits like exercise. They're things
like doing things for others and having a sense of purpose,
not just kind of individually competing for yourself, but really
having some bigger goal that you're doing something for your community. Again,
(11:11):
these I think are things that we've lost out on
in the norms that we set students up for today.
There are things that have kind of gone by the
wayside and the structures we've set up in our kind
of early educational system. But those are the things that
the research sug just really matter for happiness.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, And that's incredibly powerful to hear because I do
think that young people, when I talked to them across
the country, a lot of them have actually really impressive
and profound insight into the structure in which they're operating
as structure and a culture that are asking them to
chase certain benchmarks, if you will, of achievement with the promise,
(11:45):
even if it's in the losory promise of happiness that
comes thereafter. But they're not happy necessarily doing that, And
so you know, I think about this from tube respects.
One is if they're not happy, they don't want it,
where's it coming from. Is it coming from parents, Is
it coming from media? Is it coming from you know,
some other you know, sort of messaging element in society
(12:08):
that's selling people this is which you have to do.
But what's your sense of what is driving that culture
of achievement, even if it's at the expense of happiness.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I mean, I think there are a couple of factors.
It's interesting to look at this historically. There's a former
Stanford gene Julie Lithcott Jims, who's looked at this in
a lot of detail, and what she talks about is
like a lot of changes that happened to education in
the in the kind of eighties and nineties that might
have led to this. One of the big ones was
that changes to this sort of US News and World
(12:37):
Report kind of scoring of different colleges. Right before, it
was kind of like, you know, go to college, that's great.
Now there's like rankings, you can kind of win or
lose the college game. And I think parents pick up
on that, students pick up on that. Right you know,
there's this idea that there are the kind of haves
and that have nots when it comes to education now,
and that feels really different. I think there's also been
(12:58):
changes in terms of who can go to college in
incredibly positive ways. Right you know, any amazing student you
know can go to Yale right now, you know, YO
will provide a massive financial aid package. It's just fantaststic,
But the meritocracy means that, like the spoils of the
war become large. You know, this is where I kind
of tie back to my roots studying animals. You see
in animals these impressive games that when you know, the
(13:20):
spoils go up, the competition rises. You see this kind
of arms race in terms of how they invest in,
how much they compete. And I think we've kind of
stuck our students into this arms race of competing for
these things, and the competition begins really early, and what
they're sacrificing is all the stuff that we know matters
for happiness again, sleep, social connection, being present, you know,
(13:42):
being mindful, taking breaks, what social scientists call time affluence,
just the sense that you have some free time. You
think of our poor, overscheduled kids and just all the
stuff we pack in for them. And I think, you know, again,
I think parents did this. Parents kind of focused on
these things out of love for their children, right, they
want their children to succeed, They want their children ultimately
(14:02):
to be happy. But we have these misconceptions about the
kinds of things that really matter for happiness, and we
set up our structures using those misconceptions. And I think
now that we understand the signs of this stuff better,
I think we can start questioning some of those structures
and trying to think about whether there are some changes
we need to make. It's time to take a short break,
but there'll be more of my conversation with doctor V.
(14:22):
Big Marty in a moment. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, welcome
back to my chat with the US Surgeon General, doctor V.
Big Marty.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
You know, in your course on happiness, I feel like
you're it seems like there are two elements of the course, right.
You're teaching people about the science of happiness, what leads
to and influences our happiness. But you're also teaching them
about the science and art of behavior change. Right, Like,
once we understand that, how would we actually change our behaviors?
Just gosh, one of the toughest things to do, right,
but so important. And I'm curious, Like for folks out
(14:57):
there who are listening who recognize that there may be
a happiness gap in their life, a gap that they
want to close, how should they think about what kind
of activities may in fact help them increase happiness, and
then how can they change your lives to actually make
those activities part of their life. Because from one thing
is everything you've written before and spoken before that I've
(15:17):
listened to. You're very realistic about telling people that this
isn't a simple, you know, flip of the switch. This
isn't just an app that you sign up for, It's
not a one time activity. But this is it's hard work,
you know, to build a life that truly contributes to
and supports happiness.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the first important
insight is to recognize that it's possible. I mean, there's
there's just tons of data that if you can change
your behaviors, if you can change your mindsets, you will
see significant increases in happiness. Right, And again, I think
it's worth kind of qualifying that that doesn't mean you
go from like zero on a happiness scale to ten.
But if you really take seriously these kinds of strategies
(15:58):
and you engage with it, you know you can go
from a six to a seven. You know, on average,
students who take my course, for example, go up about
a point on a standard ten point well being scale.
And that's significant, right, Like that matters a lot. That
can get you out of a dark place if you're
feeling in a dark place. So I think that's thing
number one is to recognize that it works. The second
is to try to figure out the kinds of strategies
(16:19):
that really do positively affect your happiness. And again, it's
not what we think. We think we have to change
our job or you know, make some incredible change in
our finances or things like that, and for many people
it's not that. For many people, it's for example, getting
in more social connection, you know, something I know you've
talked about a lot. You know, I really wish that
you know, your office in addition to kind of having
(16:39):
the you know, recommendations for how much exercise people should
get in a day, and you know, how many whole
grains or whatever, like how many minutes of meaningful conversation
we should have you know, every single day, right, you
know how many people we should reach out to? Right,
just kind of like standard ways that we can in
really simple forms just get a little bit more connection
in our lives. That's I think, honestly, if you really
(17:01):
want to increase your happiness, that's like one of the
fastest ways to do it is just to reach out
to other people and connect. Another behavior that we know
matters for happiness, you know, of tails with our physical health,
which is just getting a little bit more asleep, right,
getting a little bit more sleep in a little bit
of exercise. I mean, one of my favorite studies that
I share with students shows that you get a half
hour of cardio exercise a day that's as effective at
(17:22):
treating depression as some antidepression medications. You know, just a
half hour every day of cardio, right, if you're not
doing that normally, And so I think we need to
just kind of remember that these behaviors are powerful. And
one of the behaviors that can be powerful for happiness
is also not doing anything. You know, this idea of
time affluence, right, like not scheduling actually getting rest in
(17:42):
it can be a powerful way to kind of free
our schedule and give ourselves a little bit of a break.
So those are behaviors we can engage in. What happiness
also can come from our mindsets, right, like literally shifting
our mindset. You know, we talked about this a little
bit about you know, maybe parents shifting their forms of anxiety.
I think you can also shift your mindset in terms
of paying attention to the positives out there lots of
(18:03):
evidence that paying attention to the things you're thankful for,
or getting a kind of mindset of gratitude matter hard
to do in this day and age where we have,
you know, twenty four seven news cycles and algorithms that
point us to the most outrageous, most negative thing. You know,
it's harder to train your brain towards things that are positive.
But the evidence suggests that gratitude can make us not
(18:24):
just improve our overall happiness levels, but it can also
improve our physical health. You know, there's evidence that grateful
people sleep better, for example, Right, and so a mindset
of gratitude are powerful, But then also a mindset of
I think compassion, right. I think we believe that the
right way to live a life is to push ourselves
and constantly be going for these external rewards and going
(18:46):
after these kinds of things. But there's lots of evidence
that giving yourself some grace, giving yourself a break not
only feels better in terms of happiness, but it might
be the path towards getting you towards those other goals
that you have otherwise, because it means you're not beating
yourself up as much. And so yeah, I think I
think finding ways to get in these behaviors and these
mindsets are important. The evidence suggests it really will improve
(19:08):
your happiness. But like all behavioral changes, it's going to
take you know, some work, right, and I think recognizing
that it's work, recognizing that it's the kind of thing
you need to do every day, you know, just like exercise,
just like eating healthy. I think that's the framing of
happiness that we need to sort of take on. I think,
you know, too often we fall for the maybe maybe
(19:28):
it's Disney messed us up, this notion of like happily
ever after that well, you know, get this one thing
and then we'll be happily ever after. But that's that's
not how it works. My Harvard colleague Dan Gilbert is
fond of saying happiness happily ever after only works if
you have three more minutes to live. You know, it's
just not how happiness works.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Well, it is a a constant effort, but as you mentioned,
it can be a fruitful effort and one that can
really return dividends. And what struck me about some of
the measures you were speaking to was the relative simplicity
of these measures. You didn't say go out and buy
an expensive service. You didn't say go out and buy
an expensive product. You talked about things that are within
(20:08):
our grasp, about sleep, about the empower of gratitude, about
even a short amount of physical activity on a given
day making an impact on our mood and how we feel.
Talked about social connection, about picking up the phone to
call a friend, or picking up the phone when someone calls,
even if it's for two minutes, but just to hear
their voice. These are incredibly powerful, and when you mentioned them,
(20:29):
it strikes me that these are kind of the original
building blocks of what allowed humans to thrive. Right, And
in some ways, what you're speaking to I think so
eloquently in what you've been modeling, I think in your
own life and your coursework, is that this is not
an effort to somehow transform us into something that's just
totally unfamiliar and foreign to us. This is a return
(20:50):
to who we've been for thousands of years. And we've
perhaps in recent history forgotten that as we've allowed other
influences to shift what we pursue and how we live.
But this is our chance, and I think our opportunity
to really get back to living a life that truly
nourishes us and how to thrive. There's one thing you
(21:11):
mentioned also that I that struck me too, you know,
when it made me think about my conversations I've had
with patients over the years about behavior change, often around
like diet and physical activity, which are you know, challenging
you know, I mean, if you are like me, you
probably started gym routines many times in your in your life,
or diets various times, and they have fallen off the
wagon somehow. And one thing I always found powerful with
(21:32):
patients was to recommend to them that they have somebody
else in their life that they can either pair up
with and make a commitment to do something together, whether
it's trut a new diet or a new exercise pattern,
or at least somebody who they can can hold them
accountable in a kind uh you know, but firm way.
You know, a good friend whom they may check in with,
(21:52):
you know, every couple of days to say hey, here's
how I'm doing on my diet, and that external partnership accountability. Uh,
it's felt. I've just noticed with patients with myself that
it helps, you know, make behavior change stick, it increases
the longevity. But I'm curious what you've seen in your
research as well.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I mean definitely. I think one of the reasons
that students do so well in my class, that we
do see these actual wellbeing gains when we measure before
and after, is that students are doing it in the
context of this big group. Right. You know, there's a
quarter of the entire Yale student body who's you know,
engaging with these things at the same time. For by
online class that we put online for free on Coursera,
you know, there's millions of learners who are doing the
(22:30):
same thing at the same time that you can connect
with on message boards and things like that. And you
know that's you know, a big extreme version. But I
think you know, just partner up with a friend and
and try to do these kinds of practices together. I
think this is a spot where parents can really get
something out of kids.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
You know, all the practices we just talked about are
ones that you can explain, you know, to your six
year old, you know, in five minutes and they get it.
And they'll you know, if you commit to doing this
stuff together with your kids, they'll hold you accountable. You know.
If you're supposed to be getting time affluence and you're not,
your kid would like Dad, like, you know, like you
said we should get time affluence, you know, like you
said you should work out the day you didn't work
out today, Like they love calling you out on that stuff.
(23:06):
And so I think that that this idea of connecting
with other people allows you to have the social connection,
but it also allows you to have some social support. Right.
You feel worse if you're not engaging in these things
because you're letting somebody else down. So it's a powerful
way to do these things. But getting back to your
other point, I mean, I agree it's you know, in
some ways, when I give the list of all these
evidence based things that you know, like people are getting, know,
(23:29):
social scientists are getting money to study, and it's like, look,
the list is like social connection and exercise more and sleep.
Your people will say, you know, that's that's what my
grandmother told me. You know, like this is you know,
like this is common wisdom, and I think ironically it's
it's long been common wisdom, but at least in the
modern day, it's not common practice. Right. It's the kind
of thing we need to build into our lives to
(23:50):
live a healthy life. And so I think coming up
with structures, whether it's social support or you're putting it
in your calendar, anything you can do to build these
things in is important. The final caveat I'll say with that, though,
is that, you know, I think whenever we hear this stuff,
you know, we as humans, you know, being these like
reward driven, you know, especially my kind of type a
Yale students, Like, there can be this move where you're like,
(24:11):
all right, and now I will begin beating myself up
for not being this like perfectly happy creature or not
achieving all these behaviors and mindsets. And I think it's
important to remember the power of baby steps, right. You know,
if you're feeling really lonely and you're not getting in
any social connection, you know, just texting a friend wants
is going to do some work. You know, if you're
a really kind of person, that the type of person
(24:32):
that focuses on the negative, then you know, thinking of
one thing that you might be grateful for every night
could be a powerful shift in your attention. And so
I think if you're hearing these things, you're feeling like,
oh gosh, I got to do all of them, you know,
that's a moment to maybe take a step back, you
give yourself some grace, pick one thing to focus on,
and start small. We know behavior change works best if
(24:53):
people are picking small things to start with and giving
themselves grace when things don't work out perfectly.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Laurie, that makes great sense. And if I think if
we could pursue some of these pathways for action that
you're talking about, especially when we're feeling, you know, run
down or burned out, I think they may help a lot.
But I want to ask you about two technology related
pathways that many of us, myself included, sometimes feel ourselves
(25:19):
walking down when we're feeling tired or exhausted or burned out.
One is social media, you know, which you know, sometimes
we can feel like, gosh, if I from lonely, or
if I'm just not feeling connected to people, let me
just you know, log onto my social media app and
then I'll see what other folks are doing, and I'll
feel connected to them. But then there's the other tech
piece I want I talked to you about, which is
(25:39):
streaming TV shows and movies, right, which is you know
once you know, I remember growing up we had to
like wait a week, you know for the next you know,
show to come on, and it was like maddening, Like, oh,
I wonder what happens in the next episode. Now, of
course we can. You can binge watch you know, an
entire series, you know, like in a night or weekend
if you want. And I've certainly found myself at moments,
(26:00):
you know, over the years, you know, when I've felt
you know, just exhausted or burned out. But like, you know,
let me just sit down and watch a few episodes
of my favorite show. But tell me, how do you
think about these types of technology platforms? How can they
be helpful to us? When are they actually not helping us?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, I mean I think the problem with some of
these technology platforms, I mean, there might be lots of
challenges with them, but I think one particular challenge comes
from yet another way that our mind lies to us,
which is that our mind really lies to us when
it comes to leisure. Right, you know, I have a
super busy week at work, you know, I finally get
some downtime. My instinct is that the best thing to
do will be to PLoP down and watch Netflix or
(26:35):
scroll through Reddit, or do something that feels like vegging out.
That's my instinct of what I'm motivated to do. But
in practice, if you look at the emotions that happen
when I do that, I kind of feel apathy. I'm
kind of bored, Like I'm kind of not challenged, right
Whereas if I did something that was a little bit
more challenging, right, like I had a little bit of
a startup cost, like call a friend or engage with something,
(26:57):
you know, learn a new hobby or something like that, right,
like that ultimately would be a better boost and happiness.
Even something like you know, doing like a quick yoga
you know, like you know class, or like a little
pilates or just like a couple jumping, I'd feel better.
But my instinct is that I wouldn't. And and this
is is something that I think I see with leisure
a lot, Like, you know, companies aren't you know, making
(27:18):
things these things to hurt us. They're giving us what
we want, you know, we want these quick dopamine hits
that feel kind of relaxing, but once we get them,
it means it becomes easier and easier to avoid the
thing that has a little bit of startup costs, but
ultimately for our happiness would feel better. And so for me,
what helps with that is just recognizing that that's true, right,
(27:38):
like knowing the science of that. Because even though I'm like,
you know, like I teach this class at Yale and
I've become, you know, an expert on some of these things,
I still fall prey to all these intuitions, right. You know,
tonight we'll have this conversation. I'll have a very busy
day with all these zoom calls, and I will immediately
be like, whoa, I'm going to pick up my phone
and scroll read it. I won't be like, oh, let
me call a friend who I haven't talked to, or
let me like pull out my yoga mat and do
(27:59):
a hard plates Like I know that I'm supposed to
do that, but my instinct is like anything but right.
But I think sometimes knowing the stuff can can allow
you to recognize it right. It can help you mindfully
realize that engaging in those activities isn't going to give
you the fun that you expect.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
We talked a lot, you and I about the culture
piece here, about how part of what we need to
do is is shift our culture from the kind of
hustle culture that's leading young people to pursue and chase
the kind of achievement that doesn't always lead to happiness,
to refocusing on the things that truly do bring us happiness,
enjoy our relationships, our physical health, our sleep, to focusing
(28:38):
on what we're grateful for. How does that culture shift, Like,
what do you see as necessary to happen that's going
to ensure that our kids in future generations are guided
by a set of incentives that actually truly maximize their happiness.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of
spots to shift. I mean, one is changing the kinds
of structures that are making that difficult. You know. Whether
that looks like tech companies realizing that you know, they
don't want to be cigarettes and they should, you know,
fix themselves before regulators decide to regulate them. One possibility.
I think universities need to do the same thing. I mean,
I think, you know, in some ways I worry the
(29:15):
admissions office is that big universities like mine are like
cigarette pushers that are setting up structures that they need
to worry that they're, you know, dismantling the very generation
that they want to be educating and want to be
bringing up. And I think, you know, careful decisions and
maybe kind of coordinated decisions across universities about what counts
as admissions kind of stuff will matter a lot. I'm
(29:38):
not sure universities will get there, who knows, but I
think that that helps a lot. But I actually think
and one of the reasons I'm so excited to teach
young people and to try to get this content out
to even younger learners is I actually think a lot
of the change is going to come from our young people.
You know. I look at the kinds of things that
students and young people are doing well with social media,
you know, look at the kind of outreach that happened
(29:59):
after an awful incident like Parkland, right, Like look at
the kind of social justice movements that students are engaging
in online. Right they are able to use these tools
for powerful collective action. And what we'll need to do
to fight this kind of arms race of hustle culture
that's emerged among our young people is to de escalate,
and that takes a kind of coordinated action that these
(30:21):
tools might, ironically like allow our young people to do. So.
I think as young people learn more that you know,
we promised you a bill of goods that's just kind
of not going to deliver, you know, they may take
collective action to shift these things around. And you know,
as I teach more and more young people in middle
school and high school, as they hear some of these
results and they're like, wait a minute, hang on, that's
not what I was promised from all this hustle, I
(30:43):
kind of watch them scaling back, and I'm hopeful that
they really will use the tools that they have that
their generation is kind of uniquely good at to do that. Well.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I was going to ask you what makes you hopeful
about the future, and you just told me in your
prescient way. But I think that in my mind makes
courses like yours, Lori all the more important, because I
do agree with you. Our greatest chance of shifting culture
is going to come from the rising generation of young
people who decide that they want to live a different life.
(31:15):
But we need to encourage them. We need to support
them as they do it, because it's not always going
to be easy to do. And I think you're giving
people the permission, the vocabulary of the structure through which
to think about that through your course, which I think
is so valuable. I want to end just with a
couple of fun questions for you. You recently staged a funtervention,
which I love the term, but an intervention to bring
(31:36):
fun into your life at a time where you realize
you needed to be having more fun. But I'm curious,
what did you do in your funtervention and do you
recommend that other people stage fundervention.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Oh? Yeah, ten out of ten recommend the funtervention. I mean, so,
the fund prevention was just an attempt to get a
little bit more socially connected play into my life, and
it started. Step one was a kind of attitude shift.
I went around trying to find delights in the world,
sort of trained my brain to notice things that were
delightful and then shared them with friends of mine. But
then it was trying to do something that was social
(32:07):
and fun that I had no external reward for that
I knew I'd just be bad at. And so I
tried surfing, which you've met me. I'm like a a
forty something, very uncordated person with no athletic skill, and
so surfing was going to be I'm never going to
be a surfer, and so I had to embrace it
in a fun way, just like as something goofy and
kind of stupid, and I wasn't really trying to get
(32:29):
some external reward out of it. And it was fantastic.
It was as predicted, super fun.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I love that. Okay, well, I'm taking away doctor Santos's
prescription for everyone is a funtervention at some point in
their life. I'm certainly going to do that. And then finally,
you've spent year study monkeys. Is there something that you've
learned from monkeys that we can learn from as human Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I think you know. One of the ironies is that
if you touch to people who are really interested in
in developing a mindset of mindfulness, right, a mindset of presence,
they often curse what's called the monkey mind, this idea
that our mind, you know, jumps from things to things
and so on. But having spent a lot of time
with monkeys, I think this is an unnecessary, an unfair
insult to monkeys, Like if you look in the monkey mind,
(33:12):
they're just present all the time. When they're eating something,
they're just eating something. When they're grooming another monkey, they're
just grooming. And you know, I often, ironically wish I
could get back to my monkey mind. I think that's
a big happiness insight that I've gotten from monkeys.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
That presence is so important, and I think we easily
get robbed of that by the distractions in our life,
whether it's our phone or our email inbox or other
things that are constantly banging and generating alerts in our life.
You've shared so much wisdom today. I was been taking
notes as we were talking, but just so many beautiful things.
(33:46):
I think about one you've helped. I think me and
our listeners just understand that happiness is in fact within
our grasp, but it's not something we can tay for granted.
We actually have to work to build the activities that
generate happiness into our life, whether that's gratitude, social connections, sleep, exercise,
or time affluence. As you said, and that's point I
(34:09):
want to underscore as well, is that free time, unstructured
on scheduled time, is a very very good thing. It
is not a bad thing, and it's not evidence that
you are lazy or unproductive or that you're somehow leaving
something on the field. That is actually what we all
need to thrive, and we've squeezed ourselves too much in
that regard. And of the many other lessons you shared,
(34:31):
I think the importance of being kind to ourselves and
each other really stands out too, you know that, not
beating ourselves up, recognizing that we're in a challenging time
right now, not just because of the pandemic, but because
of the broader culture that we're growing up then living
in and the demands it's placing on us. But that
is all made a bit better whenever we're able to
(34:51):
be just a bit more kind to one another as well.
And in a world where so many things seem to
be pushing us to be more angry at one another
or to demonize one another, being kind can be an active,
you know, of radical opposition, if you will, to those
types of cultural elements that are and technology pieces that
are constantly trying to make us angry at one another
(35:13):
or turn us against one another. So thank you just
for joining LORI, thank you for this wonderful conversation for
inspiring me as you always do, and teaching me, but
most importantly, thank you for the work you do in
the world to help create a happier, more fulfilled society.
That's what we need and we certainly need you out
there doing the incredible work that you're doing, so I
(35:34):
really appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Laurie, ditto, and thanks for helping me share the message.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
This concludes our conversation with Lorie Santos. Join me for
the next episode of House Calls with doctor Vivik Morphy,
wishing you all health and happiness.
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