December 13, 2022 • 37 mins
Adrianne Lenker is the lead singer of the Grammy-nominated band Big Thief and an acclaimed solo artist. Listening to her song “anything” was a turning point for Lauren. In this conversation, Adrianne and Lauren explore what it means to access one’s emotions and how music creates a safe world to process grief.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Adrian Linker does know a lot about autism, but
she does know a ton about big feelings. As the
lead singer of the indie rock band Big Thief and
a solo artist in her own right, Adrian is well
(00:36):
versed in the art of harnessing jumbo sized emotions and
turning them into something beautiful. So I figured she'd be
a great person to talk to as I pieced through
my own large feels. Adrian had just come out of
her COVID cocoon and was touring her solo album titled Songs,
(00:56):
when she agreed to talk to a perfect stranger me
about big life stuff. During our chat, she treated me
to a brief musical performance over Zoom involving a paper.
Needless to say, she made my day, month, probably even
my year. So the song that that I wanted to
(01:21):
talk about was the single off the album anything. Do
you remember when you wrote it? M Yes, I do.
I remember because I was in western Massachusetts in the
woods and it was pretty close to the time that
the pandemic hit, and I ended up living in this
(01:43):
empty cabin that was near where my sister was living,
and I was going through a pretty painful breakup, and
I was not expecting to write a bunch of new songs.
I started the process of recording some of my songs,
but I had this whole other batch of songs that
(02:04):
I was meaning to record, but none of them seemed
to want to be recorded, and and and instead all
these new songs came through. And that song, I, um, yeah,
I remember just like writing, and it's kind of just
like coming out in like one go, like all of
(02:27):
the words just kind of just like streaming out. And
then shortly after that, like within the next hour, I
was recording it. So is it is it lyrics first
and then instrumentation. Oftentimes it's actually that I'm just playing
my guitar for a while, finding some kind of chord
(02:47):
progression that I really that I feel in my body
that I enjoy that, like I want to keep playing,
and then the melody and then all the words sort
of form like shapes and vowels and sounds start to
just kind of come out in all these mumbles, and
then it starts to congeal and like be come more
(03:10):
of a shape and more of a shape until it
just forms itself. And it's so interesting because those of
us were not musical or you know, music making seems
totally mysterious, and that's I think part of the beauty
of being able to listen to music is like it's
a thing that it is. I do not know how
it's made. It does feel like magic. Honestly to me too.
(03:33):
I think that's also true for like the music makers
like it. To me, it still feels very mysterious. Like
I it does kind of feel like magic, and I
don't fully understand where it comes from. I don't want
to say that you're like possessed, but there's something, there's
a spirit or there's some way that you're moved and
that you've you've almost sort of let go of the
conscious mind and you like you're letting it take over
(03:56):
you in some way. Yeah. I mean, if I were
to try and explain like how I write a song,
I wouldn't really be able to explain the song part.
I would only be able to explain the putting myself
in a headspace part, which is like kind of emptying
(04:18):
my thoughts and like so that I'm not actually constructing
something with my mind, but I'm actually just getting into
a full on feeling space of like just the vibration
of the guitar resonating against my body, and the way
that my voice sounds like coming back, bouncing off the wall,
(04:41):
back into my ears. It is like something coming through,
which is what I like. I like. I'm more interested
in what I can't come up with on my own.
I'm more interested in writing things that I don't fully
understand yet, that I'm not piecing together through logic, but
that I'm actually discovering myself. It feels very visceral when
(05:05):
you're talking, like the vibrations of the guitar and the
way that your voice is bouncing off the walls and
all of that. It like it's a sensory experience, almost
more so than a intellectual experience. Yeah, yes, definitely, yeah
it is. Did you have a sense with that particular
(05:25):
song what you wanted it to sound like or was
it like it's going to come out how it comes out.
I didn't have any ideas in my head at all, like,
and I think that's why stuff was. I think that's
why it was really flowing and why I was really
writing a lot at that time, because it was out
of necessity. I was very heartsick, I felt, so it
(05:46):
was after six years of constant, NonStop touring, going through
different iterations of like you know, being married and then
divorcing my partner in the band who I am in
a band with, then you know, just going through all
this kind of stuff well, being on tour nine months
out of the year, and when it all stopped, like
(06:08):
I kind of was having like a breakdown and it
was really hard to even eat food, and I was
feeling so bad, and the songs were just my only
like I just I wasn't even thinking about ever sharing
them with anybody or showing them to anybody. I wasn't
(06:28):
thinking about it even as a piece of art. I
wasn't thinking about presenting anything. I was just simply like
feeling like I needed to somehow like reach into a
deeper part of what was going on inside of me.
I always feel weird about talking to artists because being
(06:52):
asked to articulate your process and the mental space that
you're in it must be one tedious and two very
difficult because because you might not know it yourself, or
it's like, well, what's the point of articulating it when
like it's very personal to you and I appreciate you,
you know, sort of going in that direction and trying
(07:16):
to explain to you know, where you were at that time.
You know it felt so I mean, the whole album
is gorgeous and I couldn't stop listening to it for
the longest time, and they're trying to figure out, like
what it was, and I think it's the spareness of it,
(07:36):
like the spareness of your voice, the spareness of the guitar.
And I guess, like I was thinking, like did the
setting of the cabin in the woods, And you know,
I used to live in Vermont for a long time,
and so I know that feeling of like isolation in
New England. But was that a part of it? Was there?
(07:58):
Was there? Were you influenced by your environment? Definitely? I
mean just being in the quiet of nature. And I
saw the winter going to the spring, I saw the
snow melt and all the leaves come out, and I
started just like paying attention, so much attention to the
details of that slow process of a change of season,
(08:20):
which I had not witnessed since the beginning of Big
Thief starting because I've just been touring. It brought a
lot of focus and quiet, like there was so much
quiet and I think a lot can emerge from a
more silent space. But also I think there's like some
(08:42):
hidden magic on the record because I discovered this paintbrush
tool on Dragon Eyes. Yes, but also I don't um
it's on like so many of the songs. It's actually
like on most of them, Like yeah, it's on anything
I have. It's such a cool sound, and it like
(09:08):
it's like this little he that I discovered that creates
this drone like that is this really soft sort of
averything that has a lot of different harmonics, and it's
underneath so there's almost this pulse, Like there's a pulse
throughout the record that it's not on every single song,
but it's not a lot of them, and it helps
(09:28):
kind of create this world. Like I felt like there
was this under like this really quiet, subtle sort of
orchestra of like nature sounds and like the brush and
like leaves and like birds and rain and stuff like
that that you may not hear it and go, oh,
there's some rain or there's you know, but it's like
(09:50):
in there all kind of and we were recording to tape,
so it's like all just like analog. There wasn't like
a computer setup or you know, it's like I feel
like there's like a warmth and a like a little
bit of a magical kind of like there's just harmonics
stuff that I feel like you're in there that kind
(10:12):
of like it would be so different if you just
heard me play the song anything just with one guitar
and singing. See, I layered like three guitars. I put
like brush on it, and I did like a counter
guitar melody and then I like recorded like yeah, little
subtle harmony. Yeah, the brushes is is a real nifty trick.
(10:38):
What made you say I'm going to pick up a
paint brush and strum the guitar with it. I had
a paint brush and guitar um, and I just I
mean I could have like a you know, a soda
can or you know, like a rock from outside, And
I don't know that I would necessarily think to like
(10:59):
jam it into my instrument, But I know, I don't know. Yeah, true,
I understand. I Yeah, I think it was just craving
the pulse honestly, and like the softness. Like right in
my room, I have the paint brush that that I
used and the guitar. I can show you if you want. Yeah, yeah, please,
I'd love to see it. Yeah, this is this is
(11:28):
actually the guitar. This is the only guitar I have.
I've had it since I was fourteen. Amazing. The whole
record is just with this guitar, that whole songs. But
it's too so this is the paint brush, and it's
a used paint brush. It's not new. You didn't just
go down to home depot and pick it up. No, yeah, exactly.
But you may be able to tell how quiet this is.
(12:10):
It's amazing. It's gorgeous. Yeah, it creates this like you know,
this little it's it's like tinny or it's it's metalic.
I mean, it has that metallic kind of but it's
I mean, I'm again, this is not I can't describe me.
It's like it's truly my worst quality. Uh but um yeah,
(12:30):
that's gorgeous. Also, there's just something about the acoustic guitar
that I've always just resonated with so much since I
was little, and I still feel the same amount. It
holds me, like it comforts me so much, and it's
it's just it's just the certain tambre and the resonance
and everything about it I I love exploring it because
(12:52):
it's like it's like a jungle gym or something. It
is like a playground with It's like a like a
world where you can just like try all this stuff.
When you were writing, are you are you thinking thinking
about the listeners, like are you are there feelings that
(13:13):
you're trying to evoke or are you writing for yourself
and for your needs and whatever comes out comes out.
I'm writing for the listener in myself, that's fine. Well,
(13:35):
sometimes it takes me a while to even understand what
a song means. After all the stuff comes comes out,
it's not like I even fully even understand or I'm
able to extract all the meaning right then sometimes over
time I start to understand and piece it together. And
(13:57):
first and foremost, it does have to excite me. It
does have to feel like pull something out of me
or draw something out of me. It has to feel
like it makes me think and like question, and it
also just mostly has to feel resonant deeply, like it
(14:19):
just has to feel cathartic in some way, like like
I can feel it in my guts and if because
I can't fake it for like for sure, I could
never just write something with another person in mind and
hope that it resonates for them, even though I know
it's not resonant for me. I don't think I could
do that bring myself to sing a song like that
(14:41):
or so first and foremost it does have to speak
to the part of me that is listening. Then I
can only hope that it is a force for good
or something that can bring something to somebody else. And
if it doesn't, then you know it doesn't. And I'm
not trying to orchestrate like a career, like I'm so
(15:06):
grateful to be able to have one, but I but
I don't want to just be you know, talking just
to talk and right making music just to make music?
And um, does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, no, it
(15:26):
absolutely does. And I think that's probably why your work
resonates with so many people. I view it like there's
a lot of there's a real like universality in a
lot of the lyrics, like you're telling a very specific
story or event, but it has broader resonance. But I'm
curious for you, with some distance from the writing, what
(15:50):
does it mean for you now? Hm that song specifically? Anything? Yeah? Um,
I think it it's a yearning for uncomplicated connection where
you're not being asked to explain yourself, learning for like
(16:12):
a closeness and like a true embrace, um, like to
bridge the gap of understanding between that that can get
so muddied and complicated by words like things so much
can get lost in translation, and it's just like the
desire for like the most simple form of being embraced
(16:36):
in a way of when when all of it is
it can just feel so tiresome. Yeah, I guess that's
the essence hearing you say that, I'm I like want
to jump through the computer and just be like yes,
(16:57):
like yes, but we might have slightly different like that
meaning the thing that you were saying is like, uh,
you know, sort of not want, not needing to explain yourself,
to sort of have an uncomplicated connection with people and
sort of letting go of words. Because part of my
(17:20):
coming to grips with my diagnosis is that, like I
have had to over forty three years contort myself into
a million different shapes to fit what I think is
what people think is appropriate. You know, there's a particular
thing and in autism that a lot of autistic people do,
(17:42):
which is masking or camouflaging where you're shape shifting into
a space because you know your behavior doesn't actually fit that,
but you really have to work hard to fit in
or be isolated. And one thing that I've been going
through in my sort of journey this year is figuring
out how I can just be accepted for myself or
(18:08):
be given a wide berth, or be allowed to be
who I am and need to be without without muddying
that with you know, acting or working really hard to kind.
I mean, the work is exhausting. The mental gymnastics that
you have to do to appear typical are really exhausting,
(18:32):
and so hearing you say that, I think my guide,
like this song actually resonates more than I thought that
it did because I knew it hit me on sort
of a but like a very just like gut level.
I mean, look, I'm not trying to be like weird,
but every time I hear that song and I'm in
my car, I cry. It's like an automatic response. I
(18:55):
don't know what it's about, but it's like, like I
was just listening to it yesterday. I've probably heard it
fifty times, you know, in the last like in the
last month, and I'm still like, like, I'm a dog's
in the car, just picked her up, you know, I'm crying.
She's like, what's going on? You know? But may I
(19:15):
tell you the impetus for our chat, the story behind
our behind this for me? Yes, of course, yeah, okay.
So I was in Marfa, Texas. A friend of mine
who lives out there, said, um, why don't you, you know,
take the car and go out the ranch road through
(19:37):
Pinto Canyon, which is just like the straight shot right
to Mexico, right, and it's gorgeous. The sun's going down.
The road is totally empty, it's a two lane road.
They're just ranches as far as you can see. And
the road is just it doesn't the terrain doesn't really shift,
(19:57):
just rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. The sun's going down. And
I was listening to your album and and Anything came
on and it just was like a gut pun and
I just started, like not to be melodramatic, but weeping.
And I didn't know what was going on. And I
(20:18):
had to pull the car over and just stop because well,
one I couldn't see to drive, it was unsafe, but two,
I was just overcome. I was completely overcome and you know.
I think it was the combination of the way that
(20:39):
the song, the steadiness of the song that there's not
doesn't build up to some like you know, big crashing
bridge or you know, it's just like it's low drama,
and it mirrored the landscape in this way. But I
was overcome with this feeling of like like this person
(21:01):
who's singing this song, they had so much access to
their emotions. They weren't held hostage seemingly by the emotions.
They could just sort of freely emote and be vulnerable
and let it out and it was okay. And and
I think it there was all this stored up emotion
of this diagnosis for me, but also having it having
(21:23):
it happened during a pandemic, when you're not connected to people,
when your support systems are kind of collapsed in a
particular way. And I pause because I knew I was
doing this, and I just recorded myself like my sort
of whatever my thoughts were at that time. And I mean,
the thing I kept keep coming back to was like,
(21:45):
like that kind of emotion is so hard for me
to find or to access or to touch. It feels dangerous.
It feels like it's just it's just dangerous and also
kind of wild and scary. And so I think, I know,
(22:09):
I wanted to chat for our show because it felt
like there was a way in which you figured it out,
like you figured out how to access an appropriate amount
of emotion and vulnerability. And I know that sounds maybe weird,
but like that was that really meant something to me
(22:32):
in that moment, and I felt like something lifted or
something changed or it was really pivotal for me. And
I might not be articulating it in a way that
sortfully relays the gravity of it for me, but it
was very moving and yeah, and so that's I think
(22:54):
my wonder is that I'm just so curious about how
you get there. Wow, thank you for sharing that story.
It's me, Thank you for listening to it is vulnerable
that you know, sharing that feels like gets vulnerable to
(23:15):
just have a little window into your experience with the music.
And it's pretty cool to get to hear because I
don't often hear how about once I, once I finish
my part, goes out into the world and I don't
really know, you know, what it's like for different people,
(23:38):
And so interesting that it tapped into that for you
or that. But but I I know it's well, I
don't look at it as melodramatic at all, like to
feel that amount of emotion or to weep. I think
that sadness emotion, you know, feeling things like deeply is
(24:07):
not it's not really nurtured, Like we're not really given
the tools from an early age to even most people,
I mean without without autism, without a diagnosis like that,
it's already there's already so much stifling that happens, and
then I can't I don't know what it feels like
(24:30):
with that on top of it, which seems like something
that is not understood or given space in itself. Like
I just think that there's so much around feeling your
raw feelings and emotions that is just like oppressed. And
but I feel like I remember like part of your
(24:52):
question that I didn't really like answer. I feel was
like how I got there, How I got to that
vulnerable place, And honestly, I didn't feel like I had
the balance all worked out when I was making the
songs are emoting. It didn't feel like I found figured
(25:13):
out a key to like the right amount of this
or that or that I could even control how much
was happening, but I could barely get down food. I
was like crawling around on the dirt, like crying into
the woods, like crying into the I was having panic attacks.
My body was like I was barely able to like
(25:36):
finish a potato. Like I honestly like did not feel
the sensation that I was gonna like get through it.
You know. I felt like it was out of control.
Like I was like, this is is this ever gonna end?
I felt like I was in like a like it
was after six years of pushing myself to the max touring,
(25:58):
I hadn't processed like the grief of my breakup, and
I just even just the amount of time of like
I'm a pretty sensitive person and I was doing something
completely outside of my nature, which was like moving to
a new space every night and putting being in front,
holding space for like a lot of people in a room,
(26:19):
being looked at and being listened to. Already, I struggle
with self deprecation and because of you know, like parts
of my childhood that were abusive, and like it was
all amplified, but it was all squelched because I just
didn't have any room to really process. I think what
it is is just like how I got there was
(26:42):
by going there, like just like allowing myself to feel
the scariness of it. It's important to feel this, and
it's important to let its surface and come up and
move through. I guess just being able to be like
you know what, I'm going to be there for myself
no matter what. And like this sadness is not negative.
(27:06):
This sadness is not bad. The emotion is not bad,
Like all that I am is not bad. It can
all be here and like honestly just a lot of
like self soothing and trying to like believe in good,
like believing in like love, believing that love is a
(27:28):
real force. If you could imagine like the best friend
you could ever imagine, or like the best parent that
you could ever imagine, and your like little child self
was like feeling the whole spectrum of everything they feel.
How would that parent that you imagine or like that
friend meet that kid. I imagine when I'm struggling with
(27:51):
like self deprecation because I've had like dysmorphia like in
my life, like about around my face and different things.
But I just imagine that person just being like come here,
like I love you so much you're so special, You're light,
like I'm with you, I'm not going anywhere, and you
(28:13):
can feel all you feel and you can be all
you are and you're you know, and it's powerful, like
you're amazing, Like I love your sweetheart, like I'm here,
you know, Like and that is I'm not saying that
that's something I've mastered by any means, but that's something
I that's the kind of friend to myself that I
(28:37):
want to be, like I want to be just so
steadfast least sticking by my own spirit. And and so
when all that emotion comes out, that's honestly what got
me through is just time and time again coming to
a point of like this can all be here and
(28:57):
it's okay, and like you can feel this all, I
can feel it all. It's not too much. It just is,
you know. And yeah, I mean that is a gorgeous
sentiment about sort of reaching back and and being the
person that you needed and the person you wish was
(29:23):
there for you. And I mean a lot of a
lot of my experience, particularly in the past year, has
been sort of toggling back to that time, to the
childhood time, and all of the ways that like little
me was not able to be and and that is
(29:49):
like a hard thing to reconcile when basically like your
middle age you know. Um, But also I think really
important for the person now to be able to know
that like, no, you're not bad, You're not ter, Like
(30:10):
everything you do isn't bad because because that's like my
struggle is like I've been like terminally bad my whole life.
I've been bad at work, I've been bad at school,
I've been bad in relationships. I'm a bad daughter, I'm
a bad sister, I'm a badness. I'm a bad that.
And and and also you know, the sort of degree
(30:31):
of forgiveness around you know, forgiving other people and forgiving
yourself and figuring out that. I mean, I think that
so many people struggle with the sort of self love
piece of things. Um, but keeping that in mind about
how like how you can be there for you is
really beautiful. And like I think that also your vulnerability,
(30:55):
I'm guessing is something that allows you to connect with
other people, like through your music, but probably personally. Yeah,
I think that is something that I can that's like
a gift that I have, that I have been given
and that sometimes I'm self conscious about because I am
(31:16):
so much in my like heart space, and sometimes I'm
just feel so much that I worry that it's like
too much for friends or people, and I'm like, am
I just a storm of like feeling all the time?
You know? But but I think that it is like
(31:38):
a cool tool. I mean, so, do you feel like
it's hard for you to do that within like relationships
or do you have access to do that? Very hard?
Very hard, feels very dangerous. It feels like, yeah, yeah,
it's it's it's extremely hard because I think that when
(32:02):
you've been told your whole life you're like too much,
you're too loud, you're too big, you're too aggressive, you're
too this, you're too that, and you make yourself small
in a lot of ways because you don't want to
burden somebody, or you don't want your problems to be
their problems, or you know, it's I mean, telling my
parents about my diagnosis is one of the hardest things
(32:24):
I've ever done. And I had to tell them I
was gay, and that's like that seemed hard at the time,
but this seemed harder because you're tracking back through your
whole life and they're tracking back and they're like, is
this an indictment on my parenting? Is this? This? Is?
It's that whatever you know? And so, but like there's
(32:48):
there's such a cost to vulnerability to me, it seems
and when but it's beautiful when you're proven wrong, right,
Like you take a risk and people step up for you,
and that's like that and then you're allowing them to
do that for you, thus creating some kind of connection
(33:12):
or bond. But it's hard to see that many steps
in advance. I think for me, you know, it's amazing
that you're able to see like almost outside of it,
like to be able to talk about it like this,
and you know, like that must have been a journey
to get there, to to I mean, it's amazing that
(33:33):
you're able to like articulate to yourself or understand like
what's even happening. Yeah, I think I barely can still,
But it's I guess you know, if you've ever felt
a compulsion like you have to do a thing, like
I felt like I had to figure out what was
going on with me and what had been going on
with me for my whole life. There was a sense
(33:56):
of urgency in sort of addressing that part of myself
and slowly inviting other people in to That has definitely
been hard because the reactions have gone from like stone
face like what to like, to like oh cool, um,
(34:20):
like when are we going like to get pizza or something,
you know, like like real nonchalant, to like what the
fuck are you talking about? Um? So yeah, And I mean,
I'm very good at compartmentalizing. So like I'm compartmentmentalizing this interview,
and I compartmentalize every interview that I do around this,
and and I every you know, recorded myself having meltdowns
(34:44):
and shared them with my producers, and I have to
compartmentalize that because if I think about it, I'm like,
oh my god, these these people who I'm working with
are hearing me at my worst. Um, and that's really hard.
So I just pretend like it didn't happen in the
first place. But and so, so I'll make this show
(35:05):
and then I'll put it out there and pretend like
I never made it. You know, Wow, Hopefully no one
talks to me about wow. And I mean, who knows
how you'll feel when when it's out and there in
the world. And like, I mean, how I when I
make something vulnerable there's the word again. I guess when
(35:29):
I make something like that though and put it out
in the world, I do feel like I've grown. Like
the main thing I take out of it is like
I've grown and now what that piece of work means
to anyone else, it's awesome like that that record songs.
I'm in a new stage of life. That's an encapsulation
of a period I was in. I'm not reliving that
(35:50):
over and over again. I learned from making it and
now I'm in a new stage, right, And that's that's
a cool. Part of it is like we don't lose.
We get to like gain a lot from diving into
these explorations of creating and of like sharing, I think,
(36:14):
and to a certain degree, it is like a skin
you can kind of shed, maybe like and it is
a gift you're giving to the world because they get
to then through just similar to how you're describing that
you had a moment driving down the road in the
desert listening to my song and it helped you access
your emotion. You cried, which to me is like a
(36:37):
positive thing because it's like movement of energy. So similarly,
this very show that you're creating could do the same
for others. Like in a way, once you've moved on
and you're you're totally in another chapter, digging into something
else and thinking about something else and working on something else,
(36:58):
some other part of yourself, this thing could ripple out
into helping people, helping change people's lives, you know, like
because you are sharing something real, you know that it
takes a lot. I do think it takes a lot
of courage to do that and share a part of
(37:19):
yourself like that. Adrianlinker is the lead singer of the
Grammy nominated indie rock band Big Thief. You can check
out the band's latest album, Dragon, New War Mountain, I
Believe In You on all the music streaming services. If
(37:40):
you want to learn more about adrian solo work, hit
up Adrianlinker dot com. This episode was produced by David
Jah and edited by Sophie Crane, mix engineering by Jake Gorsky.
Thanks to you friend for listening.
Pushkin. Adrian Linker does know a lot about autism, but
she does know a ton about big feelings. As the
lead singer of the indie rock band Big Thief and
a solo artist in her own right, Adrian is well
(00:36):
versed in the art of harnessing jumbo sized emotions and
turning them into something beautiful. So I figured she'd be
a great person to talk to as I pieced through
my own large feels. Adrian had just come out of
her COVID cocoon and was touring her solo album titled Songs,
(00:56):
when she agreed to talk to a perfect stranger me
about big life stuff. During our chat, she treated me
to a brief musical performance over Zoom involving a paper.
Needless to say, she made my day, month, probably even
my year. So the song that that I wanted to
(01:21):
talk about was the single off the album anything. Do
you remember when you wrote it? M Yes, I do.
I remember because I was in western Massachusetts in the
woods and it was pretty close to the time that
the pandemic hit, and I ended up living in this
(01:43):
empty cabin that was near where my sister was living,
and I was going through a pretty painful breakup, and
I was not expecting to write a bunch of new songs.
I started the process of recording some of my songs,
but I had this whole other batch of songs that
(02:04):
I was meaning to record, but none of them seemed
to want to be recorded, and and and instead all
these new songs came through. And that song, I, um, yeah,
I remember just like writing, and it's kind of just
like coming out in like one go, like all of
(02:27):
the words just kind of just like streaming out. And
then shortly after that, like within the next hour, I
was recording it. So is it is it lyrics first
and then instrumentation. Oftentimes it's actually that I'm just playing
my guitar for a while, finding some kind of chord
(02:47):
progression that I really that I feel in my body
that I enjoy that, like I want to keep playing,
and then the melody and then all the words sort
of form like shapes and vowels and sounds start to
just kind of come out in all these mumbles, and
then it starts to congeal and like be come more
(03:10):
of a shape and more of a shape until it
just forms itself. And it's so interesting because those of
us were not musical or you know, music making seems
totally mysterious, and that's I think part of the beauty
of being able to listen to music is like it's
a thing that it is. I do not know how
it's made. It does feel like magic. Honestly to me too.
(03:33):
I think that's also true for like the music makers
like it. To me, it still feels very mysterious. Like
I it does kind of feel like magic, and I
don't fully understand where it comes from. I don't want
to say that you're like possessed, but there's something, there's
a spirit or there's some way that you're moved and
that you've you've almost sort of let go of the
conscious mind and you like you're letting it take over
(03:56):
you in some way. Yeah. I mean, if I were
to try and explain like how I write a song,
I wouldn't really be able to explain the song part.
I would only be able to explain the putting myself
in a headspace part, which is like kind of emptying
(04:18):
my thoughts and like so that I'm not actually constructing
something with my mind, but I'm actually just getting into
a full on feeling space of like just the vibration
of the guitar resonating against my body, and the way
that my voice sounds like coming back, bouncing off the wall,
(04:41):
back into my ears. It is like something coming through,
which is what I like. I like. I'm more interested
in what I can't come up with on my own.
I'm more interested in writing things that I don't fully
understand yet, that I'm not piecing together through logic, but
that I'm actually discovering myself. It feels very visceral when
(05:05):
you're talking, like the vibrations of the guitar and the
way that your voice is bouncing off the walls and
all of that. It like it's a sensory experience, almost
more so than a intellectual experience. Yeah, yes, definitely, yeah
it is. Did you have a sense with that particular
(05:25):
song what you wanted it to sound like or was
it like it's going to come out how it comes out.
I didn't have any ideas in my head at all, like,
and I think that's why stuff was. I think that's
why it was really flowing and why I was really
writing a lot at that time, because it was out
of necessity. I was very heartsick, I felt, so it
(05:46):
was after six years of constant, NonStop touring, going through
different iterations of like you know, being married and then
divorcing my partner in the band who I am in
a band with, then you know, just going through all
this kind of stuff well, being on tour nine months
out of the year, and when it all stopped, like
(06:08):
I kind of was having like a breakdown and it
was really hard to even eat food, and I was
feeling so bad, and the songs were just my only
like I just I wasn't even thinking about ever sharing
them with anybody or showing them to anybody. I wasn't
(06:28):
thinking about it even as a piece of art. I
wasn't thinking about presenting anything. I was just simply like
feeling like I needed to somehow like reach into a
deeper part of what was going on inside of me.
I always feel weird about talking to artists because being
(06:52):
asked to articulate your process and the mental space that
you're in it must be one tedious and two very
difficult because because you might not know it yourself, or
it's like, well, what's the point of articulating it when
like it's very personal to you and I appreciate you,
you know, sort of going in that direction and trying
(07:16):
to explain to you know, where you were at that time.
You know it felt so I mean, the whole album
is gorgeous and I couldn't stop listening to it for
the longest time, and they're trying to figure out, like
what it was, and I think it's the spareness of it,
(07:36):
like the spareness of your voice, the spareness of the guitar.
And I guess, like I was thinking, like did the
setting of the cabin in the woods, And you know,
I used to live in Vermont for a long time,
and so I know that feeling of like isolation in
New England. But was that a part of it? Was there?
(07:58):
Was there? Were you influenced by your environment? Definitely? I
mean just being in the quiet of nature. And I
saw the winter going to the spring, I saw the
snow melt and all the leaves come out, and I
started just like paying attention, so much attention to the
details of that slow process of a change of season,
(08:20):
which I had not witnessed since the beginning of Big
Thief starting because I've just been touring. It brought a
lot of focus and quiet, like there was so much
quiet and I think a lot can emerge from a
more silent space. But also I think there's like some
(08:42):
hidden magic on the record because I discovered this paintbrush
tool on Dragon Eyes. Yes, but also I don't um
it's on like so many of the songs. It's actually
like on most of them, Like yeah, it's on anything
I have. It's such a cool sound, and it like
(09:08):
it's like this little he that I discovered that creates
this drone like that is this really soft sort of
averything that has a lot of different harmonics, and it's
underneath so there's almost this pulse, Like there's a pulse
throughout the record that it's not on every single song,
but it's not a lot of them, and it helps
(09:28):
kind of create this world. Like I felt like there
was this under like this really quiet, subtle sort of
orchestra of like nature sounds and like the brush and
like leaves and like birds and rain and stuff like
that that you may not hear it and go, oh,
there's some rain or there's you know, but it's like
(09:50):
in there all kind of and we were recording to tape,
so it's like all just like analog. There wasn't like
a computer setup or you know, it's like I feel
like there's like a warmth and a like a little
bit of a magical kind of like there's just harmonics
stuff that I feel like you're in there that kind
(10:12):
of like it would be so different if you just
heard me play the song anything just with one guitar
and singing. See, I layered like three guitars. I put
like brush on it, and I did like a counter
guitar melody and then I like recorded like yeah, little
subtle harmony. Yeah, the brushes is is a real nifty trick.
(10:38):
What made you say I'm going to pick up a
paint brush and strum the guitar with it. I had
a paint brush and guitar um, and I just I
mean I could have like a you know, a soda
can or you know, like a rock from outside, And
I don't know that I would necessarily think to like
(10:59):
jam it into my instrument, But I know, I don't know. Yeah, true,
I understand. I Yeah, I think it was just craving
the pulse honestly, and like the softness. Like right in
my room, I have the paint brush that that I
used and the guitar. I can show you if you want. Yeah, yeah, please,
I'd love to see it. Yeah, this is this is
(11:28):
actually the guitar. This is the only guitar I have.
I've had it since I was fourteen. Amazing. The whole
record is just with this guitar, that whole songs. But
it's too so this is the paint brush, and it's
a used paint brush. It's not new. You didn't just
go down to home depot and pick it up. No, yeah, exactly.
But you may be able to tell how quiet this is.
(12:10):
It's amazing. It's gorgeous. Yeah, it creates this like you know,
this little it's it's like tinny or it's it's metalic.
I mean, it has that metallic kind of but it's
I mean, I'm again, this is not I can't describe me.
It's like it's truly my worst quality. Uh but um yeah,
(12:30):
that's gorgeous. Also, there's just something about the acoustic guitar
that I've always just resonated with so much since I
was little, and I still feel the same amount. It
holds me, like it comforts me so much, and it's
it's just it's just the certain tambre and the resonance
and everything about it I I love exploring it because
(12:52):
it's like it's like a jungle gym or something. It
is like a playground with It's like a like a
world where you can just like try all this stuff.
When you were writing, are you are you thinking thinking
about the listeners, like are you are there feelings that
(13:13):
you're trying to evoke or are you writing for yourself
and for your needs and whatever comes out comes out.
I'm writing for the listener in myself, that's fine. Well,
(13:35):
sometimes it takes me a while to even understand what
a song means. After all the stuff comes comes out,
it's not like I even fully even understand or I'm
able to extract all the meaning right then sometimes over
time I start to understand and piece it together. And
(13:57):
first and foremost, it does have to excite me. It
does have to feel like pull something out of me
or draw something out of me. It has to feel
like it makes me think and like question, and it
also just mostly has to feel resonant deeply, like it
(14:19):
just has to feel cathartic in some way, like like
I can feel it in my guts and if because
I can't fake it for like for sure, I could
never just write something with another person in mind and
hope that it resonates for them, even though I know
it's not resonant for me. I don't think I could
do that bring myself to sing a song like that
(14:41):
or so first and foremost it does have to speak
to the part of me that is listening. Then I
can only hope that it is a force for good
or something that can bring something to somebody else. And
if it doesn't, then you know it doesn't. And I'm
not trying to orchestrate like a career, like I'm so
(15:06):
grateful to be able to have one, but I but
I don't want to just be you know, talking just
to talk and right making music just to make music?
And um, does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, no, it
(15:26):
absolutely does. And I think that's probably why your work
resonates with so many people. I view it like there's
a lot of there's a real like universality in a
lot of the lyrics, like you're telling a very specific
story or event, but it has broader resonance. But I'm
curious for you, with some distance from the writing, what
(15:50):
does it mean for you now? Hm that song specifically? Anything? Yeah? Um,
I think it it's a yearning for uncomplicated connection where
you're not being asked to explain yourself, learning for like
(16:12):
a closeness and like a true embrace, um, like to
bridge the gap of understanding between that that can get
so muddied and complicated by words like things so much
can get lost in translation, and it's just like the
desire for like the most simple form of being embraced
(16:36):
in a way of when when all of it is
it can just feel so tiresome. Yeah, I guess that's
the essence hearing you say that, I'm I like want
to jump through the computer and just be like yes,
(16:57):
like yes, but we might have slightly different like that
meaning the thing that you were saying is like, uh,
you know, sort of not want, not needing to explain yourself,
to sort of have an uncomplicated connection with people and
sort of letting go of words. Because part of my
(17:20):
coming to grips with my diagnosis is that, like I
have had to over forty three years contort myself into
a million different shapes to fit what I think is
what people think is appropriate. You know, there's a particular
thing and in autism that a lot of autistic people do,
(17:42):
which is masking or camouflaging where you're shape shifting into
a space because you know your behavior doesn't actually fit that,
but you really have to work hard to fit in
or be isolated. And one thing that I've been going
through in my sort of journey this year is figuring
out how I can just be accepted for myself or
(18:08):
be given a wide berth, or be allowed to be
who I am and need to be without without muddying
that with you know, acting or working really hard to kind.
I mean, the work is exhausting. The mental gymnastics that
you have to do to appear typical are really exhausting,
(18:32):
and so hearing you say that, I think my guide,
like this song actually resonates more than I thought that
it did because I knew it hit me on sort
of a but like a very just like gut level.
I mean, look, I'm not trying to be like weird,
but every time I hear that song and I'm in
my car, I cry. It's like an automatic response. I
(18:55):
don't know what it's about, but it's like, like I
was just listening to it yesterday. I've probably heard it
fifty times, you know, in the last like in the
last month, and I'm still like, like, I'm a dog's
in the car, just picked her up, you know, I'm crying.
She's like, what's going on? You know? But may I
(19:15):
tell you the impetus for our chat, the story behind
our behind this for me? Yes, of course, yeah, okay.
So I was in Marfa, Texas. A friend of mine
who lives out there, said, um, why don't you, you know,
take the car and go out the ranch road through
(19:37):
Pinto Canyon, which is just like the straight shot right
to Mexico, right, and it's gorgeous. The sun's going down.
The road is totally empty, it's a two lane road.
They're just ranches as far as you can see. And
the road is just it doesn't the terrain doesn't really shift,
(19:57):
just rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. The sun's going down. And
I was listening to your album and and Anything came
on and it just was like a gut pun and
I just started, like not to be melodramatic, but weeping.
And I didn't know what was going on. And I
(20:18):
had to pull the car over and just stop because well,
one I couldn't see to drive, it was unsafe, but two,
I was just overcome. I was completely overcome and you know.
I think it was the combination of the way that
(20:39):
the song, the steadiness of the song that there's not
doesn't build up to some like you know, big crashing
bridge or you know, it's just like it's low drama,
and it mirrored the landscape in this way. But I
was overcome with this feeling of like like this person
(21:01):
who's singing this song, they had so much access to
their emotions. They weren't held hostage seemingly by the emotions.
They could just sort of freely emote and be vulnerable
and let it out and it was okay. And and
I think it there was all this stored up emotion
of this diagnosis for me, but also having it having
(21:23):
it happened during a pandemic, when you're not connected to people,
when your support systems are kind of collapsed in a
particular way. And I pause because I knew I was
doing this, and I just recorded myself like my sort
of whatever my thoughts were at that time. And I mean,
the thing I kept keep coming back to was like,
(21:45):
like that kind of emotion is so hard for me
to find or to access or to touch. It feels dangerous.
It feels like it's just it's just dangerous and also
kind of wild and scary. And so I think, I know,
(22:09):
I wanted to chat for our show because it felt
like there was a way in which you figured it out,
like you figured out how to access an appropriate amount
of emotion and vulnerability. And I know that sounds maybe weird,
but like that was that really meant something to me
(22:32):
in that moment, and I felt like something lifted or
something changed or it was really pivotal for me. And
I might not be articulating it in a way that
sortfully relays the gravity of it for me, but it
was very moving and yeah, and so that's I think
(22:54):
my wonder is that I'm just so curious about how
you get there. Wow, thank you for sharing that story.
It's me, Thank you for listening to it is vulnerable
that you know, sharing that feels like gets vulnerable to
(23:15):
just have a little window into your experience with the music.
And it's pretty cool to get to hear because I
don't often hear how about once I, once I finish
my part, goes out into the world and I don't
really know, you know, what it's like for different people,
(23:38):
And so interesting that it tapped into that for you
or that. But but I I know it's well, I
don't look at it as melodramatic at all, like to
feel that amount of emotion or to weep. I think
that sadness emotion, you know, feeling things like deeply is
(24:07):
not it's not really nurtured, Like we're not really given
the tools from an early age to even most people,
I mean without without autism, without a diagnosis like that,
it's already there's already so much stifling that happens, and
then I can't I don't know what it feels like
(24:30):
with that on top of it, which seems like something
that is not understood or given space in itself. Like
I just think that there's so much around feeling your
raw feelings and emotions that is just like oppressed. And
but I feel like I remember like part of your
(24:52):
question that I didn't really like answer. I feel was
like how I got there, How I got to that
vulnerable place, And honestly, I didn't feel like I had
the balance all worked out when I was making the
songs are emoting. It didn't feel like I found figured
(25:13):
out a key to like the right amount of this
or that or that I could even control how much
was happening, but I could barely get down food. I
was like crawling around on the dirt, like crying into
the woods, like crying into the I was having panic attacks.
My body was like I was barely able to like
(25:36):
finish a potato. Like I honestly like did not feel
the sensation that I was gonna like get through it.
You know. I felt like it was out of control.
Like I was like, this is is this ever gonna end?
I felt like I was in like a like it
was after six years of pushing myself to the max touring,
(25:58):
I hadn't processed like the grief of my breakup, and
I just even just the amount of time of like
I'm a pretty sensitive person and I was doing something
completely outside of my nature, which was like moving to
a new space every night and putting being in front,
holding space for like a lot of people in a room,
(26:19):
being looked at and being listened to. Already, I struggle
with self deprecation and because of you know, like parts
of my childhood that were abusive, and like it was
all amplified, but it was all squelched because I just
didn't have any room to really process. I think what
it is is just like how I got there was
(26:42):
by going there, like just like allowing myself to feel
the scariness of it. It's important to feel this, and
it's important to let its surface and come up and
move through. I guess just being able to be like
you know what, I'm going to be there for myself
no matter what. And like this sadness is not negative.
(27:06):
This sadness is not bad. The emotion is not bad,
Like all that I am is not bad. It can
all be here and like honestly just a lot of
like self soothing and trying to like believe in good,
like believing in like love, believing that love is a
(27:28):
real force. If you could imagine like the best friend
you could ever imagine, or like the best parent that
you could ever imagine, and your like little child self
was like feeling the whole spectrum of everything they feel.
How would that parent that you imagine or like that
friend meet that kid. I imagine when I'm struggling with
(27:51):
like self deprecation because I've had like dysmorphia like in
my life, like about around my face and different things.
But I just imagine that person just being like come here,
like I love you so much you're so special, You're light,
like I'm with you, I'm not going anywhere, and you
(28:13):
can feel all you feel and you can be all
you are and you're you know, and it's powerful, like
you're amazing, Like I love your sweetheart, like I'm here,
you know, Like and that is I'm not saying that
that's something I've mastered by any means, but that's something
I that's the kind of friend to myself that I
(28:37):
want to be, like I want to be just so
steadfast least sticking by my own spirit. And and so
when all that emotion comes out, that's honestly what got
me through is just time and time again coming to
a point of like this can all be here and
(28:57):
it's okay, and like you can feel this all, I
can feel it all. It's not too much. It just is,
you know. And yeah, I mean that is a gorgeous
sentiment about sort of reaching back and and being the
person that you needed and the person you wish was
(29:23):
there for you. And I mean a lot of a
lot of my experience, particularly in the past year, has
been sort of toggling back to that time, to the
childhood time, and all of the ways that like little
me was not able to be and and that is
(29:49):
like a hard thing to reconcile when basically like your
middle age you know. Um, But also I think really
important for the person now to be able to know
that like, no, you're not bad, You're not ter, Like
(30:10):
everything you do isn't bad because because that's like my
struggle is like I've been like terminally bad my whole life.
I've been bad at work, I've been bad at school,
I've been bad in relationships. I'm a bad daughter, I'm
a bad sister, I'm a badness. I'm a bad that.
And and and also you know, the sort of degree
(30:31):
of forgiveness around you know, forgiving other people and forgiving
yourself and figuring out that. I mean, I think that
so many people struggle with the sort of self love
piece of things. Um, but keeping that in mind about
how like how you can be there for you is
really beautiful. And like I think that also your vulnerability,
(30:55):
I'm guessing is something that allows you to connect with
other people, like through your music, but probably personally. Yeah,
I think that is something that I can that's like
a gift that I have, that I have been given
and that sometimes I'm self conscious about because I am
(31:16):
so much in my like heart space, and sometimes I'm
just feel so much that I worry that it's like
too much for friends or people, and I'm like, am
I just a storm of like feeling all the time?
You know? But but I think that it is like
(31:38):
a cool tool. I mean, so, do you feel like
it's hard for you to do that within like relationships
or do you have access to do that? Very hard?
Very hard, feels very dangerous. It feels like, yeah, yeah,
it's it's it's extremely hard because I think that when
(32:02):
you've been told your whole life you're like too much,
you're too loud, you're too big, you're too aggressive, you're
too this, you're too that, and you make yourself small
in a lot of ways because you don't want to
burden somebody, or you don't want your problems to be
their problems, or you know, it's I mean, telling my
parents about my diagnosis is one of the hardest things
(32:24):
I've ever done. And I had to tell them I
was gay, and that's like that seemed hard at the time,
but this seemed harder because you're tracking back through your
whole life and they're tracking back and they're like, is
this an indictment on my parenting? Is this? This? Is?
It's that whatever you know? And so, but like there's
(32:48):
there's such a cost to vulnerability to me, it seems
and when but it's beautiful when you're proven wrong, right,
Like you take a risk and people step up for you,
and that's like that and then you're allowing them to
do that for you, thus creating some kind of connection
(33:12):
or bond. But it's hard to see that many steps
in advance. I think for me, you know, it's amazing
that you're able to see like almost outside of it,
like to be able to talk about it like this,
and you know, like that must have been a journey
to get there, to to I mean, it's amazing that
(33:33):
you're able to like articulate to yourself or understand like
what's even happening. Yeah, I think I barely can still,
But it's I guess you know, if you've ever felt
a compulsion like you have to do a thing, like
I felt like I had to figure out what was
going on with me and what had been going on
with me for my whole life. There was a sense
(33:56):
of urgency in sort of addressing that part of myself
and slowly inviting other people in to That has definitely
been hard because the reactions have gone from like stone
face like what to like, to like oh cool, um,
(34:20):
like when are we going like to get pizza or something,
you know, like like real nonchalant, to like what the
fuck are you talking about? Um? So yeah, And I mean,
I'm very good at compartmentalizing. So like I'm compartmentmentalizing this interview,
and I compartmentalize every interview that I do around this,
and and I every you know, recorded myself having meltdowns
(34:44):
and shared them with my producers, and I have to
compartmentalize that because if I think about it, I'm like,
oh my god, these these people who I'm working with
are hearing me at my worst. Um, and that's really hard.
So I just pretend like it didn't happen in the
first place. But and so, so I'll make this show
(35:05):
and then I'll put it out there and pretend like
I never made it. You know, Wow, Hopefully no one
talks to me about wow. And I mean, who knows
how you'll feel when when it's out and there in
the world. And like, I mean, how I when I
make something vulnerable there's the word again. I guess when
(35:29):
I make something like that though and put it out
in the world, I do feel like I've grown. Like
the main thing I take out of it is like
I've grown and now what that piece of work means
to anyone else, it's awesome like that that record songs.
I'm in a new stage of life. That's an encapsulation
of a period I was in. I'm not reliving that
(35:50):
over and over again. I learned from making it and
now I'm in a new stage, right, And that's that's
a cool. Part of it is like we don't lose.
We get to like gain a lot from diving into
these explorations of creating and of like sharing, I think,
(36:14):
and to a certain degree, it is like a skin
you can kind of shed, maybe like and it is
a gift you're giving to the world because they get
to then through just similar to how you're describing that
you had a moment driving down the road in the
desert listening to my song and it helped you access
your emotion. You cried, which to me is like a
(36:37):
positive thing because it's like movement of energy. So similarly,
this very show that you're creating could do the same
for others. Like in a way, once you've moved on
and you're you're totally in another chapter, digging into something
else and thinking about something else and working on something else,
(36:58):
some other part of yourself, this thing could ripple out
into helping people, helping change people's lives, you know, like
because you are sharing something real, you know that it
takes a lot. I do think it takes a lot
of courage to do that and share a part of
(37:19):
yourself like that. Adrianlinker is the lead singer of the
Grammy nominated indie rock band Big Thief. You can check
out the band's latest album, Dragon, New War Mountain, I
Believe In You on all the music streaming services. If
(37:40):
you want to learn more about adrian solo work, hit
up Adrianlinker dot com. This episode was produced by David
Jah and edited by Sophie Crane, mix engineering by Jake Gorsky.
Thanks to you friend for listening.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.