May 14, 2025 • 27 mins
Newly elected Prime Minister Anthony Albanese joins chief political correspondent David Crowe and federal political reporter Paul Sakkal for an exclusive interview on Inside Politics. They chat about the new Labor cabinet, Albanese's thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a new phrase the prime minister is trying out - progressive patriotism.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
Jacqueline Maley. It's Wednesday, May 14th. Today we bring you
a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
(00:22):
his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
S2 (00:33):
Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
you for having time to talk to us. Good to
be here. And so soon after the formation of your
new ministry. And just as you head off on some
important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I thought
we would start with one of the things that you're
heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass for
(00:54):
Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week as
an important moment for you to go and meet world leaders,
but it also has an important aspect of faith. And
you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to your
mother in her life, and I wanted to ask about
that as an opening question. How important is your faith
in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
S3 (01:17):
I think these issues are a matter of your own
development as well, and it's a part of who I am,
my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements I
made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate was
that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something that's
(01:38):
a part of how I was raised in the Catholic
faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly vulnerable people.
I believe in a separation of church and state. So
I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to do
an affirmation because I think that as the Australian Prime Minister,
(02:01):
I represent people of every faith and no faith. And
so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other people
who swear on the Bible or the Koran in Ali's case,
is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice. But
for me, that's a personal choice that I make and
(02:23):
have made. But I say I was raised with three
great faiths the Labor Party, South Sydney and the Catholic Church,
and it will be an incredible honour for me to
be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have in my
office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother sent away
(02:43):
from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI, who
visited Australia, of course, and went to my street, Pyrmont
Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across the road.
And that was a great moment in my mum's life,
I Life. I remember it very deeply, and I still
(03:05):
have the book that my mum had. All the memorabilia
from the papal visit at that time is one of
my cherished possessions.
S2 (03:14):
There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers. They
don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
is about. Do you think that there is a moral
purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
S3 (03:28):
I think there absolutely has to be a moral purpose
to politics. For me, it's about how do you make
people's lives better. It's captured in a statement that I
made many times during the election campaign. No one held back,
no one left behind. That that is a part of
(03:49):
our purpose in politics is to make a difference to
people's lives.
S1 (03:54):
Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
the face of the country. I wonder what you think
the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
(04:16):
proves that in a more cosmopolitan world, labor is the
natural party of government, not your opponents.
S3 (04:22):
I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
I think if you look at what we seek to
represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
(04:46):
the people who many people really need a Labour government
to make a difference to their lives. I think that
our destiny is to try to be the natural party
of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
(05:09):
was who was seeking to bring people together and who
was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
people against each other.
S1 (05:22):
Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
S3 (05:31):
Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
we also very much believe in markets and that markets
are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
(05:53):
I believe in a private sector being the key driver
of growth, but the public sector should step in where
there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
is one way that it's been called. You know, we
spoke about doing things the Australian way, uh, not looking
(06:16):
towards any other, uh, method or ideology from overseas to
try to copy. If we get this right, we can
be increasingly successful. I look at the caucus, and I
have very consciously tried to bring in to the caucus
as well, a broad range of people from different backgrounds.
(06:37):
We are so much more.
S1 (06:38):
Than yourself, right? A lot of these caucus members, you
you played a more hands on role in picking candidates
than most party leaders.
S3 (06:45):
Well, I had a focus from 2022 of, uh, where
are we going to be at in 2025 and work
our way back rather than just go through? And you've
got to be a bit like, uh, I guess the
coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
(07:06):
in May or June, you win it in September. How
do you peak in September? How do you get the
right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
do you get the right framing so that when it
really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
the Australian people going forward? That's something that I did
(07:26):
from 2019 through to my first term as as opposition
leader to bring us into government. It's something that we
consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums internal
to the party that we engage with as well, not
just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
S2 (07:49):
You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
lot of people regard patriotism as a bad thing, you know, because.
Because it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious
of that as a factor through the campaign? And is
it going to be something that guides you now in
(08:09):
this second term?
S3 (08:10):
I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
(08:32):
who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
should be really proud of. We should be proud of
what we've created here. And I think in terms of
the broader global issues as well, that at a time
(08:56):
where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
divided on the basis of race or religion. Here in Australia,
we can be a microcosm for the world. That says
that we're enriched by our diversity, that we have respect
for people of different faiths. That we try to bring
people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas and play
(09:19):
out that conflict here either. And that's really important. This
is a project, if you like, that's not just about
strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the globe
in how humanity can move forward.
S2 (09:39):
Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
S3 (09:58):
Not at all. We're focused, is what we are. And
we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
had a plan for more than one term for a
(10:22):
long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
that is why so many things that we've set out
for this term were things that built on what we
had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
(10:45):
the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
(11:06):
But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
given them.
S2 (11:25):
What do you think of the observation that's been made
by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
because of the size of the number of seats that
you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
this term, but the next one as well.
S3 (11:37):
Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
take anything for granted. And some of those same people
were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
we had for a may election and that we could
(12:00):
be successful, and we put those measures in place and
we received the support of the Australian people. I want
to get our primary vote up higher at the next
election than we did this time. But if you look
at the work that we've done, it is significant that
over a period of time it had been dropping. We
(12:21):
did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
(12:43):
to be a good government.
S2 (12:44):
Did it exceed your expectations?
S3 (12:46):
I expected us to win a majority government the whole
way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
never saw that as what the outcome would be. The
outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
(13:07):
you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
here and here. But chances are you don't get all
of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
S1 (13:27):
Can I just ask.
S3 (13:28):
Bullwinkel.
S1 (13:28):
On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
of your ministers said that when you would talk about
those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
S3 (13:45):
The evidence is there because I thought we had the
right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
I also saw that I know what it takes to
take an opposition into government. I did serious policies, fully
costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a series
(14:08):
of vision statements. I went to the National Press Club regularly.
I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable, we did
hard work and I didn't see the opposition doing laying
that groundwork that you need and thought they would be very,
very vulnerable during an election campaign. I unusually agreed to
(14:31):
four debates. Some in my own team said that was
crazy brave. I think it was the right thing to do.
I went to the National Press Club. I did all
of that. And I also thought that the Greens political
party were vulnerable. I saw that in my local community
that they had lost their way in blocking Labour's housing
(14:56):
reforms and not being a party which concentrated on the
environment and on issues that mattered most to people.
S1 (15:05):
Just on the on the size of the win. Prime Minister,
do you feel a sense of and I think there's
an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
I think Trump allowed you to project as a center
left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
(15:27):
there a chance that we're overanalyzing the labor win? Because
the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
S3 (15:36):
No, I think that some of the commentariat have, uh,
looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
touch last year.
S1 (15:47):
In the media.
S3 (15:48):
Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
position for a government if you look historically in Australia
for polls that have been around for a long period
of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
(16:10):
we're on 49 is going into an election is a
strong position for a government. You know, if you're in, uh,
trying to, uh, get to government, you've got to have
a narrative, an offer. We had as well, I think
(16:30):
a record that we were proud of, that we could
talk about, that people could recognise. The Australian people have
done it tough, uh, over Covid under the former government.
And then that due to supply chain issues and a
range of things, including international factors, led to cost of
living pressures. People know that we were trying to do
(16:53):
something about it. Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures
and we had got inflation down. Dan interest rates starting
to fall. Real wages up and employment was strong. There
are a set of economic numbers that are the envy
of other parts of the industrialized world. So we had
(17:16):
a good story to tell. We've done that whilst at
the same time doing major reform. The aged care reforms
are the biggest reforms this century. The clean energy transformation
what we're doing on a future made in Australia, the
childcare reforms, the completion of the National Broadband Network, the
rolling out of infrastructure projects. We had done a pretty
(17:41):
comprehensive plan across the range of portfolios that were there,
but we also had the forward offer that we started
to roll out from last November with the free TAFE extension,
with the 20% cut in student debt, and then had
a series of major announcements, including, the most significant of
(18:05):
which was strengthening Medicare that we did in Launceston in
the electorate of bass. And so we had a very
clear plan. I outlined that to colleagues. I also outlined
where it would be successful. It's no accident. The major
announcements that we made prior to the election were being called.
(18:26):
Were in Stuart, in Griffith, in bass. That's where we
were thinking that we could be positive in and seats
like Braddon. There's no doubt in my mind that if
Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be. Incredibly generous in leaving
(18:47):
a Senate spot which she wasn't even up for election on,
to risk running for a seat where Labour was on 42%
at the last election. She could win that seat. And
she did with, uh, the largest swing in the country, 15%.
S2 (19:04):
We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
But first up on the mandate on what this election
means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
but how much flexibility does that give you in being
bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
(19:26):
of the first term. Do you accept that there was
some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
And will that change in the second term?
S3 (19:37):
I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
(19:58):
that green metals will be produced, for Jewish, for example.
There's nothing timid about that. We intervened in the gas
and coal markets to put a cap on gas and
coal prices. If you had of said we were going
to do that prior to 2022, then some of the
commentariat would have completely lost any perspective at all. We
(20:24):
did it firmly, clearly, because it was in the interests
of the Australian people. We changed our mind for good
reasons and explained it on the tax cuts to give
a tax cut to every Australian. We transformed the first
stage of reforms on childcare. We repaired our relations with
(20:46):
the world, with China, with Asean, with the Pacific Island Forum.
We were a government that were ambitious across economic, social,
environmental and international politics. And we did it in a
way that attempted to bring people with us wherever possible.
(21:08):
I mean, we did to note just one example in
a specific area, the ban on live sheep export. We
were told some that that would cost us, you know,
every seat in Western Australia and would cost us dearly.
The truth is, we've not only held every seat with
(21:28):
increased margins, most of them are in WA. We've won
Bullwinkle and have won more. People said that was a
high watermark for labor in WA. Well, that high water
mark just rose. And that was a decision where I
sat down with the industry in my office. I met
(21:52):
people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we were doing it.
We had a commitment to do it. We carried it
out and we won. The argument, if you like, and
we have a package to bring people with us. And
hopefully now people will say, okay, this transition is going
to occur. How do we protect our people as that
(22:14):
transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs? Because you
get more jobs from processing sheep meat than you do
from putting them on a ship and shipping them to
the Middle East? How do we get advantage of that? But,
you know, I completely think that, uh, you know, my
(22:35):
government did what we said we would do in some areas.
We went further because circumstances changed, like the cap on
gas and coal prices. But my government is also determined
to look at what it was that we took to
the election on May 3rd and to set about implementing
(22:58):
that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
S2 (23:00):
Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
the lead up to the election?
S3 (23:15):
Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
S2 (23:18):
Interested in your opinion.
S3 (23:19):
To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
would occur.
S1 (23:29):
Um, and your expectations, you know.
S3 (23:32):
Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
There is no time where I said anything different privately
from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
(23:54):
for those people who said that was, uh, playing mind games,
I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
France can win this seat. I think she will win
this seat. And she did.
S1 (24:09):
And those words on the day. So I'll put my
hand up on that one. And you told me I
was silly on the day. Yeah.
S3 (24:14):
Well, you know. See, I was very direct.
S2 (24:17):
One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
was out to get you. Do you think they were
out to get you in that campaign?
S3 (24:28):
Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't say that. Um, but look,
people will make, uh, their own judgment as to what, uh,
some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
(24:50):
my job is to do is to go out there
and put forward, uh, Labor's positive agenda. And I think
as well that people if there is a consistent view
coming through and people can have a look themselves at
what the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
(25:13):
they take that into account. I think they know that
that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
(25:34):
known each other for some time. Uh, when I came
into this building, I didn't come here with an expectation
of being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps, uh, not
having that sense of destiny has been one of the
things that was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number
(25:54):
of people in the media said to me, you look
like you're enjoying it. And yeah, I was, uh, I
loved the campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's
an opportunity to talk to the Australian people about their future.
And now our task is to make sure that we
deliver on that better future. I think that the policies
(26:17):
that we've put forward across the board are about that,
and I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to
be able to deliver it.
S2 (26:25):
Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
appreciate your time.
S3 (26:31):
Thanks very much.
S1 (26:35):
Today's episode was produced by Julia Karkazis with technical assistance
from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
our podcast as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.
To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
Age or smh.com.au. I'm Paul Sekal, thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
Jacqueline Maley. It's Wednesday, May 14th. Today we bring you
a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
(00:22):
his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
S2 (00:33):
Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
you for having time to talk to us. Good to
be here. And so soon after the formation of your
new ministry. And just as you head off on some
important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I thought
we would start with one of the things that you're
heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass for
(00:54):
Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week as
an important moment for you to go and meet world leaders,
but it also has an important aspect of faith. And
you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to your
mother in her life, and I wanted to ask about
that as an opening question. How important is your faith
in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
S3 (01:17):
I think these issues are a matter of your own
development as well, and it's a part of who I am,
my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements I
made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate was
that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something that's
(01:38):
a part of how I was raised in the Catholic
faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly vulnerable people.
I believe in a separation of church and state. So
I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to do
an affirmation because I think that as the Australian Prime Minister,
(02:01):
I represent people of every faith and no faith. And
so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other people
who swear on the Bible or the Koran in Ali's case,
is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice. But
for me, that's a personal choice that I make and
(02:23):
have made. But I say I was raised with three
great faiths the Labor Party, South Sydney and the Catholic Church,
and it will be an incredible honour for me to
be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have in my
office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother sent away
(02:43):
from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI, who
visited Australia, of course, and went to my street, Pyrmont
Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across the road.
And that was a great moment in my mum's life,
I Life. I remember it very deeply, and I still
(03:05):
have the book that my mum had. All the memorabilia
from the papal visit at that time is one of
my cherished possessions.
S2 (03:14):
There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers. They
don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
is about. Do you think that there is a moral
purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
S3 (03:28):
I think there absolutely has to be a moral purpose
to politics. For me, it's about how do you make
people's lives better. It's captured in a statement that I
made many times during the election campaign. No one held back,
no one left behind. That that is a part of
(03:49):
our purpose in politics is to make a difference to
people's lives.
S1 (03:54):
Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
the face of the country. I wonder what you think
the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
(04:16):
proves that in a more cosmopolitan world, labor is the
natural party of government, not your opponents.
S3 (04:22):
I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
I think if you look at what we seek to
represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
(04:46):
the people who many people really need a Labour government
to make a difference to their lives. I think that
our destiny is to try to be the natural party
of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
(05:09):
was who was seeking to bring people together and who
was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
people against each other.
S1 (05:22):
Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
S3 (05:31):
Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
we also very much believe in markets and that markets
are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
(05:53):
I believe in a private sector being the key driver
of growth, but the public sector should step in where
there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
is one way that it's been called. You know, we
spoke about doing things the Australian way, uh, not looking
(06:16):
towards any other, uh, method or ideology from overseas to
try to copy. If we get this right, we can
be increasingly successful. I look at the caucus, and I
have very consciously tried to bring in to the caucus
as well, a broad range of people from different backgrounds.
(06:37):
We are so much more.
S1 (06:38):
Than yourself, right? A lot of these caucus members, you
you played a more hands on role in picking candidates
than most party leaders.
S3 (06:45):
Well, I had a focus from 2022 of, uh, where
are we going to be at in 2025 and work
our way back rather than just go through? And you've
got to be a bit like, uh, I guess the
coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
(07:06):
in May or June, you win it in September. How
do you peak in September? How do you get the
right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
do you get the right framing so that when it
really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
the Australian people going forward? That's something that I did
(07:26):
from 2019 through to my first term as as opposition
leader to bring us into government. It's something that we
consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums internal
to the party that we engage with as well, not
just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
S2 (07:49):
You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
lot of people regard patriotism as a bad thing, you know, because.
Because it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious
of that as a factor through the campaign? And is
it going to be something that guides you now in
(08:09):
this second term?
S3 (08:10):
I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
(08:32):
who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
should be really proud of. We should be proud of
what we've created here. And I think in terms of
the broader global issues as well, that at a time
(08:56):
where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
divided on the basis of race or religion. Here in Australia,
we can be a microcosm for the world. That says
that we're enriched by our diversity, that we have respect
for people of different faiths. That we try to bring
people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas and play
(09:19):
out that conflict here either. And that's really important. This
is a project, if you like, that's not just about
strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the globe
in how humanity can move forward.
S2 (09:39):
Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
S3 (09:58):
Not at all. We're focused, is what we are. And
we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
had a plan for more than one term for a
(10:22):
long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
that is why so many things that we've set out
for this term were things that built on what we
had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
(10:45):
the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
(11:06):
But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
given them.
S2 (11:25):
What do you think of the observation that's been made
by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
because of the size of the number of seats that
you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
this term, but the next one as well.
S3 (11:37):
Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
take anything for granted. And some of those same people
were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
we had for a may election and that we could
(12:00):
be successful, and we put those measures in place and
we received the support of the Australian people. I want
to get our primary vote up higher at the next
election than we did this time. But if you look
at the work that we've done, it is significant that
over a period of time it had been dropping. We
(12:21):
did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
(12:43):
to be a good government.
S2 (12:44):
Did it exceed your expectations?
S3 (12:46):
I expected us to win a majority government the whole
way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
never saw that as what the outcome would be. The
outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
(13:07):
you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
here and here. But chances are you don't get all
of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
S1 (13:27):
Can I just ask.
S3 (13:28):
Bullwinkel.
S1 (13:28):
On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
of your ministers said that when you would talk about
those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
S3 (13:45):
The evidence is there because I thought we had the
right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
I also saw that I know what it takes to
take an opposition into government. I did serious policies, fully
costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a series
(14:08):
of vision statements. I went to the National Press Club regularly.
I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable, we did
hard work and I didn't see the opposition doing laying
that groundwork that you need and thought they would be very,
very vulnerable during an election campaign. I unusually agreed to
(14:31):
four debates. Some in my own team said that was
crazy brave. I think it was the right thing to do.
I went to the National Press Club. I did all
of that. And I also thought that the Greens political
party were vulnerable. I saw that in my local community
that they had lost their way in blocking Labour's housing
(14:56):
reforms and not being a party which concentrated on the
environment and on issues that mattered most to people.
S1 (15:05):
Just on the on the size of the win. Prime Minister,
do you feel a sense of and I think there's
an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
I think Trump allowed you to project as a center
left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
(15:27):
there a chance that we're overanalyzing the labor win? Because
the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
S3 (15:36):
No, I think that some of the commentariat have, uh,
looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
touch last year.
S1 (15:47):
In the media.
S3 (15:48):
Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
position for a government if you look historically in Australia
for polls that have been around for a long period
of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
(16:10):
we're on 49 is going into an election is a
strong position for a government. You know, if you're in, uh,
trying to, uh, get to government, you've got to have
a narrative, an offer. We had as well, I think
(16:30):
a record that we were proud of, that we could
talk about, that people could recognise. The Australian people have
done it tough, uh, over Covid under the former government.
And then that due to supply chain issues and a
range of things, including international factors, led to cost of
living pressures. People know that we were trying to do
(16:53):
something about it. Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures
and we had got inflation down. Dan interest rates starting
to fall. Real wages up and employment was strong. There
are a set of economic numbers that are the envy
of other parts of the industrialized world. So we had
(17:16):
a good story to tell. We've done that whilst at
the same time doing major reform. The aged care reforms
are the biggest reforms this century. The clean energy transformation
what we're doing on a future made in Australia, the
childcare reforms, the completion of the National Broadband Network, the
rolling out of infrastructure projects. We had done a pretty
(17:41):
comprehensive plan across the range of portfolios that were there,
but we also had the forward offer that we started
to roll out from last November with the free TAFE extension,
with the 20% cut in student debt, and then had
a series of major announcements, including, the most significant of
(18:05):
which was strengthening Medicare that we did in Launceston in
the electorate of bass. And so we had a very
clear plan. I outlined that to colleagues. I also outlined
where it would be successful. It's no accident. The major
announcements that we made prior to the election were being called.
(18:26):
Were in Stuart, in Griffith, in bass. That's where we
were thinking that we could be positive in and seats
like Braddon. There's no doubt in my mind that if
Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be. Incredibly generous in leaving
(18:47):
a Senate spot which she wasn't even up for election on,
to risk running for a seat where Labour was on 42%
at the last election. She could win that seat. And
she did with, uh, the largest swing in the country, 15%.
S2 (19:04):
We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
But first up on the mandate on what this election
means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
but how much flexibility does that give you in being
bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
(19:26):
of the first term. Do you accept that there was
some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
And will that change in the second term?
S3 (19:37):
I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
(19:58):
that green metals will be produced, for Jewish, for example.
There's nothing timid about that. We intervened in the gas
and coal markets to put a cap on gas and
coal prices. If you had of said we were going
to do that prior to 2022, then some of the
commentariat would have completely lost any perspective at all. We
(20:24):
did it firmly, clearly, because it was in the interests
of the Australian people. We changed our mind for good
reasons and explained it on the tax cuts to give
a tax cut to every Australian. We transformed the first
stage of reforms on childcare. We repaired our relations with
(20:46):
the world, with China, with Asean, with the Pacific Island Forum.
We were a government that were ambitious across economic, social,
environmental and international politics. And we did it in a
way that attempted to bring people with us wherever possible.
(21:08):
I mean, we did to note just one example in
a specific area, the ban on live sheep export. We
were told some that that would cost us, you know,
every seat in Western Australia and would cost us dearly.
The truth is, we've not only held every seat with
(21:28):
increased margins, most of them are in WA. We've won
Bullwinkle and have won more. People said that was a
high watermark for labor in WA. Well, that high water
mark just rose. And that was a decision where I
sat down with the industry in my office. I met
(21:52):
people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we were doing it.
We had a commitment to do it. We carried it
out and we won. The argument, if you like, and
we have a package to bring people with us. And
hopefully now people will say, okay, this transition is going
to occur. How do we protect our people as that
(22:14):
transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs? Because you
get more jobs from processing sheep meat than you do
from putting them on a ship and shipping them to
the Middle East? How do we get advantage of that? But,
you know, I completely think that, uh, you know, my
(22:35):
government did what we said we would do in some areas.
We went further because circumstances changed, like the cap on
gas and coal prices. But my government is also determined
to look at what it was that we took to
the election on May 3rd and to set about implementing
(22:58):
that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
S2 (23:00):
Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
the lead up to the election?
S3 (23:15):
Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
S2 (23:18):
Interested in your opinion.
S3 (23:19):
To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
would occur.
S1 (23:29):
Um, and your expectations, you know.
S3 (23:32):
Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
There is no time where I said anything different privately
from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
(23:54):
for those people who said that was, uh, playing mind games,
I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
France can win this seat. I think she will win
this seat. And she did.
S1 (24:09):
And those words on the day. So I'll put my
hand up on that one. And you told me I
was silly on the day. Yeah.
S3 (24:14):
Well, you know. See, I was very direct.
S2 (24:17):
One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
was out to get you. Do you think they were
out to get you in that campaign?
S3 (24:28):
Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't say that. Um, but look,
people will make, uh, their own judgment as to what, uh,
some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
(24:50):
my job is to do is to go out there
and put forward, uh, Labor's positive agenda. And I think
as well that people if there is a consistent view
coming through and people can have a look themselves at
what the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
(25:13):
they take that into account. I think they know that
that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
(25:34):
known each other for some time. Uh, when I came
into this building, I didn't come here with an expectation
of being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps, uh, not
having that sense of destiny has been one of the
things that was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number
(25:54):
of people in the media said to me, you look
like you're enjoying it. And yeah, I was, uh, I
loved the campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's
an opportunity to talk to the Australian people about their future.
And now our task is to make sure that we
deliver on that better future. I think that the policies
(26:17):
that we've put forward across the board are about that,
and I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to
be able to deliver it.
S2 (26:25):
Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
appreciate your time.
S3 (26:31):
Thanks very much.
S1 (26:35):
Today's episode was produced by Julia Karkazis with technical assistance
from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
our podcast as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.
To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
Age or smh.com.au. I'm Paul Sekal, thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com