August 30, 2023 • 22 mins
How can employers better support employees with complex mental health needs? In this episode, Holly (they/them) talks about their challenges at work, and disclosure, flexibility, and support options in the workplace. Jess Radican (she/her) from SANE talks about the strengths that people with lived experience bring to the workplace.
On the Same Wavelength is a collaboration between the University of Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences, and SANE, Australia’s leading national mental health organisation for people with complex mental health needs, with the support of the Paul Ramsay Foundation. It is hosted by Elise Carrotte, and edited by Chris Hatzis.
Information and resources:
- National Stigma Report Card
- Overview of mental health-related rights and responsibilities in the workplace (Comcare)
- SANE’s Peer Guide program and Peer Support initiatives
- SANE’s information and resources
- Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences
If this podcast has brought up any challenging feelings for you, please consider reaching out to Lifeline via 13 11 14.
This podcast was recorded on the unceded lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and we wish to pay respects to elders past and present, and extend our respects to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander listeners.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elise (00:05):
Hello and welcome to On the Same Wavelength where we
explore how we can make a better world for people
living with complex mental health issues. I'm your host, Elise.
In this episode, we're focusing on workplaces, whether it's an
office setting, hospitality, healthcare , a trade or working from home,
most of us will spend a huge portion of our
(00:26):
life at work. Work can impact our mental health and
vice versa, our mental health can obviously impact our work, too.
Indeed, the National Stigma Report Card found that over 77%
of participants experienced some level of stigma or discrimination in
employment during the last year, and over 80% had stopped
themselves from discussing their mental health needs and experiences at
(00:48):
work because of stigma. So why is stigma so prolific
in workplace settings? And how can we make workplaces more
mentally healthy?
In this episode, we'll be meeting Peer Ambassador Holly, who
will talk about their lived experience in workplace settings. I
also chat with Jess English from SANE about some of
the work SANE is doing to support people with lived
(01:09):
experience in the workforce.
Just a quick note that this episode touches on topics
including bipolar disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, suicide and self-harm.
And like all our episodes, we talk about stigma and discrimination.
So please only listen today if it feels right for you.
Holly (01:27):
So my name is Holly. I'm from Sydney, but living in
Melbourne for the last five or so years.
Um, I'm a physiotherapist at a private practice in the
northern suburbs of Melbourne.
Elise (01:39):
Holly was a gymnast for many years. Their interests include
audio books, crochet and quad- ball. In addition to their
work as a physio, Holly is a mental health
advocate with organisations SANE and batyr.
I asked Holly about when they first noticed that something
wasn't right in terms of their mental health. But this
was a little trickier to pinpoint.
Holly (01:58):
Retrospectively, there was some stuff going on in primary school.
I was getting bullied quite badly, and I know that
my mum sent me to the school counsellor. I didn't
really know why at the time. In retrospect, that probably
means that she noticed something wasn't quite right. I think
when things really started to sort of
take off was around the ages of 14 to 15,
(02:20):
which which was sort of where my eating disorder started. Um,
my mood had sort of been going on since sort
of beginning of high school, but sort of when I
was about sort of that year eight, year nine was
when it was really starting to sort of get quite bad.
Elise (02:38):
Holly was trying their best to manage things themselves.
Holly (02:42):
I guess I was naturally, always very good at school.
Um and so even though my mental health was pretty terrible,
it wasn't really picked up because I was still performing
well at school. I was still managing to, um, meet
all these requirements. Um, when realistically, that was part of
(03:05):
the problem. In terms of I had quite a high
drive for perfectionism and therefore my studies were not going
to be as impacted.
Elise (03:16):
Heading into university, Holly was struggling with self harm and
suicidal ideation in their second or third year of uni
things were at a crisis point.
Holly (03:26):
I sort of got to the point where my the
psychologist at headspace was like, "Look,
I either call the ambulance for you now, or we
tell your parents", and that was a pretty big wake
up call.
Elise (03:36):
Holly accessed outpatient treatment and then an inpatient stay in hospital.
But recovery was not a linear process.
Holly (03:44):
The eating disorder really stuck around. Um, mood was crap, but, like,
I didn't really focus on the mood because I was
too involved with anorexia, I was too sort of focused
on that.
I went over to Europe and everything spiralled. I got back,
(04:06):
and within two weeks, I was in hospital undergoing treatment
for anorexia.
Elise (04:12):
Then, Holly experienced more challenges after moving from Sydney to Melbourne
to complete their postgraduate physio degree.
Holly (04:19):
So I've been diagnosed with bipolar, so bipolar II to
be more sort of exact. In 2020 I had what
we now recognise as a quite severe mixed episode.
Um, that landed me in hospital for three months total
(04:41):
across two admissions. And when, when you've got this mixed episode,
I sort of describe it as depression, but faster. And
you sort of have the symptoms of this hypermani sort
of state where
you've got sort of high high levels of arousal. You're
highly distressed... I was recklessly spending, um, sort of really agitated, really,
(05:04):
Like unable to sort of
sit down and stop and all of that, but at
the same time having that really deep depression where I
was really quite suicidal, self harming.
Elise (05:15):
Since that time, things have gotten better.
Holly (05:18):
Like I've still had to deal with my mental health, but
they've never got... I haven't had to have a hospital
admission or even consider one... we've had to do like
we had to do like one slight med change. But
it's overall been pretty okay.
Elise (05:35):
Holly has a supportive partner and friends who 'get it' and
check in with each other. They also have four key
players in their treatment team
a dietician, who all support their well being in different ways.
Holly (05:49):
In terms of the psychologist, generally working with the sort
of cognitive distortions. Um, I've also got borderline personality disorder,so I
work a lot with the sort of thought patterns and
all of that that comes with the disorder.
(06:13):
And also working on the sort of management of mood
management of any of the sort of leftover eating disorder
stuff going on.
I and then I see a dietician to sort of
keep in touch. Regarding sort of, 'Am I eating enough?',
(06:35):
and like my behaviours around food.
Elise (06:37):
But even though things are pretty good at the moment,
mental health is still something that Holly needs to navigate
in day to day life, including at work.
Holly works as a physiotherapist in a private practice. They
also work in research in the field of physiotherapy and disability.
Holly (06:59):
I'm generally more interested in sort of your neurological physiotherapy,
so I find the brain fascinating. So I've got a
number of patients with multiple sclerosis. A couple of that
have had strokes, Um, a couple of like one or
two with Parkinson's and sort of that neurological side of things.
(07:20):
I also see some paediatrics. Um, I was a gymnastics
coach for quite a few years as well, so I
really like working with kids.
Elise (07:27):
I asked Holly about navigating their lived experience in the workplace.
Holly (07:31):
It's a really sort of challenging area to sort of navigate because
you never you can never really predict what's going to
happen with how or how people are going to respond.
Elise (07:40):
Initially, they started in a part time role - which worked well.
Holly (07:44):
I knew I wanted the option to progress to full time.
Um and so I was really happy to hear that
That was an option going forward.
So it was really easy to sort of go with,
because without any explanation to start at a reduced reduced hours,
(08:04):
I didn't have to explain anything.
Elise (08:09):
Even though Holly works in a health care setting and
has been there for some time now, they still don't
feel comfortable discussing or disclosing their lived experience explicitly.
Holly (08:19):
Even though I'm in health care, there's still a stigma,
you still feel that when there's a patient that comes
in that's got some complex mental health, and they sort
of assume they're quite low functioning.
Um, and I don't like the words high functioning, low functioning.
I have a bit of an issue with that, but
(08:40):
I don't have a better word to describe it, but
they there are quite a lot of assumptions made and
sort of reservations, when you hear things like 'bipolar', 'schizophrenia'.
Like I think the workplaces have become quite used to
(09:00):
anxiety and depression and that sort of, um, sort of
your more common, um, mental illness. But then when you
get into sort of that more complex side of things
where you've got bipolar, you've got schizophrenia, you've got other
forms of psychosis, that sort of thing. Um, I don't
think workplaces are necessarily as responsive.
Elise (09:23):
Their workplace's attitude towards mental health has led Holly to
be wary of what might happen if they talk about
their mental health openly.
Holly (09:31):
I just don't know how people are going to react.
They might react really well, I don't know, but there's
always that fear of Well, if they know that I'm bipolar,
are they gonna suddenly start trading me differently? Are they
going to suddenly think that I'm unfit for for work
Elise (09:57):
In that environment it's standard practice to have goal setting
and risk management procedures, but these practices aren't always designed
with employees mental health in mind.
Holly (10:07):
I was a bit sort of, what do we mean by 'risk management'?
Like make sure there's not a trip hazard in the hallway? ...
but the example that they gave was looking at work
life balance and, um, risk of burnout and all of that.
And I think the words 'risk management' a really sort
of not appropriate for for that sort of setting.
(10:33):
And obviously for me, if I'm going to go by
that definition of risk management, acknowledging my mental health and
treatment and everything. Because without managing that I'm not fit
to work it it wouldn't happen.
Elise (10:47):
But how honest can you really be when you're in a
workplace culture that doesn't really support honest conversations about mental health?
Recovery is often not linear, and people's needs can change,
as can their ability to meet their goals or KPIs.
Holly (11:02):
So say I do disclose. Am I suddenly looked at differently?
Bipolar is really scary. We don't know much about bipolar.
We only really know what we've seen on the TV.
So therefore, now, this is a really scary situation to
be in, like, what do I need to know? When
realistically I'm fully able to work and many people with
(11:24):
bipolar are fully able to work, um, and live fairly
normal lives all in all.
And then if I don't disclose and later on, I
have a episode and need to take time off work,
which is, quite frankly, quite likely given the sort of
progression of bipolar it tends to... You have your episodes,
(11:47):
and that's probably going to happen, whether I'm on medication
or not. And if I don't disclose, that, would come
quite out of the blue.
Elise (12:00):
Plus, like we talked about in our episode about health care professionals.
There's also the question of whether health care workers should
disclose their mental health history to regulatory bodies. For Holly,
it's about weighing up the risks.
Holly (12:12):
And so there's that sort of extra layer of fear of...
Not that I think that would necessarily revoke my licence
to practise. But just that whole process of suddenly having
to jump through these hoops and get letters being like,
'of course, I'm OK to practise.' Um, it just would
just be a very stressful process.
Elise (12:31):
But here's the thing. Having lived experience can absolutely be
a strength in the workplace.
Holly (12:38):
I've definitely found that my experience with mental health has
actually improved my practice.
I also get given all the patients that come in that
sort of are under the NDIS as a psychosocial disability because
the doctor knows that I'm going to understand that a whole
lot more.
I think that in the medical profession they don't necessarily
(13:02):
realise that lived experience is a strength. And that you
are a clinician and you should never have a like
experience in your life? Um, when realistically as a physio,
I've broken two legs. I've dislocated a shoulder. hat is
lived experience of injury. Why is mental health any different?
Elise (13:28):
When making this episode I was thinking about how workplaces
can better support people with complex mental health needs, but
also the value of having people with lived experience in
the workplace.
You would have heard of SANE before. They're Australia's leading
organisation for people with complex mental health needs and one
of the collaborators on this podcast. Here's Jessica English, who
(13:50):
at the time of recording was SANE's Head of Lived Experience.
Jess (13:53):
So I work across the organisation to ensure that people
with lived experience and their friends, families and carers are
involved in the services and programs and decisions that affect them.
So that includes working with our programs such as our
Peer Ambassador programme and our community guides and our peer
workers to be able to ensure that our services are
delivered and designed by people with a lived experience.
(14:13):
I'm also a person with lived experience and it's something
that's really important to me. So I'm really proud to
work for an organisation where lived experience is at the
heart of everything that we do.
Elise (14:22):
But not all organisations have a culture that encourages people
to talk about lived experience, especially in areas where mental health,
literacy or understanding is low and this can have real
impact in the workplace.
Jess (14:34):
Certainly what we hear from talking to people with complex
mental health concerns and their friends, families and carers is
that stigma and discrimination can be a really serious barrier
to supporting someone to either stay in employment or to
re access employment after they might have had periods of
time off work.
And we certainly hear that for a lot of people
who may have experienced complex mental health concerns for an
(14:54):
ongoing period of time, it might not just be one
workplace where they've had this experience, it might be a
cumulative experience as well that can lead to some hesitation
in talking about or seeking support in the workforce for
your mental health.
Elise (15:08):
SANE has a Peer Ambassador programme - that is a group
of people who work with SANE. They use their stories
to raise awareness, reduce stigma and provide hope. Many have
spoken in workplaces.
Jess (15:19):
Programmes like the Peer Ambassador programme are so important in
breaking down those barriers so that those with complex mental
health concerns can have equitable workplaces that are safe.
Elise (15:29):
Everyone has a role in making workplaces more mentally healthy.
Jess feels that things are trending in the right direction.
Jess (15:36):
There is a lot of evidence of change that's happening
in workplaces towards a more psychologically safe environment. And some
ways that workplaces can support staff with lived experience includes
things like improving the mental health, literacy and understandings of
mental health in the workplace.
A lot of workplaces are starting to invest in mentally
healthy workplace initiatives that really support and encourage people to
(15:58):
take proactive steps towards well being. And all of those
things are really important for staff with lived experience, but
also more broadly for the whole organisation.
Workplaces that also embed flexible practices also can be really
supportive f or those who have lived experience. And I think
it just more generally,e very person from time to time
will need flexibility in their work and practice. And that's
(16:18):
particularly important for those who might be living with complex
mental health concerns or caring commitments.
Elise (16:23):
Reasonable adjustments might involve taking time off for appointments or commitments,
changing working hours and so on. It's really about meeting
people where they're at. Jess also told me about a
new initiative at SANE, a Peer Guide programme,
which is building on SANE's history of lived experience based
programmes
Jess (16:41):
The program aims to provide a pathway to peer support for
people who might be considering a career in peer support
or those who may have been unemployed or underemployed as
a result of the life changing impacts of mental health concerns.
Elise (16:54):
Peer support is about the mutual connection and conversations that
happen between people who have a shared experience. In this case,
it's about sharing parts of a journey with intention to
connect with others and build supportive relationships.
Jess (17:08):
We're hoping to give participants the opportunity to access training,
peer mentoring and practical experience in peer support that could
help them to lead to employment, education or community participation.
Elise (17:19):
Programmes like this can hopefully help participants recovery, build social
connection and help them achieve their goals.
Holly told me about a positive experience with workplace disclosure
in the past. This is in the context of their
research job.
Holly (17:38):
I told my supervisor that 'Hey, look, we've got a
planned hospital admission coming up just giving you a heads up.
I'm not gonna be able to, um I'm not going
to be able to be in the office.'
And, um, she was really supportive.
Elise (17:54):
They've developed a really trusting relationship where Holly is able
to work flexibly and aligned with their mental health needs.
Holly (18:01):
That day, like she noticed that I was pretty anxious
and on edge. And once we had our meeting in
the morning, she was like, 'Look, if you at any
point in time, you need to go home and work
from home, that's absolutely fine.'
So she had picked that up, and ever since, she's
been really supportive. And when she's asked about increasing hours
(18:23):
or what not she's always asked and made sure that
I consider that I don't have to say yes and
to consider my mental health first.
Elise (18:32):
Holly would like to see other workplaces have a similar
understanding approach.
Holly (18:36):
I think that there needs to be, or at least
I would like to see, looking after you and your
well-being as not as 'risk management', because it's risk management
for the business. It's 'What do you need to do
to make sure that you can keep turning a profit
for our business?' That's why it's called risk management. It's
(18:57):
not risk management for you. It's risk management for the business.
Elise (19:00):
Plus, there's a need for employers and employees to understand more
about mental health in the workplace, beyond anxiety and depression.
Holly (19:07):
And if there was more knowledge around complex mental health,
and not just in the sense of what it is,
because I think I think if I went and asked someone,
'what do you know about bipolar?' They'll probably be able
to say a definition of bipolar with some degree of accuracy,
but then not necessarily understand how that can translate to
(19:27):
someone's life.
Elise (19:28):
Holly has been working with SANE and batyr to share
their story.
Holly (19:33):
I've really enjoyed it. It's, um it's been a way
that I can sort of give back in a way,
give that information that I might have wanted to have
back when I sort of started this whole thing.
Elise (19:46):
Holly would like listeners to understand that they can contribute
to compassionate workplace cultures.
Holly (19:52):
I think that there's no one experience of mental health
and that the best thing you can do is ask
what they need and support what they need and follow
through with that. Because because what one person needs is
can be very different for what another person needs. I
don't think that necessarily
(20:13):
knowing a diagnosis or what a person's diagnosis is actually
all that relevant,
um, if they want to disclose it to you great.
But I think creating a culture where understanding that people
have mental health issues, people have times in their lives
where they're struggling a little bit more, be they going
through a death in the family, be they be they
(20:36):
going through a divorce, whatever. There's going to be different
experiences that impact your ability to work, and if they
sort of approach it with a 'how can we help you?'
rather than a 'disclose exactly your diagnosis'. Because they're not
like your workplace isn't a psychologist, isn't a psychiatrist.
They don't know. They're not gonna be like, 'Oh, maybe
(20:56):
you should go take medication'. Like that's not their purview...
like they're here to help support you in the workplace.
And I think the best way to support someone in
the workplace is ask them. 'How can we do that?'
Elise (21:14):
On the Same Wavelength is a collaboration between the University
of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences and SANE, Australia's leading
national mental health organisation for people with complex mental health needs.
With the support of the Paul Ramsay Foundation,
t's hosted by me Elise Carrotte and edited by Chris Hatzis.
Special thanks to SANE Peer Ambassador Holly and Jess English
(21:36):
from SANE for their contributions to this episode. If you're
interested in learning more about SANE's lived experience initiatives, I've
included links in the show notes.
This podcast was recorded on the unceded lands of the
Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin nation, and we wish to pay
respects to elders past and present and extend our respects
to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander listeners.
(21:58):
If this podcast has brought up any challenging feelings for you,
please consider reaching out to SANE's free counselling support via
1 801 87263 or Lifeline via 13 11 14
Hello and welcome to On the Same Wavelength where we
explore how we can make a better world for people
living with complex mental health issues. I'm your host, Elise.
In this episode, we're focusing on workplaces, whether it's an
office setting, hospitality, healthcare , a trade or working from home,
most of us will spend a huge portion of our
(00:26):
life at work. Work can impact our mental health and
vice versa, our mental health can obviously impact our work, too.
Indeed, the National Stigma Report Card found that over 77%
of participants experienced some level of stigma or discrimination in
employment during the last year, and over 80% had stopped
themselves from discussing their mental health needs and experiences at
(00:48):
work because of stigma. So why is stigma so prolific
in workplace settings? And how can we make workplaces more
mentally healthy?
In this episode, we'll be meeting Peer Ambassador Holly, who
will talk about their lived experience in workplace settings. I
also chat with Jess English from SANE about some of
the work SANE is doing to support people with lived
(01:09):
experience in the workforce.
Just a quick note that this episode touches on topics
including bipolar disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, suicide and self-harm.
And like all our episodes, we talk about stigma and discrimination.
So please only listen today if it feels right for you.
Holly (01:27):
So my name is Holly. I'm from Sydney, but living in
Melbourne for the last five or so years.
Um, I'm a physiotherapist at a private practice in the
northern suburbs of Melbourne.
Elise (01:39):
Holly was a gymnast for many years. Their interests include
audio books, crochet and quad- ball. In addition to their
work as a physio, Holly is a mental health
advocate with organisations SANE and batyr.
I asked Holly about when they first noticed that something
wasn't right in terms of their mental health. But this
was a little trickier to pinpoint.
Holly (01:58):
Retrospectively, there was some stuff going on in primary school.
I was getting bullied quite badly, and I know that
my mum sent me to the school counsellor. I didn't
really know why at the time. In retrospect, that probably
means that she noticed something wasn't quite right. I think
when things really started to sort of
take off was around the ages of 14 to 15,
(02:20):
which which was sort of where my eating disorder started. Um,
my mood had sort of been going on since sort
of beginning of high school, but sort of when I
was about sort of that year eight, year nine was
when it was really starting to sort of get quite bad.
Elise (02:38):
Holly was trying their best to manage things themselves.
Holly (02:42):
I guess I was naturally, always very good at school.
Um and so even though my mental health was pretty terrible,
it wasn't really picked up because I was still performing
well at school. I was still managing to, um, meet
all these requirements. Um, when realistically, that was part of
(03:05):
the problem. In terms of I had quite a high
drive for perfectionism and therefore my studies were not going
to be as impacted.
Elise (03:16):
Heading into university, Holly was struggling with self harm and
suicidal ideation in their second or third year of uni
things were at a crisis point.
Holly (03:26):
I sort of got to the point where my the
psychologist at headspace was like, "Look,
I either call the ambulance for you now, or we
tell your parents", and that was a pretty big wake
up call.
Elise (03:36):
Holly accessed outpatient treatment and then an inpatient stay in hospital.
But recovery was not a linear process.
Holly (03:44):
The eating disorder really stuck around. Um, mood was crap, but, like,
I didn't really focus on the mood because I was
too involved with anorexia, I was too sort of focused
on that.
I went over to Europe and everything spiralled. I got back,
(04:06):
and within two weeks, I was in hospital undergoing treatment
for anorexia.
Elise (04:12):
Then, Holly experienced more challenges after moving from Sydney to Melbourne
to complete their postgraduate physio degree.
Holly (04:19):
So I've been diagnosed with bipolar, so bipolar II to
be more sort of exact. In 2020 I had what
we now recognise as a quite severe mixed episode.
Um, that landed me in hospital for three months total
(04:41):
across two admissions. And when, when you've got this mixed episode,
I sort of describe it as depression, but faster. And
you sort of have the symptoms of this hypermani sort
of state where
you've got sort of high high levels of arousal. You're
highly distressed... I was recklessly spending, um, sort of really agitated, really,
(05:04):
Like unable to sort of
sit down and stop and all of that, but at
the same time having that really deep depression where I
was really quite suicidal, self harming.
Elise (05:15):
Since that time, things have gotten better.
Holly (05:18):
Like I've still had to deal with my mental health, but
they've never got... I haven't had to have a hospital
admission or even consider one... we've had to do like
we had to do like one slight med change. But
it's overall been pretty okay.
Elise (05:35):
Holly has a supportive partner and friends who 'get it' and
check in with each other. They also have four key
players in their treatment team
a dietician, who all support their well being in different ways.
Holly (05:49):
In terms of the psychologist, generally working with the sort
of cognitive distortions. Um, I've also got borderline personality disorder,so I
work a lot with the sort of thought patterns and
all of that that comes with the disorder.
(06:13):
And also working on the sort of management of mood
management of any of the sort of leftover eating disorder
stuff going on.
I and then I see a dietician to sort of
keep in touch. Regarding sort of, 'Am I eating enough?',
(06:35):
and like my behaviours around food.
Elise (06:37):
But even though things are pretty good at the moment,
mental health is still something that Holly needs to navigate
in day to day life, including at work.
Holly works as a physiotherapist in a private practice. They
also work in research in the field of physiotherapy and disability.
Holly (06:59):
I'm generally more interested in sort of your neurological physiotherapy,
so I find the brain fascinating. So I've got a
number of patients with multiple sclerosis. A couple of that
have had strokes, Um, a couple of like one or
two with Parkinson's and sort of that neurological side of things.
(07:20):
I also see some paediatrics. Um, I was a gymnastics
coach for quite a few years as well, so I
really like working with kids.
Elise (07:27):
I asked Holly about navigating their lived experience in the workplace.
Holly (07:31):
It's a really sort of challenging area to sort of navigate because
you never you can never really predict what's going to
happen with how or how people are going to respond.
Elise (07:40):
Initially, they started in a part time role - which worked well.
Holly (07:44):
I knew I wanted the option to progress to full time.
Um and so I was really happy to hear that
That was an option going forward.
So it was really easy to sort of go with,
because without any explanation to start at a reduced reduced hours,
(08:04):
I didn't have to explain anything.
Elise (08:09):
Even though Holly works in a health care setting and
has been there for some time now, they still don't
feel comfortable discussing or disclosing their lived experience explicitly.
Holly (08:19):
Even though I'm in health care, there's still a stigma,
you still feel that when there's a patient that comes
in that's got some complex mental health, and they sort
of assume they're quite low functioning.
Um, and I don't like the words high functioning, low functioning.
I have a bit of an issue with that, but
(08:40):
I don't have a better word to describe it, but
they there are quite a lot of assumptions made and
sort of reservations, when you hear things like 'bipolar', 'schizophrenia'.
Like I think the workplaces have become quite used to
(09:00):
anxiety and depression and that sort of, um, sort of
your more common, um, mental illness. But then when you
get into sort of that more complex side of things
where you've got bipolar, you've got schizophrenia, you've got other
forms of psychosis, that sort of thing. Um, I don't
think workplaces are necessarily as responsive.
Elise (09:23):
Their workplace's attitude towards mental health has led Holly to
be wary of what might happen if they talk about
their mental health openly.
Holly (09:31):
I just don't know how people are going to react.
They might react really well, I don't know, but there's
always that fear of Well, if they know that I'm bipolar,
are they gonna suddenly start trading me differently? Are they
going to suddenly think that I'm unfit for for work
Elise (09:57):
In that environment it's standard practice to have goal setting
and risk management procedures, but these practices aren't always designed
with employees mental health in mind.
Holly (10:07):
I was a bit sort of, what do we mean by 'risk management'?
Like make sure there's not a trip hazard in the hallway? ...
but the example that they gave was looking at work
life balance and, um, risk of burnout and all of that.
And I think the words 'risk management' a really sort
of not appropriate for for that sort of setting.
(10:33):
And obviously for me, if I'm going to go by
that definition of risk management, acknowledging my mental health and
treatment and everything. Because without managing that I'm not fit
to work it it wouldn't happen.
Elise (10:47):
But how honest can you really be when you're in a
workplace culture that doesn't really support honest conversations about mental health?
Recovery is often not linear, and people's needs can change,
as can their ability to meet their goals or KPIs.
Holly (11:02):
So say I do disclose. Am I suddenly looked at differently?
Bipolar is really scary. We don't know much about bipolar.
We only really know what we've seen on the TV.
So therefore, now, this is a really scary situation to
be in, like, what do I need to know? When
realistically I'm fully able to work and many people with
(11:24):
bipolar are fully able to work, um, and live fairly
normal lives all in all.
And then if I don't disclose and later on, I
have a episode and need to take time off work,
which is, quite frankly, quite likely given the sort of
progression of bipolar it tends to... You have your episodes,
(11:47):
and that's probably going to happen, whether I'm on medication
or not. And if I don't disclose, that, would come
quite out of the blue.
Elise (12:00):
Plus, like we talked about in our episode about health care professionals.
There's also the question of whether health care workers should
disclose their mental health history to regulatory bodies. For Holly,
it's about weighing up the risks.
Holly (12:12):
And so there's that sort of extra layer of fear of...
Not that I think that would necessarily revoke my licence
to practise. But just that whole process of suddenly having
to jump through these hoops and get letters being like,
'of course, I'm OK to practise.' Um, it just would
just be a very stressful process.
Elise (12:31):
But here's the thing. Having lived experience can absolutely be
a strength in the workplace.
Holly (12:38):
I've definitely found that my experience with mental health has
actually improved my practice.
I also get given all the patients that come in that
sort of are under the NDIS as a psychosocial disability because
the doctor knows that I'm going to understand that a whole
lot more.
I think that in the medical profession they don't necessarily
(13:02):
realise that lived experience is a strength. And that you
are a clinician and you should never have a like
experience in your life? Um, when realistically as a physio,
I've broken two legs. I've dislocated a shoulder. hat is
lived experience of injury. Why is mental health any different?
Elise (13:28):
When making this episode I was thinking about how workplaces
can better support people with complex mental health needs, but
also the value of having people with lived experience in
the workplace.
You would have heard of SANE before. They're Australia's leading
organisation for people with complex mental health needs and one
of the collaborators on this podcast. Here's Jessica English, who
(13:50):
at the time of recording was SANE's Head of Lived Experience.
Jess (13:53):
So I work across the organisation to ensure that people
with lived experience and their friends, families and carers are
involved in the services and programs and decisions that affect them.
So that includes working with our programs such as our
Peer Ambassador programme and our community guides and our peer
workers to be able to ensure that our services are
delivered and designed by people with a lived experience.
(14:13):
I'm also a person with lived experience and it's something
that's really important to me. So I'm really proud to
work for an organisation where lived experience is at the
heart of everything that we do.
Elise (14:22):
But not all organisations have a culture that encourages people
to talk about lived experience, especially in areas where mental health,
literacy or understanding is low and this can have real
impact in the workplace.
Jess (14:34):
Certainly what we hear from talking to people with complex
mental health concerns and their friends, families and carers is
that stigma and discrimination can be a really serious barrier
to supporting someone to either stay in employment or to
re access employment after they might have had periods of
time off work.
And we certainly hear that for a lot of people
who may have experienced complex mental health concerns for an
(14:54):
ongoing period of time, it might not just be one
workplace where they've had this experience, it might be a
cumulative experience as well that can lead to some hesitation
in talking about or seeking support in the workforce for
your mental health.
Elise (15:08):
SANE has a Peer Ambassador programme - that is a group
of people who work with SANE. They use their stories
to raise awareness, reduce stigma and provide hope. Many have
spoken in workplaces.
Jess (15:19):
Programmes like the Peer Ambassador programme are so important in
breaking down those barriers so that those with complex mental
health concerns can have equitable workplaces that are safe.
Elise (15:29):
Everyone has a role in making workplaces more mentally healthy.
Jess feels that things are trending in the right direction.
Jess (15:36):
There is a lot of evidence of change that's happening
in workplaces towards a more psychologically safe environment. And some
ways that workplaces can support staff with lived experience includes
things like improving the mental health, literacy and understandings of
mental health in the workplace.
A lot of workplaces are starting to invest in mentally
healthy workplace initiatives that really support and encourage people to
(15:58):
take proactive steps towards well being. And all of those
things are really important for staff with lived experience, but
also more broadly for the whole organisation.
Workplaces that also embed flexible practices also can be really
supportive f or those who have lived experience. And I think
it just more generally,e very person from time to time
will need flexibility in their work and practice. And that's
(16:18):
particularly important for those who might be living with complex
mental health concerns or caring commitments.
Elise (16:23):
Reasonable adjustments might involve taking time off for appointments or commitments,
changing working hours and so on. It's really about meeting
people where they're at. Jess also told me about a
new initiative at SANE, a Peer Guide programme,
which is building on SANE's history of lived experience based
programmes
Jess (16:41):
The program aims to provide a pathway to peer support for
people who might be considering a career in peer support
or those who may have been unemployed or underemployed as
a result of the life changing impacts of mental health concerns.
Elise (16:54):
Peer support is about the mutual connection and conversations that
happen between people who have a shared experience. In this case,
it's about sharing parts of a journey with intention to
connect with others and build supportive relationships.
Jess (17:08):
We're hoping to give participants the opportunity to access training,
peer mentoring and practical experience in peer support that could
help them to lead to employment, education or community participation.
Elise (17:19):
Programmes like this can hopefully help participants recovery, build social
connection and help them achieve their goals.
Holly told me about a positive experience with workplace disclosure
in the past. This is in the context of their
research job.
Holly (17:38):
I told my supervisor that 'Hey, look, we've got a
planned hospital admission coming up just giving you a heads up.
I'm not gonna be able to, um I'm not going
to be able to be in the office.'
And, um, she was really supportive.
Elise (17:54):
They've developed a really trusting relationship where Holly is able
to work flexibly and aligned with their mental health needs.
Holly (18:01):
That day, like she noticed that I was pretty anxious
and on edge. And once we had our meeting in
the morning, she was like, 'Look, if you at any
point in time, you need to go home and work
from home, that's absolutely fine.'
So she had picked that up, and ever since, she's
been really supportive. And when she's asked about increasing hours
(18:23):
or what not she's always asked and made sure that
I consider that I don't have to say yes and
to consider my mental health first.
Elise (18:32):
Holly would like to see other workplaces have a similar
understanding approach.
Holly (18:36):
I think that there needs to be, or at least
I would like to see, looking after you and your
well-being as not as 'risk management', because it's risk management
for the business. It's 'What do you need to do
to make sure that you can keep turning a profit
for our business?' That's why it's called risk management. It's
(18:57):
not risk management for you. It's risk management for the business.
Elise (19:00):
Plus, there's a need for employers and employees to understand more
about mental health in the workplace, beyond anxiety and depression.
Holly (19:07):
And if there was more knowledge around complex mental health,
and not just in the sense of what it is,
because I think I think if I went and asked someone,
'what do you know about bipolar?' They'll probably be able
to say a definition of bipolar with some degree of accuracy,
but then not necessarily understand how that can translate to
(19:27):
someone's life.
Elise (19:28):
Holly has been working with SANE and batyr to share
their story.
Holly (19:33):
I've really enjoyed it. It's, um it's been a way
that I can sort of give back in a way,
give that information that I might have wanted to have
back when I sort of started this whole thing.
Elise (19:46):
Holly would like listeners to understand that they can contribute
to compassionate workplace cultures.
Holly (19:52):
I think that there's no one experience of mental health
and that the best thing you can do is ask
what they need and support what they need and follow
through with that. Because because what one person needs is
can be very different for what another person needs. I
don't think that necessarily
(20:13):
knowing a diagnosis or what a person's diagnosis is actually
all that relevant,
um, if they want to disclose it to you great.
But I think creating a culture where understanding that people
have mental health issues, people have times in their lives
where they're struggling a little bit more, be they going
through a death in the family, be they be they
(20:36):
going through a divorce, whatever. There's going to be different
experiences that impact your ability to work, and if they
sort of approach it with a 'how can we help you?'
rather than a 'disclose exactly your diagnosis'. Because they're not
like your workplace isn't a psychologist, isn't a psychiatrist.
They don't know. They're not gonna be like, 'Oh, maybe
(20:56):
you should go take medication'. Like that's not their purview...
like they're here to help support you in the workplace.
And I think the best way to support someone in
the workplace is ask them. 'How can we do that?'
Elise (21:14):
On the Same Wavelength is a collaboration between the University
of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences and SANE, Australia's leading
national mental health organisation for people with complex mental health needs.
With the support of the Paul Ramsay Foundation,
t's hosted by me Elise Carrotte and edited by Chris Hatzis.
Special thanks to SANE Peer Ambassador Holly and Jess English
(21:36):
from SANE for their contributions to this episode. If you're
interested in learning more about SANE's lived experience initiatives, I've
included links in the show notes.
This podcast was recorded on the unceded lands of the
Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin nation, and we wish to pay
respects to elders past and present and extend our respects
to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander listeners.
(21:58):
If this podcast has brought up any challenging feelings for you,
please consider reaching out to SANE's free counselling support via
1 801 87263 or Lifeline via 13 11 14
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