November 12, 2023 • 49 mins
There is a lot of stigma attached to depression and anxiety amongst aussie men, despite 1 in 5 battling these illnesses in their lifetime. In this episode, Ash talks through his mental health journey - starting from adjusting to life as a new dad, realising he had a problem, seeking professional help and maintaining his health.
A huge thanks to Ash for agreeing to share his story - we hope that it helps anyone out there who is also dealing with their own mental health journey.
If you're wanting to reach out for help, please speak to these fantastic organisations:
- Lifeline. Call: 13 11 14 Available 24/7
- Suicide Call Back Service. Call: 1300 659 467 Available 24/7
- Beyond Blue. Call: 1300 22 4636 Available 24/7
Ash and Matt will be joining thousands of runners at More Than A Run to help raise funds for Movember. You're able to challenge yourself in a 60km, 30km, or 10km distance that will take place on November 25. Sign up here!
Also, massive thanks to Lululemon for supporting us and the pod.
Follow @twodotingdads on Instagram here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to two Dotting Dads. I'm Mattie Jay and
I'm As. This is a podcast that is all about parenting.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's the good, the bad, and the relatable.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And as we always say, if you've come here hoping
to find any kind of advice, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
None not from maybe today.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I mean we have to say it, but deep
down we.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Know that we can't use another lawsuit.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Hey, this is a bonus episode. It is yes, which
is very exciting. We do want to say a big
shout out to Lulu Lemon, yep, friend of the show.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And this month is also November, Matthew.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
One of my favorite months of the year, Ash absolutely
where it's shedding a light on mental health, both mental
and physical, and we are all for that. And if
you did want to gear up for November, there has
never been a bit of collaboration between lou Lemon and
the charity. You can buy November specific appara, both men's
and women's, and five dollars from every sale will be donated.
(01:14):
You can look at our socials. Ash and I both
wearing the November from Them Lululemon T shirts.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Of course they're very comfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Although I have to say people may be confused not
being able to identify who was Ash who was Matt
because we both have mustaches. Yes, I may say this
might come across as arrogant. They're on parte. Ash is
wearing the hat. I am wearing no hat.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, I am wearing the hat.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So normally this podcast is all about us just being
idiots and parents. That's it, and we only ever wanted
to just be a bit of comedic relief. But this
episode is going to be a little bit different. Off
the back of November where we are hearing men's Health,
we thought it was a great opportunity where we can
talk about a mental health health journeys. Yes, and I
(02:01):
think one of the biggest surprises with you Ash, and
we've only known each other. It's not being that long
year November, not even twelve months, I would say twelve months,
but round up hanging out with you, you seem like
someone who.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Is extrata together. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, But when I first found out that mental health
was something that you struggled with, I was quite surprised.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Hmmm, and so thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I'm keen to know when did you first realize that
your own mental health was something that you needed help with.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Uh for me, Like before having kids, I always joke
about and that's the thing as well. I hide a
lot behind humor and one line stupid jokes that I
whip out because.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
You've always I'm assuming you've always been the funny guy.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I think like my dad's very similar to me
as well. Like real, I don't know, I just had
to be the funny guy, class clown sort of thing. Yeah,
I definitely have had to always been like that, and
I always joke about that. I don't remember what I
was like before having kids, because I legitimately don't really remember,
just because I mean, they just take up so much
of your life. So like before I kind of just
(03:11):
thought I was a normal guy. Like I never really
thought anything of the head noise that I would have
had or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Were there any moments, this is before kids, where you thought,
hang on a second, you know, this doesn't feel quite right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
When I was a teenager, there was a couple of
instances where I did think that, Like I know, I
just you know, might have felt a little bit sad
and didn't know why. And then I just sort of
put it down to nothing really, And I mean as teenager,
you sort of get on with it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You're still kind of regulating your emotions. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, and it wasn't I mean, the mental health conversation
wasn't so prominent. Now it's so it's really prominent, which
is great, so much better because yeah, like I think
maybe then maybe I would have I don't know, maybe
I would have thought something's not right if I don't know,
and it was such a thing, But I didn't really
know it was such a thing till after.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Having Yeah, I don't think going through high.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
School the last thing I'm thinking about totally. I don't
think it about chicks.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I don't think I could say there was anyone that
I knew who had depression. It wasn't really a word that.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was that you really knew that you would have known.
I mean that's part of the problem, right, it's the stigma.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
So yeah, before kids, I just thought I was a
normal guy and just going along my normal life. I think,
like as maybe closer to when I was getting married,
I had a few moments where I was like maybe
a little bit maybe a little bit, yeah, a little
bit sad boy, But I just again, I just thought
that was who I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Was when you found yourself in those moments where you
were sad or upset. Was it off the back of
anything that had happened. Was there a trigger for that
or was it just waking up one day and feeling
not that I can recall.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, I felt like sometimes if I was missing out
on something, then maybe I was a little bit more
down in the dumps. But I just thought it was
normal thought that I never thought really anything of it.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So then when you had Oscar and the situation you
found yourself in that moment with your mental health, was
that more severe than what you'd experienced previously.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, so like really started when having Oscar is such
like a big change in your life. Right for everyone,
it's obviously good. You know, you've made the decision to
have a child, and well, I'm very excited as you do.
But like, it's such a big impact on your life.
And I always say to people that are expecting their
first kid, like, you can never be prepared. No matter
(05:34):
how prepared you think you are, you're not. You just
don't know what you're going to get totally. There's so
many different variables, but.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Every kid is is wildly different. I look at Marley,
I look at Lola and they had just worlds apart.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Oh yeah, and like the first you know, the first
six twelve months was completely different too. So I think
like when we had Oscar, even from the delivery suite
where things didn't really go to plan. It was sort
of he was such a grumpy, grouchy baby.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
If anyone who doesn't know, we've spoken about before, but
it was a sea section.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It was ended up being an emergency sea section after
like twenty four hours of labor. I think, like now
I look back where actually some of the mental stuff
sort to shine through was even in the even in
the recovery suites when we're you know, a couple of
days in the hospital and me trying to change oscars,
n happy and not being happy with my performance. Like
(06:29):
I was like, holy shit, Like that's where like the
underlending standards, Like I expected myself to be able to
calm that baby and be able to you know, change
that baby like immediately, even though I was like, hand,
that's like my first fucking day on the job, but
I didn't think anything of it. Then I just would
get frustrated, so frustrated like immediately, and then yeah, we
(06:50):
sort of you know, we packed up, went home, did
that forty k and hour home because you're like just
thing in the back of the car as every dad
would do, where you just like so fragile, am I
strapped in the car correctly, all that sort of stuff.
And then we got home, and yeah, he was quite
a cranky baby. He was really uncomfortable. We sort of
(07:12):
a little bit later found out that he had silent
reflux and he had dairy intolerance.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Which is so tough.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, so and for anyone who don't really know, he
would be like asleep for forty minutes the first sleep window,
and then obviously he would be burning in his esophacus,
and like we didn't know any of that, and like
you know, like.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Like I said, isn't he loving me? Why doesn't he
love me?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But like he wouldn't sleep, And then it was caused
me and April blaming each other for why he can't
sleep and all that sort of shit, and like, you know,
as two people in the household, three people in the
household now just tied all the time, it was really
taking a toll on April, who's got a feed We're
not knowing what's wrong. And then I go back to work,
(07:58):
and I think, did you have off? Initially I had
two weeks off.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Oh that was it?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And then I was.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Did you have matt leeb for yourself?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Is that no I had? I can't quite recall.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, that's quick.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It was only two weeks. And then I went back
to work for two weeks. And during those two weeks
it was really really tough coming home to see my
shell of a wife that I had, because this kid
had absolutely taken it all day and it was like
really taking its toll. On April, and after two weeks,
I've said to my work, I'm going to have to
(08:33):
take more time off to try and help support. And
again we still didn't know that Oscar had silent reflux
and a dairy intolerance.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
You have little brief moments, because Lola was similar where
she was just didn't sleep, didn't eat, and you have
little moments where you're like, oh, this is nice, she
just gave me a smile, and this is yeah, I
guess that little like spark that I was looking for
when I was thinking about becoming a new parent. But
then bulk of it is just screams, screams.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, I recall taking a photo of me and Oscar
when he was so young, and I think a captions
are in between screams, and people were like, holy shit,
that hit me hard because they're like, that's so true.
Those moments in between you got to try and find
but we weren't finding any, and like it was so
early days that like, yeah, I've said and thankfully the
(09:25):
job I had at the time, they were like, yeah,
take as much time as you need, which is really great.
They sort of understood that was.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It a case. And I guess there is this expectation
of like, all throughout pregnancy, everyone's just like, this is
going to be the most amazing moment of your life
and build it up year totally. Like the bar is
of expectation is so incredibly high, and then when it
doesn't match that, all of a sudden, you're like, well,
I'm failing as a family.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That's kind of what I felt like, Yeah, And it
also felt like people were always like asking me, oh,
how's the sleep. Just shut the fuck up and stop
asking me that fucking question because it's obviously not good.
Look eggs on my eyes. I'm off work again. Oscar
was just absolutely draining us to the point where like
I resented him, which sucks for him. And that's as
(10:11):
hard as it is for people to hear that I
fucking hated him. Look, we build a bridge, thankfully, but.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Like I guess it's like for anyone listening, he maybe
doesn't have kids. It is a really interesting situation to
be in where like, at its core, obviously love your child.
Yeah you know, it's almost like I love that will
never be broken. But at the same time, it's this
juxtaposition where this child that you love like unconditionally is
(10:39):
also the cause of so many problems, so many problems,
and it's really really strange, and nothing eats you up
more than those moments of frustration that are directed towards
your baby.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Oh yeah, because then you feel guilty about it afterwards
because it's like, I don't know anyway. So, like it
was just getting really, really really bad, to the point
where it was really affecting April's mental health. She was,
you know, leaving the house and not coming back, and
we were having to seek help because she was depressed,
(11:11):
she hated everything. She was obviously suffering from depression. So
my first initial thought there is to make sure she
has help and we did that. We did what we
needed to do, went saw the GP, and the GP
said it was really really bad and recommending us this
place called Sin John of God, which was out at Burwood,
which April's in denial about that doesn't want to do it.
(11:34):
They have a really great mother and child program out there.
And it was like, do we need to do that?
Is it that bad? And we tried to help ourselves
before we had to get to that point. I remember
there was this one day Abe went for a physio appointment,
like a postpart of physio appointment, and she just didn't
come back, and I was like, what the Fuck's going
on here? She didn't come back, and then eventually she
(11:56):
did and she said I just drove around the block,
not wanting to come in because I just hated the situation. Wow,
which was real tough, And at that point, I've made
the call that we've got to go.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
When we rang and said you know we're coming in,
they said, okay, cool, no worries. We went in and
we checked in like two days later to this mental hospital.
They were really great and it was a beautiful facility
and stuff, but essentially I had to drop my wife
and kid off there left him for eight weeks, which
I was allowed to visit. I was allowed to stay.
They were really good. It was really tough. Like I said, like,
they had great facilities, and I've got this really good
(12:30):
mother and child program which the child goes in with
you when you first get there, they obviously know that
you're fucking exhausted. Essentially, the baby sleeps in the nursery.
I can't remember how old he was at this point,
like five or six weeks. He might have been a
little bit older. But they do all this group stuff
and they see psychologists and try and they give them
(12:53):
the tools to really work with it, which is really
really great. And got to see that.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So at this point, how was your mental health? Because
April had been diagnosed and she was seeking help.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
At this point, I had to completely put myself to
the side. I was like, it is not about me,
it's about them. It was great for me to get
some rest as well, to sort of start to see
things in a bit more light. But yeah, I was
going back and forth for that whole time. Yeah, I
was sort of got closer to the end of that time,
and I remember I had a conversation with my sister,
(13:25):
and she was like, oh, it's all you know, great
that she's getting better. She was just like, what about you?
And I was like, I'd never really and like we
spoke about the other day, I was like, you know,
it's kind of like when you're in an aeroplane and
the oxygen mask dropped down, you got to put yourself
on before you start to help others. And she was like,
do you not ever think about that?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And I was kind of like shit, and it sort
of planted a seed for me. I remember there was
like a couple of weeks to go, and they were like, look,
we're going to allow April to have like a home visit.
Can't come home for the night. I was going to
come home too, just for the night and see how
it goes. It went pretty well, Like it was a
little bit rocky because obviously know when it's like even now,
when your kids sleep in a different environment, it's it's
(14:03):
never great, so you know, but it was really good
to have them home and eventually they discharged her and
came home and we were in a much better play.
Best thing we ever did, like now I look back,
the best thing we ever did was take up on
that program and thankfully we were covered under insurances and
stuff like that, which I know that some people don't
have that don't have that same thing, and look, there
(14:24):
should be more of it and more accessible for families.
But yeah, like they came home and you know, we
sort of were better equipped and had more knowledge, and
like it wasn't perfect. We were still going through the
Now April, we have to look at Okay, she can't
eat dairy, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Of course because then the milk that she's producing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah. Yeah, so then we had to manage the silent
reflux and stuff. So there were still its challenges, but
it was you know, chalk and cheese so much better
because we're you know, well and more equipped, but.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
We're aware of yeah issues, and April.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Was on the man really well, like she was, you know,
starting to be more positive and starting to find She
definitely said that she started to love him much more
and have those moments and I wasn't having them yet,
which you know, I accepted because they you know, they
were living together in a facility.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, it's so hard, even though deep down you love
your child to express that love when you're completely overrun
with that frustration, the relationship with Marley, it was very instant.
She was a dream child. Yeah, she slept anywhere, she ate,
she fed beautifully. Yeah, fucking life was easy. And then
(15:36):
with Lola, that affection was kind of like masked.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, it was masked by the frustration of why aren't
you like that one?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, totally, Like I was happy that everyone was home
and happy that you know, we're on the end, and
I think, like it wasn't obvious to me, but it
was obvious to April that I was getting worse. She
just said to me that you're different, said something about
you is different. She said, you're frustrated, You're angry. I
(16:04):
can see it. I can see it in your eyes
that you're just not something's not rare and for me,
and like, deep down for me, I was essentially without
me knowing, planning my escape from the situation. Still even
what do you mean by that? I just didn't want
to be there anymore. I just there was conversations that
I had had with April saying that I don't love
(16:26):
this kid, and it was like, that's to say it now.
It is heartbreaking, but it was like that was the
situation that I didn't want to be there anymore. Didn't
mean self harm. It just means I just wanted to
move on from this. And when they were in a position,
my honest thoughts at the time were, once they're in
a position where they're comfortable, I'm going to leave, which
(16:48):
now it fucking breaks my heart to say that, but
that was the god honest truth. And I remember April
saying to me, you know we're getting better, you're getting worse.
And she kept saying that to me, she said, you
need to sort this out.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
At that point, did you agree with her? Were you
thinking maybe I could have something wrong with my mental health?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, when she was blunt to me and said that,
you know, we need to have a look at this.
Because you helped us, we need to help you. And like,
thankfully we had built like a bit of a rapport
with our GP over all of everything that happened with April.
And as soon as I booked that appointment and sat
in her office, she knew straight away and I was
(17:28):
just a fucking mess, and she was just like, holy shito.
She was just like, you guys have forgotten. You guys
get forgotten so much because it is all about mum
and the baby, as it should be because she's providing life,
she's nurturing, she's you know, feeding. She's like I always
(17:48):
say that that first big moment, you know distances there
are newborn is that you could be any old blob,
but you won't be mum, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But it's also a teamwork between mom and dad, and
obviously there is a big difference between she's.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
The team captain totally. But yeah, I remember when I, like,
I said, I saw the GP and she was just like,
you know, we did all the testing to like how
I'm actually feeling, and she was like, we need to
sort this out.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So what's the steps from that moment?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
For the steps from that moment is you come up
with a mental health plan with your GP, which is
really important, just to sit down and talk about, you know,
what the plan is, what resources are available, and how
you want to tackle it, and what you're comfortable with
as well, which you know, she was saying to me,
I get a lot more women than men, and she
(18:38):
was very honest about that, and she was like, but
she she said, I would love to see more men
because so many couple sit in here and I can
see it that maybe I don't know. Something is not
right and she was like, you're at a point where
you've made the decision to be here, which is the
best decision you've made? And it was. And we went
from there in terms of referrals to who would benefit
(18:59):
me the most in the area? Is there some resources online?
How far did I was? I willing to go to
make myself feel better? Made it really easy, So you know,
I made the decision at that point to see someone professionally,
and April was like, whatever it costs, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Is that a therapist?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, so whatever it costs, whatever it takes so that
we can get you back on track. And it was
fucking scary, dude. It was nerve wracking. And then also
there was that feeling is like what the heck is
wrong with me? So I had that initial GP appointment
and then it was leading into COVID. It was becoming
really hard to see someone.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Do you remember what it was like going to your
very first therapy session?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah? Look, I didn't know what to expect to start
off with. I was like, I don't know what's going
to happen, but it was actually real low key and
was like got an opportunity to sort of just like
sit with someone who didn't know me but knew the
questions to ask and had the tools they could provide
me the tools to try and help. But I remember,
(20:06):
in the leading up to that first appointment, I was
still thankful I had that initial consultation with my GP,
but then I was like in waiting to see someone.
And I remember we went for this family walk to
the shopping center at the end of the street was
and this was like a real like one of those moments,
It's like I need to really fucking help myself here.
I remember we went into Kohle's to do some light shopping.
(20:28):
Oscar's kicked off in the pram. But then as Oscar's
kicked off in the pram, this young group of kids
came in. They were like a Japanese soccer team on
tour and they were just kids. They were like eight
nine tent but they were crazy. No one was in
control of these kids, and I was like, I need
to get a fuck away from these kids because my
anxiety was through the fucking roof. And I was like, oh,
(20:52):
we'll just go down the other end, no worries. We
need to get a couple of things went down the
other end, and I remember I came around the corner
to go to the deli member and they came around
the corner as well, and I was like trying to
get away, and as I went to get away, these
two girls for charity stopped me to ask me for money,
and it just like all overwhelming, had a full panic attack. Anyway,
(21:16):
April ended up finding me hunched over you know, the
nut mix things, and I was literally heavily breathed. I'd
like blacked out, like a full panic attack that had
never happened to me before. And April was like, come on,
let's get the fuck out of here. And at that moment,
I was like, oh my god, like what is happening
to me? Like I was falling to pieces.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
These two girls are like, so you won't donate.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
April was just like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like this is
And having that conversation with my therapist about that moment,
she was just like, you've just hit this peak anxiety
and she's like, to have an anxiety attack in public,
A lot of people have them, but she was like
that's like no, no, she said, a lot of people
have them, but like to call it, recount the whole thing,
(22:01):
and then you were like blacked out over you know,
and then sort of came to down a random aisle
like it's wild. But yeah, it was definitely a big
shining moment for me that I was like, fuck, something's
not right. Yeah, and we're you know, that was how
many years ago? Now what you were in? That was
like four years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And at this point you've spoken about the fact that
you've got this really great mother's group. The dads in
that group, you guys still hang out now, you guys
were BALI recently together? Were you still spending time together?
Or had you guys found that mother's group?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
We had found it, but it was it was very
early days because we had found it, and then April
wasn't there for eight weeks. And look, they know, they
know now what was going on, and only a select
few people knew now what was going on? I had
three months off work. I remember what.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
About then your close group of mates.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, there was a couple that knew what was happening?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Could they in the lead up to that moment? Obviously,
April she knows that something's not quite right. Whenever your
mates saying ah, something's a bit off.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
No, I hit it a lot. I think it came
as a shock. I remember a friend of mine drove
past me out the front of the therapy place and
I was coming out it's right, and he rang me
and he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, oh,
like yeah, just started seeing someone and I was seeing
someone like once a fortnight, and he was like shit
(23:28):
like he definitely opened his heart and his arms to
Me'd be like, if you need anything, let us know.
And you know, I slowly told more and more people
that things weren't okay, but I were telling people that
things were okay, so that they kind of knew that
it was okay if things were okay with them too.
I remember I one of my friends at the time
is still a really good friend, when I told him,
and then he got really inquisitive about the whole thing,
(23:50):
and he was like he was going through a bit
of a breakup at the time. He was just like
not feeling himself. And I was like, go and do it, mate.
It's honestly, like so relieving. And I remember I saw
him a few weeks later he said I did it,
and I was like, oh, how'd you go and he
was like, well, I booked it and then he said
I was going after work and he was like, I
just felt rushed and I felt unprepared. And I was like, oh, yeah,
(24:13):
he goes. I got there and then hed it just
all came out of me, and he was like, he goes,
I felt fucking great.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
He I couldn't believe how much emotion I had, like
pent up, yeah, and it just stockpiling and like he
only ever saw the therapist once, and he was like,
it did wonders because he was like, there's so many
things that I didn't think I could talk to anyone about,
but once I've spoken to them about it, felt like
I can talk to other people about it. And yeah,
(24:41):
like and a very strong believer that everyone should at
least go once in their life.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Do you think if any of your mates had reached out,
this is before you'd gone to the therapist for the
first time, and if they had said, Ash, something's not
quite right. Can we talk about it? Do you think
looking back, you would have or do you think you
still would have mastered it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think I would have opened up somewhat, but it
took me to go to therapy to really understand some
of my behaviors and some of my thought processes. And
that's the biggest thing. You really find out a lot
about yourself. I remember I sitting with my therapists and talking.
You know, I've got a different therapist now, just because
I sort of evolved a little bit. But the initial
(25:24):
therapist that we were talking about some behaviors, and it
was crazy that some of the behaviors that are common
in that, you know, the anxiety and depression and unrelenting standards,
some of the behaviors that I was doing that I
didn't even recognize, like what, for example, off the top
of my head, like you know, really incorporating like the
(25:45):
unrelenting standards thing into you know, who and why. I
was getting so frustrated, who at and why? And it
wasn't the situation. It was me that I was getting
so frustrated with. So like I told this story about
how I flu oscar up to see my parents at
their place for the very first time. I was so
organized to a tea that when something went wrong, I
(26:08):
was so fucking angry, But I didn't really realize who
I was angry at. I was angry at me, so
like for example, I'd organized everything and then we got
to the airport to get to the rental car and
realize the rental car place wasn't actually in the airport.
We had to get a shuttle. Set me off. I
was like a wrecking ball, mate, And it was like
(26:28):
just those little behaviors that it's like, hang on a minute,
like that's not that big of a deal. But it
was like, you know, recognizing that I wasn't getting angry,
I was you know, who I was angry at, or
why I was getting angry, or why I was feeling
the way I was feeling, or just like the behaviors
of doing things to escape the reality that you're in
(26:50):
instead of doing things for the joy of it, or
doing things for other you know, decent and positive reasons.
But yeah, like straight away learnt so much about myself.
I remember I had that's right. I had like a
meltdown at a bus stop once because I had misplaced
my wallet, which is not a big fucking deal real
in the scheme of things, but I was so angry
with myself. I smashed my phone up, fucking smashed a
(27:12):
bust shelter up, got on a bus and was like
just told the driver, and I'm like, I don't have
I don't have any money, I don't have anything. I'm
fucking getting on this bas like just like. And then
I remember getting home and being like wow, like just
like a fit of my own rate. But I was
just angry with me and it was so you know,
and like. And then I was like sort of feeling
(27:33):
that I didn't want to be around anymore. And I
was seeing a therapist. It was getting better, things were
getting better, which was great, but then I always had
those moments where I was like, I don't know, I
don't want to be around anymore. And it evolved I
stopped seeing I stopped seeing a therapist after a while.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And at this point, had you you'd already been diagnosed
with depression.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And anxiety and some unrelenting standards.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, and so were you medicated?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, so on top of therapy, I was medicated, which
I am still still medicated. My dosage isn't quite as
high as it used to be, but medicated daily, which
a lot of people are, to sort of keep my
you know, social anxiety and my depression sort of it
sort of levels you out, I think, and I really
felt the difference.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm going to be really naive here. But is it
a case of once you take that first pill, from
that moment on you notice a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Noah, nah, So you've got to like you definitely ease
into it. I remember I eased into it at a
certain dosage and it was like is it doing anything?
Not really, And then they sort of up it. But
then there's you know, they don't just be like, yeah,
let's just up it. You know, you've got to have
the process. Yeah, there's a process. And then coming off
it as well, there's like, you know, I've tried to
(28:51):
come off it before. It just didn't work. It's just
really bad, like anxiety. And after I felt like I
was getting better and things were getting so much better
at home, like Oscar was sort of turned a corner
and was loving and COVID did us a real big
soul because it gave me the opportunity to be at
home a lot with him, and I rebuilt that bond,
(29:12):
which was great, and like I missed that lockdown because
I got to rebuild that bond with Oscar. Now he's
talking back to me.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But no, that's obviously it's got its own challenges when
he's as he is now, but at that point back then,
when he you know, he was just like sliding along
the ground and really really cute and like doing those
things for the first time.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Like and they start to I always found that the
relationship with Lola, it improved drastically when she could just
give me a little bit back.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, it does, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Obviously, I'm not talking about like they kind of at
this point kind of in talk, but when they smile,
when they sit, when you walk in the room and
they recognize your face and give you a smile, or
they wake up in the morning you go into the
room and you just get that little reaction. You know.
I feel like I'm quite needy when I say that
as a parent, but those little things.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Keep you going.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Oh sure, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, and it keep going, specially even through like you'll
be having a real shit time with some sleep regression
or something and then they'll do something really cute and
you're like, hey, gay kind.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Of makes that thread.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
But yeah, like during COVID like really helped me build
that bond back with Oscar. But I was still was
the adamant that I didn't want any more kids. I
was like nah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
We know that running is such a powerful vehicle to
creating positive impact and at the end of this month
is more than a run powered by a little Lemon.
For the third year in a row.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
It's a community run that happens on the twenty fifth
of November. It's in support of November this year.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And since they started it was about two years ago,
they have raised over one point four to eight million dollars,
which is a huge effort, and they've had over four
thousand runners across Australia and New Zealand. ASH. No surprise here,
but we will be taking in the event. There is
an option in Sydney, there's one in Centennial Park or
one in Manly. We will do the Manly one. We'll
(31:06):
do the Manly one closer to you.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
A bit of local knowledge down there. So the options
Matt are ten, thirty and sixty kilometers. Just stick to
what we know.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Let's go very tempting, isn't it It is?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
However, we'll do the ten down in Manly as mentioned.
But if you want to get involved you can do
so online, which we will leave in the notes of
this episode the link sign up for the run this
year and join me and Matt struggle through even just
ten you be sick.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
We were running it decked that Lili Lemon and also
with mustaches on full display. Absolutely once again people being
confused between who was Matt who was Ash? You will
run with a hat on shore?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, yes, and we look forward to seeing you guys
down there or for a really, really, really good course.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Can I ask this with your medication when your therapist
said we're going to medicate you.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
X YGP, I really offered it up.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And what was your jerk reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
My knee jerk reaction is I don't want to be
some medicated freak. And that's just honesty in my head,
which is so wrong and so incorrect.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I don't know where that comes from, because I would
be the same.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think it's just stigma. Mate. You're just like you
don't want to be seen as a fruit loop, Like
let's be completely honest, Like you want to be seen
like you've got it together. Yeah, And I was so
embarrassed that I didn't want people to know that I
was medicated. But then it sort of got to a
point in you know, situation where I was like, fuck it,
what does it matter? No, one, I'll get a lot
of the same like response. It's like oh really and
(32:37):
that's about it. Yeah, that was it. But like I
do recall being off of it and being like, nah,
I can do this on my eye. It's such a
fucking man thing to think, no, you can't make you
can't make it. Give yourself an upper cart, chuck something
in your mouth and get on with it. But like
it was kind of like I don't need that. Shit
(32:59):
sounds like grandfather.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
The GPS must hear that all the time.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
They must be like, yeah, like breaking down that barrier
must be real. It must be a real, like breath
of fresh air when someone like me comes in and
it's just completely honest and like both both the therapists
that I've had have always said to me, like, you're
very very very open and honest about your situation, you know,
and that's helped me a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
So was it the case of from this moment on,
you're medicated, you're sing a therapist, everything is great, ash
is fixed.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
You trick yourself a lot. I find that I'm really
good at noticing when I've tricked myself, which seems to
be a lot trick myself that I'm okay when I'm not,
and you know what I mean, Like I think ever
since seeing a therapist, I was like, okay, well I'm
getting better, I'm getting better. I must be better. It
must be better. Now. I did stop seeing a therapist
(33:55):
for a while there and started to like come off
my medication and yeah, I don't know, I just felt
like it creeps back. It creeps back, like the head
noise creeps back in where I think for me, the
biggest thing was like my inner fight or flight would
be flight, Let's get the fuck out of here, which
sucks because I love my family very much, but it
(34:18):
was something else telling me that you need to get
yourself out of this situation, you don't need to be here.
But always I would be like I could never do that.
I could never let my family down like that. And
April was always really good at pointing it out, like mate,
you know. And there's been times where like I've woken
April up in the middle of the night where I've
(34:40):
woken up with anxiety and been like or even situations
where I've woken up saying that I don't want to
be here anymore, which is you know, She's been real
strong about that. And also she's had times where she
said to me, like, I'm sick of you telling me
you don't want to be here anymore sometimes and it's
not me. It's not me, And it is really hard
to maintain. And that's the thing, like people think the
(35:03):
hard part is I hate to break it too, people.
It's the hard part is not going to face your demons.
It's maintaining them. And some people, some people don't just
struggle even more with that because the maintenance part is
so hard. Like I seeing my therapist. I saw my
therapist the other day and she was like, she just
straight up to me and said, you've lost focus. She
(35:25):
could just heelp, you've lost focus. Why you want to
be better for your family, You've lost focus why you
want to be better for yourself. You need to find
the focus again. Otherwise, if it gets too far away,
you're slip into denial. Then you'll start to deny that
you've got a problem, which you do that all the
fucking time anyway, but it becomes more prominent and more
front focus that you don't have a problem, and then
(35:47):
all of a sudden you slip into serious depression and
anxiety and we all know what can happen there where
people take their own lives, which is absolutely tragic. But
when you suffer with it, and you you suffer in silence,
it must be way worse. There's been times where April's
like I don't know what's going to happen, like I'm
afraid to leave you alone, or look, it hasn't been
(36:10):
a lot of times, but it has been times, and
there's been times where like I reckon I think about
escape once a day in some capacity, whether it's me
reflecting on it or reflecting on what I would have done,
and you know how I would have escaped, or like
I don't mean like harm myself, I just mean like
get out, get away.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah. Is that because you think the environment with the
family and with your kids is such a trigger point
for Yeah, you having your mental health issues that by
removing yourself from that it'll make things better. Is that
why you want to escape? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I kind of thought like if I remove myself, I'd
be better. Like it's not really the case, is that
you know you can't. It's such a shit way to
think about, like you can run away from your problems
and people do, oh for sure, And look I would
regret that, and my my therapist and I talk about
that a lot, talk about that, like, if I'd have
done that, I would have made it would be the
(37:07):
worst thing I could have done. I would have been
separated from my on exile island, from my children, you
know what I mean. Which there's challenges now, but like
they're nowhere near as challenging as it was. I was
adamant that I didn't want to have a second child,
but now like I can't imagine my life without a
second child.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, I guess because having Oscar like that was you know,
it was a line in the sand where post childbirth,
that's when these problems started to really rear its head.
Were you thinking, Gosh, if I have a second child,
I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Do it again?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I think. Yeah. It was like I hated so much
of what he did to April, hated it, hated coming
home to see her, and she was a shell of
who the person that I used to know. And there
were times there that I just hated everybody. And then
when it came around too, like, look, we were in
(38:01):
a much better place, we had learned so much. We've
sort of had the conversation a lot of times about
a second kid, and I think when we decided to
do it, we were in a much better place. It
still had its dramas, and then you threw COVID on
top of that as well, which we had got COVID
six weeks into having Macie, and it was like the
fucking worst, you know, because then you're isolated on top
(38:23):
of that as well. But I think we had the
tools to manage it better, and you know, we were
much more able to have the conversations with each other
that we felt like we weren't allowed to have back then.
You know, like April'll been able to pull me up
and say you need to go. You need to even
just go and do something for yourself right now because
(38:45):
you're not the best version of you.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So you talk about maintenance being one of the hardest things. Yeah,
so what are the tools that you have in your
kind of arsenal that you rely on to make sure
that maintenance is still a priority.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Look, I try and make sure that I keep my
appointments with my therapists regularly, even when I feel like
I'm okay, even when it's not a trick, you know,
and it's like I don't know what I'm going to
talk about. I feel like it's still a must to
go and I never regret it, never regret going. It's
not the cheapest exercise, don't get me wrong, but like
(39:19):
it's worth every cent. That's one big thing where it's
like always go back. I think, Like for me, I
don't have like a lot of coping mechanisms that I
know of. Like, look, I'm quite a heavy drinker. But
when I first started to become a really heavy drinker,
it was to escape. But now I don't drink to escape.
I drink, you know, mainly for the social and the
(39:39):
fun aspect in that I do find myself sometimes down
in the dumps about it, but I can recognize it
pretty quickly. But like in terms of like coping, the
exercise has been a big one. Look at the moment,
because I've been crooked. Shit, it sucks, and I do recall,
like when we're in isolation a lot, running like really
(40:00):
was amazing for my mental health, That's right. I was
like I was doing like ten or fifteen k's a
day every day because it made me feel so good.
You know. I surf a lot as much as I can,
and I find like the high after that, you know,
it gets me through it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
But yeah, I've always said I've never been one to meditate.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I couldn't do that really either. I tried really hard.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I tried so hard everybody else who was doing it
would look at me and go, this is going to
change your life. Yeah, And I was like, I want
to tap into that so hard and then.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It's practice, right, And Abel and I would meditate together
a bit there to try encourage us to do it.
I found that what worked better for me was breathing
exercises like whim Half. And I've gotten slack again because sick, unmotivated.
It's hard to breathe when you can't breathe through your
nice But yeah, I found that after a while like
(40:55):
wim Hof, because I could concentrate on the breath better
than I could concentrate on the voice, you know what
I mean. I find I would drift off so much,
but it's practice. And like people who are really good
at meditation, they'll tell you I've practiced my ass off
to be here, which is fair. It wasn't something that
I overly used as a tool. I found the exercise
(41:16):
and running and that sort of stuff was much better
used to go to the gym a lot. I also
found friends were really good. It was really good to
have like friends that you could talk to about It
was really really important. And sometimes even helping friends as
well really help me. And that's what is also really important.
If someone never discounts someone saying that they're not feeling okay.
(41:37):
I found that like I could be like, what do
you mean? Because I would have I might not have
the answers.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Would you ask the same questions that the therapist.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Would No, Nah, because it's really important, and I step
into my office, it's really important not to provide a solution,
but just hit listen. Yeah, that was the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Because I guess one question that I think would be
really helpful is what advice would you give to somebody
else if their friend is in a similar situation where
they're reaching out and they're saying I'm not okay. How
is it best to manage those conversations? You think, knowing
what you know now.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Don't be expected to provide a solution. Like I said,
just listen sometimes and I've said it to April a
few times, I said, I don't want you to give
me a solution. Don't give me a fucking answer. I
just want you to listen, because as well intentioned as
the solution might be, it's not what I want from
you right now. So like if I've had friends that
(42:30):
have come to me and said I'm not okay, what
should I do? I always say CGP straight away, see
a professional is what you should do. But if you
don't want to do that, you don't want to go
through that, mate, I'll sit here for an hour while
you talk, and if you want me to provide any insight,
I will. But if you don't want me to, there's
(42:51):
no judgment from me whatsoever. I'll sit here with you
for as long as it takes. That's really powerful as well.
But like I always say, go and see GP. They're
not going to bite your head off. All they're going
to do is provide some tools. And whether you want
the I need heap to help because I feel like
I'm going to off myself or I want to escape
(43:11):
my reality or whatever it might be. You can go
as far as that. Or if it's like look, I
just sometimes I just need someone to talk to. They
can provide you someone or a helpline or some other tools.
There's so much stuff out there. Yeah, Like I always
try and push people to see you gp.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It's funny. Even I'm really fortunate in that I don't
suffer from depression, but.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
You know, of.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
We should, hey, but that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yes, that's what's true.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
But there are so many times as a parent, as
a husband where I am really frustrated. I have really
bad days, and my biggest coping mechanism is going for
a run. Laura can see the change in me almost
instantly as obvious as like, as I'm doing tasks around
the house, I'm heavy footed, getting a bit eggy. The
(44:06):
way in which I talk to Lawa and the kids,
Laura can tell that that's creeping up and straight away
she's like, get outside, yeah, get a change of scenery.
You know, whether it's a half an hour run, whatever
you do, just to like blow those co webs out
makes such a huge difference, it does.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And like even if you go for a walk, man,
Like there's been times where I've gone I don't want
to go for a run because I don't feel like
sweet masks off. I'll just go for a walk, man,
I'll chuck something in like I always as well try
and listen to people, people who create music, and some
of thetime you know in their backstory, like someone like
(44:42):
post Malone or someone like Gang of Views and they've
got a backstory something like that. I'll always try to
do to give me some perspective or to make me
feel like where I'm at that other people are in
the same situation, and that does help me through, even
if it's just on a walk or something like that,
because we all know that can be fucking sometimes, but
(45:03):
just you know, get out in it. You know, it's
just one of many ways that you can help yourself.
Everyone's got their own their own thing that makes them happy,
right own hobbies. And I've noticed it even going for
escape now, like just changes just changes how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, And I think that's the biggest surprise, is that
you look at someone at face value. And the last
thing I ever would have imagined is that you would
have this story with your mental health challenges. Like I
would have said that you are someone that would be
so far from any type of depression social anxiety because
you are someone who is able to hide that quite well.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I hide behind a few things. I hide behind
this mustache a lot. I would refuse to. I find
it's sort of something that sits in front of my
face that's sort of a bit like a shield. I
wear a hat a lot because you know, I'm very
open about the hat. I feel like it helps me
with my anxiety. I will try and wear it in
every situation. But yeah, I do hide behind the humor
(46:04):
a lot. I like to take the piece out of everything,
even myself, a lot, because I feel like it helps
me through.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Definitely, I think it doesn't matter who the individual is
and their circumstances. I think mental health is something that
anyone can.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Struggle can struggle with it, whether it's mineor or major.
But I feel like it's really important.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
But also I think it's I think one of the
greatest things about your story is that it's something that
you are now in control of.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, totally. Like I said, the best thing I ever
did was seek help or find my voice about it,
because you start to find out so much about yourself.
And I think, like I said, everyone everyone should go
and see someone. Whether you don't think you should or not,
or whether you think you're completely fine or not, there's
no harm in trying to find a bit more about yourself.
(46:56):
Because it could help you down the track.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Definitely, Ash, I want to say thank you for being
really vulnerable. I know it sounds like a weird thing
to say at the end of this, but I can
only appreciate how hard it would be as a topic
to unpack, especially because it's so far from what we
normally talk about.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, look for me, I'm happy to do it, and
I'm always been very transparent. And if you know one
person listening to this can find some relatability, or find
some comfort or find encouraged voice, then I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
And look, if you're listening in any of the topics,
have struck a call with you and you think I
do want to reach out. Obviously, as Ash said, there
is the GP, but some other really amazing organizations out
there are Lifeline, there is suicide Callback service and also
Beyond Blue support service as well. The contact details for
each of those will put into the show notes, but
(47:52):
also there's a great page on the November website which
lists out all these organizations and the contact details. So
please don't be shy to reach out. And I will
say as well that if there is anyone who you
think has immediate danger with their own life obviously called
Triple zero. Sure but ash, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Thank you, and look, if you don't want to get
in touch with any of them, just get in touch
with me if you want. I'm happy to sit and listen,
so dm us if you like.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Before we go, we do just want to give one
last thanks to today's sponsor, Lululemon. They are global technical,
athletic atpower brands. They are forty four stores across Australia
and New Zealand, creating transformational products and experiences for both men.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And women, and they focus on building meaningful connections, unlocking
greater possibilities and well being for all. For more information,
visit lululemon dot com or heading to one of these stores.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Thanks Lululemon. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians
of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, see
and community.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land
Welcome back to two Dotting Dads. I'm Mattie Jay and
I'm As. This is a podcast that is all about parenting.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's the good, the bad, and the relatable.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And as we always say, if you've come here hoping
to find any kind of advice, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
None not from maybe today.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, I mean we have to say it, but deep
down we.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Know that we can't use another lawsuit.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Hey, this is a bonus episode. It is yes, which
is very exciting. We do want to say a big
shout out to Lulu Lemon, yep, friend of the show.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And this month is also November, Matthew.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
One of my favorite months of the year, Ash absolutely
where it's shedding a light on mental health, both mental
and physical, and we are all for that. And if
you did want to gear up for November, there has
never been a bit of collaboration between lou Lemon and
the charity. You can buy November specific appara, both men's
and women's, and five dollars from every sale will be donated.
(01:14):
You can look at our socials. Ash and I both
wearing the November from Them Lululemon T shirts.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Of course they're very comfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Although I have to say people may be confused not
being able to identify who was Ash who was Matt
because we both have mustaches. Yes, I may say this
might come across as arrogant. They're on parte. Ash is
wearing the hat. I am wearing no hat.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, I am wearing the hat.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So normally this podcast is all about us just being
idiots and parents. That's it, and we only ever wanted
to just be a bit of comedic relief. But this
episode is going to be a little bit different. Off
the back of November where we are hearing men's Health,
we thought it was a great opportunity where we can
talk about a mental health health journeys. Yes, and I
(02:01):
think one of the biggest surprises with you Ash, and
we've only known each other. It's not being that long
year November, not even twelve months, I would say twelve months,
but round up hanging out with you, you seem like
someone who.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Is extrata together. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, But when I first found out that mental health
was something that you struggled with, I was quite surprised.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Hmmm, and so thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I'm keen to know when did you first realize that
your own mental health was something that you needed help with.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Uh for me, Like before having kids, I always joke
about and that's the thing as well. I hide a
lot behind humor and one line stupid jokes that I
whip out because.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
You've always I'm assuming you've always been the funny guy.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I think like my dad's very similar to me
as well. Like real, I don't know, I just had
to be the funny guy, class clown sort of thing. Yeah,
I definitely have had to always been like that, and
I always joke about that. I don't remember what I
was like before having kids, because I legitimately don't really remember,
just because I mean, they just take up so much
of your life. So like before I kind of just
(03:11):
thought I was a normal guy. Like I never really
thought anything of the head noise that I would have
had or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Were there any moments, this is before kids, where you thought,
hang on a second, you know, this doesn't feel quite right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
When I was a teenager, there was a couple of
instances where I did think that, Like I know, I
just you know, might have felt a little bit sad
and didn't know why. And then I just sort of
put it down to nothing really, And I mean as teenager,
you sort of get on with it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You're still kind of regulating your emotions. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, and it wasn't I mean, the mental health conversation
wasn't so prominent. Now it's so it's really prominent, which
is great, so much better because yeah, like I think
maybe then maybe I would have I don't know, maybe
I would have thought something's not right if I don't know,
and it was such a thing, But I didn't really
know it was such a thing till after.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Having Yeah, I don't think going through high.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
School the last thing I'm thinking about totally. I don't
think it about chicks.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I don't think I could say there was anyone that
I knew who had depression. It wasn't really a word that.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was that you really knew that you would have known.
I mean that's part of the problem, right, it's the stigma.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
So yeah, before kids, I just thought I was a
normal guy and just going along my normal life. I think,
like as maybe closer to when I was getting married,
I had a few moments where I was like maybe
a little bit maybe a little bit, yeah, a little
bit sad boy, But I just again, I just thought
that was who I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Was when you found yourself in those moments where you
were sad or upset. Was it off the back of
anything that had happened. Was there a trigger for that
or was it just waking up one day and feeling
not that I can recall.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, I felt like sometimes if I was missing out
on something, then maybe I was a little bit more
down in the dumps. But I just thought it was
normal thought that I never thought really anything of it.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So then when you had Oscar and the situation you
found yourself in that moment with your mental health, was
that more severe than what you'd experienced previously.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, so like really started when having Oscar is such
like a big change in your life. Right for everyone,
it's obviously good. You know, you've made the decision to
have a child, and well, I'm very excited as you do.
But like, it's such a big impact on your life.
And I always say to people that are expecting their
first kid, like, you can never be prepared. No matter
(05:34):
how prepared you think you are, you're not. You just
don't know what you're going to get totally. There's so
many different variables, but.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Every kid is is wildly different. I look at Marley,
I look at Lola and they had just worlds apart.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Oh yeah, and like the first you know, the first
six twelve months was completely different too. So I think
like when we had Oscar, even from the delivery suite
where things didn't really go to plan. It was sort
of he was such a grumpy, grouchy baby.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
If anyone who doesn't know, we've spoken about before, but
it was a sea section.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It was ended up being an emergency sea section after
like twenty four hours of labor. I think, like now
I look back where actually some of the mental stuff
sort to shine through was even in the even in
the recovery suites when we're you know, a couple of
days in the hospital and me trying to change oscars,
n happy and not being happy with my performance. Like
(06:29):
I was like, holy shit, Like that's where like the
underlending standards, Like I expected myself to be able to
calm that baby and be able to you know, change
that baby like immediately, even though I was like, hand,
that's like my first fucking day on the job, but
I didn't think anything of it. Then I just would
get frustrated, so frustrated like immediately, and then yeah, we
(06:50):
sort of you know, we packed up, went home, did
that forty k and hour home because you're like just
thing in the back of the car as every dad
would do, where you just like so fragile, am I
strapped in the car correctly, all that sort of stuff.
And then we got home, and yeah, he was quite
a cranky baby. He was really uncomfortable. We sort of
(07:12):
a little bit later found out that he had silent
reflux and he had dairy intolerance.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Which is so tough.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, so and for anyone who don't really know, he
would be like asleep for forty minutes the first sleep window,
and then obviously he would be burning in his esophacus,
and like we didn't know any of that, and like
you know, like.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Like I said, isn't he loving me? Why doesn't he
love me?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But like he wouldn't sleep, And then it was caused
me and April blaming each other for why he can't
sleep and all that sort of shit, and like, you know,
as two people in the household, three people in the
household now just tied all the time, it was really
taking a toll on April, who's got a feed We're
not knowing what's wrong. And then I go back to work,
(07:58):
and I think, did you have off? Initially I had
two weeks off.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Oh that was it?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And then I was.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Did you have matt leeb for yourself?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Is that no I had? I can't quite recall.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, that's quick.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It was only two weeks. And then I went back
to work for two weeks. And during those two weeks
it was really really tough coming home to see my
shell of a wife that I had, because this kid
had absolutely taken it all day and it was like
really taking its toll. On April, and after two weeks,
I've said to my work, I'm going to have to
(08:33):
take more time off to try and help support. And
again we still didn't know that Oscar had silent reflux
and a dairy intolerance.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
You have little brief moments, because Lola was similar where
she was just didn't sleep, didn't eat, and you have
little moments where you're like, oh, this is nice, she
just gave me a smile, and this is yeah, I
guess that little like spark that I was looking for
when I was thinking about becoming a new parent. But
then bulk of it is just screams, screams.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, I recall taking a photo of me and Oscar
when he was so young, and I think a captions
are in between screams, and people were like, holy shit,
that hit me hard because they're like, that's so true.
Those moments in between you got to try and find
but we weren't finding any, and like it was so
early days that like, yeah, I've said and thankfully the
(09:25):
job I had at the time, they were like, yeah,
take as much time as you need, which is really great.
They sort of understood that was.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It a case. And I guess there is this expectation
of like, all throughout pregnancy, everyone's just like, this is
going to be the most amazing moment of your life
and build it up year totally. Like the bar is
of expectation is so incredibly high, and then when it
doesn't match that, all of a sudden, you're like, well,
I'm failing as a family.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That's kind of what I felt like, Yeah, And it
also felt like people were always like asking me, oh,
how's the sleep. Just shut the fuck up and stop
asking me that fucking question because it's obviously not good.
Look eggs on my eyes. I'm off work again. Oscar
was just absolutely draining us to the point where like
I resented him, which sucks for him. And that's as
(10:11):
hard as it is for people to hear that I
fucking hated him. Look, we build a bridge, thankfully, but.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Like I guess it's like for anyone listening, he maybe
doesn't have kids. It is a really interesting situation to
be in where like, at its core, obviously love your child.
Yeah you know, it's almost like I love that will
never be broken. But at the same time, it's this
juxtaposition where this child that you love like unconditionally is
(10:39):
also the cause of so many problems, so many problems,
and it's really really strange, and nothing eats you up
more than those moments of frustration that are directed towards
your baby.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Oh yeah, because then you feel guilty about it afterwards
because it's like, I don't know anyway. So, like it
was just getting really, really really bad, to the point
where it was really affecting April's mental health. She was,
you know, leaving the house and not coming back, and
we were having to seek help because she was depressed,
(11:11):
she hated everything. She was obviously suffering from depression. So
my first initial thought there is to make sure she
has help and we did that. We did what we
needed to do, went saw the GP, and the GP
said it was really really bad and recommending us this
place called Sin John of God, which was out at Burwood,
which April's in denial about that doesn't want to do it.
(11:34):
They have a really great mother and child program out there.
And it was like, do we need to do that?
Is it that bad? And we tried to help ourselves
before we had to get to that point. I remember
there was this one day Abe went for a physio appointment,
like a postpart of physio appointment, and she just didn't
come back, and I was like, what the Fuck's going
on here? She didn't come back, and then eventually she
(11:56):
did and she said I just drove around the block,
not wanting to come in because I just hated the situation. Wow,
which was real tough, And at that point, I've made
the call that we've got to go.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
When we rang and said you know we're coming in,
they said, okay, cool, no worries. We went in and
we checked in like two days later to this mental hospital.
They were really great and it was a beautiful facility
and stuff, but essentially I had to drop my wife
and kid off there left him for eight weeks, which
I was allowed to visit. I was allowed to stay.
They were really good. It was really tough. Like I said, like,
they had great facilities, and I've got this really good
(12:30):
mother and child program which the child goes in with
you when you first get there, they obviously know that
you're fucking exhausted. Essentially, the baby sleeps in the nursery.
I can't remember how old he was at this point,
like five or six weeks. He might have been a
little bit older. But they do all this group stuff
and they see psychologists and try and they give them
(12:53):
the tools to really work with it, which is really
really great. And got to see that.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So at this point, how was your mental health? Because
April had been diagnosed and she was seeking help.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
At this point, I had to completely put myself to
the side. I was like, it is not about me,
it's about them. It was great for me to get
some rest as well, to sort of start to see
things in a bit more light. But yeah, I was
going back and forth for that whole time. Yeah, I
was sort of got closer to the end of that time,
and I remember I had a conversation with my sister,
(13:25):
and she was like, oh, it's all you know, great
that she's getting better. She was just like, what about you?
And I was like, I'd never really and like we
spoke about the other day, I was like, you know,
it's kind of like when you're in an aeroplane and
the oxygen mask dropped down, you got to put yourself
on before you start to help others. And she was like,
do you not ever think about that?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And I was kind of like shit, and it sort
of planted a seed for me. I remember there was
like a couple of weeks to go, and they were like, look,
we're going to allow April to have like a home visit.
Can't come home for the night. I was going to
come home too, just for the night and see how
it goes. It went pretty well, Like it was a
little bit rocky because obviously know when it's like even now,
when your kids sleep in a different environment, it's it's
(14:03):
never great, so you know, but it was really good
to have them home and eventually they discharged her and
came home and we were in a much better play.
Best thing we ever did, like now I look back,
the best thing we ever did was take up on
that program and thankfully we were covered under insurances and
stuff like that, which I know that some people don't
have that don't have that same thing, and look, there
(14:24):
should be more of it and more accessible for families.
But yeah, like they came home and you know, we
sort of were better equipped and had more knowledge, and
like it wasn't perfect. We were still going through the
Now April, we have to look at Okay, she can't
eat dairy, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Of course because then the milk that she's producing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah. Yeah, so then we had to manage the silent
reflux and stuff. So there were still its challenges, but
it was you know, chalk and cheese so much better
because we're you know, well and more equipped, but.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
We're aware of yeah issues, and April.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Was on the man really well, like she was, you know,
starting to be more positive and starting to find She
definitely said that she started to love him much more
and have those moments and I wasn't having them yet,
which you know, I accepted because they you know, they
were living together in a facility.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, it's so hard, even though deep down you love
your child to express that love when you're completely overrun
with that frustration, the relationship with Marley, it was very instant.
She was a dream child. Yeah, she slept anywhere, she ate,
she fed beautifully. Yeah, fucking life was easy. And then
(15:36):
with Lola, that affection was kind of like masked.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, it was masked by the frustration of why aren't
you like that one?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, totally, Like I was happy that everyone was home
and happy that you know, we're on the end, and
I think, like it wasn't obvious to me, but it
was obvious to April that I was getting worse. She
just said to me that you're different, said something about
you is different. She said, you're frustrated, You're angry. I
(16:04):
can see it. I can see it in your eyes
that you're just not something's not rare and for me,
and like, deep down for me, I was essentially without
me knowing, planning my escape from the situation. Still even
what do you mean by that? I just didn't want
to be there anymore. I just there was conversations that
I had had with April saying that I don't love
(16:26):
this kid, and it was like, that's to say it now.
It is heartbreaking, but it was like that was the
situation that I didn't want to be there anymore. Didn't
mean self harm. It just means I just wanted to
move on from this. And when they were in a position,
my honest thoughts at the time were, once they're in
a position where they're comfortable, I'm going to leave, which
(16:48):
now it fucking breaks my heart to say that, but
that was the god honest truth. And I remember April
saying to me, you know we're getting better, you're getting worse.
And she kept saying that to me, she said, you
need to sort this out.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
At that point, did you agree with her? Were you
thinking maybe I could have something wrong with my mental health?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, when she was blunt to me and said that,
you know, we need to have a look at this.
Because you helped us, we need to help you. And like,
thankfully we had built like a bit of a rapport
with our GP over all of everything that happened with April.
And as soon as I booked that appointment and sat
in her office, she knew straight away and I was
(17:28):
just a fucking mess, and she was just like, holy shito.
She was just like, you guys have forgotten. You guys
get forgotten so much because it is all about mum
and the baby, as it should be because she's providing life,
she's nurturing, she's you know, feeding. She's like I always
(17:48):
say that that first big moment, you know distances there
are newborn is that you could be any old blob,
but you won't be mum, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But it's also a teamwork between mom and dad, and
obviously there is a big difference between she's.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
The team captain totally. But yeah, I remember when I, like,
I said, I saw the GP and she was just like,
you know, we did all the testing to like how
I'm actually feeling, and she was like, we need to
sort this out.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So what's the steps from that moment?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
For the steps from that moment is you come up
with a mental health plan with your GP, which is
really important, just to sit down and talk about, you know,
what the plan is, what resources are available, and how
you want to tackle it, and what you're comfortable with
as well, which you know, she was saying to me,
I get a lot more women than men, and she
(18:38):
was very honest about that, and she was like, but
she she said, I would love to see more men
because so many couple sit in here and I can
see it that maybe I don't know. Something is not
right and she was like, you're at a point where
you've made the decision to be here, which is the
best decision you've made? And it was. And we went
from there in terms of referrals to who would benefit
(18:59):
me the most in the area? Is there some resources online?
How far did I was? I willing to go to
make myself feel better? Made it really easy, So you know,
I made the decision at that point to see someone professionally,
and April was like, whatever it costs, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Is that a therapist?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, so whatever it costs, whatever it takes so that
we can get you back on track. And it was
fucking scary, dude. It was nerve wracking. And then also
there was that feeling is like what the heck is
wrong with me? So I had that initial GP appointment
and then it was leading into COVID. It was becoming
really hard to see someone.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Do you remember what it was like going to your
very first therapy session?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah? Look, I didn't know what to expect to start
off with. I was like, I don't know what's going
to happen, but it was actually real low key and
was like got an opportunity to sort of just like
sit with someone who didn't know me but knew the
questions to ask and had the tools they could provide
me the tools to try and help. But I remember,
(20:06):
in the leading up to that first appointment, I was
still thankful I had that initial consultation with my GP,
but then I was like in waiting to see someone.
And I remember we went for this family walk to
the shopping center at the end of the street was
and this was like a real like one of those moments,
It's like I need to really fucking help myself here.
I remember we went into Kohle's to do some light shopping.
(20:28):
Oscar's kicked off in the pram. But then as Oscar's
kicked off in the pram, this young group of kids
came in. They were like a Japanese soccer team on
tour and they were just kids. They were like eight
nine tent but they were crazy. No one was in
control of these kids, and I was like, I need
to get a fuck away from these kids because my
anxiety was through the fucking roof. And I was like, oh,
(20:52):
we'll just go down the other end, no worries. We
need to get a couple of things went down the
other end, and I remember I came around the corner
to go to the deli member and they came around
the corner as well, and I was like trying to
get away, and as I went to get away, these
two girls for charity stopped me to ask me for money,
and it just like all overwhelming, had a full panic attack. Anyway,
(21:16):
April ended up finding me hunched over you know, the
nut mix things, and I was literally heavily breathed. I'd
like blacked out, like a full panic attack that had
never happened to me before. And April was like, come on,
let's get the fuck out of here. And at that moment,
I was like, oh my god, like what is happening
to me? Like I was falling to pieces.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
These two girls are like, so you won't donate.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
April was just like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like this is
And having that conversation with my therapist about that moment,
she was just like, you've just hit this peak anxiety
and she's like, to have an anxiety attack in public,
A lot of people have them, but she was like
that's like no, no, she said, a lot of people
have them, but like to call it, recount the whole thing,
(22:01):
and then you were like blacked out over you know,
and then sort of came to down a random aisle
like it's wild. But yeah, it was definitely a big
shining moment for me that I was like, fuck, something's
not right. Yeah, and we're you know, that was how
many years ago? Now what you were in? That was
like four years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And at this point you've spoken about the fact that
you've got this really great mother's group. The dads in
that group, you guys still hang out now, you guys
were BALI recently together? Were you still spending time together?
Or had you guys found that mother's group?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
We had found it, but it was it was very
early days because we had found it, and then April
wasn't there for eight weeks. And look, they know, they
know now what was going on, and only a select
few people knew now what was going on? I had
three months off work. I remember what.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
About then your close group of mates.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, there was a couple that knew what was happening?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Could they in the lead up to that moment? Obviously,
April she knows that something's not quite right. Whenever your
mates saying ah, something's a bit off.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
No, I hit it a lot. I think it came
as a shock. I remember a friend of mine drove
past me out the front of the therapy place and
I was coming out it's right, and he rang me
and he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, oh,
like yeah, just started seeing someone and I was seeing
someone like once a fortnight, and he was like shit
(23:28):
like he definitely opened his heart and his arms to
Me'd be like, if you need anything, let us know.
And you know, I slowly told more and more people
that things weren't okay, but I were telling people that
things were okay, so that they kind of knew that
it was okay if things were okay with them too.
I remember I one of my friends at the time
is still a really good friend, when I told him,
and then he got really inquisitive about the whole thing,
(23:50):
and he was like he was going through a bit
of a breakup at the time. He was just like
not feeling himself. And I was like, go and do it, mate.
It's honestly, like so relieving. And I remember I saw
him a few weeks later he said I did it,
and I was like, oh, how'd you go and he
was like, well, I booked it and then he said
I was going after work and he was like, I
just felt rushed and I felt unprepared. And I was like, oh, yeah,
(24:13):
he goes. I got there and then hed it just
all came out of me, and he was like, he goes,
I felt fucking great.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
He I couldn't believe how much emotion I had, like
pent up, yeah, and it just stockpiling and like he
only ever saw the therapist once, and he was like,
it did wonders because he was like, there's so many
things that I didn't think I could talk to anyone about,
but once I've spoken to them about it, felt like
I can talk to other people about it. And yeah,
(24:41):
like and a very strong believer that everyone should at
least go once in their life.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Do you think if any of your mates had reached out,
this is before you'd gone to the therapist for the
first time, and if they had said, Ash, something's not
quite right. Can we talk about it? Do you think
looking back, you would have or do you think you
still would have mastered it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think I would have opened up somewhat, but it
took me to go to therapy to really understand some
of my behaviors and some of my thought processes. And
that's the biggest thing. You really find out a lot
about yourself. I remember I sitting with my therapists and talking.
You know, I've got a different therapist now, just because
I sort of evolved a little bit. But the initial
(25:24):
therapist that we were talking about some behaviors, and it
was crazy that some of the behaviors that are common
in that, you know, the anxiety and depression and unrelenting standards,
some of the behaviors that I was doing that I
didn't even recognize, like what, for example, off the top
of my head, like you know, really incorporating like the
(25:45):
unrelenting standards thing into you know, who and why. I
was getting so frustrated, who at and why? And it
wasn't the situation. It was me that I was getting
so frustrated with. So like I told this story about
how I flu oscar up to see my parents at
their place for the very first time. I was so
organized to a tea that when something went wrong, I
(26:08):
was so fucking angry, But I didn't really realize who
I was angry at. I was angry at me, so
like for example, I'd organized everything and then we got
to the airport to get to the rental car and
realize the rental car place wasn't actually in the airport.
We had to get a shuttle. Set me off. I
was like a wrecking ball, mate, And it was like
(26:28):
just those little behaviors that it's like, hang on a minute,
like that's not that big of a deal. But it
was like, you know, recognizing that I wasn't getting angry,
I was you know, who I was angry at, or
why I was getting angry, or why I was feeling
the way I was feeling, or just like the behaviors
of doing things to escape the reality that you're in
(26:50):
instead of doing things for the joy of it, or
doing things for other you know, decent and positive reasons.
But yeah, like straight away learnt so much about myself.
I remember I had that's right. I had like a
meltdown at a bus stop once because I had misplaced
my wallet, which is not a big fucking deal real
in the scheme of things, but I was so angry
with myself. I smashed my phone up, fucking smashed a
(27:12):
bust shelter up, got on a bus and was like
just told the driver, and I'm like, I don't have
I don't have any money, I don't have anything. I'm
fucking getting on this bas like just like. And then
I remember getting home and being like wow, like just
like a fit of my own rate. But I was
just angry with me and it was so you know,
and like. And then I was like sort of feeling
(27:33):
that I didn't want to be around anymore. And I
was seeing a therapist. It was getting better, things were
getting better, which was great, but then I always had
those moments where I was like, I don't know, I
don't want to be around anymore. And it evolved I
stopped seeing I stopped seeing a therapist after a while.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And at this point, had you you'd already been diagnosed
with depression.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And anxiety and some unrelenting standards.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, and so were you medicated?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, so on top of therapy, I was medicated, which
I am still still medicated. My dosage isn't quite as
high as it used to be, but medicated daily, which
a lot of people are, to sort of keep my
you know, social anxiety and my depression sort of it
sort of levels you out, I think, and I really
felt the difference.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm going to be really naive here. But is it
a case of once you take that first pill, from
that moment on you notice a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Noah, nah, So you've got to like you definitely ease
into it. I remember I eased into it at a
certain dosage and it was like is it doing anything?
Not really, And then they sort of up it. But
then there's you know, they don't just be like, yeah,
let's just up it. You know, you've got to have
the process. Yeah, there's a process. And then coming off
it as well, there's like, you know, I've tried to
(28:51):
come off it before. It just didn't work. It's just
really bad, like anxiety. And after I felt like I
was getting better and things were getting so much better
at home, like Oscar was sort of turned a corner
and was loving and COVID did us a real big
soul because it gave me the opportunity to be at
home a lot with him, and I rebuilt that bond,
(29:12):
which was great, and like I missed that lockdown because
I got to rebuild that bond with Oscar. Now he's
talking back to me.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But no, that's obviously it's got its own challenges when
he's as he is now, but at that point back then,
when he you know, he was just like sliding along
the ground and really really cute and like doing those
things for the first time.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Like and they start to I always found that the
relationship with Lola, it improved drastically when she could just
give me a little bit back.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, it does, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Obviously, I'm not talking about like they kind of at
this point kind of in talk, but when they smile,
when they sit, when you walk in the room and
they recognize your face and give you a smile, or
they wake up in the morning you go into the
room and you just get that little reaction. You know.
I feel like I'm quite needy when I say that
as a parent, but those little things.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Keep you going.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Oh sure, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, and it keep going, specially even through like you'll
be having a real shit time with some sleep regression
or something and then they'll do something really cute and
you're like, hey, gay kind.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Of makes that thread.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
But yeah, like during COVID like really helped me build
that bond back with Oscar. But I was still was
the adamant that I didn't want any more kids. I
was like nah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
We know that running is such a powerful vehicle to
creating positive impact and at the end of this month
is more than a run powered by a little Lemon.
For the third year in a row.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
It's a community run that happens on the twenty fifth
of November. It's in support of November this year.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And since they started it was about two years ago,
they have raised over one point four to eight million dollars,
which is a huge effort, and they've had over four
thousand runners across Australia and New Zealand. ASH. No surprise here,
but we will be taking in the event. There is
an option in Sydney, there's one in Centennial Park or
one in Manly. We will do the Manly one. We'll
(31:06):
do the Manly one closer to you.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
A bit of local knowledge down there. So the options
Matt are ten, thirty and sixty kilometers. Just stick to
what we know.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Let's go very tempting, isn't it It is?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
However, we'll do the ten down in Manly as mentioned.
But if you want to get involved you can do
so online, which we will leave in the notes of
this episode the link sign up for the run this
year and join me and Matt struggle through even just
ten you be sick.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
We were running it decked that Lili Lemon and also
with mustaches on full display. Absolutely once again people being
confused between who was Matt who was Ash? You will
run with a hat on shore?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, yes, and we look forward to seeing you guys
down there or for a really, really, really good course.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Can I ask this with your medication when your therapist
said we're going to medicate you.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
X YGP, I really offered it up.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And what was your jerk reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
My knee jerk reaction is I don't want to be
some medicated freak. And that's just honesty in my head,
which is so wrong and so incorrect.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I don't know where that comes from, because I would
be the same.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think it's just stigma. Mate. You're just like you
don't want to be seen as a fruit loop, Like
let's be completely honest, Like you want to be seen
like you've got it together. Yeah, And I was so
embarrassed that I didn't want people to know that I
was medicated. But then it sort of got to a
point in you know, situation where I was like, fuck it,
what does it matter? No, one, I'll get a lot
of the same like response. It's like oh really and
(32:37):
that's about it. Yeah, that was it. But like I
do recall being off of it and being like, nah,
I can do this on my eye. It's such a
fucking man thing to think, no, you can't make you
can't make it. Give yourself an upper cart, chuck something
in your mouth and get on with it. But like
it was kind of like I don't need that. Shit
(32:59):
sounds like grandfather.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
The GPS must hear that all the time.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
They must be like, yeah, like breaking down that barrier
must be real. It must be a real, like breath
of fresh air when someone like me comes in and
it's just completely honest and like both both the therapists
that I've had have always said to me, like, you're
very very very open and honest about your situation, you know,
and that's helped me a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
So was it the case of from this moment on,
you're medicated, you're sing a therapist, everything is great, ash
is fixed.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
You trick yourself a lot. I find that I'm really
good at noticing when I've tricked myself, which seems to
be a lot trick myself that I'm okay when I'm not,
and you know what I mean, Like I think ever
since seeing a therapist, I was like, okay, well I'm
getting better, I'm getting better. I must be better. It
must be better. Now. I did stop seeing a therapist
(33:55):
for a while there and started to like come off
my medication and yeah, I don't know, I just felt
like it creeps back. It creeps back, like the head
noise creeps back in where I think for me, the
biggest thing was like my inner fight or flight would
be flight, Let's get the fuck out of here, which
sucks because I love my family very much, but it
(34:18):
was something else telling me that you need to get
yourself out of this situation, you don't need to be here.
But always I would be like I could never do that.
I could never let my family down like that. And
April was always really good at pointing it out, like mate,
you know. And there's been times where like I've woken
April up in the middle of the night where I've
(34:40):
woken up with anxiety and been like or even situations
where I've woken up saying that I don't want to
be here anymore, which is you know, She's been real
strong about that. And also she's had times where she
said to me, like, I'm sick of you telling me
you don't want to be here anymore sometimes and it's
not me. It's not me, And it is really hard
to maintain. And that's the thing, like people think the
(35:03):
hard part is I hate to break it too, people.
It's the hard part is not going to face your demons.
It's maintaining them. And some people, some people don't just
struggle even more with that because the maintenance part is
so hard. Like I seeing my therapist. I saw my
therapist the other day and she was like, she just
straight up to me and said, you've lost focus. She
(35:25):
could just heelp, you've lost focus. Why you want to
be better for your family, You've lost focus why you
want to be better for yourself. You need to find
the focus again. Otherwise, if it gets too far away,
you're slip into denial. Then you'll start to deny that
you've got a problem, which you do that all the
fucking time anyway, but it becomes more prominent and more
front focus that you don't have a problem, and then
(35:47):
all of a sudden you slip into serious depression and
anxiety and we all know what can happen there where
people take their own lives, which is absolutely tragic. But
when you suffer with it, and you you suffer in silence,
it must be way worse. There's been times where April's
like I don't know what's going to happen, like I'm
afraid to leave you alone, or look, it hasn't been
(36:10):
a lot of times, but it has been times, and
there's been times where like I reckon I think about
escape once a day in some capacity, whether it's me
reflecting on it or reflecting on what I would have done,
and you know how I would have escaped, or like
I don't mean like harm myself, I just mean like
get out, get away.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah. Is that because you think the environment with the
family and with your kids is such a trigger point
for Yeah, you having your mental health issues that by
removing yourself from that it'll make things better. Is that
why you want to escape? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I kind of thought like if I remove myself, I'd
be better. Like it's not really the case, is that
you know you can't. It's such a shit way to
think about, like you can run away from your problems
and people do, oh for sure, And look I would
regret that, and my my therapist and I talk about
that a lot, talk about that, like, if I'd have
done that, I would have made it would be the
(37:07):
worst thing I could have done. I would have been
separated from my on exile island, from my children, you
know what I mean. Which there's challenges now, but like
they're nowhere near as challenging as it was. I was
adamant that I didn't want to have a second child,
but now like I can't imagine my life without a
second child.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, I guess because having Oscar like that was you know,
it was a line in the sand where post childbirth,
that's when these problems started to really rear its head.
Were you thinking, Gosh, if I have a second child,
I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Do it again?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I think. Yeah. It was like I hated so much
of what he did to April, hated it, hated coming
home to see her, and she was a shell of
who the person that I used to know. And there
were times there that I just hated everybody. And then
when it came around too, like, look, we were in
(38:01):
a much better place, we had learned so much. We've
sort of had the conversation a lot of times about
a second kid, and I think when we decided to
do it, we were in a much better place. It
still had its dramas, and then you threw COVID on
top of that as well, which we had got COVID
six weeks into having Macie, and it was like the
fucking worst, you know, because then you're isolated on top
(38:23):
of that as well. But I think we had the
tools to manage it better, and you know, we were
much more able to have the conversations with each other
that we felt like we weren't allowed to have back then.
You know, like April'll been able to pull me up
and say you need to go. You need to even
just go and do something for yourself right now because
(38:45):
you're not the best version of you.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So you talk about maintenance being one of the hardest things. Yeah,
so what are the tools that you have in your
kind of arsenal that you rely on to make sure
that maintenance is still a priority.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Look, I try and make sure that I keep my
appointments with my therapists regularly, even when I feel like
I'm okay, even when it's not a trick, you know,
and it's like I don't know what I'm going to
talk about. I feel like it's still a must to
go and I never regret it, never regret going. It's
not the cheapest exercise, don't get me wrong, but like
(39:19):
it's worth every cent. That's one big thing where it's
like always go back. I think, Like for me, I
don't have like a lot of coping mechanisms that I
know of. Like, look, I'm quite a heavy drinker. But
when I first started to become a really heavy drinker,
it was to escape. But now I don't drink to escape.
I drink, you know, mainly for the social and the
(39:39):
fun aspect in that I do find myself sometimes down
in the dumps about it, but I can recognize it
pretty quickly. But like in terms of like coping, the
exercise has been a big one. Look at the moment,
because I've been crooked. Shit, it sucks, and I do recall,
like when we're in isolation a lot, running like really
(40:00):
was amazing for my mental health, That's right. I was
like I was doing like ten or fifteen k's a
day every day because it made me feel so good.
You know. I surf a lot as much as I can,
and I find like the high after that, you know,
it gets me through it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
But yeah, I've always said I've never been one to meditate.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I couldn't do that really either. I tried really hard.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I tried so hard everybody else who was doing it
would look at me and go, this is going to
change your life. Yeah, And I was like, I want
to tap into that so hard and then.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It's practice, right, And Abel and I would meditate together
a bit there to try encourage us to do it.
I found that what worked better for me was breathing
exercises like whim Half. And I've gotten slack again because sick, unmotivated.
It's hard to breathe when you can't breathe through your
nice But yeah, I found that after a while like
(40:55):
wim Hof, because I could concentrate on the breath better
than I could concentrate on the voice, you know what
I mean. I find I would drift off so much,
but it's practice. And like people who are really good
at meditation, they'll tell you I've practiced my ass off
to be here, which is fair. It wasn't something that
I overly used as a tool. I found the exercise
(41:16):
and running and that sort of stuff was much better
used to go to the gym a lot. I also
found friends were really good. It was really good to
have like friends that you could talk to about It
was really really important. And sometimes even helping friends as
well really help me. And that's what is also really important.
If someone never discounts someone saying that they're not feeling okay.
(41:37):
I found that like I could be like, what do
you mean? Because I would have I might not have
the answers.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Would you ask the same questions that the therapist.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Would No, Nah, because it's really important, and I step
into my office, it's really important not to provide a solution,
but just hit listen. Yeah, that was the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Because I guess one question that I think would be
really helpful is what advice would you give to somebody
else if their friend is in a similar situation where
they're reaching out and they're saying I'm not okay. How
is it best to manage those conversations? You think, knowing
what you know now.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Don't be expected to provide a solution. Like I said,
just listen sometimes and I've said it to April a
few times, I said, I don't want you to give
me a solution. Don't give me a fucking answer. I
just want you to listen, because as well intentioned as
the solution might be, it's not what I want from
you right now. So like if I've had friends that
(42:30):
have come to me and said I'm not okay, what
should I do? I always say CGP straight away, see
a professional is what you should do. But if you
don't want to do that, you don't want to go
through that, mate, I'll sit here for an hour while
you talk, and if you want me to provide any insight,
I will. But if you don't want me to, there's
(42:51):
no judgment from me whatsoever. I'll sit here with you
for as long as it takes. That's really powerful as well.
But like I always say, go and see GP. They're
not going to bite your head off. All they're going
to do is provide some tools. And whether you want
the I need heap to help because I feel like
I'm going to off myself or I want to escape
(43:11):
my reality or whatever it might be. You can go
as far as that. Or if it's like look, I
just sometimes I just need someone to talk to. They
can provide you someone or a helpline or some other tools.
There's so much stuff out there. Yeah, Like I always
try and push people to see you gp.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
It's funny. Even I'm really fortunate in that I don't
suffer from depression, but.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
You know, of.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
We should, hey, but that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yes, that's what's true.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
But there are so many times as a parent, as
a husband where I am really frustrated. I have really
bad days, and my biggest coping mechanism is going for
a run. Laura can see the change in me almost
instantly as obvious as like, as I'm doing tasks around
the house, I'm heavy footed, getting a bit eggy. The
(44:06):
way in which I talk to Lawa and the kids,
Laura can tell that that's creeping up and straight away
she's like, get outside, yeah, get a change of scenery.
You know, whether it's a half an hour run, whatever
you do, just to like blow those co webs out
makes such a huge difference, it does.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And like even if you go for a walk, man,
Like there's been times where I've gone I don't want
to go for a run because I don't feel like
sweet masks off. I'll just go for a walk, man,
I'll chuck something in like I always as well try
and listen to people, people who create music, and some
of thetime you know in their backstory, like someone like
(44:42):
post Malone or someone like Gang of Views and they've
got a backstory something like that. I'll always try to
do to give me some perspective or to make me
feel like where I'm at that other people are in
the same situation, and that does help me through, even
if it's just on a walk or something like that,
because we all know that can be fucking sometimes, but
(45:03):
just you know, get out in it. You know, it's
just one of many ways that you can help yourself.
Everyone's got their own their own thing that makes them happy,
right own hobbies. And I've noticed it even going for
escape now, like just changes just changes how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, And I think that's the biggest surprise, is that
you look at someone at face value. And the last
thing I ever would have imagined is that you would
have this story with your mental health challenges. Like I
would have said that you are someone that would be
so far from any type of depression social anxiety because
you are someone who is able to hide that quite well.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I hide behind a few things. I hide behind
this mustache a lot. I would refuse to. I find
it's sort of something that sits in front of my
face that's sort of a bit like a shield. I
wear a hat a lot because you know, I'm very
open about the hat. I feel like it helps me
with my anxiety. I will try and wear it in
every situation. But yeah, I do hide behind the humor
(46:04):
a lot. I like to take the piece out of everything,
even myself, a lot, because I feel like it helps
me through.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Definitely, I think it doesn't matter who the individual is
and their circumstances. I think mental health is something that
anyone can.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Struggle can struggle with it, whether it's mineor or major.
But I feel like it's really important.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
But also I think it's I think one of the
greatest things about your story is that it's something that
you are now in control of.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, totally. Like I said, the best thing I ever
did was seek help or find my voice about it,
because you start to find out so much about yourself.
And I think, like I said, everyone everyone should go
and see someone. Whether you don't think you should or not,
or whether you think you're completely fine or not, there's
no harm in trying to find a bit more about yourself.
(46:56):
Because it could help you down the track.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Definitely, Ash, I want to say thank you for being
really vulnerable. I know it sounds like a weird thing
to say at the end of this, but I can
only appreciate how hard it would be as a topic
to unpack, especially because it's so far from what we
normally talk about.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, look for me, I'm happy to do it, and
I'm always been very transparent. And if you know one
person listening to this can find some relatability, or find
some comfort or find encouraged voice, then I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
And look, if you're listening in any of the topics,
have struck a call with you and you think I
do want to reach out. Obviously, as Ash said, there
is the GP, but some other really amazing organizations out
there are Lifeline, there is suicide Callback service and also
Beyond Blue support service as well. The contact details for
each of those will put into the show notes, but
(47:52):
also there's a great page on the November website which
lists out all these organizations and the contact details. So
please don't be shy to reach out. And I will
say as well that if there is anyone who you
think has immediate danger with their own life obviously called
Triple zero. Sure but ash, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Thank you, and look, if you don't want to get
in touch with any of them, just get in touch
with me if you want. I'm happy to sit and listen,
so dm us if you like.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Before we go, we do just want to give one
last thanks to today's sponsor, Lululemon. They are global technical,
athletic atpower brands. They are forty four stores across Australia
and New Zealand, creating transformational products and experiences for both men.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And women, and they focus on building meaningful connections, unlocking
greater possibilities and well being for all. For more information,
visit lululemon dot com or heading to one of these stores.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Thanks Lululemon. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians
of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, see
and community.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land
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