Paul Brown and Brad Cohen

Paul Brown, from audio described Aotearoa, and Brad Cohen, General Director for New Zealand Opera, with the world's first use of refreshable braille displays for readers to access surtitles for NZ Opera. To find out more go to: https://nzopera.com/whats-on/accessibility/

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:15):
On Vision Australia Radio this is Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.

S2 (00:23):
It's always great to hear about world first. I think
we've got one here as far as audio description with
a bit of a difference and New Zealand Opera tell
us a bit more about it. We've got the general
director for New Zealand Opera, Brad Cowan. Brad, great to
meet you. Thank you for your time.

S3 (00:37):
Nora. Peter, thank you very much for having me on.

S2 (00:40):
And also from audio describe Aotearoa Paul Brown Paula, welcome
and I appreciate you speaking to us.

S4 (00:46):
And Kia ora thanks. Yeah great to talk.

S2 (00:48):
Uh, Brad maybe you can kind of uh, background since
you're with New Zealand Opera, uh, have you done audio
description in the past? And how is this different way
of presenting it come about? Yeah.

S3 (00:57):
Well, I, um, my background is as a conductor in opera, so.
Audio description. Uh, signing on stage are both parts of
my experience of making opera over the last three decades
throughout the world. Clearly, Francis leads our participation department at
um Nzso, and she is passionate about accessibility and has

(01:19):
collaborated deeply with Paul and Nicola, who's Paul's partner in
audio described Aotearoa. So when I came in as general
director last year, this was already a really active part
of the company's offerings to offer access to blind and
low vision users. From my own perspective, I came in
having done a lockdown project to reimagine what surtitles for

(01:43):
the opera House might look like if they were brought,
you know, from the late 19th century into the 21st.
So we've been doing work independently, and it was a
kind of fusion moment when it became clear to me
and my business partner, Hugh Glaser, that accessibility would be
a really major advantage for new satellite titling technologies. That is,

(02:04):
people who couldn't read characters on the screen or had
difficulty reading them. That is low vision. Users needed, uh,
parallel routes to experience the same surtitles in real time.
And that was the problem. Paul will go into this
in more detail, I'm sure, but as an opera lover,
you don't really want someone talking in your ear with
audio description while there's orchestral music or singing going on.

(02:27):
And so the beautiful solution for this is that the
Braille surtitles are fed silently to a Braille reader. It
doesn't disturb anyone's neighbours, and it doesn't disturb the auditor
who's hearing what's going on while being able to read
the surtitles with their fingers. So I'm sure Paul talked
in more detail about that. But for us, the really

(02:50):
exciting was a new conduit to real time experience for
blind and low vision users.

S2 (02:56):
Yeah. So, Paul, how does it work? Tell us what
you've got at your fingertips literally and then how it
all works.

S4 (03:01):
So I have a brilliant, uh, by 40 x, but
you could have any other, um, refreshable braille display. You open, um,
a link, uh, you get to something called context live.
And when Brad presses the button or whatever happens, uh,
to make it go, the subtitles appear under your fingers

(03:25):
and automatically refresh as, uh, as the singers move on
to the next line. So you're reading, uh, the subtitles
in real time without having to to listen to the,
the the audio description. And I did an article, spoke
to the Guardian, and Kennedy talked about the audio description

(03:46):
interfering with the opera. And I felt a bit bad
about that because that's because I don't believe that. Right.
I think audio description does enhance. Right. And I think,
you know, the audio traditional spoken audio description, we try and, uh,
it's tried to be kept when there's not singing or,
you know, when it's lots of repetition and stuff, but
you know, you're still listening to that and to the opera.

(04:08):
This was being able to listen hard, listen fully to
the opera and read the Braille surtitles on my display.
And it was particularly important for this, uh, opera because
the subtitles had been translated into Kiwi slang, you know,
so you had things like chummy and bro and all

(04:29):
sorts of Kiwi isms. So the audience were actually laughing
at the surtitles, and I could laugh at the same time. Yeah. Um,
it's really cool because the subtitles were, you know, that
kind of translation. So. So, yeah, I mean, it was
it was pretty, pretty seamless. Um, there's a few quirks
to get used to. So, you know, if the subtitles

(04:51):
don't move for a bit, you end up, uh, going
back to the top of the document, and you just
have to get yourself down to where they start again.
That's minor. You get used to those weird quirks, um,
you know, but when it's. Going, it moves automatically. It
means you can listen them in the first time the
Braille started moving automatically, I shrieked. You know, I just

(05:13):
thought it was just quite incredible, you know, that that
this was, was was happening. I just under my fingers.
I wasn't doing anything. The Braille was moving and I
was getting the subtitles for this piece of music that
Brad was playing. It was quite, quite awesome. And, uh,
I think it has a whole lot of possibilities and

(05:33):
probably some that we haven't even thought about yet, you know?
So immediately I thought of, uh, non-English films, you know,
foreign language films. Yeah. Uh, Maori films here, you know,
for people who where they're subtitled is, you know, so
if you could set it up at the right time,
it could run, uh, against, um, you know, because it's

(05:54):
always interesting when you talk to deaf people in it,
they all they all go to look at it only
struck me a while after that. They all go to
foreign language non-English films because the subtitles. Um, it is
plain people don't, you know, because there's subtitles, you know,
what's the point of listening to unless you speak the language? Well,
you know, but if you could have access to those subtitles,

(06:16):
I think musical scores potentially. So that people don't need
so many pages of music, it would move along at
the right time. You you'd need to see how that
worked on a Braille display. You know, you need to
give it a go. We don't know yet. You know
how much information blind people can manage. Some of the
subtitles move pretty quickly, but I kept up. That was cool.

(06:38):
There was places where we could have added in some
of the audio description and writing, so that I got
a wee bit of that as well. Um, so I
do think it's a work in progress. It's something that
we have to play with and see how people experience
it in real time, but it's potential I think is awesome.

S2 (06:57):
Would you describe yourself as a proficient Braille reader poll?

S4 (07:00):
Yes, I've been reading Braille since I was five. Um,
so quite a long time ago. Okay.

S2 (07:07):
Uh, I guess for those people who probably can't read Braille,
this isn't an option. But still, for those that can't, obviously, uh,
a wonderful, uh, inclusive writer to be involved.

S4 (07:16):
But I might come back on this, but the opera
are not looking to discontinue what we might call. It's
funny to be talking about traditional audio description, given the
short time it's been around, but nobody's talking about not
delivering the traditional audio description. This is another option for
those who want it, but Brad might want to see

(07:37):
more in a second. But, uh, I'll say something first. Um,
as usual, he's used to that. Um, so the audio
description written and or recorded can be added to this.
So to the system. So again, it means that any night, uh,

(08:00):
that or afternoon actually any, any performance, um, can have
audio description and the Braille subtitles. So you don't need
to wait for the audio described night. It could be run.
Yeah a great point. Every performance time. Brad, you might
want to say something. No, I'll let you in.

S3 (08:17):
Thanks, Paul. I am the way that that we develop
the technology. Was that the idea that you could have
any what we call asset, any asset on any device.
So you can have recorded audio for deaf sighted people.
You could have sign language video aligned with the text
and the sung text. The idea is that this technology

(08:40):
is pushing out loads of assets at once of different
kinds all simultaneously. So, as Paul says, you could choose
to have audio description experienced as text, or you could
choose to have it experienced as audio alongside without conflicting
with Braille subtitles, subtitles. So it's a really exciting, kind

(09:02):
of multifactorial experience where you can mix and match the
elements that you want to experience alongside the music. And
that for us, is really goes to the heart of
why we built it. We didn't want blind, low vision, deaf, um,
accessibility issues to be corralled to one performance out of
a long run of performances. Why can't everyone experience this

(09:25):
every show? Well, we've shown that there's no reason why not.
It's just pumped out as part of our normal surtitle technology.
But we're serving all these additional bits of content at
the same time. So it's a win win for us.
It doesn't cost us anything more, but we get so
much more richness of experience for everyone.

S4 (09:41):
And if nobody turns up, nobody gets upset. Yeah, yeah.
I don't mean if no audience, I mean have no
blind people turn up, you know? Yeah, nobody gets upset
because it's just a standard part of what's offered.

S2 (09:53):
A blueprint there. Have you had much interest from elsewhere?
I'd obviously where contacting you from Australia, but have you
had much interest from elsewhere?

S3 (10:01):
It has been insane. It's gone. Gangbusters. We were very
lucky to have the interview that Paul gave to the Guardian, uh,
run by our fantastic NZ opera PR woman, Vanessa. She's
been indefatigable in getting, uh, press attention for this. She asked. Yes.

S4 (10:17):
I mean, we'd done a stint the.

S3 (10:20):
Biggest, the biggest opera houses in the world have all
been in touch with me. Wow. Oh, so it's fantastic.
And this is, you know, this is little New Zealand
doing something fantastically well for the first time, and everyone
else wants a piece of it. So for for where
we are and Aotearoa, it's just thrilling to be at
the forefront of something that seems to have met a

(10:40):
real moment of need and excitement.

S4 (10:43):
And just by serendipity, the the day that the opera
had its opening and the first time we had the
Braille surtitles, the ICB International Council on English Braille Conference
was meeting here in Auckland. And so Brad presented to
that conference and it was amazing. So he set this going.

(11:05):
We set our hit the link and set our Braille
devices up. And we were reading under our fingers at
moving by itself. I can a summary of what he
was talking about to show everyone how it worked. So
we've got some real interest from blindness organisations, uh, to
the Rnib. Uh, I know certainly have been in touch.

(11:28):
And there are others who are really, really interested, um, for,
you know, for a whole host of things.

S3 (11:36):
We see massive application for all of this tech in
any environment where there isn't an existing script or, say
in sports scores, where, where there is text, but that's
pushed live. This is what this is built for. It
doesn't it's not designed to work with voice recognition or
automatic transcription or anything like that. We don't think that's

(11:56):
its unique point of interest. What we're really working with
is existing text content, which up to now has been
inaccessible to Braille and low vision users.

S2 (12:06):
What was the opera for those opera buffs that might
want to know?

S3 (12:09):
Well, they'd have to be pretty Buffy to know this one.
It's an obscure opera by Rossini called La Country. He
wrote it the year before he wrote William Tell, which
everyone knows the overture to. But it's a it's a
kind of French farce set in the Middle Ages and involving, um,
disguised nuns, three in a bed, romps, ah, you name it,
it's got it going on.

S4 (12:29):
This one wasn't set in France, so this one was
set in the North shore of Auckland, wasn't it? It was.

S3 (12:36):
Set in the South Island of Aotearoa in was.

S4 (12:38):
It Southland. Well, Glenorchy sorting out.

S2 (12:40):
Sounds like quite the event. Uh, Paul, just quickly because
we're out of time. So you're reading it in Braille.
But for example, if you're reading it, um, using uh,
a device that had screen out I. Sorry. Voice output. Yep. Yeah.
Having voice over as well or.

S5 (12:55):
Yes, you could listen to it. You could listen.

S4 (12:57):
Voiceover. Uh yep. Yeah you could. For those that don't
read Braille, you could listen to it with voiceover. I
think you'd have to put headphones in at the opera.
You might get a telling off from other folk in
the audience, but yes, you could. Yes.

S2 (13:11):
And Brad, as you leave us, I mean, this was
the first time there's going to be more times by
the hour. This is just the beginning.

S3 (13:16):
Well, we're committed to it at New Zealand Opera. We're
going to offer this from now on for every performance.
It's we're totally committed to it. It's really now about
uptake by the rest of the world. That's what we're
excited about.

S2 (13:26):
Well, congratulations to both of you. And I said to Frances,
Vanessa and Nicole, they've also been very instrumental in getting
us to where we are. Absolutely. So so big. Thank
you to Philip Vandepeer, one of our, uh, co-founders of
this program, who also spotted the story. So it's been
a real team effort. It's been a delight speaking to
you both. And I've got to say, I love both
your accents, but Paul. Yours.

S4 (13:50):
Do I have an accent? It's so thoughtful.

S3 (13:52):
No, you don't know.

S5 (13:54):
Someone must be.

S2 (13:56):
What must be? My ears.

S5 (13:58):
Must be. Thanks, Peter. Great to talk to you. Oh,
that was brilliant.

S2 (14:02):
That was Brad Colin, their general director for New Zealand Opera,
and Paul Brown from audio described Aotearoa Truth about an
opera for the first time there was presented for people
blind or low vision on a refreshable braille display.

S6 (14:19):
Thank you for listening to Vision Xtra with Peter Greco.
You can find this interview on the Focal Point podcast.
This show was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio.