July 27, 2023 • 27 mins
Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni came to power with a string of superlatives. She’s the country’s first female prime minister, and she’s brought in the most right-wing government in decades. Now, nine months into her term, she faces a series of tests: on China, the war in Ukraine and a looming EU recession. Bloomberg’s Chiara Albanese and Alessandra Migliaccio join guest host Rosalind Mathieson to talk about Meloni’s rise to power and where she plans to take Italy next.
Read more: Giorgia Meloni Seeks to Cement Power by Remaking Corporate Italy
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sale Bloom.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
That's our producer.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Federica Romanello asking people in Italy what they think about
their prime minister, Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 4 (00:12):
Maloney a person, She's intelligent, and it's troubled to me.
She's not the best premier.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There's better out of there.
Speaker 5 (00:22):
George Maloney is currently doing positive things that I'm interested
in on a social list.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm not in favor of her ideology. I don't really
get along with it. An excellent choice.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Last autumn, after forming a coalition with other right wing
parties and then winning the majority of the vote in
a general election, Georgia Maloney became the new Prime Minister
of Italy.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
Italy has sworn in its first female prime minister, and
in doing so, the most right wing government the country
has seen in decades.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
She came to power after twenty months of Mario Draghi's government,
At a time when Italy was preoccupied with issues that
worried the entire continent.
Speaker 7 (01:02):
The Russian President Vladimir Putin authorized a special military operation.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Electricity bills are sorry, gas reserves are depleting, and winter
is coming.
Speaker 7 (01:12):
The Eurozone is almost certain to enter a recession.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Many still associate Georgia Maloney with the politician that a
few years ago shouted on stage at a rally.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm Georgia.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I'm a woman, I'm a mother, I'm Italian, I'm a Christian.
You won't take that away from me. But nine months
into her government, she's proving to be somewhat more moderate
in her policies than many expected her to be.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
She still has her ideas, but she's playing the moderate
on things that are important, and so she might last
quite a long time.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's Bloomberg's Alessandro Miacco and together with Kiera Albanese, they
joined me from Rome to talk about Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
A head of a visit to the White House.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So the key question is will this meeting be a
promotion and enough of me for Italy? Looking ahead?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I'm Roslin Matheson in for Wes Kasova today on The
Big Take. As Joe Biden welcomes Georgia Maloney in Washington,
we take a close look at the Italian Prime Minister's politics.
(02:28):
Georgia Maloney is really one of those highly intriguing leaders,
a person where there's a lot of things people know
about her or think they know about her, and a
lot of presumptions about her, sort of baked in narratives
that have been around for a long time. So I'd
like to just start by talking a bit about her
background and what drives her and how she went from
being somewhat on the fringes of Italian politics to being
(02:50):
Prime minister. Kiara, can you lay the table a bit
about what we know about Maloney in her background?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Georgia Maloney is a fascinating political figure. She's not a fascist.
She is a politician by career. She started her political
career where she was just in her teens. She just
joined a local branch of a far right party and
since then she's never stopped. She is a lot of.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Firsts as well.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
She is the first female prime minister in Italy. She
is also the first far right prime minister in Italy,
and she is leading a coalition of very vocal partners,
including for example Matteo Salvini, but she is clearly dominating
them and calling the shots. So she is somehow a
(03:39):
descendant from the Mussolini heritage, but after a long series
of generations and changes, and during those changes also her
ideology has changed a lot. She is not preaching for
Italy to get out of the Eurozone. She is a
pro NATO, pro Ukraine supporters, got very traditional ideas, for
(04:01):
example when it comes to civil rights, to how a
family should be formed. But she does not want to
rock the boat or just change Italy from the foundations.
She doesn't want to change the fundamental framework of the institutions.
And this is basically a mix of her background and
also an adaptation of what it means to lead the
(04:24):
third biggest Eurozone economy.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And I'm curious, Alessandra your thoughts about this because Kiara
talked about how Mileney's ideology has changed over the years,
at least what she's saying. But do you see also
that ideology of hers has become less sharp? And is
that the idea when you think about leaders elsewhere like
in France you're in La pan for example, has sort
(04:52):
of refined her narrative over the years, turn away become
more palatable to a broad population.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Do you see parallels there?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yes, I do, and I actually think Malone's moving more
to the center than Marine La Penn. Basically, I think
Maloney's seen her opportunity. She's saying that she can become
the new conservative right, and because well now recently seely
Brusconi has died, so we don't have ber Lusconi's I
guess you could call it center right party. You do
(05:21):
have Matteo Salvini, who is the leader of the League party,
who is very far right. Very soon there will be
European elections, and we can see her trying to move
not with the far right party within Europe, but she's
trying to be on board with the center right. She
wants to be with the relatively moderate right. So I
think she's seen that she can hold power for many,
(05:43):
many years if she uses different words, presents herself differently,
and particularly on economic policy and such things, she doesn't
rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
When she came in, there were all these, in a
way sort of narratives and conceptions about her and ideas
of how she'd go as prime minister.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Much all of this has surprised you, Alessandra.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I was a bit surprised because I did believe that
she was fundamentally an heir of that party. But then
I saw pretty quickly that she plans to stay as
long as possible, and she's not going to do anything crazy,
as we said, to rock the vote too much. I
think she was also as far as economic policy is concerned.
You know, she followed Dragi and she saw how that
his government, Mario Draghi, who had a technical government before Maloney,
(06:26):
gave stability. She realized that she wanted to aim for
that stability. But she has more power really because she
has the vote behind her. I was surprised at how
quickly she sort of managed to transform herself. But then again,
she's someone who's been in politics since she was sixteen,
so she does have that experience. She still has her ideas,
(06:47):
but she's playing the moderate on things that are important,
and so she might last quite a long time.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Well, let's talk about that jeriability question, Kiara. Are we
seeing an unusual period of stability in Italian politics? Is
Maloney potentially able to see out a term and even beyond.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
In Italy, government on average last just over a year.
Italy has had about seventy governments after the Second World War,
and so you can just easily guess how instable our
political system is now. Georgia Maloney could be the first
person that lasts as Prime Minister the full term, which
(07:28):
is five years. There is no political position to her,
so the left of the moment is basically divided and
slightly lost. The parties that are in government with her
have no incentive to create any issues and threaten the stability,
so she is stable. But ross I remember a conversation
(07:49):
we had in Rome over a good coffee, and during
that conversation that we had, I told you in Italy
you never know when a government crisis starts. It can
happen unexpectedly.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Kiara, let's talk a bit more about expectations versus reality.
We've sort of talked about what would some of the
preconceived ideas about her going too this administration. We've talked
about the possibility she may be the first leader in
a while to really last a full term in Italy.
But how would you describe it so far for her
in terms of expectations versus reality.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Look, ross I have to say that expectations have very
much met reality. She pledged to remain very loyal to
the United States policies and to not turn her back
on Ukraine, and she has done so. At the same time,
the expectations was that she was not going to change
(08:45):
too much Italy's position within the European Union. These expectations
has also been met and also expectations that she was
going to change slightly social policies. Those happened as well,
and this is the area in which she is showing
her more far right ideas.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
The Italian government earns has recently approved a bill that
will criminalize sarrogacy for all the citizens in the country.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
As well as abroad.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
On Alessandra, you've talked about sort of recent events, including
the death of Silvio Berlosconi. Oversee a giant in Italian politics,
a controversial giant, but one nonetheless.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has passed away at
the age of eighty six, self described as if Jesus
Christ of politics is legacy is complicated to say the least.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
How does this fit into things for Georgia Maloney? Does
his death make her arguably more powerful in Italian politics?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Certainly his death leaves a vacuum. Where those votes go
and where those are members of Parliament, those unions politicians
go is very, very important. It's hard to say exactly
what will happen. Initially, the idea was that probably, you know,
they would sort of spread out, some going towards Georgia Miloney,
some towards Matteo Salvini, tensions can increase. So as we
(10:10):
move away, you know, from the moment of Berlus Corne's death,
we're moving into a free for all and a fight
for power, and it's a little bit hard to say
what will happen next from that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Point of view.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
How much is the economy on her side in this, Alessandro,
We've talked a bit about the stability there and that
being a key.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Question for her first start.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
It is the third biggest economy in Europe, so it
matters not just for Italy but for Europe and beyond.
Is that why we should care really about Italy beyond
sort of its borders.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Well, definitely why we should care because it is this
very big economy. It's a member of the G seven
in Europe. It has a lot of weight a lot
of people. When you talk about the finance bits, you know,
they say it's too big to fail because if something
really bad happens to the Italian economy, the other European
economies have to follow because, first of all, Germany and
France are the biggest trading partner, so anything that really
(11:04):
goes wrong in Italy would create problems for their economies,
but also the European Union. If Italy somehow exits or
something really awful happens, wouldn't be sustainable probably without a
country of its size we're talking about. Although the population
is shrinking, it's almost sixty million people, so it is
also one of the largest countries and a very big economy.
The Italian economy is relatively weak. That's a big problem.
(11:27):
It's always sort of on the verge of disaster and
then never happens. But one of the problems is Italy's
huge debt. It's a debt that was accumulated in the
nineteen eighties. There's a long story behind this debt, but
it's very, very big. It's beyond one hundred and forty
percent of a gross domestic product, and that means that
Italy has trouble improving its economy because you know, how
(11:48):
do you reform, how do you invest if you're busy
paying off your debt, which is gigantic. Things are looking
up for her so far, investors think she's relatively stable.
But the problem is, you know, anytime Italian bombs become
more expensive for the government, then the debt becomes almost unsustainable,
and that's a big deal. Europe should care because you know,
(12:09):
a lot of Italian bonds are in banks all over
the world and all over Europe. So there are a
lot of reasons why Italian stability is important to its
allies and beyond.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Coming up a closer look at Georgia Maloney's politics and
what it means for the Italian and global economy, let's
talk more about Georgia Maloney's policies and actions so far, Kiara,
we heard earlier about a bill to criminalize Saragasei, but
(12:41):
what other proposals has the Italian Prime minister put forward
so far When it comes to changes to civil liberties.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Civil liberties are definitely one of the areas in which
she has got more freedom to act in Italy. There
are some gray areas when it comes to those civil rights,
where it is easier for a government to just step
in and implement some views. Her government has been quite
strict and taken a hardline against same sex families. In
(13:10):
the past. Many from the ruling party have openly discriminated
against the group. Some have called gay couples illegal, others
have took part in anti LGBTQ matches. We have seen
that just a few months ago, the Interior Ministry asked
local municipalities to stop registering new certificates with same sex parents.
(13:31):
And this is one of the areas in which there
is no clear law, so her government is not changing below,
she's just interpreting the law in the most right wing
and conservative way. Poles are showing that Italians are highly
divided on this matter, but they're also very confused because
it's very hard to explain in a neutral and non
(13:53):
politicized way how surrogacy works, how civil rights work. Is
a technical, etique complicated issue in which usually a lot
of the decisions are left to the medical field and
not to a government. So Italians are confused somehow. They
like the idea of traditional families, you know, a married
(14:14):
man and woman, but at the same time, the Italian
society is evolving quickly and familists that do not follow
a traditional pattern, single parents, people that never married or divorced,
they don't have an issue in Italy or an Italian society.
They don't face any sort of differentiation or different treatment.
So Malone is gambling a bit here with the electorate
(14:37):
because it's not really clear that her policies are going
to be reflected in more consensus for her party.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Moving onto the economy, Alessandra, you were talking earlier about
how Georgia Maloney doesn't really seem to have big problems
at the moment with investors, But is Italy still a
cause for fiscal concern because you know, the EE Recovery
Fund is coming back onto the table and our listeners,
of course, that's the multi billion euro recovery instrument. It
was temporary and designed to support economies in the EU
(15:07):
following the coronavirus pandemic, and we're going to hear a
lot more talk in Europe about fiscal matters as a result.
So I'm curious is Italy going to get tangled up
in that again?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Italy is a country that has some serious issues. We
were talking about debt. The debt is very, very high,
very hard to control. Right now. Europe, you know, is
in the process of renegotiating how fiscal rules will be
in the future. Now that the crisis of COVID is
over and the energy crisis is over. What are European
countries going to do about deciding how to manage their
(15:38):
fiscal policy? And Miloney is making some noises and she's
sort of saying, yes, well, you know, you should consider
each separate country differently depending on their situation. That clearly
means she wants some leeway, she wants some fiscal leeway.
She wants to be able to spend to reward her electorate.
It's still, you know, early days, they're still negotiating on
(15:59):
the stability packed, but there will be some trouble there.
And on the other hand, you mentioned the recovery fund.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
European leaders have agreed on a landmark stimulus package that
will see the block issue seven hundred and fifty billion
euros of joint debt.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Italy was basically offered over one hundred and ninety billion
euros and that is incredible. That is almost like a
Marshall plan. It's it's something Italy's never seen because with
the kind of debt it has, it doesn't have that
kind of money to spend on bettering infrastructure, schools, green energy.
So if they are not able to use recovery funds
(16:37):
properly or quickly enough, that's truly tragic. You know, it
will look bad to their European partners who have put
up the money, and it will mean a huge lost opportunity.
But we know at the same time that Italy is
very good at, you know, losing opportunities. They've not been
able to spend money in the past, so that is
a very very big challenge for Maloney and I think
(16:57):
markets they're waiting still, but they made judge her on
that one.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Every few years it rolls around this idea again that
countries in Europe start to say, well, we should consider
our individual circumstances and all this when we're talking about fiscal.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Matters as a whole.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But also there sort has seemed to be some emerging
tensions with the ECB, the European Central Bank. We're starting
to see some nascent stuff around that.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
The European Central Bank in the last few moments has
raised its main policy rate by quarter of one percent.
That takes its main deposit rate from three percent two
three and a quarter percent.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
How much of a deal is that really for Italy?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
It is a very big deal. There's two issues. One
is the reality, which is that obviously as rates increase,
it's a problem for Italy because it becomes harder to
manage its debt it's more expensive. And then there's the
part that's internal. She has to show a little bit
that she's still Milney, so she's still someone who can
stand up to Europe, someone who can complain when it's
(17:56):
time and put Italy first, because pac Italian governments were
very collaborative. But Miloney's on this platform of Italy first,
Italy first, Italy first, and the ECB is one place
where she can show that she's banging her fists. Now
whether in reality that actually matters not so much, because
if inflation remains high, the ECB is not doing it
to punish Italy or the other countries like Spain and Greece.
(18:18):
The ECB is doing it to keep inflation down.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Alessandra, you mentioned this idea of Italy first, and with
this Georgia Maloney is sort of getting her fingers a
bit into state control companies and this idea of protecting
Italian businesses and industries.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Top of Prime Minister of Georgia Meloney's Italy First agenda
is a creation of national champions in areas from energy
to fashion and luxury and a sovereign wealth fund.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
When you look at key state assets, you've got the
lights of the energy giants Ennel and Any and defense
company Leonardo. They all recently underwent a bit of a
changing of the guard with new CEOs coming in and
as a result, Maloney's gotten involved because the government is
one of the key shareholders and all those companies. Can
you talk a bit about what her intentions are when
(19:03):
it comes to the state sector in Italy.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
She came in when all these posts were up for
renewal and it happens about every three years, so she's
been quite fortunate. These are very very big state controlled companies,
big companies that really matter, and she gets to put
her people in and that means that even if and
when the government should fall, she will have people that
have her worldview, so a more nationalist, a more if
(19:27):
we want to call it Italy first worldview in those spots,
and that won't change for at least three years. And
that really matters, you know, because this is like the
elite of the stock exchange first of all, and people
who are influencing all kinds of decisions, from energy policy
to also how we deal in relations with other companies
out there. I mean E and I for a long
(19:48):
time was called, you know, the true Foreign Ministry because
it's so active all over the world with its oil
and gas interests that it's almost more efficient, some say,
than the Italian foreign ministry. Her message is typically nationalist.
She is not going to just collaborate and play nice.
She wants Italian interest protected, and she also wants things
(20:09):
like more influence for Italy in its backyard, which is
really unusual. Italy has not done that since fascism. For example,
she wants more influence in the Mediterranean.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
There is one area polici area where she has struck
a bit of trouble, and that's on China Kiara. Italy
was sort of one of the few nations or large
nations that signed a proper agreement with China on its
Belton Road trade and investment programming. And you can see
her so slightly trying to reverse out of that a bit.
But she can't reverse all the way out because Italy
does still need to maintain trade investment ties with China.
(20:43):
How is she juggling all of that and what kind
of peril do you see for her in.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
That all eyes are on Meloni just because she has
to make a public announcement by the end of the year.
She will have to say publicly either yes or no
to the Belton Road saying no could just really irritate
Beijing with possible retaliation.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
The Italian government is reportedly close to pulling out of
China's Built and Road initiative. Prime Minister Georgia Maloney says
Rome's further involvement in Chi Jing King's global trade network
is up the debate.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
There is a lot of pressure from the US and DEAD,
but at the same time she wants to find a
way not to really blow it into China's face.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
After the break, what can we expect from the Italian
leader's visit to Washington, DC? Before we take a closer
look at Georgia Maloney's relationship with Joe Biden. A head
of their meeting at the White House, I wanted to
(21:48):
talk about some of the Italian Prime Minister's key relationships
with foreign leaders. One that's emerged as being exceptionally fraud
it's her relationship with the French President Emanuel Macron. Can
you talk a bit about what's behind the tensions between
Maloney and Macron.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
I mean, they generally don't really like each other as
kind of distinctively as people. For Macron, Melonie is a
sort of nemesis. She is associated to Marine Lapen, even
if Alexander was saying, they are really different political figures.
So for Macron is really hard to be seen domestically
(22:26):
with Malone to be hosting her.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
In the first official meeting outside of international summits. Emanuel
Macart welcome Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
To the and this is contributing to the clash and
the competition between the two of them. Meloney is just
coming after Dragi and Dragi and Macron were really close.
They were friends, they were like on a really good
personal relationship for years, even before Dragi became Prime minister.
So you know, it was hard for anyone to follow
(22:58):
Mari Draghi in lee relations with France.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Well, you talked about instinctive relationship, the instinctive dislike that
they seem to have for each other. I'm talking about
Maloney and Macron. But Alessandra one area where she seems
to have an instinctive friendship, a very strong rapport, a
connection is with the US President Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
President Biden met with Italian Prime Minister Georgia Maloney for
the first time today.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
The two leaders spoke during a closed door meeting at
the G twenty summit in Bali.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
We saw that almost sort of affectionate comments with each
other at the recent G seven summit where they're both
in Hiroshima. We've seen it elsewhere, but there does seem
to be a natural rapport with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
What's your perception of that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It has a lot to do with Malonney's positioning herself
as a really faithful ally of the US, and that's
what she wants to convey, and she is sort of
taking up what was once the center rights position. You know,
historically Italy after World War Two wanted to be the
best possible ally for the US. Lots of things have
happened since then, and there have been other positions, but
(24:04):
I think Maloney really wants to prove herself. So it's
her really courting, if we could say, Biden, you know,
wanting to show she really is going to be a
great ally and hoping as well. It's sort of typical
historically of the Italian right to want contracts with the
US and go in that direction. Every time we've had
a right wing government, the companies have done more business
with the United States.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Kiara, looking ahead to the meeting between Joe Biden and
Georgia Maloney what are some of the things we should
be expecting from that.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
There is a lot of expectation from the Italian side
of how important it is to be hosted at the
White House. So the key question that we want to
see out of that meeting is that will Georgia Meloney
be somehow promoted to first tier leader? Will she still
remain somehow on the fringes when it comes to the
(24:56):
decision making in Europe. We have seen that she has
a really good relation with Joe Biden. They've been hugging
and smiling and praising each other a lot. But when
it comes to the key calls in which for example,
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is discussed, military support to Ukraine
is discussed, or key financial decisions, well she has been
(25:18):
somehow left out, not because of her, but also because
Italy is the third biggest European economy but is still
kind of a smaller country when it comes to the
global stage. So the key question is will this meeting
be a promotion and an affirmation for Italy looking ahead?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And what would that look like.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
What should we interpret as science that that's actually happening.
What's it tangible that she could come away with.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I think a tangible will be some statements of US support,
for example on the G seven that Italy will host
next year. Or also we will look out for, for example,
invitations of Meloney in key calls ahead or just stronger
cooperation between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And is there any room for tension?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I really see tension potentially on the discussion on China.
The US is really waiting for some signs that Italy
will pull out of the Belton Road initiative. So the
question is like, will Meloney really make a move this time?
A will is she continued to take time? I could
see some tension and possibly some statement by Biden that
(26:28):
will force her to take a line.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Kieren Alessandra, thank you very much for joining me today.
Thank you thanks for listening to us here at The
Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.
For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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Email us with questions or comments to Big Take at
(26:53):
Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take
is Vicki Virgolina as Senior producer is Catherine Fink. Frederica
Romanello is our producer. Our associate producer is Zena Abzidiki.
Hilde Garcia is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin.
I'm Roslin Matheson in for wes Kosova. We'll be back
(27:15):
tomorrow with another big take.
Sale Bloom.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
That's our producer.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Federica Romanello asking people in Italy what they think about
their prime minister, Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 4 (00:12):
Maloney a person, She's intelligent, and it's troubled to me.
She's not the best premier.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There's better out of there.
Speaker 5 (00:22):
George Maloney is currently doing positive things that I'm interested
in on a social list.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm not in favor of her ideology. I don't really
get along with it. An excellent choice.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Last autumn, after forming a coalition with other right wing
parties and then winning the majority of the vote in
a general election, Georgia Maloney became the new Prime Minister
of Italy.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
Italy has sworn in its first female prime minister, and
in doing so, the most right wing government the country
has seen in decades.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
She came to power after twenty months of Mario Draghi's government,
At a time when Italy was preoccupied with issues that
worried the entire continent.
Speaker 7 (01:02):
The Russian President Vladimir Putin authorized a special military operation.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Electricity bills are sorry, gas reserves are depleting, and winter
is coming.
Speaker 7 (01:12):
The Eurozone is almost certain to enter a recession.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Many still associate Georgia Maloney with the politician that a
few years ago shouted on stage at a rally.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm Georgia.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I'm a woman, I'm a mother, I'm Italian, I'm a Christian.
You won't take that away from me. But nine months
into her government, she's proving to be somewhat more moderate
in her policies than many expected her to be.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
She still has her ideas, but she's playing the moderate
on things that are important, and so she might last
quite a long time.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's Bloomberg's Alessandro Miacco and together with Kiera Albanese, they
joined me from Rome to talk about Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
A head of a visit to the White House.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So the key question is will this meeting be a
promotion and enough of me for Italy? Looking ahead?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I'm Roslin Matheson in for Wes Kasova today on The
Big Take. As Joe Biden welcomes Georgia Maloney in Washington,
we take a close look at the Italian Prime Minister's politics.
(02:28):
Georgia Maloney is really one of those highly intriguing leaders,
a person where there's a lot of things people know
about her or think they know about her, and a
lot of presumptions about her, sort of baked in narratives
that have been around for a long time. So I'd
like to just start by talking a bit about her
background and what drives her and how she went from
being somewhat on the fringes of Italian politics to being
(02:50):
Prime minister. Kiara, can you lay the table a bit
about what we know about Maloney in her background?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Georgia Maloney is a fascinating political figure. She's not a fascist.
She is a politician by career. She started her political
career where she was just in her teens. She just
joined a local branch of a far right party and
since then she's never stopped. She is a lot of.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Firsts as well.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
She is the first female prime minister in Italy. She
is also the first far right prime minister in Italy,
and she is leading a coalition of very vocal partners,
including for example Matteo Salvini, but she is clearly dominating
them and calling the shots. So she is somehow a
(03:39):
descendant from the Mussolini heritage, but after a long series
of generations and changes, and during those changes also her
ideology has changed a lot. She is not preaching for
Italy to get out of the Eurozone. She is a
pro NATO, pro Ukraine supporters, got very traditional ideas, for
(04:01):
example when it comes to civil rights, to how a
family should be formed. But she does not want to
rock the boat or just change Italy from the foundations.
She doesn't want to change the fundamental framework of the institutions.
And this is basically a mix of her background and
also an adaptation of what it means to lead the
(04:24):
third biggest Eurozone economy.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And I'm curious, Alessandra your thoughts about this because Kiara
talked about how Mileney's ideology has changed over the years,
at least what she's saying. But do you see also
that ideology of hers has become less sharp? And is
that the idea when you think about leaders elsewhere like
in France you're in La pan for example, has sort
(04:52):
of refined her narrative over the years, turn away become
more palatable to a broad population.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Do you see parallels there?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yes, I do, and I actually think Malone's moving more
to the center than Marine La Penn. Basically, I think
Maloney's seen her opportunity. She's saying that she can become
the new conservative right, and because well now recently seely
Brusconi has died, so we don't have ber Lusconi's I
guess you could call it center right party. You do
(05:21):
have Matteo Salvini, who is the leader of the League party,
who is very far right. Very soon there will be
European elections, and we can see her trying to move
not with the far right party within Europe, but she's
trying to be on board with the center right. She
wants to be with the relatively moderate right. So I
think she's seen that she can hold power for many,
(05:43):
many years if she uses different words, presents herself differently,
and particularly on economic policy and such things, she doesn't
rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
When she came in, there were all these, in a
way sort of narratives and conceptions about her and ideas
of how she'd go as prime minister.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Much all of this has surprised you, Alessandra.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I was a bit surprised because I did believe that
she was fundamentally an heir of that party. But then
I saw pretty quickly that she plans to stay as
long as possible, and she's not going to do anything crazy,
as we said, to rock the vote too much. I
think she was also as far as economic policy is concerned.
You know, she followed Dragi and she saw how that
his government, Mario Draghi, who had a technical government before Maloney,
(06:26):
gave stability. She realized that she wanted to aim for
that stability. But she has more power really because she
has the vote behind her. I was surprised at how
quickly she sort of managed to transform herself. But then again,
she's someone who's been in politics since she was sixteen,
so she does have that experience. She still has her ideas,
(06:47):
but she's playing the moderate on things that are important,
and so she might last quite a long time.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Well, let's talk about that jeriability question, Kiara. Are we
seeing an unusual period of stability in Italian politics? Is
Maloney potentially able to see out a term and even beyond.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
In Italy, government on average last just over a year.
Italy has had about seventy governments after the Second World War,
and so you can just easily guess how instable our
political system is now. Georgia Maloney could be the first
person that lasts as Prime Minister the full term, which
(07:28):
is five years. There is no political position to her,
so the left of the moment is basically divided and
slightly lost. The parties that are in government with her
have no incentive to create any issues and threaten the stability,
so she is stable. But ross I remember a conversation
(07:49):
we had in Rome over a good coffee, and during
that conversation that we had, I told you in Italy
you never know when a government crisis starts. It can
happen unexpectedly.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Kiara, let's talk a bit more about expectations versus reality.
We've sort of talked about what would some of the
preconceived ideas about her going too this administration. We've talked
about the possibility she may be the first leader in
a while to really last a full term in Italy.
But how would you describe it so far for her
in terms of expectations versus reality.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Look, ross I have to say that expectations have very
much met reality. She pledged to remain very loyal to
the United States policies and to not turn her back
on Ukraine, and she has done so. At the same time,
the expectations was that she was not going to change
(08:45):
too much Italy's position within the European Union. These expectations
has also been met and also expectations that she was
going to change slightly social policies. Those happened as well,
and this is the area in which she is showing
her more far right ideas.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
The Italian government earns has recently approved a bill that
will criminalize sarrogacy for all the citizens in the country.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
As well as abroad.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
On Alessandra, you've talked about sort of recent events, including
the death of Silvio Berlosconi. Oversee a giant in Italian politics,
a controversial giant, but one nonetheless.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has passed away at
the age of eighty six, self described as if Jesus
Christ of politics is legacy is complicated to say the least.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
How does this fit into things for Georgia Maloney? Does
his death make her arguably more powerful in Italian politics?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Certainly his death leaves a vacuum. Where those votes go
and where those are members of Parliament, those unions politicians
go is very, very important. It's hard to say exactly
what will happen. Initially, the idea was that probably, you know,
they would sort of spread out, some going towards Georgia Miloney,
some towards Matteo Salvini, tensions can increase. So as we
(10:10):
move away, you know, from the moment of Berlus Corne's death,
we're moving into a free for all and a fight
for power, and it's a little bit hard to say
what will happen next from that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Point of view.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
How much is the economy on her side in this, Alessandro,
We've talked a bit about the stability there and that
being a key.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Question for her first start.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
It is the third biggest economy in Europe, so it
matters not just for Italy but for Europe and beyond.
Is that why we should care really about Italy beyond
sort of its borders.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Well, definitely why we should care because it is this
very big economy. It's a member of the G seven
in Europe. It has a lot of weight a lot
of people. When you talk about the finance bits, you know,
they say it's too big to fail because if something
really bad happens to the Italian economy, the other European
economies have to follow because, first of all, Germany and
France are the biggest trading partner, so anything that really
(11:04):
goes wrong in Italy would create problems for their economies,
but also the European Union. If Italy somehow exits or
something really awful happens, wouldn't be sustainable probably without a
country of its size we're talking about. Although the population
is shrinking, it's almost sixty million people, so it is
also one of the largest countries and a very big economy.
The Italian economy is relatively weak. That's a big problem.
(11:27):
It's always sort of on the verge of disaster and
then never happens. But one of the problems is Italy's
huge debt. It's a debt that was accumulated in the
nineteen eighties. There's a long story behind this debt, but
it's very, very big. It's beyond one hundred and forty
percent of a gross domestic product, and that means that
Italy has trouble improving its economy because you know, how
(11:48):
do you reform, how do you invest if you're busy
paying off your debt, which is gigantic. Things are looking
up for her so far, investors think she's relatively stable.
But the problem is, you know, anytime Italian bombs become
more expensive for the government, then the debt becomes almost unsustainable,
and that's a big deal. Europe should care because you know,
(12:09):
a lot of Italian bonds are in banks all over
the world and all over Europe. So there are a
lot of reasons why Italian stability is important to its
allies and beyond.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Coming up a closer look at Georgia Maloney's politics and
what it means for the Italian and global economy, let's
talk more about Georgia Maloney's policies and actions so far, Kiara,
we heard earlier about a bill to criminalize Saragasei, but
(12:41):
what other proposals has the Italian Prime minister put forward
so far When it comes to changes to civil liberties.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Civil liberties are definitely one of the areas in which
she has got more freedom to act in Italy. There
are some gray areas when it comes to those civil rights,
where it is easier for a government to just step
in and implement some views. Her government has been quite
strict and taken a hardline against same sex families. In
(13:10):
the past. Many from the ruling party have openly discriminated
against the group. Some have called gay couples illegal, others
have took part in anti LGBTQ matches. We have seen
that just a few months ago, the Interior Ministry asked
local municipalities to stop registering new certificates with same sex parents.
(13:31):
And this is one of the areas in which there
is no clear law, so her government is not changing below,
she's just interpreting the law in the most right wing
and conservative way. Poles are showing that Italians are highly
divided on this matter, but they're also very confused because
it's very hard to explain in a neutral and non
(13:53):
politicized way how surrogacy works, how civil rights work. Is
a technical, etique complicated issue in which usually a lot
of the decisions are left to the medical field and
not to a government. So Italians are confused somehow. They
like the idea of traditional families, you know, a married
(14:14):
man and woman, but at the same time, the Italian
society is evolving quickly and familists that do not follow
a traditional pattern, single parents, people that never married or divorced,
they don't have an issue in Italy or an Italian society.
They don't face any sort of differentiation or different treatment.
So Malone is gambling a bit here with the electorate
(14:37):
because it's not really clear that her policies are going
to be reflected in more consensus for her party.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Moving onto the economy, Alessandra, you were talking earlier about
how Georgia Maloney doesn't really seem to have big problems
at the moment with investors, But is Italy still a
cause for fiscal concern because you know, the EE Recovery
Fund is coming back onto the table and our listeners,
of course, that's the multi billion euro recovery instrument. It
was temporary and designed to support economies in the EU
(15:07):
following the coronavirus pandemic, and we're going to hear a
lot more talk in Europe about fiscal matters as a result.
So I'm curious is Italy going to get tangled up
in that again?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Italy is a country that has some serious issues. We
were talking about debt. The debt is very, very high,
very hard to control. Right now. Europe, you know, is
in the process of renegotiating how fiscal rules will be
in the future. Now that the crisis of COVID is
over and the energy crisis is over. What are European
countries going to do about deciding how to manage their
(15:38):
fiscal policy? And Miloney is making some noises and she's
sort of saying, yes, well, you know, you should consider
each separate country differently depending on their situation. That clearly
means she wants some leeway, she wants some fiscal leeway.
She wants to be able to spend to reward her electorate.
It's still, you know, early days, they're still negotiating on
(15:59):
the stability packed, but there will be some trouble there.
And on the other hand, you mentioned the recovery fund.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
European leaders have agreed on a landmark stimulus package that
will see the block issue seven hundred and fifty billion
euros of joint debt.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Italy was basically offered over one hundred and ninety billion
euros and that is incredible. That is almost like a
Marshall plan. It's it's something Italy's never seen because with
the kind of debt it has, it doesn't have that
kind of money to spend on bettering infrastructure, schools, green energy.
So if they are not able to use recovery funds
(16:37):
properly or quickly enough, that's truly tragic. You know, it
will look bad to their European partners who have put
up the money, and it will mean a huge lost opportunity.
But we know at the same time that Italy is
very good at, you know, losing opportunities. They've not been
able to spend money in the past, so that is
a very very big challenge for Maloney and I think
(16:57):
markets they're waiting still, but they made judge her on
that one.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Every few years it rolls around this idea again that
countries in Europe start to say, well, we should consider
our individual circumstances and all this when we're talking about fiscal.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Matters as a whole.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But also there sort has seemed to be some emerging
tensions with the ECB, the European Central Bank. We're starting
to see some nascent stuff around that.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
The European Central Bank in the last few moments has
raised its main policy rate by quarter of one percent.
That takes its main deposit rate from three percent two
three and a quarter percent.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
How much of a deal is that really for Italy?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
It is a very big deal. There's two issues. One
is the reality, which is that obviously as rates increase,
it's a problem for Italy because it becomes harder to
manage its debt it's more expensive. And then there's the
part that's internal. She has to show a little bit
that she's still Milney, so she's still someone who can
stand up to Europe, someone who can complain when it's
(17:56):
time and put Italy first, because pac Italian governments were
very collaborative. But Miloney's on this platform of Italy first,
Italy first, Italy first, and the ECB is one place
where she can show that she's banging her fists. Now
whether in reality that actually matters not so much, because
if inflation remains high, the ECB is not doing it
to punish Italy or the other countries like Spain and Greece.
(18:18):
The ECB is doing it to keep inflation down.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Alessandra, you mentioned this idea of Italy first, and with
this Georgia Maloney is sort of getting her fingers a
bit into state control companies and this idea of protecting
Italian businesses and industries.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Top of Prime Minister of Georgia Meloney's Italy First agenda
is a creation of national champions in areas from energy
to fashion and luxury and a sovereign wealth fund.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
When you look at key state assets, you've got the
lights of the energy giants Ennel and Any and defense
company Leonardo. They all recently underwent a bit of a
changing of the guard with new CEOs coming in and
as a result, Maloney's gotten involved because the government is
one of the key shareholders and all those companies. Can
you talk a bit about what her intentions are when
(19:03):
it comes to the state sector in Italy.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
She came in when all these posts were up for
renewal and it happens about every three years, so she's
been quite fortunate. These are very very big state controlled companies,
big companies that really matter, and she gets to put
her people in and that means that even if and
when the government should fall, she will have people that
have her worldview, so a more nationalist, a more if
(19:27):
we want to call it Italy first worldview in those spots,
and that won't change for at least three years. And
that really matters, you know, because this is like the
elite of the stock exchange first of all, and people
who are influencing all kinds of decisions, from energy policy
to also how we deal in relations with other companies
out there. I mean E and I for a long
(19:48):
time was called, you know, the true Foreign Ministry because
it's so active all over the world with its oil
and gas interests that it's almost more efficient, some say,
than the Italian foreign ministry. Her message is typically nationalist.
She is not going to just collaborate and play nice.
She wants Italian interest protected, and she also wants things
(20:09):
like more influence for Italy in its backyard, which is
really unusual. Italy has not done that since fascism. For example,
she wants more influence in the Mediterranean.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
There is one area polici area where she has struck
a bit of trouble, and that's on China Kiara. Italy
was sort of one of the few nations or large
nations that signed a proper agreement with China on its
Belton Road trade and investment programming. And you can see
her so slightly trying to reverse out of that a bit.
But she can't reverse all the way out because Italy
does still need to maintain trade investment ties with China.
(20:43):
How is she juggling all of that and what kind
of peril do you see for her in.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
That all eyes are on Meloni just because she has
to make a public announcement by the end of the year.
She will have to say publicly either yes or no
to the Belton Road saying no could just really irritate
Beijing with possible retaliation.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
The Italian government is reportedly close to pulling out of
China's Built and Road initiative. Prime Minister Georgia Maloney says
Rome's further involvement in Chi Jing King's global trade network
is up the debate.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
There is a lot of pressure from the US and DEAD,
but at the same time she wants to find a
way not to really blow it into China's face.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
After the break, what can we expect from the Italian
leader's visit to Washington, DC? Before we take a closer
look at Georgia Maloney's relationship with Joe Biden. A head
of their meeting at the White House, I wanted to
(21:48):
talk about some of the Italian Prime Minister's key relationships
with foreign leaders. One that's emerged as being exceptionally fraud
it's her relationship with the French President Emanuel Macron. Can
you talk a bit about what's behind the tensions between
Maloney and Macron.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
I mean, they generally don't really like each other as
kind of distinctively as people. For Macron, Melonie is a
sort of nemesis. She is associated to Marine Lapen, even
if Alexander was saying, they are really different political figures.
So for Macron is really hard to be seen domestically
(22:26):
with Malone to be hosting her.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
In the first official meeting outside of international summits. Emanuel
Macart welcome Georgia Maloney.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
To the and this is contributing to the clash and
the competition between the two of them. Meloney is just
coming after Dragi and Dragi and Macron were really close.
They were friends, they were like on a really good
personal relationship for years, even before Dragi became Prime minister.
So you know, it was hard for anyone to follow
(22:58):
Mari Draghi in lee relations with France.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Well, you talked about instinctive relationship, the instinctive dislike that
they seem to have for each other. I'm talking about
Maloney and Macron. But Alessandra one area where she seems
to have an instinctive friendship, a very strong rapport, a
connection is with the US President Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
President Biden met with Italian Prime Minister Georgia Maloney for
the first time today.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
The two leaders spoke during a closed door meeting at
the G twenty summit in Bali.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
We saw that almost sort of affectionate comments with each
other at the recent G seven summit where they're both
in Hiroshima. We've seen it elsewhere, but there does seem
to be a natural rapport with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
What's your perception of that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It has a lot to do with Malonney's positioning herself
as a really faithful ally of the US, and that's
what she wants to convey, and she is sort of
taking up what was once the center rights position. You know,
historically Italy after World War Two wanted to be the
best possible ally for the US. Lots of things have
happened since then, and there have been other positions, but
(24:04):
I think Maloney really wants to prove herself. So it's
her really courting, if we could say, Biden, you know,
wanting to show she really is going to be a
great ally and hoping as well. It's sort of typical
historically of the Italian right to want contracts with the
US and go in that direction. Every time we've had
a right wing government, the companies have done more business
with the United States.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Kiara, looking ahead to the meeting between Joe Biden and
Georgia Maloney what are some of the things we should
be expecting from that.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
There is a lot of expectation from the Italian side
of how important it is to be hosted at the
White House. So the key question that we want to
see out of that meeting is that will Georgia Meloney
be somehow promoted to first tier leader? Will she still
remain somehow on the fringes when it comes to the
(24:56):
decision making in Europe. We have seen that she has
a really good relation with Joe Biden. They've been hugging
and smiling and praising each other a lot. But when
it comes to the key calls in which for example,
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is discussed, military support to Ukraine
is discussed, or key financial decisions, well she has been
(25:18):
somehow left out, not because of her, but also because
Italy is the third biggest European economy but is still
kind of a smaller country when it comes to the
global stage. So the key question is will this meeting
be a promotion and an affirmation for Italy looking ahead?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And what would that look like.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
What should we interpret as science that that's actually happening.
What's it tangible that she could come away with.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I think a tangible will be some statements of US support,
for example on the G seven that Italy will host
next year. Or also we will look out for, for example,
invitations of Meloney in key calls ahead or just stronger
cooperation between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And is there any room for tension?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I really see tension potentially on the discussion on China.
The US is really waiting for some signs that Italy
will pull out of the Belton Road initiative. So the
question is like, will Meloney really make a move this time?
A will is she continued to take time? I could
see some tension and possibly some statement by Biden that
(26:28):
will force her to take a line.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Kieren Alessandra, thank you very much for joining me today.
Thank you thanks for listening to us here at The
Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.
For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen. And we'd love to hear from you.
Email us with questions or comments to Big Take at
(26:53):
Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take
is Vicki Virgolina as Senior producer is Catherine Fink. Frederica
Romanello is our producer. Our associate producer is Zena Abzidiki.
Hilde Garcia is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin.
I'm Roslin Matheson in for wes Kosova. We'll be back
(27:15):
tomorrow with another big take.
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