July 2, 2024 • 15 mins
One after another, bankers at China International Capital Corporation — China’s premier investment bank – are pledging loyalty to the Communist Party, underscoring a new reality for Wall Street-style capitalists in the era of Xi Jinping.
Today on the Big Take Asia, host David Gura speaks with Bloomberg’s Cathy Chan about the tug-of-war between communism and capitalism at the “Morgan Stanley of China,” and how politics are redefining Chinese finance.
Read More: China’s Investment Bankers Join the Communist Party as Morale (and Paychecks) Shrink
Further listening: What Does China’s Economic Slowdown Mean For the Communist Party?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The oldest investment bank in China is a shadow of
its former self. The Beijing based China International Capital Corporation
or CICC, used to compete for business and talent with
some of the biggest firms on Wall Street. The bank
was designed to raise the profile of China and its
state run companies and to attract more foreign investment. It
(00:34):
was a symbol of the communist country's embrace of capitalism
under former Chinese President Jong Zimen. But Kathy Chan, who
covers Asia's investment banks for Bloomberg, says cicc's priorities have
changed under new leadership, and so have its ambitions.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I think that internal culture has shifted from being aggressive
and driven to largely complacent.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Kathy says. The firm, which once in embraced the West,
is now turning inward, deepening its ties to the Chinese
Communist Party.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It was revealed that thirty percent of the staff become
COMMUNSTPODIY members. Having thirty percent is pretty high number, quite
an astonishing figure.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
One of Kathy's sources told her about a recent meeting
of cicc senior staff. He said they unfurled a Chinese
flag and a banner with slogans by President Hixiping, the
current leader of the Chinese Communist Party, and something else
stood out.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
To Kathy's source, he was astonished to see a lot
of people wearing the CIPPE badges. Basically, it features a
rap background with a golden yellow hammer and sickle display
on the left. It symbolized the party's roots and social sideas.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's not something you would have seen during the bank's
heyday when there were fewer party members among the cicc's ranks,
and they wouldn't have advertised it. And what's happening at
ci ICC could raise eyebrows among global investors who are
already anxious about China's opaqueness and find the business environment
difficult to navigate it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Basically, it tells you a liberal, restlized companies or entity
in China will not go well because they will not
be very much welcomed. What China wants is a company
or entity that only serve the inches of the party.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm
David Gerra. Every week we take you inside some of
the world's biggest and most powerful economies and the markets
tycoons and businesses that drive this ever shifting region. On
today's episode, the transformation of China's oldest investment bank What
that means for the future of finance in China. The
(03:03):
story of the China International Capital Corporation begins almost thirty
years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
C SEC was created in nineteen ninety five. It was
a job venture between Morgan Steane and China Construction Bank
and back by other investors in Hong Kong and China.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It was a new arrangement and at that time Morgan
Stanley's president called it a quote landmark in China's move
toward becoming a full participant in and the beneficiary of
the international capital markets. The goal, Bloomberg'skathy Chan says, was
to create a firm that would help Chinese companies raise
money from overseas investors.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
The idea is really to help all these stay owned
companies in China restructure, reform and to introduce foreign investors
invest into these companies.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Of course, to do that successfully, CICC needed to hire
top talent, and the bank was on the lookout for
a specific type.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
They actually didn't want to attract bankers from Goldman and more.
In standy they only want bankers who have really good
knowledge based in China about China, so they were more
focusing on the Chinese who studied abroad or has the
westernized minds.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Kathy says. These people have a nickname.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
People who studies abroad and came back. They are called
sea turtles, basically having the westernized knowledge and skills to
run the firm with pretty westernized thinking.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
CICC was basically a startup without the name recognition of
its more established peers, but as the company grew, it
modeled itself after the big western banks that came before
it in New York and London in the early days.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Because of the backers who have Moman Standy and also
GIC behind. Definitely it was a pretty liberalized, the resonized
way of managing things.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That seemed to work. CICC was competitive. It became a
trusted advisor to Chinese companies and introduced them to investors
who saw opportunity in China, and.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So c SCS has been making really good profit because
of these valuable advice given to the Chinese companies, and
they are very competitive among the global banks in China
because they are the only one who knows the East
and the West, and competitive in the sense that they
are paying the bankers really well, sometimes better than the
(05:35):
people the bankers get Morganistenic government is getting.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But after fifteen years, Morgan Stanley decided to pull out
of the joint venture. It partnered with another local firm,
China Fortune Securities company that Morgan Stanley hoped would give
it more influence over management and securities. What happened when
Morgan Stanley pulled out of this arrangement hasn't.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Changed much except to become more verse. The sec a
profit driven company, very aggressive, even more independent from Mogenstanding,
meaning they can pursue their own goos, pursue their clients strategies.
I mean, they're very very China focus, and they don't
have the restrictions that facing Morgan Standing or government sets.
(06:20):
So after Monstly left, SISS to become even more prosperous.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But then something changed. A few years ago, China's president
started to signal a shift in the country's economic priorities,
and he summed it up in a political slogan, Common Prosperity.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Common Prosperity Drive is introduced by Presidencity in Pain in
twenty twenty one, The aim of that is to create
an environment with a relatively eco distribution of wealth.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
There is this inherent tension between communism and capitalism. They
don't go hand in hand, and practically speaking, finding some
kind of compromise between the two was not an easy
sell to investment bankers. For those sea turtles, the water
at CICC wasn't as warm as it used to be.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Being westernized meaning you are not serving the country well,
meaning your priority is not the country in slot party building.
Your pority is your own wealth. You're amerging your personal life.
That's not the ethos of the Communist Party. So in
a way that c S is a bankers if you
are more of the on the western side, you're definitely
(07:32):
feeling very awkward in the firm.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
She's Common Prosperity Drive had a profound impact on the
bank's performance, but just how did it go from being
a premier investment bank to fighting for its future? That's
after the BREAKA resident Xi Ximping, who's also the General
(08:02):
Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, rolled out his Common
Prosperity Drive in twenty twenty one. Cheni Mi.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
For then shidcly Minshenda Shiji Shintinda.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It was a directive intended to share a slower growing
economy more equitably, and it had an outsized impact on CICC,
China's oldest investment bank limit a slump in deal making.
Bankers at SICC have been seeing their bonuses slashed for
the past three years. Some senior bankers saw their total
compensation cut by more than forty percent last year, and
(08:41):
this April, CICC demoted some of its senior bankers and
cut their base salaries even further.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It actually happened quite slowly. On twenty Street is really
the year that you've seen a lot of changes because
especially after this new chairman came in from a state
owned background, Galla SISK and once this new guy came in,
the whole firm really changed the cultures everything. People when
they see the clients, if it's as of your clients,
(09:09):
stay on clients, they were just displayed the five star flags,
you know, displaying presidency slogan, how to build a party,
build a country, that sort of thing. It happened not
until late last year or earlier this year.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Can you introduce us to the chairman, the man running
this company, the chairman it's.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Called and he came on board in November twenty three.
After he came on board, the whole firm is being
kind of run by him, characterized by a lot of
slogan readings and basically upholding the values of party. And
he did that pretty much in every major meetings before
the actual meeting starts.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Kathy, we've talked about the talent that this bank could
attract and compensation getting cut by by forty percent, What
effects that had on the ability to a train talent,
to retain talent, and also just a morale within this bank.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Definitely, they are not able to retain any talent or
a tract talent, and that's why you see the morale
has been bad. A lot of people I've talked to,
they're basically lying flat trying to keep their job unless
they find a new one. So everyone's pretty much looking
for jobs elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We reached out to CICC, but it's spokeswomen declined to comment.
For those who have stayed put, almost everything about the
job that could change has changed, Kathy says.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Bankers who are visiting SOE s stay owned companies, they
will have to display the flag or the store guans
to kind of make the client feels like they are
on the same side. That is symbolizing unity and alignment
with the party and lower down operationally, Chairman Chen is
basically telling people you have to work hard for the party.
(11:01):
We are not here to promote our self interest. So
because of that change, bankers are generally thinking the hope
of CSC is come and people are no longer working
hard or the investment banking floors is c SC in
China before six pm is really much empty. As I
was told, people no longer walk long hours. They would
just be there and then left early.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
This is just an ethos of being a member of
the party. You wouldn't pull an all night, or you
wouldn't stay late, you wouldn't keep you wouldn't keep working.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I mean the thing about if you are no longer
working too for your own interest, why would you bother
kind of working so hard?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Kathy, you've described how there are now so many people
who work at this bank who are members of the
party display signs of their membership. Is it the expectation
now if you work at this bank, that you do
join the party, And if so, what are the potential
benefits of doing that to those bankers who work at CICC.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Being a party member is getting more important in this
content because if you are performing and you are a
party member, that means the chance of you getting promoted
is higher than if you're not.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I'd love for you to situate this in the economic
climate we're in right now, the business climate that we're in.
This is a bank whose bread and butter is IPOs
is taking companies public, and this has not been a
great time for that. NOI is it looking like that's
going to improve anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That's right, especially for Chinese companies selling stocks overseas. People
generally don't believe that there would be a major bounds
back at least this year. Although we have see more deals,
we will never be able to go back to the
old days. That's general thinking.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The grim mood is reflected in cicc's stock price, which
is almost half what it was two years ago. Profits
and revenue have declined, and the bank has been losing
market share. You almost have to squint to see the
original CICC at this point, and Kathy says the firm's
future looks very, very different.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
We have a professor in Hong Kong basically thinking CSEC
wild disappear. The future of c SC would be very
much the same as the future of other state owned
brokeages in China. There to serve the country. The international clients'
investors will not be their major focused clientele.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
All of this has signaled the end of what was
an ambitious experiment back in nineteen ninety five when CICC
was started.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
The bands itself not disappear, but the culture of the band,
the original access to the band, will disappear eventually. That
means for the global bands, I mean they will see
a disappearance of a strong competitor that they used to
face when it comes to China deals.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
For global investors who are watching cicc's cultural and ideological transformation,
Kathy says, there's a lesson here.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I think China doesn't really want to be seen as
converting the foreign firms into a CCP entity, and that
propervier will scare a lot of investors. Not yet, but
if you are based in China, if you have to
deal with the local governments and regulators more for business purposes,
you Papyria want to be seen as more China like
(14:19):
rather than very Westernized or very you as like.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
This is the big take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm
David Gerre. This episode was produced by Young, Young, Naomi,
Jessica Beec and Ariana Tapia. It was edited by Aaron
Edwards and Jonas Bergmann. It was mixed by Rishi Pajacol.
It was fact checked by Naomi and Young. Our senior
producers are Naomi Shavin and Kim Gittleson. We get editorial
(14:46):
direction from Elizabeth Ponso. Nicole Beemster Boor is our executive producer.
Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.
Please follow and review The Big Take wherever you listen
to podcasts. It helps new listeners find the show. We'll
see you next time.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The oldest investment bank in China is a shadow of
its former self. The Beijing based China International Capital Corporation
or CICC, used to compete for business and talent with
some of the biggest firms on Wall Street. The bank
was designed to raise the profile of China and its
state run companies and to attract more foreign investment. It
(00:34):
was a symbol of the communist country's embrace of capitalism
under former Chinese President Jong Zimen. But Kathy Chan, who
covers Asia's investment banks for Bloomberg, says cicc's priorities have
changed under new leadership, and so have its ambitions.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I think that internal culture has shifted from being aggressive
and driven to largely complacent.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Kathy says. The firm, which once in embraced the West,
is now turning inward, deepening its ties to the Chinese
Communist Party.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It was revealed that thirty percent of the staff become
COMMUNSTPODIY members. Having thirty percent is pretty high number, quite
an astonishing figure.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
One of Kathy's sources told her about a recent meeting
of cicc senior staff. He said they unfurled a Chinese
flag and a banner with slogans by President Hixiping, the
current leader of the Chinese Communist Party, and something else
stood out.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
To Kathy's source, he was astonished to see a lot
of people wearing the CIPPE badges. Basically, it features a
rap background with a golden yellow hammer and sickle display
on the left. It symbolized the party's roots and social sideas.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's not something you would have seen during the bank's
heyday when there were fewer party members among the cicc's ranks,
and they wouldn't have advertised it. And what's happening at
ci ICC could raise eyebrows among global investors who are
already anxious about China's opaqueness and find the business environment
difficult to navigate it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Basically, it tells you a liberal, restlized companies or entity
in China will not go well because they will not
be very much welcomed. What China wants is a company
or entity that only serve the inches of the party.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm
David Gerra. Every week we take you inside some of
the world's biggest and most powerful economies and the markets
tycoons and businesses that drive this ever shifting region. On
today's episode, the transformation of China's oldest investment bank What
that means for the future of finance in China. The
(03:03):
story of the China International Capital Corporation begins almost thirty
years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
C SEC was created in nineteen ninety five. It was
a job venture between Morgan Steane and China Construction Bank
and back by other investors in Hong Kong and China.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It was a new arrangement and at that time Morgan
Stanley's president called it a quote landmark in China's move
toward becoming a full participant in and the beneficiary of
the international capital markets. The goal, Bloomberg'skathy Chan says, was
to create a firm that would help Chinese companies raise
money from overseas investors.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
The idea is really to help all these stay owned
companies in China restructure, reform and to introduce foreign investors
invest into these companies.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Of course, to do that successfully, CICC needed to hire
top talent, and the bank was on the lookout for
a specific type.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
They actually didn't want to attract bankers from Goldman and more.
In standy they only want bankers who have really good
knowledge based in China about China, so they were more
focusing on the Chinese who studied abroad or has the
westernized minds.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Kathy says. These people have a nickname.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
People who studies abroad and came back. They are called
sea turtles, basically having the westernized knowledge and skills to
run the firm with pretty westernized thinking.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
CICC was basically a startup without the name recognition of
its more established peers, but as the company grew, it
modeled itself after the big western banks that came before
it in New York and London in the early days.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Because of the backers who have Moman Standy and also
GIC behind. Definitely it was a pretty liberalized, the resonized
way of managing things.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That seemed to work. CICC was competitive. It became a
trusted advisor to Chinese companies and introduced them to investors
who saw opportunity in China, and.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So c SCS has been making really good profit because
of these valuable advice given to the Chinese companies, and
they are very competitive among the global banks in China
because they are the only one who knows the East
and the West, and competitive in the sense that they
are paying the bankers really well, sometimes better than the
(05:35):
people the bankers get Morganistenic government is getting.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But after fifteen years, Morgan Stanley decided to pull out
of the joint venture. It partnered with another local firm,
China Fortune Securities company that Morgan Stanley hoped would give
it more influence over management and securities. What happened when
Morgan Stanley pulled out of this arrangement hasn't.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Changed much except to become more verse. The sec a
profit driven company, very aggressive, even more independent from Mogenstanding,
meaning they can pursue their own goos, pursue their clients strategies.
I mean, they're very very China focus, and they don't
have the restrictions that facing Morgan Standing or government sets.
(06:20):
So after Monstly left, SISS to become even more prosperous.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But then something changed. A few years ago, China's president
started to signal a shift in the country's economic priorities,
and he summed it up in a political slogan, Common Prosperity.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Common Prosperity Drive is introduced by Presidencity in Pain in
twenty twenty one, The aim of that is to create
an environment with a relatively eco distribution of wealth.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
There is this inherent tension between communism and capitalism. They
don't go hand in hand, and practically speaking, finding some
kind of compromise between the two was not an easy
sell to investment bankers. For those sea turtles, the water
at CICC wasn't as warm as it used to be.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Being westernized meaning you are not serving the country well,
meaning your priority is not the country in slot party building.
Your pority is your own wealth. You're amerging your personal life.
That's not the ethos of the Communist Party. So in
a way that c S is a bankers if you
are more of the on the western side, you're definitely
(07:32):
feeling very awkward in the firm.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
She's Common Prosperity Drive had a profound impact on the
bank's performance, but just how did it go from being
a premier investment bank to fighting for its future? That's
after the BREAKA resident Xi Ximping, who's also the General
(08:02):
Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, rolled out his Common
Prosperity Drive in twenty twenty one. Cheni Mi.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
For then shidcly Minshenda Shiji Shintinda.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It was a directive intended to share a slower growing
economy more equitably, and it had an outsized impact on CICC,
China's oldest investment bank limit a slump in deal making.
Bankers at SICC have been seeing their bonuses slashed for
the past three years. Some senior bankers saw their total
compensation cut by more than forty percent last year, and
(08:41):
this April, CICC demoted some of its senior bankers and
cut their base salaries even further.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It actually happened quite slowly. On twenty Street is really
the year that you've seen a lot of changes because
especially after this new chairman came in from a state
owned background, Galla SISK and once this new guy came in,
the whole firm really changed the cultures everything. People when
they see the clients, if it's as of your clients,
(09:09):
stay on clients, they were just displayed the five star flags,
you know, displaying presidency slogan, how to build a party,
build a country, that sort of thing. It happened not
until late last year or earlier this year.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Can you introduce us to the chairman, the man running
this company, the chairman it's.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Called and he came on board in November twenty three.
After he came on board, the whole firm is being
kind of run by him, characterized by a lot of
slogan readings and basically upholding the values of party. And
he did that pretty much in every major meetings before
the actual meeting starts.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Kathy, we've talked about the talent that this bank could
attract and compensation getting cut by by forty percent, What
effects that had on the ability to a train talent,
to retain talent, and also just a morale within this bank.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Definitely, they are not able to retain any talent or
a tract talent, and that's why you see the morale
has been bad. A lot of people I've talked to,
they're basically lying flat trying to keep their job unless
they find a new one. So everyone's pretty much looking
for jobs elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We reached out to CICC, but it's spokeswomen declined to comment.
For those who have stayed put, almost everything about the
job that could change has changed, Kathy says.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Bankers who are visiting SOE s stay owned companies, they
will have to display the flag or the store guans
to kind of make the client feels like they are
on the same side. That is symbolizing unity and alignment
with the party and lower down operationally, Chairman Chen is
basically telling people you have to work hard for the party.
(11:01):
We are not here to promote our self interest. So
because of that change, bankers are generally thinking the hope
of CSC is come and people are no longer working
hard or the investment banking floors is c SC in
China before six pm is really much empty. As I
was told, people no longer walk long hours. They would
just be there and then left early.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
This is just an ethos of being a member of
the party. You wouldn't pull an all night, or you
wouldn't stay late, you wouldn't keep you wouldn't keep working.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I mean the thing about if you are no longer
working too for your own interest, why would you bother
kind of working so hard?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Kathy, you've described how there are now so many people
who work at this bank who are members of the
party display signs of their membership. Is it the expectation
now if you work at this bank, that you do
join the party, And if so, what are the potential
benefits of doing that to those bankers who work at CICC.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Being a party member is getting more important in this
content because if you are performing and you are a
party member, that means the chance of you getting promoted
is higher than if you're not.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I'd love for you to situate this in the economic
climate we're in right now, the business climate that we're in.
This is a bank whose bread and butter is IPOs
is taking companies public, and this has not been a
great time for that. NOI is it looking like that's
going to improve anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That's right, especially for Chinese companies selling stocks overseas. People
generally don't believe that there would be a major bounds
back at least this year. Although we have see more deals,
we will never be able to go back to the
old days. That's general thinking.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The grim mood is reflected in cicc's stock price, which
is almost half what it was two years ago. Profits
and revenue have declined, and the bank has been losing
market share. You almost have to squint to see the
original CICC at this point, and Kathy says the firm's
future looks very, very different.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
We have a professor in Hong Kong basically thinking CSEC
wild disappear. The future of c SC would be very
much the same as the future of other state owned
brokeages in China. There to serve the country. The international clients'
investors will not be their major focused clientele.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
All of this has signaled the end of what was
an ambitious experiment back in nineteen ninety five when CICC
was started.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
The bands itself not disappear, but the culture of the band,
the original access to the band, will disappear eventually. That
means for the global bands, I mean they will see
a disappearance of a strong competitor that they used to
face when it comes to China deals.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
For global investors who are watching cicc's cultural and ideological transformation,
Kathy says, there's a lesson here.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I think China doesn't really want to be seen as
converting the foreign firms into a CCP entity, and that
propervier will scare a lot of investors. Not yet, but
if you are based in China, if you have to
deal with the local governments and regulators more for business purposes,
you Papyria want to be seen as more China like
(14:19):
rather than very Westernized or very you as like.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
This is the big take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm
David Gerre. This episode was produced by Young, Young, Naomi,
Jessica Beec and Ariana Tapia. It was edited by Aaron
Edwards and Jonas Bergmann. It was mixed by Rishi Pajacol.
It was fact checked by Naomi and Young. Our senior
producers are Naomi Shavin and Kim Gittleson. We get editorial
(14:46):
direction from Elizabeth Ponso. Nicole Beemster Boor is our executive producer.
Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.
Please follow and review The Big Take wherever you listen
to podcasts. It helps new listeners find the show. We'll
see you next time.
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