March 4, 2025 • 13 mins
The data is in: The number of Black first-year students at Harvard Law fell dramatically after the Supreme Court’s decision to ban the consideration of race in admissions.
On today’s Big Take podcast, Bloomberg higher education reporter Janet Lorin shares what she’s learned about how Harvard has changed its application process and what the institution has historically meant for generations of Black leaders. Plus, we hear from a Harvard Law student who’s involved in efforts to recruit more Black students.
Read more: Harvard Law’s Fast Track to the American Elite Is Losing Black Students
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
At the start of each academic year, Harvard Law School's
Black Law Students Association leads a trip for new students
to Martha's Vineyard. It's a chance for them to get
to know each other, to meet older black students, to
become a part of a community.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And this year some of the second and third year
students noticed there were fewer black first year law students.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Janet Lauren covers higher education for Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So after that trip in September, they got together and said,
we need to do something about this.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
The members of h Balsa, as the group is known,
they're trying to take matters into their own hands because
this is the first class admitted after the Supreme Court
banned the use of race and admissions. And there's already
been a notable impact. And for a school like Harvard,
with such a vast alumni network and a history of
churning out leaders in business and politics, that impact could
(01:02):
eventually mean fewer opportunities for black Americans to get ahead.
I'm David Gura, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News Today. On the show, the decline in Black
student enrollment at Harvard Law School, what it means for
students and the school, and the downstream impacts this could
(01:23):
have on the next generation of black professionals in law, politics, business,
and more. Law is a field where, for better or worse,
connections and credentials matter, so a Harvard degree can have
a big impact on a student's career.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Harvard's place in America is you know, it's the richest college,
being down in fifty three billion dollars, its oldest, richest,
most influential. Harvard Law School is a pathway to the
American elite.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Many black Harvard Law students' careers have taken off after graduation.
Barack and Michelle Obama are perhaps the most famous alumni.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
There's been a few CEOs Ken Channel to ran American Express,
Ken Frazier, Haran Merk, Deborah Lee who ran Black Entertainment television.
And there is a Supreme.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Court justice as well, that's Ketanji Brown Jackson. But a
decade ago, Harvard was sued. The plaintiffs alleged to the
university's race conscious admissions process was illegal because it gave
favorable treatment to applicants from underrepresented backgrounds. The case went
all the way to the Supreme Court, and in twenty
twenty three, Harvard lost in a six to three decision.
(02:40):
The Court said the university was discriminating against Asian American
applicants in violation of the Constitution's equal protection guarantee.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
They decided that race could no longer be used in
college admissions.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Harvard and all other schools can no longer consider the
race of applicants when they make admissions decisions. And now
we're starting to understand how that case might impact admissions
at Harvard Law. A year after that Supreme Court decision,
only around three percent of first year students were black,
just nineteen.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Students, down from about forty three the previous year. It's
been a sharp decline.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Harvard Law's first year class is the largest among America's
elite law schools, but interestingly, enrollment of black students at
other elite law schools like Stanford, the University of Chicago, Yale,
and Duke actually increased. Janet says. The reason numbers may
be lower at Harvard could be because the school was
one of just two schools involved in that Supreme Court ruling,
(03:41):
so it has to tread carefully.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But it was surprising. This year, there were more black
first year students at Yale than at Harvard, even with
a huge difference in size.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
What has Harvard said about this.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Change, Well, the law school officially doesn't really want to
say much other than their following the law. I mean,
they are a law school. They have to follow a law.
They say, We continue to believe that a student body
composed of, you know, people with a wide variety of
backgrounds and experience a vital component of a legal education. However,
(04:13):
they are hamstrung in what they can say about how
they're recruiting for a diverse class. They can't say anything
specifically about recruiting black students, perhaps in a way that
they would have said several years ago. They are a
name defendant.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And beyond that court case, it's no small thing for
a university like Harvard to take on the US government.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
They receive a tremendous amount of federal funding, almost seven
hundred million dollars in the last academic year. Harvard students
receive federal student loan money. You know, if you want
to go to Harvard Law School, Harvard Business School, chances
are not everyone's going to be able to write a
check for one hundred and sixteen thousand dollars, so you're borrowing.
So they're very dependent on the government, and you know,
(04:56):
I think universities are in a position where there's just
a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of money
at stake.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So when it comes to recruiting more black law students,
current students in h BOLSA, the Black Law Students Association
have stepped into a leading role. Janet spoke with the
group's president, Sean Wynn, who said he noticed the first
sign of declining enrollment about a year ago when admitted
students started visiting campus. Then there was that fall retreat
to Martha's Vineyard. Suddenly recruiting black students felt more urgent, as.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Sean said, one year, you know, is not good, but
if you have two years and three years, then the
whole character of the place really changes.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
We spoke with one of the students who's spending time
recruiting black applicants.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I'm kuswit chum Anti, I also.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Go by KOs Coas is a second year law student
at Harvard and a member of h BALSA. She says
part of the reason she decided to become a lawyer
was seeing the powerful black lawyers who ran the NAACP
Legal Defense Fund where she worked as a college student.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Everyone in charge was a black woman, and for me,
like that meant a lot. Like I remember running into
like Sherilyn Eifel before she was going to the capital,
and she was grabbing coffee and she's like, hey, how
are you?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And I was like, ah, I feel was president of
the NAACP Legal Defense Fund at the time Coas was
working there.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I was so exciting to see people who look like
me leading a charge for something and having a meaningful impact.
And so that's actually what really pushed me to go
to law school, was seeing them in the office and
being surrounded by just incredible lawyers, but I think incredible
black lawyers.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
When Coas arrived at Harvard, she immediately felt welcomed by
the older ah Bolsa students, and now she wants to
make sure future black law students feel that same sense
of belonging.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Me and two other members just actually came back from
DC last weekend and we visited for colleges. I was
just connecting with black pre law students, answering any questions
that they may have, kind of giving them an overview
of what the application process looks like. I think a
lot of people feel when we are going to these
defense that they're wanted. I think a lot of people
(07:00):
they sometimes turn away from applying to Harvard, despite how
good they may be, because they feel that they're not going.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
To fit in.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So our biggest thing is to one provide resources for people,
but to also show them that they can find community.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Co says she's hoping that by jumping in early and
responding to the dip they saw last year, h BALSA
can make a difference in the future. But what's at
stake if their efforts aren't enough, that's after the break.
(07:34):
In recent decades, black alumni of Harvard Law School have
worked hard to establish a strong sense of community and
to help younger graduates professionally. Bloomberg's Janet Lauren says the
success of alumni in the nineteen sixties has helped propel
generations of alumni.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Conrad Harper was the only black student when he graduated
in nineteen sixty five, and he ended up at Simpson
Thatcher first black partner. He headed the New York Bar Association.
Very prominent guy, and in some ways his success had
a multiplying effect on others. Simpson Thatcher has a fellowship
(08:14):
named in his honor in You know, when you see
someone who's been successful and their path could potentially be replicated,
that's important. And now, as one of the law professors
at Harvard that I've spoken to, David Wilkins talked about,
you know, you don't want that avenue to be constricted
(08:36):
at all.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Someone who has followed that path is John Carr. He
graduated from Harvard Law in nineteen eighty three, and like Harper,
he spent his career at the New York law firm
Simpson Thatcher today, he's worried about avenues of opportunity for
Black Americans being narrowed as more and more anti dei
initiatives become accepted in the law.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
He told me that it feels like we'ren't a new
Jim Crow, speaking of what the segregated South was for
a very very long time.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Janet also spoke with Deborah Lee, Harvard Law class of
nineteen eighty She's the former chairman and CEO of Black
Entertainment Television. Lee was among a group of black alumni
who joined a Zoom call late last year to discuss
the drop in enrollment. She told Janet that she wants
to help the law school recruit better and make sure
the numbers don't fall. She said that much more needs
(09:26):
to be done. After the Supreme Court decision, Harvard had
to make significant changes to its application process. There's no
longer a race box that admissions officers will consider, but
the school says it still values diversity and so it
asks questions to learn more about the backgrounds of its applicants.
There are now prompts for two essays, a statement of
(09:47):
purpose and a statement of perspective.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
They're very open ended, and a statement of perspective is
looking backwards and is an invitation to share something about
how you grew up. Perhaps it says, please share how
your experiences background in our interests have shaped you and
will shape your engagement in the Harvard Law School community
and the legal profession.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
COS and other members of the Harvard Black Law Students
Association have been creating informational materials, visiting college campuses, and
reading essays. When they meet with prospective students, CO says
they try to make it clear those students can acknowledge
their identities in their applications.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
I guess A big question that we get is like
whether or not they can talk about their blackness and
their materials. A lot of people will ask like should
I take off from my resume that I was like
the president of our black student union, or like should
I not talk about my race at all? And I
tell them like, no, Like, that's the part of your identity.
It is an important part of you, of who you are,
(10:48):
and when you link it to the other experience that
you have, it makes a story more whole and complete.
Race is not something that you should feel the need
to hide.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Co says that information isn't just important into a perspective
student's application, it will also shape their perspective on the
law and their understanding of it, which is why she
says representation is important.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I think in a law school the whole point is
to be exposed those ideas and to uplift people with
different voices. And so when you see a case like
this and maybe the impact of it you do worry about.
You know, whether or not the legal feel is going
to be reflective of our country and our world and
what that means then for the type of issues that
are going to be uplifted. The perspectives that will be heard.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
That's something Katanji Brown Jackson, who went to Harvard College
and Harvard Law School, spoke of quite emotionally during her
Supreme Court confirmation hearings in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I was walking through Harvard Yard my freshman year.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Jackson described the imposter syndrome she felt upon arriving on.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Campus the first semester. I was really homesick. I was
really questioning do I belong here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
One night, jack passed by a black woman she didn't
know on the sidewalk in Harvard Yard.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And she looked at me, and I guess she knew
how I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And just as they crossed paths, the woman told her persevere.
And that's the message Jackson hoped to deliver to the
young people watching her become the first black woman on
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
The young people are the future, and so I want
them to know that they can do and be anything.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
In twenty twenty three, Jackson was one of three justices
who voted against the Court's Affirmative Action ruling, although she
participated only in a parallel case involving the University of
North Carolina. Since she previously served on Harvard's Board of Overseers.
Justice Jackson wrote in her descent quote, Ultimately, ignoring race
just makes it matter more. This is the Big Take
(12:55):
from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gera. This episode is produced
by Julia Press. It was edited by Tracy Samuelson and
Elizabeth Fournier. Special thanks to Greg Store and Elizabeth Wasserman.
It was mixed and sound designed by Alex Secura and
fact check by Adriana Tapia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven.
Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is
(13:15):
na Coole Beamster Boorg Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts.
If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe and
review The Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It
helps people find the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be
back tomorrow
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
At the start of each academic year, Harvard Law School's
Black Law Students Association leads a trip for new students
to Martha's Vineyard. It's a chance for them to get
to know each other, to meet older black students, to
become a part of a community.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And this year some of the second and third year
students noticed there were fewer black first year law students.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Janet Lauren covers higher education for Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So after that trip in September, they got together and said,
we need to do something about this.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
The members of h Balsa, as the group is known,
they're trying to take matters into their own hands because
this is the first class admitted after the Supreme Court
banned the use of race and admissions. And there's already
been a notable impact. And for a school like Harvard,
with such a vast alumni network and a history of
churning out leaders in business and politics, that impact could
(01:02):
eventually mean fewer opportunities for black Americans to get ahead.
I'm David Gura, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News Today. On the show, the decline in Black
student enrollment at Harvard Law School, what it means for
students and the school, and the downstream impacts this could
(01:23):
have on the next generation of black professionals in law, politics, business,
and more. Law is a field where, for better or worse,
connections and credentials matter, so a Harvard degree can have
a big impact on a student's career.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Harvard's place in America is you know, it's the richest college,
being down in fifty three billion dollars, its oldest, richest,
most influential. Harvard Law School is a pathway to the
American elite.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Many black Harvard Law students' careers have taken off after graduation.
Barack and Michelle Obama are perhaps the most famous alumni.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
There's been a few CEOs Ken Channel to ran American Express,
Ken Frazier, Haran Merk, Deborah Lee who ran Black Entertainment television.
And there is a Supreme.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Court justice as well, that's Ketanji Brown Jackson. But a
decade ago, Harvard was sued. The plaintiffs alleged to the
university's race conscious admissions process was illegal because it gave
favorable treatment to applicants from underrepresented backgrounds. The case went
all the way to the Supreme Court, and in twenty
twenty three, Harvard lost in a six to three decision.
(02:40):
The Court said the university was discriminating against Asian American
applicants in violation of the Constitution's equal protection guarantee.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
They decided that race could no longer be used in
college admissions.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Harvard and all other schools can no longer consider the
race of applicants when they make admissions decisions. And now
we're starting to understand how that case might impact admissions
at Harvard Law. A year after that Supreme Court decision,
only around three percent of first year students were black,
just nineteen.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Students, down from about forty three the previous year. It's
been a sharp decline.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Harvard Law's first year class is the largest among America's
elite law schools, but interestingly, enrollment of black students at
other elite law schools like Stanford, the University of Chicago, Yale,
and Duke actually increased. Janet says. The reason numbers may
be lower at Harvard could be because the school was
one of just two schools involved in that Supreme Court ruling,
(03:41):
so it has to tread carefully.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But it was surprising. This year, there were more black
first year students at Yale than at Harvard, even with
a huge difference in size.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
What has Harvard said about this.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Change, Well, the law school officially doesn't really want to
say much other than their following the law. I mean,
they are a law school. They have to follow a law.
They say, We continue to believe that a student body
composed of, you know, people with a wide variety of
backgrounds and experience a vital component of a legal education. However,
(04:13):
they are hamstrung in what they can say about how
they're recruiting for a diverse class. They can't say anything
specifically about recruiting black students, perhaps in a way that
they would have said several years ago. They are a
name defendant.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And beyond that court case, it's no small thing for
a university like Harvard to take on the US government.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
They receive a tremendous amount of federal funding, almost seven
hundred million dollars in the last academic year. Harvard students
receive federal student loan money. You know, if you want
to go to Harvard Law School, Harvard Business School, chances
are not everyone's going to be able to write a
check for one hundred and sixteen thousand dollars, so you're borrowing.
So they're very dependent on the government, and you know,
(04:56):
I think universities are in a position where there's just
a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of money
at stake.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So when it comes to recruiting more black law students,
current students in h BOLSA, the Black Law Students Association
have stepped into a leading role. Janet spoke with the
group's president, Sean Wynn, who said he noticed the first
sign of declining enrollment about a year ago when admitted
students started visiting campus. Then there was that fall retreat
to Martha's Vineyard. Suddenly recruiting black students felt more urgent, as.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Sean said, one year, you know, is not good, but
if you have two years and three years, then the
whole character of the place really changes.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
We spoke with one of the students who's spending time
recruiting black applicants.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I'm kuswit chum Anti, I also.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Go by KOs Coas is a second year law student
at Harvard and a member of h BALSA. She says
part of the reason she decided to become a lawyer
was seeing the powerful black lawyers who ran the NAACP
Legal Defense Fund where she worked as a college student.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Everyone in charge was a black woman, and for me,
like that meant a lot. Like I remember running into
like Sherilyn Eifel before she was going to the capital,
and she was grabbing coffee and she's like, hey, how
are you?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And I was like, ah, I feel was president of
the NAACP Legal Defense Fund at the time Coas was
working there.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I was so exciting to see people who look like
me leading a charge for something and having a meaningful impact.
And so that's actually what really pushed me to go
to law school, was seeing them in the office and
being surrounded by just incredible lawyers, but I think incredible
black lawyers.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
When Coas arrived at Harvard, she immediately felt welcomed by
the older ah Bolsa students, and now she wants to
make sure future black law students feel that same sense
of belonging.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Me and two other members just actually came back from
DC last weekend and we visited for colleges. I was
just connecting with black pre law students, answering any questions
that they may have, kind of giving them an overview
of what the application process looks like. I think a
lot of people feel when we are going to these
defense that they're wanted. I think a lot of people
(07:00):
they sometimes turn away from applying to Harvard, despite how
good they may be, because they feel that they're not going.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
To fit in.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So our biggest thing is to one provide resources for people,
but to also show them that they can find community.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Co says she's hoping that by jumping in early and
responding to the dip they saw last year, h BALSA
can make a difference in the future. But what's at
stake if their efforts aren't enough, that's after the break.
(07:34):
In recent decades, black alumni of Harvard Law School have
worked hard to establish a strong sense of community and
to help younger graduates professionally. Bloomberg's Janet Lauren says the
success of alumni in the nineteen sixties has helped propel
generations of alumni.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Conrad Harper was the only black student when he graduated
in nineteen sixty five, and he ended up at Simpson
Thatcher first black partner. He headed the New York Bar Association.
Very prominent guy, and in some ways his success had
a multiplying effect on others. Simpson Thatcher has a fellowship
(08:14):
named in his honor in You know, when you see
someone who's been successful and their path could potentially be replicated,
that's important. And now, as one of the law professors
at Harvard that I've spoken to, David Wilkins talked about,
you know, you don't want that avenue to be constricted
(08:36):
at all.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Someone who has followed that path is John Carr. He
graduated from Harvard Law in nineteen eighty three, and like Harper,
he spent his career at the New York law firm
Simpson Thatcher today, he's worried about avenues of opportunity for
Black Americans being narrowed as more and more anti dei
initiatives become accepted in the law.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
He told me that it feels like we'ren't a new
Jim Crow, speaking of what the segregated South was for
a very very long time.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Janet also spoke with Deborah Lee, Harvard Law class of
nineteen eighty She's the former chairman and CEO of Black
Entertainment Television. Lee was among a group of black alumni
who joined a Zoom call late last year to discuss
the drop in enrollment. She told Janet that she wants
to help the law school recruit better and make sure
the numbers don't fall. She said that much more needs
(09:26):
to be done. After the Supreme Court decision, Harvard had
to make significant changes to its application process. There's no
longer a race box that admissions officers will consider, but
the school says it still values diversity and so it
asks questions to learn more about the backgrounds of its applicants.
There are now prompts for two essays, a statement of
(09:47):
purpose and a statement of perspective.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
They're very open ended, and a statement of perspective is
looking backwards and is an invitation to share something about
how you grew up. Perhaps it says, please share how
your experiences background in our interests have shaped you and
will shape your engagement in the Harvard Law School community
and the legal profession.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
COS and other members of the Harvard Black Law Students
Association have been creating informational materials, visiting college campuses, and
reading essays. When they meet with prospective students, CO says
they try to make it clear those students can acknowledge
their identities in their applications.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
I guess A big question that we get is like
whether or not they can talk about their blackness and
their materials. A lot of people will ask like should
I take off from my resume that I was like
the president of our black student union, or like should
I not talk about my race at all? And I
tell them like, no, Like, that's the part of your identity.
It is an important part of you, of who you are,
(10:48):
and when you link it to the other experience that
you have, it makes a story more whole and complete.
Race is not something that you should feel the need
to hide.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Co says that information isn't just important into a perspective
student's application, it will also shape their perspective on the
law and their understanding of it, which is why she
says representation is important.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I think in a law school the whole point is
to be exposed those ideas and to uplift people with
different voices. And so when you see a case like
this and maybe the impact of it you do worry about.
You know, whether or not the legal feel is going
to be reflective of our country and our world and
what that means then for the type of issues that
are going to be uplifted. The perspectives that will be heard.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
That's something Katanji Brown Jackson, who went to Harvard College
and Harvard Law School, spoke of quite emotionally during her
Supreme Court confirmation hearings in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I was walking through Harvard Yard my freshman year.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Jackson described the imposter syndrome she felt upon arriving on.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Campus the first semester. I was really homesick. I was
really questioning do I belong here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
One night, jack passed by a black woman she didn't
know on the sidewalk in Harvard Yard.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And she looked at me, and I guess she knew
how I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And just as they crossed paths, the woman told her persevere.
And that's the message Jackson hoped to deliver to the
young people watching her become the first black woman on
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
The young people are the future, and so I want
them to know that they can do and be anything.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
In twenty twenty three, Jackson was one of three justices
who voted against the Court's Affirmative Action ruling, although she
participated only in a parallel case involving the University of
North Carolina. Since she previously served on Harvard's Board of Overseers.
Justice Jackson wrote in her descent quote, Ultimately, ignoring race
just makes it matter more. This is the Big Take
(12:55):
from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gera. This episode is produced
by Julia Press. It was edited by Tracy Samuelson and
Elizabeth Fournier. Special thanks to Greg Store and Elizabeth Wasserman.
It was mixed and sound designed by Alex Secura and
fact check by Adriana Tapia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven.
Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is
(13:15):
na Coole Beamster Boorg Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts.
If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe and
review The Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It
helps people find the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be
back tomorrow
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