February 13, 2025 • 48 mins
When it comes to topics like pleasure and sex, we all have different biases and shame that we carry and it’s difficult to distance ourselves from the conditioning and societal values that we’ve grown up with. But this episode is definitely going to make you evaluate your thoughts on sex, shame and empowerment.
Joining the podcast today is sexologist and academic Dr Hilary Caldwell. Hilary was a sex worker in secret for 20 years and kept her double life from her friends and family. She didn’t have any of the stereotypes that seem to surround women for their reasons of getting into the sex industry and she certainly didn’t need to be saved from it.
Hilary has used her experiences in the industry alongside her research to unpack why we feel so much internal shame when it comes to sex.
Dr Hilary Caldwell is an academic with a Masters in Health Science and Applied Science. Her doctorate, ‘Women Who Buy Sex in Australia’ was the first study in the world to explore women buying sexual services and was informed by her professional career in the field of sexology.
We chat:
- Hilary’s reasons for entering the sex work industry and whether they’re the same as everyone who enters the industry
- Hilary’s experiences entering the industry that oppose preconceived ideas and the things she regrets
- Why Hilary continued nursing at the same time
- Why she kept her other work a secret from friends and family
- What made Hilary want to enter academia and infiltrate the system
- The different experiences that women have around sex in comparison to men
- Emotions like jealousy and how poly relationships navigate jealousy
- Some of the things that sex workers collectively keep secret
- Why sex workers are fighting for decriminalisation rather than legalisation of their industry
You can find more from Hilary at her website
And instagram
You can find Hilary’s book “Slutdom: Reclaiming shame-free sexuality”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded on cameragle Land. Hi guys, and
welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittney.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Now, when it comes to topics like pleasure and sex,
we all have very different biases and shames that we
carry with us, and I think it's really difficult for
us to distance ourselves from the conditioning of the societal
values that we've grown up with. But I think this
episode is definitely one that's going to make you evaluate
your thoughts on sex, shame and empowerment. Joining the podcast
today is sexologist and academic doctor Hillary Caldwell. Hillary was
(00:39):
a sex worker and is a sex worker. However, it
was in secret for twenty years. She kept this as
a double life from her friends and also her family.
She didn't have any of the stereotypes that seemed to
surround women for their reasons of getting into the sex
work industry, and she certainly didn't need to be saved
from it. Hillary has used her experiences in the industry
alongside her research, to un why we feel so much
(01:01):
internal shame when it comes to sex. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you so much, Laura.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
This is a subject that I think our generation. When
we grew up, it was taboo. It was very hush hush.
You didn't know anyone that had done it. You wouldn't
hear anyone talk so openly about it.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think it still is in a lot of ways,
though I think where you know, we've made some headway,
but it's definitely still it still carries with it a
lot of like question marks when people do talk about
it openly.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
It is and even though and I'm sure we're going
to get into it, even though we have moved forward
in leaps and bounds as a society and as a generation,
I think there are still a lot of people that
are open to hearing about it, but then still hold
their biases.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So that's why I think these conversations are so great.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
We're going to get into it all, but first we're
going to kick off with your most embarrassing story. Do
you have an accidentally unfiltered.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
My problem as a sex worker is choosing which embarrassing
unfiltered story to tell you. But oh, here, so that's
fairly benign. So one day I was expecting a client
and I was wearing this little neglige is nothing else,
and I thought I heard them and I poked my
head out the front door and it locked behind me.
Then my client had to help me go around the back,
(02:12):
which meant going like past a really busy street in
my little underwear and then around the back, and then
he had to lift me up to the tiny little
laundry window and push my bottom in the window. He
ended up putting his head on my bottom pushed me in,
and so he got a real view before before.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was not even paid, I might add, like a
little something.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I have so many questions because I think people have
an understanding or an idea of like why someone might
get into sex work, or the type of person that
might get into sex work, Like right, these are the
biases that we all live with.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Where were you at.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
In life and what was going on in your life
when you started to entertain the idea and what was
it that kind of made you go, okay, this is
something that I want to explore.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well. At the time, I was a single mom with
four kids, and I was part time. But nursing is
shift work around the clock, and putting four kids in
childcare around the clock was really expensive and hard work,
and I wasn't getting ahead, and so I was feeling
quite desperate for money, and I didn't want to work
more because then I wouldn't see my kids more and
(03:15):
I have to pay more childcare. So it was kind
of like a zero sum. So I was having a
lot of fun in my life. I was going to
swing as parties, and I was really learning about sex
for myself in a way that i'd never done before.
And I met a sex worker and I didn't ask
her anything about her life, but just the idea of
sex worker suddenly came to me. And I didn't know
(03:36):
any other sex workers. I didn't ask for any help,
which I do not recommend, but I just suddenly thought, well,
this will help me get out of trouble. And it
really did. And not just that, but I mean, I
loved it from the first day. And I think the
reason I loved it so much was because I'd had
all these stereotypical ideas about sex workers being victims and
(03:58):
clients being really rude and like making you do things
you didn't want to do, and that was just so
not what happened. Like the clients, they wanted me to
have a really nice time because that was going to
make them have a really nice time, and then I realized, oh,
I'm allowed to enjoy this, and then I let myself
enjoy this, and you know, I had all these orgasms,
(04:19):
and orgasms make you feel amazing and powerful, and feeling
like that at work was something for it. So I
just I just loved it from the day one. And
I think it was because I had all of these
negative stereotypes that I was comparing my experience to and yeah,
just it was a really good job. It still is
(04:41):
a really good job for me.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
I think it's important to note, and it's amazing that
you have had those experiences, but there's obviously a lot
of sex workers that go into sex work because they
feel pressured or this is the environment they feel like
they have to go into survive, and they don't have
just positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So I do want to say that as well.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
And it's amazing that you have had in Yeah, that
is absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think everyone enters sex work for money. How desperate
you are for that money has a lot to do
with how vulnerable you are to exploitation. Yeah, but the
answer is not to stop sex work. The answer is
to support people who were poor. Yeah, bed a blank.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
So when you say that you were like, Okay, I
wish I asked for help, but I didn't. You didn't
consult anyone in the industry. So then, how did you
physically start sex working? Was it something that we see
in the movies and you've been doing it for twenty years?
Did you have to go to an area or a
club that was known for it? Did you join a website?
Do you join like an industry?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
How does it work? From literally from go to woe?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, I wish I'd just walked into a brothel and
said how do I do this? So I wish I'd
gone to my local peer group work and said how
do you do this? But I didn't really do those things.
I talked to a friend about doing it at their house.
So I rented a house and I put an ad
in the payper because it was you know, it was
nearly twenty five years ago and what we did twenty
(06:00):
five years ago. So yeah, I just kind of thought
I'd do it my own way. I was. I was
almost scared of sex workers because that stereotical idea told
me that sex workers would be kind of nasty people
or something, you know, I was scared, but I was
scared of sex workers rather than scared of things that
maybe I should have been scared of, like maybe my
(06:23):
own ability to draw my boundaries or know what it
is that I wanted, Like I did have to learn
the hard way, and once I got involved with sex
working communities, I realized I wasn't different than other sex workers.
We all do the work for money, and whether or
not we enjoy it, it's really immaterial, like if we
are doing a job so and it doesn't make your
(06:44):
experience better or worse if you are enjoying it or
not just just a job.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's also interesting when you say that even for you
were like, maybe they're scary or these, it's because we
very much other it. We put it into a box
on the other side, and we have an impression of something.
But for the most for most people, most people have
no understanding of it because we have no exposure to it.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You said that you had.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
To learn the hard way how to implement boundaries and
what it is that you did or didn't want. I
can only imagine that the way that you went about
getting into the industry does expose you in a way
to things that could be unsafe or to learning an
industry kind of without having any guidelines or rules around it,
like how do you price it? How do you say
(07:27):
no when you're in a situation where you're one on
one with someone? What did those learning experiences look like
for you?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Pretty much like you just described, I did press myself
too low when I first started because I didn't do
enough research. And it was actually clients who told me
taught me more about the industry in the beginning, because
most clients are aware of who's around and when they
see a new person, they just really interested because you know,
(07:53):
new and different. And so I got a lot of
very experienced clients who taught me. Not all of them
taught me in positive ways. You know. Sometimes my boundaries
were overstepped. Sometimes I felt uncomfortable. I have felt scared,
But yeah, clients did teach me at first, and then
other sex workers when I got going.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
When you first started this, going from working as a nurse,
being a mom of for kids, being a single mum,
I can imagine that you were also struggling with your
own thoughts and conceptions around this. You did it for
so long in secret, didn't share your experiences with your family,
with your friends. What was that like when you finally
came out and told your family, told the people around
(08:33):
you that this is what you have been doing for
an occupation for so long.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
That is such a great question, because I've been out
as a sex worker for one hundred and fifty four
days now.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Congratulations, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I have quite a good perspective on that process. So yes,
at first I kept it a secret to absolutely protect
my children and myself for our safety. When people know
you're a sex worker, they think you're disposable and worth
less than other women. So that was definitely a safety
issue about keeping sex worker secret. What was it like
(09:06):
for me? I was very good at compartmentalizing. So one
day I'd be a whore and I'd be having so
much fun and role playing and just letting my personality go.
And then the next day I would be a nurse
and a mother and you know, in the kitchen. So
compartmentalization and that's something I found has been really quite
(09:27):
difficult for me in my process of coming out. Is
like breaking down those internal walls that were in there. Actually,
the response from people has been so positive that I
feel very validated. Yeah, it's been lovely. Actually telling my
kids was funny, though I did tell them about a
year ago, so they had time to prepare, and no,
they didn't know. They're all in their I have four
(09:47):
daughters in their thirties, they all have kids. I'm just
ad granny from the suburbs ps. But I love being
a granny and I love being suburban. And you know,
it's such a juxtaposition. There's such a tension between being
a granny and being a sex worker. But really, now
that I've all come together and in this one person,
(10:10):
it all makes sense to me. But yeah, my kids
were they were really surprised, but they were really surprised,
but they supported me fully, and our relationships have improved
so much since. It's been great.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I imagine it.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
I'm just trying to picture my like, because I'm in
my thirties, I'm trying to picture if my mom came
to me now and she was like, surprise, I've been
a sex worker for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'd be shook. Its Like I imagine that would have been
no judgment, but you'd be like whoa, Like how did
you keep that a secret? Like when you just think
your mom's got like Batman? You like Batman?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
That was exactly it. They were so more surprised that
I'd kept a secret, that the secret was that I
was a sex worker.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
But also amazing of you to have that insight and
the understanding of not the fact that it's you know,
it's not that you're internalizing as shameful, but you realize
the risk, the inherent risk because those real that are
involved are subject to the fact that there is still
this societal stigma around it. And protecting your family from that,
not just protecting yourself, but protecting your kids, protecting everybody
(11:11):
who's important to you, and creating a safe household is
something that's really admirable as well, because I think that
it's so easy to think that the only reason why
you're not telling everyone is because like, oh god, what's
everyone going to think of me? But there's so many
more layers to it than that.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, but you know, part of the reason I stayed nursing.
I stayed nursing for another ten years after I started
sex work because I was always thinking, well, if I
got at it as a sex worker, at least I
could say I was a nurse, Like that's the living
embodiment of the Madonnajod dichotomy. And I just really felt
like if I could challenge people with I'm a nurse,
(11:45):
I'm a good person, I'm a sex worker, I'm a
good person. I felt that was you know, I kept
doing a job that was heading my back and actually
breaking my spirit in many ways and costing me more
to go to work. I kept doing that because it
gave me that balance to my whore. Yeah, that was
part of my internalized shame.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I have to say, now, Hilary, what made you want
to get into the research side of things, because I
think that's something that sets you so apart in this
industry is not only are you, I mean not only
you doing the practical work, you're also doing the theoretical
side of it. But when you kind of got to
a point in your career that you realized, Okay, well,
so much of this is so impacted by the shame
(12:25):
and the societal expectations and standards around sex that you
wanted to move into doing sexology. You've studied it so thoroughly, Like,
what was it that made you want to look at
that side of this industry?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Well, the sexology was a no brainer, because I just
really love sex and want you to know everything about it.
I was quite frustrated because I feel like sex work
gave me far more knowledge than a course in a
master's course in sexology. But going into research was interesting
because I was asked to go into research and at
first I thought that meant that I was smart, like
I was flattered, But now I know that if you
complete a research project, the unit gets money from the government.
(13:01):
You get asked to do research so you can be
a cash cow. But that wasn't my real motivation. It
was really doctor Eleanor Jeffries, who is a sex working academic.
And I actually know at least forty academics in Australia
who are sex workers, so it's not like I'm very unique,
but it's a great club to be it. So doctor
(13:22):
Ellenor Jeffries said to me at a sex working event
that you know, there's a lot of bad research about
sex workers that starts from the premise that we're all victims,
Like what scale of victim are you? You know, because
no woman would choose that, And there's a lot of
research like that which is very damaging for us. And
so Ellen has said, well, you know, the only way
(13:43):
to really combat this is to infiltrate the system and
so I felt like a sex worker is the best
undercover agent. I should go in there and infiltrate academia
and do my own research. And so that was really
my motivation.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
What has been the breadth of experience that you have
provided or services you've provided in terms of did you
jump straight into sex or did you start with like
a girlfriend experience or did you start just escorting where
you would go to parties with people or you know,
we hear a lot of people that sort of edge
in punny not intended.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
There's so many gateway drugs in There's so many great
way drugs. Yeah, yeah, Well for me, I just kind
of thought from the beginning, actually I incorrectly thought that
I'm not a good actress, so I should be myself.
But actually I know I'm a good actress because I've
done enough real place to enjoy that part of myself.
(14:38):
But I wanted to do the girlfriend experience because it
felt congruent to me. And Bella Green, a beautiful sex worker,
wrote a book. She's not with us anymore, but she
wrote a beautiful book, Happy Endings, she wrote, and in
her book, it was a memoir about her entry into
sex work and the first part of the book is
quite sad because she's trying to be the sex worker
(14:58):
that doesn't really suit her, and you're kind of thinking, oh, gosh,
this isn't very good. But then then she she realizes
because she has this other personality as a comedian, and
when a client comes to her, especially because they know
that she's a comedian, then she goes, oh, so I
can be funny on the job. And then she just
(15:19):
became a comedian on the job and got known for that,
and she loves sex work so much more when she
realized she could do it in a way that suited her.
And that's how I did it. I the girlfriend experienced
suits me because I've always been very invested in relationships
with people, like even us now or you know, or
long term relationships like I love people and I love
(15:41):
forming relationship with people and learning from people, and so
the girlfriend experience really suited me in that way. And
also I hate putting a makeup, I hate washing clothes.
You know, I just do the laziest things possible because
that's what a girlfriend would do. Right.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's interesting, though, because you say that you you know
you care for people that you are invested in relationships
and invested in the connection, which I also think is
so evident in the fact that you're also a nurse.
You know, both roles, whether it's sex working or nursing,
fundamentally come down to caring for people. When you were
doing your own research and when you were unpacking the
(16:16):
ways in which you show up in your life, do
you see the link in there, so the psychology behind
how these things kind of interconnect.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I definitely do. I think eastygen has something to do
with it. Now. I actually think that the way women
are socialized from a young age to be careers, I
think I've really done that well. I've really taken on
that role of caring for others. I love children, I
love my grandchildren. I did child care before I did nursing.
I did counseling before I did nursing. So yeah, I've
(16:44):
always I've always wanted to be the helper and the
care And actually, when I started sex work, I realized
I could help people more doing sex work than nursing.
Because I don't know, Brittany, you could probably remember you
finish a busy shift and sometimes you think I didn't
help anyone today. I didn't make that bet I didn't
sign off on that form. I forgot to do that chart.
(17:05):
You know you just like you think of all the
things you didn't do. But after sex work, I think
to that client was he really sopped his gut stuff.
You know, he really spilled his guts when we finished
because he had that discussion for him that was really meaningful.
And I you know, those postcoitural moments, they're really vulnerable
for all genders, and it's a great opportunity to really
(17:26):
get into someone's head and to influence people. So I
actually felt like I helped people more in sex work
than any other job I've ever done.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Having said that, what do you think you've learned the
most over the years with the type of clientele that
you have coming through? Like, what would people be most
surprised to hear about your clientele having had.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Lots of genders as clients. I think people would be
most surprised to hear about the vulnerability that men feel,
because you know, they're not allowed to show that if
they're going to be masculine and buying sex is sexual
experiences is kind of very masculine in terms of what
people think, but it's actually quite a vulnerable place to
(18:08):
be to express what you want. That's why I'm so
good for women to know what they want and to
ask for it. But for men, I feel like, you know,
a lot of men cry a lot after sex, and
some of them will say that they really just love
their wives. They love their wives so much and they
don't want to be having sex with someone else, but
their wives have like shut up shop for whatever reason,
(18:30):
and they don't understand. Some of them hate their wives
because they're not having sex with them. But you know,
for either case, I can say in that post clotual moment,
when they're so receptive to new ideas, I can tell them.
Women are socialized about sex in such a different way
than men. We're shamed about sex before we're even born,
Like we're not allowed to be too sexy when we're
too and we're dancing to music. You know, we are
(18:53):
shamed out of being sexual in our bodies in a
way that really stays with us. We are rewarded for
withholding sex. We are rewarded for being so called virgins.
We are rewarded. So why would we then enter a
relationship and have sex forever with someone who didn't put
the garbage out like you know, I don't think men
(19:14):
really understand on mass that women have such a different
experience around what sex is for us and how we're
treated because of sex. I don't think men really understand.
And when I can tell them, it's not her fault
she doesn't have sex with you, it's not her fault.
I don't know anything about the situation. But why would
(19:34):
she want to have sex with you when sex has
been told to her as bad all this time in
her life? And maybe you've got young daughters and you're
trying to stop them from having sex with randoms or
be exposed to perhaps dangerous men, Like it's always been
sex for women has always been a danger, So why
(19:54):
would they suddenly change And why after so many years
would they still want to be doing this thing when
they've never really been able to choose sex for themselves,
They've always had sex done to them.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
There's also so many more layers to it than just
this idea of it being a danger.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But like I have friends.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Who don't want to have sex with their husbands because
their husbands are fucking lazy, and there's no like no
doubt that they're not aroused or they're not they don't
come home and feel like, oh, wow, that man who
does absolute jackshittll to help me with the kids.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I really want to dick it in, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like, there's so many layers to how our society sets
up the traditional roles of what women play within a
household and men play within the household, And at the
end of the day, it affects everyone, and it affects
all of our sex lives. Like no one's happy with
the way that patriarchy is set up the household dynamic.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Do you think you have more clients that are married
in relationships or unmarried?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Good question? How it says about fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I mean, I feel like that that's one of the
big things that people seem to get so aarked up
about is that there's like this injustice to sleep with
a married man. But it's also like I have no
prejudice against someone who is on the receiving end of
that because it's like you didn't marry you or not
in that wedding, Like you didn't make those vows. How
do you kind of combat that type of criticism?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Criticism like that comes from the person criticizing, and you know,
the other woman gets like in my private life, I've
entered lots of poly relationships and thruples and all sorts
of good times that I've had, But I've also been
accused of being the other woman many times. And just
as you said, I didn't choose to get married at
that time and be that person. But why does the
(21:30):
other woman like that? Is just an age old trick
to make men never be in trouble and women always
be in trouble. Why should women be shamed for sex
and men not? Like that? Is how I think about
it For myself, I think the idea that sex is
so sacred. I wish people would talk about it more.
I wish couples would have each other's blessings to go elsewhere,
(21:52):
because you don't own someone else's sexuality even if you
marry them, And if you've made an agreement and it's
with words, then that's what you're doing, is betraying someone's trust.
But if you make an agreement that one person doesn't
want to have sex anymore, but they don't own the
other and the other can go elsewhere, then that would
(22:13):
be the ideal situation. I think if.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
That were the case, I'd love to talk about what
relationships have looked like for you over the last twenty
years since you've entered the sex work industry, because I
imagine it would be more difficult to find someone that
you can have a proper relationship with that is also
completely okay with you living this other life. You know,
it's not an everyday thing that we see. What's it
been like for you. Have you had relationships over this
(22:37):
time and how have you managed them?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, I've had heaps of relationships over this time, and
they're very fluid. I prefer relationships with women at this
stage of my life, which I think is actually more
difficult to find a woman okay with my works. I
do have to do a lot of work unless my
partner is a sex worker, which short cuts a lot
of bullshit. But you do have to make sure that
(22:58):
someone's not going to shame you, yeah, for something you've done.
And because society tells everyone that sex is bad and
that sex work is a bad you know, there are
people who are going to be really destructive if you
get into a relationship with them, and it is difficult
to know at first whether someone's going to have the
right attitude. But I think now with all my experience,
(23:21):
I wouldn't even want a friendship with someone who is
disrespectful about my work.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Well, I wouldn't have thought when I asked the question.
To be honest, I didn't have shame as the feeling
in my mind. I had more jealousy, Like more thought
it would be difficult. Yeah, I didn't think that you'd
be having a partner that would be shaming you, because
if you were at the point that you're in a relationship,
I imagine they would have known and been okay with it.
I would have thought the stronger feeling would be jealousy
knowing that your partner was having these experiences with someone else.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That is so interesting because I can't honestly say that
I understand jealousy from a personal perspective, Like I know
it from an intellectual and I've done a lot of
reading about it, but I don't feel it for myself,
which is why it's so easy for me to be Polly.
I now wouldn't date someone who's not Polly to start with, Like,
(24:08):
I don't want to train up another poly because it's
a real lot of work and that's not my work
to do. So yeah, jealousy is something that i've because
I don't experience it. I also don't tolerate it. So
if someone expresses a jealousy, then it's not on.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
It's so fascinating because jealousy also comes from like a
slight sense of ownership, right, Like, you're jealous because you
feel an entitlement to that person and to the decisions
that you've made in your relationship. But I guess if
you come to your relationships with the expectations that things
are more fluid and things are more open, it is
I guess like the conversations that have to surround it
(24:47):
are also more open. But I do find it fascinating
that you say that it's not an emotion you experience,
because I've never heard anyone, even the people that we've
spoken to who have been polly or in different relationship
dynamics that are not monoch mess still a lot of
them say that, you know, jealousy is a thing that
they manage in different ways, but it's not something that's
(25:07):
completely avoid from their relationships.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, I think you're right. I have spoken about this,
like most of my partners say they have felt jealous
in the past about different things. But I realized that
other people do feel this emotion, and that's why intellectualize it.
That's why I've done, you know, my work in finding
out what is this jealousy? Like, I really love The
(25:31):
Ethical Slut Dossie Eastman and Tanna Hardy. It was like
my Bible came out in nineteen ninety seven and they
have actually two or three chapters on dealing with jealousy.
You know, I've got I've got every marriage counseling book
in the world, and there very few of them even
mentioned the word jealousy, let alone have a chapter, but
the Ethical Slut does. So what does that tell us
(25:52):
about how having lots of different experiences is so beneficial
to how we feel about ourselves and how we are
able to understand others.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Hillary, you speak about slut phobia and horphobia, tell us
a little bit about what they are.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, horphobia is just slot phobia di up because whres
are treated badly in order to warn all women not
to be sluts based on like homophobia, Like it's a
fear of someone who's different than you, and the reason
we slut shame is to increase that fear so that
women will be put in their place right so it's
(26:28):
so detrimental to all women, but they're all men, Like
all people who want to have sex with women are
also disadvantaged. You know, a couple of weeks ago, somebody
who murdered two sex workers got a sentence of manslaughter
in a plea bargain, Like, how are we worth less
than other people? Like if we all want to be
(26:49):
part of the solution, we've got to, you know, change
the way we use the words slut and whore and
see it as a really positive thing. See sex as positive,
see women sexless positive, seat sexual experience as positive skills. Well,
you can have pleasure in yourself and give yourself an
antidepressant and give yourself an anti anxiety drug just like that,
(27:11):
or you can give pleasure to someone else and help
them feel those wonderful things. Sex is so good for us,
we should be really celebrating it. And that means we've
got to make those words mean something else. We can't
just make them go away because they'll always be there.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
How do we change the meaning of the words, Like
what is the next step then? And able to support
this in terms of in terms of rewriting the social
stands and expectations on how people are treated and how
we internalize shame around sex, Like, what are the next steps?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about
the next steps. I would really love the social movement
hashtag slut two to take off every single one of us,
just like in the Me Too movement, that shows that
we're not afraid of being called a slut, we are
proud of these words. Then that makes it easier for
every single one of us, for all the others, you know.
(28:03):
So I would love to see a movement like that
take off where just people are so proud. I'm not
the first person to come up with the idea of
reclaiming the word slut or the action of being a slut,
but I think that now is a really the right
time because women's sexual pleasure is in the news, it's everywhere,
and we've really reached this moment where we can't sort
(28:26):
of take that back, we can't pretend that's not real,
and so the logic of celebrating sex the time is right.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
It is a scary space when you say that, though,
as well, because as much as it is one step
in the direction, you're also pushing up against people who
have these very firm ideas, and so it is scary
to be a pioneer in a space. Your experiences, and
some of the more frightening sexual experiences that you've had
are also come from a byproduct of being loud and
(28:56):
visible and being proud of being in the space that
you're in. And so there's always a part of me
that goes like for and I think about like young
girls who are like, you know what, I'm a slot
and I'm proud, and I'm in no way like I
know that it needs the kids need to shift, but
I also get worried about them shifting in a society
where there's so many men who don't respect women, because
(29:18):
I worry about like who has to go first? You
know what I mean by that. It's just it's a
scary space to be the pioneer.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
What you're saying is it could be dangerous to be
a slut, which is absolutely true, and it's not something
that you've created. You're not inflicting the danger just by
saying this is dangerous. Absolutely And this is the reason
we protect young girls too, and we don't want them
to be sexual in public because we're trying to protect them.
We don't want them to be hurt. But the thing is,
we just have to start somewhere. And like, I mean,
(29:48):
we saw that with the Me Too movement that like
I was actually afraid to say me too, like I've
you know, obviously I have experienced this, and I have
every right to say me too. But you know, as
a sex worker, that's more dangerous than for other women.
A lot of there's a book called We two about
sex workers experience as of assault because they didn't feel
(30:09):
comfortable in the Me too movement. But in the main,
the Me Too movement was something that we only drew
courage from each other.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
Yeah, it was the numbers when it was millions, When
it was millions of women in days we're doing it,
We're like, right, I'm with them, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
So I think that's the same with the confronting the
actual reality that it is more dangerous to be a
slat and to be considered worth less than other women.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But it's the only way for annecting change, That's right.
There is almost still a different caliber of like okay,
well there's only fans accounts, and then there's still your
traditional sex work, and there's still a bit of a
caveat between how society used the two. What are your
thoughts on, for example, Only Fans and how there has
been that online shift and conversation happening.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Positive consequence of the pandemic is the number of people
that went on to only fans. And the thing about
OnlyFans is it's face out, Like it's really hard to
be anonymous with an only Fans account, regardless of what
it's for. And you know, everyone's going to think you
are having erotic services if you're on only Fans, because
that's how Only Fans really took off as a platform.
(31:22):
It's not the case anymore that there are other users.
But yeah, the fact that so many people took up
sex work face out on a digital platform during the
pandemic has actually made it a lot easier for other
sex workers to come out. Like, thank you to all
of those sex workers and all the sex workers before
me who came out. It was hard for me to
come out, but it was much easier because I've seen
(31:43):
other sex workers do it and be okay. So yeah,
I think, I think you're right. Has changed the conversation
quite a lot, and I think mainly because a digital platform,
face out means it's much harder to hide.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So do you and how do you vet new clients?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I'm not seeing new clients at the moment, just in
a little tip for all those.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah to jump on.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
My books are closed. Yeah, but how would I screen?
I would take the advice of lots of other sex workers,
and we actually keep our screening methods amongst ourselves. We
keep it private because if people realize exactly how we screen,
then they will find a way around. And we are
constantly updating the way we screen and the tools we use.
(32:36):
The way we share information is constantly changing also because
digital platforms are constantly changing. Yeah, but we do that
to protect each other.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
That's fascinating. I wouldn't have thought of that. I mean,
obviously it makes perfect sense, but I wouldn't have thought
that there is like this, you know, secret conversation that's
going on amongst how to how to keep yourself safe,
because it is an important part of the conversation, but
it's something that you have to take so much agency for.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That's right. There's a wonderful podcast, Someone you Love. I
think it's someone you pot in the actual URL, but
it's called someone you Love by Jenna Love, a very
proud sex worker who happens to be the president of
Scarlet Alliance, the national peer group for sex workers, and
their podcast has and also on social media. They do
(33:22):
a lot of promotion about exactly how sex work works
and you know what's happening today, and you know, if
you're interested in the work or are you're interested in
ideas around how all these things happen, that podcast is
a must listen.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Hillary, What do you love about it? What about the
industry is it that you were like, if you can choose,
I mean, obviously you have the choice of working in
many different industries, So what is it about this industry
that you're like, Actually, this is exactly what I want
to be doing.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I got to say it gets down to basics of
money and orgasms.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Which checks out.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
But I kind of like the status like I'm a
granti and I am a sex worker. Like I kind
of like that I challenge people just by my existence.
I don't even have to say anything.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
What's your age range of clients?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Now that you say you're a granny is the age like,
what's the youngest clients that you have?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
In the oldest clients that you have, I.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Still have clients that started to see me when they
were eighteen and they are now in their mid twenties.
So I have a couple of clients like that, And
basically those clients come because they want to learn about sex,
and some of them have disabilities, so they're not going
to meet people otherwise. But I also have clients well
(34:37):
into their eighties. Some people still have a really good
or rectol function at that age and some don't. But
the penetrative sex is not necessarily a goal. Once people
get older and they realize that there is so much
more to a social experience than putting something in something.
Once they realize that sex is so much more wholesome
(34:59):
than that, then age doesn't matter or ability doesn't matter.
So yeah, I have many clients into their eighties. I'm
not sure if i've had one in their nineties, but
it's been pretty close. Like a few of my clients
have died from age related illnesses. Like they're old. It's
been lovely to look after them until that time. A
couple of them, I've even wanted to go to their funerals,
(35:21):
but I haven't because you know, you do develop close
relationships with people that are really quite lovely.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I can just imagine you standing around the cucumber sandwiches
at the way and people are like, how did you
know jack.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
And they're like, well, I am passed away in my bed.
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Do you think do you think your perception around sex
and like the shame that you may have carried, or
the thoughts that you had earlier on in your like
when you started, how have they shifted throughout your life
and when did you start to see the most significant changes.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I think that I was pretty lucky to escape a
lot of the shaming when I was a kid. Partly
was because we weren't really allowed to watch much television
and I was allowed to read books. So I was
reading Jackie Collins Belly of the Dolls while I well
before I even had thought about being sexual myself, and
(36:16):
I read The Happy Hookah before i'd become sexual myself.
And I really did fantasize about being a sex worker
when I was a young teen. So I don't know
that I carried the same shame that a lot of
people have been inflicted with. But of course I am
a member of society that has that shame on mass,
so I think I was very open about having sexual
(36:39):
experiences before I married, and then when I was married,
I was very married. I was very much in the
gender role of being the wife and the mother, and
that suited me for a while. But when it didn't
suit me, like I was married for fifteen years, had
the four children, as soon as I stopped being married,
I wanted to experiment again. And as soon as I
(37:01):
started experimenting, and it was just too good. I mean,
my body told me. I've just felt like my body
knows more than the rest of the world combined. You know,
when my body tells me this was good, I'm going
to go with that.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
We spoke to Angela White, who's one of the world's
classified as like one of the best in the world
in her industry of porn, and she said the same thing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
She said since she was a.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Teenager, she knew that that's what she wanted to do
before she was having these sexual experiences. She's like, I
knew I had the interest. I was so sexual. I
wanted to go and learn, and she did the second
she turned eighteen. Off she went and so, I feel
like when you said that, I resonated a lot with Angela.
What do you think would be the strangest request you've had.
You said, you do a lot of role play, Like
is there what's the most common role play scene and
(37:44):
the stranger's request.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
I would have to say that that is the most
common question and also the one that I struggle the
most to answer, because I don't know. Some of my
weirdest sex experiences have been outside of sex work. You'd
probably be surprised with how and regular.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Sex work can be, which is fine if that's the answer.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, I really don't know. I mean, I have one
client who's intellectually impaired and he just likes to roll
between the nurse, the teacher, and the dominatrix. But really
it's the same service. Don't tell him, but the same
every time.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
It's funny you say this because that's exactly what Angela said.
But Angela was also like, when you worked in the
industry that I've worked in for so long, She's like,
there is no strange request because everything, She's like, even
the requests that might be strange to you, are now
so ordinary to me that I don't see it with
the same sort of like all scandal perception around it.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
No, but she said, she's like, it's not strange to her,
but there is out of the ordinaries. One of hers
was that this one particular person wants to be really little,
Like he wants to be two centimeters tall, and she
has to pick him up and put him in the
pocket and things like that, Like there are some very
specific role playing that people like I always find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, I really I'm interested in.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Like, what do you think of the biggest misconceptions that
people have around their views of sex work? And one
of the ones that comes to mind, and I think,
especially when you talk about how you had four kids
and your nursing, my thought is that when you don't
tell people or when you've got young kids, especially, that
the instant thought is like, oh, you can't be a
(39:21):
good mum and also be a sex worker. Like these
are the types of like unfounded thoughts that people have,
which comes with the stigma that surrounds sex work. What
do you think of the biggest misconceptions of people who
work within the industry and of the friends and the
community that you've built around yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, the misconceptions are that you're a different type of person.
But let me tell you a story that illustrates your
question and points so much. One day, I was waiting
for a client and I was completely naked because then
I didn't have to wash any clothes so much more
hate I am. Yeah, so I'm completely naked. I'm wait
(40:00):
for this client and my my private phone rings and
I'm like, oh, she hit no my private phone. I'm
gonna have to change my name. I'm gonna have to
change my persona. So I answer my private phone really
quickly and say hello Hillary speaking like remember who you are, girl,
And it's the school counselor and I'm like, oh, it's
my daughter. Okay, you know what's going on? And she says,
oh no, your daughter's fine. She just came in to
(40:20):
talk to me. But it was you that I was
calling about, you know. I just really wanted to see
how you are. And I'm like, oh, okay, why and
she said, oh, well, your daughter said that you started
pole dancing and I was like, oh yeah, it's the
best sport I'm getting abs. It's really fun. And she's
like oh that's okay then and hangs up, and I'm like,
(40:41):
hang on a minute, I'm stackers. When did to fuck someone?
And you're worried about but you're not worried anymore. And
I was just like, why do.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You think she called? Why do you think she was?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
She thought I was stripping. She thought it because you know,
I'm a single mom, so obviously I'm stripping. But you know,
she's got a check in to make sure that the
kids aren't being exposed to what I'm doing. Like, you know,
she just made that assumption, even though she was actually
not as right as she could have been, Like, but
(41:16):
I'll be entitled to private lives, Like you know, I
just thought it's so ridiculous. Yeah, really, And that gave
me a lot of a lot of stuff to laugh
about for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
That one you just reminded me of not that long ago.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Last year, we were having this conversation and it sort
of was sweeping her doing the rounds online, the idea
that this like I think it was a teacher specifically,
but a teacher got stood down because she was she
had an only fans, That's right, she had only fans,
and she kept her private life separate. But obviously, kids
being kids, they do googles and they found it. It
started this whole discussion about the fact that teachers are
(41:51):
nurses and people that are in this caregiving roles or
public facing roles, government roles shouldn't have access to this
separate life. Obviously, I know your opinion on it because
you do both simultaneously. But do you remember that conversation
and what are your thoughts about teachers having like trying
to attempt to have a separate online OnlyFans account then
(42:13):
one day and then the next day they can go
and teach, you know, twelve and under.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
It doesn't change who you are at all. This conversation
happens every day. There are people discriminating against for their
sexuality every single day. I can't actually be a police officer.
I can't be a lawyer. You know, I might have
difficulty getting a security check, you know, government department if
I wanted to be a public servant. There are so
(42:37):
many jobs and so many ways of discriminating against sex
workers and people who are sexual that aren't written into law.
That's called stigma and discrimination. And it is so rife
that this is the whole point of my winning to
fight against that. I don't think people realize how much
sex workers are discriminated against in everyday lives.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, well, it's not even legally in every state is
it No.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
No, it's in South Australia. It's still completely illegal. You know,
there were many challenges to criminalize it. Further crazy that
we fight all the time. Western Australia is partly criminalized,
Tasmania is partly criminalized. Act Here where I am, it's legalized,
which is actually bad too, because if you legalize something,
(43:24):
you define it, and if you define it, there's going
to be people outside of your definition, it's a very
broad brush, so it's impossible to define. So we sex
workers demand a decriminalization model because we don't want laws
that are specific to us. We don't need laws that
are specific. We want to be treated like workers, like
(43:47):
every other. We want to be included in health and
safety regulations, we want to be included in all the
other ways that businesses are controlled and regulated, and we
don't think we need anything specific. There are no situations
that are specific to sex work that should be legislated against.
So yeah, it's but that's saying that we also are
(44:11):
fighting for antidiscrimination laws or regulations so that we can
be protected through discrimination as well as through not having
bad laws. Most of Australia, like New South Wales, has
been decriminalized for nearly thirty years and the size of
the industry has not increased. The numbers of people who
(44:31):
are exploited in the industry have not increased. In fact,
sex workers are safer under decriminalized models, and that's been
shown in New South Wales with lots and lots of data.
So now that Victoria, New South Wales, Northern Territory and
Queensland are decriminalized in different ways, there are still laws
that are difficult because sex working laws infiltrate, like advertising
(44:55):
laws and like so many different aspects of how we
live are regulated by laws, and the way we have
sex is regulated by laws in lots of ways that
people don't really understand. So decriminalization is not simply saying oh,
let's just remove a law, it'll be done. It's a
(45:15):
very complicated process and so it's different in every area.
So it's still difficult to work legally. Like when I
was working in Northern Territory before decrim came in, there
was this law that said you couldn't receive a phone
call for a booking for a sex working booking at
the same place where you do the booking. It's something
like they didn't want to establish agencies brothels. They they
(45:40):
didn't want brothels where people would just rock up and
make an appointment. So they said, okay, So there was
this law. It was like one hundred years old or something.
But it meant that if I wanted to work in there,
I would just run outside and answer my phone and
then I'd run back inside ready to get ready for
the booking. And then I was like, this is ridiculous.
So I was taking the phone call illegally. How ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
It's ridiculous, especially there's so many run out in the
front to answer the call and run back in.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, And I understand that there is probably a lot
more legislation around how it can be advertised, how you
can solicit for customers, which even like working in radio,
there's lots of laws around talking about anything that's too
sexual because it then can you know, it's different timeslots
all that sort of stuff. I would understand that there
must be legislation around advertising for you as well.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, like in Queensland prior to d crem
coming in. And the other thing about criminalization is that
the police are the people who maintain the law or
enact the laws, so then sex workers are policed, which
is not good. So in Queensland they've got different laws,
and every state has different laws about what you can
(46:50):
say in your advertising. But now that we have websites
that are global, I might say that I'm sexy on
my website, but if I go to Queensland to work,
then that would actually put me in breach before d
Crimp would have put me in breach of the law.
And I do know a sex worker who has been
charged with incorrect advertising and had her phone, laptop, money
(47:15):
stolen by police because crime, like you know, that's just
being targeted, that's that's just being discriminated against because you're
a sex worker. But they had the law on their side.
So yeah, bad laws through advertising will also affect sex
workers exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And also I can imagine that it must be such
a challenging industry when like a lot of people who
were in it, who maybe already disadvantage to then have
their accessibility, their phones, their money and everything else taken away.
Like what a horrific cycle it creates.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Yeah, at a level of difficulty if you're a migrant
and you've come here out of there.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, Heley thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
It's truly a pleasure to speak to you. It's so
insightful and the my favorite part of doing this podcast
is being able to give people like you a platform
and educate us, educate us on a world that we
don't know about, a world that is still taboo, and
a world that we think we would love to help
normalize as well. So thank you for coming on today.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Thank you so much, thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
We are going to link doctor Hilary Coldwell's book Seluttum
Reclaiming Shame, Free Sexuality and all her socials in our
show notes, So if you want to go find more,
if you want to read the book, if you want
to get amongst it, everything will be there.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Thank you,
This episode was recorded on cameragle Land. Hi guys, and
welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittney.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Now, when it comes to topics like pleasure and sex,
we all have very different biases and shames that we
carry with us, and I think it's really difficult for
us to distance ourselves from the conditioning of the societal
values that we've grown up with. But I think this
episode is definitely one that's going to make you evaluate
your thoughts on sex, shame and empowerment. Joining the podcast
today is sexologist and academic doctor Hillary Caldwell. Hillary was
(00:39):
a sex worker and is a sex worker. However, it
was in secret for twenty years. She kept this as
a double life from her friends and also her family.
She didn't have any of the stereotypes that seemed to
surround women for their reasons of getting into the sex
work industry, and she certainly didn't need to be saved
from it. Hillary has used her experiences in the industry
alongside her research, to un why we feel so much
(01:01):
internal shame when it comes to sex. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you so much, Laura.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
This is a subject that I think our generation. When
we grew up, it was taboo. It was very hush hush.
You didn't know anyone that had done it. You wouldn't
hear anyone talk so openly about it.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think it still is in a lot of ways,
though I think where you know, we've made some headway,
but it's definitely still it still carries with it a
lot of like question marks when people do talk about
it openly.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
It is and even though and I'm sure we're going
to get into it, even though we have moved forward
in leaps and bounds as a society and as a generation,
I think there are still a lot of people that
are open to hearing about it, but then still hold
their biases.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So that's why I think these conversations are so great.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
We're going to get into it all, but first we're
going to kick off with your most embarrassing story. Do
you have an accidentally unfiltered.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
My problem as a sex worker is choosing which embarrassing
unfiltered story to tell you. But oh, here, so that's
fairly benign. So one day I was expecting a client
and I was wearing this little neglige is nothing else,
and I thought I heard them and I poked my
head out the front door and it locked behind me.
Then my client had to help me go around the back,
(02:12):
which meant going like past a really busy street in
my little underwear and then around the back, and then
he had to lift me up to the tiny little
laundry window and push my bottom in the window. He
ended up putting his head on my bottom pushed me in,
and so he got a real view before before.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was not even paid, I might add, like a
little something.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I have so many questions because I think people have
an understanding or an idea of like why someone might
get into sex work, or the type of person that
might get into sex work, Like right, these are the
biases that we all live with.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Where were you at.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
In life and what was going on in your life
when you started to entertain the idea and what was
it that kind of made you go, okay, this is
something that I want to explore.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well. At the time, I was a single mom with
four kids, and I was part time. But nursing is
shift work around the clock, and putting four kids in
childcare around the clock was really expensive and hard work,
and I wasn't getting ahead, and so I was feeling
quite desperate for money, and I didn't want to work
more because then I wouldn't see my kids more and
(03:15):
I have to pay more childcare. So it was kind
of like a zero sum. So I was having a
lot of fun in my life. I was going to
swing as parties, and I was really learning about sex
for myself in a way that i'd never done before.
And I met a sex worker and I didn't ask
her anything about her life, but just the idea of
sex worker suddenly came to me. And I didn't know
(03:36):
any other sex workers. I didn't ask for any help,
which I do not recommend, but I just suddenly thought, well,
this will help me get out of trouble. And it
really did. And not just that, but I mean, I
loved it from the first day. And I think the
reason I loved it so much was because I'd had
all these stereotypical ideas about sex workers being victims and
(03:58):
clients being really rude and like making you do things
you didn't want to do, and that was just so
not what happened. Like the clients, they wanted me to
have a really nice time because that was going to
make them have a really nice time, and then I realized, oh,
I'm allowed to enjoy this, and then I let myself
enjoy this, and you know, I had all these orgasms,
(04:19):
and orgasms make you feel amazing and powerful, and feeling
like that at work was something for it. So I
just I just loved it from the day one. And
I think it was because I had all of these
negative stereotypes that I was comparing my experience to and yeah,
just it was a really good job. It still is
(04:41):
a really good job for me.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
I think it's important to note, and it's amazing that
you have had those experiences, but there's obviously a lot
of sex workers that go into sex work because they
feel pressured or this is the environment they feel like
they have to go into survive, and they don't have
just positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So I do want to say that as well.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
And it's amazing that you have had in Yeah, that
is absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think everyone enters sex work for money. How desperate
you are for that money has a lot to do
with how vulnerable you are to exploitation. Yeah, but the
answer is not to stop sex work. The answer is
to support people who were poor. Yeah, bed a blank.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
So when you say that you were like, Okay, I
wish I asked for help, but I didn't. You didn't
consult anyone in the industry. So then, how did you
physically start sex working? Was it something that we see
in the movies and you've been doing it for twenty years?
Did you have to go to an area or a
club that was known for it? Did you join a website?
Do you join like an industry?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
How does it work? From literally from go to woe?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, I wish I'd just walked into a brothel and
said how do I do this? So I wish I'd
gone to my local peer group work and said how
do you do this? But I didn't really do those things.
I talked to a friend about doing it at their house.
So I rented a house and I put an ad
in the payper because it was you know, it was
nearly twenty five years ago and what we did twenty
(06:00):
five years ago. So yeah, I just kind of thought
I'd do it my own way. I was. I was
almost scared of sex workers because that stereotical idea told
me that sex workers would be kind of nasty people
or something, you know, I was scared, but I was
scared of sex workers rather than scared of things that
maybe I should have been scared of, like maybe my
(06:23):
own ability to draw my boundaries or know what it
is that I wanted, Like I did have to learn
the hard way, and once I got involved with sex
working communities, I realized I wasn't different than other sex workers.
We all do the work for money, and whether or
not we enjoy it, it's really immaterial, like if we
are doing a job so and it doesn't make your
(06:44):
experience better or worse if you are enjoying it or
not just just a job.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's also interesting when you say that even for you
were like, maybe they're scary or these, it's because we
very much other it. We put it into a box
on the other side, and we have an impression of something.
But for the most for most people, most people have
no understanding of it because we have no exposure to it.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You said that you had.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
To learn the hard way how to implement boundaries and
what it is that you did or didn't want. I
can only imagine that the way that you went about
getting into the industry does expose you in a way
to things that could be unsafe or to learning an
industry kind of without having any guidelines or rules around it,
like how do you price it? How do you say
(07:27):
no when you're in a situation where you're one on
one with someone? What did those learning experiences look like
for you?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Pretty much like you just described, I did press myself
too low when I first started because I didn't do
enough research. And it was actually clients who told me
taught me more about the industry in the beginning, because
most clients are aware of who's around and when they
see a new person, they just really interested because you know,
(07:53):
new and different. And so I got a lot of
very experienced clients who taught me. Not all of them
taught me in positive ways. You know. Sometimes my boundaries
were overstepped. Sometimes I felt uncomfortable. I have felt scared,
But yeah, clients did teach me at first, and then
other sex workers when I got going.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
When you first started this, going from working as a nurse,
being a mom of for kids, being a single mum,
I can imagine that you were also struggling with your
own thoughts and conceptions around this. You did it for
so long in secret, didn't share your experiences with your family,
with your friends. What was that like when you finally
came out and told your family, told the people around
(08:33):
you that this is what you have been doing for
an occupation for so long.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
That is such a great question, because I've been out
as a sex worker for one hundred and fifty four
days now.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Congratulations, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I have quite a good perspective on that process. So yes,
at first I kept it a secret to absolutely protect
my children and myself for our safety. When people know
you're a sex worker, they think you're disposable and worth
less than other women. So that was definitely a safety
issue about keeping sex worker secret. What was it like
(09:06):
for me? I was very good at compartmentalizing. So one
day I'd be a whore and I'd be having so
much fun and role playing and just letting my personality go.
And then the next day I would be a nurse
and a mother and you know, in the kitchen. So
compartmentalization and that's something I found has been really quite
(09:27):
difficult for me in my process of coming out. Is
like breaking down those internal walls that were in there. Actually,
the response from people has been so positive that I
feel very validated. Yeah, it's been lovely. Actually telling my
kids was funny, though I did tell them about a
year ago, so they had time to prepare, and no,
they didn't know. They're all in their I have four
(09:47):
daughters in their thirties, they all have kids. I'm just
ad granny from the suburbs ps. But I love being
a granny and I love being suburban. And you know,
it's such a juxtaposition. There's such a tension between being
a granny and being a sex worker. But really, now
that I've all come together and in this one person,
(10:10):
it all makes sense to me. But yeah, my kids
were they were really surprised, but they were really surprised,
but they supported me fully, and our relationships have improved
so much since. It's been great.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I imagine it.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
I'm just trying to picture my like, because I'm in
my thirties, I'm trying to picture if my mom came
to me now and she was like, surprise, I've been
a sex worker for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'd be shook. Its Like I imagine that would have been
no judgment, but you'd be like whoa, Like how did
you keep that a secret? Like when you just think
your mom's got like Batman? You like Batman?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
That was exactly it. They were so more surprised that
I'd kept a secret, that the secret was that I
was a sex worker.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
But also amazing of you to have that insight and
the understanding of not the fact that it's you know,
it's not that you're internalizing as shameful, but you realize
the risk, the inherent risk because those real that are
involved are subject to the fact that there is still
this societal stigma around it. And protecting your family from that,
not just protecting yourself, but protecting your kids, protecting everybody
(11:11):
who's important to you, and creating a safe household is
something that's really admirable as well, because I think that
it's so easy to think that the only reason why
you're not telling everyone is because like, oh god, what's
everyone going to think of me? But there's so many
more layers to it than that.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, but you know, part of the reason I stayed nursing.
I stayed nursing for another ten years after I started
sex work because I was always thinking, well, if I
got at it as a sex worker, at least I
could say I was a nurse, Like that's the living
embodiment of the Madonnajod dichotomy. And I just really felt
like if I could challenge people with I'm a nurse,
(11:45):
I'm a good person, I'm a sex worker, I'm a
good person. I felt that was you know, I kept
doing a job that was heading my back and actually
breaking my spirit in many ways and costing me more
to go to work. I kept doing that because it
gave me that balance to my whore. Yeah, that was
part of my internalized shame.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I have to say, now, Hilary, what made you want
to get into the research side of things, because I
think that's something that sets you so apart in this
industry is not only are you, I mean not only
you doing the practical work, you're also doing the theoretical
side of it. But when you kind of got to
a point in your career that you realized, Okay, well,
so much of this is so impacted by the shame
(12:25):
and the societal expectations and standards around sex that you
wanted to move into doing sexology. You've studied it so thoroughly, Like,
what was it that made you want to look at
that side of this industry?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Well, the sexology was a no brainer, because I just
really love sex and want you to know everything about it.
I was quite frustrated because I feel like sex work
gave me far more knowledge than a course in a
master's course in sexology. But going into research was interesting
because I was asked to go into research and at
first I thought that meant that I was smart, like
I was flattered, But now I know that if you
complete a research project, the unit gets money from the government.
(13:01):
You get asked to do research so you can be
a cash cow. But that wasn't my real motivation. It
was really doctor Eleanor Jeffries, who is a sex working academic.
And I actually know at least forty academics in Australia
who are sex workers, so it's not like I'm very unique,
but it's a great club to be it. So doctor
(13:22):
Ellenor Jeffries said to me at a sex working event
that you know, there's a lot of bad research about
sex workers that starts from the premise that we're all victims,
Like what scale of victim are you? You know, because
no woman would choose that, And there's a lot of
research like that which is very damaging for us. And
so Ellen has said, well, you know, the only way
(13:43):
to really combat this is to infiltrate the system and
so I felt like a sex worker is the best
undercover agent. I should go in there and infiltrate academia
and do my own research. And so that was really
my motivation.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
What has been the breadth of experience that you have
provided or services you've provided in terms of did you
jump straight into sex or did you start with like
a girlfriend experience or did you start just escorting where
you would go to parties with people or you know,
we hear a lot of people that sort of edge
in punny not intended.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
There's so many gateway drugs in There's so many great
way drugs. Yeah, yeah, Well for me, I just kind
of thought from the beginning, actually I incorrectly thought that
I'm not a good actress, so I should be myself.
But actually I know I'm a good actress because I've
done enough real place to enjoy that part of myself.
(14:38):
But I wanted to do the girlfriend experience because it
felt congruent to me. And Bella Green, a beautiful sex worker,
wrote a book. She's not with us anymore, but she
wrote a beautiful book, Happy Endings, she wrote, and in
her book, it was a memoir about her entry into
sex work and the first part of the book is
quite sad because she's trying to be the sex worker
(14:58):
that doesn't really suit her, and you're kind of thinking, oh, gosh,
this isn't very good. But then then she she realizes
because she has this other personality as a comedian, and
when a client comes to her, especially because they know
that she's a comedian, then she goes, oh, so I
can be funny on the job. And then she just
(15:19):
became a comedian on the job and got known for that,
and she loves sex work so much more when she
realized she could do it in a way that suited her.
And that's how I did it. I the girlfriend experienced
suits me because I've always been very invested in relationships
with people, like even us now or you know, or
long term relationships like I love people and I love
(15:41):
forming relationship with people and learning from people, and so
the girlfriend experience really suited me in that way. And
also I hate putting a makeup, I hate washing clothes.
You know, I just do the laziest things possible because
that's what a girlfriend would do. Right.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's interesting, though, because you say that you you know
you care for people that you are invested in relationships
and invested in the connection, which I also think is
so evident in the fact that you're also a nurse.
You know, both roles, whether it's sex working or nursing,
fundamentally come down to caring for people. When you were
doing your own research and when you were unpacking the
(16:16):
ways in which you show up in your life, do
you see the link in there, so the psychology behind
how these things kind of interconnect.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I definitely do. I think eastygen has something to do
with it. Now. I actually think that the way women
are socialized from a young age to be careers, I
think I've really done that well. I've really taken on
that role of caring for others. I love children, I
love my grandchildren. I did child care before I did nursing.
I did counseling before I did nursing. So yeah, I've
(16:44):
always I've always wanted to be the helper and the
care And actually, when I started sex work, I realized
I could help people more doing sex work than nursing.
Because I don't know, Brittany, you could probably remember you
finish a busy shift and sometimes you think I didn't
help anyone today. I didn't make that bet I didn't
sign off on that form. I forgot to do that chart.
(17:05):
You know you just like you think of all the
things you didn't do. But after sex work, I think
to that client was he really sopped his gut stuff.
You know, he really spilled his guts when we finished
because he had that discussion for him that was really meaningful.
And I you know, those postcoitural moments, they're really vulnerable
for all genders, and it's a great opportunity to really
(17:26):
get into someone's head and to influence people. So I
actually felt like I helped people more in sex work
than any other job I've ever done.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Having said that, what do you think you've learned the
most over the years with the type of clientele that
you have coming through? Like, what would people be most
surprised to hear about your clientele having had.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Lots of genders as clients. I think people would be
most surprised to hear about the vulnerability that men feel,
because you know, they're not allowed to show that if
they're going to be masculine and buying sex is sexual
experiences is kind of very masculine in terms of what
people think, but it's actually quite a vulnerable place to
(18:08):
be to express what you want. That's why I'm so
good for women to know what they want and to
ask for it. But for men, I feel like, you know,
a lot of men cry a lot after sex, and
some of them will say that they really just love
their wives. They love their wives so much and they
don't want to be having sex with someone else, but
their wives have like shut up shop for whatever reason,
(18:30):
and they don't understand. Some of them hate their wives
because they're not having sex with them. But you know,
for either case, I can say in that post clotual moment,
when they're so receptive to new ideas, I can tell them.
Women are socialized about sex in such a different way
than men. We're shamed about sex before we're even born,
Like we're not allowed to be too sexy when we're
too and we're dancing to music. You know, we are
(18:53):
shamed out of being sexual in our bodies in a
way that really stays with us. We are rewarded for
withholding sex. We are rewarded for being so called virgins.
We are rewarded. So why would we then enter a
relationship and have sex forever with someone who didn't put
the garbage out like you know, I don't think men
(19:14):
really understand on mass that women have such a different
experience around what sex is for us and how we're
treated because of sex. I don't think men really understand.
And when I can tell them, it's not her fault
she doesn't have sex with you, it's not her fault.
I don't know anything about the situation. But why would
(19:34):
she want to have sex with you when sex has
been told to her as bad all this time in
her life? And maybe you've got young daughters and you're
trying to stop them from having sex with randoms or
be exposed to perhaps dangerous men, Like it's always been
sex for women has always been a danger, So why
(19:54):
would they suddenly change And why after so many years
would they still want to be doing this thing when
they've never really been able to choose sex for themselves,
They've always had sex done to them.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
There's also so many more layers to it than just
this idea of it being a danger.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But like I have friends.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Who don't want to have sex with their husbands because
their husbands are fucking lazy, and there's no like no
doubt that they're not aroused or they're not they don't
come home and feel like, oh, wow, that man who
does absolute jackshittll to help me with the kids.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I really want to dick it in, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like, there's so many layers to how our society sets
up the traditional roles of what women play within a
household and men play within the household, And at the
end of the day, it affects everyone, and it affects
all of our sex lives. Like no one's happy with
the way that patriarchy is set up the household dynamic.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Do you think you have more clients that are married
in relationships or unmarried?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Good question? How it says about fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I mean, I feel like that that's one of the
big things that people seem to get so aarked up
about is that there's like this injustice to sleep with
a married man. But it's also like I have no
prejudice against someone who is on the receiving end of
that because it's like you didn't marry you or not
in that wedding, Like you didn't make those vows. How
do you kind of combat that type of criticism?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Criticism like that comes from the person criticizing, and you know,
the other woman gets like in my private life, I've
entered lots of poly relationships and thruples and all sorts
of good times that I've had, But I've also been
accused of being the other woman many times. And just
as you said, I didn't choose to get married at
that time and be that person. But why does the
(21:30):
other woman like that? Is just an age old trick
to make men never be in trouble and women always
be in trouble. Why should women be shamed for sex
and men not? Like that? Is how I think about
it For myself, I think the idea that sex is
so sacred. I wish people would talk about it more.
I wish couples would have each other's blessings to go elsewhere,
(21:52):
because you don't own someone else's sexuality even if you
marry them, And if you've made an agreement and it's
with words, then that's what you're doing, is betraying someone's trust.
But if you make an agreement that one person doesn't
want to have sex anymore, but they don't own the
other and the other can go elsewhere, then that would
(22:13):
be the ideal situation. I think if.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
That were the case, I'd love to talk about what
relationships have looked like for you over the last twenty
years since you've entered the sex work industry, because I
imagine it would be more difficult to find someone that
you can have a proper relationship with that is also
completely okay with you living this other life. You know,
it's not an everyday thing that we see. What's it
been like for you. Have you had relationships over this
(22:37):
time and how have you managed them?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, I've had heaps of relationships over this time, and
they're very fluid. I prefer relationships with women at this
stage of my life, which I think is actually more
difficult to find a woman okay with my works. I
do have to do a lot of work unless my
partner is a sex worker, which short cuts a lot
of bullshit. But you do have to make sure that
(22:58):
someone's not going to shame you, yeah, for something you've done.
And because society tells everyone that sex is bad and
that sex work is a bad you know, there are
people who are going to be really destructive if you
get into a relationship with them, and it is difficult
to know at first whether someone's going to have the
right attitude. But I think now with all my experience,
(23:21):
I wouldn't even want a friendship with someone who is
disrespectful about my work.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Well, I wouldn't have thought when I asked the question.
To be honest, I didn't have shame as the feeling
in my mind. I had more jealousy, Like more thought
it would be difficult. Yeah, I didn't think that you'd
be having a partner that would be shaming you, because
if you were at the point that you're in a relationship,
I imagine they would have known and been okay with it.
I would have thought the stronger feeling would be jealousy
knowing that your partner was having these experiences with someone else.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That is so interesting because I can't honestly say that
I understand jealousy from a personal perspective, Like I know
it from an intellectual and I've done a lot of
reading about it, but I don't feel it for myself,
which is why it's so easy for me to be Polly.
I now wouldn't date someone who's not Polly to start with, Like,
(24:08):
I don't want to train up another poly because it's
a real lot of work and that's not my work
to do. So yeah, jealousy is something that i've because
I don't experience it. I also don't tolerate it. So
if someone expresses a jealousy, then it's not on.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
It's so fascinating because jealousy also comes from like a
slight sense of ownership, right, Like, you're jealous because you
feel an entitlement to that person and to the decisions
that you've made in your relationship. But I guess if
you come to your relationships with the expectations that things
are more fluid and things are more open, it is
I guess like the conversations that have to surround it
(24:47):
are also more open. But I do find it fascinating
that you say that it's not an emotion you experience,
because I've never heard anyone, even the people that we've
spoken to who have been polly or in different relationship
dynamics that are not monoch mess still a lot of
them say that, you know, jealousy is a thing that
they manage in different ways, but it's not something that's
(25:07):
completely avoid from their relationships.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, I think you're right. I have spoken about this,
like most of my partners say they have felt jealous
in the past about different things. But I realized that
other people do feel this emotion, and that's why intellectualize it.
That's why I've done, you know, my work in finding
out what is this jealousy? Like, I really love The
(25:31):
Ethical Slut Dossie Eastman and Tanna Hardy. It was like
my Bible came out in nineteen ninety seven and they
have actually two or three chapters on dealing with jealousy.
You know, I've got I've got every marriage counseling book
in the world, and there very few of them even
mentioned the word jealousy, let alone have a chapter, but
the Ethical Slut does. So what does that tell us
(25:52):
about how having lots of different experiences is so beneficial
to how we feel about ourselves and how we are
able to understand others.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Hillary, you speak about slut phobia and horphobia, tell us
a little bit about what they are.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, horphobia is just slot phobia di up because whres
are treated badly in order to warn all women not
to be sluts based on like homophobia, Like it's a
fear of someone who's different than you, and the reason
we slut shame is to increase that fear so that
women will be put in their place right so it's
(26:28):
so detrimental to all women, but they're all men, Like
all people who want to have sex with women are
also disadvantaged. You know, a couple of weeks ago, somebody
who murdered two sex workers got a sentence of manslaughter
in a plea bargain, Like, how are we worth less
than other people? Like if we all want to be
(26:49):
part of the solution, we've got to, you know, change
the way we use the words slut and whore and
see it as a really positive thing. See sex as positive,
see women sexless positive, seat sexual experience as positive skills. Well,
you can have pleasure in yourself and give yourself an
antidepressant and give yourself an anti anxiety drug just like that,
(27:11):
or you can give pleasure to someone else and help
them feel those wonderful things. Sex is so good for us,
we should be really celebrating it. And that means we've
got to make those words mean something else. We can't
just make them go away because they'll always be there.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
How do we change the meaning of the words, Like
what is the next step then? And able to support
this in terms of in terms of rewriting the social
stands and expectations on how people are treated and how
we internalize shame around sex, Like, what are the next steps?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about
the next steps. I would really love the social movement
hashtag slut two to take off every single one of us,
just like in the Me Too movement, that shows that
we're not afraid of being called a slut, we are
proud of these words. Then that makes it easier for
every single one of us, for all the others, you know.
(28:03):
So I would love to see a movement like that
take off where just people are so proud. I'm not
the first person to come up with the idea of
reclaiming the word slut or the action of being a slut,
but I think that now is a really the right
time because women's sexual pleasure is in the news, it's everywhere,
and we've really reached this moment where we can't sort
(28:26):
of take that back, we can't pretend that's not real,
and so the logic of celebrating sex the time is right.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
It is a scary space when you say that, though,
as well, because as much as it is one step
in the direction, you're also pushing up against people who
have these very firm ideas, and so it is scary
to be a pioneer in a space. Your experiences, and
some of the more frightening sexual experiences that you've had
are also come from a byproduct of being loud and
(28:56):
visible and being proud of being in the space that
you're in. And so there's always a part of me
that goes like for and I think about like young
girls who are like, you know what, I'm a slot
and I'm proud, and I'm in no way like I
know that it needs the kids need to shift, but
I also get worried about them shifting in a society
where there's so many men who don't respect women, because
(29:18):
I worry about like who has to go first? You
know what I mean by that. It's just it's a
scary space to be the pioneer.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
What you're saying is it could be dangerous to be
a slut, which is absolutely true, and it's not something
that you've created. You're not inflicting the danger just by
saying this is dangerous. Absolutely And this is the reason
we protect young girls too, and we don't want them
to be sexual in public because we're trying to protect them.
We don't want them to be hurt. But the thing is,
we just have to start somewhere. And like, I mean,
(29:48):
we saw that with the Me Too movement that like
I was actually afraid to say me too, like I've
you know, obviously I have experienced this, and I have
every right to say me too. But you know, as
a sex worker, that's more dangerous than for other women.
A lot of there's a book called We two about
sex workers experience as of assault because they didn't feel
(30:09):
comfortable in the Me too movement. But in the main,
the Me Too movement was something that we only drew
courage from each other.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
Yeah, it was the numbers when it was millions, When
it was millions of women in days we're doing it,
We're like, right, I'm with them, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
So I think that's the same with the confronting the
actual reality that it is more dangerous to be a
slat and to be considered worth less than other women.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But it's the only way for annecting change, That's right.
There is almost still a different caliber of like okay,
well there's only fans accounts, and then there's still your
traditional sex work, and there's still a bit of a
caveat between how society used the two. What are your
thoughts on, for example, Only Fans and how there has
been that online shift and conversation happening.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Positive consequence of the pandemic is the number of people
that went on to only fans. And the thing about
OnlyFans is it's face out, Like it's really hard to
be anonymous with an only Fans account, regardless of what
it's for. And you know, everyone's going to think you
are having erotic services if you're on only Fans, because
that's how Only Fans really took off as a platform.
(31:22):
It's not the case anymore that there are other users.
But yeah, the fact that so many people took up
sex work face out on a digital platform during the
pandemic has actually made it a lot easier for other
sex workers to come out. Like, thank you to all
of those sex workers and all the sex workers before
me who came out. It was hard for me to
come out, but it was much easier because I've seen
(31:43):
other sex workers do it and be okay. So yeah,
I think, I think you're right. Has changed the conversation
quite a lot, and I think mainly because a digital platform,
face out means it's much harder to hide.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So do you and how do you vet new clients?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I'm not seeing new clients at the moment, just in
a little tip for all those.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah to jump on.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
My books are closed. Yeah, but how would I screen?
I would take the advice of lots of other sex workers,
and we actually keep our screening methods amongst ourselves. We
keep it private because if people realize exactly how we screen,
then they will find a way around. And we are
constantly updating the way we screen and the tools we use.
(32:36):
The way we share information is constantly changing also because
digital platforms are constantly changing. Yeah, but we do that
to protect each other.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
That's fascinating. I wouldn't have thought of that. I mean,
obviously it makes perfect sense, but I wouldn't have thought
that there is like this, you know, secret conversation that's
going on amongst how to how to keep yourself safe,
because it is an important part of the conversation, but
it's something that you have to take so much agency for.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That's right. There's a wonderful podcast, Someone you Love. I
think it's someone you pot in the actual URL, but
it's called someone you Love by Jenna Love, a very
proud sex worker who happens to be the president of
Scarlet Alliance, the national peer group for sex workers, and
their podcast has and also on social media. They do
(33:22):
a lot of promotion about exactly how sex work works
and you know what's happening today, and you know, if
you're interested in the work or are you're interested in
ideas around how all these things happen, that podcast is
a must listen.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Hillary, What do you love about it? What about the
industry is it that you were like, if you can choose,
I mean, obviously you have the choice of working in
many different industries, So what is it about this industry
that you're like, Actually, this is exactly what I want
to be doing.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I got to say it gets down to basics of
money and orgasms.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Which checks out.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
But I kind of like the status like I'm a
granti and I am a sex worker. Like I kind
of like that I challenge people just by my existence.
I don't even have to say anything.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
What's your age range of clients?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Now that you say you're a granny is the age like,
what's the youngest clients that you have?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
In the oldest clients that you have, I.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Still have clients that started to see me when they
were eighteen and they are now in their mid twenties.
So I have a couple of clients like that, And
basically those clients come because they want to learn about sex,
and some of them have disabilities, so they're not going
to meet people otherwise. But I also have clients well
(34:37):
into their eighties. Some people still have a really good
or rectol function at that age and some don't. But
the penetrative sex is not necessarily a goal. Once people
get older and they realize that there is so much
more to a social experience than putting something in something.
Once they realize that sex is so much more wholesome
(34:59):
than that, then age doesn't matter or ability doesn't matter.
So yeah, I have many clients into their eighties. I'm
not sure if i've had one in their nineties, but
it's been pretty close. Like a few of my clients
have died from age related illnesses. Like they're old. It's
been lovely to look after them until that time. A
couple of them, I've even wanted to go to their funerals,
(35:21):
but I haven't because you know, you do develop close
relationships with people that are really quite lovely.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I can just imagine you standing around the cucumber sandwiches
at the way and people are like, how did you
know jack.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
And they're like, well, I am passed away in my bed.
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Do you think do you think your perception around sex
and like the shame that you may have carried, or
the thoughts that you had earlier on in your like
when you started, how have they shifted throughout your life
and when did you start to see the most significant changes.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I think that I was pretty lucky to escape a
lot of the shaming when I was a kid. Partly
was because we weren't really allowed to watch much television
and I was allowed to read books. So I was
reading Jackie Collins Belly of the Dolls while I well
before I even had thought about being sexual myself, and
(36:16):
I read The Happy Hookah before i'd become sexual myself.
And I really did fantasize about being a sex worker
when I was a young teen. So I don't know
that I carried the same shame that a lot of
people have been inflicted with. But of course I am
a member of society that has that shame on mass,
so I think I was very open about having sexual
(36:39):
experiences before I married, and then when I was married,
I was very married. I was very much in the
gender role of being the wife and the mother, and
that suited me for a while. But when it didn't
suit me, like I was married for fifteen years, had
the four children, as soon as I stopped being married,
I wanted to experiment again. And as soon as I
(37:01):
started experimenting, and it was just too good. I mean,
my body told me. I've just felt like my body
knows more than the rest of the world combined. You know,
when my body tells me this was good, I'm going
to go with that.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
We spoke to Angela White, who's one of the world's
classified as like one of the best in the world
in her industry of porn, and she said the same thing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
She said since she was a.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Teenager, she knew that that's what she wanted to do
before she was having these sexual experiences. She's like, I
knew I had the interest. I was so sexual. I
wanted to go and learn, and she did the second
she turned eighteen. Off she went and so, I feel
like when you said that, I resonated a lot with Angela.
What do you think would be the strangest request you've had.
You said, you do a lot of role play, Like
is there what's the most common role play scene and
(37:44):
the stranger's request.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
I would have to say that that is the most
common question and also the one that I struggle the
most to answer, because I don't know. Some of my
weirdest sex experiences have been outside of sex work. You'd
probably be surprised with how and regular.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Sex work can be, which is fine if that's the answer.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, I really don't know. I mean, I have one
client who's intellectually impaired and he just likes to roll
between the nurse, the teacher, and the dominatrix. But really
it's the same service. Don't tell him, but the same
every time.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
It's funny you say this because that's exactly what Angela said.
But Angela was also like, when you worked in the
industry that I've worked in for so long, She's like,
there is no strange request because everything, She's like, even
the requests that might be strange to you, are now
so ordinary to me that I don't see it with
the same sort of like all scandal perception around it.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
No, but she said, she's like, it's not strange to her,
but there is out of the ordinaries. One of hers
was that this one particular person wants to be really little,
Like he wants to be two centimeters tall, and she
has to pick him up and put him in the
pocket and things like that, Like there are some very
specific role playing that people like I always find that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, I really I'm interested in.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Like, what do you think of the biggest misconceptions that
people have around their views of sex work? And one
of the ones that comes to mind, and I think,
especially when you talk about how you had four kids
and your nursing, my thought is that when you don't
tell people or when you've got young kids, especially, that
the instant thought is like, oh, you can't be a
(39:21):
good mum and also be a sex worker. Like these
are the types of like unfounded thoughts that people have,
which comes with the stigma that surrounds sex work. What
do you think of the biggest misconceptions of people who
work within the industry and of the friends and the
community that you've built around yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, the misconceptions are that you're a different type of person.
But let me tell you a story that illustrates your
question and points so much. One day, I was waiting
for a client and I was completely naked because then
I didn't have to wash any clothes so much more
hate I am. Yeah, so I'm completely naked. I'm wait
(40:00):
for this client and my my private phone rings and
I'm like, oh, she hit no my private phone. I'm
gonna have to change my name. I'm gonna have to
change my persona. So I answer my private phone really
quickly and say hello Hillary speaking like remember who you are, girl,
And it's the school counselor and I'm like, oh, it's
my daughter. Okay, you know what's going on? And she says,
oh no, your daughter's fine. She just came in to
(40:20):
talk to me. But it was you that I was
calling about, you know. I just really wanted to see
how you are. And I'm like, oh, okay, why and
she said, oh, well, your daughter said that you started
pole dancing and I was like, oh yeah, it's the
best sport I'm getting abs. It's really fun. And she's
like oh that's okay then and hangs up, and I'm like,
(40:41):
hang on a minute, I'm stackers. When did to fuck someone?
And you're worried about but you're not worried anymore. And
I was just like, why do.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You think she called? Why do you think she was?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
She thought I was stripping. She thought it because you know,
I'm a single mom, so obviously I'm stripping. But you know,
she's got a check in to make sure that the
kids aren't being exposed to what I'm doing. Like, you know,
she just made that assumption, even though she was actually
not as right as she could have been, Like, but
(41:16):
I'll be entitled to private lives, Like you know, I
just thought it's so ridiculous. Yeah, really, And that gave
me a lot of a lot of stuff to laugh
about for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
That one you just reminded me of not that long ago.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Last year, we were having this conversation and it sort
of was sweeping her doing the rounds online, the idea
that this like I think it was a teacher specifically,
but a teacher got stood down because she was she
had an only fans, That's right, she had only fans,
and she kept her private life separate. But obviously, kids
being kids, they do googles and they found it. It
started this whole discussion about the fact that teachers are
(41:51):
nurses and people that are in this caregiving roles or
public facing roles, government roles shouldn't have access to this
separate life. Obviously, I know your opinion on it because
you do both simultaneously. But do you remember that conversation
and what are your thoughts about teachers having like trying
to attempt to have a separate online OnlyFans account then
(42:13):
one day and then the next day they can go
and teach, you know, twelve and under.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
It doesn't change who you are at all. This conversation
happens every day. There are people discriminating against for their
sexuality every single day. I can't actually be a police officer.
I can't be a lawyer. You know, I might have
difficulty getting a security check, you know, government department if
I wanted to be a public servant. There are so
(42:37):
many jobs and so many ways of discriminating against sex
workers and people who are sexual that aren't written into law.
That's called stigma and discrimination. And it is so rife
that this is the whole point of my winning to
fight against that. I don't think people realize how much
sex workers are discriminated against in everyday lives.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, well, it's not even legally in every state is
it No.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
No, it's in South Australia. It's still completely illegal. You know,
there were many challenges to criminalize it. Further crazy that
we fight all the time. Western Australia is partly criminalized,
Tasmania is partly criminalized. Act Here where I am, it's legalized,
which is actually bad too, because if you legalize something,
(43:24):
you define it, and if you define it, there's going
to be people outside of your definition, it's a very
broad brush, so it's impossible to define. So we sex
workers demand a decriminalization model because we don't want laws
that are specific to us. We don't need laws that
are specific. We want to be treated like workers, like
(43:47):
every other. We want to be included in health and
safety regulations, we want to be included in all the
other ways that businesses are controlled and regulated, and we
don't think we need anything specific. There are no situations
that are specific to sex work that should be legislated against.
So yeah, it's but that's saying that we also are
(44:11):
fighting for antidiscrimination laws or regulations so that we can
be protected through discrimination as well as through not having
bad laws. Most of Australia, like New South Wales, has
been decriminalized for nearly thirty years and the size of
the industry has not increased. The numbers of people who
(44:31):
are exploited in the industry have not increased. In fact,
sex workers are safer under decriminalized models, and that's been
shown in New South Wales with lots and lots of data.
So now that Victoria, New South Wales, Northern Territory and
Queensland are decriminalized in different ways, there are still laws
that are difficult because sex working laws infiltrate, like advertising
(44:55):
laws and like so many different aspects of how we
live are regulated by laws, and the way we have
sex is regulated by laws in lots of ways that
people don't really understand. So decriminalization is not simply saying oh,
let's just remove a law, it'll be done. It's a
(45:15):
very complicated process and so it's different in every area.
So it's still difficult to work legally. Like when I
was working in Northern Territory before decrim came in, there
was this law that said you couldn't receive a phone
call for a booking for a sex working booking at
the same place where you do the booking. It's something
like they didn't want to establish agencies brothels. They they
(45:40):
didn't want brothels where people would just rock up and
make an appointment. So they said, okay, So there was
this law. It was like one hundred years old or something.
But it meant that if I wanted to work in there,
I would just run outside and answer my phone and
then I'd run back inside ready to get ready for
the booking. And then I was like, this is ridiculous.
So I was taking the phone call illegally. How ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
It's ridiculous, especially there's so many run out in the
front to answer the call and run back in.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, And I understand that there is probably a lot
more legislation around how it can be advertised, how you
can solicit for customers, which even like working in radio,
there's lots of laws around talking about anything that's too
sexual because it then can you know, it's different timeslots
all that sort of stuff. I would understand that there
must be legislation around advertising for you as well.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, like in Queensland prior to d crem
coming in. And the other thing about criminalization is that
the police are the people who maintain the law or
enact the laws, so then sex workers are policed, which
is not good. So in Queensland they've got different laws,
and every state has different laws about what you can
(46:50):
say in your advertising. But now that we have websites
that are global, I might say that I'm sexy on
my website, but if I go to Queensland to work,
then that would actually put me in breach before d
Crimp would have put me in breach of the law.
And I do know a sex worker who has been
charged with incorrect advertising and had her phone, laptop, money
(47:15):
stolen by police because crime, like you know, that's just
being targeted, that's that's just being discriminated against because you're
a sex worker. But they had the law on their side.
So yeah, bad laws through advertising will also affect sex
workers exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And also I can imagine that it must be such
a challenging industry when like a lot of people who
were in it, who maybe already disadvantage to then have
their accessibility, their phones, their money and everything else taken away.
Like what a horrific cycle it creates.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Yeah, at a level of difficulty if you're a migrant
and you've come here out of there.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, Heley thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
It's truly a pleasure to speak to you. It's so
insightful and the my favorite part of doing this podcast
is being able to give people like you a platform
and educate us, educate us on a world that we
don't know about, a world that is still taboo, and
a world that we think we would love to help
normalize as well. So thank you for coming on today.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Thank you so much, thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
We are going to link doctor Hilary Coldwell's book Seluttum
Reclaiming Shame, Free Sexuality and all her socials in our
show notes, So if you want to go find more,
if you want to read the book, if you want
to get amongst it, everything will be there.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Thank you,
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