American Nightmare. The Truth About the Wrongfully Labelled "Real Life Gone Girl". Uncut with Denise Huskins

We are so grateful to have been able to speak with Denise Huskins.
Far too often victims of assault are not believed. The story of what happened with Denise's kidnapping and assault is harrowing. However, in this chat Denise articulates that what happened next from law enforcement, the media and the public was worse. 

In March 2015, in Vallejo, CA, Denise Huskins and her boyfriend Aaron Quinn awoke from a sound sleep when armed men bound and drugged them, and then abducted Denise.

Aaron was warned not to call the police, or else Denise would be killed. Aaron trusted law enforcement and called the police to try and find Denise. But instead of searching for Denise, the police accused Aaron of her murder. They said that his story was just unbelievable. When Denise was released alive, the police turned their fire on her, dubbing her the "real-life 'Gone Girl'" who had faked her own kidnapping.

In this chat Denise answers so many of our questions like:

• Why were you and Aaron targeted?
• If law enforcement thought your statements were too inconsistent and unreliable to believe you, then why were you later seen as a reliable witness in court? 
• Why have the other kidnappers not been pursued and prosecuted? 
• Did the police ever take accountability for their mistakes?

We speak about Denise and Aaron having to decide whether to speak out publicly to clear their names of creating a hoax kidnapping OR be used as witnesses in court to help prosecute Matthew Muller. 

We also discuss how Denise and Aaron were able to help each other heal and went on to get married and have two beautiful daughters. Denise is remarkably resilient.

You can watch "American Nightmare' on Netflix or read Denise and Aaron's book here.

Please note that this episode discusses violent and sexual assault. If you are listening from Australia, you can find free help by calling 1800-RESPECT. 

 

If you enjoyed this episode, you might like some others that we recorded with two of the wonderful women from The Tinder Swindler
You might also like the episode that we recorded with Kayla Laws from the Netflix Docu series Is Anybody Up?

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose
lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their
elders past and present, always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
This episode was recorded on Drug Wallamata Land. Hi guys,

(00:23):
and welcome back to another episode of Life on Cut.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Brittany and I'm pretty Zakisha feeling in for our
girl Laura today because unfortunately she's feeling really unwell.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
But my word, wow today's episode.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Excited might be the wrong word, but I am really
excited to bring it to you. And one it's for
selfish reason. I watched American Nightmare along with the other
fifty million people that have streamed American Nightmare on Netflix,
and I just knew that I wanted to help Denise
tell her story. But this is truly one of the
most harrowing and unbelievable and gobsmacking story I have seen

(01:01):
in a really, really long time.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Like I just said, there's one part that was completely selfish.
I wanted answers.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
To the questions that I was left with, and I
know so many people were left with those questions.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
So, if you haven't seen the docuseries, or read their book,
A Victim f from Crime at Victims to suspects to Survivors.
Will give you a little bit of a recap so
that you can kind of get your head around what
we're about to talk about. In March of twenty fifteen,
in Valleo, Denise and her at the time boyfriend Aaron,
they were both asleep when they were woken up by
some armed men who bound and drugged them. These men

(01:33):
then abducted Denise and told Aaron that he was not.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
To call the police or they would kill her.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, they threatened that they would hum at the very
least Denise.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
And can you imagine that feeling of being a partner
who I mean both of them, right, and we speak
about this, but one of you has just seen your
loved one be kidnapped and all you want to do
is help them, but you can't because it could kill them.
And the same thing goes for Denise who's been kidnapp
is if she does anything and tries to save herself,
then something will happen to him. I can't fathom that feeling.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, I can't imagine having to make that decision. And
I mean Aaron at the time trusted law enforcement, and
he trusted that they would do the right thing and
go searching for Denise.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
But that is not what happened.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Aaron initially was accused of murdering Denise. They also said
that his story was just too unbelievable to believe.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
So they did not even look for Denise and look
for the people that kidnapped her, which is the part
for me that left me with so much anger.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Forty eight hours later, Denise turns up and she is
dubbed the real life Gone Girl. So to give you
an idea of timing, the movie Gong Girl had come
out the year before, and she was accused alongside Aaron
with creating this hoax kidnapping. The reasons for that were
not particularly clear in the media, but essentially they were
making up that Denise and Aaron had concocted this plan

(02:56):
for attention of some type.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
And then we see the same thing happen again the
police with what happened to Aaron. To Denise, Aaron has
come forward said please help, my partner's been kidnapped.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
They've said bullshit.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Then she turns up and she corroborates his story and
she's like, I have been kidnapped and they say lo
and behold bullshit like the victim blaming straight out of
the gate on. This is like nothing I have ever
seen before.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
But it did leave us with quite a few questions
because what we saw in the docuseriies was that initially
they weren't.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Believed, and for so long they weren't believed, but then.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Later on they were used as witnesses in court to
prosecute the men who had kidnapped Denise, and it was
just like, how does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (03:36):
You know?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Did people come forward and do they apologize for the
fact that they got so many things so wrong? Which
is a question that we did ask Denise.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, and then some of the other big questions, why
was Denise and Aaron the ones that were targeted? Denise specifically,
why was she the one that was kidnapped? Why have
the other kidnapper has not ever been pursued or prosecuted
because only one person was ever convicted? Did the police
ever take any accountability for their mistakes? We cover a
lot of questions that I know you guys would have

(04:03):
had when you finish the docuseries yourself, And a beautiful
part of it, I think is what happens afterwards and
how Aaron and Denise in fact got through such a
tumultuous and traumatic time to become stronger than ever, because
I know that is a question that a lot of
people would have at the end of the day. The
Netflix docuseries was incredible. It was incredibly done. It was

(04:23):
by the producers of the Tinder Swindler. I love the
fact that they focus on the victims. But Netflix always
have a limit and rules and boundaries on exactly what
you can and can't talk about and say. And this
did happen in some capacity with the docuseries, with Denise
and Aaron what they felt like they were allowed to include.
Denise goes on to tell us that some of the
things she wanted to talk about were omitted, and she

(04:45):
agreed to that at the time. But the wonderful thing
about podcasting is it is a free space for you
to talk about anything you want to And we feel
really honored that Denise trusted us with this. We hope
you get as much out of this chat as we did. Denise,
Welcome to Life on cod I'm so excited to have
you today.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Today's We start every episode of this podcast by asking
you what your most embarrassing story is. We call it
an accidentally unfiltered Do you have an embarrassing story?

Speaker 1 (05:13):
It also feels strange to know that with the premise
of this episode, but also everyone has an embarrassing story.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right, Well, my initial reaction was is being publicly called
gone girl?

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Not right?

Speaker 4 (05:29):
My email I was like, she has a really good
sense of you. M well, yeah, and humor is a
really important thing when you're overcoming trauma and tragedy, and
it's something I think initially you don't expect, but I mean,
when you're going through the worst moments of your life,
it all gets so heavy that you need levity, You

(05:52):
need like a moment of reprieve, and just even making
a stupid, silly joke can be a nun just to
like lighten the mood.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
So how does it feel now, Because I'm sure it's
one thing to have had the world know your story
when it happened and for it to be rich and
about but I'm sure it's now the feeling for it
to be really out there again, you personally telling your
story on such a humongous platform. How are you feeling
now that the world has seen that.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
Oh there's a lot of mixed emotions, and it hit
the both of us harder than I think we realized.
You know, in preparation, the team at Netflix is like,
you know, how are you doing? It can be quite
overwhelming when it hits one hundred and ninety countries in
a day and millions and millions of views, and you
know you're going into it trying to prepare mentally, but

(06:44):
there's no way to prepare. And it's tough because there
was such a positive reception from so many people all
over the world. You know, it can't even count how
many messages we've gotten, and so it should be really positive.
But I think there's also you know, the public exposure

(07:05):
right after the kidnapping was so intertwined with those two
days of captivity. Am I going to get out of
this alive? So internally my body just processes it as
a life or death situation, and so you know, the
past month and a half since it's been out, there's
just a lot of that deep pain and processing and

(07:28):
feeling of sickness and anxiety. It's been a challenge to
process through it. But at the same time, it's the
reception of it that it got number one that, I mean,
the messages, the overall meetings that we were hoping that
people would walk away with are definitely hitting very hard.
And so it's reassuring and really leaves me hopeful because

(07:50):
it's clear that the audience is really receptive of, you know,
how victims are treated, victim blaming. A lot of people
can connect to a big part of what we went through,
and so so yeah, it's a mixed bag.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Oh that was one thing I did want to ask you,
is what what your k hopes to get out of
filming this documentary.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
Well, you know, everyone focused initially and still kind of does,
about the sensational aspects of the kidnapping, and you know,
the elaborate pieces of it, you know, all the reasons
why they said they didn't believe it, you know who
the kidnappers writing emails and defense of us, and all
the links that they went through during the home invasion.

(08:31):
And for us, though, the aftermath of the kidnapping being
received the way that we were by law enforcement, by
the media, by the public, the rush to judgment, the
victim blaming, the shame, all of that was even more
devastating than the actual crime itself. You know, because you

(08:53):
can kind of understand that there's people out there who
are motivated to terrorize and cause harm, but there's still
that hope that there are people to turn to that
are there to help. And we turned to those people
and they just made everything worse and they attacked us,
and that was really difficult to comprehend. And then by

(09:17):
saying the hoax claims destroyed our reputations, anything a value
in our life that we'd wanted to return to after
overcoming a life or death situation was taken from us.
So the things that gave us meaning, you know, we
were lost. And even as time has gone since then,

(09:39):
hearing from other survivors and them saying that they were
treated that way when they went to police and the
false accusations and confirmation bias, the realization of how common
that is is really devastating and reason why we feel
like it's really important to keep sharing.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Today's When the docu series first came out on Netflix,
we actually spoke about it in the podcast, and the
conversation we had was how I think in the last
couple of years, we've predominantly seen this switch in policing
of police, and I think that that's because there are
now media companies that are willing to hold them accountable,

(10:20):
and that's something that we didn't have access to before
we had social media and before there were companies like
Netflix investigating this type of thing. You guys released a
book in twenty twenty one, more people.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Know the reality of the story.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Does it kind of counter this narrative that the media portrayed,
or do you still feel as though you have to
kind of prove yourself and prove that you were telling
the truth the entire time.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
It's gotten better. There's more people who believe us, believe
in us, are interested in the truth. And you know
the reason why law enforcement can go out and publicly
make a statement. People believe in the police, and they
do it quickly to implant that narrative, and then it's

(11:03):
really hard for people to forget about that and let
that go. And so there's still I mean, there's definitely
still people within the Valeo Police Department who were involved
in the investigation of our kidnapping who don't believe us
still and still think that we're somehow involved, which is
insane considering the evidence that they have. There's, yeah, there's

(11:26):
still people in the public who don't believe in it,
don't want to believe in it. And there is also
a lot of pressure in speaking publicly. Again, you know, initially,
anything I did or said was under a microscope picked apart.
If I was too emotional, then I'm faking it. If

(11:48):
I'm you know, not emotional, then it didn't really happen.
I mean, there was a no win situation. And so
speaking to law enforcement, giving them every detail, there's too
many details, there's not enough details, you know, So that
I think is still very much something that I battle with,
and the pressure performing the way that people expect. And

(12:12):
then even you know, writing a book and doing a docuseries,
there's also you know, a big publishing company or co author,
there's the network, the producers, the whole teams involved putting
money into it to make this happen. And so there's
still that pressure of like not wanting to let them down,

(12:33):
or if I don't again, if I don't sit there
and perform in the way that they think will be
entertaining for the audience or emotional enough or whatever, then
I'm letting everyone else down. And there's yeah, certainly a
lot of that.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
You did say something a little bit earlier that I
just wanted to go back to because I feel like
it's extremely importantly brushed over a bit. But you said
that the aftermath and people's responses, including the police the
general public as well, was far worse than a kidnapping
and two days of sexual assault and thinking that you're

(13:09):
going to die. And I want people to think about
that for a second, because you're saying people harassing you
online and on the news and not believing you it
was worth which I completely believe you, but I think
that is crazy that people don't realize the harm in
their words online. I do wanted to go back a
little bit, if we can, just to your relationship with Aaron.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
How you guys met.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
How long we together before this happened.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah, we met. I was in Vallejo for a physical
therapy residency at the hospital Kaser There's an amazing program
to specialize and working with patients with neurological disorders, and
he worked there, and you know, we interacted socially and professionally,
like in group settings, and we just always kept gravitating

(13:59):
towards one another. There was just something, an instant connection
he had just been going through was still going through
this breakup with his ex fiance who also worked with us.
So it was initially one of those do I even
go there? Do I? You know, it wasn't the ideal situation,

(14:20):
but in the end our connection, you know, we couldn't
deny it. So we were dating for about seven months
before the kidnapping and yeah, I mean it was again,
it was a really complicated situation, but we instantly fell
in love and there'd be moments where we're like, Okay,

(14:41):
maybe we need to take a break so he could
process through this a little bit, and we would like
take a break for a day or two, and then
you know, reconnect.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Love is love. When it's there, you can't deny it.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Laura, who usually hosts this podcast, is the biggest believer
that you can heal within relationships. You know, it's not
this binary reprocess where you have to.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Be before you totally.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
For those people that haven't seen the documentary yet, I
know that they have one hundred percent will, But can
you take us back to the night that it happened
and what you remember when did you realize that there
was somebody in the house? Was it did you hear
something from downstairs or another room or was it until
you were you were literally someone standing of your bed.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
What did that look like?

Speaker 4 (15:21):
Well, no, I mean Erin and I. We had an
emotional evening before we went to bed. We were at
a crossroads in our relationship and trying to figure out,
you know, do we move forward? Can we make this work?
And ultimately we decided yes we can, and so we
were emotionally exhausted. Went to bed around midnight, and it
was about three am when I was woken from a

(15:46):
deep sleep to where I was convinced that I was
still dreaming, that it was a nightmare, but I kept
hearing a voice relentlessly saying, wake up, this is a robbery.
Were not here to hurt you. And I think as
soon as I realized that it was reality and not

(16:08):
and not actually a dream, you know, my eyeshot open,
my body froze. I could see a flashing white light
against the wall and red laser thoughts crossing the wall
and over our bodies, and the voice just kept speaking
and I realized we're surrounded. They have guns, like people

(16:29):
are here. This is real, and you know, there wasn't
really a chance to react. I mean, it was really
like paralyzed in sleep and then instantly realizing what was happening,
and the voice just kept speaking and gave instructions and
told me to tie up Aaron, and he dropped zip

(16:49):
ties at the edge of the bed, and he talked
me through tying up Aaron's hands behind his back and
his speed together. And I didn't think about screaming because
I felt like if I did that they had guns,
they would shoot us instantly. It was designed to make
us defenseless. And then it just got worse and worse
from there.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
These people in the voices, were they in the room
or was a voice coming from outside and giving you instructions?

Speaker 4 (17:15):
There was in the room. He had a large master bedroom,
but it was still pretty vacant, you know. I had
a big bed and two like bedside tables and one
armchair in the corner, but it was a pretty big
open space, so two of them were on the corner
of the bed, closest to Aaron.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
I remember when I was watching your story on Netflix,
and the one question that I had the entire way
was there are multiple people involved.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Here, so where the hell are they?

Speaker 4 (17:49):
Where the fuck are they? Well, yeah, you know, Britt and.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I spoke about whether, like you said, it was very elaborate,
it was very planned. Was there a way to fake
the amount of people in the room or have voice
recordings or something like that. And I keep coming back
to this idea that I was like, no, they weren't
drugged at this point. You know, you would be highly
aware if there was more than one person in the room.

(18:13):
And yet still to this day, there have not been
multiple people pursued.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
They haven't even been looked for. And that's something that's
like part of the gas lighting. Even after Muller's caught
and beyond of well, you know, they found a blow
up doll in his car and thought, okay, that's what
they saw. And there was pre recorded messages that were

(18:39):
played for us. Blacked out swim goggles were put over
our eyes and then headphones, and it was connected to
something with these prerecorded messages with like a dubbed over
voice giving instruction again kind of in like a robotic way,
saying like be calm, we aren't here to hurt you,
We're here for financial gain, and then saying that I'm

(19:00):
would come and take our blood pressure, that we would
be given sedatives. So later the FBI found those recordings
and claim that that was part of what he did
to fool us to believe that there was other people.
But just because we listened to the recordings doesn't mean
that that's why we thought that there was more people.

(19:22):
I saw two people standing at the edge of the bed.
My head was down, But the two people standing wasn't
a blow up doll. They were moving. We heard when
we were upstairs in the bedroom closet, we could hear
people downstairs at opposite ends of the house. It was
like a twenty four hundred square foot house, so it

(19:43):
was a large home, and so they were on opposite
ends of the downstairs. One was going through the drawers,
another one was using a drill that we were assuming
that they were putting later putting up the camera to
monitor Aaron. The one person who spoke, which we know
is now Matthew Mueller. He was upstairs in the bathroom
next to us, and there's like someone walked past as

(20:07):
he was guiding me to the next room. Like you
can't deny movement of somebody else. There's no way to
replicate that. There was also tasers that would be snapped
from the opposite side of the room. As a threat,
which we took that okay. And then even in one
of the recordings they said, if you don't comply, we
will cut your partner's face or give electric shock. So yeah,

(20:31):
I mean I could go on and on about other
things that When I was in captivity, he said the
others were coming to the house. A different truck pulled
up to the house. I was taken in what we
now know is a musting, but I assumed it was
a musting with how it sounded, so it was a
very different car.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
You know.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
I could hear the doors open and close. I heard
whispering in the next room. So the blow up doll
and the recordings don't they don't answer all of those things.
And the frustrating thing is is they went from one
conclusion to another that was wrong. You know, Aaron murdered me,

(21:12):
then I show up alive and it's a hoax, and
then they catch this one guy and it's he did
it by himself, And it was all very like it
was really early on when I spoke to one of
the FBI agents and he said, I'm ninety eight percent
sure he did it by himself. And they hadn't even
gone through all of his electronic devices. So it's like, dude,
can you And I even said this to him, I'm like,

(21:33):
I really please approach this objectively and with an open mind,
because we know that there was more people involved, and
it just everything we've seen since then doesn't seem like
they've actually taken that seriously.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
When they'l like he's like, oh, I'm ninety eight percent
sure he's alone, You're like, great, right, I'm one hundred
percent show he wasn't so seen as though I was
the one there.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
Well, that was the other thing, because the one agent
with the conflict of interest, David SAYSMA. He questioned me
the second day when I went in for questioning by
law enforcement and I was with my attorney, and at
the end of it he had told me, you know,
are you sure that there are anything that you don't
want to change. It's a felony who lies to a

(22:18):
federal agent. And then he told my lawyer off in
the next room, you know, I'm ninety nine percent sure
she's lying. Have you seen the movie Gone Girl? And
so when later they're telling me I'm ninety eight percent
sure he did it by himself, I'm like, okay, cool, bro, Like,
last time you were ninety nine percent sure and you

(22:40):
were one hundred percent wrong, So can we forget about
this percentage? I held my tongue but trying not to
cuss to an agent. But it's like, please, enough of
this percentage stuff, like keep an open mind.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
It's such patronizing language. I mean, we all have this
inbuilt evolutionary sense. It's an instant, sinctual sense that when
we were in a position where we could literally die,
your senses are heightened. Your sympathetic nervous system goes into overdrive.
It's like that thing when you're somewhere alone at night
in the dark and you can feel.

Speaker 4 (23:12):
When there is someone around you.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yes, when you were initially taken, Denise, you were taken
into a car and you were driven away. What do
you remember from that time?

Speaker 4 (23:26):
Well, when he put me in the trunk of the
car and the door closed, the air was thinner, and
instantly I was afraid that I would suffocate, and I
was thinking, I mean, these people fucking stupid. I'm going
to die in here, you know. But then you know,
I knew I was starting to panic. I kept thinking,
you know, something goes wrong, they could just stop at

(23:49):
the side of the road and burn the car and
thinking of like what that would be like to be
burned alive, and you know, your mind just raises with
all the possibilities of the horror that you could face.
And so I mean, I just like I'm a physical
therapist and I've talked and trained people with breathing techniques,

(24:10):
and so I'm just sitting there trying to just focus
on my breath, try to not let myself go to
those places, you know, because of course, like instantly just
even waking up to a voice speaking like you were saying,
you know, everything in your body says like react to something.
But then the logical side of you is going, well, no,

(24:33):
if you do that, you could be hurt, You could
be killed. And it's not just me, but my actions
could hurt or kill the person that I love. I
felt too like the whole forty eight hours, if I
let myself go too far, like I was just on
the edge of losing my mind, like not being able
to hold it together. And I needed I knew that

(24:57):
I might not be able to physically fight or scream
right now, but I need to pay attention, control my
reaction and get as much information as possible, because there
might be something here that gets me out of this alive.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
It's right what you said that it's not just you,
and it's so easy now to think of you in
that car on the way to your captivity. But then
when we think back to where Aaronie is, he's doing
the same thing. He thinks that he can't move and
all he wants to was help you back at home.
But he can't move because if he does, you could die.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Well, initially we were given sedatives that I think for
some reason, it seems for like a lot of people,
especially in the media and reporting, don't get how powerful
sedatives can be and what they what it actually does.
I mean, he was completely knocked out. He was passed

(25:51):
out unconscious for hours. And I was too when I
was in the trunk of the car, like I was
trying to like stay calm and pay attention, like which
way am I turning? Or what does this sound like?
But eventually, you know, I couldn't fight the way to
the sedatives, and that was the same for him, And
so eventually when it started wearing off, I think maybe

(26:14):
it was around like eleven am or noon, and that's
when he realized like, okay, I'm going to have to
start doing something. They're going to ask me to do things.
They were telling him that they were going to communicate
through his phone and messages and text messages, and they
had a camera pointing at him, and so he thought
that they were monitoring him, and so you know, I mean,

(26:34):
he was really just trying to like be present because
he knew he needed to save me. But then he
started realizing the camera wasn't working. It was making this noise,
and so he thought like, okay, maybe they and he
was responding to some of the messages and he wasn't
getting an immediate response back, and he thought, well, if
they see me, can't they see that I'm responding. So

(26:56):
that's when he started kind of going, Okay, maybe they
don't have full view of me. Maybe there's a chance
that I could reach out. And he thought because he
was told they had tracking, they were monitoring his phone,
so he thought, okay, I can't call nine one one,
but if I call my brother who's an FBI agent,

(27:16):
then I could just tell them, you know, some story
that you know, we were supposed to meet. So I
was trying to cancel or whatever, but He eventually got
in contact with his brother, and his brother said, you
need to call nine one immediately, and that's when you
realized like, okay, I do. But that decision for him

(27:38):
was the hardest, like to make that. I don't know, don't.
I don't think I'd want to trade places, Like, Yes,
I was in captivity and I was raped, and I
thought I was going to die. But like to be
in a position where a decision you're making could lead
to someone else being killed the woman you love is Yeah,

(28:01):
he knew he would be safe if he called the police,
but he thought he could be killing me. But he
believed in law enforcement and believed that they would help,
and so he he Yeah, he called, and sadly it
made everything worse.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Denise, I can imagine a question that the two of
you have wandered for a long time. He's why us,
why may why did this have to happen to us?
Have you ever got clarity on why you were targeted?

Speaker 4 (28:36):
Uh? No, I'm not sure if I'll ever know. There
was the reasoning that was given by the kidnappers. You know, Moeler,
who was the one speaking to us, who held me captive,
who rate me, He explained to Aaron separately and me separately.
And then also it was in the pre recorded messages

(28:56):
that this was a mission intended to target his ex.
And he said her first and last name, and her
name was in the pre recorded messages that were played
for Aaron saying like I'm going to take I'm going
to take Andrea, and you're gonna you know it, gave
the instruction and he told me when I was in captivity,

(29:20):
this was meant for this was meant for her. I
got the wrong intel. He saw a mail with her
name on it and an engagement card of theirs. But
this was months ago, and I, you know, it was
my fault. And even after I was released, and then
the police went on n astional news to say that it

(29:41):
was a hoax. The next day, police and media were
getting emails from the kidnappers saying it's not a hoax.
We did it, trying to get credit for what they
had done and said again in the emails, this was
a mistake. She wasn't intended for Denise. It was intended
for Andrea, and continued with that, and so that's another

(30:05):
thing of like that's been frustrating. I don't know if
that aspect has been fully evaluated. And what made it
worse is we found out later that the lead agent
in charge of investigating the kidnapping, the one who told
my attorney that he thought I was gone girl, had

(30:26):
had a prior relationship with Aaron's X and it overlapped
when Aaron and her started dating. So he definitely knew
who Aaron was and he didn't question erin he questioned me,
And so it feels like the significance of her being
the main target was diminished to potentially diminish the significance

(30:49):
of his conflict of interests.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
What do you and Aaron Mike of that situation, Because
of course that could be just one of the most
wild coincidences. But to a viewer, I know how I felt.
I felt like, there's no way all these dots could
have aligned like it just felt like there was a
connection that was being missed.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
What do you guys think, I.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
Mean, there's so much of everything we've gone through that
is so hard to believe that you know. It very
much could be that law enforcement, with their egos, had
their confirmation biased and the lead agent just thought, Okay,

(31:31):
this is going to be a big case and I'm
going to be on it despite me knowing you know,
Andrea and Aaron, and I'm just gonna stay on it
because this could help boost my career, and so, I mean,
it really could just be a series of coincidences.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
I'd love to know a little bit about.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
And I don't quite know how to ask this question
because it's so contradictory, but those few days that you
were in captivity, it almost looked like, in a way
he was being polite. And I don't know how to
say it, because you can't be polite and you've just
kidnapped and are about to rape somebody. But what I
mean by that for the people that haven't seen it,
and I hope you can expand on this, Denise, is

(32:08):
it just seems like he was like, I'm really sorry
that I'm about to rape you, you know, like, and
I'm sorry that this has to happen. And that doesn't
make sense to me because I'm like, well, if you're sorry,
you're not going to do it.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
What was his demeanor like to you over those few days.

Speaker 4 (32:22):
Yeah, from the beginning, he was the pseudo remorse the politeness,
I mean, instantly from the instructions of having me tie
up Aaron. As I'm trying to tighten the zip ties,
you know, my hands are shaking. I'm overwhelmed. I'm afraid
that I'm not going to be doing it properly or
fast enough. And it's almost as if he was reading

(32:44):
my mind, because he would say, you're doing a good job.
You are staying calm. Yeah, he so threw out from
the beginning, even when he said that this wasn't intended
for you and I'm sorry. We got to the location
he helped me captive in and as he walked me inside,
he says, you know, I don't want to dehumanize you

(33:06):
anymore than I have to, so I will let you
use the restroom by yourself, knock on the door when
you're done. Pretty quickly, I've realized it was just a
form of manipulation and he was trying to condition me.
If he could show me that he's not going to
be aggressively violent, then maybe I won't be either. And

(33:30):
it became almost like this game of e create it
to like this just horrible game of chess where I
don't know the rules. He's in charge of the rules.
They constantly change, and if I lose, I'm dead, but
I still have to play. I still have to figure
this out. And it's like he's doing all of this

(33:50):
clearly he's you don't choose to do a kidnapping and
follow through with rapes if you don't have some pleasure
out of it and some motivation to cause harm and
to terrorize someone. So I think some of it wasn't
just to manipulate me, but also to manipulate himself, to
convince himself I'm not all that bad, so I have

(34:14):
to do this, and he continuously drugged me. It's protocol,
I have to do this. But yeah, it's all bullshit
because if you if you really do feel bad, just stop,
just be done with it, release me. So yeah, and
even with the emails that were sent later on, it
was like, you know, we can't see like, yes, we

(34:35):
caused them harm, but we can't see two and is
in victims being shown this way publicly like we did it.
Here's evidence to show that we did it. So you know,
I think everyone tries to be the hero of their
own story. And so it's like he created this huge
mess and terrorize people. But then he's like, oh, I'm
gonna I'm gonna be the hero and make it better.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Even the ripe was a form of manipul in itself
and control, I guess by saying that he had filmed it,
and that would go out to whom I about to
say if you did anything wrong. It's like micro manipulation
within a large world of manipulation.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Right. And after the first rape, when I hadn't fought back,
he took me to the bathroom and he said, well,
now you can take off the goggles when you're in
a room alone. Here's some toilet trees, take a shower,
you know. And I pulled up the blindfold and I

(35:33):
saw the just like this array of like you know,
shampoo and conditioner and a toothbrush and just all this stuff.
And I'm like, he's rewarding me for my good behavior.
And it was a good girl. But then at the
same time, there's always that threat, like if you don't like,
you don't want to know what's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Did that type of mentality continue throughout the entire time
that you interacted with him, and I mean more so
in the court case when he was being prosecuted. Did
that narrative shift or do you think he still was
trying to convince himself that this was something he had
to do.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
No well, when he was caught and in custody and
the detective Alameda Sheriff's Department for the Dublin case where
he attacked another family and he left his personal cell
phone and they were able to find him. And there's
one detective who when they arrested him, was like, there's

(36:36):
something wrong here. There's more to this. I think there's
another victim. She found goggles with the blonde hair. Her
victims didn't have blonde hair, and so she's like, I
need to find out who this other victim is. Once
they were able to link and connect the cases, there
was overwhelming amounts of evidence that showed that he kidnapped

(36:59):
me captive. Later they found the recordings of the rapes,
so there was absolutely no way he could get out
of it. He was absolutely guilty for doing it. So
his only defense to say he was not guilty was
to say that he was mentally unwell, and he claimed
that he has bipolar disorder, and then he was in

(37:21):
a manic state and delusional, et cetera, et cetera. And
I mean to us, it's like, well, of course you're
going to say that you're you know, mentally unwell or insane,
and you can't claim that you're mentally insane if you
plotted and planned this kidnapping with a group of people,
you know, for half of a year. So I'm not

(37:44):
surprised that he went that route, but that's the route
that he went on, and so he was very strategic
when he did interviews with media later, like I'm you know,
I'm saying I'm not guilty. And there's the law. He's
a Harvard trained lawyer, so he knows what he's doing.
I have no doubt that he's probably struggled mentally. And

(38:05):
I felt that when I was in captivity, and that
was part of my defense. I thought, Okay, I could
feel from him that because he kept wanting to talk
to me and tell me that he has PTSD. I
was in the military. This is the only way I
can earn a living, you know, So I kind of
would turn to him and listen and like he wanted

(38:26):
to talk, So okay, I'm going to be your therapist,
you know, just trying to build a rapport, trying to
connect with him as a human because I thought that
might be the only way to get me out alive,
and I think, yeah, it felt very much too like
if I provoked him, I antagonized him, it might fit

(38:49):
the narrative that he had or maybe of a past
experience and would take out whatever that was on me.
So I wanted to make sure I didn't push him
over the end edge and kind of handled him with
care and showed him too that he could trust me
to not react, not fight, so then maybe it could

(39:10):
show him that he could release me and I would
still be compliant.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
And what were his actions and what was the dialogue
around the time that he decided to let you go,
at the time he decided to drive you back to
your parents' house. Do you remember was there a point
that you think he switched? Was this something that you said?
Was something that Hey said?

Speaker 4 (39:32):
He maintained from the beginning, this was intended for Andrea.
This we were hired by an outside person. It's we're
going to hold you for forty eight hours and then
we're going to release you. And it was always that
because I would say to him anytime he was there,
I'm like, I don't I know you're going to kill me.
I know you're going to I know you are, And
he would say, no, I'm not. That's not what it

(39:54):
I'm you know, that's not what we're in this for.
We're startup companies to show people. So even if there
is media coverage, it's actually good pr for us because
it shows that we can complete these things and not
kill and not overreact and kill the victim, that we
can follow through. And so he kept saying at forty

(40:16):
eight hours, forty eight hours, and he wasn't beating me
or really physically being violent. He raped me. But I
kept thinking, Okay, like, I'm going to wait this out.
But I knew if that forty eight hours came and
went and he made up some excuse, any excuse not
to release me, then I knew that I would have

(40:37):
to switch gears and figure out not have not to
take the sedative, and somehow find a way to fight back.
But sure enough, he woke me up in the middle
of the night and said, Okay, we're gonna go. He
had said that he couldn't release me in the Bay
area because police were looking for me. He said that
he wanted to release me to where I can get

(41:00):
to my family. So I told him where I grew up,
and we decided on a cross roads that was I
didn't want him to know exactly where my parents lived,
but it was all my driver's license and he had
my purse, so it was like, I can't really lie
to him. But it was a little less than a
mile from my mom's house, and so he and even

(41:21):
in the car, I wasn't sure if he just kept
saying this just to keep me compliant and calm. And
there's one moment where he stopped at a rest stop
to say I could go to the bathroom, and I realized,
oh my god, it's dead quiet, like this is where
he's going to kill me. And he opened a door

(41:41):
and I was alone in a camp site bathroom, and
I thought, holy shit, he really is going to release me.
Like you know, I was in shock and disbelief in
it all. And yeah, and I even too, was like
he's just telling me he's going to release me near
my family's house. And when he drove off and I

(42:03):
peeled off, I had tape over my eyes. I peeled
off the tape and I started walking down the street
and I saw that I was in my neighborhood and
that's when it just finally sunk in, Like it I
mean He followed through.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Denise, what was the media coverage up until that point
and at what point did it switch to we thought
it was Aaron, Now this is the real life gone goal.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
Well, I didn't see the media at the time, and
I didn't even right after the kidnapping. I think I
saw Nancy Grace's peace and I was like, I can't,
I can't watch the shit. Yeah, and even my family's like,
don't read the comments, don't you know? So I really
didn't pay attention, but you know, later looking back pretty quickly,

(42:52):
almost immediately, it was why did the boyfriend wait whatever
eleven hours to call? And even then my dad was
asked that question and I was still missing, and my
dad had no idea what was happening to me. The
one person who should be the most irrational and hysterical said, well,
maybe he was tied up, maybe he was drugged. And

(43:13):
it's like, if like my dad can come up with
that and law enforcement in the media can't, it's kind
of maddening, I think then, because I was forced to
record a proof of life to verify that I was
alive the day that I was alive, because I had
to give a current event and a personal fact about me,
and the media would say it was like, Wow, she's

(43:37):
really calm again, not realizing that I'm sedated heavily. My
family couldn't recognize me, Aaron, It's like she's scared. But
everyone else's interpretation is like, whoa, she's too calm. Henry Lee,
the reporter who was on the Netflix series again in

(43:57):
the series, goes it sounds like she's ordering off the menu,
like fucking fucking kill me. Like what the yeah, Like
what do you what am I supposed to do? Like
I've been told, I'm like, need to record this. I
was just given another sedative. It could hardly hold. He
had me recite and repeat over and over again. This
wasn't a live phone call where I'm calling in and

(44:19):
I had the chance with my mom and save me.
Like I I had to do the task. I completed
the task, and then I'm being punished for it. Same
thing of like I, oh, she shows up alive, Well,
thank god, I'm alive. But I guess you guys aren't
happy that I'm alive, sorry that I survived this.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
You know, It's not like there's a handbook for being
keeping up in the middle of the not by a
stranger and ripes for two days then released. And there's
no right or wrong way for any victim in any
situation to act, and the media and the police should
know that.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
That's what's so infuriating.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
And I'm so sorry that you had to go through
that and ty thing, and then you come out and
you think, oh my god, I'm safe, like these are
the people They're going to look after me and help
bring us to justice, and then they just fuck you.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
Yeah. Well, And it made it even more terrifying because
Mueller in captivity, the way that he said, we will
be watching you, we will know what you say, and
the arrogance he was not afraid of getting caught at all.
And he even told me, Aaron went to police, you'll

(45:33):
have to speak to them. These are the things you
can and can't say. He of course told me, you
can't say that you were He's called it us having sex,
but you can't say that you were raped, or that
I was in the military. But it made me wonder
why so quickly I was not only not believed, but attacked,

(45:54):
like immediately, the first interaction I had with the Vallejo
detective Mustard was him saying that he was going to
offer me a profit of agreement. I haven't even spoken
to him. I spoke to Huntington Beach Police, but I'm thinking, like,
the kidnapping's not over, it's continuing on. This is phase two,
and someone in law enforcement's involved, is what I was

(46:15):
thinking at the time, Like why else would they do this? Why,
like are they trying to frame us like? It didn't
make sense to me, and it made it even more frightening,
and I felt we have no one to turn to.
I was happy to find out that FBI was involved
because I thought, okay, like here are these are the

(46:37):
real professionals, And it was just the same thing, if
not worse.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
So consistently throughout your story, I'm hearing the expectation of
you to perform how people want you to. It's more
than just not being believed you were actually offered an
immunity agreement toout Aaron. It's almost as though that was
used as a bargaining tool to try and get one
of you crack before the other one, Like they were
trying to play you off against each other because they
didn't believe either of your stories.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, meanwhile, while not actually looking for the person that did.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
It absolutely right.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
If it weren't for a police officer quite far away
connected to a different crime that he had also committed,
I think your story would be very, very different. So
when did you first hear from Misty?

Speaker 4 (47:22):
So we didn't. We didn't talk to Misty until twenty eighteen.
I didn't even know exactly the details of the investigation
other than Moulery attacked and other family and what was
reported on the news as far as him leaving the
cell phone and that's how they traced the call and
the FBIA for davevid. We learned a little bit more

(47:42):
about that home invasion and some of the things that
they investigated and what then they later found as far
as the goggles and the blonde hair. But now what
I know is that when Misty contacted the FBI and said,
you know that case that you called a hoax, I

(48:04):
think there's a connection here, they went in and took
all the evidence and took over the case, and so
she was done with it, and then they move forward
with whatever version of an investigation that they had. And
I mean it's unfortunate because I feel like if Missy
state on the case, you would have pursued leads that

(48:25):
were very obviously there, and again things would have been different.
And then even because we of what happened and how
the FBI originally treated us, they didn't question us for
more information. It was just kind of like, this is
what we're doing. And it was and now we're suddenly
we were suspects and then we're going to prosecute you

(48:47):
and you can get jail time to oh, you're victims,
and we're going to need you to speak in court
and you're really reliable sources. Yet we don't believe this
huge chunk of information about why you think that there's
other people, But you are such good, you know, victims
and telling what happened that it's really important for you

(49:08):
to be on the stand. And so it was just
this really and also we can't speak publicly, and if
you speak publicly and share all these fuck ups, then
it could negatively impact the criminal case and Moler might
get less time. And so now we're in a physition

(49:28):
where we have to stay silent even though the facts
of the case are being misrepresented, misreported, and we just
we have to wait it out because our primary goal
is to make sure this man does not hurt another family,
and we tried to do that initially and we were ignored,

(49:50):
and he attacked another fucking family. So you know, the
amount of pressure and expectations of victims, not just you know,
right after and reporting the crime, but all the things
that we have to do after to make sure that
they get the conviction that is needed to protect the public,

(50:14):
to protect other victims. It's incredible and but like that
was our main focus.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
The whole premise of law is innocent until proven guilty,
but you guys work guilty until proven innocent the entire time.
Not only were the police not reprimanded for fault off
to fault off default actually that's too kind, fuck up
after fuck up, but they ended up one of the
officers ended up getting a promotion and he won an

(50:43):
award I saw.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
How does that make you feel when you watch that buck?

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Now?

Speaker 4 (50:46):
Oh yeah, everyone got promoted. Yeah, I mean, that's one
of those laughable humor moments that is not funny, but
you like, either you laugh or you cry because it's
just insane. One of the reporters who had done really
great reporting consistently after Muller was caught, she had reached

(51:07):
out to us to say, hey, we're gonna have this
report come out. You know it might be triggering, but
Detective Mustard got awarded Officer of the Year, and it's like,
I still like I laugh, Like I straight up laughed
out loud because I'm like, like, it's it's insane. It
is ridiculous. It is like you really need to stroke

(51:30):
his ego that much. The same year that he fucked
up this kidnapping and we named him in a civil lawsuit,
so there's a civil lawsuit in the works, but he's
getting Officer of the Year. I mean, it's it's so ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
It's like you cannot write it. You cannot write it.
Right with that lawsuit you guys sued for defamation. Was
there ever accountability taken? Was there ever an apology? Was
it wherever people who came to you and said, I'm
really sorry I did this. I'm really sorry that I
didn't believe you. I fucked up, and I just want
to apologize for my own mistakes.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
So they're one of the agents did later on. But
as far as the Valejo Police and everyone involved, from
the Chief of police to the the captain to everyone
their counters through their lawyers, is we did nothing wrong.
All your claims are substantiated. We were valid in believing

(52:33):
this and treating you that way because you didn't act
like a victim, because you were calm, you were wearing sunglasses,
you had bags, like I didn't have control over that.
He took my bags and then he dropped me off
with the bags, like I that's not up to me.
Like he put sunglasses on my head, I still had
them on. So it was just more and more rounds

(52:56):
of victim blaming. It's not us, it's you, it's your fault.
We did nothing wrong, and there has never been any
accountability with any of them from Vallejo and or that
lead FBI agent Sasma. Again, he's gotten promoted and blame
circumstances and not taking accountability. I think he even might have,

(53:20):
from what I've heard, claim that he stayed on the
case because he built a good rapport with me, Like, oh,
what the fuck are you talking about? Because I was
polite to you, Like I mean, that's another thing I
don't think people realize that's really bullshit. Is you're in
the worst moments of your life and these law enforcement
people and authority come in and they say, hey, how's

(53:41):
it going, Oh, I heard you lived on the East Coast.
How was that? Oh, so you're a physical therapist and
you have to do this small talk bullshit because you're
entertaining them because you don't want to be disrespectful, because
you're hoping that they will help you. And that's not rapport.
That's it's wasting time. It's wasting my mental energy, my

(54:03):
physical energy, like get stuff done.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
You've also just come from performing, like you've just come
from this whole feeling like you needed to build rapport
with your attaka, and you've been put into almost the
same situation where you're like, how am I best going
to do? How am I best going to get through this?

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Well? So what a dumb question like oh where are
you from? I was just right like, I like, why
does that matter where I'm from?

Speaker 4 (54:29):
Right? Yeah, I mean that's definitely something I hope that
they can change because it's yeah, it's it's really ridiculous.
And also too, it's like you weren't even the it
wasn't real rapport. He was he was trying to manipulate
me because he believed that I committed a hoax. So
it's not actually rapport. You're just trying to essentially. I

(54:52):
mean that was like, also one of the most terrifying
realizations after this is hearing what Aaron went through with
his interrogations and all of what we experienced with law enforcement.
This psychological manipulation and quite frankly torture was the same
as how I was treated in captivity. They read the

(55:13):
same book and they did the same tactics. And when
you can't distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys,
I think that's a serious problem. And hopefully again they
can self reflect and make changes. But as far as
Bileo police themselves, or at least the ones that were
involved in this case, I don't.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
I think accountability has to be the first step of that,
to recognize that something needs to change.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
Yeah, And that's also another thing too. It's like they
probably could have saved a lawsuit if they just straight up,
face to face said you know what, I'm sorry. I
believe this, Like we understood why they doubted parts of it.
It was so hard to believe, even living through it,
that this was happening. No one expects to be woken
up in the middle of the night and attacked or

(56:03):
attacked on the street, or you know, like you don't
walk around expecting that, otherwise you'd live your life in terror,
and so like, I can understand why parts of it
was hard to believe, but again, they didn't follow the evidence.
You can believe what you want to believe, but do
your job follow the evidence. And they didn't do that.

(56:24):
And then it's like, Okay, you messed up. Just admit
I made a mistake. How can I learn from this
and not make another mistake and not put innocent victims
through this again? And they just refuse to do that.
That is what is much more frightening. I think to me,
we're all capable of making mistakes, but how we learn
from them is key, and they didn't learn.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
The message in the docku series was definitely that the
police took no accountability and fucked up, which I think
is brilliant that it's out there because I didn't realize
how a nipped they were until I watched the docu series.
But one thing I think a lot of people, thinking
myself included, is that most people you would assume when
they go through something so horrific and so traumatic as
a couple, it would drive them apart. It would cause

(57:09):
so much guilt on both of your behalves that maybe
you could have done something differently to save it.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
Why did this happen?

Speaker 1 (57:15):
So much stress, so much trauma that you both have
to work through. But for you and Aaron, it appears
from the outside to be the opposite, because you look
like you have an amazing life now and you're married
and you have children. Was there ever a time that
that was going to go another way?

Speaker 4 (57:29):
I mean, the first year was really hard, but I
didn't really doubt whether us being together was the right decision.
It was, you know, like the reason why we stayed
together is because we belong together. Like I said in
the beginning, our chemistry was undeniable. We feed off of
each other well, We were each other as big as

(57:51):
fans and cheerleader. And the one thing that we never
did ever was blame one another. And our families never
blamed anyone, you know, So there was never any of
that dynamic and that was a key thing to help
us through it as individuals and as a couple. Both
of our families were incredibly supportive and helpful. And there

(58:15):
was of course this self doubt and the self guilt
and blame, and that was more individual internal to ourselves,
and we went through couples therapy and we discussed a
lot of those types of insecurities and fears, and it
was a lot of hard work, but we got through it,
and we understood each other on a level that I

(58:38):
don't think many people could, you know, so and a
lot of this, you mean, even just going through the
court cases and dealing with law enforcement and then speaking publicly.
I don't think we really could do it if we
didn't have each other.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
You know.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
There's moments where I'm completely wiped out and Aaron's the
one who's strong and taking over things, and then sometimes
that role switches, and then sometimes we're both defeated and
we just have to like lay on the couch and
accept that. And that's fine too. So I think like
kind of accepting that it's not a straight line to recovery,

(59:16):
and there's ups and downs, and we give each other
and ourselves ourselves a lot of grace as much as
we can. I think being in the professions that we
are as physical therapists and helping others heal and find
peace and overcoming obstacles helps us understand even trauma and
the brain and the body and recovery, so we have

(59:40):
that advantage as well. So I think there's a lot
of pieces that helped us see through the other end.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Denise, You guys have gone on to have a beautiful family.
What's the significance of the day that your daughter was born?

Speaker 4 (59:58):
I think instantly I want to cry, like so, yeah,
she was born March twenty fifth, twenty twenty, which is
five years to the day that I was released from
the kidnapping, which is just insane. I mean, it's really
like life truly coming full circle and creating new memories,

(01:00:22):
new meaning having you know, because I'm sure a lot
of people who've gone through a traumatic event, the anniversary
around that time is always retriggering, like the smells in
the air, you know, there's just so much that brings
you back to that place. And now we get the
opportunity to have this amazing little human who's just so

(01:00:47):
sweet and full of life and innocence, and you know,
we get to experience life all over again through her
eyes and guide her through it, and that's just amazing.
We have another little girl, and just seeing them interact
and I mean that's certainly, Oh, it refuels you and

(01:01:09):
motivates you any moment where I'm like I can't do this,
I can't put myself out there publicly again, like look
what happened, you know? But then I'm like, well, fuck,
Like things need to change, and things aren't going to
change if people don't know how bad this is. So
we need to make sure we are doing whatever we
can for those little girls.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Deniseha's story is truly incredible, But the most incredible part
about the story is not what happened. It's you and
Aaron and the way you have handled it and the
way you were speaking about it and trying to make
change and getting up and doing podcasts like this, which
we appreciate we know can't be easy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
But the fact that the story.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Also focused on the victims instead of the perpetrator, and
I know that that was a pretty active decision by
the producers. Did you have much of a site in
the way that this documentary came together? Did you get
any oiva saw any changes?

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
What was that like, Oh, yeah, we would not have
worked with them if it would have been different. We Again,
it's just hard for I think anyone to understand how
difficult it is to go through this process. Of trying
to tell your story publicly in the quote unquote entertainment
industry because you don't have any power as a subject.

(01:02:29):
And we knew we wanted to write a book before
we did anything, because we knew anything on film was
going to be edited contractually. When you enter these types
of projects, all the power is in the people with
the money, the networks and the producers, and it's written
in the language like we get to use your life, rights,

(01:02:50):
your name, exploit, dramatize whatever in any way that we can.
So it's a big leap of faith. And we've entered
some things where we've had to get out of because
it did not match. This isn't what we agreed to.
It's been like it's really big fights to get out
of contracts. And so when we talked with Raw the

(01:03:11):
production company, we saw tender swin there, we saw other
works that they did. It was very victim centric. So
we've seen the proof is in the pudding. They've already
done this. This is what they not just what they're claiming,
but what they're showing that they're doing. They already had
contracts with Netflix, so Netflix was already on board with that.
And again we had many many talks with Netflix with

(01:03:32):
them before, like we had them write and outline before
we moved forward, and even along the way there's still
you know, differences and opinion of what should be highlighted
or not. But I think ultimately like they they showed
the emotion around it, They highlighted the really important pieces,

(01:03:55):
and the overall message and theme that people were taken
away with is why we wanted to do this, And
so yeah, it was a lot of work and we're
grateful that we were able to find the right team
finally to do it and that it was received well,
which I think, just on another side note, is encouraging
to me because I think in twenty fifteen things would

(01:04:17):
have been very different of how true crime was structured,
and people are wanting to hear more from victims. It's
less about what's the perpetrator up to There's some people
who still want to focus on that, but it's more
what's the bigger picture and seeing more about the systemic
flaws and wanting to make change. So I think that

(01:04:38):
says a lot about who we are as a society
and an audience as well. So it's yeah, it's overall,
like I'm just really pleased with how it all turned out, Dennise.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
I also think that while reliving these experiences on such
a large scale would cause so much pain, I know
that there would be so so so many people, particularly women,
who would be feeling as though they could relate to you.
Yours is obviously the extreme version, but far too often
victims are not believed. Do you feel as though going

(01:05:10):
through this process of reliving it and having more and
more people hear your story, do you think it has
been worth the positive outcome?

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
Yes? And I need continued therapy, Like I just yeah,
it's been physically really painful the last month, and it's
frustrating for myself and I almost feel ashamed because it's
like everyone's been so nice. I mean, it's insane how
many people from all over the world have reached out
and shared their stories with me and saying how strong

(01:05:40):
and brave I am. And then I'm at home, you know,
with my stomach sick and then a ball and going
I'm not brave and strong. Like if I feel this way, you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Know, they can run parallel to each other.

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
Correct And I have to keep reminding myself that because logically, logically,
I know that internally that where the work still lies,
you know. So we've come we both have come a
long way, and we've made progress, and I think it's
just part of the realization if if we do put
ourselves out there, we need that extra assistance to help
get us through it, because it's a part of our

(01:06:15):
healing to be able to share and try to connect
to people on a more global scale, and we need
to attend to these deep wounds as well, So we'll
keep working on it personally and then also on these projects.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
So Denise, I can't thank you enough for giving us
your story and your time today, because, like you just said,
that's not easy and I can't imagine what it's like
having to relive it. But you're doing it for you
as much as you're doing it for past victims. And
I know that you just said you get a little
bit nervous about putting yourself out there again and telling
your story again because the response in the past hasn't

(01:06:53):
necessarily been amazing. But I want you to know that
we are on your team, and I know our audience
is on your team too, and that's why we're doing
this today. And we just wish you nothing but an amazing, healthy,
wonderful future.

Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
Well, thank you, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Wow, that was incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I feel very lucky to have been able to speak
with Denise. Something that we know far too well from
the people who've spoken to on the podcast is that
going back and reliving these stories can be really traumatizing,
and it can bring up a lot of emotions that
maybe it would be easier to not have to revisit
that time in your life. But Denise is doing this
for a purpose, and that purpose is not only to

(01:07:32):
make other victims feel as though they too should be believed,
but in an effort to change the fact that law
enforcement they do need to do better. They fell so
short so many times in her story. Without people like
her speaking about it, I don't see that change coming about.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Yeah. She's an incredibly strong woman and I completely take
my hat off to her, and I'm grateful that she
gave us her time today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Yeah. So, if you did enjoy this episode, please do
a lot of the podcast thing like subscribe, share it
with a friend, share.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
It with a friend, because so many people, we know
fifty million people have seen this on Netflix, so so
many people that have enjoyed it on Netflix and got
something out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Are going to get even more out of this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Episode, so please share it with a friend. And if
you want to go and watch this whole interview, you
can on our YouTube channel. We'll put the link in
our show notes so you can just jump on there
and click it if you want to go and have
a search for it now. It's just YouTube dot com,
Forward Slash at lifeun cup podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Also, if this is the type of conversation that you
really enjoy, we have two episodes linked in our show notes.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
One is with.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
The Panilla and Cecilia from the Tinderswinder.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
The same producers of American Nightmare HM.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
And we also spoke to Kayla Laws. She was involved
in the Netflix Docky series about revenge porn.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
It was called Is Anybody Up? It came out a
couple of years ago and it was a really.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Interesting conversation with her about having something happen to her
that was not yet illegal and watching the prosecution of
that man for a very different crime that he committed.
So links to those are in the show notes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
And you know the drill

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Tee, mum ty dad tea, dog tea, Friends and share
the love because we love love