Episode 20: A Conversation with Psychotherapist and Genspect Founder Stella O'Malley

In this riveting episode, we are joined by Genspect founder and experienced psychotherapist from Ireland with a deep understanding of gender issues, Stella O'Malley.

Stella shares her journey, starting from her 2018 documentary "Trans Kids: A Time to Talk," to her current role as Director at Genspect, an organization advocating for a non-medicalized approach to gender non-conformity. She provides a compelling narrative about her own experiences with gender dysphoria and the importance of allowing children to navigate their identities without medical interventions.

Dive into discussions about the implications of puberty blockers, the dangers of sexualizing children, and the controversial subject of Drag Queen Story Hour. Stella also sheds light on the complex world of detransitioners and the psychological aspects of gender identity.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the nuanced perspectives on gender dysphoria, child protection, and the impact of societal influences on young minds. Tune in to hear Stella O'Malley's expert insights and join the conversation about safeguarding our children’s futures.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Dark Side of the Rainbow. This is Robert Wallace,
and this is a Gaze Against Groomers production.
Today we have Stella O'Malley, and Stella is a psychotherapist out of Ireland.
She has been in this fight for quite some time.
I was just discussing with her the initial documentary that she put out in 2018

(00:22):
called Trans Kids, A Time to Talk. So it's worth going back and taking a look
at the origin stories of how this moved into the public's arena.
She's got five books to her name, and she's joining us right now.
How are you doing, Stella? I'm doing well. How are you? Fantastic.
So you are a director at Genspec,

(00:42):
and Genspec is an important organization who's trying to ensure that correct
protocols calls and considerations when it comes to this whole transing of kids
are put into place that we're protecting kids and that this unreasonable movement is under control.
Can you give us some background about how you got into the subject and what

(01:06):
you're doing at Genspec?
Yeah, well, more than anything, Genspec is putting forward a non-medicalized
view of gender non-conformity.
And so far as, you know, boys and girls can feel as they wish,
you know, they can wear whatever they want to wear.
But that doesn't mean we should medicalize them. I think medicalizing people's
bodies because of their identities is a reckless intervention that we've never done before.

(01:28):
We've never medicalized identities before.
And so we are explicitly pro non-medicalized approach towards gender dysphoria.
So it started, well, if you go way back when I was a kid, I was one of those kids.
I was one of those kind of, I was very extreme tomboy
as they called them back then and I wanted to be a boy and

(01:49):
I presented like that for many many years it goes
back to let's say you know when I was about three when it
started and I wanted to be a boy I thought I should be a boy I played with the
boys I hung out with the boys I hated girls by the way I was complete misogynist
taught everything I think girlish was like the worst insult you could kind of
put on somebody and that lasted many many many years and then when I went through

(02:13):
puberty it was harrowing,
it was really disturbing and really disorientating and I realised.
I was stuck with my body. And I also realized a very profound but frightening
truth that nature was bigger than me and that I could kind of convince everybody
in the room that I was the best boy.
But actually, nature was overpowering my body and changing my body.

(02:34):
So that was kind of a shocking and horrible time.
And I moved on. I ultimately became comfortable in my own skin.
I ultimately was perfectly happy that I hadn't trans.
Had I been offered puberty blockers at the time, I would have taken the hand off you.
I would have been so fast to take them because it would have been exactly what
I wanted because I hated puberty.
But the sexual awakening that happens, and I know we're very uncomfortable around

(02:57):
the sexual awakening that happens between the ages of around about 10 and 20,
but it does happen to humans.
And that sexual awakening was what brought me out of my gender issues.
And it's kind of ironic that of all things they're trying to do is stop a sexual
awakening by giving them puberty blockers. So I think it's a completely inappropriate intervention.

(03:19):
Anyway, life went on. I ultimately became a psychotherapist when I was in my
30s. So I was kind of late kind of finding my career.
And I started writing books about parenting, children, teenagers and stuff like
that. And then I was invited.
I wrote an article. I often wrote for the national media in Ireland.
And at the time, I decided to write an article about trans issues,

(03:40):
thinking it was all a bit mad.
And this even when you said it there the concept of trans issues jarred on me because trans kids.
Jarred on me as a phrase I was like well what's what's a
trans kid I would have been a trans kid but what did they mean by that like
you know I mean it's a gender non-conforming kid it's a kid who wants to be
the opposite sex or whatever so because I wrote that article I was invited to

(04:02):
do the film when I did the film that was 2018 it was in the UK channel for trans
kids it's time to talk did that.
And it was a baptism by fire. It was the maddest year of my life.
I had no idea about any of these issues. I'd never heard of rapid onset gender
dysphoria. I'd never heard of autogynephilia.
I'd never heard of all of these things.

(04:23):
I had no idea feminists were being silenced. I had no idea that lesbians were
seeking to transition and things like that.
And so that extraordinary year led me to other issues because when the film
came out, I was has inundated my email box to this day.
Became a place, a source of pain because I get so many emails,

(04:44):
so many devastated stories from not just detransitioners, but also people who are lost in transition.
They transitioned and they're disappointed, but they're there,
you know what I mean? They don't really know what to do. Kind of past point of no return.
And then also an awful lot of parents were worried about their kids.
Everybody was emailing me and they still do. And so ultimately for years,

(05:05):
I avoided setting up anything.
For years, I just kind of worked a little bit with this, worked a bit with detransitioners,
started a parents group in COVID.
But the number of contacts I was getting just made it silly that I was just being so small about it.
And we needed a bigger organization that would advocate for how about a non-medicalized approach to this?

(05:27):
How about not medicalizing your identity?
And so we started Genspect in 2021.
And it's huge. I didn't think it'd be that big. Wow.
Well, that's that's an amazing, you know, a baptism by fire.
You know, when you're watching that film, you know, that was like just kind
of emerging onto the mainstream consciousness.

(05:47):
So it was kind of a baptism by fire for everybody, I think, to witness all that.
There was a crazy there's a crazy scene in the movie where, you know,
these feminists are trying to have a meeting and these trans activists with
masks. Now, this is 2018.
We've never had COVID. So there was no mask. So I was like, why are these young
people with masks on? What the hell is going on?
And they came in and they tried to destroy the electronic equipment of our film.

(06:11):
And it was, and they were really silent.
They were coming in and they were silently trying to, and usually with a riot
or an attack, it's loud and aggressive.
And I was like, these are the strangest people. What are they doing?
And they compared us to Nazis. And I was like,
this is just, this is crazy town. And so I used to ring my husband saying,

(06:33):
you'll never guess what's happened now.
And he was hearing about it, go, wow, like I, it was like, I just discovered
this underworld that I had no idea about.
And I tried for, by the way, I tried for a few years to leave that world.
I released a book on anxiety a year later, you know, I tried to kind of move
out of it, but like the sheer volume of contact of people seeking help made

(06:56):
me feel like you couldn't say no.
I'm a psychotherapist by nature. I look towards the psychological and how can we help?
And it just felt like this is massively neglected as an issue.
Absolutely. And you've really been a part of clarifying that for everybody with
your organization, Genspec.
You know, when we talk about one of the missions of Gays Against Groomers is

(07:19):
we're standing against the indoctrination,
sexualization and mutilation or medicalization of children.
And when we're talking about the sexualizing of kids,
we have that happening in the form of exposure to pride events and the exposure
to these parades or drag queen story hour,
or just what's happening in schools where they got the books in there that are

(07:43):
propagandizing these ideas and the gay pride flag,
gay homosexuality is a sexuality, or sexualizing their environment and their ideas there.
What would you say is, you know, for the people who think this is necessary
for kids to be exposed to this trans ideology and.
You know, the whole gamut of sexuality early on, what you see is the negative

(08:05):
consequence to early exposure from your perspective as a psychotherapist. Right.
Two basic reasons would be, you know, anybody who knows anything about child
development realizes that you speak to children at their level.
And so there's a reason we don't teach Shakespeare to five-year-olds,

(08:25):
because if we did try to, it's too complex.
They'd get a a mangled understanding of it, and it would ruin their understanding
that when they were introduced to it at an age-appropriate time.
And so you should stage your teaching of children anything to make sure that
it's a developmentally appropriate time.
Because otherwise you're wrecking it on them. You're wrecking their experience,

(08:47):
you're wrecking their understanding of it, and you're wrecking their future
kind of joy in what could be garnered from the thing.
So that's number one. And the second reason I think it's very important to highlight
is that exposing children to sexual content is child abuse.
And so that's an actual established and recognized element of child abuse,

(09:09):
which people seem to have kind of collectively forgotten. cotton.
And so, you know, I remember reading, you know, Russell Brand,
the comedian, or I'm not sure, the man, anyway, Russell Brand,
he wrote a very powerful book about his childhood.
And he talked about how his father used to kind of put on porn films every Saturday
when he visited him. And it was a child abuse.

(09:32):
The kid was just exposed to porn every single Saturday when he visited his dad.
You know what I mean? It's not appropriate. The reason why is when,
if you remember being a kids, when you are exposed to sexual content,
it makes you feel creepy because you're not yet sexualized.
And it's a horrible feeling.
And our job as adults is to protect children from this sexual kind of content.

(09:54):
And it's it's like I say, it's like the adults have forgotten that aspect of
child sex abuse and they think it's only, you know, a physical thing when actually
exposure really, really impacts.
Well, I'll try to make a point of focusing on that myself because,
you know, I really like taking up these little points that we forget and then,

(10:15):
you know, reminding people because
it's like, oh, that was what we talked about a couple of years ago.
We're past that now. We can't get past that or we've normalized it.
So that's a great point. You were talking about the point of no return,
some of these people that you hear from, and aside of, I guess,
the obvious of the actual surgeries, top and bottom surgeries,

(10:38):
which aside of reconstructive surgery or whatever, it is at the point of no return.
Do the trans people that you hear from get to that point before then,
maybe with the HRT or puberty blockers? Oh, they can.
It depends on the person. It's extraordinary when you look at the impact of,
for example, testosterone on the female.

(10:58):
Like, you know the way some people can go to a bar and they can have a few pints
and they're not really drunk and somebody else goes to a bar and has a few pints
and they're absolutely twisted.
And it depends on the chemical makeup of the person. Listen,
it's the very same as far as I can gather with hormones, that some people take
hormones and their voice might go a little bit lower and they might get some hair.

(11:20):
But it's nothing compared to somebody else whose voice turns into this kind
of baritone very quickly, who get hair all over their body, whose skin completely
masculinizes their face,
their body broadens and they become recognizably male very fast.
And for some very very very heavily

(11:41):
and so when somebody's face and voice is
masculinized it can be very much a point of no return for some because they
feel everything like part of genspect is beyond trans and we offer therapeutic
we offer funding for therapy for people who have been harmed by medical transition
and we also offer you know therapeutic support groups and and things like that.

(12:05):
And a lot of them would feel that they, for example, women who were born women,
they medically transitioned, and they might have just taken testosterone.
They might have even had a mastectomy. They might have just taken testosterone, but they...
They present as completely male. And every time they speak, it's male.
So out in the outer world, they're perceived as male. They're sir,

(12:25):
mister, everywhere they go.
And then in their inner world, the people who know them might perceive them
as women because they know who they are. And they might call them she and her.
And it's a very schizophrenic life they're living. If you follow me, because out,
you know, at the bus stop, you know, at the train station,
everybody thinks you're male and they often become very
isolated because meeting strangers is frankly hard work

(12:48):
they're always kind of navigating between the two so
for for some people that point of no return and
that's the phrase it hits them hard some of them say i don't care i'm reverting
back i might present as male everybody might view me as male but i'm female
and i'm going to present i'm going to tell everybody i'm female people have
very very different views about this so some people who medically transition

(13:11):
and regret it, stay trans.
Some people who medically transition, detransition and tell everybody,
it was all a mistake, I'm very angry.
A lot of people, which is a kind of unacknowledged group, they're effectively stealth detransition.
They've stopped taking their hormones. They're furious.
They come to places like Beyond Trans. They're getting funding,

(13:34):
not funding, they're getting therapy.
And they're very angry, but nobody in the community knows that they're angry
because they lose all their friends.
They lose all their network. They lose everything.
And so they're kind of living stealth detransition.
I know it's brain-boggling. This is always, this subject is always brain-boggling,

(13:54):
but it's a kind of a new group that isn't, nobody seems to be talking about.
Yeah. And all of my conversating with people and my personal exposure to this,
I haven't really heard of or considered that there would be people somehow managing
to put themselves or through a stealth transition.
So that's fun to know about. Maybe they... Well, there's stealth transition

(14:18):
and there's stealth detransition.
Oh, detransition, that's right.
Yeah. So there's some people who are stealth and they live as a woman or as
a man and they're actually, what's the word? They're trans and they haven't told anybody.
And some of them have detransitioned and it's brain melting, like everything.
It's always like Alice in Wonderland, whatever. up is down and black is blue.

(14:39):
Absolutely. So you were mentioning how you started a parent's group during COVID.
And I take it most all of these parents are dealing with a trans identifying child.
That's safe to say. Have you noticed any commonalities? You know,
statistically, we know that, you know, a majority of trans identifying individuals

(15:02):
are dealing somewhere on the autism spectrum and most of them are gay.
Would you say that there are any other kind of background dramas or consistencies
between these people? Yeah, there's loads.
So, you know, I was at the first ever Detransition Conference.
It was in 2019, November.

(15:23):
And these two women kind of came up to me in the toilets, the public toilets.
And they said, would you do a group for parents?
I had spoke at the conference and I looked at them going, oh, yeah, I'm so busy.
And oh, you know what I mean? You make these noises. And I said,
you know, here's my email.
I'll catch you maybe one day. And then COVID happened in March 2020,

(15:43):
a few months later. and I suddenly had loads of free time.
So I said, yeah, go on, I'll try a parents' meeting. I have free time coming out of my ears here.
And that meeting immediately turned into two meetings a week,
three meetings a week, four meetings a week, five meetings a week.
And that first meeting was when I realized the answer to your question and it was astonishing.
It was, these are the most vulnerable children.

(16:05):
These are the kids who are lonely, who have been in their bedroom for ages, who've been bullied.
They almost all had a trauma. almost all had some sort of event that happened
that they ended up in their room on their own, seeking a kind of an escape from themselves.
The levels of autism and ADHD and neurodiversity in general are all,

(16:27):
they're astronomically high.
I think it's under assessed in the research.
But not only that, some of them were gay, some of them bisexual,
some of them lesbian. And I think all of them nearly lonely,
just lonely kids, quirky, kind of cerebral kids.
These are kind of big, kind of nerdy types.
They're kind of clever. They're a bit disconnected from their body.

(16:50):
Often very kind of creative and they're kind of
beguiled by this idea that you could be a different person with
a different body and a different identity and you could join this
group and you'd be a whole new person you can create that person and create
their name but ironically i don't think it's it's kind of i don't shouldn't
say ironically but i don't think it's really noted that an awful lot of the

(17:10):
parents are also neurodiverse and often you know it's are very often hereditary,
you know, to be conditioned.
And so often the parents are looking for a framework there because when you're
neurodiverse, you might be looking more keen for a framework,
kind of a clear pathway ahead.
Black is black and white is white, and the grey areas make them feel uncomfortable.

(17:32):
And so they can be very keen to, for example, affirm saying,
okay, well, that's the problem. Now we go for the solution.
Rather than living in the uncertainty of life is messy, you don't want to be yourself.
Yourself that can be part of life and you
kind of you know there's a great line from the mindfulness guru
wherever you go there you are you're kind of stuck with

(17:53):
who you are and you can try and change the outside
you can try and do lots of things you'll always wake up the same way and go
to sleep the same way and come out with the same embarrassing things that you've
always come out with you you can't escape yourself so it's it's very important
that people realize that medical transition is a desire to leave yourself behind
and become somebody new.

(18:14):
And we have lived through the whole well-being psychological kind of movement
where people are told to accept themselves and love themselves.
And this is very, very definitely not accepting of yourself. Absolutely.
That is the hard part to get around is, you know, people are like,
you know, love yourself exactly as you just said.

(18:35):
But the last thing that's happening in this This case is accepting of the self.
I have to change in order to love myself.
My gender, physical gender doesn't determine my my sex or whatever.
But yet I can change it. And somehow that's going to change it.
I myself, you know, I thought I was asexual for.
I didn't, you know, for quite a while. And I would have happily have sought

(18:57):
castration to be a eunuch, you know, caused me to put up breaks on that.
And then I ended up changing my mind because of part of a book that I read one time.
But had these influences been around, I too would have probably have sought
refuge in one of these trans identities in order to justify being gay so that
I could be straight because I had kind of hangups about that.

(19:20):
So I could be, oh, I'll just be a straight girl instead of a gay boy.
You know what I'm saying?
So, yeah, well, I think one thing that I didn't say earlier that I should have
said, I don't acknowledge how often sexual repression is part of this,
that this is a kind of repressed sexual awakening coming out in a kind of warped manner.

(19:41):
If you follow me, so that some of the boys are afraid of their sexual urges and they repress them.
Some of the girls are likewise afraid of their sexual urges.
And so it seemed to come out in their gender identity.
It's very interesting psychologically that there seems to be a connection between the two.

(20:02):
And when I think of my own puberty and like, you know, when I wanted to be a
boy, there was nothing sexual about it. I was a kid.
I was a very young kid. But isn't it interesting that it
was my puberty was my sexual awakening that
brought me out of it if you follow me it wasn't anything
else you know what i mean so there's some sort of connection
that i don't think we've quite figured out but when you

(20:22):
were asexual did you did you was there such thing as asexual at the time and
like was was it an identity people knew about yeah this would have been 2004
and i had at one point i came out as gay because my brother found i was chatting
with somebody and then told my mom.
And then, you know, I'm naturally kind of a religious kind of spiritually oriented

(20:46):
person, even though I did not grow up in a religious household.
So I had, you know, a lot of hangups about that. So I went back into the closet.
I said, oh, and then I just identified as asexual, which for me felt very angelic,
et cetera. This is like the better way to go.
And there was an organization, which I believe is still out there called AVEN,
A-V-E-N, the Asexual Visibility and Awareness Network.

(21:09):
And so that was all of my exposure to it other than just kind of claiming it
whenever I wanted to talk about it.
But I didn't do anything about it. I didn't actually know anybody else other
than what I would see online.
And then it was Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich.
I was reading one of the last chapters called sexual transmutation.

(21:33):
And so this was right at the tail end of that year that my mom had begged me
to wait. I said, I've been wanting to get castrated for years.
And it's like, what's one more year?
So every day through that year, I'd look up and I'd say,
Yep. Sewing a castrated. Yep. What age were you? I would have been 21.
Wow. I had. You were. And what happened then?

(21:53):
Yeah. Or maybe I was like, yeah, 1920. So I was just moved back from going to college.
And then, so then in that, it said, if, you know, you use your sexual energy
in the right way, that is your, your mojo, so to speak, to climb the corporate
ladder, to excel in sports. boards.
And I realized that it wasn't just my sexuality that I'd be cutting off,

(22:15):
but my capacity to thrive in the world.
Your life force. I think that's a really good point that the vitality and the
energy and the power that your sexual drive gives you is often underestimated.
And so when they block a puberty in a child, not only are they kind of putting
them into a childlike state and maintaining them into a childlike state.

(22:39):
But number one, their desire to fall in love is cut.
So you know what I mean? This idea that like, so when you're a child,
you're completely myself, just me, me, me. I want chocolate,
I want toys, I want you to play with me.
And then when you move into adolescence, you start to care about your social
kind of place and start to care about whether you start to have crushes and

(23:01):
start thinking about yourself within the social context.
Could he fall in love with me? I kind of like
him could he like me so you're starting to think yourself in
a social scenario that you wouldn't have
thought of as a child you didn't really care because it was
just about you and so that kind of awakening
of falling in love is a huge that's where all the poetry all the music all the

(23:22):
films no wonder adolescents are suddenly really into all that sort of stuff
because it's beginning the urge for a pair bond a mate for life and so that
is completely blocked which is a huge Huge psychological event.
That is shaping for most of us all our lives. And so it hadn't opened with you,
but if you follow me, this was so, so important.

(23:44):
But not only that, it's stopping the physical urges as well.
And so they're kind of basically alienating the children from their body.
And so their genitals don't grow, their breasts don't grow,
their body hair doesn't grow, and they are remaining suspended in a childlike
state when all their peers are having sexual awakenings, starting to have crushes,

(24:06):
starting to look at each other and check each other out in the social context.
It's a barbaric treatment. It's a very heavy handed, I think,
barbaric treatment that really shouldn't be taking place.
I'm really glad that the NHS and the UK have banned the use of puberty blockers
and lots of other countries around Europe have absolutely curtailed their use

(24:27):
and they're only giving them in the strictest of clinical trials because I don't
think they They should give them inclinical trials at all. I think this is a
really, really heavy handed.
It's like playing God with a child. And it's like the child hasn't yet matured enough like you.
There you are at 20 thinking you had yourself figured out. By 22,
we're going, hang on a second.
You know that lovely line, we contain multitudes. You know what I mean?

(24:49):
There's so much to us to think that some 10 year old or 12 year old can know
what they're going to be like as an adult.
It's arguably laughable, but it's shameful that any adult would listen to it. Yeah, absolutely.
We got the tail wagging the dog when we're talking about the kids running the
schools, the kids telling the parents how to parent them.
And, you know, it's the insane running the insane asylum, essentially.

(25:14):
Well, further than that, like we went from being child centered and child centered
care was, you know, you centered child in the treatment and all that to being child led.
Which is a completely different scenario where the child is leading the treatment,
the child is leading, you know, the educational program.
And it's a heavy burden to put on children's shoulders because they are dictating what to say.

(25:35):
And if you look at a child, I don't know if you have kids, but if you look at
a child in their birthday party, they turn into tyrants very fast,
like a bit of power and a kid. They can't take it because they're immature.
And of course they can't take it. They don't have the complexity to take too
much power and responsibility. And we adults shouldn't impose too much power
or responsibility on children.

(25:55):
We shouldn't tell our children about our mortgage problems or our marriage problems
because they need to be free to become adults without a kind of an adult sensibility
being imposed on them too early.
Yet child led care is imposing adult questions.
It's asking them complex scenarios before they're able to understand what they're talking about.

(26:18):
No kid, I was told, funny enough, I was told I was infertile when I was 25.
I had this condition called endometriosis.
I laughed, I didn't give a damn. I literally didn't give a damn.
Kids, the hell do I want kids? No interest.
By the time I was 32, I was like this breastfeeding earth
mother whose greatest achievement in life was
having a baby like i massively changed in

(26:41):
those few years and that's the human
for you yeah we have no clue what we're going to
become or feel like or look like you know
ever since i was a little kid i would always ask people who were you know
be eight what is it like to be 16 i'd be 16 what is it like to be 25 what's
it like to be 40 and now i've just turned 39 and i finally finally am able to

(27:02):
answer the question satisfactorily because I had to get here since nobody really
gave me the kind of answer I was looking for, you know, just,
you know, a little bit older and, you know, it's very generic and stuff,
but a lot, your mind is consolidated.
Your, your thinking is another mantle of maturity comes about that,
you know, synthesizes everything that you had been up until then.

(27:25):
And you can't really know what that feels like without collecting
all that and then going through that maturity it's like
going to a different planet you know what i mean when you try and
when you look at yourself getting older and older and like
you know i often think transition it's like going to another country or
another planet you don't actually know what it's going to be like until you
get there and you don't know if it's going to suit you until you get there and

(27:48):
when you get there you've gone because you've medically transitioned there's
no going back so it's it's a massive decision yeah it's so crazy that we're
even talking about this. It's just like, why are we talking about this?
Because it's actually happening, so we have to talk about it.
What do you think when it comes to, we have quite a spectrum going on.
We've got a hyper-sexualized culture.

(28:11):
We have the body shaming element. We have people who, you know,
hate their body or don't even agree with where they're at.
You know, when we talk about trans identified people.
And so there's all forms of dysphoria happening here. But they're going in every which way.
What do you think about that? I don't know what I think about it.
I think, you know, the sexual revolution that happened in the 60s,

(28:33):
you know, it seemed like it was great liberation and that we were all going to have this great sex.
And it was all going to be lovely, if you follow me. It was all going to be
lovely. That was the grand plan.
And we were going to, you know, have this free and easy attitude to sex because
the contraceptive pill and things like that. But that's not really what's happened.
You know what I mean? What's happened is huge, huge numbers of divorces.

(28:56):
It hasn't made better relationships.
It doesn't seem to have made happier families. It hasn't made more intact families.
And I don't think, from what I can gather from my reading, I don't think it's
made better sex lives. I'm not convinced people are having better sex than they've ever had before.
And when I look at the kind of the more degenerate aspect of our sexualized society,

(29:18):
I just think a lot of anybody who has an understanding of psychology would probably
agree with me that kink and BDSM and all that aspect of life,
it's very, it's very unconnected or disconnected with the mind body. You know what I mean?
If you want to hurt somebody while you're sexually active, or if you want to

(29:39):
get hurt while you're sexually active, anybody who has a psychological understanding
would say, yeah, could we talk about that?
That seems like maybe an issue. So it's a disconnect. And, you know,
when somebody, when that has been kind of.
Almost assimilated into a healthy sex life, I would argue, yeah,
that's not a healthy sex life.

(29:59):
You can have it, but it's not healthy. It's not healthy to want to hurt people.
It's also kind of disconnected with intimacy. There's a kind of a gap in our intimacy.
So there might be an awful lot of sex, but there's very little intimacy.
And I've noticed that a lot with the ROGD kids, they're the rapid onset gender
dysphoria kids that often present as trans when they're generally autistic, sometimes gay.

(30:23):
And those kids, they're very often not very developed in their social skills
or their ability to be intimate with other people.
And so it's kind of a gap in intimacy.
They're scared of intimacy. And I'd be straight with you if you were in front
of me when you were asexual, I would have been going straight for,
well, how are you with your intimacy, son?
Do you know what I mean? Because it's a fear of vulnerability,

(30:46):
because when you're intimate with somebody, you're revealing yourself and they're
revealing their self and they might reject your true self.
And it's an extraordinarily frightening moment.
And we do it in stages between 10 and 20 with, would you like to be my boyfriend or something?
It's slowly getting deeper into kind of revealing yourself and ultimately hopefully falling in love.

(31:08):
And I don't hear a lot of love.
And I know I might sound old fashioned, but there isn't half as much emphasis
on the beauty of falling in love, the gorgeousness of having a beautiful sex
life with somebody you love and the kind of the beauty of intimacy that's kind of been parked.
And instead, it's kind of very transactional. You make me come and I'll make

(31:29):
you come and then we'll go out and we'll look good while we're doing it. I don't know.
It's it's it's very transactional. It's very cold. And I think quite alienating.
We've certainly found out during COVID that like
an awful lot of these kind of pseudo-intimist experiences like having a coffee
over Zoom, but it just doesn't cut it.
Meeting me and you, if we were meeting for a coffee, it would be much more warm

(31:52):
than if we were having a coffee over Zoom.
The same as sex, this idea that you can have virtual sex and it's the same thing. It's rubbish.
You lose a lot without the connection. And that connection, it's very hard.
I'm not religious, but it's very hard to kind of describe it without thinking
there's something about two bodies,
something about falling in love there's something special that

(32:14):
seems to happen and we shouldn't underestimate
it because it's beautiful no you're absolutely
right love has been replaced by sex like you listen to the lyrics of music and
where they would say you know i want to you know do you in this way or that
i want to love you in this way or that so there's like this subversion of speech
happening so people are like you know and yeah by the way had you said to me when i was

(32:38):
going through that how's your intimacy i would have
said zilch i said i don't feel like it
i can't i won't you know i had
no i wasn't dating people growing up i
didn't get into really my first relationship till i was 25 years old so you
know maybe you're onto something there yeah it's a fear of vulnerability i think
there's something about vulnerability that makes people these days we like to

(33:02):
present like we're on it we're okay there's a lot of pressure on kids these
days yeah yeah there There is,
and I'll tell them how they should be.
And let me ask this.
When you're trying to convince a patient who is saying, hey,
the only way for me to be happy is I got to take the hormone blocker, the...

(33:23):
You know, the puberty blocker, hormone replacement therapy, or I got to get the surgeries,
how can you convince them that there is a healthier approach to the stage they're
going through than to just jump towards these irreversible types?
Yeah, you know, I'm a psychotherapist, and we don't tend to try to convince anybody anything.

(33:44):
It's not our job. Our job isn't to have an agenda for you. Imagine if you came
to me or somebody else came to me.
My job is not to have some sort of plan for you, because I don't know what it's like to be you.
What my job is to make sure that by coming to you that we have a kind of an
honest connection, you know what I mean, that there's honesty in the room and
that maybe awareness is built about.

(34:05):
So I might kind of have some kind of psychological insight that I could share
with you and say, I noticed when you do this, this often happens.
I noticed this pattern when you talked about your events and your life and things
like that. So I can bring some psychological insight.
The idea being that your self-awareness will lead you to choosing better decisions.
Not that I know how you should live. This is how you should do it.

(34:26):
It's almost like if somebody came to me and they told me that they should move
to Alaska and I think, why would you move to Alaska? Jesus. us.
But it's not my job. I don't know who they are. I don't know whether they should move to Alaska.
But my job is to make sure that they should explore the implications of moving
to Alaska so that they know what they're doing.

(34:46):
And so we wrote, myself and two other therapists, Sasha Ayad and Lisa Marchena,
we wrote a book called When Kids Say They're Trans.
And the idea is a pro-parent book, and it's explicitly for parents who want
to support their kid, who want to encourage their kid with compassion and gentleness
and love, and to make sure that they understand that there are other approaches.

(35:07):
You don't have to medicalize your identity. We have never medicalized identities.
In all the history of mankind, we've never medicalized identities.
And then suddenly, in the last kind of 20 years, identities have,
are becoming medicalized. We did medicalize the bodies. We did,
you know, people were transsexuals, but they weren't medicalizing their identity.

(35:28):
Now there's this new concept of an identity.
And it's interesting up until the kind of noughties, you know,
most people had quite a strong identity, basically their national identity or
their religious identity.
For example, I would have been Irish Catholic. My husband was Irish Protestant.
You probably were whatever American and there might've been a religion or non-religion,
but people were very kind of, most people,

(35:49):
not all people were very solid in their identities and that's
kind of gone it's almost considered fascist to talk about
your national identity and it's considered you
know we're kind of in a post-religious age so there's been a big kind of removal
of people's identity and then suddenly out of nowhere all these young people
are going on and on and on about their identity and you know when you look at

(36:12):
psychological development you'd realize that forming an identity is part of the task of you
know of teenagehoods i wrote a book called what
your teen is trying to tell you and i talked about there's different developmental
milestones when you're three you might be learning how to eat or tie your laces
or ride a bike or whatever when you're four or five and then when you're a teenager

(36:33):
you're learning different developmental milestones how to interact with peers
and to develop your identity who you are who am i that's a big huge question
of a teenager who am i and you You, for example,
from what you told me, you were trying on an identity.
Maybe I am asexual. That's going to be my identity. And I'm trying that for
a while. You know what I mean?

(36:53):
That's what people should be doing at that age. That's what they should be doing.
It's just the medicalization of that is the mad bit. Why would you medicalize
that? That's just a psychological exploration.
That's very profound and necessary. But don't be bringing drugs into it.
No, you're right. You can't go back from that. And I apologize because I did
make a very novice mistake when I said convince, because I know very well it's

(37:17):
not the job of therapist,
psychotherapist, counselor to convince, but to help a person find their own
answer. Okay. So thank you for that.
So I got a question. Jim, when we were talking a little bit about when you were
making that film, The Trans Kids, and you were talking about,
you know, being approached and having some people attacking your gear and stuff, calling you a Nazi.

(37:39):
This is very still very common right now.
We have a very angry trans population.
You know, we kind of tongue in cheek referred to it as trans violence,
because normally when you hear that term, you're like, oh, somebody's committing
violence on a trans person. But now we're seeing so many violent things coming from.

(37:59):
Community that it makes you wonder, particularly when it comes to kids who are
growing up around these influences and then they're taking on these identities
or going home being angry with their parents because they think they're suppressing them.
And then going through these stages and really raging against the machine,
it seems like there's a lot of anger coming out of that area in particular.

(38:23):
Is it warranted? Is there a cause to this? Is it just pure frustration?
What's your your take on that? Yeah, that's a big story. There's a couple of
things I would raise to answer that.
One thing I've really learned from
my years of work in this field is that testosterone is a mighty beast.

(38:43):
And when girls receive, some of them are receiving high levels of testosterone
when they're medicalizing, they are not growing up as male.
So they're not learning the lessons that a a lot of boys are learning as adolescents,
which is you're getting strong and there are certain rules of society you need
to learn, usually by older males that are giving them to them,

(39:05):
whether it's an older brother or an uncle or a father.
But the idea is that men teach younger males, watch it.
Testosterone can drive you to do crazy things and you could hit somebody and
you could end up in jail. You know what I mean?
Testosterone has impulsive and incredibly aggressive, frankly, parts of it.
So that's one thing that I think is underestimated when we're talking about the trans population.

(39:30):
Another thing that's very definitely underestimated is the concept of autogynephilia,
which is a paraphilia, and it's male's erotic fixation on themselves as a woman.
So there's lots of different paraphilias in life. For example,
exhibitionism or peeping toms, you know, that's voyeurism.
And there's, you know, there's various different pedophilia is obviously another paraphilia.

(39:53):
And it's a compulsive disorder.
And autogynephilia is a compulsive disorder that some men have.
And very often, it seems to co-occur with narcissism and aggression.
And so you might be speaking about a narcissistic, aggressive autogynephile,
or you might be speaking about something completely different,
which is a girl who has medicalized and has got testosterone driving them or deranged.

(40:18):
And these are two very, very different people, but the impact can be aggression.
So there is lots of reasons for this, but it's very suppressed field.
So it's very difficult to talk about.
Well, thanks for exploring that. That was helpful.
So Drag Queen Story Hour, let me ask you, which one with a man dressing as a

(40:40):
fabulous sexual clown sitting down to read a nice book about
you know cultural issues or whatever you know the sex of you know the two gay
penguins or whatever to a group of kids where can you go wrong with that yeah everywhere.
You know, as you said earlier on, exposing your child to sexual content is child abuse.
So for fundamentally exposing your child to a sexualized person is not appropriate.

(41:05):
We don't kind of do kind of sexy things in front of our children for a reason
because it's not appropriate because they're not yet sexualized and it's very icky.
And that's quite apart from the fact if it's incest in safaris,
you wouldn't expose your child to it. Now, back in the, you know,

(41:26):
in the cave days and back in the day, yes, certainly parents were having sex,
but they were having sex quietly.
You know what I mean? It wasn't a kind of an orgy in front of the children.
And so there's a kind of an understanding that adults have had for many,
many, many years that we don't expose children to sexual content.
And that is flouting that and it's a real issue. you.

(41:49):
Secondly, it's kind of breaking down kind of commonly accepted boundaries that we have put up.
And so it's almost like arguing, is water wet?
And we say, yeah, we know water is wet. And somebody says, well,
how do you know water is wet? So when somebody says, well, how do you know you
shouldn't expose children to sexual content?
It's like, well, we know that because this is not a problem.
But we also know if you talk to children who've been exposed to sexual content,

(42:12):
they don't like it. It's kind of icky.
But children love their parents. And if their parents are
smiling along long and saying this is great children will
do what their parents lead them to do and so
that can be that that's how an awful lot of parents they can
lead their children into child sex abuse and they can lead them to the children
into being groomed in different contexts nothing to do with drag queen story

(42:34):
error but the thing about drag queen story error is it's profoundly inappropriate
because it's a sexual aspect but it's also profoundly inappropriate because
it's so So regressive, because,
you know, a man dressing up as a highly sexualized woman is a very regressive scenario.
And if they wanted to be kind of liberal and diverse, arguably what they should

(42:56):
have is out of work actors.
Acting the part of great literature because stories for children
is a brilliant amazing part of
literature children's literature is that's absolutely phenomenal and so we could
have you know ordinary middle-aged lesbians if you really wanted to have role
models you could have you know to mean older gay males or bisexual younger males

(43:19):
younger older middle-aged whatever if you
wanted to bring that in as a role model because people do need role models in life.
But key point, they should not be bringing what they do in bed into the story.
The story should be the story.
That's the big deal. And when you're a child, and I used to read obviously stories

(43:40):
to my kids, and it's all about the story.
It's not about some guy jumping around in kind of a bra and knickers.
It's missing the entire point. It's completely narcissistic.
But one One thing about Drag Queen Story Hour, people often don't believe that
it's happening. They think it's just one of those lines.
And my brother used to watch me on Twitter and he used to think I was a bit mad.

(44:00):
Like, you know, she really got into this and you're kind of losing it there still.
And then he said one day, he works as a librarian, one day Drag Queen Story
Hour came in as a kind of a booking.
And he's like, it's real. It actually exists.
It's in Ireland. And he didn't really believe of its existence until he working

(44:21):
as a librarian and it came in on his inbox.
And then he realized it's a real thing. It really is so profoundly shocking.
People don't believe it's happening. Now you preach that all day.
I mean, I'm talking to people constantly who are just not paying attention or
maybe they're not seeing the influences right now and they completely deny it's a thing.

(44:41):
And then little by little, they see influences. Somehow it's come into their school.
We've got a furry in the class or now there's some sort of, you know,
a trans policy or whatever.
And then they wake up and it's too late by then, of course.
I think, you know, one of the big things that we're concerned about with the
LGBTQIA plus movement is within that plus we have the the maps.

(45:07):
We have the minor attracted people and that's more and more kind of sliding
in into the public discourse, trying to normalize itself.
And we need to be aware that this is like being played into the same hand as
the whole gay, lesbian, trans thing, and that this is my identity.

(45:27):
And, you know, I am, you know, I may be 60 years old on the outside,
but I'm an eight-year-old little girl on the inside. And then let's mix that
with the fact that now it's, you know, we're seeing people kind of justifying that as a sexuality.
Where do you as a psychotherapist stand as far as that mentality and behavior?

(45:47):
I think we as a society, we've never figured out what to do with the fact that men mostly,
not always, but men mostly, some of them have rogue kind of sexual drive and
it is very, very damaging on everybody else. and we need to figure out.

(46:10):
We've kind of, you know, the rate
of kind of, you know, re-offending among paedophiles is just sky high.
They've gone underground. They found each other online.
They've created a movement that I don't trust.
I don't know what's going down with this because they're very good at being
secretive. But paedophiles haven't gone away. Paedophiles have gone online.

(46:32):
And now they're, not long after that, that they created an identity,
which is MAP, you know, the Minor Attracted People.
And when you look at the length a paedophile will go to to access information,
children, you'll realize how they will play the long game.
So for example, I come from Ireland and there are a number of pedophiles who

(46:54):
entered the priesthood in Catholic Ireland to get at children.
And it wasn't because they had a calling, it was because they knew if you play
the long game, if you do seven years in a seminary, and if you come out,
you will one day get a free access to children.
And so it was a very long game. The same with swimming coaches,
gym coaches, which is there's an awful lot of adults,
males generally, who will play a very, very long game so as to get access to

(47:21):
their paraphilia, to their sexual dysfunction.
What to do about that? I still don't know how we should handle this.
Obviously, we need to catch them. But the problem is they've done damage by
the time they've caught them, if you follow me.
So how do we get them before that? How do we kind of do it before we catch them,

(47:42):
before they've caught, before they've kind of caused damage?
I don't know. I think we're in the baby steps. We're the equivalent of putting
leeches on skin in our understanding of how to handle paraphilias.
And I think it is something that requires massive levels of talk.
But because adults don't like it and it makes them feel icky, they try to suppress it.

(48:02):
So people try to stop us talking about it rather than think we should talk about
this a lot. Yeah, the silence, you know, you say silence is violence.
But it's working as a tacit agreement for these organizations who are pushing
it forward because no one's pushing back.
You know, so it's like, you know, society's, you know, coming around to see
it from my angle or whatever the thing is.

(48:23):
And, you know, and then now we have, I think, in Tennessee here,
they've got a law that I think is being passed or something like that where,
you know, with a death penalty for violence.
For pedophiles, essentially. So it's gone, you know, I don't want people to be killed.
But at the same time, you know, when it comes to stuff like this,

(48:43):
like nothing stirs up the most base,
you know, feelings of anger than to be looking at a person who just,
you know, got done raping a child or at any age, you know, thinking we were
a child that could have been me when I was the most vulnerable and,
you know, how traumatizing that is.
And yet there's people out there They're advocating, you know,

(49:05):
for their rights to do this.
So it's a very great thing. And not only that, they use something that pedophiles
have always used, which I don't think is highlighted enough.
Pedophiles have kind of gained access to children very often by being a little
bit pathetic and a little bit, as they call it in Ireland, harmless.
He's harmless. Like, you know what I mean? He's a bit pathetic.
And so they kind of, they adopt that pathetic persona to get people to kind

(49:30):
of lower their boundaries.
You know what I mean? oh he's been a bit awkward and I wish he'd leave the
dressing room but he hasn't left and I'm too awkward to
ask him to leave and now he's still here
if you follow me the beat of violence I've often used that
as a way to get people to lower their
boundaries and I think that is often used

(49:51):
in this kind of map identity that they're they
kind of they they put on this pathetic kind
of poor me seeking sympathy and
people look oh would you look at the state of him look at him poor guy he
doesn't really know what to do and he was given this kind
of awful kind of urge we should really feel
sorry for him and i'm like yeah they've always used that they've always

(50:13):
used that so we have to be really careful about that because i i know it's something
that when we feel sorry for people we we do things that we wouldn't usually
do so it's something i think that just i just occurred to me that i don't think
is is used enough as a point now that's it's very Very insightful, actually.
And that kind of brings me to the next question about boys and girls sports,

(50:36):
boys and girls locker rooms.
I spoke at our Senate hearing here in Arizona in support of stopping that kind
of thing, which our governor vetoed because she thinks it's cool for boys to
go into girls' locker rooms and all of this because she's really weird.
But that's where sexual assault and things can happen. It's not even just,

(50:59):
I think that, oh, okay, they're there and that's awkward enough.
Like, okay, now they're flinging their genitals around. But it's like this opens
up some of these kinky types to finding an in an opportunity to doing something very bad.
And the statistics are in on that. The research shows that the rates of sexual
assault happen on a much higher level,

(51:19):
much higher level in mixed dressing rooms and mixed kind of changing rooms that
it does in single sex. So we know this.
We know that this makes it more dangerous. And yet we're doing it.
This whole boys in female sports, it's incredibly unfair.
And I particularly want to urge the men, the fathers, to say, you know it's not fair.

(51:43):
If you've got a daughter, you know it's not fair. And when you start to educate
yourself about testosterone, you realize little boys, they get testosterone
in the womb, they get testosterone when they're three, they get testosterone
later when they're about eight or nine, and then they get the full testosterone
hit when they're about 13.
So there are different stages when they get this hit of testosterone.
Testosterone makes you stronger, faster, bigger, more stamina,

(52:05):
more reach, more so many different things.
It's incredibly unfair that girls who fought so hard to get a space in sports,
you know, like to get a kind of women's tennis and women's swimming and women's running.
And we all know that picture of the girl, the woman who was doing the Boston
Marathon and she was being pushed out of the way by these men.

(52:26):
She was the first woman who ever ran a marathon. And, you know,
she had to secretly run a marathon. And it wasn't kind of the 60s or 50s,
as far as I remember. Well, not long ago.
So we fought so hard to get our place in sports and for boys to take scholarships
away from girls. It's profoundly unfair.
It's nothing to do with whether somebody needs some help because they have lost

(52:50):
their sense of identity and they need a bit of help. It's nothing to do with
that. This is unfairness.
Sports is about fairness. It's about categories.
It's about age categories, weight categories, sex categories.
All the categories happen in sports. that's what sports is
about getting into the right category and see who can do the best at
that category and i think i i can't believe

(53:12):
it's happened and i can't believe we're standing by and
allowing it to happen yeah it's you know luckily there's
a lot of people pushing back but there's also a lot of people like you know
gay rights and stuff a lot of you know people online are upset with the lgbqia
plus community and they're saying look separate the lgb from the tqia Now,

(53:35):
when it comes to, you know, kids in particular who are being heavily influenced
by the LGBTQIA propaganda,
which is coming into the schools, you know, the whole trans thing,
especially on the heels of the gay thing, which neither should be a focus within
an educational facility.
So that should be a conversation for parents in a certain setting.

(53:58):
You know, teachers aren't therapists.
This is not, you know, not a place for sexual stuff.
But they're using the gay rights thing as like a Trojan horse for the whole
trans thing, which is based in the mental illnesses of gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia.
So it's spreading as social contagion online.
They're influencing kids at school all in the name of gay rights. it's gay plus PQIA plus.

(54:24):
What do you think about that? I think it's very clever. I think it's very strategic, very purposeful.
When you start studying it, and I have studied it, I'm doing a PhD in this subject,
and you realize that like in the 1970s, there were, you know,
the gay rights movement were leading with born this way.
And it was a great slogan, they were born this way.
And then, you know, 30 years later, the trans community led with a slogan which

(54:48):
is born in the wrong body. So it was very similar, but it was actually slightly different.
I think I remember when the T was added to the LGB in the 90s,
when I was in my 20s. And I remember because I'd had my own experiences as a kid, I remember...
Did I leave there? I don't know if I left there. Yeah, I remember as a kid,

(55:08):
I'd had my own experiences. And when they added the T, I was like,
why are they doing that? That's a completely different experience.
Being gay is who you're attracted to. That's other people.
Trans is your relationship with yourself. That's the kind of changing your body.
It's medicalizing your body. It's a completely different thing to do.
And I remember getting nothing out of people. They didn't know what I was talking
about. They're like, really?
Why have you got a problem with that? And I remember thinking,

(55:29):
that's so strange that they don't see that these are two very different experiences.
I do think that this was very strategic.
I think that it was done for a reason and it was done on the goodwill.
Everybody is kind of, they've learned, psychology didn't cover itself in glory
around conversion therapy for gay people.
Gay people had a really horrible history. history and so

(55:51):
the trans movement have kind of just kind of glommed on
to the to the gay rights movement saying yeah
we're the same as them you've got to treat us the same way and it's like no
no no no no no no there is no millennia of people who medicalize their bodies
that that doesn't exist there there isn't yes it was often gender non-conforming
people and they might have wore men's clothes or female clothes or whatever

(56:15):
you know what i mean so what there's nothing to do what you're talking about,
which is a kind of extreme medicalization of bodies from the age of 11 onwards.
So yeah, I think it's a very dubious combination.
I think we should talk about the LGB community, and we should talk about the
TQIA community, and we should stop talking about the two.

(56:35):
We should kind of differentiate between the two.
One is about identities, the other is about sexual orientation,
and we should be much more clear in the differences between those.
Putting them together just confuses everybody into thinking it's
some form of gay i think the most common misconception of
trans issues by far is people think it's kind of being kind of like being gay

(56:57):
but it's just kind of the 21st century version of it i think no it's not it's
not at all like that right exactly it's so hard to get disconnected from that
having like no sense of connection with it and yet being pulled into that community.
I've got one last question, and it kind of folds right into that.
I see it kind of as a slander of sorts when we say, well, the gay kids need,

(57:21):
you know, gay cartoon pornography in school, or the gay kids need these,
you know, books which have,
you know, here's how to put a butt plug in, here's how to get on Grindr,
all these things, you know, things that maybe maybe certain adults, not even all adults.
Like I've never used a butt plug. I.

(57:41):
Don't see why it's necessary to teach a kid, they can get through their life with that one.
But they're saying like that is the reason that it's in schools is because they're
saying that gays need it.
How far removed is that from, you know, civil rights or fair treatment?
You know, this raises a really important question. And what are schools for?

(58:01):
Are schools for creating a scenario where people have great sex lives and great
love lives? Or are they for education.
Because my understanding of schools, the idea was we were going to educate people,
educate children so that they become the adults that they wanted to be.
Kind of treating them as people for whom we can teach them what sort of sex

(58:24):
life they can have and what sort of love life they can have.
It feels like it's overstepping.
I think I feel sorry for schools in general. I go into a lot of schools and
I give a lot of talks and I often feel sorry for them because the teachers are
asked to be counsellors, they're asked to be psychologists, they're asked to
be kind of clowns, entertainers and teachers.
But actually, they just want to teach geography because they love geography.

(58:46):
They think it's very important.
And so I think we need to renegotiate what schools are actually for.
I don't think schools should be shaping our identities.
I don't think they should be shaping our sex lives or our attitude to love.
I think that should be free for the individual.
And if if somebody wants to kind of further develop their understanding on their

(59:06):
sex life or their or their love life or whatever, and they're,
you know, they're adolescent, whatever they can, they can go and seek it out.
Information is incredibly accessible these days.
Finding information about a butt plug is three seconds away.
So if they want to find it, they'll find it. But we don't need schools to overstep

(59:27):
and suddenly become all things for children.
Schools, I think, should be just teaching subjects and letting the individual
figure out what else they want to learn after school in their own time.
Absolutely. Well, this was a fascinating conversation, Stella.
I appreciate all of your insight, which your unique background is able to bring us.

(59:49):
You're the author of Cottonwool Kids, Bullyproof, Fragile, What Your Teen Is
Trying to Tell You, and When Kids Say They're Trans.
When Kids Say They're Trans. Is that the newest one?
Yeah. Yeah. And also I have a podcast, which, as you can see,
I talk a lot about gender.
I've got a podcast with Sasha Ayad, Gender, Wider Lens, where we've got hundreds

(01:00:12):
of episodes about gender.
Well, cool. Cool. Would you share the name of that? And then anywhere else people
can reach you, your social media handles, et cetera?
Absolutely. Yeah. So Stella O'Malley, you'll find me easily on Twitter, Instagram, whatever.
And Gender Wider Lens, we're on YouTube, and Genspect is on YouTube,
and Genspect is easily found.

(01:00:33):
You'll find any of them, Genspect, Gender Wider Lens, Stella O'Malley,
you'll find them easily.
Fabulous. Well, thank you so much for your time, Stella.
This is Robert Wallace with Gaze Against Rumors. If you want to follow us,
of course, you probably already are on X.
You just look up Gaze Against Rumors, follow us there.
And if you have any questions, comments about the show, or you want to suggest

(01:00:58):
a guest, just email podcast at gazeagainstrumors.com and visit gazeagainstrumors.com
if you want to join a chapter, start a chapter, etc.
Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Stella. We will talk to everybody next week.