April 9, 2024 • 36 mins
In this conversation, Chris Baron chats with Jennifer about the power of children's literature in shaping readers' hearts and helping them navigate tough situations. Chris shares his own experiences as a reader, giving a shoutout to his 3rd grade teacher, and how books became a stable presence in his life. They also discuss the influence of comics on both their readers' hearts. Chris shares the inspiration behind his book The Gray and its themes of mental health, self-acceptance, and the role of technology. Chris talks about the importance of empathy and storytelling in connecting with young readers. He also shares his upcoming projects, including an anthology of passover stories for middle grade readers.
Show notes and other information related to this episode (including a discount code from Bookelicious) can be found here.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Roles as a Reader and Writer
04:23 The Power of Children's Literature
11:36 Discussion of The Gray
23:00 Themes in Chris Baron's Books
31:43 Upcoming Projects
34:32 Conclusion and Gratitude
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
As a reader,
I loved comics,
like comic books really had a profound effect on me.
Um And so Missus Goldberg actually allowed me to read comic books when almost everyone else in my life wouldn't,
they wouldn't,
you know,
they didn't want to accept that the Avengers or Spiderman comics were viable because she said,
(00:21):
if you promise me,
you'll also read other books.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to the Reader's Heart,
a podcast of conversations with authors and illustrators about children's literature as a vehicle for empathy and joy in a dark world.
(00:46):
The reader's heart is rooted in the belief that our world needs the magic of children's literature.
Now,
more than ever.
So let's get started this week.
My guest is Chris Barron Chris's latest book,
The Gray,
which is a personal favorite was also a project lit selection for the 2023 24 school year.
Chris is also the author of other great middle grade books,
(01:08):
including All of Me and The Magical Imperfect.
And he's the editor of a new anthology for middle grade readers called on all other nights,
a middle grade passover anthology.
Chris is a poet,
a professor and an all around nice guy.
And even though this was only our first time chatting,
(01:28):
I felt like we were instant friends and like I could chat with him for hours.
I really hope that you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
And as always,
don't forget to stick around until the end of the episode.
For more information,
including a discount code from our friends at Book Alicious.
Hi,
Chris.
Thank you so so much for joining me today.
(01:50):
I'm so excited to chat with you.
Yeah,
I'm so happy to be here.
Yay.
I,
I feel like we've been planning this for a little while and it's finally coming to fruition.
I'm so delighted for those folks who are listening to hear our conversation about your books and about children's literature more generally.
(02:10):
Um because I know that you wear multiple hats when it comes to writing both a teacher and an author.
Plus you have kids.
I'm sure you read too.
Lots of different roles as a reader and a writer.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I mean,
I,
I there are so many roles just hearing you say it reminds me of,
you know,
just time spent with my own kids and years with my students and now I'm meeting so many young readers and yeah.
(02:38):
Well,
let's start then with one role,
we'll start with one.
I always begin these interviews with sort of the same question listeners will recognize they know already what I'm about to ask you.
But I'm really fascinated by the way that children's literature in particular can help inform who we become as an adult.
I mean,
(02:58):
we're all always growing and changing and evolving.
But I love the way children's literature or can shape our heart how these books just feel particularly potent in terms of informing who we are.
So with that in mind,
I love to start by talking about your reader's heart,
you know,
like who you are as a reader.
(03:19):
And that might be you might approach that from like the books you loved as a kid or when you first started reading,
you know,
that kind of thing or you could just talk about who you are as a reader now,
whatever feels right to you.
I love this question because it really is making me think about like,
what is my reader's heart?
And it's so I feel like different now because it's more reflective,
(03:40):
but also the same as when I was growing up.
So like I was thinking back to Missus Goldberg's class,
my third grade classroom first.
It's like when I thought of the,
I think of the question,
I think that's where I,
where I start.
And she had this book report charts and you got like a little green slip for the first four books.
And if you got a like 1/5 book,
(04:01):
it would be like a blue slip.
That was a little bigger and it would have like a stamp that you got to pick and you would stamp that blue.
I know it's amazing.
Like,
you know,
you got to,
you put the blue stamp and I think I had like an octopus and then the further you went and I remember that as a reader,
I loved comics,
like comic books really had a profound effect on me.
(04:24):
Um And so Missus Goldberg actually allowed me to read comic books when almost everyone else in my life wouldn't,
they wouldn't,
you know,
they didn't want to accept that the Avengers or Spiderman comics were viable because she said,
if you promise me,
you'll also read other books and,
you know,
to a third grader,
I didn't just say,
(04:44):
OK,
and just blow it off.
I really took it to heart.
And so I would stare then at the rack of the paperbacks in the classroom and there was like the Phantom toll booth,
you know,
and then one day I picked it up and I was like,
this is really good.
And,
and then of course,
I read Lion,
the Witch and the Wardrobe,
the bar afloat,
like these books that were just all in front of me.
(05:06):
And I,
I kind of fell in love with these stories and so combine that with,
with kind of a rough life at home.
Um Lots of things going on with parents and a lot of instability and stuff like that.
And so books became such like a stable thing for me.
And just one thing that pops in my head thinking about this is in the line in which in the wardrobe,
(05:29):
for example,
you know,
reading about Edmund who and I,
not that I'm spoiling this most classic book,
but you know,
Edmund does some bad,
he betrays his whole family and then he's like forgiven and like he's rescued and forgiven and I thought like,
even bad kids,
you know,
kids are totally important.
(05:49):
Not that I was such a bad kid,
but I was just thinking about the things going on in my life.
And so my reader's heart kind of rests in this place where like books become truth for kids and,
and that book.
And,
you know,
so all the way from,
from an accepting teacher who let me read comics because I was so moved by virtue and kind of profound nature of comic.
And then getting into starting to read more books,
(06:10):
I really found like escape in truth.
And that's my reader's heart and it,
I think it extends to now too.
I have so much to say about that.
I feel like we could just,
this whole podcast could just be about your response to this one question and so much to say,
um first,
you know,
we don't know,
this is our first time meeting.
So we're sharing these things as new acquaintances to one another.
(06:33):
But I was a big reader of comics as a kid too.
Um,
I know.
Right.
Um,
but although I think probably a little different genre to you,
I grew up again,
like,
we have some things in common,
really unstable home life.
Very,
very poor.
I've shared this before publicly so this isn't a bombshell or anything.
But,
uh,
the few books I did have as a kid were used as kindling in our wood stove when winter we lost power.
(06:59):
So for a long time,
I was,
I didn't want new books.
Like I was afraid to have,
like,
I was afraid that of losing them again.
I think,
like,
as an adult,
I can,
I can recognize that.
But as a kid,
I just didn't want them to be replaced.
But what I did have were like several,
a half dozen or so copies of Mad magazine that I read over and over and over and over again.
(07:26):
I can see the recognition on your face.
Right.
Oh,
I love Man Magazine.
Yeah.
Oh,
yes.
And I'm so grateful to teachers,
like the ones that you mentioned,
who allowed me to read those because I think that messaging is what lets us know that we're readers.
Like,
when,
as a teacher,
if we tell a kid that their reading choice is not real reading.
(07:48):
What we're telling them is they're not a real reader.
Whereas the opposite is true.
Right.
Totally.
I mean,
I,
I think she could have made some other binary decision.
Like,
nope.
And yes.
But instead she,
she just,
maybe I'm romanticizing a little bit because it's all the way back in third grade.
But all I remember is compassion and understanding and,
like,
actually not even just allowing me to read comics but enthusiastically re letting me read it and then asking me about them,
(08:16):
you know,
and that,
and it led to whatever,
maybe she had a grand design or not,
but it led me into reading other books,
you know.
Exactly.
I,
I think when you,
there's no stamina,
right?
Like there's no reading stamina,
there's no reading accomplishment without motivation.
You,
motivation fuels those other things.
(08:36):
So,
it sounds like your teacher knew what all great teachers know is that they have to motivate you to do these things if you're going to do the work when it gets hard.
Totally.
I mean,
look,
I wanted the candy that came with the number of slips on the book report chart.
But I also,
you know,
I'm like,
I have to do this.
It's my homework and I found,
I found reading,
you know,
so I love that.
(08:58):
I love that so much.
One of my elementary school teachers you talking about it reminded me she had a caterpillar that she made,
that circled the whole room with little like circles made of construction paper and every book you read,
you got to add ac it wasn't the exact same thing but the competition to be the person whose book took you around the corner or led you to this other part of the room or whatever the competition for that was real.
(09:25):
I mean,
we were,
it was intense.
Oh,
my gosh,
I can imagine.
Yes,
I love it.
I love it.
But more seriously that said it's not surprising to me at all to learn that,
you know,
your reader's heart is also really in tune with thinking about how books help kids uh see themselves in the world and navigate tough situations.
(09:54):
I loved what you said about how even bad kids and I'm putting bad kids in quotes in air quotes here are important and necessary because one of the things that kids books does,
what they do is they teach us that we all make mistakes and what's really matters is what we do after that.
Right.
Right.
We're not defined by the thing and I think your books in particular do such a great job of helping kids recognize that they're not defined by one thing in their lives.
(10:25):
No,
I would just say that that's actually one thing about books that I absolutely love because I,
you know,
I like short funny videos and I like poignant.
Obviously,
I'm a poet.
I like things to,
to,
to move fast and powerfully.
But the thing is about a book or collection of poems is is it's like an exploration over time.
So just to use the bad kid example which is,
(10:47):
again,
we're air quoting all over the place with saying bad kid.
But,
you know,
a troubled person gets into trouble does wrong things,
but there's like time and space to let it unfold so that there's like a sense of initiation redemption rites of passage.
What they've done fits into a larger part of the story and it,
we get to read it play out.
(11:08):
So it just feels so much more real.
That's just what I love about books.
And I,
and I see that on my own writing too.
Like I,
I love having the space to allow characters to deal with the real stuff that goes on in their lives and not have to be polished about it.
They can actually go through it if that makes sense.
Yeah,
because as a kid,
(11:28):
when you're in that moment,
when,
like,
you know,
all your devices are being taken away and you're forced to go upstate New York and hang out with your aunt.
Of course,
I'm thinking about the gray,
but,
you know,
you're in that moment where something for you that feels catastrophic is happening.
Not only does it feel like no one else has ever gone through what you're going through that you're the only person who's ever dealt with this,
(11:50):
but that it will never end that.
This moment is the defining moment of your life and books give you an opportunity to see.
I,
I don't know,
like a way out,
you know,
a guide to navigate all that.
I love that.
Yeah,
a way out a way through.
Um,
absolutely.
Because I,
I think,
you know,
for me it's always been books that have helped me see through the hardest times.
(12:14):
Um,
and that's why I'll just say,
you know,
really quick here that I am a huge re reader of books.
Like,
because,
and,
and some of my friends,
like,
you know what's gonna happen.
I'm like,
that's exactly why I read them again because I had to find comfort in seeing the struggle and I learn new things every time.
So,
yeah,
that's right.
And as an author too,
I mean,
you know,
(12:34):
that sometimes every word was a struggle to get on that page and was chosen.
So as in the rereading process,
you get to appreciate other aspects of it.
Maybe that you didn't see the first time.
Absolutely.
Well,
let's talk a little bit about the gray.
Um,
since I sort of alluded to it earlier and it's your most recent book for the,
(12:56):
you know,
those people who are listening who may not have read it first,
you know,
press pause and go correct.
That,
that's the first thing.
But then when you come back,
um,
do you,
uh could you mind giving us a little book talk for those readers who haven't have come across it yet?
Yeah.
Basically the gray is a story of a kid named Sasha who,
(13:19):
um,
is a very sensitive kid and he,
he lives in New York City uh with his mom and dad.
And he really struggles with anxiety for all kinds of reasons and some,
somewhat of his extra sensitivity,
his ability to kind of feel the world around him.
Um and you know,
in a way it was a gift but it kind of got corrupted by the world around him and the anxiety builds and builds and it gets so bad that eventually starts to call it the gray.
(13:47):
And so he has to face the gray and things just get worse and worse.
And the things that used to bring him comfort,
like video games or devices or ipad,
use that kind of stuff like to start to exacerbate it and bad things start to happen to him with his friends and eventually his family gets together with their therapist and they decide,
(14:07):
ok,
what,
what Sasha needs is a break.
And so he,
he moves for the summer,
basically up to the upstate New York with his Aunt Ruthie and has to kind of give up all the things that he thought made him whole and kind of reset his life and learn to find his way again with this,
with this wonderful elder and he doesn't want to be there.
(14:29):
But he starts to,
he discovers all kinds of adventures,
makes new friends,
um discovers riding horses and his aunt and uncle owned a Jewish,
you know,
sleep sleep away camp,
which is now abandoned.
And he gets to explore that and to kind of discover again who he is and who he might be in the future.
One of the things I love about the gray is the way that Sasha finds his way through that is number one,
(14:56):
there's multiple ways and it's very nuanced all the things that you mentioned.
And also he has a caring doctor who and he utilizes therapy tools to help him through his mental health journey.
And I feel like that's so important right now for kids to see that everyone struggles with things and that not only is it important to ask for help,
(15:25):
but there are tools that are sometimes stigmatized,
you know,
uh it therapy is still,
there's still a stigma around therapy in this country and books like the gray that show a character using those tools just feels really important to me right now.
And I,
I mean,
I have to believe that was a conscious decision on your part.
Percent.
No,
it's interesting,
(15:45):
I one of the things about,
about the,
the anxiety and kind of the panic,
it's something that I deal with.
And you know,
I've been able to really,
and it's something that came on.
It was there early in life,
but then has grown more in,
in,
in later life.
And then I see it so much in my students kind of post pandemic years even though I know it's still stuff is still with us.
You know,
(16:06):
a lot of kids dealing with anxiety.
And so a big part of this book was making sure I did the research and the understanding of these tools because I do want young readers to have the tools.
So,
you know,
as an example,
like Sasha uses a lot of box breathing on a day to day basis all the time and I use that all the time.
(16:27):
I do it with my classes.
I do it with my own kids.
It's a great way to sort of take a moment even when the gray was launched.
Uh I was at my book launch and it was,
you know,
I was there and there were like over 100 people and I was so nervous.
So I had everyone I said,
OK,
we're all going to do box breathing right now to help us get through this.
And then I was fine,
you know,
like,
um but I,
but I do think it's important that to,
(16:49):
to show that here's a kid on an adventure,
dealing with life and he,
when he,
when things happen to him,
he has tools to use um and a whole range of tools that he may or may not agree with but starts to use them and see how they work for him.
So super important.
And you know,
I was a public school educator for 20 years in some one capacity or another.
(17:12):
And so I I it's hard for me not to read books like this through that lens as well.
And I just kept thinking about as a teacher.
Gosh,
this book would be,
would have been really helpful to me in the classroom in terms of thinking about some strategies that I might be able to employ with kids when I could see that they were struggling and model for my myself using as well,
(17:37):
like you said,
with the box breathing and some of the other strategies I know that educators aren't your primary audience.
But I found for me that was a particularly helpful thing.
No,
I appreciate that.
And I certainly like,
wasn't thinking,
I,
I wasn't thinking of that in particular.
I mean,
I'm always thinking of that as a parent as an educator,
like what,
(17:58):
what information can a book give as I'm focusing on heart and empathy and story because it's always story first as a writer.
But I feel like,
you know,
kids are dealing with so much and this is one thing I'm learning as I talk to more and more young readers,
you know,
like visiting schools and stuff.
Um they're dealing with so much and books give them like the language right to,
(18:19):
to understand what they're even dealing with.
And so I do think it's helpful when books provide like tools like that,
you know.
So it's something that I think is integral to the story because I want it to be really practical as well.
I love that.
One of the other things I really love too.
I was thinking about as you were talking is the way that you weave technology into the story as not a part of the problem.
(18:45):
And I'm putting that in quotes again,
in quotes again.
Um But as a part of our lives that we have to constantly evaluate in terms of whether or not they are helping or hindering us in that moment.
So like Sasha sees all of his devices being taken away as a punishment.
And as you know,
(19:06):
the worst thing that could possibly ever happen to him.
But I think over time,
he begins to recognize what the adults in his life are trying to do,
which is just to say these things aren't bad.
It's just right now in this moment,
they aren't helping you.
So we need to remove them and figure out how to add them back in a way that's healthy for you.
(19:27):
I love that.
Yeah,
that's exactly true.
And for him,
you know,
there's this guttural response to the realization of that,
you know,
like realizing that,
you know,
he feel like it's not a punishment.
He knows it's right.
But he,
he's like dealing with it's not withdrawal,
it's just,
it's such an integral part of his life.
What does it mean for it to be taken away?
(19:47):
And then when he starts to see himself again or differently or reset,
it's really,
it's much more powerful for him in our world today,
especially for kids.
I think there's messaging out there that makes it seem like,
you know,
if you're not connected all of the time,
then somehow you're not living your fullest life and if you don't post about something that happened,
(20:09):
then it's not really real.
And that,
you know,
everyone's social media feed which looks perfect and flawless and face tuned and all of that um is somehow representative of these like perfect lives that you don't have in today's world for today's kids that just feels like such an important lesson for them to,
(20:33):
to develop the habit of just evaluating the good or not good that these tools are serving in their lives right now.
Yeah,
I totally agree with you.
I mean,
it's a huge mental health issue that we're sort of not equipped to know what to do even as a,
I'm thinking as a parent,
like I talk to my kids a lot about their use of technology,
(20:53):
social media,
what are they relying on?
You know.
So it's a big deal and,
and I certainly think the gray doesn't offer all the answers to those questions as much as just the story of one kid who has some mental health issues that he is grappling with and this is how he gets through it.
Um Cause I,
I really feel like it's each of us like have our own journey with this you know,
(21:18):
and I noticed my kids in some ways laugh at the things I care about in technology and they're like way past that,
you know.
So all that to say,
like I feel like it's,
it's such an individualized journey even though I think maybe,
and,
and this might be a whole separate topic but like tech companies or want us to follow a track,
you know,
they want us to dive into what they want.
(21:40):
But people are smart,
kids are smart.
So we,
we really do need stories that explore this from different angles.
That's right.
And,
you know,
it's like we're all on different parts of our journeys.
And so this idea that one size fits all or never fits all is important,
you know,
and,
and that's what I think is so great about young or excuse me,
(22:01):
literature for,
for kids,
even though middle grade books tend to have sort of a light at the end of the tunnel,
you know,
approach.
There's a hope and,
and things are maybe not neatly wrapped up,
but middle grade books tend to,
you know,
end with a message of hope just because there's light at the end of the tunnel doesn't mean the tunnel wasn't dark and scary in the moment.
(22:24):
Yeah,
that's a great point.
Yeah.
And also I think one of something that the really great middle grade novels do and I'm counting the gray among this is that,
you know,
they don't give us all the answers.
But gosh,
they help us ask good questions.
Like,
if kids walk away from your book,
asking questions about,
ah,
I wonder if I could benefit from thinking more deeply about how I use technology.
(22:49):
Well,
then mission accomplished dude,
I mean,
like asking the question is,
I think in some ways more important than having an answer.
Totally.
I mean,
it reminds me like,
in the gray,
one of the,
one of the big parts.
And it's funny because when I wrote the Gray,
I thought of it a lot as a horse book,
there's a lot of horses in it,
right?
But so he meets this horse who's wild and completely bigger than his life,
(23:12):
bigger than himself uncontrollable.
And like that meeting is such a part of his journey.
But I,
but I feel like when we read books,
this reminds me,
like,
you know,
when you,
when you,
when you read the outsiders,
I'm just,
that just pops in my brain right now.
But we all had to read that at some point,
you know,
like we may not be in a gang,
but we might relate to pony boy being an artist,
(23:33):
you know what you mean in a poet.
Um So we reflect that experience and I think books just are so important for that,
that like this idea in the gray,
you know,
meeting something wild and outside of yourself can change you and that,
and then sort of connecting with that and great stories will do that for us.
Right.
They'll,
they'll give us a storyline that we may not live out,
(23:55):
but we definitely can connect to.
And I feel like those are themes in all of your books.
Right?
I mean,
this,
I,
I don't know,
I,
as a reader,
it feels to me like helping young people navigate mental health and see the ways that we're kind of more alike than we are different.
That those feel those feel like common threads in your books.
(24:17):
For sure.
I mean,
I,
you know,
if,
if I think of the magical imperfect,
of course,
like,
you know,
this is a whole world of people who come from different places who converged,
not necessarily because they wanted to,
but they immigrated to this town and now they're all together and they honor each other's differences.
You know what I mean?
And it's,
it's just built out of empathy.
(24:38):
Well,
and the same thing is true of,
you know,
all of me too,
you know,
like in,
in this story where we see a,
a kid learn to love and accept himself in an environment where it feels like no one else does.
I mean,
that's another sort of theme I see in young adult literature more generally.
(25:01):
But in a moment when at a time when kids,
many kids experience bullying,
showing kids path to dealing with that feels important too.
I,
yeah,
I mean,
those kind of universal things that we face bullying in all kinds of forms,
um conforming to things wanting to be like someone else not speaking out,
(25:25):
like bump against this,
like yearning inside of us to be ourselves.
And that's why I think like good teachers and librarians and,
and school spaces are so instrumental in this because they help kids find who they are.
And I love that.
Books play a part in that because they're,
they're showing kids they speak to kids about like what does it mean to be yourself?
(25:48):
Despite all of the stuff,
the pressure coming down on you.
And I think that's true in all of me and you know,
the idea in books where you,
you know,
in all of me ari he,
he thought he would lose weight and that would be the answer.
But of course,
that's not the answer.
What the real answer is.
Acceptance,
right?
Finding friends who care about you for who you are and finding what's healthy for him,
(26:11):
you know,
and,
and books do that and yeah,
and they empower kids to be able to say what they need and to be able to ask for help or to not be that bystander when they see someone else who may be the target of those bullies or people who are,
(26:31):
you know,
causing harm to,
to those who may seem a little bit different.
I feel like kids lit does such important work in terms of just helping kids navigate what is complex and,
you know,
like some of us as adults,
we haven't figured it out yet.
Some of us,
I feel like so many of us have not.
(26:52):
I'm always trying to figure that you are.
But I think,
I think though,
you know,
there's,
I've just,
I've met so many young readers,
especially this year with the gray who,
who just are,
you know,
feeling like they have to know what they need or what they're supposed to be doing and they don't,
and just being able to be like,
(27:12):
yeah,
I don't always know what I'm doing either.
It's been,
it's created some really powerful conversations with kids and,
you know,
with young readers and from all,
all over the place.
Um,
and II,
I just,
and they,
and they love to talk about,
you know,
books they've read and,
and it's fun when they want to talk to me about,
you know,
one of my books too,
but just in general just,
just hearing them talk about books and how books have given them a voice.
(27:35):
It's,
it's just gives me a lot of hope for the world if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I was gonna ask you about that.
I have to imagine that the conversations or letters or,
you know,
however,
if,
whether it's in person or virtually,
or through written correspondence,
I have to imagine the conversations with that you have with your readers are pretty amazing.
I mean,
(27:56):
I've learned to be a better listener because I,
I think kids,
when kids talk or young readers in general,
like almost any age.
And it's interesting,
I mean,
I talked to a lot of college classes as well who use,
you know,
books in the classroom but they just hearing what they have to say and how they relate to stories and then how they start to talk about stories in their own lives.
(28:16):
Um And every once in a while,
there's a,
that was me story.
I always remember when all of me came out,
um I was so nervous.
I went to the,
the launch of my debut novel and,
and there was a kid,
a 14 year old kid standing there,
uh who had already read it.
It was the day it came out and he kind of looked at me and his mom was there and he's like this book told my story.
(28:41):
I,
I heard about it,
you know,
in the,
in the paper it was coming out.
I heard an interview with you and I,
I got it this morning and I read it and you know,
those are moments that you don't forget because I'm just listening and saying,
you know,
what did you connect with?
And you know,
it,
it basically gave him a voice uh for a story that he wasn't able to tell like how he was feeling that those moments have to feel incredible.
(29:04):
Like that's why you do it right.
Like that's why.
Well,
yeah,
I mean,
it brings you back to how,
how books connect us,
you know,
um,
with each other,
with,
with our own.
I'm just going back to what you're asking early.
Like our own reader's heart.
Like it makes us more human in that way.
We share stories together.
Yeah.
Which,
(29:24):
you know,
cynical me and we can edit this out later if we want to.
But,
you know,
to me this is why there's people out there trying to limit access to these books because they do make us more powerful.
They help us see ourselves as a piece of a bigger world that we're connected to and that we have a responsibility to protect and be a good steward of and that includes one another.
(29:49):
Yeah.
And I think the,
the those folks who are fighting for,
you know,
book freedom are the heroes right now because I,
I totally agree with you.
Um,
life is messy and ideology wants to step in and clean it up and bring us to its side,
whatever it might be.
And I think books show our humanity just a note on that,
(30:10):
like talking to librarians and,
and just understanding more about books and,
and my own English department at the college,
you know,
just talking about the way that,
that books are written so carefully,
so researched,
so planned.
Um There's so much responsibility that goes into books that I think a lot of people don't necessarily know about,
(30:31):
you know,
you don't just write a book and put it out.
I mean,
you like the gray,
all the books I've written,
they are so researched so nuanced,
so trying to,
to carefully approach topics and I think that's often overlooked if that makes sense.
And I always want people to know how much care an author will put into a book.
(30:52):
Yeah.
The craft of it.
And the fact that it takes years,
you know,
as a former English teacher and I know you teach writing too.
Yeah.
I mean,
the drafting and the editing and the researching and the thinking and the crying and,
you know,
all that.
But it's from the heart of who we are.
(31:12):
And,
you know,
I,
I think in particularly middle grade,
you know,
middle grade authors,
I know they're just all heart and the stories they're sharing are like,
this is a little dramatic sounding but they're like sacred.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And,
and I,
I'm sharing a sacred story and hoping that you'll connect so that you'll have your,
it'll be part of your story and your sacred journey and,
(31:33):
and that kind of thing.
I don't think that sounds dramatic at all.
I think that,
I think,
I think it sounds 100% a because,
you know,
the middle grade authors I know too are 100% hard.
Absolutely.
And I feel like that connection between hearts is what these books attempt and so often succeed in doing,
(31:55):
which is what makes them magical.
Yes,
I totally agree.
Well,
I feel like we could talk forever but I wanna be respectful of your time.
So,
as we wrap up,
let's think about it to whatever degree possible.
What magic are you currently making?
Are you able to tell us anything about upcoming uh work that we should be looking forward to?
(32:17):
Yes.
It's funny when you ask this question,
I can think of all these projects I'm working on that.
I'm so excited about,
but I'll tell you about two of them.
Um One is,
there's a,
a,
an anthology that's coming out in March called on all other nights.
Um Yes,
I've seen some posts about it.
It looks amazing.
It's,
it's a joyful,
you know,
anthology,
(32:37):
a Joyful Jewish anthology centered around Passover.
And it's like,
you definitely have to be Jewish to appreciate.
It's like just stories that center around Passover.
We were uh so Naomi Milliner and Josh Levy and I have edited this comes out with Abrams and it's got,
you know,
um Ruth Behar,
Adam Git,
Adam Git Laurel Snyder.
Um M low.
Like so many,
(32:58):
they're just fun,
you know what I mean?
And so for anyone who has like a tradition in their life that they follow and like across any faith or tradition I think will relate um to this story.
So it's been very fun and a very new experience to edit.
This can't wait for it.
It sounds amazing.
It's gonna be,
it's gonna be really great.
And so that comes out soon and then I'm working on my next novel in verse,
(33:20):
um which is currently entitled Forest Heart and it is about it.
I'll say this.
I think everyone says this about their next book.
But it's like one of my favorite favorite stories.
I think that I've written in it.
It's about some kids who experience a wildfire in California and have to live through that and what it means to be away and what it means to return and what is normal and dealing with the loss and of course,
(33:49):
it's middle grade.
So there's that,
that hope and heart that are in there.
But um but yeah,
I've never researched anything as much or talk to as many people and just trying to understand what it's been like for so many people in California um who have lived through welfare.
So that's,
that's coming out sometime in 25.
You know,
it feels like that's an important book in our changing climate.
(34:13):
You know,
I live in the northwest and we've certainly experienced wildfires more so than I ever remember.
And I think that's true across the continent around the globe.
And so I love that you are exploring that topic.
It feels like a book we need right now.
So if you could speed that along,
I would appreciate it.
I will get to work on it.
(34:34):
No,
thank you.
Yeah.
So 2025 is when we can look for that.
When do you think?
Yeah.
Ok.
All right.
Yay.
Well,
I am delighted that we had this time to chat.
Thank you so much.
Not only for joining me today,
but also for the work you do.
It's so important right now and I'm so grateful that you're out there doing it.
Oh,
thank you.
(34:54):
What a joy to be here.
Thank you so much for tuning in to the reader's heart.
More information about this episode,
including ways to connect with Chris as well as a discount code for purchasing his books through book Alicious are available at Library girl.net.
(35:20):
This podcast was created written and recorded by me Jennifer Lagarde.
All rights reserved.
Our theme music was created by common media and is available for free at Bay's royalty free Music Repository.
And the beautiful illustration for our show was created by Karina Lukin.
If you enjoyed the show,
I hope you'll leave it a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts,
(35:42):
believe it or not,
this small step makes a big difference in helping the reader's heart find its audience.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll see you next time and until then happy reading y'all.
As a reader,
I loved comics,
like comic books really had a profound effect on me.
Um And so Missus Goldberg actually allowed me to read comic books when almost everyone else in my life wouldn't,
they wouldn't,
you know,
they didn't want to accept that the Avengers or Spiderman comics were viable because she said,
(00:21):
if you promise me,
you'll also read other books.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to the Reader's Heart,
a podcast of conversations with authors and illustrators about children's literature as a vehicle for empathy and joy in a dark world.
(00:46):
The reader's heart is rooted in the belief that our world needs the magic of children's literature.
Now,
more than ever.
So let's get started this week.
My guest is Chris Barron Chris's latest book,
The Gray,
which is a personal favorite was also a project lit selection for the 2023 24 school year.
Chris is also the author of other great middle grade books,
(01:08):
including All of Me and The Magical Imperfect.
And he's the editor of a new anthology for middle grade readers called on all other nights,
a middle grade passover anthology.
Chris is a poet,
a professor and an all around nice guy.
And even though this was only our first time chatting,
(01:28):
I felt like we were instant friends and like I could chat with him for hours.
I really hope that you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
And as always,
don't forget to stick around until the end of the episode.
For more information,
including a discount code from our friends at Book Alicious.
Hi,
Chris.
Thank you so so much for joining me today.
(01:50):
I'm so excited to chat with you.
Yeah,
I'm so happy to be here.
Yay.
I,
I feel like we've been planning this for a little while and it's finally coming to fruition.
I'm so delighted for those folks who are listening to hear our conversation about your books and about children's literature more generally.
(02:10):
Um because I know that you wear multiple hats when it comes to writing both a teacher and an author.
Plus you have kids.
I'm sure you read too.
Lots of different roles as a reader and a writer.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I mean,
I,
I there are so many roles just hearing you say it reminds me of,
you know,
just time spent with my own kids and years with my students and now I'm meeting so many young readers and yeah.
(02:38):
Well,
let's start then with one role,
we'll start with one.
I always begin these interviews with sort of the same question listeners will recognize they know already what I'm about to ask you.
But I'm really fascinated by the way that children's literature in particular can help inform who we become as an adult.
I mean,
(02:58):
we're all always growing and changing and evolving.
But I love the way children's literature or can shape our heart how these books just feel particularly potent in terms of informing who we are.
So with that in mind,
I love to start by talking about your reader's heart,
you know,
like who you are as a reader.
(03:19):
And that might be you might approach that from like the books you loved as a kid or when you first started reading,
you know,
that kind of thing or you could just talk about who you are as a reader now,
whatever feels right to you.
I love this question because it really is making me think about like,
what is my reader's heart?
And it's so I feel like different now because it's more reflective,
(03:40):
but also the same as when I was growing up.
So like I was thinking back to Missus Goldberg's class,
my third grade classroom first.
It's like when I thought of the,
I think of the question,
I think that's where I,
where I start.
And she had this book report charts and you got like a little green slip for the first four books.
And if you got a like 1/5 book,
(04:01):
it would be like a blue slip.
That was a little bigger and it would have like a stamp that you got to pick and you would stamp that blue.
I know it's amazing.
Like,
you know,
you got to,
you put the blue stamp and I think I had like an octopus and then the further you went and I remember that as a reader,
I loved comics,
like comic books really had a profound effect on me.
(04:24):
Um And so Missus Goldberg actually allowed me to read comic books when almost everyone else in my life wouldn't,
they wouldn't,
you know,
they didn't want to accept that the Avengers or Spiderman comics were viable because she said,
if you promise me,
you'll also read other books and,
you know,
to a third grader,
I didn't just say,
(04:44):
OK,
and just blow it off.
I really took it to heart.
And so I would stare then at the rack of the paperbacks in the classroom and there was like the Phantom toll booth,
you know,
and then one day I picked it up and I was like,
this is really good.
And,
and then of course,
I read Lion,
the Witch and the Wardrobe,
the bar afloat,
like these books that were just all in front of me.
(05:06):
And I,
I kind of fell in love with these stories and so combine that with,
with kind of a rough life at home.
Um Lots of things going on with parents and a lot of instability and stuff like that.
And so books became such like a stable thing for me.
And just one thing that pops in my head thinking about this is in the line in which in the wardrobe,
(05:29):
for example,
you know,
reading about Edmund who and I,
not that I'm spoiling this most classic book,
but you know,
Edmund does some bad,
he betrays his whole family and then he's like forgiven and like he's rescued and forgiven and I thought like,
even bad kids,
you know,
kids are totally important.
(05:49):
Not that I was such a bad kid,
but I was just thinking about the things going on in my life.
And so my reader's heart kind of rests in this place where like books become truth for kids and,
and that book.
And,
you know,
so all the way from,
from an accepting teacher who let me read comics because I was so moved by virtue and kind of profound nature of comic.
And then getting into starting to read more books,
(06:10):
I really found like escape in truth.
And that's my reader's heart and it,
I think it extends to now too.
I have so much to say about that.
I feel like we could just,
this whole podcast could just be about your response to this one question and so much to say,
um first,
you know,
we don't know,
this is our first time meeting.
So we're sharing these things as new acquaintances to one another.
(06:33):
But I was a big reader of comics as a kid too.
Um,
I know.
Right.
Um,
but although I think probably a little different genre to you,
I grew up again,
like,
we have some things in common,
really unstable home life.
Very,
very poor.
I've shared this before publicly so this isn't a bombshell or anything.
But,
uh,
the few books I did have as a kid were used as kindling in our wood stove when winter we lost power.
(06:59):
So for a long time,
I was,
I didn't want new books.
Like I was afraid to have,
like,
I was afraid that of losing them again.
I think,
like,
as an adult,
I can,
I can recognize that.
But as a kid,
I just didn't want them to be replaced.
But what I did have were like several,
a half dozen or so copies of Mad magazine that I read over and over and over and over again.
(07:26):
I can see the recognition on your face.
Right.
Oh,
I love Man Magazine.
Yeah.
Oh,
yes.
And I'm so grateful to teachers,
like the ones that you mentioned,
who allowed me to read those because I think that messaging is what lets us know that we're readers.
Like,
when,
as a teacher,
if we tell a kid that their reading choice is not real reading.
(07:48):
What we're telling them is they're not a real reader.
Whereas the opposite is true.
Right.
Totally.
I mean,
I,
I think she could have made some other binary decision.
Like,
nope.
And yes.
But instead she,
she just,
maybe I'm romanticizing a little bit because it's all the way back in third grade.
But all I remember is compassion and understanding and,
like,
actually not even just allowing me to read comics but enthusiastically re letting me read it and then asking me about them,
(08:16):
you know,
and that,
and it led to whatever,
maybe she had a grand design or not,
but it led me into reading other books,
you know.
Exactly.
I,
I think when you,
there's no stamina,
right?
Like there's no reading stamina,
there's no reading accomplishment without motivation.
You,
motivation fuels those other things.
(08:36):
So,
it sounds like your teacher knew what all great teachers know is that they have to motivate you to do these things if you're going to do the work when it gets hard.
Totally.
I mean,
look,
I wanted the candy that came with the number of slips on the book report chart.
But I also,
you know,
I'm like,
I have to do this.
It's my homework and I found,
I found reading,
you know,
so I love that.
(08:58):
I love that so much.
One of my elementary school teachers you talking about it reminded me she had a caterpillar that she made,
that circled the whole room with little like circles made of construction paper and every book you read,
you got to add ac it wasn't the exact same thing but the competition to be the person whose book took you around the corner or led you to this other part of the room or whatever the competition for that was real.
(09:25):
I mean,
we were,
it was intense.
Oh,
my gosh,
I can imagine.
Yes,
I love it.
I love it.
But more seriously that said it's not surprising to me at all to learn that,
you know,
your reader's heart is also really in tune with thinking about how books help kids uh see themselves in the world and navigate tough situations.
(09:54):
I loved what you said about how even bad kids and I'm putting bad kids in quotes in air quotes here are important and necessary because one of the things that kids books does,
what they do is they teach us that we all make mistakes and what's really matters is what we do after that.
Right.
Right.
We're not defined by the thing and I think your books in particular do such a great job of helping kids recognize that they're not defined by one thing in their lives.
(10:25):
No,
I would just say that that's actually one thing about books that I absolutely love because I,
you know,
I like short funny videos and I like poignant.
Obviously,
I'm a poet.
I like things to,
to,
to move fast and powerfully.
But the thing is about a book or collection of poems is is it's like an exploration over time.
So just to use the bad kid example which is,
(10:47):
again,
we're air quoting all over the place with saying bad kid.
But,
you know,
a troubled person gets into trouble does wrong things,
but there's like time and space to let it unfold so that there's like a sense of initiation redemption rites of passage.
What they've done fits into a larger part of the story and it,
we get to read it play out.
(11:08):
So it just feels so much more real.
That's just what I love about books.
And I,
and I see that on my own writing too.
Like I,
I love having the space to allow characters to deal with the real stuff that goes on in their lives and not have to be polished about it.
They can actually go through it if that makes sense.
Yeah,
because as a kid,
(11:28):
when you're in that moment,
when,
like,
you know,
all your devices are being taken away and you're forced to go upstate New York and hang out with your aunt.
Of course,
I'm thinking about the gray,
but,
you know,
you're in that moment where something for you that feels catastrophic is happening.
Not only does it feel like no one else has ever gone through what you're going through that you're the only person who's ever dealt with this,
(11:50):
but that it will never end that.
This moment is the defining moment of your life and books give you an opportunity to see.
I,
I don't know,
like a way out,
you know,
a guide to navigate all that.
I love that.
Yeah,
a way out a way through.
Um,
absolutely.
Because I,
I think,
you know,
for me it's always been books that have helped me see through the hardest times.
(12:14):
Um,
and that's why I'll just say,
you know,
really quick here that I am a huge re reader of books.
Like,
because,
and,
and some of my friends,
like,
you know what's gonna happen.
I'm like,
that's exactly why I read them again because I had to find comfort in seeing the struggle and I learn new things every time.
So,
yeah,
that's right.
And as an author too,
I mean,
you know,
(12:34):
that sometimes every word was a struggle to get on that page and was chosen.
So as in the rereading process,
you get to appreciate other aspects of it.
Maybe that you didn't see the first time.
Absolutely.
Well,
let's talk a little bit about the gray.
Um,
since I sort of alluded to it earlier and it's your most recent book for the,
(12:56):
you know,
those people who are listening who may not have read it first,
you know,
press pause and go correct.
That,
that's the first thing.
But then when you come back,
um,
do you,
uh could you mind giving us a little book talk for those readers who haven't have come across it yet?
Yeah.
Basically the gray is a story of a kid named Sasha who,
(13:19):
um,
is a very sensitive kid and he,
he lives in New York City uh with his mom and dad.
And he really struggles with anxiety for all kinds of reasons and some,
somewhat of his extra sensitivity,
his ability to kind of feel the world around him.
Um and you know,
in a way it was a gift but it kind of got corrupted by the world around him and the anxiety builds and builds and it gets so bad that eventually starts to call it the gray.
(13:47):
And so he has to face the gray and things just get worse and worse.
And the things that used to bring him comfort,
like video games or devices or ipad,
use that kind of stuff like to start to exacerbate it and bad things start to happen to him with his friends and eventually his family gets together with their therapist and they decide,
(14:07):
ok,
what,
what Sasha needs is a break.
And so he,
he moves for the summer,
basically up to the upstate New York with his Aunt Ruthie and has to kind of give up all the things that he thought made him whole and kind of reset his life and learn to find his way again with this,
with this wonderful elder and he doesn't want to be there.
(14:29):
But he starts to,
he discovers all kinds of adventures,
makes new friends,
um discovers riding horses and his aunt and uncle owned a Jewish,
you know,
sleep sleep away camp,
which is now abandoned.
And he gets to explore that and to kind of discover again who he is and who he might be in the future.
One of the things I love about the gray is the way that Sasha finds his way through that is number one,
(14:56):
there's multiple ways and it's very nuanced all the things that you mentioned.
And also he has a caring doctor who and he utilizes therapy tools to help him through his mental health journey.
And I feel like that's so important right now for kids to see that everyone struggles with things and that not only is it important to ask for help,
(15:25):
but there are tools that are sometimes stigmatized,
you know,
uh it therapy is still,
there's still a stigma around therapy in this country and books like the gray that show a character using those tools just feels really important to me right now.
And I,
I mean,
I have to believe that was a conscious decision on your part.
Percent.
No,
it's interesting,
(15:45):
I one of the things about,
about the,
the anxiety and kind of the panic,
it's something that I deal with.
And you know,
I've been able to really,
and it's something that came on.
It was there early in life,
but then has grown more in,
in,
in later life.
And then I see it so much in my students kind of post pandemic years even though I know it's still stuff is still with us.
You know,
(16:06):
a lot of kids dealing with anxiety.
And so a big part of this book was making sure I did the research and the understanding of these tools because I do want young readers to have the tools.
So,
you know,
as an example,
like Sasha uses a lot of box breathing on a day to day basis all the time and I use that all the time.
(16:27):
I do it with my classes.
I do it with my own kids.
It's a great way to sort of take a moment even when the gray was launched.
Uh I was at my book launch and it was,
you know,
I was there and there were like over 100 people and I was so nervous.
So I had everyone I said,
OK,
we're all going to do box breathing right now to help us get through this.
And then I was fine,
you know,
like,
um but I,
but I do think it's important that to,
(16:49):
to show that here's a kid on an adventure,
dealing with life and he,
when he,
when things happen to him,
he has tools to use um and a whole range of tools that he may or may not agree with but starts to use them and see how they work for him.
So super important.
And you know,
I was a public school educator for 20 years in some one capacity or another.
(17:12):
And so I I it's hard for me not to read books like this through that lens as well.
And I just kept thinking about as a teacher.
Gosh,
this book would be,
would have been really helpful to me in the classroom in terms of thinking about some strategies that I might be able to employ with kids when I could see that they were struggling and model for my myself using as well,
(17:37):
like you said,
with the box breathing and some of the other strategies I know that educators aren't your primary audience.
But I found for me that was a particularly helpful thing.
No,
I appreciate that.
And I certainly like,
wasn't thinking,
I,
I wasn't thinking of that in particular.
I mean,
I'm always thinking of that as a parent as an educator,
like what,
(17:58):
what information can a book give as I'm focusing on heart and empathy and story because it's always story first as a writer.
But I feel like,
you know,
kids are dealing with so much and this is one thing I'm learning as I talk to more and more young readers,
you know,
like visiting schools and stuff.
Um they're dealing with so much and books give them like the language right to,
(18:19):
to understand what they're even dealing with.
And so I do think it's helpful when books provide like tools like that,
you know.
So it's something that I think is integral to the story because I want it to be really practical as well.
I love that.
One of the other things I really love too.
I was thinking about as you were talking is the way that you weave technology into the story as not a part of the problem.
(18:45):
And I'm putting that in quotes again,
in quotes again.
Um But as a part of our lives that we have to constantly evaluate in terms of whether or not they are helping or hindering us in that moment.
So like Sasha sees all of his devices being taken away as a punishment.
And as you know,
(19:06):
the worst thing that could possibly ever happen to him.
But I think over time,
he begins to recognize what the adults in his life are trying to do,
which is just to say these things aren't bad.
It's just right now in this moment,
they aren't helping you.
So we need to remove them and figure out how to add them back in a way that's healthy for you.
(19:27):
I love that.
Yeah,
that's exactly true.
And for him,
you know,
there's this guttural response to the realization of that,
you know,
like realizing that,
you know,
he feel like it's not a punishment.
He knows it's right.
But he,
he's like dealing with it's not withdrawal,
it's just,
it's such an integral part of his life.
What does it mean for it to be taken away?
(19:47):
And then when he starts to see himself again or differently or reset,
it's really,
it's much more powerful for him in our world today,
especially for kids.
I think there's messaging out there that makes it seem like,
you know,
if you're not connected all of the time,
then somehow you're not living your fullest life and if you don't post about something that happened,
(20:09):
then it's not really real.
And that,
you know,
everyone's social media feed which looks perfect and flawless and face tuned and all of that um is somehow representative of these like perfect lives that you don't have in today's world for today's kids that just feels like such an important lesson for them to,
(20:33):
to develop the habit of just evaluating the good or not good that these tools are serving in their lives right now.
Yeah,
I totally agree with you.
I mean,
it's a huge mental health issue that we're sort of not equipped to know what to do even as a,
I'm thinking as a parent,
like I talk to my kids a lot about their use of technology,
(20:53):
social media,
what are they relying on?
You know.
So it's a big deal and,
and I certainly think the gray doesn't offer all the answers to those questions as much as just the story of one kid who has some mental health issues that he is grappling with and this is how he gets through it.
Um Cause I,
I really feel like it's each of us like have our own journey with this you know,
(21:18):
and I noticed my kids in some ways laugh at the things I care about in technology and they're like way past that,
you know.
So all that to say,
like I feel like it's,
it's such an individualized journey even though I think maybe,
and,
and this might be a whole separate topic but like tech companies or want us to follow a track,
you know,
they want us to dive into what they want.
(21:40):
But people are smart,
kids are smart.
So we,
we really do need stories that explore this from different angles.
That's right.
And,
you know,
it's like we're all on different parts of our journeys.
And so this idea that one size fits all or never fits all is important,
you know,
and,
and that's what I think is so great about young or excuse me,
(22:01):
literature for,
for kids,
even though middle grade books tend to have sort of a light at the end of the tunnel,
you know,
approach.
There's a hope and,
and things are maybe not neatly wrapped up,
but middle grade books tend to,
you know,
end with a message of hope just because there's light at the end of the tunnel doesn't mean the tunnel wasn't dark and scary in the moment.
(22:24):
Yeah,
that's a great point.
Yeah.
And also I think one of something that the really great middle grade novels do and I'm counting the gray among this is that,
you know,
they don't give us all the answers.
But gosh,
they help us ask good questions.
Like,
if kids walk away from your book,
asking questions about,
ah,
I wonder if I could benefit from thinking more deeply about how I use technology.
(22:49):
Well,
then mission accomplished dude,
I mean,
like asking the question is,
I think in some ways more important than having an answer.
Totally.
I mean,
it reminds me like,
in the gray,
one of the,
one of the big parts.
And it's funny because when I wrote the Gray,
I thought of it a lot as a horse book,
there's a lot of horses in it,
right?
But so he meets this horse who's wild and completely bigger than his life,
(23:12):
bigger than himself uncontrollable.
And like that meeting is such a part of his journey.
But I,
but I feel like when we read books,
this reminds me,
like,
you know,
when you,
when you,
when you read the outsiders,
I'm just,
that just pops in my brain right now.
But we all had to read that at some point,
you know,
like we may not be in a gang,
but we might relate to pony boy being an artist,
(23:33):
you know what you mean in a poet.
Um So we reflect that experience and I think books just are so important for that,
that like this idea in the gray,
you know,
meeting something wild and outside of yourself can change you and that,
and then sort of connecting with that and great stories will do that for us.
Right.
They'll,
they'll give us a storyline that we may not live out,
(23:55):
but we definitely can connect to.
And I feel like those are themes in all of your books.
Right?
I mean,
this,
I,
I don't know,
I,
as a reader,
it feels to me like helping young people navigate mental health and see the ways that we're kind of more alike than we are different.
That those feel those feel like common threads in your books.
(24:17):
For sure.
I mean,
I,
you know,
if,
if I think of the magical imperfect,
of course,
like,
you know,
this is a whole world of people who come from different places who converged,
not necessarily because they wanted to,
but they immigrated to this town and now they're all together and they honor each other's differences.
You know what I mean?
And it's,
it's just built out of empathy.
(24:38):
Well,
and the same thing is true of,
you know,
all of me too,
you know,
like in,
in this story where we see a,
a kid learn to love and accept himself in an environment where it feels like no one else does.
I mean,
that's another sort of theme I see in young adult literature more generally.
(25:01):
But in a moment when at a time when kids,
many kids experience bullying,
showing kids path to dealing with that feels important too.
I,
yeah,
I mean,
those kind of universal things that we face bullying in all kinds of forms,
um conforming to things wanting to be like someone else not speaking out,
(25:25):
like bump against this,
like yearning inside of us to be ourselves.
And that's why I think like good teachers and librarians and,
and school spaces are so instrumental in this because they help kids find who they are.
And I love that.
Books play a part in that because they're,
they're showing kids they speak to kids about like what does it mean to be yourself?
(25:48):
Despite all of the stuff,
the pressure coming down on you.
And I think that's true in all of me and you know,
the idea in books where you,
you know,
in all of me ari he,
he thought he would lose weight and that would be the answer.
But of course,
that's not the answer.
What the real answer is.
Acceptance,
right?
Finding friends who care about you for who you are and finding what's healthy for him,
(26:11):
you know,
and,
and books do that and yeah,
and they empower kids to be able to say what they need and to be able to ask for help or to not be that bystander when they see someone else who may be the target of those bullies or people who are,
(26:31):
you know,
causing harm to,
to those who may seem a little bit different.
I feel like kids lit does such important work in terms of just helping kids navigate what is complex and,
you know,
like some of us as adults,
we haven't figured it out yet.
Some of us,
I feel like so many of us have not.
(26:52):
I'm always trying to figure that you are.
But I think,
I think though,
you know,
there's,
I've just,
I've met so many young readers,
especially this year with the gray who,
who just are,
you know,
feeling like they have to know what they need or what they're supposed to be doing and they don't,
and just being able to be like,
(27:12):
yeah,
I don't always know what I'm doing either.
It's been,
it's created some really powerful conversations with kids and,
you know,
with young readers and from all,
all over the place.
Um,
and II,
I just,
and they,
and they love to talk about,
you know,
books they've read and,
and it's fun when they want to talk to me about,
you know,
one of my books too,
but just in general just,
just hearing them talk about books and how books have given them a voice.
(27:35):
It's,
it's just gives me a lot of hope for the world if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I was gonna ask you about that.
I have to imagine that the conversations or letters or,
you know,
however,
if,
whether it's in person or virtually,
or through written correspondence,
I have to imagine the conversations with that you have with your readers are pretty amazing.
I mean,
(27:56):
I've learned to be a better listener because I,
I think kids,
when kids talk or young readers in general,
like almost any age.
And it's interesting,
I mean,
I talked to a lot of college classes as well who use,
you know,
books in the classroom but they just hearing what they have to say and how they relate to stories and then how they start to talk about stories in their own lives.
(28:16):
Um And every once in a while,
there's a,
that was me story.
I always remember when all of me came out,
um I was so nervous.
I went to the,
the launch of my debut novel and,
and there was a kid,
a 14 year old kid standing there,
uh who had already read it.
It was the day it came out and he kind of looked at me and his mom was there and he's like this book told my story.
(28:41):
I,
I heard about it,
you know,
in the,
in the paper it was coming out.
I heard an interview with you and I,
I got it this morning and I read it and you know,
those are moments that you don't forget because I'm just listening and saying,
you know,
what did you connect with?
And you know,
it,
it basically gave him a voice uh for a story that he wasn't able to tell like how he was feeling that those moments have to feel incredible.
(29:04):
Like that's why you do it right.
Like that's why.
Well,
yeah,
I mean,
it brings you back to how,
how books connect us,
you know,
um,
with each other,
with,
with our own.
I'm just going back to what you're asking early.
Like our own reader's heart.
Like it makes us more human in that way.
We share stories together.
Yeah.
Which,
(29:24):
you know,
cynical me and we can edit this out later if we want to.
But,
you know,
to me this is why there's people out there trying to limit access to these books because they do make us more powerful.
They help us see ourselves as a piece of a bigger world that we're connected to and that we have a responsibility to protect and be a good steward of and that includes one another.
(29:49):
Yeah.
And I think the,
the those folks who are fighting for,
you know,
book freedom are the heroes right now because I,
I totally agree with you.
Um,
life is messy and ideology wants to step in and clean it up and bring us to its side,
whatever it might be.
And I think books show our humanity just a note on that,
(30:10):
like talking to librarians and,
and just understanding more about books and,
and my own English department at the college,
you know,
just talking about the way that,
that books are written so carefully,
so researched,
so planned.
Um There's so much responsibility that goes into books that I think a lot of people don't necessarily know about,
(30:31):
you know,
you don't just write a book and put it out.
I mean,
you like the gray,
all the books I've written,
they are so researched so nuanced,
so trying to,
to carefully approach topics and I think that's often overlooked if that makes sense.
And I always want people to know how much care an author will put into a book.
(30:52):
Yeah.
The craft of it.
And the fact that it takes years,
you know,
as a former English teacher and I know you teach writing too.
Yeah.
I mean,
the drafting and the editing and the researching and the thinking and the crying and,
you know,
all that.
But it's from the heart of who we are.
(31:12):
And,
you know,
I,
I think in particularly middle grade,
you know,
middle grade authors,
I know they're just all heart and the stories they're sharing are like,
this is a little dramatic sounding but they're like sacred.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And,
and I,
I'm sharing a sacred story and hoping that you'll connect so that you'll have your,
it'll be part of your story and your sacred journey and,
(31:33):
and that kind of thing.
I don't think that sounds dramatic at all.
I think that,
I think,
I think it sounds 100% a because,
you know,
the middle grade authors I know too are 100% hard.
Absolutely.
And I feel like that connection between hearts is what these books attempt and so often succeed in doing,
(31:55):
which is what makes them magical.
Yes,
I totally agree.
Well,
I feel like we could talk forever but I wanna be respectful of your time.
So,
as we wrap up,
let's think about it to whatever degree possible.
What magic are you currently making?
Are you able to tell us anything about upcoming uh work that we should be looking forward to?
(32:17):
Yes.
It's funny when you ask this question,
I can think of all these projects I'm working on that.
I'm so excited about,
but I'll tell you about two of them.
Um One is,
there's a,
a,
an anthology that's coming out in March called on all other nights.
Um Yes,
I've seen some posts about it.
It looks amazing.
It's,
it's a joyful,
you know,
anthology,
(32:37):
a Joyful Jewish anthology centered around Passover.
And it's like,
you definitely have to be Jewish to appreciate.
It's like just stories that center around Passover.
We were uh so Naomi Milliner and Josh Levy and I have edited this comes out with Abrams and it's got,
you know,
um Ruth Behar,
Adam Git,
Adam Git Laurel Snyder.
Um M low.
Like so many,
(32:58):
they're just fun,
you know what I mean?
And so for anyone who has like a tradition in their life that they follow and like across any faith or tradition I think will relate um to this story.
So it's been very fun and a very new experience to edit.
This can't wait for it.
It sounds amazing.
It's gonna be,
it's gonna be really great.
And so that comes out soon and then I'm working on my next novel in verse,
(33:20):
um which is currently entitled Forest Heart and it is about it.
I'll say this.
I think everyone says this about their next book.
But it's like one of my favorite favorite stories.
I think that I've written in it.
It's about some kids who experience a wildfire in California and have to live through that and what it means to be away and what it means to return and what is normal and dealing with the loss and of course,
(33:49):
it's middle grade.
So there's that,
that hope and heart that are in there.
But um but yeah,
I've never researched anything as much or talk to as many people and just trying to understand what it's been like for so many people in California um who have lived through welfare.
So that's,
that's coming out sometime in 25.
You know,
it feels like that's an important book in our changing climate.
(34:13):
You know,
I live in the northwest and we've certainly experienced wildfires more so than I ever remember.
And I think that's true across the continent around the globe.
And so I love that you are exploring that topic.
It feels like a book we need right now.
So if you could speed that along,
I would appreciate it.
I will get to work on it.
(34:34):
No,
thank you.
Yeah.
So 2025 is when we can look for that.
When do you think?
Yeah.
Ok.
All right.
Yay.
Well,
I am delighted that we had this time to chat.
Thank you so much.
Not only for joining me today,
but also for the work you do.
It's so important right now and I'm so grateful that you're out there doing it.
Oh,
thank you.
(34:54):
What a joy to be here.
Thank you so much for tuning in to the reader's heart.
More information about this episode,
including ways to connect with Chris as well as a discount code for purchasing his books through book Alicious are available at Library girl.net.
(35:20):
This podcast was created written and recorded by me Jennifer Lagarde.
All rights reserved.
Our theme music was created by common media and is available for free at Bay's royalty free Music Repository.
And the beautiful illustration for our show was created by Karina Lukin.
If you enjoyed the show,
I hope you'll leave it a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts,
(35:42):
believe it or not,
this small step makes a big difference in helping the reader's heart find its audience.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll see you next time and until then happy reading y'all.
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