April 30, 2024 • 42 mins
Mike Curato joins Jennifer to discuss the power of children's literature to shape our hearts and navigate the world with compassion. They explore their own experiences as readers and artists, emphasizing the importance of personal storytelling and self-expression. They also discuss the impact of social media on creativity and self-perception. Mike shares his approach to school visits, focusing on his personal journey and the challenges he faced. Mike discusses his book Flamer'and the importance of creating stories that address issues faced by marginalized communities. He also shares his upcoming projects, including an adult graphic novel and a middle-grade graphic novel.
Show notes and other information related to this episode (including a discount code from Bookelicious) can be found here.
Chapters
00:00 The Power of Children's Literature 10:58 The Impact of Social Media 36:57 Upcoming Projects
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I,
I was really like,
kind of amazed right by all the momentum and like queer rights and recognition that we were making um,
in recent years and,
and now it feels like there's a lot of the drill and push back and there's a lot of hate and violence being targeted at my community.
(00:22):
And this is the thing that I can do to try to help kids that are in vulnerable situations,
right?
Um,
because,
you know,
the scariest thing for me,
what keeps me up at night is that the kids who need a book like this books like mine,
(00:42):
they're the ones that are being kept from them.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to the Reader's heart,
a podcast of conversations with authors and illustrators about children's literature as a vehicle for empathy and joy in a dark world.
(01:11):
The reader's heart is rooted in the belief that our world needs the magic of children's literature now more than ever.
So let's get started this week.
My guest is the author and illustrator of some of my very favorite picture books,
including all of The Little Elliot books which chronicle the adventures of a lovable polka dotted elephant where is being a bear,
(01:35):
which is all about what it's like to feel like maybe you don't belong but how a caring friend can make all the difference in helping you feel accepted.
And I haven't even touched on all the incredible books that Mike has illustrated for other authors.
Mike's debut young adult graphic novel,
Flamer is a book of my Heart and we're going to talk about it quite a bit during this episode,
(01:58):
Mike is talented,
funny and an all around great person.
It was such a joy to chat with him.
And I am so excited for you to hear our conversation as always though.
Don't forget to stick around until the end of the episode.
For more information,
including a discount code from our friends at Book Alicious.
(02:18):
Hi,
Mike.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Hi Jennifer.
How are you doing?
I'm doing fine.
I feel like we've been planning this forever.
So I'm excited to finally be able to chat with you.
Yes,
let's do it,
let's do it.
Ok.
So I love to start these conversations by talking a little bit about the idea of a reader's heart.
(02:42):
I'm really fascinated by the way that children's literature in particular uh can help shape our hearts and help us figure out who we wanna be in the world and navigate it in ways that I think are maybe more compassionate.
And so I wondered if you might chat a little bit about who you are as a reader,
tell us about your reader's heart to start us off.
(03:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
Um,
I mean,
wow.
Um,
I like lots of different kinds of books.
Um,
I guess if I,
if I think back,
uh,
when I was kind of a young reader,
I won't say that I was a hesitant reader.
Um,
especially once books were sort of lacking pictures.
(03:27):
Uh,
I found just the big bricks of words very intimidating.
Um So I was an avid comic book reader.
Um for many years,
I know shocking.
Um So I,
I was very into x-men,
uh which makes a lot of sense.
The first batman,
I was really into batman.
(03:48):
Um like,
you know,
mysterious,
mysterious guy who solves all the mysteries and stuff like that.
Love that love the um kind of dark feel to the stories.
But then I was really into X Men,
which made sense,
right?
Because they're,
they're outcast with uh special powers and they're trying to do good and even though everyone's trying to get rid of them and uh that resonated with me as a young person.
(04:16):
Um Yeah,
and then,
and then I had some good teachers in high school who got some titles in front of me that really wowed me and got me more interested in,
in reading.
I remember reading Toni Morrison for the first time in high school,
which was a Revelation,
Cormac mccarthy and you know,
Helmer Yeah.
(04:38):
Yeah.
And I,
I thought,
I just thought mythology was really cool.
So,
I didn't really understand what,
you know,
Iambic Pect Tame was,
or,
like,
I didn't really,
you know,
I would,
like,
read a passage and not quite get it,
but I was so interested in my teacher's translation of it that I was,
like,
enraptured and,
(04:59):
yeah.
So then I,
I got more into reading just prose.
Yeah.
As I,
as I got older and now,
I don't know,
I'm kind of,
kind of all over the place for someone who writes a lot of fiction.
I actually love nonfiction.
I love,
um,
biographies for many years.
I'm kind of overdue for many years.
(05:19):
I would read books about queens and ladies from,
from history.
I love an underdog and I think a woman in power is a really interesting story,
especially,
you know,
that what I mean,
things have changed a little but,
you know,
I'm talking about,
you know,
hundreds of years ago where a woman rarely had power.
(05:43):
Um,
so it's,
it's cool to learn about those stories and I love mysteries and I love like,
like real life mysteries.
You know,
I love seeing my own story reflected in a book that I read.
And I love learning about,
uh,
different point of view that I've,
(06:03):
I have no experience with at all.
So it's,
it's all good to me and,
you know,
you're talking about compassion and something that I share with students a lot is I,
you know,
I encourage them to share their stories because I feel like if everyone got to share their story,
there would be so much more compassion and understanding the world and we obviously need more of that these days.
(06:27):
Yeah,
I mean,
I can go on but well,
I mean,
I want you to go on.
We are you are gonna go on,
trust me.
I'm gonna,
I wanna pick your brain about so many things.
But I have also so much to say about what you've just shared first.
I feel like people who don't read comics think that comics are all about the heroes,
(06:48):
but they really are about the underdogs.
They really are this narrative about,
you know,
figuring out who you are and,
and oftentimes turning the idea that you're weak,
turning your weakness into a strength like that kind of thing,
things that you perceive as,
as being negative about yourself and figuring out that those are your biggest strength,
(07:10):
those kind of things.
So it's not shocking to me at all,
even though I'd never connected those dots that you would have been a comics reader as a kid cause I do see that theme of sort of underdogs and,
or just like,
you know,
characters who are maybe misunderstood either by the world or by themselves as being a,
(07:31):
a theme in your work.
Does that feel conscious to you or just something that's just in your blood.
So that's what you do.
Uh It,
it kind of feels like both.
Sometimes I'll go into it with that mindset and then sometimes I'm just like doing my thing and then I'm like,
oh,
there it is.
Yeah,
it just kind of comes out.
(07:51):
It's just a reoccurring theme.
Yeah.
It's funny also that you mentioned that,
you know,
you have some memories of being a reader as a kid but maybe also feel and I may be projecting a little bit but feeling like maybe you came to reading in a nontraditional way.
It's funny that you say that because so many of the people I've talked to say the same thing.
(08:15):
You know,
there's a few people who will say,
oh,
I was reading since birth,
you know,
I came out of the womb with a book.
But a lot of the people I've talked to have been sort of taken the scenic route to it.
I think that story is more common than people think.
Yeah.
And um whatever works,
right?
Any way that you come to reading is valid and appreciated,
(08:38):
I think.
Um but there is,
I,
I think there is a joy in kind of discovering a love for it.
And I think for me,
it's kind of,
I,
I think,
I think that way,
you know,
about um making art is like,
oh,
I was born,
always making art,
like I was just always drawing.
(09:00):
So I understand like of of that type of reader perspective where it's just,
uh,
a part of you,
right?
But kind of discovering that I loved reading was exciting,
I think because I thought it was beyond my capabilities and then when I discovered,
(09:21):
oh,
um,
there's something in this for me and,
um,
and I deserve to read.
Um,
I deserve a good story just like anyone else does.
So I think,
I think it's pretty special too.
Oh,
I love that.
I mean,
that makes me teary a little bit.
This idea of telling yourself,
(09:42):
oh,
I deserve to read in a good story.
Yes.
Yes,
you do.
But I want to hear then because I think for a lot of people,
they might have the opposite experience of you where they feel like maybe art is something they're not deserving of being able to do or that they're not good enough,
you know,
to do that kind of thing.
(10:02):
We will you talk a little bit about that part of your heart?
Then you said you just basically came out of the womb drawing ta talk to me about that great segue because um yeah,
something else that I,
I I'm constantly like encouraging people.
I feel like it to keep their own sketch pad or,
you know,
make art for themselves.
I think art uh is often seen as something performative,
(10:26):
something that you have to be quote unquote good at um something that you have to leave open for judgment by other people.
Uh when actually like reading,
it's very personal.
It's not something that you have to share.
You know,
I think the same way that one keeps a journal and you,
(10:47):
you write your personal thoughts in it um that you don't need to share with anyone.
You can make artwork and not share with anyone also or share.
You know,
I just think it's so healthy,
right?
It's,
it's problem solving its expression.
It's a form of communication that reaches different places inside than writing or speaking uh can reach,
(11:15):
I think because it's so connected to your body also.
You know,
you're,
you're moving,
you're making movements and your thinking and your feeling and you,
you're pouring it outside of herself into the physical plane.
Like that's pretty,
yeah,
(11:35):
it's pretty amazing,
right?
Um This the the act of,
of creation um and,
and we do with other things,
right?
I mean,
people build things,
people cook things.
Um It's,
it's just a different form of expression.
So I think,
you know,
I'm not trying to be trite when I say like anyone can be an artist.
(11:57):
It's more like everyone is an artist,
right?
And you just need to figure out what your art is.
I'm not saying everyone is going to make a living doing it.
It's like I'm not gonna,
you know,
become a Michelin star chef,
but I still,
you know,
you know,
I,
I can bake a good cake.
(12:18):
I love that I can share with the people I love.
You know.
Um,
so,
so,
yeah,
I think as,
as I discovered,
like,
oh,
I'm,
I'm worthy of,
of reading and of books so too,
are,
are people worthy of making art,
appreciating art?
(12:38):
Um,
yeah,
it's,
it's funny.
Right.
The limits that we set on ourselves.
Um,
because why?
Well,
I was going to ask,
I mean,
you know,
I'm about approximately 100 150 years older than you are,
but I do think you're so sweet.
There's a reason this is a podcast my dear and not something odd video,
(13:01):
but uh I,
I think we both were alive during a time where there wasn't social media or at least not in the way that it is now.
And I wonder,
do you think that affects the performative aspect of art that people seem to get hung up on?
Sure.
I think,
I mean,
I,
I think you kind of put your finger on something where everything's performative now,
(13:26):
right?
Everything is um uh what is the word that I'm looking for?
Um edited?
Isn't quite it?
Art art directed.
I,
I don't know how to put,
you know,
the stage curated.
That is the word,
which is funny because it's just one more letter on my last name.
(13:48):
Um And it's curator.
Um but I love it.
I love that.
I know.
Right.
Um Yeah.
So there,
there is a bit of that filters of life these days that you and I didn't have,
I mean,
we had it and we still had TV.
Right.
Which,
which is very produced.
(14:09):
Um,
but in our day to day interactions with people that we know.
Um,
you know,
you,
you,
you got what you saw kind of,
um,
it's interesting.
Right.
Because before social media I think,
especially,
(14:30):
uh,
once I went through my adolescence and I don't know,
I was,
I was kind of,
uh angsty,
an angsty teen,
a snarky young adult.
Um,
I,
I had like,
the teeny chip on my shoulder maybe.
And I was highly suspicious of people who were too shiny and too,
(14:51):
uh,
perfect.
I,
you know,
and I'm still suspicious of those people.
What I'm like,
ok,
friend.
Like,
what,
what's that?
You know,
like,
just I'm,
I'm much more comfortable with people where I can kind of see the rough edges and be like,
ok,
we're both human.
Um,
great.
I,
I just went on like,
a little tangent high there,
(15:12):
but I think it actually really relates to what we've been talking about because,
you know,
you create art for young people primarily and I think it's just sort of a,
a trait of young people,
especially as you get into that,
like,
sort of pre teen and then teen age to feel like you're the only person who ever is going through the thing that you're going through to feel like you're the only person who's going to school with a giant zit on their nose or to feel like you're the only person who's imperfect,
(15:46):
you know,
like all of that and social media just I think amplifies and exacerbates that because now the way that you connect with the world is so filtered and face tuned and all of those things that it just amplifies those feelings of,
of feeling like your flaws are not only unique to you,
(16:08):
but that are,
that they're 10 times worse,
which makes I feel like the work that you do even more important,
you know,
books that help kids recognize that a,
there are other people who feel this way,
you know,
that you're not alone in feeling that way and that we're all sort of have rough edges.
(16:29):
But those are the things that make us beautiful.
Mhm.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
so when you do school visits and stuff and you're like,
doing,
are your school visits more centered on the artwork or the writing process?
I know this feels like a clunky transition.
But trust me,
it's related in my brain and I'll get that.
(16:49):
I actually have a lot of focus on just my own personal story.
You know,
who,
who I was when I was a student's age,
what I liked to do then,
um,
what my dreams were then and how that journey played out.
Um,
it wasn't just a straightforward,
(17:10):
you know,
I always knew I wanted to make books and then I went to school for it and then I got a job doing it and here I am today and look at how great my books are.
I'm gonna show you them now.
I,
you know what I mean?
I,
I sat through that.
That sounds like the worst school visit ever.
So,
thank you for not doing that.
Yeah.
You know,
and I've,
(17:31):
I've,
I've sat through these presentations but I,
I remember being a college student and um we would have symposium,
right?
I went,
I went to school for illustration and um artists designers would come in and I mean,
I was very often inspired,
but it just was so intimidating to see these sort of like giants of the industry,
(17:55):
like share all of their triumphs and some definitely were condescending as well and some were sweet,
but I wanted to know how they got to that point,
right?
Like I'm more interested in the transformation,
like,
how,
(18:15):
how did you get there?
So that's what I like to share is like my mess,
right?
Just the,
the the Struggle,
the Struggle Bus because that's,
that's the interesting part.
That's the story,
right?
Like that's what we wanna read is,
you know,
the character growth.
That's,
that's what we're here for.
(18:36):
And so I try to share that part of myself and I do,
you know,
I do share,
like,
here's my process,
like here's what I finally came up with and here's how I write and,
but also it's,
it's different for everybody.
So I'm,
I'm not saying my ways right?
Or the best way other people might have better ways that work for you.
(18:56):
But yeah,
that's what interests me anyway.
And it,
I found that it has resonated with people to show that,
that bridge of like,
well,
here's where I started and then here is how I uh traverse the challenges and it can take time.
(19:16):
Well,
I feel like that's so much more relatable,
you know,
for kids.
But also,
you know,
like we talk a lot about how important it is to see your experience represented on the page.
And that is true.
That is so important.
But I also think it's,
it's really important for kids to see an experience on the cover that they might be able to achieve as well.
(19:39):
You know,
like your name is on the cover of a book and when you share these sort of messy scenic route paths to getting there,
it makes a kid feel like I could get there too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's funny,
like thinking back,
you know,
about when I was sitting in their seat,
you know,
(20:00):
I it everything felt so weirdly impossible.
Just like how do adults adult,
like how do you do that?
That's scary and like really foreign,
you know.
Um I'm still figuring it out.
Like,
I mean,
I think I'm technically at this point,
(20:21):
but I sure don't feel like one.
Yeah,
I feel that and you know,
and with every book also,
I feel like I have these moments are like,
oh,
right.
I always have these moments of,
I still don't know what I'm doing when I'm making a book.
Like there,
there are things that I've learned and I'm like,
OK,
I know this,
(20:41):
I know this,
but it's really specific to each story.
Right.
There's,
there's just this egg that you need to wait to hatch.
Sometimes that has the,
the essence of the book in it.
And it's like you can't,
there,
there's no formula for it for like a really good story.
(21:01):
Well,
that makes,
gives me an opportunity then to ask if it's ok for us to talk a little bit about Flamer.
Um I know,
you know,
in publishing terms,
that book came out a few years ago and,
and author illustrators aren't always that keen to talk about their previous work.
But I love that book so much,
(21:22):
Mike.
I mean,
I've given it away 10,000 times and I keep it on my own personal shelf because it means so much to me.
But you talk a lot,
you just talked about how you bring your own story to the author visit experience.
And I wonder if you've had,
(21:43):
I mean,
I guess let's do this first for those few readers who maybe haven't read Flamer,
they should first pause and go correct that and then come back.
But would you mind just telling us a little bit about that book for those,
for those listeners?
Sure.
Um Flamer is a young adult graphic novel.
(22:05):
It's about Aidan Navarro who's a 14 year old uh Filipino white mixed kid.
Uh It's a summer before his freshman year of high school and he's away at a scout camp and he is dealing with uh friendships and bullying and how those two things can overlap.
(22:25):
Sometimes he has questions about his religion is dealing with um body dysmorphia.
Um and um experiencing microaggressions,
racism.
Um And all that's just the backdrop to Aidan kind of discovering his sexual identity.
(22:48):
Um You know,
something like.
Right,
exactly.
Nice light book.
Um And it is,
it is semiautobiographical.
Um Yeah,
and it's uh probably for me,
the most important book I've ever made and I think I understand why,
(23:12):
but tell us why,
tell us why you think it's the most important book you've ever made.
I mean,
I mean,
I did mention it semi autobiographical.
So I feel like while I,
I definitely put myself in into every book that I make this feels especially vulnerable,
but I made it uh because I know that there are so many people going through what I went through then and,
(23:39):
you know,
I'm 43 years old,
right?
So when I was Ann's age,
it was 1995 that's actually when the book is set.
Um And while I can say that we've you know,
we've,
we've come a ways in the last 30 years,
we still have a ways to go.
And we are feeling like this pendulum uh switch right now,
(24:03):
right where I,
I was really like,
kind of amazed right by all the momentum in like queer rights and recognition that we were making um in recent years and,
and now it feels like there's a lot of vitriol and push back and there's a lot of hate and violence being targeted at my community.
(24:26):
And this is the thing that I can do to try to help kids that are in vulnerable situations,
right?
Um Because,
you know,
the scariest thing for me,
what keeps me up at night is that the kids who need a book like this books like mine,
(24:47):
they're the ones that are being kept from them.
And,
you know,
I said,
you know,
our community is experiencing violence but it's not,
it's not only external violence.
How do you help a child who has violence for themselves?
Like a learned self hatred?
That is what I experienced as a teenager.
(25:08):
I learned how to hate myself.
And so this book does deal with suicidal ideation,
uh which is rampant right now and the odds are way higher for queer kids and kids of color and especially queer kids of color.
Um And I,
(25:30):
and I'll just throw in,
you know,
we were talking about social media,
I mean,
since the advent of social media,
teenage suicidal ideation has skyrocketed across all,
you know,
all demographics.
Um So I recognize it's,
it's not just a queer problem.
It's an important book to me because this is,
(25:50):
you know,
a sort of life raft that I can try to send out there.
It must,
I have to.
Well,
first of all,
let me just say one of the things that I keep telling myself so that I don't,
you know,
spiral into deep depression is that,
you know,
push back is a consequence of progress.
(26:11):
And so I know that what we're seeing right now is a reflection of how far things have come.
Not that there isn't still more work to do.
Not that we,
you know,
still have to evolve as a species to ensure that all people are um not just recognized but celebrated and respected and given equal rights.
(26:37):
We still have lots of work to do there.
But I also,
as an old lady can see the progress that we have made and I know that push back is a consequence of that.
And so that's one of the like I just try to remember that those the two things are happening in tandem that being said,
you know,
I have said on this podcast many times that I feel like people like you and me,
(27:00):
authors,
illustrators and then teachers,
librarians like myself,
we're partners in this work in terms of you all create these incredible books to help kids feel seen to feel less alone to help them,
see that there are other stories out there that might reflect their own or give them a window into a world.
(27:25):
They don't think they know,
you know that,
um,
and for me,
our job is to hand those books to kids.
And so it feels like a partnership that I'm so,
so grateful to have while also recognizing that for somebody like you,
the lift is heavier in the sense that I have to imagine a book like Flamer takes an emotional toll to create.
(27:51):
Am I imagining that or is,
does it just feels like that would be true because it's an emotional toll to read too?
Yeah.
Um It was,
it was a very challenging book to work on and there were,
yeah,
I,
I will say it was both the easiest and hardest thing I've ever made because uh I was not want for content,
(28:15):
right?
I mean,
the story really flowed out of me at a certain point but illustrating it especially there were scenes that I had to keep putting off for days where I felt strong enough to work on them,
I think because as I was saying before,
like the act of making art is so physical as it is emotional.
(28:37):
And so it would,
it would take a lot out of me.
And there were,
there were some dark days I had while working on it right where,
you know,
I don't,
I don't like going back to those times and those places in my mind.
So,
yeah,
there were a lot of tears uh shed making that book.
(28:57):
Um But,
you know,
thinking about the readers is what propelled me to make it,
thinking about how maybe if someone could read this,
it could give them some sort of hope or validation.
And I had to just remind myself I'm ok now,
(29:19):
like I'm safe.
you know,
I have a loving community.
I'm not the one in danger right now.
And it's,
it's my turn to try to be the adult that I wanted to have as an ally when I was a teen.
And also just a sort of,
I don't know,
point of order.
(29:40):
But when you said that,
uh I'm doing most of the heavy lifting.
I,
I kind of disagree with that because I feel like librarians and educators,
I mean,
you all are really on the front lines,
right?
I,
I have like a sort of buffer zone,
at least where I can usually choose when I participate.
(30:04):
And when I don't participate in the discourse,
I can say like,
you know what,
I don't want to engage today and I can put my phone away or whatever.
And I know educators who don't get to make that decision and,
and they're,
you know,
you said you're the,
you're the ones putting the books in the kids hands and therefore you're also like the ones most vulnerable to attack.
(30:29):
And so yes,
I do believe this is a partnership and that we all need each other.
And,
um,
but yeah,
I think it's really debatable to say who's doing the heavy lifting here.
Um Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
And you're absolutely right.
The lift is different.
Just not one is heavier,
(30:50):
just different.
You're right.
I appreciate you correcting me there.
Thank you.
No worries.
And I don't mean to correct.
I just mean,
you know what I mean?
Like you're right,
you're absolutely right.
So,
yeah,
so thank you to everyone who is doing that work.
Like I can't imagine,
I,
I am so incensed and like angry on your behalf right now of all of the God,
(31:15):
just the,
the ungratefulness.
I think it's the biggest thing,
right?
Where not long ago y'all were heroes,
right?
For working through COVID to educate everybody.
And now I'm not even gonna like share the words that are being used.
Yeah,
I mean,
I,
I want to make sure that we have time to talk about your most recent work and what you're doing.
(31:41):
But I also think this conversation's incredibly important and quite frankly,
it's the reason this podcast exists.
You know,
I,
I am a retired as a teacher and a librarian.
I'm also a white straight heterosexual woman.
And so I'm not at the center of this fight nor do I bear the brunt of the hate and vitriol that is a consequence of frankly the propaganda that is being spread right now that,
(32:19):
you know,
we could go on about this,
but that really has political motivations more than anything else.
So,
but I do feel a responsibility or maybe not.
But,
and because of that,
I feel a responsibility to use whatever platform I have to provide a,
a way to amplify what I think are the more truthful narratives around children's letter,
(32:44):
the people who create children's literature and the people who put children's literature in the hands of young folks.
So that's really what this work is all about.
And I'm so grateful to people like you who agree to chat with me about it.
But who also continue to persevere and create those books in the face of what I imagine must also be challenging in terms of the editorial conversations you're having because I am sure publishers are,
(33:10):
you know,
afraid,
fearful right now and are trying to take a lighter hand when it comes to what books are being put out there in,
scared of what's going to sell and what isn't.
Um So I guess that's not so much a question just as a way for me to say,
thank you for continuing to persevere.
(33:31):
Um But I do wanna make an awkward transition here to what you're doing right now because I think that's important.
I wanna know about what you're working on today and uh what you've got coming up like what we can expect from my curra and what we can put on our preorder list,
what we can sign up for.
I want to know all of those things.
Well,
um I am very blessed uh that I,
(33:54):
I work with publishers who do support me who are not internally censoring my work.
So I'm working on two projects right now.
One is my first adult uh book.
And I,
yeah,
and I,
I think I'm seeing it here first.
I want everyone in the world to know that this book,
(34:15):
I,
I started working on this book long before all these book banning shenanigans started.
So I don't want anyone getting it twisted that I'm like running away from children's books because that is definitely not what is happening,
honey.
So anyway,
back to the tea.
I am working on an adult graphic novel called GNS.
(34:35):
Oh my gosh,
I take my money right now,
Mike,
I want it.
I want it right and I will send you done,
done and done.
Um So that is with Algonquin.
Um not my usual publisher since it's not children's right.
It will be out next summer,
(34:57):
summer 25 or a little bit before in time for pride.
That is what we're aiming for.
I'll just say it's,
it's a story of four friends who call themselves the Boy L Club and it's all about existing as a gay Asian American,
you know,
in this,
in this country.
Uh it's also a,
(35:19):
a period piece,
air quotes.
Um,
it takes place in the early two thousands which like,
oh my go historical fiction.
I know it's historic,
it's hysterical fiction.
I would hope.
Um So,
yeah,
it's gay.
I,
I don't know if you got that.
I was wondering,
(35:40):
I,
I sort of got the feeling but I wasn't sure.
Thank you for clarifying and,
and I'll say,
you know,
if you,
if you wanna fight a book banner,
definitely buy this book because they will be collecting their pearls Mary.
I cannot,
we was,
it was so fun to work on an adult book where I didn't have to worry about,
(36:03):
you know,
anything.
I just kind of was free to do whatever.
It's about a group of friends in their,
you know,
their twenties and the oldest is like 30.
So uh just a different,
a different genre for me and I'm having a lot of fun doing it.
I'm also very tired of working on it.
I'm trying to finish it this summer because then the next project that I'm gonna illustrate is something I've already written.
(36:28):
I've co-authored a book called Pals and I've co-authored it with my friend Laura Robbins,
uh who is the person I dedicated Flamer to who is my real life Violet if you've read player.
So this is the story of uh two friends who are pen pals.
(36:48):
And it's very much based on our pen pal friendship when we were kids and it's a middle grade graphic novel.
So we're still still doing kid lit.
This will be my first uh middle grade book,
which is exciting.
Oh,
these are,
I love,
I'm so excited about every project that you're sharing that.
(37:10):
I mean,
they both feel number one timely and important.
Number two,
joyful,
like full of joy and um and also just like,
I don't know,
necessary in our world right now.
I feel like the world needs more Mike Curra.
Oh,
good because um you know,
(37:31):
I still need a paycheck.
So I'm glad I really want to go back to corporate America.
Thank you.
No,
no.
And I mean,
you know,
I'm biased because I'm,
you know,
running for president of the Mike You fan club.
But I,
you know,
yeah,
I'll announce my candidacy right now.
(37:51):
Um,
but I'm delighted by the idea that kids get to have you in their reading lives at all ages now because you've done so many picture books now.
You've got a middle grade coming out.
You've got y a,
an adult.
I mean,
like there are kids who will carry Mike Curado with them throughout their entire life and that just makes me so,
(38:17):
so happy.
That's pretty cool when you put it that way.
Yeah,
and I do,
I,
I miss picture books so I,
I am working on some manuscripts right now.
Um,
but there's nothing,
nothing sold yet,
but in the meantime,
how do you,
um,
get to ever do work where you're like working with other illustrators or people who want to do illustration,
(38:40):
that kind of thing.
Uh,
well,
I'm glad you asked because this summer I'm actually teaching a workshop.
It's the second time I'm teaching it.
So it's gonna be even better than last year.
I'm doing a summer workshop at the fine arts work center in beautiful Provincetown Massachusetts.
Um,
(39:00):
it's June 23rd to 28 and it's called Visual Alchemy.
And the building blocks,
a picture book illustration which is a fancy way of saying that I'm gonna be teaching,
you know,
everything I know about illustrating a picture book.
So we're gonna discuss fundamentals like harnessing elements like composition,
like color,
(39:21):
character design and layout uh to elicit emotion and create a compelling visual narrative.
And I'm gonna do a little picture book history review and we do fun like in class exercises and critiques every day and,
and portfolio reviews.
(39:41):
And I'll also mention fine arts work center is doing a new like tiered tuition system this year.
And if you are a working teacher,
there's like a really incredible discount.
So,
yeah,
if you go to Fa wc.org,
um you can get all the details.
Well,
I will put a link in the show notes for this show so that listeners who are interested can sign up to take a week's worth of learning with my Curado.
(40:11):
Oh,
my gosh.
I want to sign up.
It sounds amazing.
And yes,
I mean,
I don't know,
we'd get anything done.
It would just be hilarious the whole week,
but I'll also put links to Mike's books in the show notes and to your website so that people can find you and keep reading all of your great books while we wait for the new ones to come out.
(40:36):
Thank you so much for doing this today.
Thank you so much for having me,
Jennifer.
It's always a joy to talk with you.
I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast.
It's been a blast and I'll just say that I hope that when your new books come out,
we can schedule another time for you to chat about them.
Sounds great.
(41:08):
Thank you so much for tuning in to the reader's heart.
More information about this episode,
including ways to connect with Mike as well as a discount code for purchasing his books through book Alicious are available at Library girl.net.
This podcast was created written and recorded by me Jennifer Lagarde.
All rights reserved.
Our theme music was created by com media and is available for free at Pixie Bay's royalty free music compositor.
(41:32):
And the beautiful illustration for our show was created by Karina Lukin.
If you enjoy this podcast,
I hope you'll leave us a five star review at wherever you listen to podcasts,
believe it or not.
This small step makes a big difference in helping the reader's heart find its audience,
speaking of which don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll see you next time and until then happy reading y'all.
I,
I was really like,
kind of amazed right by all the momentum and like queer rights and recognition that we were making um,
in recent years and,
and now it feels like there's a lot of the drill and push back and there's a lot of hate and violence being targeted at my community.
(00:22):
And this is the thing that I can do to try to help kids that are in vulnerable situations,
right?
Um,
because,
you know,
the scariest thing for me,
what keeps me up at night is that the kids who need a book like this books like mine,
(00:42):
they're the ones that are being kept from them.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to the Reader's heart,
a podcast of conversations with authors and illustrators about children's literature as a vehicle for empathy and joy in a dark world.
(01:11):
The reader's heart is rooted in the belief that our world needs the magic of children's literature now more than ever.
So let's get started this week.
My guest is the author and illustrator of some of my very favorite picture books,
including all of The Little Elliot books which chronicle the adventures of a lovable polka dotted elephant where is being a bear,
(01:35):
which is all about what it's like to feel like maybe you don't belong but how a caring friend can make all the difference in helping you feel accepted.
And I haven't even touched on all the incredible books that Mike has illustrated for other authors.
Mike's debut young adult graphic novel,
Flamer is a book of my Heart and we're going to talk about it quite a bit during this episode,
(01:58):
Mike is talented,
funny and an all around great person.
It was such a joy to chat with him.
And I am so excited for you to hear our conversation as always though.
Don't forget to stick around until the end of the episode.
For more information,
including a discount code from our friends at Book Alicious.
(02:18):
Hi,
Mike.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Hi Jennifer.
How are you doing?
I'm doing fine.
I feel like we've been planning this forever.
So I'm excited to finally be able to chat with you.
Yes,
let's do it,
let's do it.
Ok.
So I love to start these conversations by talking a little bit about the idea of a reader's heart.
(02:42):
I'm really fascinated by the way that children's literature in particular uh can help shape our hearts and help us figure out who we wanna be in the world and navigate it in ways that I think are maybe more compassionate.
And so I wondered if you might chat a little bit about who you are as a reader,
tell us about your reader's heart to start us off.
(03:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
Um,
I mean,
wow.
Um,
I like lots of different kinds of books.
Um,
I guess if I,
if I think back,
uh,
when I was kind of a young reader,
I won't say that I was a hesitant reader.
Um,
especially once books were sort of lacking pictures.
(03:27):
Uh,
I found just the big bricks of words very intimidating.
Um So I was an avid comic book reader.
Um for many years,
I know shocking.
Um So I,
I was very into x-men,
uh which makes a lot of sense.
The first batman,
I was really into batman.
(03:48):
Um like,
you know,
mysterious,
mysterious guy who solves all the mysteries and stuff like that.
Love that love the um kind of dark feel to the stories.
But then I was really into X Men,
which made sense,
right?
Because they're,
they're outcast with uh special powers and they're trying to do good and even though everyone's trying to get rid of them and uh that resonated with me as a young person.
(04:16):
Um Yeah,
and then,
and then I had some good teachers in high school who got some titles in front of me that really wowed me and got me more interested in,
in reading.
I remember reading Toni Morrison for the first time in high school,
which was a Revelation,
Cormac mccarthy and you know,
Helmer Yeah.
(04:38):
Yeah.
And I,
I thought,
I just thought mythology was really cool.
So,
I didn't really understand what,
you know,
Iambic Pect Tame was,
or,
like,
I didn't really,
you know,
I would,
like,
read a passage and not quite get it,
but I was so interested in my teacher's translation of it that I was,
like,
enraptured and,
(04:59):
yeah.
So then I,
I got more into reading just prose.
Yeah.
As I,
as I got older and now,
I don't know,
I'm kind of,
kind of all over the place for someone who writes a lot of fiction.
I actually love nonfiction.
I love,
um,
biographies for many years.
I'm kind of overdue for many years.
(05:19):
I would read books about queens and ladies from,
from history.
I love an underdog and I think a woman in power is a really interesting story,
especially,
you know,
that what I mean,
things have changed a little but,
you know,
I'm talking about,
you know,
hundreds of years ago where a woman rarely had power.
(05:43):
Um,
so it's,
it's cool to learn about those stories and I love mysteries and I love like,
like real life mysteries.
You know,
I love seeing my own story reflected in a book that I read.
And I love learning about,
uh,
different point of view that I've,
(06:03):
I have no experience with at all.
So it's,
it's all good to me and,
you know,
you're talking about compassion and something that I share with students a lot is I,
you know,
I encourage them to share their stories because I feel like if everyone got to share their story,
there would be so much more compassion and understanding the world and we obviously need more of that these days.
(06:27):
Yeah,
I mean,
I can go on but well,
I mean,
I want you to go on.
We are you are gonna go on,
trust me.
I'm gonna,
I wanna pick your brain about so many things.
But I have also so much to say about what you've just shared first.
I feel like people who don't read comics think that comics are all about the heroes,
(06:48):
but they really are about the underdogs.
They really are this narrative about,
you know,
figuring out who you are and,
and oftentimes turning the idea that you're weak,
turning your weakness into a strength like that kind of thing,
things that you perceive as,
as being negative about yourself and figuring out that those are your biggest strength,
(07:10):
those kind of things.
So it's not shocking to me at all,
even though I'd never connected those dots that you would have been a comics reader as a kid cause I do see that theme of sort of underdogs and,
or just like,
you know,
characters who are maybe misunderstood either by the world or by themselves as being a,
(07:31):
a theme in your work.
Does that feel conscious to you or just something that's just in your blood.
So that's what you do.
Uh It,
it kind of feels like both.
Sometimes I'll go into it with that mindset and then sometimes I'm just like doing my thing and then I'm like,
oh,
there it is.
Yeah,
it just kind of comes out.
(07:51):
It's just a reoccurring theme.
Yeah.
It's funny also that you mentioned that,
you know,
you have some memories of being a reader as a kid but maybe also feel and I may be projecting a little bit but feeling like maybe you came to reading in a nontraditional way.
It's funny that you say that because so many of the people I've talked to say the same thing.
(08:15):
You know,
there's a few people who will say,
oh,
I was reading since birth,
you know,
I came out of the womb with a book.
But a lot of the people I've talked to have been sort of taken the scenic route to it.
I think that story is more common than people think.
Yeah.
And um whatever works,
right?
Any way that you come to reading is valid and appreciated,
(08:38):
I think.
Um but there is,
I,
I think there is a joy in kind of discovering a love for it.
And I think for me,
it's kind of,
I,
I think,
I think that way,
you know,
about um making art is like,
oh,
I was born,
always making art,
like I was just always drawing.
(09:00):
So I understand like of of that type of reader perspective where it's just,
uh,
a part of you,
right?
But kind of discovering that I loved reading was exciting,
I think because I thought it was beyond my capabilities and then when I discovered,
(09:21):
oh,
um,
there's something in this for me and,
um,
and I deserve to read.
Um,
I deserve a good story just like anyone else does.
So I think,
I think it's pretty special too.
Oh,
I love that.
I mean,
that makes me teary a little bit.
This idea of telling yourself,
(09:42):
oh,
I deserve to read in a good story.
Yes.
Yes,
you do.
But I want to hear then because I think for a lot of people,
they might have the opposite experience of you where they feel like maybe art is something they're not deserving of being able to do or that they're not good enough,
you know,
to do that kind of thing.
(10:02):
We will you talk a little bit about that part of your heart?
Then you said you just basically came out of the womb drawing ta talk to me about that great segue because um yeah,
something else that I,
I I'm constantly like encouraging people.
I feel like it to keep their own sketch pad or,
you know,
make art for themselves.
I think art uh is often seen as something performative,
(10:26):
something that you have to be quote unquote good at um something that you have to leave open for judgment by other people.
Uh when actually like reading,
it's very personal.
It's not something that you have to share.
You know,
I think the same way that one keeps a journal and you,
(10:47):
you write your personal thoughts in it um that you don't need to share with anyone.
You can make artwork and not share with anyone also or share.
You know,
I just think it's so healthy,
right?
It's,
it's problem solving its expression.
It's a form of communication that reaches different places inside than writing or speaking uh can reach,
(11:15):
I think because it's so connected to your body also.
You know,
you're,
you're moving,
you're making movements and your thinking and your feeling and you,
you're pouring it outside of herself into the physical plane.
Like that's pretty,
yeah,
(11:35):
it's pretty amazing,
right?
Um This the the act of,
of creation um and,
and we do with other things,
right?
I mean,
people build things,
people cook things.
Um It's,
it's just a different form of expression.
So I think,
you know,
I'm not trying to be trite when I say like anyone can be an artist.
(11:57):
It's more like everyone is an artist,
right?
And you just need to figure out what your art is.
I'm not saying everyone is going to make a living doing it.
It's like I'm not gonna,
you know,
become a Michelin star chef,
but I still,
you know,
you know,
I,
I can bake a good cake.
(12:18):
I love that I can share with the people I love.
You know.
Um,
so,
so,
yeah,
I think as,
as I discovered,
like,
oh,
I'm,
I'm worthy of,
of reading and of books so too,
are,
are people worthy of making art,
appreciating art?
(12:38):
Um,
yeah,
it's,
it's funny.
Right.
The limits that we set on ourselves.
Um,
because why?
Well,
I was going to ask,
I mean,
you know,
I'm about approximately 100 150 years older than you are,
but I do think you're so sweet.
There's a reason this is a podcast my dear and not something odd video,
(13:01):
but uh I,
I think we both were alive during a time where there wasn't social media or at least not in the way that it is now.
And I wonder,
do you think that affects the performative aspect of art that people seem to get hung up on?
Sure.
I think,
I mean,
I,
I think you kind of put your finger on something where everything's performative now,
(13:26):
right?
Everything is um uh what is the word that I'm looking for?
Um edited?
Isn't quite it?
Art art directed.
I,
I don't know how to put,
you know,
the stage curated.
That is the word,
which is funny because it's just one more letter on my last name.
(13:48):
Um And it's curator.
Um but I love it.
I love that.
I know.
Right.
Um Yeah.
So there,
there is a bit of that filters of life these days that you and I didn't have,
I mean,
we had it and we still had TV.
Right.
Which,
which is very produced.
(14:09):
Um,
but in our day to day interactions with people that we know.
Um,
you know,
you,
you,
you got what you saw kind of,
um,
it's interesting.
Right.
Because before social media I think,
especially,
(14:30):
uh,
once I went through my adolescence and I don't know,
I was,
I was kind of,
uh angsty,
an angsty teen,
a snarky young adult.
Um,
I,
I had like,
the teeny chip on my shoulder maybe.
And I was highly suspicious of people who were too shiny and too,
(14:51):
uh,
perfect.
I,
you know,
and I'm still suspicious of those people.
What I'm like,
ok,
friend.
Like,
what,
what's that?
You know,
like,
just I'm,
I'm much more comfortable with people where I can kind of see the rough edges and be like,
ok,
we're both human.
Um,
great.
I,
I just went on like,
a little tangent high there,
(15:12):
but I think it actually really relates to what we've been talking about because,
you know,
you create art for young people primarily and I think it's just sort of a,
a trait of young people,
especially as you get into that,
like,
sort of pre teen and then teen age to feel like you're the only person who ever is going through the thing that you're going through to feel like you're the only person who's going to school with a giant zit on their nose or to feel like you're the only person who's imperfect,
(15:46):
you know,
like all of that and social media just I think amplifies and exacerbates that because now the way that you connect with the world is so filtered and face tuned and all of those things that it just amplifies those feelings of,
of feeling like your flaws are not only unique to you,
(16:08):
but that are,
that they're 10 times worse,
which makes I feel like the work that you do even more important,
you know,
books that help kids recognize that a,
there are other people who feel this way,
you know,
that you're not alone in feeling that way and that we're all sort of have rough edges.
(16:29):
But those are the things that make us beautiful.
Mhm.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
so when you do school visits and stuff and you're like,
doing,
are your school visits more centered on the artwork or the writing process?
I know this feels like a clunky transition.
But trust me,
it's related in my brain and I'll get that.
(16:49):
I actually have a lot of focus on just my own personal story.
You know,
who,
who I was when I was a student's age,
what I liked to do then,
um,
what my dreams were then and how that journey played out.
Um,
it wasn't just a straightforward,
(17:10):
you know,
I always knew I wanted to make books and then I went to school for it and then I got a job doing it and here I am today and look at how great my books are.
I'm gonna show you them now.
I,
you know what I mean?
I,
I sat through that.
That sounds like the worst school visit ever.
So,
thank you for not doing that.
Yeah.
You know,
and I've,
(17:31):
I've,
I've sat through these presentations but I,
I remember being a college student and um we would have symposium,
right?
I went,
I went to school for illustration and um artists designers would come in and I mean,
I was very often inspired,
but it just was so intimidating to see these sort of like giants of the industry,
(17:55):
like share all of their triumphs and some definitely were condescending as well and some were sweet,
but I wanted to know how they got to that point,
right?
Like I'm more interested in the transformation,
like,
how,
(18:15):
how did you get there?
So that's what I like to share is like my mess,
right?
Just the,
the the Struggle,
the Struggle Bus because that's,
that's the interesting part.
That's the story,
right?
Like that's what we wanna read is,
you know,
the character growth.
That's,
that's what we're here for.
(18:36):
And so I try to share that part of myself and I do,
you know,
I do share,
like,
here's my process,
like here's what I finally came up with and here's how I write and,
but also it's,
it's different for everybody.
So I'm,
I'm not saying my ways right?
Or the best way other people might have better ways that work for you.
(18:56):
But yeah,
that's what interests me anyway.
And it,
I found that it has resonated with people to show that,
that bridge of like,
well,
here's where I started and then here is how I uh traverse the challenges and it can take time.
(19:16):
Well,
I feel like that's so much more relatable,
you know,
for kids.
But also,
you know,
like we talk a lot about how important it is to see your experience represented on the page.
And that is true.
That is so important.
But I also think it's,
it's really important for kids to see an experience on the cover that they might be able to achieve as well.
(19:39):
You know,
like your name is on the cover of a book and when you share these sort of messy scenic route paths to getting there,
it makes a kid feel like I could get there too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's funny,
like thinking back,
you know,
about when I was sitting in their seat,
you know,
(20:00):
I it everything felt so weirdly impossible.
Just like how do adults adult,
like how do you do that?
That's scary and like really foreign,
you know.
Um I'm still figuring it out.
Like,
I mean,
I think I'm technically at this point,
(20:21):
but I sure don't feel like one.
Yeah,
I feel that and you know,
and with every book also,
I feel like I have these moments are like,
oh,
right.
I always have these moments of,
I still don't know what I'm doing when I'm making a book.
Like there,
there are things that I've learned and I'm like,
OK,
I know this,
(20:41):
I know this,
but it's really specific to each story.
Right.
There's,
there's just this egg that you need to wait to hatch.
Sometimes that has the,
the essence of the book in it.
And it's like you can't,
there,
there's no formula for it for like a really good story.
(21:01):
Well,
that makes,
gives me an opportunity then to ask if it's ok for us to talk a little bit about Flamer.
Um I know,
you know,
in publishing terms,
that book came out a few years ago and,
and author illustrators aren't always that keen to talk about their previous work.
But I love that book so much,
(21:22):
Mike.
I mean,
I've given it away 10,000 times and I keep it on my own personal shelf because it means so much to me.
But you talk a lot,
you just talked about how you bring your own story to the author visit experience.
And I wonder if you've had,
(21:43):
I mean,
I guess let's do this first for those few readers who maybe haven't read Flamer,
they should first pause and go correct that and then come back.
But would you mind just telling us a little bit about that book for those,
for those listeners?
Sure.
Um Flamer is a young adult graphic novel.
(22:05):
It's about Aidan Navarro who's a 14 year old uh Filipino white mixed kid.
Uh It's a summer before his freshman year of high school and he's away at a scout camp and he is dealing with uh friendships and bullying and how those two things can overlap.
(22:25):
Sometimes he has questions about his religion is dealing with um body dysmorphia.
Um and um experiencing microaggressions,
racism.
Um And all that's just the backdrop to Aidan kind of discovering his sexual identity.
(22:48):
Um You know,
something like.
Right,
exactly.
Nice light book.
Um And it is,
it is semiautobiographical.
Um Yeah,
and it's uh probably for me,
the most important book I've ever made and I think I understand why,
(23:12):
but tell us why,
tell us why you think it's the most important book you've ever made.
I mean,
I mean,
I did mention it semi autobiographical.
So I feel like while I,
I definitely put myself in into every book that I make this feels especially vulnerable,
but I made it uh because I know that there are so many people going through what I went through then and,
(23:39):
you know,
I'm 43 years old,
right?
So when I was Ann's age,
it was 1995 that's actually when the book is set.
Um And while I can say that we've you know,
we've,
we've come a ways in the last 30 years,
we still have a ways to go.
And we are feeling like this pendulum uh switch right now,
(24:03):
right where I,
I was really like,
kind of amazed right by all the momentum in like queer rights and recognition that we were making um in recent years and,
and now it feels like there's a lot of vitriol and push back and there's a lot of hate and violence being targeted at my community.
(24:26):
And this is the thing that I can do to try to help kids that are in vulnerable situations,
right?
Um Because,
you know,
the scariest thing for me,
what keeps me up at night is that the kids who need a book like this books like mine,
(24:47):
they're the ones that are being kept from them.
And,
you know,
I said,
you know,
our community is experiencing violence but it's not,
it's not only external violence.
How do you help a child who has violence for themselves?
Like a learned self hatred?
That is what I experienced as a teenager.
(25:08):
I learned how to hate myself.
And so this book does deal with suicidal ideation,
uh which is rampant right now and the odds are way higher for queer kids and kids of color and especially queer kids of color.
Um And I,
(25:30):
and I'll just throw in,
you know,
we were talking about social media,
I mean,
since the advent of social media,
teenage suicidal ideation has skyrocketed across all,
you know,
all demographics.
Um So I recognize it's,
it's not just a queer problem.
It's an important book to me because this is,
(25:50):
you know,
a sort of life raft that I can try to send out there.
It must,
I have to.
Well,
first of all,
let me just say one of the things that I keep telling myself so that I don't,
you know,
spiral into deep depression is that,
you know,
push back is a consequence of progress.
(26:11):
And so I know that what we're seeing right now is a reflection of how far things have come.
Not that there isn't still more work to do.
Not that we,
you know,
still have to evolve as a species to ensure that all people are um not just recognized but celebrated and respected and given equal rights.
(26:37):
We still have lots of work to do there.
But I also,
as an old lady can see the progress that we have made and I know that push back is a consequence of that.
And so that's one of the like I just try to remember that those the two things are happening in tandem that being said,
you know,
I have said on this podcast many times that I feel like people like you and me,
(27:00):
authors,
illustrators and then teachers,
librarians like myself,
we're partners in this work in terms of you all create these incredible books to help kids feel seen to feel less alone to help them,
see that there are other stories out there that might reflect their own or give them a window into a world.
(27:25):
They don't think they know,
you know that,
um,
and for me,
our job is to hand those books to kids.
And so it feels like a partnership that I'm so,
so grateful to have while also recognizing that for somebody like you,
the lift is heavier in the sense that I have to imagine a book like Flamer takes an emotional toll to create.
(27:51):
Am I imagining that or is,
does it just feels like that would be true because it's an emotional toll to read too?
Yeah.
Um It was,
it was a very challenging book to work on and there were,
yeah,
I,
I will say it was both the easiest and hardest thing I've ever made because uh I was not want for content,
(28:15):
right?
I mean,
the story really flowed out of me at a certain point but illustrating it especially there were scenes that I had to keep putting off for days where I felt strong enough to work on them,
I think because as I was saying before,
like the act of making art is so physical as it is emotional.
(28:37):
And so it would,
it would take a lot out of me.
And there were,
there were some dark days I had while working on it right where,
you know,
I don't,
I don't like going back to those times and those places in my mind.
So,
yeah,
there were a lot of tears uh shed making that book.
(28:57):
Um But,
you know,
thinking about the readers is what propelled me to make it,
thinking about how maybe if someone could read this,
it could give them some sort of hope or validation.
And I had to just remind myself I'm ok now,
(29:19):
like I'm safe.
you know,
I have a loving community.
I'm not the one in danger right now.
And it's,
it's my turn to try to be the adult that I wanted to have as an ally when I was a teen.
And also just a sort of,
I don't know,
point of order.
(29:40):
But when you said that,
uh I'm doing most of the heavy lifting.
I,
I kind of disagree with that because I feel like librarians and educators,
I mean,
you all are really on the front lines,
right?
I,
I have like a sort of buffer zone,
at least where I can usually choose when I participate.
(30:04):
And when I don't participate in the discourse,
I can say like,
you know what,
I don't want to engage today and I can put my phone away or whatever.
And I know educators who don't get to make that decision and,
and they're,
you know,
you said you're the,
you're the ones putting the books in the kids hands and therefore you're also like the ones most vulnerable to attack.
(30:29):
And so yes,
I do believe this is a partnership and that we all need each other.
And,
um,
but yeah,
I think it's really debatable to say who's doing the heavy lifting here.
Um Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
And you're absolutely right.
The lift is different.
Just not one is heavier,
(30:50):
just different.
You're right.
I appreciate you correcting me there.
Thank you.
No worries.
And I don't mean to correct.
I just mean,
you know what I mean?
Like you're right,
you're absolutely right.
So,
yeah,
so thank you to everyone who is doing that work.
Like I can't imagine,
I,
I am so incensed and like angry on your behalf right now of all of the God,
(31:15):
just the,
the ungratefulness.
I think it's the biggest thing,
right?
Where not long ago y'all were heroes,
right?
For working through COVID to educate everybody.
And now I'm not even gonna like share the words that are being used.
Yeah,
I mean,
I,
I want to make sure that we have time to talk about your most recent work and what you're doing.
(31:41):
But I also think this conversation's incredibly important and quite frankly,
it's the reason this podcast exists.
You know,
I,
I am a retired as a teacher and a librarian.
I'm also a white straight heterosexual woman.
And so I'm not at the center of this fight nor do I bear the brunt of the hate and vitriol that is a consequence of frankly the propaganda that is being spread right now that,
(32:19):
you know,
we could go on about this,
but that really has political motivations more than anything else.
So,
but I do feel a responsibility or maybe not.
But,
and because of that,
I feel a responsibility to use whatever platform I have to provide a,
a way to amplify what I think are the more truthful narratives around children's letter,
(32:44):
the people who create children's literature and the people who put children's literature in the hands of young folks.
So that's really what this work is all about.
And I'm so grateful to people like you who agree to chat with me about it.
But who also continue to persevere and create those books in the face of what I imagine must also be challenging in terms of the editorial conversations you're having because I am sure publishers are,
(33:10):
you know,
afraid,
fearful right now and are trying to take a lighter hand when it comes to what books are being put out there in,
scared of what's going to sell and what isn't.
Um So I guess that's not so much a question just as a way for me to say,
thank you for continuing to persevere.
(33:31):
Um But I do wanna make an awkward transition here to what you're doing right now because I think that's important.
I wanna know about what you're working on today and uh what you've got coming up like what we can expect from my curra and what we can put on our preorder list,
what we can sign up for.
I want to know all of those things.
Well,
um I am very blessed uh that I,
(33:54):
I work with publishers who do support me who are not internally censoring my work.
So I'm working on two projects right now.
One is my first adult uh book.
And I,
yeah,
and I,
I think I'm seeing it here first.
I want everyone in the world to know that this book,
(34:15):
I,
I started working on this book long before all these book banning shenanigans started.
So I don't want anyone getting it twisted that I'm like running away from children's books because that is definitely not what is happening,
honey.
So anyway,
back to the tea.
I am working on an adult graphic novel called GNS.
(34:35):
Oh my gosh,
I take my money right now,
Mike,
I want it.
I want it right and I will send you done,
done and done.
Um So that is with Algonquin.
Um not my usual publisher since it's not children's right.
It will be out next summer,
(34:57):
summer 25 or a little bit before in time for pride.
That is what we're aiming for.
I'll just say it's,
it's a story of four friends who call themselves the Boy L Club and it's all about existing as a gay Asian American,
you know,
in this,
in this country.
Uh it's also a,
(35:19):
a period piece,
air quotes.
Um,
it takes place in the early two thousands which like,
oh my go historical fiction.
I know it's historic,
it's hysterical fiction.
I would hope.
Um So,
yeah,
it's gay.
I,
I don't know if you got that.
I was wondering,
(35:40):
I,
I sort of got the feeling but I wasn't sure.
Thank you for clarifying and,
and I'll say,
you know,
if you,
if you wanna fight a book banner,
definitely buy this book because they will be collecting their pearls Mary.
I cannot,
we was,
it was so fun to work on an adult book where I didn't have to worry about,
(36:03):
you know,
anything.
I just kind of was free to do whatever.
It's about a group of friends in their,
you know,
their twenties and the oldest is like 30.
So uh just a different,
a different genre for me and I'm having a lot of fun doing it.
I'm also very tired of working on it.
I'm trying to finish it this summer because then the next project that I'm gonna illustrate is something I've already written.
(36:28):
I've co-authored a book called Pals and I've co-authored it with my friend Laura Robbins,
uh who is the person I dedicated Flamer to who is my real life Violet if you've read player.
So this is the story of uh two friends who are pen pals.
(36:48):
And it's very much based on our pen pal friendship when we were kids and it's a middle grade graphic novel.
So we're still still doing kid lit.
This will be my first uh middle grade book,
which is exciting.
Oh,
these are,
I love,
I'm so excited about every project that you're sharing that.
(37:10):
I mean,
they both feel number one timely and important.
Number two,
joyful,
like full of joy and um and also just like,
I don't know,
necessary in our world right now.
I feel like the world needs more Mike Curra.
Oh,
good because um you know,
(37:31):
I still need a paycheck.
So I'm glad I really want to go back to corporate America.
Thank you.
No,
no.
And I mean,
you know,
I'm biased because I'm,
you know,
running for president of the Mike You fan club.
But I,
you know,
yeah,
I'll announce my candidacy right now.
(37:51):
Um,
but I'm delighted by the idea that kids get to have you in their reading lives at all ages now because you've done so many picture books now.
You've got a middle grade coming out.
You've got y a,
an adult.
I mean,
like there are kids who will carry Mike Curado with them throughout their entire life and that just makes me so,
(38:17):
so happy.
That's pretty cool when you put it that way.
Yeah,
and I do,
I,
I miss picture books so I,
I am working on some manuscripts right now.
Um,
but there's nothing,
nothing sold yet,
but in the meantime,
how do you,
um,
get to ever do work where you're like working with other illustrators or people who want to do illustration,
(38:40):
that kind of thing.
Uh,
well,
I'm glad you asked because this summer I'm actually teaching a workshop.
It's the second time I'm teaching it.
So it's gonna be even better than last year.
I'm doing a summer workshop at the fine arts work center in beautiful Provincetown Massachusetts.
Um,
(39:00):
it's June 23rd to 28 and it's called Visual Alchemy.
And the building blocks,
a picture book illustration which is a fancy way of saying that I'm gonna be teaching,
you know,
everything I know about illustrating a picture book.
So we're gonna discuss fundamentals like harnessing elements like composition,
like color,
(39:21):
character design and layout uh to elicit emotion and create a compelling visual narrative.
And I'm gonna do a little picture book history review and we do fun like in class exercises and critiques every day and,
and portfolio reviews.
(39:41):
And I'll also mention fine arts work center is doing a new like tiered tuition system this year.
And if you are a working teacher,
there's like a really incredible discount.
So,
yeah,
if you go to Fa wc.org,
um you can get all the details.
Well,
I will put a link in the show notes for this show so that listeners who are interested can sign up to take a week's worth of learning with my Curado.
(40:11):
Oh,
my gosh.
I want to sign up.
It sounds amazing.
And yes,
I mean,
I don't know,
we'd get anything done.
It would just be hilarious the whole week,
but I'll also put links to Mike's books in the show notes and to your website so that people can find you and keep reading all of your great books while we wait for the new ones to come out.
(40:36):
Thank you so much for doing this today.
Thank you so much for having me,
Jennifer.
It's always a joy to talk with you.
I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast.
It's been a blast and I'll just say that I hope that when your new books come out,
we can schedule another time for you to chat about them.
Sounds great.
(41:08):
Thank you so much for tuning in to the reader's heart.
More information about this episode,
including ways to connect with Mike as well as a discount code for purchasing his books through book Alicious are available at Library girl.net.
This podcast was created written and recorded by me Jennifer Lagarde.
All rights reserved.
Our theme music was created by com media and is available for free at Pixie Bay's royalty free music compositor.
(41:32):
And the beautiful illustration for our show was created by Karina Lukin.
If you enjoy this podcast,
I hope you'll leave us a five star review at wherever you listen to podcasts,
believe it or not.
This small step makes a big difference in helping the reader's heart find its audience,
speaking of which don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll see you next time and until then happy reading y'all.
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