March 2, 2023 • 45 mins
In this episode, we talk with Emily Russo about talent management, and how interruptions in workplace culture are facilitating an increasingly neurodiverse workforce. Join us as we dig into job crafting, the pros and cons of self-disclosure, and the critical importance of workplace conversations, managing strengths, and training in neurodiversity for managers and team members. Emily does research in the areas of talent management, neurodiverse talent, organizational gender diversity and talent in multinational corporations. She brings to this work a wealth of academic and practical experience: a Masters in International Management from Columbia University and a Ph.D. in International Business Strategy from University of Queensland Business School, as well as service as a Director at CEO Forum Group, and work at KPMG Consulting in both Australia and in the USA. She also serves on the Board of Autism Spectrum Australia (Aspect).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
The power dynamic has changed.
It's not just that an organization takes an employee and says,
OK,
go to work,
do what you need to do.
Actually,
they have responsibility to ensure that person can do their job well and be productive.
Hi! Welcome to We Interrupt This Podcast.
I am Laure Haak, your host.
(00:26):
In this episode, we talk with Emily Russo about talent management and how interruptions in workplace culture are facilitating an increasingly neurodiverse workforce.
Join us as we dig into job crafting, the pros and cons of self disclosure, and the critical importance of workplace conversations,
managing strengths, and training in neurodiversity for managers and team members.
(00:49):
Emily does research in the areas of talent management,
neurodiverse talent,
organizational gender diversity, and talent in multinational corporations.
She brings to this work a wealth of academic and practical experience:
a Masters in International Management from Columbia University, and a PhD in International Business Strategy from the University of Queensland Business School,
(01:10):
as well as service as a Director at CEO Forum Group and work at KPMG consulting in both Australia and the US.
She also serves on the board of Autism Spectrum Australia.
(01:36):
To me interruption means a pause in the flow of things.
I think it can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation and the nature of the interruption.
And also perhaps in the form that the interruption takes.
In the workplace, the push for a more inclusive environment has been what I would consider a positive interruption to the business as usual model.
(01:57):
Businesses have experienced pressure from workers,
customers, and society to be more inclusive and more reflective of the communities in which we all live.
But these businesses have also experienced pressure to be competitive,
to financially perform, and to access the best talent in the market to enable them to achieve this.
We've probably all heard the phrase "war for talent".
(02:19):
While this war was an interruption,
firms were finding that they couldn't get the talent
they needed to gain a competitive advantage.
So this really led to a major rethink about what talent actually was and how organizations could best attract,
develop, and retain the talent they needed.
Thus, businesses started to realize that they had to broaden their understanding of talent and to seek out individuals who had previously been excluded from the workforce.
(02:44):
They started to realize that some of these individuals actually had amazing skill sets the organizations really needed.
And it's projected that by 2026 organizations will spend a staggering 15.4 billion globally on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.
So they're really heavily investing in such an approach.
What is talent management and how did you come into this area,
(03:06):
both of research and practice.
My early background was actually in the area of international economics and business.
And after working for one of the big four consulting firms in a number of countries,
I moved to a more boutique firm that focused on human resources in multinationals. That really kick-started my interest in workforce issues and particularly talent management,
(03:28):
which was so important to the success of organizations.
So talent management is really about how organizations manage employees that they consider to be high performing and high potential.
So I decided to go back and get my PhD, researching global talent management in multinationals.
And it was really while completing my PhD that I noticed articles in the media that highlighted that firms were starting to implement what they were calling neurodiverse initiatives, where they were actively seeking to employ neurodivergent individuals.
(03:57):
And as a family member of mine is on the autism spectrum,
this really grabbed my attention, and I decided once I finish my PhD,
I would also start researching in the area of neurodiverse talent.
I'm currently an industry fellow at the University of Queensland Business School in Australia,
although I'm actually based in Melbourne -- and you have to really love the new norm of remote work.
I'm also on the Board of Autism Spectrum Australia,
(04:19):
which is known as ASPECT,
which is Australia's largest provider of autism specific services.
And we actually run one of the largest autism specific school programs in the world.
We also provide employment therapy,
diagnostic day services, and engage in research.
The current percentage of our workforce that is autistic is around 3.4%, which considering 1.4% of the general population is on the autism spectrum,
(04:45):
that's something I'm really proud of.
And our goal is to increase this number.
So I guess you can say,
talent management and neurodiverse talent in particular is a topic that I'm really passionate about, in a research professional and also personal sense.
I want to make sure that the folks that are listening in understand what we're talking about.
What is neurodiversity and how do you define that?
(05:08):
And what would be included in this spectrum of neurodiversity?
Neurodiversity is the idea that humans don't come in a one size fits all neurological package, and that these neurological differences are the result of normal variations to the human genome.
So there are a number of conditions that come under that umbrella of neurodivergence and they can be quite varied and characteristic.
(05:31):
One of them autism which affects how a person thinks feels and interacts with others in their environment.
There's also ADHD which is most commonly associated with hyperactivity or intense attention or difficulty in focusing attention.
There's dyscalculia which is a difficulty with numbers;
dyslexia which can affect reading and spelling; dyspraxia which can affect fine and gross motor coordination and sometimes even speech;
(05:57):
Tourettes, which is characterized by involuntary sounds and movements.
And there are other variations too, such as obsessive compulsive disorder, and some people with brain injuries even identify as being neurodivergent.
So this whole movement was started actually by an Australian sociologist in the 1990s.
It's really centered around what we call a positive strength based approach.
(06:18):
I just mentioned some of the challenges that individuals with various conditions face,
but there are also corresponding strengths that they can have.
For example, autistic people can be methodical focused,
logical, and have intense concentration skills.
People with dyslexia can have highly developed reasoning skills and can be great at problem solving.
(06:38):
People with ADHD can be highly creative and think outside the box.
The neurodiversity movement considers these natural neurological variations to be part of a person's identity and not something that needs to be fixed.
And it also argues that as these differences are merely variations, that all individuals should be treated equally.
I think it's important to highlight that there's really great variation within this neurodivergent cohort.
(07:03):
Each individual's conditions can vary depending on the severity of the condition.
There can be those who may be nonverbal and need full time care, and there are others who might be highly gifted in say complex mathematics and may be be able to undertake incredibly challenging work.
These conditions are sometimes referred to as invisible disabilities.
You might have heard that term because they can be difficult to recognize.
(07:25):
But this kind of brings up one of the debates within the community, because not everyone with a diagnosed condition is comfortable identifying with having a disability, due to the stigmatization that can be associated with that kind of language.
But then in contrast,
some disability advocates fear the neurodiversity movement overshadows the really significant challenges faced by individuals with more severe cognitive difficulties.
(07:49):
It's really important to recognize these different perspectives around the movement.
It's estimated that around 15 to 20% of the population is neurodivergent,
but it is hard to get exact numbers because not everyone receives a formal diagnosis due to the high costs involved and and the lack of access to diagnostic services.
There's also inconsistent definitions of the condition that are used globally. And to further complicate things,
(08:13):
some individuals may have what we call co-occurring conditions.
So they might have both dyslexia and ADHD.
There's co-occurrence and there is intersectionality as well.
And so, for example,
with autism,
so much of the initial diagnosis focused on young boys.
So then a lot of the the people who aren't young, white boys aren't getting diagnosed.
(08:34):
One of my questions with the diagnoses and how someone presents is, when you're recruiting,
are you asking people to self report their neural status as they're coming through the interview process?
There's so much inability to develop any level of trust when you're just going into an interview.
(08:57):
In the talent management space, how are you currently thinking about creating spaces where more people can participate in the interview process without necessarily having to self disclose?
Well, look, you bring up a lot of interesting points.
Certainly in terms of the whole diagnostic issue,
it currently is very Western-orientated and very male-orientated.
(09:19):
So what we're finding is,
as you mentioned,
it's a lot of young boys who are being diagnosed.
Often neurodiversities present slightly differently in girls as to what they do in boys.
So those girls are being missed.
We also know that girls are much better at what we call masking.
That's where they suppress who they really are and their natural inclinations to better fit in with society.
(09:39):
So there is that whole issue of diagnostic services, but a lot of organizations are rethinking that,
and certainly at ASPECT, that's something that we're addressing in terms of needing to disclose.
A significant hurdle in all of this is the fact that employees or potential employees would need to disclose a condition to an employer.
(10:00):
However, we know that that disclosure of neurodiversity is rarely made due to the fear of stigmatization, and recognition by an employer can be difficult without that.
T o encourage disclosure, organizations really need to ensure that they're creating an inclusive culture so that these employees feel confident disclosing their diagnosis.
But I think more importantly than that, candidates and employees should be able to ask for support or accommodations without having to explicitly state a diagnosis.
(10:26):
I was listening to a podcast a while ago where they were talking about asking people after the hiring process,
what are the workplace tools that you need to function at your top?
What do you need to do your job well?
Some people then could ask for remote work or hybrid work or they could ask for certain kinds of tooling,
a special chair,
they could ask for quiet time, headphones,
(10:48):
all these other things were presented on an equal basis in a checklist and you could check off what you needed to do your job.
I really like that.
To your point,
I think a lot of people who are on this neurodivergent spectrum may or may not,
a lot of them don't have a diagnosis.
(11:08):
A lot of them have self diagnosed, or maybe there are many of us who are maybe not realizing until a well on into adulthood that,
oh,
that's why I act in this way.
How do you ask for accommodation if you don't necessarily know that this is what you need to be asking for?
I'm curious in your work in talent management,
(11:29):
how are you seeing organizations changing the way they do,
let's say interviews,
just that first step.
There is great opportunity for businesses to actually capitalize on this segment of the candidate market that has been excluded from the workforce for so long.
Globally, it's estimated that the numbers could be as high as 85% when you take into account the unemployment and underemployment of all neurodiverse people.
(11:56):
By underemployment, we mean people who are working in jobs that don't allow them to use their skills and abilities to their full potential.
Think of someone with a Masters degree sweeping floors.
There's a lot of people out there with great skills who want to work.
The first thing to recognize is that traditional HR practices are not designed with the neurodiverse candidate in mind.
Organizations can do a number of different things,
(12:19):
but they really need to be done at every stage of employment.
You asked specifically about that attraction and recruitment stage.
One thing is to really carefully construct the job ad to avoid misinterpretation.
We see a lot of job ads where there's a detailed long list of mandatory designed attributes.
But if we simply listed the task that a successful candidate would need to be able to form in the role, that would potentially be a better result.
(12:44):
For example,
autistic people often make very literal interpretations, and they might only apply for a job if they meet every single one of those listed criteria.
The other thing to consider is nontraditional platforms, such as Instagram, in terms of advertising,
which is more visual that might appeal to those people who are more creative.
IIf relevant, offering flexible job application formats,
(13:06):
whether it be video, artwork,
as well as written applications.
I guess, at all stages of recruitment,
providing candidates with as much information as possible.
So, providing details on questions that might be asked in the interview,
even who'll be in the meeting,
what the room will be like,
how to access the building,
where facilities are.
All these things can actually be really helpful.
(13:28):
If a candidate does disclose they're neurodivergent,
then ask them ahead of the meeting
if any reasonable adjustments can be made to accommodate them.
During the interview, it's really important to be flexible.
Avoid asking multiple questions at once,
allow candidates to take notes into the interview, and potentially defer answering questions until later in the interview, if they wish.
Employers should also be open to using other means of assessing candidates, apart from only the formal interview.
(13:53):
Traditionally, neurodivergent individuals don't do well in formal interviews.
They're all based around being able to connect with the interviewer,
making good eye contact, and effectively communicating their skills.
Some neurodivergent candidates say they would actually prefer to be able to show in a practical sense what they can do, rather than tell an employer what they can do.
(14:16):
One other thing is, organizations are now offering what we call skill-based assessments.
So they're doing things like having informal conversations,
doing group activities,
presentations,
work trials, and even other sorts of practical assessments that can really be more effective in understanding a candidate's capabilities.
I'm gonna go sideways just for a second, because I wanna make sure,
(14:38):
I mean, the words that we use to describe neurodiversity,
there's so much evolution right now in the terminology.
I'm throwing around two different words and I want to get your take on what should we be using?
So there's neurodiversity and there's neurodivergence and there's neurotypical.
So help me understand what,
what do those different words mean?
(14:58):
And what's the parlance that is most commonly accepted or,
or encouraged right now?
So, neurodivergent is an individual whose neurological condition is considered atypical.
For example,
someone with autism,
someone with ADHD.
A neurotypical person is an individual whose neurological configuration is what we call typical.
(15:20):
When we have people with different neurological configurations,
we call that neurodiversity.
Got it.
OK.
All three of those terms fit together.
Yeah,
but look,
I think that we have to recognize that language is really, really important.
And there can be stigmatization associated with much of the language in this space.
And many people have really, really strong feelings about this.
(15:42):
Research tells us that we need more ethical language and new ways of thinking about and describing people who are different.
You're probably aware of the debate about the person first or the identity first language.
Do we say a person with autism or a person with dyslexia or do we say an autistic person or a dyslexic person.
Some people have very strong feelings about which one they prefer.
(16:04):
And I think the best advice is to ask the individual what language they prefer,
and to recognize that people have different perspectives and just be respectful of this.
Your career really is about interrupting how companies think and do talent management,
which I think is awesome.
I think this is just a really neat way to think about interrupting, instead of the 9 to 5 standard job in the queue,
(16:28):
it's, what the other ways that we can think about developing a work environment that brings together the people that are needed to get the job done.
What are the critical talent management factors that you have found in your research?
What is it that we need to be paying attention to?
There's a couple of things.
Obviously, when the outcome of an interruption is good,
(16:50):
it's a positive force.
But I think the process needs to be positive for those involved as well.
If we perhaps use diversity initiatives as a bit of an example,
if the outcome is more diversity in the workplace,
then most people would say that's a positive.
But we could be judging this a bit superficially.
There really is no benefit in organizations hiring a diverse workforce if there are no support mechanisms in place to ensure success.
(17:14):
So diverse employees could enter the workforce and face unconscious bias or stigmatization that would inhibit their ability to perform well.
They may not have the support they need to be able to perform.
And if these are not in place,
then it will be a negative experience for both the organization and the employee, and will probably result in low productivity and high turnover.
(17:35):
Both of which have huge costs to the firm and the individual.
The actual process of the interruption needs to be positive too.
In this case, organizations need to ensure that managers and employees are trained in supporting diversity in the workplace, so that when those diverse employees enter the workforce,
they're supported and encouraged,
managers will feel confident as they will know what they need to do to support these workers,
(17:58):
and the employees will have a positive experience as they're adequately supported and they will likely thrive in the environment and be productive.
So this is a win-win situation for the organization and the employee.
This is what I would consider a positive interruption.
The process needs to be positive.
So the outcome can be positive and long lasting.
And in terms of my general talent management research,
(18:20):
a lot of it is focused on the relationship between what I've termed talent management, philosophies, and practices,
and the resulting performance outcomes.
My research found that, of the firms that were in some of my studies, there were five different philosophies, or, if you like, unique ways that firms thought about talent management.
And this resulted in different talent management practices and consequently had different performance outcomes in terms of the retention of talent.
(18:47):
Two of the five different approaches resulted in much better outcomes in terms of retaining talent.
One was all about managing relationships through conversations.
It very much focused on the belief that regular open conversations between talented individuals and their managers was the best way to maintain that talent-firm relationship,
and that the interests of the organization and of the individual needed to be balanced.
(19:11):
The other approach that performed very well was all about managing the strengths of talent.
So a belief that playing to the strengths of the firm's talent is optimal.
The whole point was to encourage people to use their strengths rather than focusing on correcting any weaknesses.
Compensation obviously is important to retention.
But interestingly,
the philosophy that was purely focused on compensation actually performed the worst in terms of talent retention,
(19:37):
suggesting that firms actually need to do a whole lot more than just get salary right.
So these findings really led me to think more about the importance of communication and people being encouraged to use their strengths in the workforce,
and that it's perhaps more important to look at what people can do well and encouraging them to do those things, rather than worrying about what they can't do.
(19:58):
And this has obviously really influenced my work in neurodiversity which centers around this positive strength based approach.
One of the things is this idea of -- and you're talking here about conversations and playing to strengths -- is this idea of participatory leadership, where it's not just the manager saying you to do this,
like you say,
it's a conversation you're participating together and essentially job crafting, saying here's what I bring.
(20:25):
So the interview is almost like an expose of here's what I can bring to you,
and then working together with the manager and the other employees on how can you bring that forth.
I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about job crafting and your experience with that participatory framework for creating hospitable work environments.
(20:47):
You're exactly right.
I think job crafting can be an incredibly beneficial tool,
but managers do need to be trained as well.
So perhaps just to give a bit of an overview of job crafting.
Really, this is something where both an employer and employee work together to agree on the position description, and it involves either adding or removing tasks to suit the strengths or weaknesses of the incumbent.
(21:10):
So to give you a bit of an example of what this could look like,
an autistic newspaper reporter might have really strong writing skills,
but they find social interaction difficult.
So they could be tasked with only writing articles and not be required to conduct interviews.
In terms of training, really other staff in the organization need training too. Things like unconscious bias training for staff,
(21:31):
and also training in specific neurodiversities that provide accurate information and dispel myths so that individuals can better understand and support their neurodivergent colleagues.
You mentioned the fact that the managers might have no prior experience working or interacting with someone who is neurodivergent.
So they really need to be upskilled to effectively support their neurodivergent colleagues.
(21:56):
Do you have a story from an employee and a manager who have gone through this,
that can illustrate how wonderful this is and how transformational it can be, to be a little bit more creative and participatory about how we create environments or create job descriptions?
I guess if I'm sort of thinking of one particular example,
(22:17):
which is really about career progression, and it was in a professional services firm.
So traditionally,
in a lot of those firms,
you start out as a consultant and as you move your way up the hierarchy rather than doing so much of the work,
you tend to do a lot more business development,
client relationship management type work.
Some neurodivergent individuals perform really well in doing that.
(22:38):
Others find it a bit more challenging.
This manager and individual found a way where this this neurodivergent employee could keep progressing without having to take on those kind of roles which they found challenging.
So they were able to focus on being the subject matter expert that they really wanted to be,
but rather than their career halting at that level and then not moving up, they were given some flexibility to be able to focus on what they did well.
(23:03):
Thank you for that.
That's really helpful.
What is it about a company or their DEI initiative or their talent management, that allows that company to move into or to change and adapt how it has typically or has previously done talent management into this new approach?
What are those success factors that you've seen?
(23:27):
Certainly you need,
I would suggest a neurodiversity champion within the organization.
So it needs to come from leadership at the top and it needs to be permeated throughout the organization.
Part of that is a champion,
someone who's promoting it within the organization.
But then there needs to be that ongoing training, and I guess just awareness within the organization of what neurodiversity is, so that it's well supported in the organization.
(23:54):
There's intersectionality in so many different planes.
And you know,
DEI is about neurodiversity.
It's also about racial and ethnic diversity.
It's about age --
all kinds of ways that you can understand DEI. And so I'm wondering what you have seen in terms of the intersections in your work with talent management.
(24:17):
Focusing on the neurodiversity aspect, have you seen this also help firms with overall diversity of their workforce?
Hopefully we all know that diversity is a good thing in organizations and it's the right thing to do.
I think it's really important to realize that there are social benefits.
Everyone deserves the opportunity for meaningful work,
which is so important to a person's well being.
(24:39):
And it also has flow on effects such as reducing unemployment and increasing productivity.
But really,
we're starting to learn that it's a smart thing to do.
We're probably all aware of the benefits of greater diversity generally in the workplace.
So whether we're talking about gender or cultural and linguistic diversity or neurodiversity,
whatever it might be,
we know that that drives innovation,
(25:00):
it makes for a better work environment,
it's more successful and productive,
creates a more attractive environment for higher performers.
And so by including these people,
it offers firms
a larger pool of candidates for organizations to choose from and therefore they end up with a better candidate.
A lot of these individuals can be well suited to various industries.
They can have great attention to detail.
(25:22):
Neurodivergent people can be methodical,
logical,
good at pattern recognition,
mathematics, problem solving,
which can all be useful in the science and it fields.
But I think also it's not just all about tech. Neurodivergent individuals can have specialist skills that are relevant to other areas too.
One thing that we've talked about,
we're seeing a lot more neurodivergent characters in the media.
So,
(25:42):
you know,
think Big Bang Theory,
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
You mentioned Extraordinary Attorney Woo, who I'm just learning about. I think it's great to see some of these characters now actually being played by neurodivergent actors as well.
Neurodivergent individuals can also be highly creative,
they can be imaginative.
They can have excellent visual skills and they can really excel in the arts and creative endeavors as well. So it's not just all about tech.
(26:04):
DEI initiatives could have all the pieces that you talked about and yet they fail,
these initiatives fail.
And I think part of that is what you're talking about.
There wasn't training for the managers,
there wasn't training for the other people in the workplace.
There weren't appropriate accommodations put in place.
(26:27):
The conversations didn't happen.
But I think one of the other things is, how do you measure, and do you measure, and what do you measure to actually show that your DEI initiative is having any impact?
One of the things you mentioned, that it's always so hard to measure, is,
is the person who is being hired actually able to be productive in this environment they've been hired into.
(26:56):
Can you talk a bit about, in your consulting work and in your research,
what are the things that we need to be paying attention to as we build a and deploy these DEI initiatives?
What should we be measuring?
And how can we actually make sure that folks that are being brought into these environments actually have a sense of well being and don't feel the need to mask and become exhausted and overwhelmed.
(27:22):
How do we understand that?
I think there's probably a couple of things.
One is when,
for example,
a neurodivergent person enters the organization, is it providing them with the support.
So we talked about managers needing to be upskilled,
but also providing them perhaps with a buddy or a mentor.
A buddy can be really helpful in terms of communicating to them what the social norms of the organization are, answering any questions,
(27:48):
being a bit of a social support to them.
But then we need to be constantly checking in with these individuals and understanding other things that we can do differently.
What's working,
what's not working,
reassessing.
Ultimately, if the person stays in the organization,
if the organization retains them and they're productive,
then that's a positive outcome.
(28:09):
That's what we're looking for.
If we lose the person, or they're not productive,
then clearly that shows that we're doing something wrong and,
and changes need to be made.
It's about the individual who's been hired.
It's also about the other individuals they're working with, and the relationship between these individuals and the team manager and,
and the other folks in the organization.
(28:31):
I think it is all about the culture.
It's about establishing an inclusive culture where people feel that they could authentically be themselves and they can ask for any kind of supports or accommodations without feeling the need to disclose why they might need those.
It's also about taking everyone along on the journey with you.
Again,
it comes back to education within the organization.
(28:53):
So educating not just managers but peers and all of those in the organization about the importance of these kind of initiatives.
What kind of -- are there any numbers out there?
Is there any research that's already available that that talks about increases in,
in the willingness to hire neurodivergent individuals?
A better understanding of the kinds of supports that neurodivergent individuals might need?
(29:17):
And I think --
I ask questions in threes --
I apologize.
It's like there's the support,
there's the hiring,
but there's also the benefits that having these kinds of more flexible work environments may have, not just for the neurodivergent individuals,
but along the spectrum of of neurodiversity.
Typically neurodivergent individuals face a number of challenges in the workplace, and these can be grouped into two different things.
(29:42):
So what we call interpersonal challenges,
so challenges with communication and in social interaction.
So sometimes social situations can seem challenging and confusing.
Communication can be misinterpreted and nuances missed.
So certainly the work-from-home environment has eased some of those social challenges because individuals don't go have to go into the the office necessarily.
(30:02):
A lot of communication is done via written form,
whether it's via email or whatever it might be.
People are doing still a lot of zoom calls.
And again,
you know,
sometimes we don't pick up on the subtleties in zoom calls.
But on the whole,
generally,
that's eased some pressures.
Neurodivergent employees can also face what we call environmental challenges.
(30:23):
And so creating the right work environment is really equally critical.
Many neurodivergent people can have sensory processing issues so they can be sensitive to lights,
sounds,
smells,
textures.
So again,
allowing them to work from home has enabled them to control their own environment around them.
So they can have the light exactly how they want it.
(30:45):
They can have the sound how they want it.
They can be sitting in clothes that make them feel comfortable.
Definitely,
I think the the working from home phenomena has opened up the door to neurodivergent individuals feeling a bit more comfortable,
but there are still challenges there.
So we've talked about remote wor,k
flexible work, dress code.
You mentioned the interview process.
One of the things I was always taught to do is to shake their hand. And this seems so innocuous, but it isn't!
(31:11):
Just the act of touching somebody else
can be so triggering to any number of people. And irrespective of neurodiversity,
it's culturally inappropriate in several countries.
So I'm wondering, what are some other things that those of us in Western cultures do as a matter of course,
that are triggering to a neurodivergent individual.
(31:37):
One thing is looking people in the eye.
In Western cultures, we're taught to look someone in the eye when you speak to them,
make eye contact. That's a really important polite thing to do. In other cultures that can be seen actually as a really disrespectful thing to do.
Neurodivergent individuals, some of them have difficulty with eye contact.
When they're entering the workforce,
(31:57):
when they're not making eye contact,
people perceive that as being rude. In other cultures that's considered OK.
So you're right,
there are a lot of different cultural norms that
I think we need to be aware of when we're dealing with people,
whether they're neurodivergent or from another country.
It's a tricky thing.
But again,
I think it comes back to the language.
It's about asking people,
are you comfortable with this, and just respecting their decision.
And sometimes even knowing to ask. I think this is where that training comes into play, is (32:22):
how do we interact with,
how do we understand what some triggers might be, and then open up the possibility to have the conversation.
Even when we started this,
how do you pronounce your name?
A lot of those things come up in the workplace.
I can't tell you how long
(32:43):
people mispronounce my name, because no one ever asks. And that drives me crazy.
But anyway,
so those triggers, recognizing that triggers exist, and that somebody is not being a special snowflake,
this can be actually just screamingly awful for somebody to have this trigger, this episode happen in the workplace
and make it really difficult for them to not just produce but to come back.
(33:07):
Can we go back a little bit to masking?
And if you could explain a little bit more,
what is masking and why is it bad?
So masking is where somebody is not able to be their authentic self.
To fit into an environment, they need to change things about themselves, how they naturally respond so that they're not seen as being unusual, or difficult, or outside the norm.
Often people with autism may mask to fit into the environment they're in, rather than sort of feeling like they can make particular expressions with their face or respond in certain ways,
(33:45):
they suppress that and they respond how they see others responding.
That can actually be really detrimental to a person's well being.
If you think about it,
if you're constantly not able to respond how you naturally want to,
if you're constantly thinking,
no,
suppress that response, respond in a way that others are responding,
that can actually be negative to a person's health and well being.
(34:06):
One of the things that I was reading about was this idea of mirroring,
where an autistic person might spend a huge amount of their time and effort looking at how other people are acting and trying to mirror how those interactions are working.
There was a study in neurotypicals, how much effort people spend doing the mirroring that is then effort taken away from participating,
(34:29):
contributing,
being creative.
I think it's so important for people to understand why masking is bad.
You're trying to fit in,
but you're doing it in such a way that actually denies the ability to,
to be you,
but also to use your brain
the way it works.
So much of the work that has been done in autism is how do we get autistic kids to fit in?
(34:54):
How do we get the ADHD kids not to fidget
and trying to find ways, especially in workplaces,
where there are certain,
there have been these normative ways of being in the workplace.
You have to dress a certain way,
you have to sit in a desk,
you have da da da.
Trying to break that apart a little bit to allow for more flexibility in behaviors in the workplace.
(35:19):
What are you seeing about how to accommodate a wider range of behaviors?
Absolutely.
It's been said that the opposite of inclusion is fitting in.
So, an inclusive culture is where people can come in and be authentically themselves and be accepted and valued for who they authentically are.
(35:42):
So it's something that's very important and it's,
that's really the next stage.
I mean,
people talk about diversity in organizations, but really it's about inclusion,
because we want people to come in to work, to feel comfortable, to bring their authentic self, because then they will be productive and actually do a great job.
And that's what everyone wants.
They'll feel good about their work. Organizations will value what they do.
(36:03):
So,
in terms of creating those environments,
the sensory challenges we talked about,
some organizations are doing things where they're creating quiet spaces or quiet rooms where people can go.
So for an example,
an employee who I spoke to,
who had Tourette's Syndrome loved this idea because they felt they could go to that room and make as much noise and movement as they wanted to without disturbing their colleagues.
(36:29):
They needed to do that.
It allowed them to be authentically themselves.
They weren't disturbing anyone else.
So things like that.
We talked a bit about smell.
You'd be surprised how difficult it can be if you have an issue with smell and you're sitting close to the lunch room and people are heating up all different foods. That can be really triggering.
So allowing people flexibility to say,
well,
hey,
you know,
can I move my desk here?
(36:49):
Can I work from here or can I work from home?
Because it allows me to,
you know,
not have to deal with that kind of environment.
So things like noise canceling headphones,
if individuals find the working environment too noisy.
Just allowing them to do simple things like that can actually make the workplace so much more enjoyable and allow people to,
to bring their authentic self to work and not be worried about not fitting in and,
(37:11):
and not performing well.
For me, fitting in was so important. For so many kids, fitting in and not making waves,
it's kind of beaten into you during the educational process.
Have you seen your work on talent management be adapted into educational environments?
(37:33):
How can we create classrooms that are more respectful of the variety of,
of kids that come into those classrooms?
Actually,
a lot of the research on neurodiversity in organizations has come out of the education sector.
So certainly schools were onto this earlier than organizations because they were forced, if you like,
(37:58):
I mean,
everyone has to go to school, so they're forced to deal with kids who are different.
If I can talk a little bit about our schools and ASPECT. Our schools are all based on what we call the transition model.
It's generally agreed that kids will function best when they're in a mainstream schooling environment,
but some kids aren't there yet.
So, very much the focus of our schools is preparing them to transition into a mainstream environment.
(38:23):
There are some kids who may actually never make that transition,
but that really is the goal.
Ultimately, you want schools to be inclusive and supportive of all different kids.
A lot of schools,
certainly in Australia,
the focus is,
is more on being inclusive in schools and working out how schools can accommodate for those kids,
whether it's having a teacher's aide in the classroom,
(38:43):
kids can be on what we call individual learning plans where they have particular goals that they need to meet,
that the teachers support them.
So actually education has been leading the way really, and it's been organizations that have had to catch up.
Primary school, secondary school, universities have been supporting people with neurodiversities.
And now organizations need to be prepared to take on these people who are graduating and support them in the work environment.
(39:08):
I'm really hoping that what you've been doing and what others have been doing in this neurodiversity space somehow is,
is better understood and applied to actually make inclusivity real.
And again,
I'm asking this really broad question, but,
what do you see in that respect?
(39:28):
Do you see some of these initiatives on the neurodiversity realm having an impact on cultural, race,
ethnicity,
other ways of being? The intersectionality there?
Are you seeing that start to play out?
Absolutely.
And I think it all comes down to the fact that people should be able to ask for accommodations to perform their job well.
(39:50):
There are anti discrimination legislative requirements.
This is where there are legal protections for employees with disabilities which require employers to at a minimum,
not discriminate against,
but in some cases,
they have to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities. In the US, Ithink it comes under the Americans with Disability Act.
(40:13):
So when we say provide reasonable accommodations,
we actually mean by providing accommodations that ensure people can work safely.
But also productively.
People have a right to be able to be productive in the workforce.
And in the workplace, they have a right to ask for things that can help them to do that.
And employers are required under law to actually do that.
(40:35):
There's more awareness now, the power dynamic has changed,
it's not just that an organization takes an employee and says,
ok,
go to work,
do what you need to do.
Actually,
they have responsibility to ensure that person can do their job well and be productive. And it might mean that they need certain things to help them do that,
whether it's someone with a neurodiversity, or it's a parent with kids, or it's someone with an aging parent who needs additional care, or it's someone with a physical disability, or someone with cultural challenges,
(41:04):
whatever it might be,
we need to support those employees.
I think it really comes down to the fact that anyone should be able to ask for accommodations to do their job effectively.
In our conversations about interruption, a lot of them have been about conversational interruptions.
How do you have a interaction with another person and break that stream of thought or add on to it.
In many cases, people think about interruption as (41:27):
I'm talking and then you break in and take over.
One of the things I've been thinking through and trying to understand and through these series of conversations is, can we reframe interruption or understand other ways of interruption,
which is not just breaking in,
but it's like, in an orchestra when you have another musical line coming in and these two instruments can play together, and the two sections,
(41:52):
the orchestra can play together this beautiful harmony or counterpoint.
What I'm thinking about now is this idea that in a workplace,
we've had this one melody going on in many of these big multinational corporations,
which is,
this is the way we act,
we have handshakes,
we wear suits,
we come to work 9 to 5,
you know,
we go out to lunch. 00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:25,862 And what's happening is that melody is getting added onto, and a richness is being added into the workplace with all of these other kinds of ways of being in the workplace.
(42:25):
Ways of participating and contributing are now being added on to that melody,
which is in a beautiful way, in my head, of thinking about interruption on the one hand,
but there's also an interruption,
as you just said, of this power structure in the workplace that says this is the only way we can be and to be accepted,
(42:49):
you need to fit into this,
this culture,
right?
And we're expanding that as well.
So there's kind of this interruption of power in the standard way of interruption.
We're stopping this and we're starting something new.
But there's also an interruption in the form of creating this new or,
or adding melodies into this harmony.
So I love what you've been working on.
(43:11):
I love that you're also working in the multinational space.
And I just think it's really neat that this has been pushed up through the educational system into the workplaces,
to think about, OK,
we need to actually create a space so that we can do wonderful things.
That's just,
that's awesome.
So thank you for the work that you're doing.
(43:33):
It's great.
I want to end with a question about where,
where you think the next big questions are for you.
What are those open questions that you're investigating right now?
I think one of the biggest challenges is something I've touched on,
which is the issue of disclosure.
How do organizations and managers realize and identify who needs support and potentially who,
(43:58):
who doesn't.
I mean,
all the employees need some form of support but,
but what support is needed.
And so I guess it's really about how,
how do you build that inclusive culture where people feel confident that they're not gonna be stigmatized,
they're not gonna face discrimination to actually put their hand up and say,
hey,
these are the kind of things that I need in place to be able to do my job well.
(44:19):
For me,
that's one of the big challenges and something that I think we'll be grappling with for a little while yet still.
Yes,
there's a long road ahead.
Emily, thank you so much for joining us.
I look forward to more wonderful work coming from you
and again, thank you so much.
Thanks Laure.
I've really enjoyed our conversation.
(44:44):
Thank you for joining us today.
For more about this podcast,
please see our website at www.weinterruptthispodcast.com.
There we have show notes, links and other episodes.
You can also contact me on Twitter @HaakYak to recommend topics or speakers for the series.
I look forward to hearing from you.
(45:04):
This podcast was produced on the traditional lands and waters of the Menominee, Potawatomi and Ojibwe peoples.
I pay my respects to Elders past and present and to emerging and future Indigenous leaders.
It is a gift to be grounding and growing this work within these beautiful forests and waterways.
Thank you also to Emma Levinson for her Interruptions artwork featured on our website.
And to Alan Huckleberry for allowing us to use Bartok's Melody with Interruptions from the University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project.
The power dynamic has changed.
It's not just that an organization takes an employee and says,
OK,
go to work,
do what you need to do.
Actually,
they have responsibility to ensure that person can do their job well and be productive.
Hi! Welcome to We Interrupt This Podcast.
I am Laure Haak, your host.
(00:26):
In this episode, we talk with Emily Russo about talent management and how interruptions in workplace culture are facilitating an increasingly neurodiverse workforce.
Join us as we dig into job crafting, the pros and cons of self disclosure, and the critical importance of workplace conversations,
managing strengths, and training in neurodiversity for managers and team members.
(00:49):
Emily does research in the areas of talent management,
neurodiverse talent,
organizational gender diversity, and talent in multinational corporations.
She brings to this work a wealth of academic and practical experience:
a Masters in International Management from Columbia University, and a PhD in International Business Strategy from the University of Queensland Business School,
(01:10):
as well as service as a Director at CEO Forum Group and work at KPMG consulting in both Australia and the US.
She also serves on the board of Autism Spectrum Australia.
(01:36):
To me interruption means a pause in the flow of things.
I think it can be a positive or a negative, depending on the situation and the nature of the interruption.
And also perhaps in the form that the interruption takes.
In the workplace, the push for a more inclusive environment has been what I would consider a positive interruption to the business as usual model.
(01:57):
Businesses have experienced pressure from workers,
customers, and society to be more inclusive and more reflective of the communities in which we all live.
But these businesses have also experienced pressure to be competitive,
to financially perform, and to access the best talent in the market to enable them to achieve this.
We've probably all heard the phrase "war for talent".
(02:19):
While this war was an interruption,
firms were finding that they couldn't get the talent
they needed to gain a competitive advantage.
So this really led to a major rethink about what talent actually was and how organizations could best attract,
develop, and retain the talent they needed.
Thus, businesses started to realize that they had to broaden their understanding of talent and to seek out individuals who had previously been excluded from the workforce.
(02:44):
They started to realize that some of these individuals actually had amazing skill sets the organizations really needed.
And it's projected that by 2026 organizations will spend a staggering 15.4 billion globally on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.
So they're really heavily investing in such an approach.
What is talent management and how did you come into this area,
(03:06):
both of research and practice.
My early background was actually in the area of international economics and business.
And after working for one of the big four consulting firms in a number of countries,
I moved to a more boutique firm that focused on human resources in multinationals. That really kick-started my interest in workforce issues and particularly talent management,
(03:28):
which was so important to the success of organizations.
So talent management is really about how organizations manage employees that they consider to be high performing and high potential.
So I decided to go back and get my PhD, researching global talent management in multinationals.
And it was really while completing my PhD that I noticed articles in the media that highlighted that firms were starting to implement what they were calling neurodiverse initiatives, where they were actively seeking to employ neurodivergent individuals.
(03:57):
And as a family member of mine is on the autism spectrum,
this really grabbed my attention, and I decided once I finish my PhD,
I would also start researching in the area of neurodiverse talent.
I'm currently an industry fellow at the University of Queensland Business School in Australia,
although I'm actually based in Melbourne -- and you have to really love the new norm of remote work.
I'm also on the Board of Autism Spectrum Australia,
(04:19):
which is known as ASPECT,
which is Australia's largest provider of autism specific services.
And we actually run one of the largest autism specific school programs in the world.
We also provide employment therapy,
diagnostic day services, and engage in research.
The current percentage of our workforce that is autistic is around 3.4%, which considering 1.4% of the general population is on the autism spectrum,
(04:45):
that's something I'm really proud of.
And our goal is to increase this number.
So I guess you can say,
talent management and neurodiverse talent in particular is a topic that I'm really passionate about, in a research professional and also personal sense.
I want to make sure that the folks that are listening in understand what we're talking about.
What is neurodiversity and how do you define that?
(05:08):
And what would be included in this spectrum of neurodiversity?
Neurodiversity is the idea that humans don't come in a one size fits all neurological package, and that these neurological differences are the result of normal variations to the human genome.
So there are a number of conditions that come under that umbrella of neurodivergence and they can be quite varied and characteristic.
(05:31):
One of them autism which affects how a person thinks feels and interacts with others in their environment.
There's also ADHD which is most commonly associated with hyperactivity or intense attention or difficulty in focusing attention.
There's dyscalculia which is a difficulty with numbers;
dyslexia which can affect reading and spelling; dyspraxia which can affect fine and gross motor coordination and sometimes even speech;
(05:57):
Tourettes, which is characterized by involuntary sounds and movements.
And there are other variations too, such as obsessive compulsive disorder, and some people with brain injuries even identify as being neurodivergent.
So this whole movement was started actually by an Australian sociologist in the 1990s.
It's really centered around what we call a positive strength based approach.
(06:18):
I just mentioned some of the challenges that individuals with various conditions face,
but there are also corresponding strengths that they can have.
For example, autistic people can be methodical focused,
logical, and have intense concentration skills.
People with dyslexia can have highly developed reasoning skills and can be great at problem solving.
(06:38):
People with ADHD can be highly creative and think outside the box.
The neurodiversity movement considers these natural neurological variations to be part of a person's identity and not something that needs to be fixed.
And it also argues that as these differences are merely variations, that all individuals should be treated equally.
I think it's important to highlight that there's really great variation within this neurodivergent cohort.
(07:03):
Each individual's conditions can vary depending on the severity of the condition.
There can be those who may be nonverbal and need full time care, and there are others who might be highly gifted in say complex mathematics and may be be able to undertake incredibly challenging work.
These conditions are sometimes referred to as invisible disabilities.
You might have heard that term because they can be difficult to recognize.
(07:25):
But this kind of brings up one of the debates within the community, because not everyone with a diagnosed condition is comfortable identifying with having a disability, due to the stigmatization that can be associated with that kind of language.
But then in contrast,
some disability advocates fear the neurodiversity movement overshadows the really significant challenges faced by individuals with more severe cognitive difficulties.
(07:49):
It's really important to recognize these different perspectives around the movement.
It's estimated that around 15 to 20% of the population is neurodivergent,
but it is hard to get exact numbers because not everyone receives a formal diagnosis due to the high costs involved and and the lack of access to diagnostic services.
There's also inconsistent definitions of the condition that are used globally. And to further complicate things,
(08:13):
some individuals may have what we call co-occurring conditions.
So they might have both dyslexia and ADHD.
There's co-occurrence and there is intersectionality as well.
And so, for example,
with autism,
so much of the initial diagnosis focused on young boys.
So then a lot of the the people who aren't young, white boys aren't getting diagnosed.
(08:34):
One of my questions with the diagnoses and how someone presents is, when you're recruiting,
are you asking people to self report their neural status as they're coming through the interview process?
There's so much inability to develop any level of trust when you're just going into an interview.
(08:57):
In the talent management space, how are you currently thinking about creating spaces where more people can participate in the interview process without necessarily having to self disclose?
Well, look, you bring up a lot of interesting points.
Certainly in terms of the whole diagnostic issue,
it currently is very Western-orientated and very male-orientated.
(09:19):
So what we're finding is,
as you mentioned,
it's a lot of young boys who are being diagnosed.
Often neurodiversities present slightly differently in girls as to what they do in boys.
So those girls are being missed.
We also know that girls are much better at what we call masking.
That's where they suppress who they really are and their natural inclinations to better fit in with society.
(09:39):
So there is that whole issue of diagnostic services, but a lot of organizations are rethinking that,
and certainly at ASPECT, that's something that we're addressing in terms of needing to disclose.
A significant hurdle in all of this is the fact that employees or potential employees would need to disclose a condition to an employer.
(10:00):
However, we know that that disclosure of neurodiversity is rarely made due to the fear of stigmatization, and recognition by an employer can be difficult without that.
T o encourage disclosure, organizations really need to ensure that they're creating an inclusive culture so that these employees feel confident disclosing their diagnosis.
But I think more importantly than that, candidates and employees should be able to ask for support or accommodations without having to explicitly state a diagnosis.
(10:26):
I was listening to a podcast a while ago where they were talking about asking people after the hiring process,
what are the workplace tools that you need to function at your top?
What do you need to do your job well?
Some people then could ask for remote work or hybrid work or they could ask for certain kinds of tooling,
a special chair,
they could ask for quiet time, headphones,
(10:48):
all these other things were presented on an equal basis in a checklist and you could check off what you needed to do your job.
I really like that.
To your point,
I think a lot of people who are on this neurodivergent spectrum may or may not,
a lot of them don't have a diagnosis.
(11:08):
A lot of them have self diagnosed, or maybe there are many of us who are maybe not realizing until a well on into adulthood that,
oh,
that's why I act in this way.
How do you ask for accommodation if you don't necessarily know that this is what you need to be asking for?
I'm curious in your work in talent management,
(11:29):
how are you seeing organizations changing the way they do,
let's say interviews,
just that first step.
There is great opportunity for businesses to actually capitalize on this segment of the candidate market that has been excluded from the workforce for so long.
Globally, it's estimated that the numbers could be as high as 85% when you take into account the unemployment and underemployment of all neurodiverse people.
(11:56):
By underemployment, we mean people who are working in jobs that don't allow them to use their skills and abilities to their full potential.
Think of someone with a Masters degree sweeping floors.
There's a lot of people out there with great skills who want to work.
The first thing to recognize is that traditional HR practices are not designed with the neurodiverse candidate in mind.
Organizations can do a number of different things,
(12:19):
but they really need to be done at every stage of employment.
You asked specifically about that attraction and recruitment stage.
One thing is to really carefully construct the job ad to avoid misinterpretation.
We see a lot of job ads where there's a detailed long list of mandatory designed attributes.
But if we simply listed the task that a successful candidate would need to be able to form in the role, that would potentially be a better result.
(12:44):
For example,
autistic people often make very literal interpretations, and they might only apply for a job if they meet every single one of those listed criteria.
The other thing to consider is nontraditional platforms, such as Instagram, in terms of advertising,
which is more visual that might appeal to those people who are more creative.
IIf relevant, offering flexible job application formats,
(13:06):
whether it be video, artwork,
as well as written applications.
I guess, at all stages of recruitment,
providing candidates with as much information as possible.
So, providing details on questions that might be asked in the interview,
even who'll be in the meeting,
what the room will be like,
how to access the building,
where facilities are.
All these things can actually be really helpful.
(13:28):
If a candidate does disclose they're neurodivergent,
then ask them ahead of the meeting
if any reasonable adjustments can be made to accommodate them.
During the interview, it's really important to be flexible.
Avoid asking multiple questions at once,
allow candidates to take notes into the interview, and potentially defer answering questions until later in the interview, if they wish.
Employers should also be open to using other means of assessing candidates, apart from only the formal interview.
(13:53):
Traditionally, neurodivergent individuals don't do well in formal interviews.
They're all based around being able to connect with the interviewer,
making good eye contact, and effectively communicating their skills.
Some neurodivergent candidates say they would actually prefer to be able to show in a practical sense what they can do, rather than tell an employer what they can do.
(14:16):
One other thing is, organizations are now offering what we call skill-based assessments.
So they're doing things like having informal conversations,
doing group activities,
presentations,
work trials, and even other sorts of practical assessments that can really be more effective in understanding a candidate's capabilities.
I'm gonna go sideways just for a second, because I wanna make sure,
(14:38):
I mean, the words that we use to describe neurodiversity,
there's so much evolution right now in the terminology.
I'm throwing around two different words and I want to get your take on what should we be using?
So there's neurodiversity and there's neurodivergence and there's neurotypical.
So help me understand what,
what do those different words mean?
(14:58):
And what's the parlance that is most commonly accepted or,
or encouraged right now?
So, neurodivergent is an individual whose neurological condition is considered atypical.
For example,
someone with autism,
someone with ADHD.
A neurotypical person is an individual whose neurological configuration is what we call typical.
(15:20):
When we have people with different neurological configurations,
we call that neurodiversity.
Got it.
OK.
All three of those terms fit together.
Yeah,
but look,
I think that we have to recognize that language is really, really important.
And there can be stigmatization associated with much of the language in this space.
And many people have really, really strong feelings about this.
(15:42):
Research tells us that we need more ethical language and new ways of thinking about and describing people who are different.
You're probably aware of the debate about the person first or the identity first language.
Do we say a person with autism or a person with dyslexia or do we say an autistic person or a dyslexic person.
Some people have very strong feelings about which one they prefer.
(16:04):
And I think the best advice is to ask the individual what language they prefer,
and to recognize that people have different perspectives and just be respectful of this.
Your career really is about interrupting how companies think and do talent management,
which I think is awesome.
I think this is just a really neat way to think about interrupting, instead of the 9 to 5 standard job in the queue,
(16:28):
it's, what the other ways that we can think about developing a work environment that brings together the people that are needed to get the job done.
What are the critical talent management factors that you have found in your research?
What is it that we need to be paying attention to?
There's a couple of things.
Obviously, when the outcome of an interruption is good,
(16:50):
it's a positive force.
But I think the process needs to be positive for those involved as well.
If we perhaps use diversity initiatives as a bit of an example,
if the outcome is more diversity in the workplace,
then most people would say that's a positive.
But we could be judging this a bit superficially.
There really is no benefit in organizations hiring a diverse workforce if there are no support mechanisms in place to ensure success.
(17:14):
So diverse employees could enter the workforce and face unconscious bias or stigmatization that would inhibit their ability to perform well.
They may not have the support they need to be able to perform.
And if these are not in place,
then it will be a negative experience for both the organization and the employee, and will probably result in low productivity and high turnover.
(17:35):
Both of which have huge costs to the firm and the individual.
The actual process of the interruption needs to be positive too.
In this case, organizations need to ensure that managers and employees are trained in supporting diversity in the workplace, so that when those diverse employees enter the workforce,
they're supported and encouraged,
managers will feel confident as they will know what they need to do to support these workers,
(17:58):
and the employees will have a positive experience as they're adequately supported and they will likely thrive in the environment and be productive.
So this is a win-win situation for the organization and the employee.
This is what I would consider a positive interruption.
The process needs to be positive.
So the outcome can be positive and long lasting.
And in terms of my general talent management research,
(18:20):
a lot of it is focused on the relationship between what I've termed talent management, philosophies, and practices,
and the resulting performance outcomes.
My research found that, of the firms that were in some of my studies, there were five different philosophies, or, if you like, unique ways that firms thought about talent management.
And this resulted in different talent management practices and consequently had different performance outcomes in terms of the retention of talent.
(18:47):
Two of the five different approaches resulted in much better outcomes in terms of retaining talent.
One was all about managing relationships through conversations.
It very much focused on the belief that regular open conversations between talented individuals and their managers was the best way to maintain that talent-firm relationship,
and that the interests of the organization and of the individual needed to be balanced.
(19:11):
The other approach that performed very well was all about managing the strengths of talent.
So a belief that playing to the strengths of the firm's talent is optimal.
The whole point was to encourage people to use their strengths rather than focusing on correcting any weaknesses.
Compensation obviously is important to retention.
But interestingly,
the philosophy that was purely focused on compensation actually performed the worst in terms of talent retention,
(19:37):
suggesting that firms actually need to do a whole lot more than just get salary right.
So these findings really led me to think more about the importance of communication and people being encouraged to use their strengths in the workforce,
and that it's perhaps more important to look at what people can do well and encouraging them to do those things, rather than worrying about what they can't do.
(19:58):
And this has obviously really influenced my work in neurodiversity which centers around this positive strength based approach.
One of the things is this idea of -- and you're talking here about conversations and playing to strengths -- is this idea of participatory leadership, where it's not just the manager saying you to do this,
like you say,
it's a conversation you're participating together and essentially job crafting, saying here's what I bring.
(20:25):
So the interview is almost like an expose of here's what I can bring to you,
and then working together with the manager and the other employees on how can you bring that forth.
I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about job crafting and your experience with that participatory framework for creating hospitable work environments.
(20:47):
You're exactly right.
I think job crafting can be an incredibly beneficial tool,
but managers do need to be trained as well.
So perhaps just to give a bit of an overview of job crafting.
Really, this is something where both an employer and employee work together to agree on the position description, and it involves either adding or removing tasks to suit the strengths or weaknesses of the incumbent.
(21:10):
So to give you a bit of an example of what this could look like,
an autistic newspaper reporter might have really strong writing skills,
but they find social interaction difficult.
So they could be tasked with only writing articles and not be required to conduct interviews.
In terms of training, really other staff in the organization need training too. Things like unconscious bias training for staff,
(21:31):
and also training in specific neurodiversities that provide accurate information and dispel myths so that individuals can better understand and support their neurodivergent colleagues.
You mentioned the fact that the managers might have no prior experience working or interacting with someone who is neurodivergent.
So they really need to be upskilled to effectively support their neurodivergent colleagues.
(21:56):
Do you have a story from an employee and a manager who have gone through this,
that can illustrate how wonderful this is and how transformational it can be, to be a little bit more creative and participatory about how we create environments or create job descriptions?
I guess if I'm sort of thinking of one particular example,
(22:17):
which is really about career progression, and it was in a professional services firm.
So traditionally,
in a lot of those firms,
you start out as a consultant and as you move your way up the hierarchy rather than doing so much of the work,
you tend to do a lot more business development,
client relationship management type work.
Some neurodivergent individuals perform really well in doing that.
(22:38):
Others find it a bit more challenging.
This manager and individual found a way where this this neurodivergent employee could keep progressing without having to take on those kind of roles which they found challenging.
So they were able to focus on being the subject matter expert that they really wanted to be,
but rather than their career halting at that level and then not moving up, they were given some flexibility to be able to focus on what they did well.
(23:03):
Thank you for that.
That's really helpful.
What is it about a company or their DEI initiative or their talent management, that allows that company to move into or to change and adapt how it has typically or has previously done talent management into this new approach?
What are those success factors that you've seen?
(23:27):
Certainly you need,
I would suggest a neurodiversity champion within the organization.
So it needs to come from leadership at the top and it needs to be permeated throughout the organization.
Part of that is a champion,
someone who's promoting it within the organization.
But then there needs to be that ongoing training, and I guess just awareness within the organization of what neurodiversity is, so that it's well supported in the organization.
(23:54):
There's intersectionality in so many different planes.
And you know,
DEI is about neurodiversity.
It's also about racial and ethnic diversity.
It's about age --
all kinds of ways that you can understand DEI. And so I'm wondering what you have seen in terms of the intersections in your work with talent management.
(24:17):
Focusing on the neurodiversity aspect, have you seen this also help firms with overall diversity of their workforce?
Hopefully we all know that diversity is a good thing in organizations and it's the right thing to do.
I think it's really important to realize that there are social benefits.
Everyone deserves the opportunity for meaningful work,
which is so important to a person's well being.
(24:39):
And it also has flow on effects such as reducing unemployment and increasing productivity.
But really,
we're starting to learn that it's a smart thing to do.
We're probably all aware of the benefits of greater diversity generally in the workplace.
So whether we're talking about gender or cultural and linguistic diversity or neurodiversity,
whatever it might be,
we know that that drives innovation,
(25:00):
it makes for a better work environment,
it's more successful and productive,
creates a more attractive environment for higher performers.
And so by including these people,
it offers firms
a larger pool of candidates for organizations to choose from and therefore they end up with a better candidate.
A lot of these individuals can be well suited to various industries.
They can have great attention to detail.
(25:22):
Neurodivergent people can be methodical,
logical,
good at pattern recognition,
mathematics, problem solving,
which can all be useful in the science and it fields.
But I think also it's not just all about tech. Neurodivergent individuals can have specialist skills that are relevant to other areas too.
One thing that we've talked about,
we're seeing a lot more neurodivergent characters in the media.
So,
(25:42):
you know,
think Big Bang Theory,
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
You mentioned Extraordinary Attorney Woo, who I'm just learning about. I think it's great to see some of these characters now actually being played by neurodivergent actors as well.
Neurodivergent individuals can also be highly creative,
they can be imaginative.
They can have excellent visual skills and they can really excel in the arts and creative endeavors as well. So it's not just all about tech.
(26:04):
DEI initiatives could have all the pieces that you talked about and yet they fail,
these initiatives fail.
And I think part of that is what you're talking about.
There wasn't training for the managers,
there wasn't training for the other people in the workplace.
There weren't appropriate accommodations put in place.
(26:27):
The conversations didn't happen.
But I think one of the other things is, how do you measure, and do you measure, and what do you measure to actually show that your DEI initiative is having any impact?
One of the things you mentioned, that it's always so hard to measure, is,
is the person who is being hired actually able to be productive in this environment they've been hired into.
(26:56):
Can you talk a bit about, in your consulting work and in your research,
what are the things that we need to be paying attention to as we build a and deploy these DEI initiatives?
What should we be measuring?
And how can we actually make sure that folks that are being brought into these environments actually have a sense of well being and don't feel the need to mask and become exhausted and overwhelmed.
(27:22):
How do we understand that?
I think there's probably a couple of things.
One is when,
for example,
a neurodivergent person enters the organization, is it providing them with the support.
So we talked about managers needing to be upskilled,
but also providing them perhaps with a buddy or a mentor.
A buddy can be really helpful in terms of communicating to them what the social norms of the organization are, answering any questions,
(27:48):
being a bit of a social support to them.
But then we need to be constantly checking in with these individuals and understanding other things that we can do differently.
What's working,
what's not working,
reassessing.
Ultimately, if the person stays in the organization,
if the organization retains them and they're productive,
then that's a positive outcome.
(28:09):
That's what we're looking for.
If we lose the person, or they're not productive,
then clearly that shows that we're doing something wrong and,
and changes need to be made.
It's about the individual who's been hired.
It's also about the other individuals they're working with, and the relationship between these individuals and the team manager and,
and the other folks in the organization.
(28:31):
I think it is all about the culture.
It's about establishing an inclusive culture where people feel that they could authentically be themselves and they can ask for any kind of supports or accommodations without feeling the need to disclose why they might need those.
It's also about taking everyone along on the journey with you.
Again,
it comes back to education within the organization.
(28:53):
So educating not just managers but peers and all of those in the organization about the importance of these kind of initiatives.
What kind of -- are there any numbers out there?
Is there any research that's already available that that talks about increases in,
in the willingness to hire neurodivergent individuals?
A better understanding of the kinds of supports that neurodivergent individuals might need?
(29:17):
And I think --
I ask questions in threes --
I apologize.
It's like there's the support,
there's the hiring,
but there's also the benefits that having these kinds of more flexible work environments may have, not just for the neurodivergent individuals,
but along the spectrum of of neurodiversity.
Typically neurodivergent individuals face a number of challenges in the workplace, and these can be grouped into two different things.
(29:42):
So what we call interpersonal challenges,
so challenges with communication and in social interaction.
So sometimes social situations can seem challenging and confusing.
Communication can be misinterpreted and nuances missed.
So certainly the work-from-home environment has eased some of those social challenges because individuals don't go have to go into the the office necessarily.
(30:02):
A lot of communication is done via written form,
whether it's via email or whatever it might be.
People are doing still a lot of zoom calls.
And again,
you know,
sometimes we don't pick up on the subtleties in zoom calls.
But on the whole,
generally,
that's eased some pressures.
Neurodivergent employees can also face what we call environmental challenges.
(30:23):
And so creating the right work environment is really equally critical.
Many neurodivergent people can have sensory processing issues so they can be sensitive to lights,
sounds,
smells,
textures.
So again,
allowing them to work from home has enabled them to control their own environment around them.
So they can have the light exactly how they want it.
(30:45):
They can have the sound how they want it.
They can be sitting in clothes that make them feel comfortable.
Definitely,
I think the the working from home phenomena has opened up the door to neurodivergent individuals feeling a bit more comfortable,
but there are still challenges there.
So we've talked about remote wor,k
flexible work, dress code.
You mentioned the interview process.
One of the things I was always taught to do is to shake their hand. And this seems so innocuous, but it isn't!
(31:11):
Just the act of touching somebody else
can be so triggering to any number of people. And irrespective of neurodiversity,
it's culturally inappropriate in several countries.
So I'm wondering, what are some other things that those of us in Western cultures do as a matter of course,
that are triggering to a neurodivergent individual.
(31:37):
One thing is looking people in the eye.
In Western cultures, we're taught to look someone in the eye when you speak to them,
make eye contact. That's a really important polite thing to do. In other cultures that can be seen actually as a really disrespectful thing to do.
Neurodivergent individuals, some of them have difficulty with eye contact.
When they're entering the workforce,
(31:57):
when they're not making eye contact,
people perceive that as being rude. In other cultures that's considered OK.
So you're right,
there are a lot of different cultural norms that
I think we need to be aware of when we're dealing with people,
whether they're neurodivergent or from another country.
It's a tricky thing.
But again,
I think it comes back to the language.
It's about asking people,
are you comfortable with this, and just respecting their decision.
And sometimes even knowing to ask. I think this is where that training comes into play, is (32:22):
how do we interact with,
how do we understand what some triggers might be, and then open up the possibility to have the conversation.
Even when we started this,
how do you pronounce your name?
A lot of those things come up in the workplace.
I can't tell you how long
(32:43):
people mispronounce my name, because no one ever asks. And that drives me crazy.
But anyway,
so those triggers, recognizing that triggers exist, and that somebody is not being a special snowflake,
this can be actually just screamingly awful for somebody to have this trigger, this episode happen in the workplace
and make it really difficult for them to not just produce but to come back.
(33:07):
Can we go back a little bit to masking?
And if you could explain a little bit more,
what is masking and why is it bad?
So masking is where somebody is not able to be their authentic self.
To fit into an environment, they need to change things about themselves, how they naturally respond so that they're not seen as being unusual, or difficult, or outside the norm.
Often people with autism may mask to fit into the environment they're in, rather than sort of feeling like they can make particular expressions with their face or respond in certain ways,
(33:45):
they suppress that and they respond how they see others responding.
That can actually be really detrimental to a person's well being.
If you think about it,
if you're constantly not able to respond how you naturally want to,
if you're constantly thinking,
no,
suppress that response, respond in a way that others are responding,
that can actually be negative to a person's health and well being.
(34:06):
One of the things that I was reading about was this idea of mirroring,
where an autistic person might spend a huge amount of their time and effort looking at how other people are acting and trying to mirror how those interactions are working.
There was a study in neurotypicals, how much effort people spend doing the mirroring that is then effort taken away from participating,
(34:29):
contributing,
being creative.
I think it's so important for people to understand why masking is bad.
You're trying to fit in,
but you're doing it in such a way that actually denies the ability to,
to be you,
but also to use your brain
the way it works.
So much of the work that has been done in autism is how do we get autistic kids to fit in?
(34:54):
How do we get the ADHD kids not to fidget
and trying to find ways, especially in workplaces,
where there are certain,
there have been these normative ways of being in the workplace.
You have to dress a certain way,
you have to sit in a desk,
you have da da da.
Trying to break that apart a little bit to allow for more flexibility in behaviors in the workplace.
(35:19):
What are you seeing about how to accommodate a wider range of behaviors?
Absolutely.
It's been said that the opposite of inclusion is fitting in.
So, an inclusive culture is where people can come in and be authentically themselves and be accepted and valued for who they authentically are.
(35:42):
So it's something that's very important and it's,
that's really the next stage.
I mean,
people talk about diversity in organizations, but really it's about inclusion,
because we want people to come in to work, to feel comfortable, to bring their authentic self, because then they will be productive and actually do a great job.
And that's what everyone wants.
They'll feel good about their work. Organizations will value what they do.
(36:03):
So,
in terms of creating those environments,
the sensory challenges we talked about,
some organizations are doing things where they're creating quiet spaces or quiet rooms where people can go.
So for an example,
an employee who I spoke to,
who had Tourette's Syndrome loved this idea because they felt they could go to that room and make as much noise and movement as they wanted to without disturbing their colleagues.
(36:29):
They needed to do that.
It allowed them to be authentically themselves.
They weren't disturbing anyone else.
So things like that.
We talked a bit about smell.
You'd be surprised how difficult it can be if you have an issue with smell and you're sitting close to the lunch room and people are heating up all different foods. That can be really triggering.
So allowing people flexibility to say,
well,
hey,
you know,
can I move my desk here?
(36:49):
Can I work from here or can I work from home?
Because it allows me to,
you know,
not have to deal with that kind of environment.
So things like noise canceling headphones,
if individuals find the working environment too noisy.
Just allowing them to do simple things like that can actually make the workplace so much more enjoyable and allow people to,
to bring their authentic self to work and not be worried about not fitting in and,
(37:11):
and not performing well.
For me, fitting in was so important. For so many kids, fitting in and not making waves,
it's kind of beaten into you during the educational process.
Have you seen your work on talent management be adapted into educational environments?
(37:33):
How can we create classrooms that are more respectful of the variety of,
of kids that come into those classrooms?
Actually,
a lot of the research on neurodiversity in organizations has come out of the education sector.
So certainly schools were onto this earlier than organizations because they were forced, if you like,
(37:58):
I mean,
everyone has to go to school, so they're forced to deal with kids who are different.
If I can talk a little bit about our schools and ASPECT. Our schools are all based on what we call the transition model.
It's generally agreed that kids will function best when they're in a mainstream schooling environment,
but some kids aren't there yet.
So, very much the focus of our schools is preparing them to transition into a mainstream environment.
(38:23):
There are some kids who may actually never make that transition,
but that really is the goal.
Ultimately, you want schools to be inclusive and supportive of all different kids.
A lot of schools,
certainly in Australia,
the focus is,
is more on being inclusive in schools and working out how schools can accommodate for those kids,
whether it's having a teacher's aide in the classroom,
(38:43):
kids can be on what we call individual learning plans where they have particular goals that they need to meet,
that the teachers support them.
So actually education has been leading the way really, and it's been organizations that have had to catch up.
Primary school, secondary school, universities have been supporting people with neurodiversities.
And now organizations need to be prepared to take on these people who are graduating and support them in the work environment.
(39:08):
I'm really hoping that what you've been doing and what others have been doing in this neurodiversity space somehow is,
is better understood and applied to actually make inclusivity real.
And again,
I'm asking this really broad question, but,
what do you see in that respect?
(39:28):
Do you see some of these initiatives on the neurodiversity realm having an impact on cultural, race,
ethnicity,
other ways of being? The intersectionality there?
Are you seeing that start to play out?
Absolutely.
And I think it all comes down to the fact that people should be able to ask for accommodations to perform their job well.
(39:50):
There are anti discrimination legislative requirements.
This is where there are legal protections for employees with disabilities which require employers to at a minimum,
not discriminate against,
but in some cases,
they have to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities. In the US, Ithink it comes under the Americans with Disability Act.
(40:13):
So when we say provide reasonable accommodations,
we actually mean by providing accommodations that ensure people can work safely.
But also productively.
People have a right to be able to be productive in the workforce.
And in the workplace, they have a right to ask for things that can help them to do that.
And employers are required under law to actually do that.
(40:35):
There's more awareness now, the power dynamic has changed,
it's not just that an organization takes an employee and says,
ok,
go to work,
do what you need to do.
Actually,
they have responsibility to ensure that person can do their job well and be productive. And it might mean that they need certain things to help them do that,
whether it's someone with a neurodiversity, or it's a parent with kids, or it's someone with an aging parent who needs additional care, or it's someone with a physical disability, or someone with cultural challenges,
(41:04):
whatever it might be,
we need to support those employees.
I think it really comes down to the fact that anyone should be able to ask for accommodations to do their job effectively.
In our conversations about interruption, a lot of them have been about conversational interruptions.
How do you have a interaction with another person and break that stream of thought or add on to it.
In many cases, people think about interruption as (41:27):
I'm talking and then you break in and take over.
One of the things I've been thinking through and trying to understand and through these series of conversations is, can we reframe interruption or understand other ways of interruption,
which is not just breaking in,
but it's like, in an orchestra when you have another musical line coming in and these two instruments can play together, and the two sections,
(41:52):
the orchestra can play together this beautiful harmony or counterpoint.
What I'm thinking about now is this idea that in a workplace,
we've had this one melody going on in many of these big multinational corporations,
which is,
this is the way we act,
we have handshakes,
we wear suits,
we come to work 9 to 5,
you know,
we go out to lunch. 00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:25,862 And what's happening is that melody is getting added onto, and a richness is being added into the workplace with all of these other kinds of ways of being in the workplace.
(42:25):
Ways of participating and contributing are now being added on to that melody,
which is in a beautiful way, in my head, of thinking about interruption on the one hand,
but there's also an interruption,
as you just said, of this power structure in the workplace that says this is the only way we can be and to be accepted,
(42:49):
you need to fit into this,
this culture,
right?
And we're expanding that as well.
So there's kind of this interruption of power in the standard way of interruption.
We're stopping this and we're starting something new.
But there's also an interruption in the form of creating this new or,
or adding melodies into this harmony.
So I love what you've been working on.
(43:11):
I love that you're also working in the multinational space.
And I just think it's really neat that this has been pushed up through the educational system into the workplaces,
to think about, OK,
we need to actually create a space so that we can do wonderful things.
That's just,
that's awesome.
So thank you for the work that you're doing.
(43:33):
It's great.
I want to end with a question about where,
where you think the next big questions are for you.
What are those open questions that you're investigating right now?
I think one of the biggest challenges is something I've touched on,
which is the issue of disclosure.
How do organizations and managers realize and identify who needs support and potentially who,
(43:58):
who doesn't.
I mean,
all the employees need some form of support but,
but what support is needed.
And so I guess it's really about how,
how do you build that inclusive culture where people feel confident that they're not gonna be stigmatized,
they're not gonna face discrimination to actually put their hand up and say,
hey,
these are the kind of things that I need in place to be able to do my job well.
(44:19):
For me,
that's one of the big challenges and something that I think we'll be grappling with for a little while yet still.
Yes,
there's a long road ahead.
Emily, thank you so much for joining us.
I look forward to more wonderful work coming from you
and again, thank you so much.
Thanks Laure.
I've really enjoyed our conversation.
(44:44):
Thank you for joining us today.
For more about this podcast,
please see our website at www.weinterruptthispodcast.com.
There we have show notes, links and other episodes.
You can also contact me on Twitter @HaakYak to recommend topics or speakers for the series.
I look forward to hearing from you.
(45:04):
This podcast was produced on the traditional lands and waters of the Menominee, Potawatomi and Ojibwe peoples.
I pay my respects to Elders past and present and to emerging and future Indigenous leaders.
It is a gift to be grounding and growing this work within these beautiful forests and waterways.
Thank you also to Emma Levinson for her Interruptions artwork featured on our website.
And to Alan Huckleberry for allowing us to use Bartok's Melody with Interruptions from the University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project.
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