April 11, 2025 • 45 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk sits down with The Athletic’s, Dane Brugler, to talk about “The Beast” NFL Draft Guide, the Giants pick at #3, and where in the draft the Giants could consider a quarterback.
:00 - Giants #3 pick
9:50 - Quarterbacks
14:35 - Defensive tackles
18:56 - Running backs
22:27 - Edge rushers
26:22 - Offensive line
29:50 - Wide receivers
37:38 - Tight ends
39:12 - Giants predictions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hulet's go, Let's go,
Let's go, Gians, get out on the Giants. Moubbul give
me some job. Part of the Giants Podcast Network. Let's
welcome to a new edition of the Giants Little Podcast,
brought to you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants.
John Smoke with you live from the Hackensack Murty Health
Podcast studio. Keep getting better. We've dragged them out of
the hole. He's reduced himself to his family and his children.
(00:24):
The Beast is complete and now he's just doing hits
all over the place. And we've seen him on a
bunch of different hits already. We thank him for joining
us on our Humble Giants podcast today. Part of the program,
the one and only Dane Brugler. Dane, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm doing well. It was been a cool few days
hearing on the feedback about the Beast and how much
people are enjoying the new interface this year with you know,
still the PDF if someone wants to download it that way,
but we have a new kind of micro site for
it this year, easy navigation. You can search for any
player you want. There's over twenty six hundred players with
(00:58):
full testing information on there, and of course you know
the reports for over four hundred guys, all the cool
stuff that I think people have grown to know the
Beast for with the backstories and the testing information and
all of that. So it's been it's been really fun
to you know, whether it's you know, I get a
text from somebody in the league or all the cool
responses on Twitter or all that kind of stuff. It's been.
(01:20):
It's been a fun few days here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah. The micro site is awesome and you have to
be a member of the Athletic in order to check
that out. To make sure you guys, go subscribe to
the Athletic. It is a great service. Go check that out.
And you know it's funny. I heard you on the
Athletic Football Show, which you'll be on now the rest
of the way heading up to the draft now with
Robert Mas and the crew and Derek Lass and they
do a great job. And you know, Robert was talking
about I'm old school, you know. I have my PDF
(01:43):
on my desktop and I still print them out and
I sent it to the printer yesterday Dan and they
print around like ten of them for people around the
building and they're gonna have them, and I love having
that next to me for the next month or so.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Just you know, I fought for that. I had to
fight for that because I know there's a lot of
people that want to have their printed version, and they
I think there's some people that would like to see
this go all digital, but I said, no, we've got
to do make sure there's a PDF version so it's
easy to print, easy for people to have that hard
copy if that's the direction they want to go. So
(02:16):
I'm glad we were able to make that happen and
hopefully we keep that going.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, and by the way, I want the reason I
hesitated before we started today. I wanted to pull out.
And I not sure if this is the first one
you did, but it's the first one I have printed.
This is twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was this the most a decade ago. I mean,
if we're technically speaking, the first one I ever did
is my freshman year dorm room back in twenty and five.
Technically speaking, I have that somewhere. I don't know if
I ever actually printed it, maybe just living in a
word document on my computer, but yeah, I mean that
was that was probably one of the first ones that
(02:50):
I like actually kind of dressed up and they made
public and available. Yeah, there's a point in like twenty
thirteen where I was just kind of giving it away
and saying, hey, look, this is because when I started
doing it, it was I wanted to be with the team,
and like, hey, this is my resume, this is what
I'm either psycho or I have a real passion for this,
because look this is what I put together. Possibly, but yeah,
(03:12):
and hey, that opened a lot of doors for me
around the league. And but you know, I kind of
enjoyed being on the media side now of doing this
and being able to share all this information with with
the all the all the draft fans out there. It's
it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That is Laramie tunsel Sands gas mask. I believe I'm
on the cover there, So yes, all right, so let's
get to it. I really enjoyed the the humble brag,
and you're one of the most humble people I know,
so I love the humble brag. During the Athletic Football Show,
I happened to be texted with Ian Rappaport about you
know how we think this draft is gonna go, which
which I love. By the way, and I want to
(03:48):
try to get some intel from you, because teams right
now are starting to finalize their boards right The Giant
scouts are here, They're in the building. They've been upstairs
for the past week trying to finalize what the board's
going to look like. I'm not sure the teams are
done yet, but I'm sure a lot of the work
is close to complete. What's your feel right now for
what scenario the Giants are going to be looking at
picking third overall?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So two weeks out, you know, obviously this could change tomorrow,
let alone, you know, in two weeks, but with what
we know right now, sure feels like, okay, cam Ward
would be that number one overall pick to the Titans.
I mean, and I think that was pretty clear at
the combine was cam Ward was going number one. It
was more of a question are the Titans gonna stick
and pick or could we see some trade action up there?
(04:29):
And they're gonna it. Sure seems like they're gonna stay
and pick. And you know, with the first year general
manager Mike Burgonzi, you just never know. But it makes sense.
It gives them an avenue to a quarterback, you know,
a type of guy that a lot of teams would
bet on. I think if you are available at two,
the Browns would draft him. If you're available at three,
the Giants would draft him. So no mystery why cam
(04:51):
Ward is gonna be the number one overall pick. And
then at two the Browns certainly are a wild card
because we know they need a quarterback, and we know
they need offense really in the worst way. They were
thirty second in the league in offensive scoring last year,
thirty second and third down conversions. So do they go
with one of these quarterbacks? Do they look to trade down?
I think Travis Hunter is the way you go. He's
(05:12):
the best player in this draft, in my opinion, and
he gives you the best of both worlds because he
can be a big time corner, but he also gives
you a little bit of life on offense as well.
So I think Travis Hunter would be the pick of two,
and that leaves the Giants at three with the other
quote unquote elite prospect in this draft being Abdul Carter
sitting there for them. And you know, we know maybe
(05:34):
pass rush isn't number one need on this team. You
know it gave Burns all that money last year and
then you still have Kevon Thibodeau on this team. But
when you have a chance, I think when you're picking
top three, top five, you draft players, not positions, and
when you have a chance to draft a difference maker,
you do it. And so I right now, with where
we're sitting, Abdul Carter at three to the Giants, to
(05:56):
me makes the most sense.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I think it does, too, Danum, with you, I
don't think you can make the case for a position
player over Abdul Carter. I just I don't see it.
I love Mason Graham as much of the next guy,
but just physically, I can't sell myself on him over Carter.
Ashton Gent's a running back. I can't sell myself on that.
And then the only the guy looking at is is
should war Sanders because quarterback is such a big need.
(06:20):
But you wind up with what number thirty four on
your big board.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, And I've been pretty consistent about kind of you know,
like going back to my mid season top fifty around Halloween,
he was like twenty five or something around there. I
mean he's kind of always been that late one, early two. Like,
for whatever reason, you can't like Shadar Sanders. You have
to love him or hate him, and I am here
to say you can just like him. You know, it's
(06:44):
okay to just think he's a good quarterback. You like him.
I just wouldn't drafted him top five, and I think
there are plenty of other teams that look at him
in a similar way.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Have you found any teams that have told you we
would pick him in the top five or top ten?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
No, but I think there's you know, there are plenty
of teams that maybe haven't done the level of work
that Joe Shane is. I mean, we know how much work.
The Giants haven't been necessarily coy about the amount of
work they've put into the Colorado quarterback. So nobody knows
him I think better in the NFL than Shane and
his staff in that front office, which you know, really
(07:24):
put it this way, like I don't The Giants obviously
aren't going to tell me what they're going to do,
but I can tell you what other teams think the
Giants are going to do, and they lean towards a
non quarterback there at three, and if that happens, then
we're on Shador watch. You know, where does he land
at that point? Nine to the Saints are a possibility,
(07:44):
but I don't see that happening. I would be surprised.
And so we were talking to Steelers in the twenties,
are we going to talk about could the Giants potentially
trade back up into the second round? You know, you
think about the Texans the Vikings somewhere twenty four to
twenty five and get Shador there. Same thing with the Browns.
The Browns could be in that conversation as well. So
(08:05):
I think it's the first round is going to be
really interesting in a big part because of everyone's gonna
be curious where Shador lands.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Now, I'm with you. One last question on Shaudor before
we move off of it. Your specific evaluation of him,
and I've heard people describe him, and I think most
of it's accurate. You know, good, solid arm, accurate, tough,
good in the pocket, good decision maker, doesn't make a
lot of mistakes. But then everyone always throws in processing
and Dan, I gotta be honest with you, I don't
necessarily see that myself. Now, I'm not a quarterbacks coach,
(08:36):
I'm not an offensive coordinator, so I don't think I'm
qualified to see that. But for a guy that holds
the ball so long in a very simple offense. I'm
not sure I see the processing part of it, do you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And I think that's fair because there are times where
you do see it, but there's a lot of other
times where you don't. Where he's he's taking extra hitches
and it's he's not trusting the pocket and he's quick
to just dump it off and not let the routes
develop and let these different route combinations come to life.
So it's something where and you wonder how much of
(09:07):
it is scar tissue because he has played behind a
bad offensive line, and is that how much does that
play in part of him drifting? And there are some
snaps where he's just going in reverse and the tackles like, yes,
it's a blow average offensive line, but the tackles can't
do anything about that. Some of these sacks are on
the quarterback. And I just keep coming back to with
Shadoor Sanders, like he didn't play in a very good
(09:29):
conference in terms of just overall defensive talent and the
three best defenses he faced Nebraska, which is a Big
Ten team, Kansas State and BYU those are the three
defense best defenses he faced he struggled against all three,
and so again, I like Shador Sanders, I just don't
necessarily see a guy that's going to elevate my entire
(09:51):
offense and help lead us to the playoffs. And you know,
I think most teams see it that way, but it
only takes one team to say, hey, we're going to
roll the dice on him and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
And I think we're on the exact same page on that. Now.
I would like to walk out of this if I
was a Giants general manager. Thank God for the organization
I am not. I would love to walk out of
this draft with either Tyler Shuck, Jalen Morrow somehow Sanders
drops you can throw him to the mix two how
or Jackson Dart? How early? Am I gonnat to pick
one of those three quarterbacks? Is there any shot one
(10:23):
of those guys gets to the top round three? Or
am I looking at thirty four or bust?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I'd be surprised. I think all there's a good chance
all five of the top five quarterbacks this year they
go in the top sixty. And so if cam Ward
goes one and then he might be the only quarterback
that goes in the top you know, twenty picks and
then the late twenties are going to be interesting with Shador,
Jackson Dart, Tyler Shuck, Jaln Milroe. You know how many
(10:49):
fall to the second round and then you know, could
any of them fall further than sixty I would be surprised.
And so we have the Giants sitting there. I pick
what thirty four? Ye?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Thirty sixty five?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right, so you have an opportunity to do you package
those picks to go up and get one of these quarterbacks?
Do you just stay put in thirty four and see? Okay,
could a Jackson Dart be there? Could Tyler Schuck get
past the Browns at thirty three? You know, do they
love one of these secondary quarterbacks enough to go make
(11:21):
a splash? I think you could make a case for
all of them. You know, with Jackson Dart, you like
the physical tools, that competitiveness and intangibles are off the charts.
We know the Giants have done a lot of work
on Dart. I think it's just gonna take time. You know,
there's a lot of things that he did and that
lank off and offense that he's just not gonna be
asked to do in the NFL. It's gonna look very
very different. And that doesn't mean he can't do it.
(11:43):
It just means it's more of a projection. And that's
you know, I understand taking a chance on that when
we're talking a day two pick. It's a little riskier
when we're taking them in the first round. But the
Giants are kind of in a place where they might
have to gamble a little bit, and I think you
feel better about not gambling with that top three pick,
but maybe with that second rounder. That's where he let's
(12:05):
take a shot. You know, we can't just sit and
wait and hope the next great quarterback falls to us.
Let's be aggressive. We like Jackson Dart the most, Let's
go get him. And so it might take a little
bit of a trade up, but it seems like that's
maybe the more likely scenario for this team.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I think Milroe is interesting just because we know
how ty Brian Dable is with Nick Saban, who obviously
knows him very very well from Alabama, so I think
they'll have great intel on Milroe too. In terms of
and I think bringing in those two Vets Dane, it
gives you the luxury of not having to use him
right away. And frankly, I'm not even sure. I don't
think any of the quarterbacks they would draft this year,
if it's not cam Ward, would beat out Russell Wilson
(12:44):
early in the year. I just don't think they're gonna
be able to do it. So why not draft a
guy that might take some time to develop. You have
good intel on him from Sabin. Maybe you can develop
a package for him early and still use his running
ability and some of his other tools as an athlete
early in his career. That to me something that seems
like it could be very plausible at thirty.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Four, Yeah, no doubt, And especially with Milroe and his
ability to use his legs to impact the offense, I
think that you go back to what he did this
past year. Twelve of his rushing touchdowns were ten plus yards.
That's the most of a quarterback in the last twenty
five years. Lamar Jackson came close. He had eleven back
in twenty seventeen. But talking about an explosive player and
(13:25):
how and it's not he has long speed, but his
speed is so sudden and immediate that's he's immediately causing
defensive pursuit angles to just fall apart, and so that's
his trump card that really gets him out of jams
and helps him. And he's so explosive through the air
as well. Sixteen passing touchdowns this year and average thirty
(13:47):
six point six yards per touchdown. That's crazy, and that
speaks a lot to his ability to push the ball downfield. Now, again,
to your point what you're saying, it's going to take
time with him. He is very undeveloped when we talk
about just the feel in the pocket, and that's something
that some coach you have. Some coaches they'll tell you
you can't really teach that. That's something that you're born
with or you're not. Other coaches will tell you, we
(14:09):
can improve it, we can get him better at that.
And so if you really focus on the Georgia tape,
the Wisconsin tape, you're gonna look at Jalen Milroe and say, hey,
this is a worthwhile investment. But if you're focusing on
the Oklahoma tape, the Michigan tape, it's gonna be like,
all right, maybe let's this might be a little too
rich for taking him here in the top thirty five picks.
(14:29):
Let's wait and see if he falls to us in
that early third.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Toddle up, get in here. If you're lined up here,
you gotta go over the middle with at the score great.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I don't know, but Citizens does makes sense of your
money with Citizens Official Bank of Eli Manning. All right,
I want to hit a couple more positions to your
dan defensive tackle. I'm calling it kind of the defensive
tackle hole and it shows up on your big boar too.
You have Walter Nolan at thirty one. I think both
of us think he could go a lot higher than
that based on the word teams think about him. Then
(15:00):
you have Shamar Turner all the way down to fifty six.
The only player in between those two is tay Leak
Williams at forty. So where the Giants are picking a
thirty four, you could be wiped out there defensive tackle
until you're getting the third round players. So do you
see that third round of less one of those top
DT's you know, Grand Harmon or Nolan or one of
those guys, or even Williams to an extent drop to
(15:22):
the Giants at thirty four? Are you better off just
waiting til the third round to try to get Dexter
Lawrence's running mate there.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I think so, And it's not a bad strategy
when you think of the look at the defensive tackle,
the talent that's going to be on the board. It's
one of the deepest positions this year. So if you
don't love say Tayleerk Williams, in which I would have
no problem taking. He's a top forty pick in this draft.
So if you take him at thirty four, totally fine
with it. Maybe he doesn't give you enough pass rush
(15:49):
for what you want out of a defensive tackle that early,
but one of the most dominant run defenders in this draft.
But you can wait until the third round, fourth round,
and I think you feel good about the play you're getting.
I mean, Shamart Turner could very easily be there in
the early third round and be a guy that they
look at and say, okay, we he's one of those
players that you know, the aggressive way he likes to
(16:12):
play you, you don't necessarily you know it might bother
you if you're another team, but when he's on your team,
it's like, all right, this is the type of guy
that we can win with. And you know whether he's
some some questionable calls or anything like that. We anybody
that's watched Texas A and M's defensive line knows exactly
what I'm talking about. But Shamart Turner has a lot
(16:35):
to him that will play at the NFL level. So
I think a guy like that Ty Robinson from Nebraska,
you know. Uh, there's a lot of defensive tackles in
this class that I think will fit maybe what they're
they're looking for. And it could be at thirty or
in the third round, at sixty five, could be in
the fourth round because this defensive tackle class is gonna stretch.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah. TJ. Sanders, the guy that maybe top of the
third round could could could maybe be there with me
on that. And it's funny you bring up Tyler Gims
and I'd be fine picking you at thirty four to two.
And the case I've been making here, Dan is that
in a draft like this where if you're picking outside
the top three, don't try to get fancy and shoot
for a star here. If you have somebody that you
think is gonna be a good player, even if it's
at a boring position, just take the guy and you're
(17:17):
gonna be happy. Delan Jeremiah made me feel better about
my take because Jeremiah tweeted out earlier today he's talked
to three or four executives and they called this a
starter draft. You can find starters, just don't try to
find stars. So I think, you know, you talk about
the running back class bndep, this is just going to
be a draft where find a good football player that
can help you in a spot and just be happy
about it. Don't try to you know, focus on need,
(17:38):
focus on you know, star hunting, and I think you'll
be okay.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Well that's what if you're the Giants. And like, I
get it, Giants fans are they're not happy about picking
third in a draft where they're kind of boxed out
of a quarterback. And like if they had a third
pick overall last year, you have Drake May third overall pick.
This year, there's no quarterback for you. So I understand
why Giants fans are upset about. But hey, it could
be worse. You could be the fifth pick, the sixth pick,
(18:04):
the seventh pick, and you're missing out on that top
tier of players, that second tier. Like I like Mason Graham,
but he's not Quinn Williams. You know, he's not Jalen Carter.
You're missing out on what I think you usually think
of a top ten pick. But for the Giants, you
have a chance to get aut Duel Carter there. You
have a chance to get a difference maker or whether
(18:24):
that's Travis Hunter. If Abdull Carter goes too and then
you steal with that second round or third round or
fourth round, you feel like you're getting starters at that
point because one hundred percent agree the first round is
not going to really blow you away in terms of
overall talent relative to other years. But the second round,
third round, fourth round, there's a lot of starters in
that mix, especially at the defensive line. Running back. It's
(18:47):
been funny to see how many how much work the
Giants have been doing at running back position, and how
that's a position we could see them maybe address earlier
than a lot of people think. But it's one of
those positions is that there's a lot of them in
this class, and if the right one's on the board
at thirty four, maybe it's a direction they go there.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
All right, I was gonna go to edge, but you
brought up running back, so let's go there. I just
recorded something with Nate Tye, your old comrade from the
Athletic Football Show, and there was some RJ. Harvey slander,
So I'm going to allow you to try to Yes,
there was a little bit of slander. There was a
little bit of slander. It was honestly, you board just
like I'm not as high in Harvey as everybody else.
(19:27):
So I consider that slander and that's fine. I'm also
a big RJ. Harvey. I think he's really really good.
Where do you think the Giants are looking to complement
Tyrone Tracy? Are they looking for a bruising running back
to take some of the early down work away from
him or are they looking for that explosive, fast guy
to give you some of that more third down type
(19:48):
of explosion. Because the great thing about this running back
class day, both types of guys are out there. You
can find both.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh yeah, no doubt. And that's why I don't know
that they're necessarily entering the draft with an idea of
we have to get this style of runner, because I
think you can make the case they could go either way.
I agree, you know exactly, I think you could. Why
can't you have two explosive backs in the backfield? You know,
why can't you. But if you want to go maybe
the more traditional route where you have the thunder and
(20:16):
lightning with more of it, a Pounder and a Damien
Martinez or you know, I love Jordan James. Jordan James
for Oregon is one of my favorite players in this draft.
He's not gonna get you a break off a sixty
yard run, but he's gonna get you six consistently because
of the way he runs. It's no nonsense. It's okay,
block it up for me. I'm going to hit the
hole and I'm gonna get you five six yards every time,
(20:37):
so I can win with that. Give me the guy
that has a nose for the sticks. Not a home
run hitter, but he's going to lead the league in
doubles and that's perfectly fine for me, and I think
it'd be a great fit for what the Giants are
with Tyrone Tracy and maybe what they want to be
on offense. But yeah, if they want to go with
a more explosive back, and you know whether that's you know,
(20:58):
to me, R. J. Harvey falls in that category being
explosive back, a guy that creates consistently. There's so many
different shapes and it's it's it's ice cream, right. All
the ice cream is good, but everyone has their own
separate favorite flavor, and all these running backs have something
to offer. It's just you know, what's your flavor? What
kind of back are you're looking for? And there's a
(21:18):
lot of different ways you could go in this class,
And so could it be you know, Caleb Caleb Johnson
reunite him with Ladzell Betts from the Iowa days. You
can go that direction. If Mary and Hampton were to
slip through the first round, be there at thirty four?
Could that be a direction that they go? So I
don't I think they're going to take a running back,
but I wouldn't say it's absolutely going to be in
(21:41):
the first three rounds or it's going to be. There's
a lot of different ways they can attack this position.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
And this might seem like a counter factual to some people,
but I think running backs might end up slipping in
this draft Dan just because they have to say to themselves, well,
we can get one later. Why would we use a
premium pick on one?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Well, and there's so many of them that it's just
bound happen. Where guys that have third round grades are
available in the fourth. I just you know Jordan James.
To me, he's a third round player. But if he's
available in the fourth, it wouldn't be a huge surprise
because there's so many of these guys that there's only
so many teams that will draft a running back in
the top one hundred this year, whereas that list will
(22:18):
expand once we get to Day three and even in
the so there will be guys available in the sixth
who have fourth and fifth round grades. It's just how
it's going to happen. Because the sheer volume of running
backs we have here, it's a numbers game, and so
that will be interesting to see who might end up
with a big steal, likely somewhere on Day three with
one of these running back.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Now I'm with you, all right, So let's jump to
the edge spot here. Dan, I'm curious talking to teams
because I spent the last two or three days just
trying to order my edge players. And I'll bring on
my sheet here. I haven't broken down by position. Trying
to order my edge rushers from edge rusher number five
to edge rusher number ten has been like a night.
(23:01):
There's like something different and maybe something a little bit
wrong with all of them, but they all have traits
that you get excited about talking to teams. Isn't it
as chaotic? You think talking to teams, how they rank
and group that second group of vegges. Once you get
past Abdul Carter and maybe just Abdul Quarter, tell me
when that kind of next group starts.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Oh yeah, there's no doubt. I mean, and I am
constantly trading, you know, or showing my notes with scouts
and saying like, hey, what do you think of this,
like this stack, and like he's telling me his stack,
and we kind of trade ideas. And it's very very diverse.
I mean, there's so many different opinions on what these
pass rushers are. You know, some believe in a guy
(23:42):
like Mikel Williams from Georgia. Others want nothing to do
with Mikel Williams, at least in the first round as
that type of guy, a top five ed rusher in
this class. Same thing with Shamar Stewart from Texas A
and m He's got a lot of fans around the league.
He's also got a lot of detractors who are looking
at the one and a half sacks and maybe you're
not ready to bet high on that athletic potential. And
(24:04):
so there's a lot of different opinions on these guys.
And then once you get to that second round when
we're talking J. T. Tuamalu from Ohio State or Landon
Jackson from Arkansas. All a bunch of guys that teams like,
but the order of how they put them is very different.
So I got to a point where I was, I'm
with you, I'm getting stressed out about my edge order
(24:25):
because it's like, all right, well, this guy's my tenth edge,
but this team likes him at five, like that he's
a fifth edge, Like am I over underselling who he is?
And you know, it's just there's but I talked to
another team who has the edge that I have at
ten down there at twelve. It's like, okay, well, maybe
it makes you feel a little bit better about where
I have my guy, but it's I just you come
(24:46):
to the conclusion that this is why the draft is
so much fun, right. It's because two sets of eyes
can see very different things when you scout these players,
and it's the edge class. This year might be the
perfect example of that at the top where after Abdol Carter,
Jaylen Walker, Shamar Stewart, Mike Green, Michael Williams. Like that
(25:07):
order is going to be very different from team to
team depending on who you talk to.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Which Ohio State guy do you like better? I think
I like Sawyer a lot of a little bit better
than Toamalow just because of his hand usage.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
See I'm the other way around. I like Toamalo and
I think he has well. I think that's part of it. Definitely.
I think he has a better floor in terms of
I just know what I'm getting with him. With Jack Sawyer,
you know, I I like Jack Sawyer, but I just
felt like he's not going to give me that consistent
production in terms of the sacks, In terms of the
(25:40):
backfield number. Jack Sawyer didn't have a single tackle for
loss this year that wasn't a sack, you know, like
just that's he he did. He did not. He wasn't
disruptive in the run game, even though he was. I
thought he was a good run defender, but he wasn't
disruptive enough. Where with Tomalow, especially with he did down
the stretch. Jack Sawyer gets all the ton of the
credit and he should what he did against on the
(26:02):
Texas late in that game was tremendous. But Toamalow was
just almost unblockable at certain points throughout the playoffs. He
was a big part of what they did. So, yeah,
I would lean that way. I've got a higher grade
on him. But I think both these guys are Day
two players. And just again, just us talking about these
two players, it speaks to the fact that there's it's
(26:23):
not a right or wrong, it's not a it's just you.
You can see all these guys a little bit differently,
and especially when you factor in scheme and what you
want to do with them, And yeah, it makes his
for some really interesting conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, absolutely, what do you think of the guard class
here on day two? And who are some of the
guys maybe at thirty four? You know, I don't know
if one of those guys out of that top tier
are going to drop down to you. I don't know
how high Booker and Jackson you go to me. Those
are two safe pick players, and I think they'll probably
get pushed up the board. These teams will know what
they're getting with them. But what do you think that
guard market's gonna look like on Day two? Of the
(26:55):
Giants decide to beef up their offensive line.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think it's a pretty solid group. Really. Like Tate
Ratledge from Georgia, I think he's every bit worth a
second round pick. If he weren't injured this year as
much as he was, I think we'd be talking about
him as almost a slam dunk top fifty type of guy.
But you know, the medicals that will be a big
part of it, speaking about why we're not talking about
(27:19):
him as a top as a lock top fifty guy.
I think Jonas Savane from Arizona tackle guard a little
bit of versatility that makes sense. I let me ask you,
how do you think, because there's so much debate about
Tyler Booker right now, and you know, for certain schemes
he's not gonna be a fit, but he will be
for others. His testing was just so historically low, the
(27:42):
ten yards split, the vert all of that, how do
you think he fits in the Giants offense and what
they are looking for guard.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'll be honest with though, I didn't see a bad
athlete when I watched the tape, Like when I watched him,
I didn't say, oh my gosh, this guy is going
to be historically, and he was just look he was
it was a historically. I mean, the workout was not good,
but I thought the position of workouts looked alright, even though.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
The test thing is poor, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
So I think the Giants used a very variable run
scheme last year. I think they did start to lean
into more of that duo stuff later in the year,
which I think would lean more towards what he likes.
But then, you know, we talk about you know, you
mentioned Caleb Johnson is as a connection. Well, if you're
gona bring in Caleb johnson're gonna really outside zone, right,
So then maybe then he doesn't make sense for you.
So they were very variable in the run game last year.
(28:27):
I think Carn Bursilla and Brian Dabule like to like
to keep themselves pretty nimble in that way. So I
have thought about him as a potential pick of thirty four.
But you're right, he's just so scheme specific in terms
of what teams will want and what teams won't like.
If he winds up with the Rams, with the way
they run the ball, that's gonna be perfect.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
But I just don't know, no, and that makes that
makes all the sense in the world. And that's why
when you're trying to find that exact landing spot for him,
it's a little tough because you know, first of all,
there's only so many teams that will draft a guard
in the first round, and then you eliminate all the
outside zone teams and you're left with maybe only a
few options. So if Tyler Booker were to fall a
(29:03):
little bit be there at thirty four, that would be
an interesting spot for him.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, I think it would be too. Do you think
teams see Donovan Jackson as a guard only? You think
some see him as a guard emergency tackle or do
some teams actually see him as a tackle?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Some teams actually see him as a tackle, because I
mean you watch him. His best tape this year is
a tackle. I mean, plain and simple. It was now
going to the NFL A projection is more of a
tackle slash guard. I think more teams see him as
a guard, but they see him have tackle versatility, and
with good reason, with what he did for Ohio State
down the stretch. Now, I'm not as high on Donovan
(29:41):
Jackson as others. I like him quite a bit. I
think he's a top fifty player. I see him more
as a Day two player, though I see him as
a second rounder, whereas there are some teams that look
at him and say, okay, I mean once we get
to the into the twenties, he's going to be a
possibility for us. And so there's definitely some wide ranging
opinions Donovan Jackson as well, all.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, the same way I trouble stacking my edge player's
day and I trouble stacking my wide receivers. Once you
get past I would say the top three guys, maybe four.
I think Golden and egg Buka are level above Burden
for me. I know a lot of people really love Burden,
they have him higher, and that's fine. But once you
get into like the Ohio State, the Iowa State guys,
the Besches, the Tray Harris', the Kyle Williams, I eleman Are,
(30:25):
it gets really really tight very quickly. And is this
when you talk to teams very much like the edge
class where these rankings are all over the place when
it comes to that second group.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Of whiteouts, yeah, for sure. And part of it is
because we have to remember they're all under the same
bucket as receivers, but they're all very different. You know,
you just take the two Iowa State guys. Jayden Higgins
is very different with what he offers and Jalen Noel.
You know, Higgins can be that big, good size X
on the outside, where Noel is more I think he
(30:55):
can play inside outside, but teams are gonna look at
him as probably best in the slot where he can
be a vertical slot. He can work underneath if he
can do these different things. And all those other guys
you mentioned, like Jack Bash is very different with than
some of these other guys. Trey Harris, same thing. Jalen
Royals is maybe a little more versatile. He can work
inside outside, So you know, I certainly understand, you know,
(31:16):
I see it as I actually have Burden as my
third receiver. I just I like a Buka. I like
Burden and a Buka. I like they're just more they're
late ones, and I'm gonna take the guy with the
higher upside as opposed. But if someone's looking for more
of a very well rounded and he's a true pro,
Bukah is your guy all day for sure. And so
(31:37):
I think it just depends on the type of receiver
that you want. And then on day two, it's definitely
a little bit of kind of a grab bag of
I really like Jalen Noel. He's my fifth receiver this year.
I just think he's so explosive. He catches everything. Not
a huge target in terms of catch radius in terms
of you know what the quarterback's seeing, but he catches
everything thrown his way, and he did it consistently throughout
(31:59):
the year. He did at the Senior Bowl, tested off
the charts at the Combine. So it's just like, all right,
I like Jalen Noel throughout the entire process, and it's
just checkbox, checkbox, checkbox. Why am I holding him down?
Like why can't he be a top forty guy? So ultimately,
I think that that's where he ends up.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
If you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man. But if you're
wondering about a long term financial plan, you should talk
to Citizens. Hey, I can also talk long care.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I'd like to learn about Amili routine.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yes, I knew I could help make sense of your
money with Citizens. He has some very lad McConkie like
vibes to me.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, well, and that's why I was just doing a
Patriots podcast talking about Jalen Noel being the Mconkie Maya Kulpa, like,
you know, we passed. We thought he was a slot
only last year, and we probably made a mistake there
by trading away from from him. Let's not make the
same mistake with Jalen Noel because even though yeah, he's
probably best in the slot, but he's not simply a
(32:57):
slot only. He can do a lot of different things
for you, So you.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Are always on top of this. Is it Noel or
is it nol?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Uh? I guess yeah, it's it's probably more nol. I mean, see,
it's funny because when I'm on watching him on tape,
it's just you know, he's number thirteen for Iowa State.
But it is more nol. It is more a way
not to Christmas Noel, It's more, it's more nol. You're right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I've gone back and forth. I keep calling them different dames,
and you're the guy I trust the most. But you
actually talk to these guys. I actually know exactly what
it is. That's why I wanted to ask you because the.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Word yeah, no, it's then that's why you need the beast,
right is the mystery? You have the pronunciations right, there,
you know, and it's it's it's nol think of like
a grassy knoll.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, definitely, all right, excellent, I'm with you. I think
he's he he's my fifth guy after those, after those
top four. I think he's a really really, really good player.
If you're looking for a kind of a Day three
guy that maybe you can develop into something you more
of a is is a Tesla guy, You're more of
a saving on Williams guy, You're more of an armstrong guy.
Is teammate who's that kind of developmental guy? Or maybe
(34:03):
you like the Deantive Thorne out of Tennessee, the really fast,
skinny kid. Who is your favorite like kind of upside
developmental guy in day three.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
If Tory Horton from Colorado State makes it to Day three,
he'd definitely be my answer. And I think he's kind
of the forgotten guy in this draft. The knee injury
mid season. Yeah, and I think back to not this year,
the year before twenty twenty three against Colorado, that epic
Colorado Colorado State game. You know, he just showed out
in that In that game, he was kind of like, Okay, this,
(34:32):
this is why he should be a top one hundred pick.
But then he goes back to school has knee injury,
and I gave him a late third early fourth round
grade just with the medicals, so I could easily see
him go on day two. But if he's still around
on day four or day three in the fourth round,
I would love to add him at that point. Savan
Williams is interesting because of you know, I was talking
(34:53):
to a team about where talking about, you know, how
he would stack these you know, three or four players,
and I include saving On Williams in there, and you know,
he didn't include him in his receiver stack, and I said, oh,
he's not a saving On Williams fan. He's like, oh, well,
he's a running back slash joker for us. So you know,
like he's not even viewed as a receiver for that team.
(35:13):
And it's you understand, understand why watching the tape and
how he was used in a wildcat quarterback and you know,
so many of his targets were within five yards of
the line of scrimmage and they just they manufactured the
touches to get the ball in his hands so he
could go make something happen. And you know, he can
do some things down the field on fades and some
of those you know, just want him to be a
(35:34):
ball winner. He can go do that, but not being
a consistent receiver makes the evaluation a little tougher where
you have to think outside the box with how you're
going to use a player like that for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
The people that aren't a high technik Milan and I'm
not going to necessarily put you in that category, but
I know he's kind of become very divisive I think
in the draft community over the last couple of weeks.
For the people that talk to you around the league
that maybe have some questions about him, what are the
parts of technic bl one game that they worry about.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Just the fact that he's not a true separator and
that comes from good speed but not great speed, and
the fact that he's a good route runner but not
a great route runner. He needs to get better with
terms of setting up his routes, being a little more
sharp with how he attacks the stem and sets up
defensive backs. But you know what, he's a ball winner.
(36:23):
He is, you know, like t Higgins was kind of
like that two coming out ran a four five nine
at the forty yard dash at the combine speed wasn't
his game, but he wins consistently because of the catch
radius and his ability to attack the football. When you
watch McMillan, you rarely, if ever see the ball get
into his chest. You rarely see it reach his body
(36:43):
because he's catching everything out in front, and he will
make catches at his shoe tops. He will make it.
He'll go up in the clouds, climb the ladder, bring
it down. So I'm gonna bet on a guy like that,
even though I wish you were a little bit faster.
I wish the separation skills, the route running polish were
a little bit better. But I'll bet on a guy
that has the ability to be a ball winner consistently
(37:06):
and has the flexibility. And you see the volleyball background,
the basketball background with him, so I'd be willing to
make that bet. Now, you prop him into last year's class,
and he would have been my what fifth receiver in
last year's class? Would He would have been behind Marvin
Harrison Junior and my league neighbors, Roma Dunes, and then
(37:27):
Brian Thomas. All four of those guys were top fifteen
players in last year's draft. This you drop tet into
that mix and he's my fifth receiver, so you know,
just in terms of understanding the context. But it's still
a good player. Still is someone that not everyone's going
to be high on. But you understand why the teams
that are. You understand how they arrived at that arrived
(37:48):
at that point.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
How universal is it or is it not universal at all?
Who the top tight end is in this class? And
what's that debate like when you talk to people?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, see, and I don't even think it's a debate.
It's more of a what do you want? You know,
do you want the h know? With Colston Loveland, you
have a guy that is I think the more more upside,
but more question marks in terms of him staying healthy,
just an overall route tree him as a blocker, like
you see the vision with Colson Loveland and how good
(38:19):
of an athlete he is. I think he can be
a real big playmaker in the NFL. Uh, But it
takes a little bit more faith and projection with him,
where with Tyler Warren you saw what he did and
what he meant to that Penn State offense this year.
A very clean player, He's not He's not a dominant
blocker by any means. I don't think like sometimes I
(38:40):
think he gets painted as that where he's an okay
blocker and a little bit better than Colston Loveland. But
and then also as a as a pass catcher, he's
he's a good athlete, not a great athlete, not quite
like Colston Loveland, but he catches everything. And you just
know what you're getting with Tyler Warren, So a higher
floor or you're going for the higher ceiling. And I
(39:00):
think that's where the debate comes with these two tight ends,
just which one, which one would you rather have? And
I leaned I usually I leaned towards stepside I usually do.
With this situation, I leaned a little bit more towards
the higher floor with Tyler Warren just because the injury
stuff this year that Colson Loveland dealt with bothered me
a little bit. But both these guys are top ten,
(39:22):
top twelve type of players in the draft.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
So when's your seven round mock dropping?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
What is that coming next week? And I've ho it going,
you know, I thought I was in a good spot,
but then I really trying to figure out what to
do with Shador is the is the thing, you know,
just talking to people the last few days. I have
a lot. I've had a lot of conversations with people
talking about the Beast and so, you know, talking with
(39:47):
people in the league about, hey, well, well I've have
you what do you think a shutter is going to go?
And I tell you it's there's no consensus. Nobody knows,
nobody has a good feel for it. Some still think it.
I could see him going third to the Giants, but
other teams or other guys, other scouts are like, he'll
still be there in the twenties. And so it's it's
(40:08):
gonna be a lot of fun on draft night, which
honestly I'm here for. I don't care if I get
it right on my mock draft. Give me the drama,
give me the fun of the draft, and that always
makes for some good TV and a good time, and
that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
So finally drought me some names. And obviously this can
change by the time it's final. Give me some names
of players or a feel for what you think this
Giants draft might look at as you put your seven
round mock together.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Trying to figure ou where I'm gona give the quarterback.
You know, spoiler, I do think it'll be Abdul Carter
at third a third overall, But then where do they
get the quarterback? And how do they do it? They
just stick and pick at thirty four? Do they try
to move around a little bit? And which one will
it be? I think just trying to figure out the
musical chairs of quarterbacks. Where's Jalen Millroe gonna go? Wheres
(40:54):
Tyler Shuck going? Again the Chador conversation. So I will
be giving the Giants a quarterback. It's just as I'm
not one hundred percent sure how exactly am I go
about it. Still have a few more phone calls to
make and try to figure out just where teams are leaning,
because again, the Giants aren't going to tell me what
they're gonna do, but other teams will tell me what
they think the Giants are gonna do, and so that'll
factor into ultimately where I go. And then in third round,
(41:17):
is it gonna be a running back? Is it gonna
be a defensive tackle? Several different ways we could go,
but yeah, I think it's gonna be an interesting process
as I go through. That'll be my focus here the
next three days. Try to knock that out and it'll
be up next week.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
On the athletic Yeah, look, I think picks at sixty four,
ninety nine and one oh five day and those that's
like the meat of this draft right where you're gonna
get pretty good value. And I think you can find
starters in such a deep draft at those spots if
you pick the right guys, and frankly, you attack the
right positions based on the deep ones we've talked.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
About, right, right, And that's the thing is, you know,
you you lay out the needs obviously, but it doesn't
always end up. It's not like, Okay, need one is this,
so that's where they go in the first round, need
two is this? Okay, that's where they going in the
second round. Like that's just not how it works realistically,
and so you try to maximize value with being realistic
about Okay, there's some breadcrumbs here I could see. You know,
(42:09):
this is a team that traditionally does it this way,
and so you try to factor in all those trends
and everything like that. And that's obviously easier said than
done putting together a mock like that, but you know,
you try your best, trying to make it as realistic
as possible.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
All Right, Finally, as we say goodbye here. Dan gave
me two or three Dame Brugler pet cats that you
like a lot better than maybe some other people in
the draft.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Definitely a few. You know, I mentioned Tory Horton. He's
one of those guys for me. Ironically, I like a
lot of Oregon guys this year, and it starts with
Derek Harmon at the top. He's not really a sleep
or anything like that. He's going to be a top
twenty player. But you know, I mentioned Jordan James. I
like a lot Terrence ferguson the tight end should is
a top one hundred pick to me all day. I
(42:52):
think he's a better player than what we've seen so far.
His best football is ahead of him. Jamari Caldwell for
the other defensive Townckle, who's got a fun story as well.
People can read up on that in the Beast. So
a lot of Oregon players. I'm pretty high on Dylan Fairchild,
the guard from Georgia who you know we Jared Wilson's
(43:14):
going to go early. Tate Ratletch is going to go early.
Don't forget about Fairchild. He's to me. I see a
lot of Wyatt Teller there and that's you can get
a guy like that late third, early fourth round. Still
has some developing to do, but at his peak on
a film, he looks like Wyatt Teller, and so I
like him quite a bit more than I think most people.
(43:35):
But yeah, I think you laid it out second round,
third round, fourth round, a lot of starters in that range,
and so it's gonna be hard to give up one
of those picks to move up in a trade. So
I think there's a good chance we might see the
Giants state pat and say, let's let's build up this
roster with more starters and you know, help we can
find the quarterback along the way.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, I feel like there's not going to be that
many trades. Teams don't seem like they're looking to trade
up a lot in this draft, correct.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I would lean that way. I think the only thing
that might change at is I don't think the asking
prices will be as much, just because you know, if
I'm picking at twenty five and a team at thirty
or thirty three is looking at trade up, you know,
I don't know that the asking price will necessarily have
to be high because the player you're looking at at
twenty four you're think of looking at thirty three and saying, well,
(44:23):
it's kind of the same player, so kind of the
same grade. So if the asking price is a late
third or fourth, you know, maybe teams will be willing
to do it that way. So that's the only way
I see a lot of trades if the asking prices
aren't as expensive as traditionally we're used to seeing.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Dame promote whatever you want to promote, my friend.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Well, it's all about the Beast, right, I mean, that's
the it's on the Athletic. You have your subscription, then
you can you know, see the micro site and all
the different ways that we have the Beast incorporated on there.
If you want to proun the PDF, you can do
it that way. It's the most comprehensive draft guy you
have out there. There's no other resource that has testing
I verified testing information for over twenty six hundred players.
(45:03):
You know, just all the backstories, some stuff in there,
some good nuggets you're not gonna find anywhere else. So
make sure you have this as a resource guide for
you the next two weeks and then obviously all through
draft weekend.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
You should be very proud Dan. As always, it's fantastic work.
It's a literally a year worth of labor for you.
I know it starts again in what two or three weeks,
and then you start on next year's version. You should
be really proud of yourself. You do a great job,
and I hope you know how much everyone in this
community appreciates having that handbook handy over the next couple
of weeks. Man, great job.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
No, I appreciate that. Thank you for saying.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
John Dan Brugler from The Athletic, thanks for joining us
on the Giants Little Podcast, brought to you by Citizens,
the official bank of the Giants. We'll see you live
from the Hacketsack Mariney Health Podcast Studio. Keep getting better
next time on the Johnsttle Podcast
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hulet's go, Let's go,
Let's go, Gians, get out on the Giants. Moubbul give
me some job. Part of the Giants Podcast Network. Let's
welcome to a new edition of the Giants Little Podcast,
brought to you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants.
John Smoke with you live from the Hackensack Murty Health
Podcast studio. Keep getting better. We've dragged them out of
the hole. He's reduced himself to his family and his children.
(00:24):
The Beast is complete and now he's just doing hits
all over the place. And we've seen him on a
bunch of different hits already. We thank him for joining
us on our Humble Giants podcast today. Part of the program,
the one and only Dane Brugler. Dane, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm doing well. It was been a cool few days
hearing on the feedback about the Beast and how much
people are enjoying the new interface this year with you know,
still the PDF if someone wants to download it that way,
but we have a new kind of micro site for
it this year, easy navigation. You can search for any
player you want. There's over twenty six hundred players with
(00:58):
full testing information on there, and of course you know
the reports for over four hundred guys, all the cool
stuff that I think people have grown to know the
Beast for with the backstories and the testing information and
all of that. So it's been it's been really fun
to you know, whether it's you know, I get a
text from somebody in the league or all the cool
responses on Twitter or all that kind of stuff. It's been.
(01:20):
It's been a fun few days here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah. The micro site is awesome and you have to
be a member of the Athletic in order to check
that out. To make sure you guys, go subscribe to
the Athletic. It is a great service. Go check that out.
And you know it's funny. I heard you on the
Athletic Football Show, which you'll be on now the rest
of the way heading up to the draft now with
Robert Mas and the crew and Derek Lass and they
do a great job. And you know, Robert was talking
about I'm old school, you know. I have my PDF
(01:43):
on my desktop and I still print them out and
I sent it to the printer yesterday Dan and they
print around like ten of them for people around the
building and they're gonna have them, and I love having
that next to me for the next month or so.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Just you know, I fought for that. I had to
fight for that because I know there's a lot of
people that want to have their printed version, and they
I think there's some people that would like to see
this go all digital, but I said, no, we've got
to do make sure there's a PDF version so it's
easy to print, easy for people to have that hard
copy if that's the direction they want to go. So
(02:16):
I'm glad we were able to make that happen and
hopefully we keep that going.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, and by the way, I want the reason I
hesitated before we started today. I wanted to pull out.
And I not sure if this is the first one
you did, but it's the first one I have printed.
This is twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was this the most a decade ago. I mean,
if we're technically speaking, the first one I ever did
is my freshman year dorm room back in twenty and five.
Technically speaking, I have that somewhere. I don't know if
I ever actually printed it, maybe just living in a
word document on my computer, but yeah, I mean that
was that was probably one of the first ones that
(02:50):
I like actually kind of dressed up and they made
public and available. Yeah, there's a point in like twenty
thirteen where I was just kind of giving it away
and saying, hey, look, this is because when I started
doing it, it was I wanted to be with the team,
and like, hey, this is my resume, this is what
I'm either psycho or I have a real passion for this,
because look this is what I put together. Possibly, but yeah,
(03:12):
and hey, that opened a lot of doors for me
around the league. And but you know, I kind of
enjoyed being on the media side now of doing this
and being able to share all this information with with
the all the all the draft fans out there. It's
it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That is Laramie tunsel Sands gas mask. I believe I'm
on the cover there, So yes, all right, so let's
get to it. I really enjoyed the the humble brag,
and you're one of the most humble people I know,
so I love the humble brag. During the Athletic Football Show,
I happened to be texted with Ian Rappaport about you
know how we think this draft is gonna go, which
which I love. By the way, and I want to
(03:48):
try to get some intel from you, because teams right
now are starting to finalize their boards right The Giant
scouts are here, They're in the building. They've been upstairs
for the past week trying to finalize what the board's
going to look like. I'm not sure the teams are
done yet, but I'm sure a lot of the work
is close to complete. What's your feel right now for
what scenario the Giants are going to be looking at
picking third overall?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So two weeks out, you know, obviously this could change tomorrow,
let alone, you know, in two weeks, but with what
we know right now, sure feels like, okay, cam Ward
would be that number one overall pick to the Titans.
I mean, and I think that was pretty clear at
the combine was cam Ward was going number one. It
was more of a question are the Titans gonna stick
and pick or could we see some trade action up there?
(04:29):
And they're gonna it. Sure seems like they're gonna stay
and pick. And you know, with the first year general
manager Mike Burgonzi, you just never know. But it makes sense.
It gives them an avenue to a quarterback, you know,
a type of guy that a lot of teams would
bet on. I think if you are available at two,
the Browns would draft him. If you're available at three,
the Giants would draft him. So no mystery why cam
(04:51):
Ward is gonna be the number one overall pick. And
then at two the Browns certainly are a wild card
because we know they need a quarterback, and we know
they need offense really in the worst way. They were
thirty second in the league in offensive scoring last year,
thirty second and third down conversions. So do they go
with one of these quarterbacks? Do they look to trade down?
I think Travis Hunter is the way you go. He's
(05:12):
the best player in this draft, in my opinion, and
he gives you the best of both worlds because he
can be a big time corner, but he also gives
you a little bit of life on offense as well.
So I think Travis Hunter would be the pick of two,
and that leaves the Giants at three with the other
quote unquote elite prospect in this draft being Abdul Carter
sitting there for them. And you know, we know maybe
(05:34):
pass rush isn't number one need on this team. You
know it gave Burns all that money last year and
then you still have Kevon Thibodeau on this team. But
when you have a chance, I think when you're picking
top three, top five, you draft players, not positions, and
when you have a chance to draft a difference maker,
you do it. And so I right now, with where
we're sitting, Abdul Carter at three to the Giants, to
(05:56):
me makes the most sense.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I think it does, too, Danum, with you, I
don't think you can make the case for a position
player over Abdul Carter. I just I don't see it.
I love Mason Graham as much of the next guy,
but just physically, I can't sell myself on him over Carter.
Ashton Gent's a running back. I can't sell myself on that.
And then the only the guy looking at is is
should war Sanders because quarterback is such a big need.
(06:20):
But you wind up with what number thirty four on
your big board.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, And I've been pretty consistent about kind of you know,
like going back to my mid season top fifty around Halloween,
he was like twenty five or something around there. I
mean he's kind of always been that late one, early two. Like,
for whatever reason, you can't like Shadar Sanders. You have
to love him or hate him, and I am here
to say you can just like him. You know, it's
(06:44):
okay to just think he's a good quarterback. You like him.
I just wouldn't drafted him top five, and I think
there are plenty of other teams that look at him
in a similar way.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Have you found any teams that have told you we
would pick him in the top five or top ten?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
No, but I think there's you know, there are plenty
of teams that maybe haven't done the level of work
that Joe Shane is. I mean, we know how much work.
The Giants haven't been necessarily coy about the amount of
work they've put into the Colorado quarterback. So nobody knows
him I think better in the NFL than Shane and
his staff in that front office, which you know, really
(07:24):
put it this way, like I don't The Giants obviously
aren't going to tell me what they're going to do,
but I can tell you what other teams think the
Giants are going to do, and they lean towards a
non quarterback there at three, and if that happens, then
we're on Shador watch. You know, where does he land
at that point? Nine to the Saints are a possibility,
(07:44):
but I don't see that happening. I would be surprised.
And so we were talking to Steelers in the twenties,
are we going to talk about could the Giants potentially
trade back up into the second round? You know, you
think about the Texans the Vikings somewhere twenty four to
twenty five and get Shador there. Same thing with the Browns.
The Browns could be in that conversation as well. So
(08:05):
I think it's the first round is going to be
really interesting in a big part because of everyone's gonna
be curious where Shador lands.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Now, I'm with you. One last question on Shaudor before
we move off of it. Your specific evaluation of him,
and I've heard people describe him, and I think most
of it's accurate. You know, good, solid arm, accurate, tough,
good in the pocket, good decision maker, doesn't make a
lot of mistakes. But then everyone always throws in processing
and Dan, I gotta be honest with you, I don't
necessarily see that myself. Now, I'm not a quarterbacks coach,
(08:36):
I'm not an offensive coordinator, so I don't think I'm
qualified to see that. But for a guy that holds
the ball so long in a very simple offense. I'm
not sure I see the processing part of it, do you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And I think that's fair because there are times where
you do see it, but there's a lot of other
times where you don't. Where he's he's taking extra hitches
and it's he's not trusting the pocket and he's quick
to just dump it off and not let the routes
develop and let these different route combinations come to life.
So it's something where and you wonder how much of
(09:07):
it is scar tissue because he has played behind a
bad offensive line, and is that how much does that
play in part of him drifting? And there are some
snaps where he's just going in reverse and the tackles like, yes,
it's a blow average offensive line, but the tackles can't
do anything about that. Some of these sacks are on
the quarterback. And I just keep coming back to with
Shadoor Sanders, like he didn't play in a very good
(09:29):
conference in terms of just overall defensive talent and the
three best defenses he faced Nebraska, which is a Big
Ten team, Kansas State and BYU those are the three
defense best defenses he faced he struggled against all three,
and so again, I like Shador Sanders, I just don't
necessarily see a guy that's going to elevate my entire
(09:51):
offense and help lead us to the playoffs. And you know,
I think most teams see it that way, but it
only takes one team to say, hey, we're going to
roll the dice on him and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
And I think we're on the exact same page on that. Now.
I would like to walk out of this if I
was a Giants general manager. Thank God for the organization
I am not. I would love to walk out of
this draft with either Tyler Shuck, Jalen Morrow somehow Sanders
drops you can throw him to the mix two how
or Jackson Dart? How early? Am I gonnat to pick
one of those three quarterbacks? Is there any shot one
(10:23):
of those guys gets to the top round three? Or
am I looking at thirty four or bust?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I'd be surprised. I think all there's a good chance
all five of the top five quarterbacks this year they
go in the top sixty. And so if cam Ward
goes one and then he might be the only quarterback
that goes in the top you know, twenty picks and
then the late twenties are going to be interesting with Shador,
Jackson Dart, Tyler Shuck, Jaln Milroe. You know how many
(10:49):
fall to the second round and then you know, could
any of them fall further than sixty I would be surprised.
And so we have the Giants sitting there. I pick
what thirty four? Ye?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Thirty sixty five?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right, so you have an opportunity to do you package
those picks to go up and get one of these quarterbacks?
Do you just stay put in thirty four and see? Okay,
could a Jackson Dart be there? Could Tyler Schuck get
past the Browns at thirty three? You know, do they
love one of these secondary quarterbacks enough to go make
(11:21):
a splash? I think you could make a case for
all of them. You know, with Jackson Dart, you like
the physical tools, that competitiveness and intangibles are off the charts.
We know the Giants have done a lot of work
on Dart. I think it's just gonna take time. You know,
there's a lot of things that he did and that
lank off and offense that he's just not gonna be
asked to do in the NFL. It's gonna look very
very different. And that doesn't mean he can't do it.
(11:43):
It just means it's more of a projection. And that's
you know, I understand taking a chance on that when
we're talking a day two pick. It's a little riskier
when we're taking them in the first round. But the
Giants are kind of in a place where they might
have to gamble a little bit, and I think you
feel better about not gambling with that top three pick,
but maybe with that second rounder. That's where he let's
(12:05):
take a shot. You know, we can't just sit and
wait and hope the next great quarterback falls to us.
Let's be aggressive. We like Jackson Dart the most, Let's
go get him. And so it might take a little
bit of a trade up, but it seems like that's
maybe the more likely scenario for this team.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I think Milroe is interesting just because we know
how ty Brian Dable is with Nick Saban, who obviously
knows him very very well from Alabama, so I think
they'll have great intel on Milroe too. In terms of
and I think bringing in those two Vets Dane, it
gives you the luxury of not having to use him
right away. And frankly, I'm not even sure. I don't
think any of the quarterbacks they would draft this year,
if it's not cam Ward, would beat out Russell Wilson
(12:44):
early in the year. I just don't think they're gonna
be able to do it. So why not draft a
guy that might take some time to develop. You have
good intel on him from Sabin. Maybe you can develop
a package for him early and still use his running
ability and some of his other tools as an athlete
early in his career. That to me something that seems
like it could be very plausible at thirty.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Four, Yeah, no doubt, And especially with Milroe and his
ability to use his legs to impact the offense, I
think that you go back to what he did this
past year. Twelve of his rushing touchdowns were ten plus yards.
That's the most of a quarterback in the last twenty
five years. Lamar Jackson came close. He had eleven back
in twenty seventeen. But talking about an explosive player and
(13:25):
how and it's not he has long speed, but his
speed is so sudden and immediate that's he's immediately causing
defensive pursuit angles to just fall apart, and so that's
his trump card that really gets him out of jams
and helps him. And he's so explosive through the air
as well. Sixteen passing touchdowns this year and average thirty
(13:47):
six point six yards per touchdown. That's crazy, and that
speaks a lot to his ability to push the ball downfield. Now, again,
to your point what you're saying, it's going to take
time with him. He is very undeveloped when we talk
about just the feel in the pocket, and that's something
that some coach you have. Some coaches they'll tell you
you can't really teach that. That's something that you're born
with or you're not. Other coaches will tell you, we
(14:09):
can improve it, we can get him better at that.
And so if you really focus on the Georgia tape,
the Wisconsin tape, you're gonna look at Jalen Milroe and say, hey,
this is a worthwhile investment. But if you're focusing on
the Oklahoma tape, the Michigan tape, it's gonna be like,
all right, maybe let's this might be a little too
rich for taking him here in the top thirty five picks.
(14:29):
Let's wait and see if he falls to us in
that early third.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Toddle up, get in here. If you're lined up here,
you gotta go over the middle with at the score great.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I don't know, but Citizens does makes sense of your
money with Citizens Official Bank of Eli Manning. All right,
I want to hit a couple more positions to your
dan defensive tackle. I'm calling it kind of the defensive
tackle hole and it shows up on your big boar too.
You have Walter Nolan at thirty one. I think both
of us think he could go a lot higher than
that based on the word teams think about him. Then
(15:00):
you have Shamar Turner all the way down to fifty six.
The only player in between those two is tay Leak
Williams at forty. So where the Giants are picking a
thirty four, you could be wiped out there defensive tackle
until you're getting the third round players. So do you
see that third round of less one of those top
DT's you know, Grand Harmon or Nolan or one of
those guys, or even Williams to an extent drop to
(15:22):
the Giants at thirty four? Are you better off just
waiting til the third round to try to get Dexter
Lawrence's running mate there.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I think so, And it's not a bad strategy
when you think of the look at the defensive tackle,
the talent that's going to be on the board. It's
one of the deepest positions this year. So if you
don't love say Tayleerk Williams, in which I would have
no problem taking. He's a top forty pick in this draft.
So if you take him at thirty four, totally fine
with it. Maybe he doesn't give you enough pass rush
(15:49):
for what you want out of a defensive tackle that early,
but one of the most dominant run defenders in this draft.
But you can wait until the third round, fourth round,
and I think you feel good about the play you're getting.
I mean, Shamart Turner could very easily be there in
the early third round and be a guy that they
look at and say, okay, we he's one of those
players that you know, the aggressive way he likes to
(16:12):
play you, you don't necessarily you know it might bother
you if you're another team, but when he's on your team,
it's like, all right, this is the type of guy
that we can win with. And you know whether he's
some some questionable calls or anything like that. We anybody
that's watched Texas A and M's defensive line knows exactly
what I'm talking about. But Shamart Turner has a lot
(16:35):
to him that will play at the NFL level. So
I think a guy like that Ty Robinson from Nebraska,
you know. Uh, there's a lot of defensive tackles in
this class that I think will fit maybe what they're
they're looking for. And it could be at thirty or
in the third round, at sixty five, could be in
the fourth round because this defensive tackle class is gonna stretch.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah. TJ. Sanders, the guy that maybe top of the
third round could could could maybe be there with me
on that. And it's funny you bring up Tyler Gims
and I'd be fine picking you at thirty four to two.
And the case I've been making here, Dan is that
in a draft like this where if you're picking outside
the top three, don't try to get fancy and shoot
for a star here. If you have somebody that you
think is gonna be a good player, even if it's
at a boring position, just take the guy and you're
(17:17):
gonna be happy. Delan Jeremiah made me feel better about
my take because Jeremiah tweeted out earlier today he's talked
to three or four executives and they called this a
starter draft. You can find starters, just don't try to
find stars. So I think, you know, you talk about
the running back class bndep, this is just going to
be a draft where find a good football player that
can help you in a spot and just be happy
about it. Don't try to you know, focus on need,
(17:38):
focus on you know, star hunting, and I think you'll
be okay.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Well that's what if you're the Giants. And like, I
get it, Giants fans are they're not happy about picking
third in a draft where they're kind of boxed out
of a quarterback. And like if they had a third
pick overall last year, you have Drake May third overall pick.
This year, there's no quarterback for you. So I understand
why Giants fans are upset about. But hey, it could
be worse. You could be the fifth pick, the sixth pick,
(18:04):
the seventh pick, and you're missing out on that top
tier of players, that second tier. Like I like Mason Graham,
but he's not Quinn Williams. You know, he's not Jalen Carter.
You're missing out on what I think you usually think
of a top ten pick. But for the Giants, you
have a chance to get aut Duel Carter there. You
have a chance to get a difference maker or whether
(18:24):
that's Travis Hunter. If Abdull Carter goes too and then
you steal with that second round or third round or
fourth round, you feel like you're getting starters at that
point because one hundred percent agree the first round is
not going to really blow you away in terms of
overall talent relative to other years. But the second round,
third round, fourth round, there's a lot of starters in
that mix, especially at the defensive line. Running back. It's
(18:47):
been funny to see how many how much work the
Giants have been doing at running back position, and how
that's a position we could see them maybe address earlier
than a lot of people think. But it's one of
those positions is that there's a lot of them in
this class, and if the right one's on the board
at thirty four, maybe it's a direction they go there.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
All right, I was gonna go to edge, but you
brought up running back, so let's go there. I just
recorded something with Nate Tye, your old comrade from the
Athletic Football Show, and there was some RJ. Harvey slander,
So I'm going to allow you to try to Yes,
there was a little bit of slander. There was a
little bit of slander. It was honestly, you board just
like I'm not as high in Harvey as everybody else.
(19:27):
So I consider that slander and that's fine. I'm also
a big RJ. Harvey. I think he's really really good.
Where do you think the Giants are looking to complement
Tyrone Tracy? Are they looking for a bruising running back
to take some of the early down work away from
him or are they looking for that explosive, fast guy
to give you some of that more third down type
(19:48):
of explosion. Because the great thing about this running back
class day, both types of guys are out there. You
can find both.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh yeah, no doubt. And that's why I don't know
that they're necessarily entering the draft with an idea of
we have to get this style of runner, because I
think you can make the case they could go either way.
I agree, you know exactly, I think you could. Why
can't you have two explosive backs in the backfield? You know,
why can't you. But if you want to go maybe
the more traditional route where you have the thunder and
(20:16):
lightning with more of it, a Pounder and a Damien
Martinez or you know, I love Jordan James. Jordan James
for Oregon is one of my favorite players in this draft.
He's not gonna get you a break off a sixty
yard run, but he's gonna get you six consistently because
of the way he runs. It's no nonsense. It's okay,
block it up for me. I'm going to hit the
hole and I'm gonna get you five six yards every time,
(20:37):
so I can win with that. Give me the guy
that has a nose for the sticks. Not a home
run hitter, but he's going to lead the league in
doubles and that's perfectly fine for me, and I think
it'd be a great fit for what the Giants are
with Tyrone Tracy and maybe what they want to be
on offense. But yeah, if they want to go with
a more explosive back, and you know whether that's you know,
(20:58):
to me, R. J. Harvey falls in that category being
explosive back, a guy that creates consistently. There's so many
different shapes and it's it's it's ice cream, right. All
the ice cream is good, but everyone has their own
separate favorite flavor, and all these running backs have something
to offer. It's just you know, what's your flavor? What
kind of back are you're looking for? And there's a
(21:18):
lot of different ways you could go in this class,
And so could it be you know, Caleb Caleb Johnson
reunite him with Ladzell Betts from the Iowa days. You
can go that direction. If Mary and Hampton were to
slip through the first round, be there at thirty four?
Could that be a direction that they go? So I
don't I think they're going to take a running back,
but I wouldn't say it's absolutely going to be in
(21:41):
the first three rounds or it's going to be. There's
a lot of different ways they can attack this position.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
And this might seem like a counter factual to some people,
but I think running backs might end up slipping in
this draft Dan just because they have to say to themselves, well,
we can get one later. Why would we use a
premium pick on one?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Well, and there's so many of them that it's just
bound happen. Where guys that have third round grades are
available in the fourth. I just you know Jordan James.
To me, he's a third round player. But if he's
available in the fourth, it wouldn't be a huge surprise
because there's so many of these guys that there's only
so many teams that will draft a running back in
the top one hundred this year, whereas that list will
(22:18):
expand once we get to Day three and even in
the so there will be guys available in the sixth
who have fourth and fifth round grades. It's just how
it's going to happen. Because the sheer volume of running
backs we have here, it's a numbers game, and so
that will be interesting to see who might end up
with a big steal, likely somewhere on Day three with
one of these running back.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Now I'm with you, all right, So let's jump to
the edge spot here. Dan, I'm curious talking to teams
because I spent the last two or three days just
trying to order my edge players. And I'll bring on
my sheet here. I haven't broken down by position. Trying
to order my edge rushers from edge rusher number five
to edge rusher number ten has been like a night.
(23:01):
There's like something different and maybe something a little bit
wrong with all of them, but they all have traits
that you get excited about talking to teams. Isn't it
as chaotic? You think talking to teams, how they rank
and group that second group of vegges. Once you get
past Abdul Carter and maybe just Abdul Quarter, tell me
when that kind of next group starts.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Oh yeah, there's no doubt. I mean, and I am
constantly trading, you know, or showing my notes with scouts
and saying like, hey, what do you think of this,
like this stack, and like he's telling me his stack,
and we kind of trade ideas. And it's very very diverse.
I mean, there's so many different opinions on what these
pass rushers are. You know, some believe in a guy
(23:42):
like Mikel Williams from Georgia. Others want nothing to do
with Mikel Williams, at least in the first round as
that type of guy, a top five ed rusher in
this class. Same thing with Shamar Stewart from Texas A
and m He's got a lot of fans around the league.
He's also got a lot of detractors who are looking
at the one and a half sacks and maybe you're
not ready to bet high on that athletic potential. And
(24:04):
so there's a lot of different opinions on these guys.
And then once you get to that second round when
we're talking J. T. Tuamalu from Ohio State or Landon
Jackson from Arkansas. All a bunch of guys that teams like,
but the order of how they put them is very different.
So I got to a point where I was, I'm
with you, I'm getting stressed out about my edge order
(24:25):
because it's like, all right, well, this guy's my tenth edge,
but this team likes him at five, like that he's
a fifth edge, Like am I over underselling who he is?
And you know, it's just there's but I talked to
another team who has the edge that I have at
ten down there at twelve. It's like, okay, well, maybe
it makes you feel a little bit better about where
I have my guy, but it's I just you come
(24:46):
to the conclusion that this is why the draft is
so much fun, right. It's because two sets of eyes
can see very different things when you scout these players,
and it's the edge class. This year might be the
perfect example of that at the top where after Abdol Carter,
Jaylen Walker, Shamar Stewart, Mike Green, Michael Williams. Like that
(25:07):
order is going to be very different from team to
team depending on who you talk to.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Which Ohio State guy do you like better? I think
I like Sawyer a lot of a little bit better
than Toamalow just because of his hand usage.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
See I'm the other way around. I like Toamalo and
I think he has well. I think that's part of it. Definitely.
I think he has a better floor in terms of
I just know what I'm getting with him. With Jack Sawyer,
you know, I I like Jack Sawyer, but I just
felt like he's not going to give me that consistent
production in terms of the sacks, In terms of the
(25:40):
backfield number. Jack Sawyer didn't have a single tackle for
loss this year that wasn't a sack, you know, like
just that's he he did. He did not. He wasn't
disruptive in the run game, even though he was. I
thought he was a good run defender, but he wasn't
disruptive enough. Where with Tomalow, especially with he did down
the stretch. Jack Sawyer gets all the ton of the
credit and he should what he did against on the
(26:02):
Texas late in that game was tremendous. But Toamalow was
just almost unblockable at certain points throughout the playoffs. He
was a big part of what they did. So, yeah,
I would lean that way. I've got a higher grade
on him. But I think both these guys are Day
two players. And just again, just us talking about these
two players, it speaks to the fact that there's it's
(26:23):
not a right or wrong, it's not a it's just you.
You can see all these guys a little bit differently,
and especially when you factor in scheme and what you
want to do with them, And yeah, it makes his
for some really interesting conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, absolutely, what do you think of the guard class
here on day two? And who are some of the
guys maybe at thirty four? You know, I don't know
if one of those guys out of that top tier
are going to drop down to you. I don't know
how high Booker and Jackson you go to me. Those
are two safe pick players, and I think they'll probably
get pushed up the board. These teams will know what
they're getting with them. But what do you think that
guard market's gonna look like on Day two? Of the
(26:55):
Giants decide to beef up their offensive line.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think it's a pretty solid group. Really. Like Tate
Ratledge from Georgia, I think he's every bit worth a
second round pick. If he weren't injured this year as
much as he was, I think we'd be talking about
him as almost a slam dunk top fifty type of guy.
But you know, the medicals that will be a big
part of it, speaking about why we're not talking about
(27:19):
him as a top as a lock top fifty guy.
I think Jonas Savane from Arizona tackle guard a little
bit of versatility that makes sense. I let me ask you,
how do you think, because there's so much debate about
Tyler Booker right now, and you know, for certain schemes
he's not gonna be a fit, but he will be
for others. His testing was just so historically low, the
(27:42):
ten yards split, the vert all of that, how do
you think he fits in the Giants offense and what
they are looking for guard.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'll be honest with though, I didn't see a bad
athlete when I watched the tape, Like when I watched him,
I didn't say, oh my gosh, this guy is going
to be historically, and he was just look he was
it was a historically. I mean, the workout was not good,
but I thought the position of workouts looked alright, even though.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
The test thing is poor, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
So I think the Giants used a very variable run
scheme last year. I think they did start to lean
into more of that duo stuff later in the year,
which I think would lean more towards what he likes.
But then, you know, we talk about you know, you
mentioned Caleb Johnson is as a connection. Well, if you're
gona bring in Caleb johnson're gonna really outside zone, right,
So then maybe then he doesn't make sense for you.
So they were very variable in the run game last year.
(28:27):
I think Carn Bursilla and Brian Dabule like to like
to keep themselves pretty nimble in that way. So I
have thought about him as a potential pick of thirty four.
But you're right, he's just so scheme specific in terms
of what teams will want and what teams won't like.
If he winds up with the Rams, with the way
they run the ball, that's gonna be perfect.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
But I just don't know, no, and that makes that
makes all the sense in the world. And that's why
when you're trying to find that exact landing spot for him,
it's a little tough because you know, first of all,
there's only so many teams that will draft a guard
in the first round, and then you eliminate all the
outside zone teams and you're left with maybe only a
few options. So if Tyler Booker were to fall a
(29:03):
little bit be there at thirty four, that would be
an interesting spot for him.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, I think it would be too. Do you think
teams see Donovan Jackson as a guard only? You think
some see him as a guard emergency tackle or do
some teams actually see him as a tackle?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Some teams actually see him as a tackle, because I
mean you watch him. His best tape this year is
a tackle. I mean, plain and simple. It was now
going to the NFL A projection is more of a
tackle slash guard. I think more teams see him as
a guard, but they see him have tackle versatility, and
with good reason, with what he did for Ohio State
down the stretch. Now, I'm not as high on Donovan
(29:41):
Jackson as others. I like him quite a bit. I
think he's a top fifty player. I see him more
as a Day two player, though I see him as
a second rounder, whereas there are some teams that look
at him and say, okay, I mean once we get
to the into the twenties, he's going to be a
possibility for us. And so there's definitely some wide ranging
opinions Donovan Jackson as well, all.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, the same way I trouble stacking my edge player's
day and I trouble stacking my wide receivers. Once you
get past I would say the top three guys, maybe four.
I think Golden and egg Buka are level above Burden
for me. I know a lot of people really love Burden,
they have him higher, and that's fine. But once you
get into like the Ohio State, the Iowa State guys,
the Besches, the Tray Harris', the Kyle Williams, I eleman Are,
(30:25):
it gets really really tight very quickly. And is this
when you talk to teams very much like the edge
class where these rankings are all over the place when
it comes to that second group.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Of whiteouts, yeah, for sure. And part of it is
because we have to remember they're all under the same
bucket as receivers, but they're all very different. You know,
you just take the two Iowa State guys. Jayden Higgins
is very different with what he offers and Jalen Noel.
You know, Higgins can be that big, good size X
on the outside, where Noel is more I think he
(30:55):
can play inside outside, but teams are gonna look at
him as probably best in the slot where he can
be a vertical slot. He can work underneath if he
can do these different things. And all those other guys
you mentioned, like Jack Bash is very different with than
some of these other guys. Trey Harris, same thing. Jalen
Royals is maybe a little more versatile. He can work
inside outside, So you know, I certainly understand, you know,
(31:16):
I see it as I actually have Burden as my
third receiver. I just I like a Buka. I like
Burden and a Buka. I like they're just more they're
late ones, and I'm gonna take the guy with the
higher upside as opposed. But if someone's looking for more
of a very well rounded and he's a true pro,
Bukah is your guy all day for sure. And so
(31:37):
I think it just depends on the type of receiver
that you want. And then on day two, it's definitely
a little bit of kind of a grab bag of
I really like Jalen Noel. He's my fifth receiver this year.
I just think he's so explosive. He catches everything. Not
a huge target in terms of catch radius in terms
of you know what the quarterback's seeing, but he catches
everything thrown his way, and he did it consistently throughout
(31:59):
the year. He did at the Senior Bowl, tested off
the charts at the Combine. So it's just like, all right,
I like Jalen Noel throughout the entire process, and it's
just checkbox, checkbox, checkbox. Why am I holding him down?
Like why can't he be a top forty guy? So ultimately,
I think that that's where he ends up.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
If you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man. But if you're
wondering about a long term financial plan, you should talk
to Citizens. Hey, I can also talk long care.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I'd like to learn about Amili routine.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yes, I knew I could help make sense of your
money with Citizens. He has some very lad McConkie like
vibes to me.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, well, and that's why I was just doing a
Patriots podcast talking about Jalen Noel being the Mconkie Maya Kulpa, like,
you know, we passed. We thought he was a slot
only last year, and we probably made a mistake there
by trading away from from him. Let's not make the
same mistake with Jalen Noel because even though yeah, he's
probably best in the slot, but he's not simply a
(32:57):
slot only. He can do a lot of different things
for you, So you.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Are always on top of this. Is it Noel or
is it nol?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Uh? I guess yeah, it's it's probably more nol. I mean, see,
it's funny because when I'm on watching him on tape,
it's just you know, he's number thirteen for Iowa State.
But it is more nol. It is more a way
not to Christmas Noel, It's more, it's more nol. You're right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I've gone back and forth. I keep calling them different dames,
and you're the guy I trust the most. But you
actually talk to these guys. I actually know exactly what
it is. That's why I wanted to ask you because the.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Word yeah, no, it's then that's why you need the beast,
right is the mystery? You have the pronunciations right, there,
you know, and it's it's it's nol think of like
a grassy knoll.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, definitely, all right, excellent, I'm with you. I think
he's he he's my fifth guy after those, after those
top four. I think he's a really really, really good player.
If you're looking for a kind of a Day three
guy that maybe you can develop into something you more
of a is is a Tesla guy, You're more of
a saving on Williams guy, You're more of an armstrong guy.
Is teammate who's that kind of developmental guy? Or maybe
(34:03):
you like the Deantive Thorne out of Tennessee, the really fast,
skinny kid. Who is your favorite like kind of upside
developmental guy in day three.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
If Tory Horton from Colorado State makes it to Day three,
he'd definitely be my answer. And I think he's kind
of the forgotten guy in this draft. The knee injury
mid season. Yeah, and I think back to not this year,
the year before twenty twenty three against Colorado, that epic
Colorado Colorado State game. You know, he just showed out
in that In that game, he was kind of like, Okay, this,
(34:32):
this is why he should be a top one hundred pick.
But then he goes back to school has knee injury,
and I gave him a late third early fourth round
grade just with the medicals, so I could easily see
him go on day two. But if he's still around
on day four or day three in the fourth round,
I would love to add him at that point. Savan
Williams is interesting because of you know, I was talking
(34:53):
to a team about where talking about, you know, how
he would stack these you know, three or four players,
and I include saving On Williams in there, and you know,
he didn't include him in his receiver stack, and I said, oh,
he's not a saving On Williams fan. He's like, oh, well,
he's a running back slash joker for us. So you know,
like he's not even viewed as a receiver for that team.
(35:13):
And it's you understand, understand why watching the tape and
how he was used in a wildcat quarterback and you know,
so many of his targets were within five yards of
the line of scrimmage and they just they manufactured the
touches to get the ball in his hands so he
could go make something happen. And you know, he can
do some things down the field on fades and some
of those you know, just want him to be a
(35:34):
ball winner. He can go do that, but not being
a consistent receiver makes the evaluation a little tougher where
you have to think outside the box with how you're
going to use a player like that for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
The people that aren't a high technik Milan and I'm
not going to necessarily put you in that category, but
I know he's kind of become very divisive I think
in the draft community over the last couple of weeks.
For the people that talk to you around the league
that maybe have some questions about him, what are the
parts of technic bl one game that they worry about.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Just the fact that he's not a true separator and
that comes from good speed but not great speed, and
the fact that he's a good route runner but not
a great route runner. He needs to get better with
terms of setting up his routes, being a little more
sharp with how he attacks the stem and sets up
defensive backs. But you know what, he's a ball winner.
(36:23):
He is, you know, like t Higgins was kind of
like that two coming out ran a four five nine
at the forty yard dash at the combine speed wasn't
his game, but he wins consistently because of the catch
radius and his ability to attack the football. When you
watch McMillan, you rarely, if ever see the ball get
into his chest. You rarely see it reach his body
(36:43):
because he's catching everything out in front, and he will
make catches at his shoe tops. He will make it.
He'll go up in the clouds, climb the ladder, bring
it down. So I'm gonna bet on a guy like that,
even though I wish you were a little bit faster.
I wish the separation skills, the route running polish were
a little bit better. But I'll bet on a guy
that has the ability to be a ball winner consistently
(37:06):
and has the flexibility. And you see the volleyball background,
the basketball background with him, so I'd be willing to
make that bet. Now, you prop him into last year's class,
and he would have been my what fifth receiver in
last year's class? Would He would have been behind Marvin
Harrison Junior and my league neighbors, Roma Dunes, and then
(37:27):
Brian Thomas. All four of those guys were top fifteen
players in last year's draft. This you drop tet into
that mix and he's my fifth receiver, so you know,
just in terms of understanding the context. But it's still
a good player. Still is someone that not everyone's going
to be high on. But you understand why the teams
that are. You understand how they arrived at that arrived
(37:48):
at that point.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
How universal is it or is it not universal at all?
Who the top tight end is in this class? And
what's that debate like when you talk to people?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, see, and I don't even think it's a debate.
It's more of a what do you want? You know,
do you want the h know? With Colston Loveland, you
have a guy that is I think the more more upside,
but more question marks in terms of him staying healthy,
just an overall route tree him as a blocker, like
you see the vision with Colson Loveland and how good
(38:19):
of an athlete he is. I think he can be
a real big playmaker in the NFL. Uh, But it
takes a little bit more faith and projection with him,
where with Tyler Warren you saw what he did and
what he meant to that Penn State offense this year.
A very clean player, He's not He's not a dominant
blocker by any means. I don't think like sometimes I
(38:40):
think he gets painted as that where he's an okay
blocker and a little bit better than Colston Loveland. But
and then also as a as a pass catcher, he's
he's a good athlete, not a great athlete, not quite
like Colston Loveland, but he catches everything. And you just
know what you're getting with Tyler Warren, So a higher
floor or you're going for the higher ceiling. And I
(39:00):
think that's where the debate comes with these two tight ends,
just which one, which one would you rather have? And
I leaned I usually I leaned towards stepside I usually do.
With this situation, I leaned a little bit more towards
the higher floor with Tyler Warren just because the injury
stuff this year that Colson Loveland dealt with bothered me
a little bit. But both these guys are top ten,
(39:22):
top twelve type of players in the draft.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
So when's your seven round mock dropping?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
What is that coming next week? And I've ho it going,
you know, I thought I was in a good spot,
but then I really trying to figure out what to
do with Shador is the is the thing, you know,
just talking to people the last few days. I have
a lot. I've had a lot of conversations with people
talking about the Beast and so, you know, talking with
(39:47):
people in the league about, hey, well, well I've have
you what do you think a shutter is going to go?
And I tell you it's there's no consensus. Nobody knows,
nobody has a good feel for it. Some still think it.
I could see him going third to the Giants, but
other teams or other guys, other scouts are like, he'll
still be there in the twenties. And so it's it's
(40:08):
gonna be a lot of fun on draft night, which
honestly I'm here for. I don't care if I get
it right on my mock draft. Give me the drama,
give me the fun of the draft, and that always
makes for some good TV and a good time, and
that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
So finally drought me some names. And obviously this can
change by the time it's final. Give me some names
of players or a feel for what you think this
Giants draft might look at as you put your seven
round mock together.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Trying to figure ou where I'm gona give the quarterback.
You know, spoiler, I do think it'll be Abdul Carter
at third a third overall, But then where do they
get the quarterback? And how do they do it? They
just stick and pick at thirty four? Do they try
to move around a little bit? And which one will
it be? I think just trying to figure out the
musical chairs of quarterbacks. Where's Jalen Millroe gonna go? Wheres
(40:54):
Tyler Shuck going? Again the Chador conversation. So I will
be giving the Giants a quarterback. It's just as I'm
not one hundred percent sure how exactly am I go
about it. Still have a few more phone calls to
make and try to figure out just where teams are leaning,
because again, the Giants aren't going to tell me what
they're gonna do, but other teams will tell me what
they think the Giants are gonna do, and so that'll
factor into ultimately where I go. And then in third round,
(41:17):
is it gonna be a running back? Is it gonna
be a defensive tackle? Several different ways we could go,
but yeah, I think it's gonna be an interesting process
as I go through. That'll be my focus here the
next three days. Try to knock that out and it'll
be up next week.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
On the athletic Yeah, look, I think picks at sixty four,
ninety nine and one oh five day and those that's
like the meat of this draft right where you're gonna
get pretty good value. And I think you can find
starters in such a deep draft at those spots if
you pick the right guys, and frankly, you attack the
right positions based on the deep ones we've talked.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
About, right, right, And that's the thing is, you know,
you you lay out the needs obviously, but it doesn't
always end up. It's not like, Okay, need one is this,
so that's where they go in the first round, need
two is this? Okay, that's where they going in the
second round. Like that's just not how it works realistically,
and so you try to maximize value with being realistic
about Okay, there's some breadcrumbs here I could see. You know,
(42:09):
this is a team that traditionally does it this way,
and so you try to factor in all those trends
and everything like that. And that's obviously easier said than
done putting together a mock like that, but you know,
you try your best, trying to make it as realistic
as possible.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
All Right, Finally, as we say goodbye here. Dan gave
me two or three Dame Brugler pet cats that you
like a lot better than maybe some other people in
the draft.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Definitely a few. You know, I mentioned Tory Horton. He's
one of those guys for me. Ironically, I like a
lot of Oregon guys this year, and it starts with
Derek Harmon at the top. He's not really a sleep
or anything like that. He's going to be a top
twenty player. But you know, I mentioned Jordan James. I
like a lot Terrence ferguson the tight end should is
a top one hundred pick to me all day. I
(42:52):
think he's a better player than what we've seen so far.
His best football is ahead of him. Jamari Caldwell for
the other defensive Townckle, who's got a fun story as well.
People can read up on that in the Beast. So
a lot of Oregon players. I'm pretty high on Dylan Fairchild,
the guard from Georgia who you know we Jared Wilson's
(43:14):
going to go early. Tate Ratletch is going to go early.
Don't forget about Fairchild. He's to me. I see a
lot of Wyatt Teller there and that's you can get
a guy like that late third, early fourth round. Still
has some developing to do, but at his peak on
a film, he looks like Wyatt Teller, and so I
like him quite a bit more than I think most people.
(43:35):
But yeah, I think you laid it out second round,
third round, fourth round, a lot of starters in that range,
and so it's gonna be hard to give up one
of those picks to move up in a trade. So
I think there's a good chance we might see the
Giants state pat and say, let's let's build up this
roster with more starters and you know, help we can
find the quarterback along the way.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, I feel like there's not going to be that
many trades. Teams don't seem like they're looking to trade
up a lot in this draft, correct.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I would lean that way. I think the only thing
that might change at is I don't think the asking
prices will be as much, just because you know, if
I'm picking at twenty five and a team at thirty
or thirty three is looking at trade up, you know,
I don't know that the asking price will necessarily have
to be high because the player you're looking at at
twenty four you're think of looking at thirty three and saying, well,
(44:23):
it's kind of the same player, so kind of the
same grade. So if the asking price is a late
third or fourth, you know, maybe teams will be willing
to do it that way. So that's the only way
I see a lot of trades if the asking prices
aren't as expensive as traditionally we're used to seeing.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Dame promote whatever you want to promote, my friend.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Well, it's all about the Beast, right, I mean, that's
the it's on the Athletic. You have your subscription, then
you can you know, see the micro site and all
the different ways that we have the Beast incorporated on there.
If you want to proun the PDF, you can do
it that way. It's the most comprehensive draft guy you
have out there. There's no other resource that has testing
I verified testing information for over twenty six hundred players.
(45:03):
You know, just all the backstories, some stuff in there,
some good nuggets you're not gonna find anywhere else. So
make sure you have this as a resource guide for
you the next two weeks and then obviously all through
draft weekend.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
You should be very proud Dan. As always, it's fantastic work.
It's a literally a year worth of labor for you.
I know it starts again in what two or three weeks,
and then you start on next year's version. You should
be really proud of yourself. You do a great job,
and I hope you know how much everyone in this
community appreciates having that handbook handy over the next couple
of weeks. Man, great job.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
No, I appreciate that. Thank you for saying.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
John Dan Brugler from The Athletic, thanks for joining us
on the Giants Little Podcast, brought to you by Citizens,
the official bank of the Giants. We'll see you live
from the Hacketsack Mariney Health Podcast Studio. Keep getting better
next time on the Johnsttle Podcast
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