April 8, 2025 • 33 mins
Queen Amanirenas: The Fierce Leader Who Resisted Rome
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' hosts Vicky and Simon delve into the story of Queen Amanirenas, an iconic ruler from the Kingdom of Kush in ancient Africa. They explore her remarkable resistance against the Roman Empire under Augustus, detailing her leadership, strategic prowess, and the societal and historical context of her reign. The episode highlights archaeological findings and ancient writings that reveal how Amanirenas, despite losing an eye in battle, led her people to a peace treaty that preserved Kush’s independence and laid the groundwork for centuries of prosperity.
Other episodes referenced: Zenobia
00:00 Intro and Banter
01:20 Setting the Scene: Queen Amans and the Roman Empire
03:25 Historical Context: The Kingdom of Kush
05:38 The Rise of Queen Amans
10:28 Conflict with the Roman Empire
13:49 The Kushite-Roman Wars
17:38 Roman Invasion of Kush
17:59 Queen Amanirenas' Resistance
18:42 Strategic Advantages of Kush
20:30 Negotiations and Peace Treaty
21:36 Legacy of Queen Amanirenas
23:07 Archaeological Discoveries
27:40 Comparisons to Modern Leadership
32:30 Conclusion and Reflections
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
video1626693279 (00:08):
One of the podcasts he mentioned, Jackson
on history.
Yeah.
Uh, he's sponsoring GloucesterHistory Festival.
Yeah, he's huge.
He's a really big guy.
Yeah.
Amazing.
I know he's super and I'd neverconsidered us.
I mean, I know it's called shechanged history.
And you talk about history.
Yeah, but I've never consideredthat.
(00:29):
I don't really consider it to behistory.
We're just talking about thepast, which sounds ridiculous.
I know.
But it's like, It's interestingangle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did you got this show on theroad?
I'm ready.
Hi Vicki.
Hi Simon.
How are you doing?
(00:49):
I am very well.
How are you?
Sounds good.
Yeah, very well, thanks.
Yeah, it's sunny.
I've made a cake, fish, pashbush.
I mean, what more do you wantfrom your life?
Yeah, that's the week completed.
Congratulations.
Sounds great.
Lovely.
Well, I've got a story for youtoday.
Yes.
And I, I love this one.
(01:10):
All right.
Badass.
She is badass.
I love it.
Yeah.
I just want you to soak it up.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright, let's go.
Um.
There will be a bit of anexplainer about the geography
and society and politics of thetime and empires.
We're going way back in time.
I have a little intro for you.
(01:31):
the Sands of time often bury thestories of remarkable figures
leaving only faint whispers inthe historical record Among
these forgotten narratives isthat of Queen Amans, a
formidable ruler from AncientAfrica who in the late first
century, BCE, stood against themight of the burgeoning Roman
Empire.
This was a period dominated bythe rise of Augustus, the first
(01:51):
Roman emperor, yet far to thesouth in the kingdom of Kush.
Along Denal Valley, a queenemerged who would challenge
Rome's expansionist ambitions.
While the names of Romanemperors in Egyptian Pharaohs
frequently echoed throughhistory, the tale of our Manus
and her kingdom located in whatis now northern Sudan and
Southern Egypt remains largelyuntold to many.
today we aim to unveil the lifeleadership achievements and
(02:14):
enduring legacy of thisextraordinary queen, placing her
within rich, historical,political, and geographical
context of her time.
I'm excited.
Yes.
Let's go.
Correct reaction?
Yes.
So we're gonna be talking about,um, some dates, around year
zero.
Okay.
(02:35):
I'm gonna be referring to themto as b, c, E.
So before the common era and cecommon era.
Mm-hmm.
Rather than BC and ad.
and there's, yeah, a few littlethings to explain along the way.
And apologies in advance for mypronunciation on some of these
place names, but I will try mydarnest.
Lots of sources.
(02:56):
main ones are.
Oh, let me scroll down.
world History, SARL Tours.
It's an interesting website.
Britannica, a couple of, sort oflibrary resources, history
skills, heritage Daily, and anarticle on Black History Month.
(03:16):
Great.
We'll back them in the shownotes.
Get them in the notes.
Yeah.
Great.
Okay, so we are.
Way back in time.
A thousand, I say, um, about1,070 BCE.
Okay.
My gosh.
And we are talking about the,uh, the Kingdom of Kush, uh,
(03:37):
KUSH, often referred to asNubia, uh, situated and
flourishing along the NileRiver, which is at the time, as
is now really the lifeline andsort of arid landscape of
Northeastern Africa.
this.
Kingdom's history, um, spansover a millennium by the time
(03:57):
that we'll get to it, it's anancient civilization.
Uh, had a long and complexrelationship with its northern
neighbor Egypt.
Okay.
Um, and those sort of marked byperiods of those trade, cultural
exchange, sometimes warfare.
And at one point there was evencushite rule over Egypt as the
25th dynasty.
(04:18):
So he's the emperor, he's thetop dog.
Uh, at the moment I haven't gotto any rulers, just Okay.
It's the, the kingdom, the areaitself.
Itself.
Oh, the itself, the is itselfcalled Kush.
The kingdom is called Kush.
I think Kush, to me Kush is aname.
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
A city being called Elizabeth orsomething.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry.
and yeah, it got independencefrom Egypt around a thousand,
(04:40):
1,070 BCE, Eventually declinedaround the fourth century ce and
over this time it had severalcapital, capital cities, which
just reflected its these shiftsin political power and strategic
focus.
so initially its Capital Citywas a place called Kma,
K-E-R-M-A, and then later duringthe Heitz power in Napita, uh,
(05:05):
became the capital around seven50.
BCE, which is.
Located in Northern Kush, alongthe Nile Significant religious
center.
And it's got these GrandTemples, grand Temple Complex
dedicated to the Godda moon, um,at the sacred mountain of Jebel
Baral.
And it's a bur burial site.
It's, you can really picture it,can't you?
(05:25):
Yeah.
Make sure, local village hall,just, you know, power in
comparison.
Yeah.
Don't go knock in the socialclub, Mike.
That's true.
Sorry.
Sorry.
War Hill.
Um, by the time our soon to besubject of this, uh, queen
scended to power, she came topower around 40 BCE.
(05:48):
Okay.
And the capital had movedfurther south to Mero,
M-E-R-O-E.
it moved there around 590 BCE,and it was a really good
strategic.
Location, offered greatstrategic advantages.
So it gave them a buffer fromNorthern Invaders.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And we'll come on more to thesort of strategic advantages of
(06:09):
the land shortly, but also thisarea, it was really rich in iron
ore deposits and gold had loadsof acacia forests.
So as a result of this, Kush wasrenowned for its, its iron
industry and its skills in ironworking.
They had loads of gold.
they were exceptional.
That.
Gold working.
A lot of things actually youwould normally associate with
(06:30):
Egypt and you hear about withEgypt of the temples.
Yes.
The pyramids, the gold workingthe, I've just read a book on
like excavating in Egypt and Imm-hmm.
It's, um, it's given me allthose vibes.
It was a fantasy book and it'sgiven me all the, oh, all the
tingles.
Yeah.
So it shared a lot ofsimilarities with Egypt, even in
aspects like government,religion, and burial practices.
(06:52):
Uh, but it also had its owntraditions and its own language.
Um, metic script, The Kingdomwas really known for its skilled
artisans, as I said, especiallyin gold and iron working.
And crucially, they controlled alot of trade routes that
connected Sub-Saharan Africawith Egypt and the Mediterranean
world.
(07:13):
So because they were located onthe Nile, they had plenty of
weaponry, they had plenty ofcontrol.
They a powerful kingdom, andthey would control this flow of
trade from south to north.
Gosh, It was a monarchy.
Okay.
so during Amor Anus reign in thelate first century, BCE, the
Kingdom of Kush, it was governedby a monarchy that included not
(07:34):
only kings, but also verypowerful queens.
Mm-hmm.
And they were known by the titleof Candace, C-A-N-D-A-C.
Candace is, we don't actuallyknow the succession practices
of.
That was gonna be one of myquestions.
Yeah.
And kind of the reason we don'tknow about this, a lot of this
story has come from Romanwritings.
(07:57):
so people like Pliny the Elder,Straba, Cassie Steel, wrote
about.
The goings on of the KushEmpire.
But of course, that's from theRoman point of view, from the,
the Kush point of view, it'smostly just archeological finds.
Yeah.
that we've got that inform thestories and maybe give us a
different point of view to theRoman one.
(08:19):
They sort of correlate to theRoman narrative, but then give
us maybe an alternative view ofhow it actually played out the
context.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, me script, we still haven'treally deciphered.
Wow.
So if we do eventually decipherit, then there will be sort of
more to know, more confirmed.
(08:41):
That must be because it's somuch earlier.
It's like 1500 years earlier,isn't it?
It's a lot earlier.
Yeah.
Um, and there's no, we haven'tfound the Rosetta Stone for.
Uh, metic, you know, so theRosetta Notta stone.
Yeah.
Have you heard of the RosettaStone?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah This is a, It's astone that was found engraved in
(09:05):
three different scripts.
It was hieroglyphic, demonic,and Greek, and it was the same
passage in each script.
So that allowed us, because weknew the Greek, we could
therefore figure out thehieroglyphic and demonic script.
So our understanding of EgyptianEgyptian hieroglyphs comes from
this initial translation.
That we figured out from theRosetta Stone and is why we the
(09:28):
hieroglyphs.
And then became, then became DuoLingo.
Then became Duo ultimately.
Yeah.
It was Hieroglyphs demonicGreek, and modern conversational
Italian.
All very cool.
so the, the Candace is thequeens.
so we don't know theirsuccession practices, but what
(09:50):
is not in doubt is the power andrespect given to these royal
women.
They really held prominence inthe Cushite society,
particularly during this meticperiod of around sort of five 90
BCE onwards.
Term Candace is a latinizedversion of a metic term, Kataki
or kaki, uh, which could meanqueen Regent, queen mother,
(10:12):
royal woman.
but they had their own specifictitle and were really regarded,
much like actually Egyptians aswell.
They were held in high esteemand Amman Aus is one of the most
renowned of these canes.
the political climate at thetime of her reign was really
(10:33):
heavily influenced by the riseof the Roman Empire under
Augustus.
So he was their first emperorand he consolidated power.
And then in around 30 BCE,annexed Egypt, following the
defeat of Cleopatra and MarkAnthony.
So this, then with Egyptdefeated it meant that the
Romans were at the border of theKush of the Kingdom of Kush.
(10:54):
Oh.
Because they were below.
So it was like the next onedown.
They were, yeah.
Yeah.
Next one down along the Nile.
Yeah.
and Manor rain is ascended topower probably around 25.
B, CE following the death of herhusband.
Terra take, She inherited thiskingdom that had a long history
of interaction with Egypt.
Okay.
A lot of political and tradeties, but now had this imperial
(11:16):
power right on their doorstep.
Yeah.
and I'll tell what, and she hasto lead through it.
That's her.
And she has to lead through it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, let's go.
It's very, Roman wanted a pieceof that, of, of course they did.
They were unstoppable.
Those pest, they want piece ofeverything, but they do.
That's so greedy.
And it was such, Kush was such acrucial, I wanna say sort of
(11:41):
bottleneck or something, or, uh,yeah, like a, I mean like a
linch pan kind of thing.
Yeah.
In this.
Because it, they controlled allthe trade routes to the South
and they themselves had enormousresources.
and if they were taxing andtaxing and they had the gold,
and it's a power, isn't it?
They're really, it's a realpower.
Power, yeah.
so the name Nubia.
(12:04):
Yeah.
But the Kingdom of Kush was alsoknown by, is thought to come
from the Egyptian word for gold.
NUB New.
I was gonna say, I have heard ofit before.
Yeah.
Is it something we use in modernday as well?
Is it like a phone brand orsomething?
I'm not sure I've heard of itbefore.
Yeah.
Maybe it lives on, it meansgold.
It lives on it.
It basically means gold.
So it's, it's the kingdom ofgold, really.
(12:26):
Mm-hmm.
I said iron ore is a crucialresource, so it's a major center
for iron production earned atthe moner of the iron capital of
Ancient Africa.
And they also had valuableresources at the time, things
like ivory, ebony, animal skins,precious stones.
this is fascinating.
The Nile really was.
(12:47):
The lifeblood.
It provides all this fertileland for agriculture.
It's vital for transportation,for trade, and a source of water
in what is otherwise a, a sortof arid desert climate.
And then you have these,cataracts they're called, okay.
Uh, they're sort of on a river.
You have busters of waterfallsor areas where the river is no
(13:08):
longer like free flowing andthey're an obstacle.
They're basically a stopper inthe river.
They're these natural barriersand that's where trade and
interaction occurs.
And so Nya had had these aroundthere that were sort of focal
points for all of this.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so the Romans have conqueredEgypt.
(13:30):
Sorry, Cleopatra, you're out.
Yes.
A classic move.
Classic.
Absolute.
Classic Roman move.
and although Cush has had thiscenturies long.
History of interaction.
Successful, largely successfulinteraction with Egypt.
Rome comes along, thingsescalate.
It's open conflict.
(13:50):
It's known as the Cushite RomanWars, and this is what largely
defined a Manus is leadership.
So she's part of this longlineage of.
Powerful.
Candace is, these queens of Kushand becomes known for only
having one eye.
Oh, and is that because she's afighter?
(14:13):
Because she's a fighter?
Oh, yeah.
So it's suspected this, theaccounts come mostly from the
writings of a Greek historhistorian, but the most
plausible explanation is thatshe was fighting the Romans.
Defending and lost an eye,which, I mean, this comes up
(14:33):
again and again in our stories,that women are at the forefront.
Like Zenobia, she was at thefront forefront on her horse, on
the camels doing the stuff likethey're not just out pretty on
their thrones, are they?
Yeah.
Like you are in a battle losingan eye.
Yeah.
And she cracks on, carries on.
Yeah.
She's like.
I don't have any pictures ofher, but I'm just imagining a
(14:56):
true sort of African warriorqueen Yes.
Is absolutely indomitable force.
Um, and there's consistency inthe Roman sources, suggesting
that this, that her having oneeye was really notable.
Characteristic Of course.
And anything, and scary, Ithink, right?
Well, exactly.
Yes.
Uh, not in a people, our eyesare scary, but in a, it's a
(15:18):
badge of honor, isn't it?
In a weird way that, yeah.
That's what I was thinking, thatshe's formidable and the
formidable is Yeah.
The word.
Yeah.
And that really emphasized thisformidable nature that she had.
the war, these Cusack Roman war,which spanned approximately 25
to 22 BCE.
So three to four years.
Initially.
(15:38):
Started by the cushite or that'swhat kicked it off.
Okay.
So they went on the attack,well, less on the attack, but
more sort of incursions into theRoman controlled Egypt.
and.
These were likely re response.
So you could say that Romestarted it, these sort of raids
that they did into Egypt.
Now under Roman control weresuspected to be in response to,
(16:02):
Rome's imposition of taxes onthe region, for example, and
just its general aggressiveexpansionist policy of wanting
to take over and dominateeverything so soon escalates
into a.
Initially under a, a Manus, theCushite forces achieved some
success.
Okay?
So they captured key Romanoccupied cities, such as sayin
(16:25):
elephantine and felo.
Mm-hmm.
Um, they also, one of myfavorite bits, uh, in an act of
defiance during one of thesecaptures, uh, a manner.
Cut off the head of a statue ofEmperor Augustus.
Oh my God.
That is like a movie.
Isn't that like a Yeah, that waspart of a, um, uh, like a tomb
(16:51):
building exercise or something,wasn't it?
Like, come on guys.
Did she chops off the head?
Yeah.
Casually, uh, takes it home withher.
Does she?
And buries it under the steps ofher temple.
So it's, that's an odd responseto trauma, isn't it?
It's odd.
(17:12):
I'm just gonna bury that deep.
I did a very similar thing inprimary school, and I love this
idea that they, it's like a signof the victory.
They are now trampling.
They are climbing on the head ofthe romance.
That's what I mean.
Like it is stomping on Yeah.
Hundred percent.
Yeah.
Um, Rome wasn't chuffed aboutthis.
(17:33):
They've been known to get a bitangry, a bit, A bit gy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
the Roman prefect of Egypt, afellow called Gaia Petronius,
led a very strong force intoKush.
Okay.
eventually capturing the capitalnpa mm-hmm.
Um, and establishing or by theformer capital in NPA and
establishing a new Romanfrontier further further south.
(17:55):
Okay.
Uh, but despite this success Aman Aus did not yield.
she did not capitulate.
She continued to lead herforces.
She continued fighting on inresistance against this Roman
occupation.
So she had this real resilience,and especially with the capital
Maro now further south, she hadthis real strategic acumen.
(18:22):
she must have had backing aswell.
You can't just say, we're gonnakeep going.
You can't just say, we're gonnado it, you need Well, it's
especially in such bloodyfighting.
Yeah.
It's interesting they did have,I mean, the Roman Empire is
almost impossibly large andpowerful at this point.
Exactly.
Yeah.
but the Kingdom of Kush did havesome.
(18:46):
Some advantages, and these arethe ones that us really
leveraged.
had a really strategic location.
Yeah.
So the terrain was.
Unusual for the Romans.
They weren't used to fighting inthis sort of terrain.
Uh, they could really, funnelthem down a bit like oppo, I
suppose.
Oh wow.
They had a abundant naturalresources, particularly iron for
(19:06):
weaponry.
Yeah.
So they weren't gonna run out ofweapons anytime soon.
And they were incredibly skilledat, um, this iron work was
forging and they had very, veryskilled archers.
Egyptians called the region TarSetti, which is the land of the
bow.
So not only did they make theseweapons, but they really, my
God, they knew how to use them.
So they were a much smallerforce up against this almost
(19:29):
impossibly large force of theRoman Empire.
But they were skilled.
They were skilled, and theyreally knew what they had.
They really knew how to use, andthis really longstanding
tradition of very strong.
Leadership, including thesepowerful female rulers like
Amus, which I think must havejust GED up the forces.
(19:52):
And if you see your camaraderieYeah, yeah.
Patriotism you.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Matri.
Is that a word?
Oh yeah.
I didn't even notice what I'dsaid.
You're right.
I dunno if that is a word, butwe're, you fell for the
patriarchy.
(20:17):
So this conflict just.
Went on and on for a lot longerthan I think Romans were used
to.
And eventually grinding themdown as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this has really got echoesof Xxi to me.
It eventually led tonegotiations.
Ah, yes.
Which is a tactic in itself,isn't it?
What's that thing called?
(20:37):
Are you grind people down somuch?
Siege warfare.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
Pretty much.
Just until they can't go on anylonger, but augustus stepped in
and negotiated.
Ah, he was willing to negotiateand the peace treaty that they
had was, if anything, quitefavorable to Kush considering
(20:58):
the overwhelming size of theRoman forces.
So they didn't demand a tribute,some sort of sacrifice and they
withdrew from many of theoccupied territories.
What, this is amazing.
So there's something about, am.
Just determination andresilience and because she
(21:18):
would've been in thoseconversations at the forefront.
Demanding.
Yeah.
Eating,'cause it's apsychological game mm-hmm.
As well isnt net warfare.
This is what I mean, women havealways fought.
Yeah, absolutely.
And she was.
This is a world sort ofdominated by male leaders.
Yeah.
Um, but her strength, it was hercourage, her political skill,
(21:39):
her leadership really stood out.
And this resilience that sheshowed in not simply
capitulating against what seemslike an impossible to beat
force, she strung them out forlong enough to get a result that
preserved this cushierindependence.
So they weren't.
They weren't overrun, theyweren't taken over by the
Romans, and they survived aboutanother 400 years.
(22:03):
Wow.
And she established this periodof relative peace then.
Okay.
And trade between Cush and RomanEgypt for nearly 300 years it
went on.
Oh, so she even put in a tradedeal?
Yeah.
They must have really wanted.
Chris for its resources then.
Yeah, yeah.
Resources and the control it hadover those trade routes.
(22:24):
Yeah.
As that court.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've just put in reallythe fact that Rome at the zenith
of its power, um, under thisgreat Augustus would compell to
negotiate a peace deal.
Sort of really underscores thesecomplexities they have of
imperial expansion and the costsinvolved.
(22:45):
Yeah.
If they've got a reallydetermined ponent, these costs
in subjugating them and it, inthe end, the manor rains made it
clear that it was just betterfor the Roman Empire.
Not to try and conquer them, butinstead work with them.
And like you can have ourresources, but you'll pay us for
them.
We'll trade you for them.
I'm right.
Yeah.
This is gonna be, we're notbeing taken over here.
(23:08):
Our understanding of the manoris reign.
And this kingdom of Kush ismostly comes from archeological
findings.
Yeah.
So Au itself has pyramids,temples, you can, they found,
remnants of the iron workingindustries.
So you have this really tangibleevidence of the Cushite
(23:28):
civilization at this time.
They've even found the bronzehead of Augustus.
Buried at Temple.
They found what she buried.
Yeah.
Oh cool.
Yeah.
So it wasn't like a legend oranything.
It was uh, no this is definitelythe head was there.
We've disco it.
Yeah.
(23:48):
Bronze cheese cliff.
It was, but it shows herunderstanding as well of like
symbolic warfare.
Yeah.
It's not just the actual fightitself, but it's this, building
yourself up.
To be even more for formidablethan you actually may be.
Really trying.
That's what I mean.
It's like psychological, isn'tit a game as well,
psychologically as well asphysically.
(24:10):
Yeah.
It's not just who has thebiggest tank, is it?
It is.
You know, all these mini littlepower plays and also the
standing power, like you said,she said, no, you will pay for
our resources.
You're not just taking them.
You will pay.
Yeah.
It's not even like you couldhave a little bit, it's like a
full on, no, this is not howthis is gonna go.
Yeah.
That's so powerful.
(24:31):
And it's, uh, I think we couldall learn a bit of putting in
those boundaries.
Boundaries is the word.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Know your line and stick to it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And that, like, it is quite ascary thing to do, isn't it?
Because it feels like an all ornothing sort of approach.
And if they especially becomesthe, the Roman Empire in one of
(24:51):
its peaks, hopefully we will intime learn more about her brain.
Yeah.
They have found a, a number of,Stella, they're called
S-T-E-L-A-E, which are these bigstone, big stone.
I don't wanna say gravestone.
Gravestones, they're not used asgravestones, but they're that
sort of size.
Okay.
You see massive stone thingsinto which there were
(25:14):
inscriptions made.
Ah, okay.
but it's in the metic languageand there's very little of that
that we.
Currently decipher.
So there's probably a lot moresort of clues and information
about her life to come out.
Yeah.
And to get more of the, have youseen, um, that thing that's
doing the rounds on the internetlimited that someone, in the
Roman Empire complained they gota delivery of copper and then.
(25:39):
They wrote a little scriptureof, um, their complaint about
the grade of copper and itwasn't what they ordered, and it
would've taken them about likesix hours to like carve this
complaint, like chisel it outand.
Oh, I love that, that there's onshow in the British Museum and
it's this, complaint aboutcopper grade or something.
(26:03):
Dear, a so-called Copper Trader.
It works.
So I can always tell when I'mdisgruntled'cause apparently
each of my key taps is like astabbing the keyboard.
I just imagine this guyfuriously.
It's just exactly same the wholeof that time.
I love it.
So funny.
(26:24):
So it'd be great to know moreabout it from the the Kush
perspective.
'cause so much of what we've gotis from.
The point of view of the Romans.
Yeah.
So you, from a time span then,because you said there was like
400 years of peace after that.
Yeah, that would've probablycrossed over into Zenobia's
timeline.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because she was likeSyria against Egypt at some
(26:45):
point and so her, their storiesprobably crossed is my, yeah, a
little guess.
I don't know.
Obviously they probably weren'talive at the same time, but,
Yeah, it's interesting isn't it,that we dunno these women and
we've managed to find in ourvery short lifetime too.
Mm-hmm.
the cross.
And again, with really similarthemes about standing your
(27:07):
ground and sticking to your ownlane, just focusing.
Yeah.
You know, and, and he's clearlypretty well, and both with
success stories.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Well respected.
That's such a good, comparison.
So often she must have been, youcan't go up against the Roman if
you are not.
And she got in there, she wasinvolved, she proved herself.
(27:28):
I mean, it sounds like theirsociety already respected and
held in very high regard, thesequeens, but she was in it.
Yeah.
And it's contrasts for me somuch these days.
There's this idea that femaleCEOs usually get brought in when
they know the company's goingunder.
Yeah.
It's called the glass cliff,isn't it?
The glass cliff.
(27:48):
That's it.
There's a bit of an argumentthat that's happening right now
with Rachel Reeves.
Mm-hmm.
That she was handed a, a, a dogpoo of an economy and you know,
they thought, oh, women would begreat in here.
I don't, it's so hard to, I feela bit funny about that as a,
what do you think about it as atheory?
I.
Um, I'm not con it is thecorrelation causation Yeah.
(28:12):
Sort of aspect.
And I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
I think it's mostlyrepresentative that it's so much
more difficult for female CEOsto get into that position.
Mm-hmm.
And therefore they, maybe moreoften get the sort of lower
hanging fruit, which tends to bethe companies that are on the
downer anyway.
Rather than a deliberate, wellpermit officer that we can blame
(28:33):
it on the woman.
Yeah.
I don't think it's necessarily aconscious decision.
Mm-hmm.
But I think there is some, Ithink there's something in it,
but I'm not sure there'ssomebody sat there being that
foreshadowing in the nicest way.
Yeah.
I don't think they think aboutit that much, which is.
And this is what even worse in away, is what?
(28:57):
Makes me not believe conspiracytheories in general in that I
just don't think people can bethat organized to make these
massive schemes.
I just don't think people arethat good or that clever.
I think it's mostly negligenceand ineptitude.
Yeah.
But then you can try andattribute it to decision making
or a deliberate act, but Mm.
(29:20):
I think rarely it is.
But anyway, queen.
Yeah.
Totally badass.
yeah, that's a reallyinteresting part of history as
well that we don't often hearabout.
So it sounds like the, her storysounds such a, like a little
spark, like such a blip inhistory.
But actually if that led to 400years Yeah.
(29:44):
Like that's from like the tutorsto now.
Yeah.
That is, if you think aboutthat, we've covered the
industrial revolution, we've thedigital revolution, like so much
has happened in those 400 years.
Yeah.
Her reign and her, stamina.
The consequences of it are downto her.
Come on.
That is badass.
That's pretty cool.
It's proper badass.
(30:05):
Yeah, it's very exciting.
So I was, I was really excited.
I can't believe I've almost keptto time.
I, this was really fun to readabout.
Yeah.
All off shoots.
Nice.
I'm very outta your comfort zoneas well.
Yeah.
Not a Victorian scientist, so.
Yeah.
Well than you who knew, not me.
(30:25):
Yeah.
It's been a revelation.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
And then, so when did Kush, dowe know when Kush fell?
'cause it's, yeah, around three50.
Okay.
Three 50 common era.
And it's now, and how did it goto, so it's now split what used
to be Kush is now split betweenEgypt and Sudan.
Yeah.
Okay.
So yeah, maybe we can get likean old map or something of where
(30:48):
it was.
That would be quite cool.
Get an overlay just to rear.
Yeah, definitely.
It kind of makes you wanna learnmore.
It makes you wanna Definitely,yeah.
Yeah.
It just makes me wanna learnmore about all of the.
Because I, I know very littleabout African history.
I know.
Yeah.
But no more about, I mean theEgyptians to me were just a very
long time ago.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Yeah.
Same, same, same, same.
(31:09):
But even to like just talk aboutthe Egyptians is mad'cause it
covers thousands of years.
Mm-hmm.
oh, you say like ancient Egypt.
And think it's a thing.
I always used to think of it.
Oh, like the tutors?
Yeah.
They just came along pyramidsand that was that.
But ancient Egypt, spanned from3,150 BCE to about 30 BC so it's
(31:34):
like over 3000 years.
So it's been in millennia?
Yeah, it was around for 50%longer than the time between
Christ and where we are now.
Oh my gosh.
It's insane, isn't it?
There's all this history inthere.
Yeah, because also history islike dinosaurs.
(31:57):
Egyptians pretty much tutors.
Victorians now.
Yeah.
All given about equal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Equal.
Henry Yi gets an awful lot ofthat.
Yeah.
If you like compare him to thedinosaurs, you just thought
Henry Yi lived for about 3million years.
(32:19):
This is why we exist.
This is why we're trying to, youknow.
Make our own curriculum, aren'twe?
I hope so.
Before we're taught.
Yeah, definitely.
I hope so.
A nice one.
Hope you enjoyed.
I did.
Yeah.
So much.
I wanna do more.
It's kind of like just a, thatfeels like an appetizer, haven't
we?
It does, doesn't it?
Yeah.
We need to go further.
You go deeper, but I'm excited.
(32:42):
We can do that.
We've got time de fine.
Cool.
Okay.
Thanks very much.
I'm gonna go and decorate acake.
Enjoy.
audio2572508189-1 (32:55):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She changed history@gmail.com.
One of the podcasts he mentioned, Jackson
on history.
Yeah.
Uh, he's sponsoring GloucesterHistory Festival.
Yeah, he's huge.
He's a really big guy.
Yeah.
Amazing.
I know he's super and I'd neverconsidered us.
I mean, I know it's called shechanged history.
And you talk about history.
Yeah, but I've never consideredthat.
(00:29):
I don't really consider it to behistory.
We're just talking about thepast, which sounds ridiculous.
I know.
But it's like, It's interestingangle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did you got this show on theroad?
I'm ready.
Hi Vicki.
Hi Simon.
How are you doing?
(00:49):
I am very well.
How are you?
Sounds good.
Yeah, very well, thanks.
Yeah, it's sunny.
I've made a cake, fish, pashbush.
I mean, what more do you wantfrom your life?
Yeah, that's the week completed.
Congratulations.
Sounds great.
Lovely.
Well, I've got a story for youtoday.
Yes.
And I, I love this one.
(01:10):
All right.
Badass.
She is badass.
I love it.
Yeah.
I just want you to soak it up.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright, let's go.
Um.
There will be a bit of anexplainer about the geography
and society and politics of thetime and empires.
We're going way back in time.
I have a little intro for you.
(01:31):
the Sands of time often bury thestories of remarkable figures
leaving only faint whispers inthe historical record Among
these forgotten narratives isthat of Queen Amans, a
formidable ruler from AncientAfrica who in the late first
century, BCE, stood against themight of the burgeoning Roman
Empire.
This was a period dominated bythe rise of Augustus, the first
(01:51):
Roman emperor, yet far to thesouth in the kingdom of Kush.
Along Denal Valley, a queenemerged who would challenge
Rome's expansionist ambitions.
While the names of Romanemperors in Egyptian Pharaohs
frequently echoed throughhistory, the tale of our Manus
and her kingdom located in whatis now northern Sudan and
Southern Egypt remains largelyuntold to many.
today we aim to unveil the lifeleadership achievements and
(02:14):
enduring legacy of thisextraordinary queen, placing her
within rich, historical,political, and geographical
context of her time.
I'm excited.
Yes.
Let's go.
Correct reaction?
Yes.
So we're gonna be talking about,um, some dates, around year
zero.
Okay.
(02:35):
I'm gonna be referring to themto as b, c, E.
So before the common era and cecommon era.
Mm-hmm.
Rather than BC and ad.
and there's, yeah, a few littlethings to explain along the way.
And apologies in advance for mypronunciation on some of these
place names, but I will try mydarnest.
Lots of sources.
(02:56):
main ones are.
Oh, let me scroll down.
world History, SARL Tours.
It's an interesting website.
Britannica, a couple of, sort oflibrary resources, history
skills, heritage Daily, and anarticle on Black History Month.
(03:16):
Great.
We'll back them in the shownotes.
Get them in the notes.
Yeah.
Great.
Okay, so we are.
Way back in time.
A thousand, I say, um, about1,070 BCE.
Okay.
My gosh.
And we are talking about the,uh, the Kingdom of Kush, uh,
(03:37):
KUSH, often referred to asNubia, uh, situated and
flourishing along the NileRiver, which is at the time, as
is now really the lifeline andsort of arid landscape of
Northeastern Africa.
this.
Kingdom's history, um, spansover a millennium by the time
(03:57):
that we'll get to it, it's anancient civilization.
Uh, had a long and complexrelationship with its northern
neighbor Egypt.
Okay.
Um, and those sort of marked byperiods of those trade, cultural
exchange, sometimes warfare.
And at one point there was evencushite rule over Egypt as the
25th dynasty.
(04:18):
So he's the emperor, he's thetop dog.
Uh, at the moment I haven't gotto any rulers, just Okay.
It's the, the kingdom, the areaitself.
Itself.
Oh, the itself, the is itselfcalled Kush.
The kingdom is called Kush.
I think Kush, to me Kush is aname.
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
A city being called Elizabeth orsomething.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry.
and yeah, it got independencefrom Egypt around a thousand,
(04:40):
1,070 BCE, Eventually declinedaround the fourth century ce and
over this time it had severalcapital, capital cities, which
just reflected its these shiftsin political power and strategic
focus.
so initially its Capital Citywas a place called Kma,
K-E-R-M-A, and then later duringthe Heitz power in Napita, uh,
(05:05):
became the capital around seven50.
BCE, which is.
Located in Northern Kush, alongthe Nile Significant religious
center.
And it's got these GrandTemples, grand Temple Complex
dedicated to the Godda moon, um,at the sacred mountain of Jebel
Baral.
And it's a bur burial site.
It's, you can really picture it,can't you?
(05:25):
Yeah.
Make sure, local village hall,just, you know, power in
comparison.
Yeah.
Don't go knock in the socialclub, Mike.
That's true.
Sorry.
Sorry.
War Hill.
Um, by the time our soon to besubject of this, uh, queen
scended to power, she came topower around 40 BCE.
(05:48):
Okay.
And the capital had movedfurther south to Mero,
M-E-R-O-E.
it moved there around 590 BCE,and it was a really good
strategic.
Location, offered greatstrategic advantages.
So it gave them a buffer fromNorthern Invaders.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And we'll come on more to thesort of strategic advantages of
(06:09):
the land shortly, but also thisarea, it was really rich in iron
ore deposits and gold had loadsof acacia forests.
So as a result of this, Kush wasrenowned for its, its iron
industry and its skills in ironworking.
They had loads of gold.
they were exceptional.
That.
Gold working.
A lot of things actually youwould normally associate with
(06:30):
Egypt and you hear about withEgypt of the temples.
Yes.
The pyramids, the gold workingthe, I've just read a book on
like excavating in Egypt and Imm-hmm.
It's, um, it's given me allthose vibes.
It was a fantasy book and it'sgiven me all the, oh, all the
tingles.
Yeah.
So it shared a lot ofsimilarities with Egypt, even in
aspects like government,religion, and burial practices.
(06:52):
Uh, but it also had its owntraditions and its own language.
Um, metic script, The Kingdomwas really known for its skilled
artisans, as I said, especiallyin gold and iron working.
And crucially, they controlled alot of trade routes that
connected Sub-Saharan Africawith Egypt and the Mediterranean
world.
(07:13):
So because they were located onthe Nile, they had plenty of
weaponry, they had plenty ofcontrol.
They a powerful kingdom, andthey would control this flow of
trade from south to north.
Gosh, It was a monarchy.
Okay.
so during Amor Anus reign in thelate first century, BCE, the
Kingdom of Kush, it was governedby a monarchy that included not
(07:34):
only kings, but also verypowerful queens.
Mm-hmm.
And they were known by the titleof Candace, C-A-N-D-A-C.
Candace is, we don't actuallyknow the succession practices
of.
That was gonna be one of myquestions.
Yeah.
And kind of the reason we don'tknow about this, a lot of this
story has come from Romanwritings.
(07:57):
so people like Pliny the Elder,Straba, Cassie Steel, wrote
about.
The goings on of the KushEmpire.
But of course, that's from theRoman point of view, from the,
the Kush point of view, it'smostly just archeological finds.
Yeah.
that we've got that inform thestories and maybe give us a
different point of view to theRoman one.
(08:19):
They sort of correlate to theRoman narrative, but then give
us maybe an alternative view ofhow it actually played out the
context.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, me script, we still haven'treally deciphered.
Wow.
So if we do eventually decipherit, then there will be sort of
more to know, more confirmed.
(08:41):
That must be because it's somuch earlier.
It's like 1500 years earlier,isn't it?
It's a lot earlier.
Yeah.
Um, and there's no, we haven'tfound the Rosetta Stone for.
Uh, metic, you know, so theRosetta Notta stone.
Yeah.
Have you heard of the RosettaStone?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah This is a, It's astone that was found engraved in
(09:05):
three different scripts.
It was hieroglyphic, demonic,and Greek, and it was the same
passage in each script.
So that allowed us, because weknew the Greek, we could
therefore figure out thehieroglyphic and demonic script.
So our understanding of EgyptianEgyptian hieroglyphs comes from
this initial translation.
That we figured out from theRosetta Stone and is why we the
(09:28):
hieroglyphs.
And then became, then became DuoLingo.
Then became Duo ultimately.
Yeah.
It was Hieroglyphs demonicGreek, and modern conversational
Italian.
All very cool.
so the, the Candace is thequeens.
so we don't know theirsuccession practices, but what
(09:50):
is not in doubt is the power andrespect given to these royal
women.
They really held prominence inthe Cushite society,
particularly during this meticperiod of around sort of five 90
BCE onwards.
Term Candace is a latinizedversion of a metic term, Kataki
or kaki, uh, which could meanqueen Regent, queen mother,
(10:12):
royal woman.
but they had their own specifictitle and were really regarded,
much like actually Egyptians aswell.
They were held in high esteemand Amman Aus is one of the most
renowned of these canes.
the political climate at thetime of her reign was really
(10:33):
heavily influenced by the riseof the Roman Empire under
Augustus.
So he was their first emperorand he consolidated power.
And then in around 30 BCE,annexed Egypt, following the
defeat of Cleopatra and MarkAnthony.
So this, then with Egyptdefeated it meant that the
Romans were at the border of theKush of the Kingdom of Kush.
(10:54):
Oh.
Because they were below.
So it was like the next onedown.
They were, yeah.
Yeah.
Next one down along the Nile.
Yeah.
and Manor rain is ascended topower probably around 25.
B, CE following the death of herhusband.
Terra take, She inherited thiskingdom that had a long history
of interaction with Egypt.
Okay.
A lot of political and tradeties, but now had this imperial
(11:16):
power right on their doorstep.
Yeah.
and I'll tell what, and she hasto lead through it.
That's her.
And she has to lead through it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, let's go.
It's very, Roman wanted a pieceof that, of, of course they did.
They were unstoppable.
Those pest, they want piece ofeverything, but they do.
That's so greedy.
And it was such, Kush was such acrucial, I wanna say sort of
(11:41):
bottleneck or something, or, uh,yeah, like a, I mean like a
linch pan kind of thing.
Yeah.
In this.
Because it, they controlled allthe trade routes to the South
and they themselves had enormousresources.
and if they were taxing andtaxing and they had the gold,
and it's a power, isn't it?
They're really, it's a realpower.
Power, yeah.
so the name Nubia.
(12:04):
Yeah.
But the Kingdom of Kush was alsoknown by, is thought to come
from the Egyptian word for gold.
NUB New.
I was gonna say, I have heard ofit before.
Yeah.
Is it something we use in modernday as well?
Is it like a phone brand orsomething?
I'm not sure I've heard of itbefore.
Yeah.
Maybe it lives on, it meansgold.
It lives on it.
It basically means gold.
So it's, it's the kingdom ofgold, really.
(12:26):
Mm-hmm.
I said iron ore is a crucialresource, so it's a major center
for iron production earned atthe moner of the iron capital of
Ancient Africa.
And they also had valuableresources at the time, things
like ivory, ebony, animal skins,precious stones.
this is fascinating.
The Nile really was.
(12:47):
The lifeblood.
It provides all this fertileland for agriculture.
It's vital for transportation,for trade, and a source of water
in what is otherwise a, a sortof arid desert climate.
And then you have these,cataracts they're called, okay.
Uh, they're sort of on a river.
You have busters of waterfallsor areas where the river is no
(13:08):
longer like free flowing andthey're an obstacle.
They're basically a stopper inthe river.
They're these natural barriersand that's where trade and
interaction occurs.
And so Nya had had these aroundthere that were sort of focal
points for all of this.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so the Romans have conqueredEgypt.
(13:30):
Sorry, Cleopatra, you're out.
Yes.
A classic move.
Classic.
Absolute.
Classic Roman move.
and although Cush has had thiscenturies long.
History of interaction.
Successful, largely successfulinteraction with Egypt.
Rome comes along, thingsescalate.
It's open conflict.
(13:50):
It's known as the Cushite RomanWars, and this is what largely
defined a Manus is leadership.
So she's part of this longlineage of.
Powerful.
Candace is, these queens of Kushand becomes known for only
having one eye.
Oh, and is that because she's afighter?
(14:13):
Because she's a fighter?
Oh, yeah.
So it's suspected this, theaccounts come mostly from the
writings of a Greek historhistorian, but the most
plausible explanation is thatshe was fighting the Romans.
Defending and lost an eye,which, I mean, this comes up
(14:33):
again and again in our stories,that women are at the forefront.
Like Zenobia, she was at thefront forefront on her horse, on
the camels doing the stuff likethey're not just out pretty on
their thrones, are they?
Yeah.
Like you are in a battle losingan eye.
Yeah.
And she cracks on, carries on.
Yeah.
She's like.
I don't have any pictures ofher, but I'm just imagining a
(14:56):
true sort of African warriorqueen Yes.
Is absolutely indomitable force.
Um, and there's consistency inthe Roman sources, suggesting
that this, that her having oneeye was really notable.
Characteristic Of course.
And anything, and scary, Ithink, right?
Well, exactly.
Yes.
Uh, not in a people, our eyesare scary, but in a, it's a
(15:18):
badge of honor, isn't it?
In a weird way that, yeah.
That's what I was thinking, thatshe's formidable and the
formidable is Yeah.
The word.
Yeah.
And that really emphasized thisformidable nature that she had.
the war, these Cusack Roman war,which spanned approximately 25
to 22 BCE.
So three to four years.
Initially.
(15:38):
Started by the cushite or that'swhat kicked it off.
Okay.
So they went on the attack,well, less on the attack, but
more sort of incursions into theRoman controlled Egypt.
and.
These were likely re response.
So you could say that Romestarted it, these sort of raids
that they did into Egypt.
Now under Roman control weresuspected to be in response to,
(16:02):
Rome's imposition of taxes onthe region, for example, and
just its general aggressiveexpansionist policy of wanting
to take over and dominateeverything so soon escalates
into a.
Initially under a, a Manus, theCushite forces achieved some
success.
Okay?
So they captured key Romanoccupied cities, such as sayin
(16:25):
elephantine and felo.
Mm-hmm.
Um, they also, one of myfavorite bits, uh, in an act of
defiance during one of thesecaptures, uh, a manner.
Cut off the head of a statue ofEmperor Augustus.
Oh my God.
That is like a movie.
Isn't that like a Yeah, that waspart of a, um, uh, like a tomb
(16:51):
building exercise or something,wasn't it?
Like, come on guys.
Did she chops off the head?
Yeah.
Casually, uh, takes it home withher.
Does she?
And buries it under the steps ofher temple.
So it's, that's an odd responseto trauma, isn't it?
It's odd.
(17:12):
I'm just gonna bury that deep.
I did a very similar thing inprimary school, and I love this
idea that they, it's like a signof the victory.
They are now trampling.
They are climbing on the head ofthe romance.
That's what I mean.
Like it is stomping on Yeah.
Hundred percent.
Yeah.
Um, Rome wasn't chuffed aboutthis.
(17:33):
They've been known to get a bitangry, a bit, A bit gy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
the Roman prefect of Egypt, afellow called Gaia Petronius,
led a very strong force intoKush.
Okay.
eventually capturing the capitalnpa mm-hmm.
Um, and establishing or by theformer capital in NPA and
establishing a new Romanfrontier further further south.
(17:55):
Okay.
Uh, but despite this success Aman Aus did not yield.
she did not capitulate.
She continued to lead herforces.
She continued fighting on inresistance against this Roman
occupation.
So she had this real resilience,and especially with the capital
Maro now further south, she hadthis real strategic acumen.
(18:22):
she must have had backing aswell.
You can't just say, we're gonnakeep going.
You can't just say, we're gonnado it, you need Well, it's
especially in such bloodyfighting.
Yeah.
It's interesting they did have,I mean, the Roman Empire is
almost impossibly large andpowerful at this point.
Exactly.
Yeah.
but the Kingdom of Kush did havesome.
(18:46):
Some advantages, and these arethe ones that us really
leveraged.
had a really strategic location.
Yeah.
So the terrain was.
Unusual for the Romans.
They weren't used to fighting inthis sort of terrain.
Uh, they could really, funnelthem down a bit like oppo, I
suppose.
Oh wow.
They had a abundant naturalresources, particularly iron for
(19:06):
weaponry.
Yeah.
So they weren't gonna run out ofweapons anytime soon.
And they were incredibly skilledat, um, this iron work was
forging and they had very, veryskilled archers.
Egyptians called the region TarSetti, which is the land of the
bow.
So not only did they make theseweapons, but they really, my
God, they knew how to use them.
So they were a much smallerforce up against this almost
(19:29):
impossibly large force of theRoman Empire.
But they were skilled.
They were skilled, and theyreally knew what they had.
They really knew how to use, andthis really longstanding
tradition of very strong.
Leadership, including thesepowerful female rulers like
Amus, which I think must havejust GED up the forces.
(19:52):
And if you see your camaraderieYeah, yeah.
Patriotism you.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Matri.
Is that a word?
Oh yeah.
I didn't even notice what I'dsaid.
You're right.
I dunno if that is a word, butwe're, you fell for the
patriarchy.
(20:17):
So this conflict just.
Went on and on for a lot longerthan I think Romans were used
to.
And eventually grinding themdown as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this has really got echoesof Xxi to me.
It eventually led tonegotiations.
Ah, yes.
Which is a tactic in itself,isn't it?
What's that thing called?
(20:37):
Are you grind people down somuch?
Siege warfare.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
Pretty much.
Just until they can't go on anylonger, but augustus stepped in
and negotiated.
Ah, he was willing to negotiateand the peace treaty that they
had was, if anything, quitefavorable to Kush considering
(20:58):
the overwhelming size of theRoman forces.
So they didn't demand a tribute,some sort of sacrifice and they
withdrew from many of theoccupied territories.
What, this is amazing.
So there's something about, am.
Just determination andresilience and because she
(21:18):
would've been in thoseconversations at the forefront.
Demanding.
Yeah.
Eating,'cause it's apsychological game mm-hmm.
As well isnt net warfare.
This is what I mean, women havealways fought.
Yeah, absolutely.
And she was.
This is a world sort ofdominated by male leaders.
Yeah.
Um, but her strength, it was hercourage, her political skill,
(21:39):
her leadership really stood out.
And this resilience that sheshowed in not simply
capitulating against what seemslike an impossible to beat
force, she strung them out forlong enough to get a result that
preserved this cushierindependence.
So they weren't.
They weren't overrun, theyweren't taken over by the
Romans, and they survived aboutanother 400 years.
(22:03):
Wow.
And she established this periodof relative peace then.
Okay.
And trade between Cush and RomanEgypt for nearly 300 years it
went on.
Oh, so she even put in a tradedeal?
Yeah.
They must have really wanted.
Chris for its resources then.
Yeah, yeah.
Resources and the control it hadover those trade routes.
(22:24):
Yeah.
As that court.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've just put in reallythe fact that Rome at the zenith
of its power, um, under thisgreat Augustus would compell to
negotiate a peace deal.
Sort of really underscores thesecomplexities they have of
imperial expansion and the costsinvolved.
(22:45):
Yeah.
If they've got a reallydetermined ponent, these costs
in subjugating them and it, inthe end, the manor rains made it
clear that it was just betterfor the Roman Empire.
Not to try and conquer them, butinstead work with them.
And like you can have ourresources, but you'll pay us for
them.
We'll trade you for them.
I'm right.
Yeah.
This is gonna be, we're notbeing taken over here.
(23:08):
Our understanding of the manoris reign.
And this kingdom of Kush ismostly comes from archeological
findings.
Yeah.
So Au itself has pyramids,temples, you can, they found,
remnants of the iron workingindustries.
So you have this really tangibleevidence of the Cushite
(23:28):
civilization at this time.
They've even found the bronzehead of Augustus.
Buried at Temple.
They found what she buried.
Yeah.
Oh cool.
Yeah.
So it wasn't like a legend oranything.
It was uh, no this is definitelythe head was there.
We've disco it.
Yeah.
(23:48):
Bronze cheese cliff.
It was, but it shows herunderstanding as well of like
symbolic warfare.
Yeah.
It's not just the actual fightitself, but it's this, building
yourself up.
To be even more for formidablethan you actually may be.
Really trying.
That's what I mean.
It's like psychological, isn'tit a game as well,
psychologically as well asphysically.
(24:10):
Yeah.
It's not just who has thebiggest tank, is it?
It is.
You know, all these mini littlepower plays and also the
standing power, like you said,she said, no, you will pay for
our resources.
You're not just taking them.
You will pay.
Yeah.
It's not even like you couldhave a little bit, it's like a
full on, no, this is not howthis is gonna go.
Yeah.
That's so powerful.
(24:31):
And it's, uh, I think we couldall learn a bit of putting in
those boundaries.
Boundaries is the word.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Know your line and stick to it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And that, like, it is quite ascary thing to do, isn't it?
Because it feels like an all ornothing sort of approach.
And if they especially becomesthe, the Roman Empire in one of
(24:51):
its peaks, hopefully we will intime learn more about her brain.
Yeah.
They have found a, a number of,Stella, they're called
S-T-E-L-A-E, which are these bigstone, big stone.
I don't wanna say gravestone.
Gravestones, they're not used asgravestones, but they're that
sort of size.
Okay.
You see massive stone thingsinto which there were
(25:14):
inscriptions made.
Ah, okay.
but it's in the metic languageand there's very little of that
that we.
Currently decipher.
So there's probably a lot moresort of clues and information
about her life to come out.
Yeah.
And to get more of the, have youseen, um, that thing that's
doing the rounds on the internetlimited that someone, in the
Roman Empire complained they gota delivery of copper and then.
(25:39):
They wrote a little scriptureof, um, their complaint about
the grade of copper and itwasn't what they ordered, and it
would've taken them about likesix hours to like carve this
complaint, like chisel it outand.
Oh, I love that, that there's onshow in the British Museum and
it's this, complaint aboutcopper grade or something.
(26:03):
Dear, a so-called Copper Trader.
It works.
So I can always tell when I'mdisgruntled'cause apparently
each of my key taps is like astabbing the keyboard.
I just imagine this guyfuriously.
It's just exactly same the wholeof that time.
I love it.
So funny.
(26:24):
So it'd be great to know moreabout it from the the Kush
perspective.
'cause so much of what we've gotis from.
The point of view of the Romans.
Yeah.
So you, from a time span then,because you said there was like
400 years of peace after that.
Yeah, that would've probablycrossed over into Zenobia's
timeline.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because she was likeSyria against Egypt at some
(26:45):
point and so her, their storiesprobably crossed is my, yeah, a
little guess.
I don't know.
Obviously they probably weren'talive at the same time, but,
Yeah, it's interesting isn't it,that we dunno these women and
we've managed to find in ourvery short lifetime too.
Mm-hmm.
the cross.
And again, with really similarthemes about standing your
(27:07):
ground and sticking to your ownlane, just focusing.
Yeah.
You know, and, and he's clearlypretty well, and both with
success stories.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Well respected.
That's such a good, comparison.
So often she must have been, youcan't go up against the Roman if
you are not.
And she got in there, she wasinvolved, she proved herself.
(27:28):
I mean, it sounds like theirsociety already respected and
held in very high regard, thesequeens, but she was in it.
Yeah.
And it's contrasts for me somuch these days.
There's this idea that femaleCEOs usually get brought in when
they know the company's goingunder.
Yeah.
It's called the glass cliff,isn't it?
The glass cliff.
(27:48):
That's it.
There's a bit of an argumentthat that's happening right now
with Rachel Reeves.
Mm-hmm.
That she was handed a, a, a dogpoo of an economy and you know,
they thought, oh, women would begreat in here.
I don't, it's so hard to, I feela bit funny about that as a,
what do you think about it as atheory?
I.
Um, I'm not con it is thecorrelation causation Yeah.
(28:12):
Sort of aspect.
And I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
I think it's mostlyrepresentative that it's so much
more difficult for female CEOsto get into that position.
Mm-hmm.
And therefore they, maybe moreoften get the sort of lower
hanging fruit, which tends to bethe companies that are on the
downer anyway.
Rather than a deliberate, wellpermit officer that we can blame
(28:33):
it on the woman.
Yeah.
I don't think it's necessarily aconscious decision.
Mm-hmm.
But I think there is some, Ithink there's something in it,
but I'm not sure there'ssomebody sat there being that
foreshadowing in the nicest way.
Yeah.
I don't think they think aboutit that much, which is.
And this is what even worse in away, is what?
(28:57):
Makes me not believe conspiracytheories in general in that I
just don't think people can bethat organized to make these
massive schemes.
I just don't think people arethat good or that clever.
I think it's mostly negligenceand ineptitude.
Yeah.
But then you can try andattribute it to decision making
or a deliberate act, but Mm.
(29:20):
I think rarely it is.
But anyway, queen.
Yeah.
Totally badass.
yeah, that's a reallyinteresting part of history as
well that we don't often hearabout.
So it sounds like the, her storysounds such a, like a little
spark, like such a blip inhistory.
But actually if that led to 400years Yeah.
(29:44):
Like that's from like the tutorsto now.
Yeah.
That is, if you think aboutthat, we've covered the
industrial revolution, we've thedigital revolution, like so much
has happened in those 400 years.
Yeah.
Her reign and her, stamina.
The consequences of it are downto her.
Come on.
That is badass.
That's pretty cool.
It's proper badass.
(30:05):
Yeah, it's very exciting.
So I was, I was really excited.
I can't believe I've almost keptto time.
I, this was really fun to readabout.
Yeah.
All off shoots.
Nice.
I'm very outta your comfort zoneas well.
Yeah.
Not a Victorian scientist, so.
Yeah.
Well than you who knew, not me.
(30:25):
Yeah.
It's been a revelation.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
And then, so when did Kush, dowe know when Kush fell?
'cause it's, yeah, around three50.
Okay.
Three 50 common era.
And it's now, and how did it goto, so it's now split what used
to be Kush is now split betweenEgypt and Sudan.
Yeah.
Okay.
So yeah, maybe we can get likean old map or something of where
(30:48):
it was.
That would be quite cool.
Get an overlay just to rear.
Yeah, definitely.
It kind of makes you wanna learnmore.
It makes you wanna Definitely,yeah.
Yeah.
It just makes me wanna learnmore about all of the.
Because I, I know very littleabout African history.
I know.
Yeah.
But no more about, I mean theEgyptians to me were just a very
long time ago.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Yeah.
Same, same, same, same.
(31:09):
But even to like just talk aboutthe Egyptians is mad'cause it
covers thousands of years.
Mm-hmm.
oh, you say like ancient Egypt.
And think it's a thing.
I always used to think of it.
Oh, like the tutors?
Yeah.
They just came along pyramidsand that was that.
But ancient Egypt, spanned from3,150 BCE to about 30 BC so it's
(31:34):
like over 3000 years.
So it's been in millennia?
Yeah, it was around for 50%longer than the time between
Christ and where we are now.
Oh my gosh.
It's insane, isn't it?
There's all this history inthere.
Yeah, because also history islike dinosaurs.
(31:57):
Egyptians pretty much tutors.
Victorians now.
Yeah.
All given about equal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Equal.
Henry Yi gets an awful lot ofthat.
Yeah.
If you like compare him to thedinosaurs, you just thought
Henry Yi lived for about 3million years.
(32:19):
This is why we exist.
This is why we're trying to, youknow.
Make our own curriculum, aren'twe?
I hope so.
Before we're taught.
Yeah, definitely.
I hope so.
A nice one.
Hope you enjoyed.
I did.
Yeah.
So much.
I wanna do more.
It's kind of like just a, thatfeels like an appetizer, haven't
we?
It does, doesn't it?
Yeah.
We need to go further.
You go deeper, but I'm excited.
(32:42):
We can do that.
We've got time de fine.
Cool.
Okay.
Thanks very much.
I'm gonna go and decorate acake.
Enjoy.
audio2572508189-1 (32:55):
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