USD$70M Committed Before Launch?! A Guide To Robotics Startups (Rishab Patwari, CEO of Hivebotics)

Episode Transcript
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Rishab (00:00):
my competitors burned five to ten million dollars
trying to do it themselves andthey couldn't get the product
out.
We burned one million dollarsand we're almost out.
So that's the difference.

Eric (00:06):
When did you start taking on more advisors and building
your team

Rishab (00:09):
Very early on, we basically found Advisor Lee.
She could help us with reviewingour story lining narrative and
everything She also actuallyconnected us with a lot of
angels and collectively theycontributed almost several
hundred thousand dollars worthof investment.
So an advisor like that is likespot on

Eric (00:24):
How do you enter the robotics industry as a fresh
grad compared to like someonewho comes in from, you know, 10
years 20 years of experience inrobotics?

Rishab (00:32):
I call it a black box mindset.
It's not easy.
It took me a very long time toget to it.
But, when you're trying to pickup fast, you need to know what's
your objective.
What do you need to build?
And then, what you need to useat a functional level without
understanding the details andputting it together.
Whoever tells you you needindustrial design first is
telling you nonsense.

Eric (00:52):
Hi, everyone.
I'm Eric, host of the Sow andScale podcast.
Today, my guest is RishabhPathwari.
Rishabh is the CEO and cofounder of Hivebotics, a company
that builds autonomous robotswhere its current focus is on
commercial cleaning of toilets.
Hivebotics was part of theGraduate Research Innovation
Program, GRIP Accelerator by theNational University of

(01:12):
Singapore, for deep techstartups, and have also raised
up to one million in pre seedfunding.
They're just about to launch, soby the time this comes out, you
might just see them in action.
He studied computer engineeringin the National University of
Singapore, with a second majorin innovation and design, and
was also part of the NUSOverseas Colleges program.

(01:33):
Today we explore Singapore'srobotics startup scene.
It's occurring Allo.
Ice or letters of intent andfunding, deep tech finches.
Building effective teams andadvisor networks.
Achieving product market fit inrobotics and navigating
Singapore's tough hardwarestartup ecosystem.
I hope you enjoy this episode asmuch as I did speaking with your

(01:55):
shop.
Rishabh, thank you so much for coming down on the show!

Rishab (01:57):
Thank you for having me.

Eric (01:59):
So it's great to see you today, and it was nice knowing
you as a dorm neighbor inuniversity.
You're not just building thefuture, but you're also a really
caring and humble guy.
So I'm super excited for ourconversation today.
Robotics is a super interestingindustry the global revenue in
the robotics market is projectedto reach 24 billion by 2029.
domestic services is actuallythe biggest pie, which seems

(02:22):
like what you're working on.
It's 31 percent of the pie,followed by medical, electronic
and entertainment.
So tell me a bit more aboutHybotics, the key product and
key milestones to date.

Rishab (02:34):
Absolutely.
So at Hivebodies, we aredeveloping autonomous toilet
cleaning robots, which is meantfor commercial toilet cleaning.
For example, at shopping malls,airports, office buildings.
But our vision is really toredefine the next hundred years
of work, the workflows which aremenial, tedious, demanding,
undecided.

(02:55):
Hardware, software andintelligence.
Three main pillars to drive ourautomation.
And toilet cleaning was aperfect start.
Now just to give you a bit of abackground, why clean toilets in
the first place?
Well, if you look into thestatistics in Singapore, the
average age of cleaners ishitting about 70 years old.
And other parts of the world isalso increasing in, 50s to 70s.

(03:17):
And this is a huge problem.
Cleaning companies cannot findworkers who are motivated.
Or able to do cleaning anymoredue to a generational shift in
the workforce.
And, toilet cleaning is not onlya one, but it's actually a
crisis for the cleaning sectorin Singapore and parts of
Europe.
We thought that we have anopportunity to help this sector
and yeah, that's how we gotstarted.

(03:38):
Can

Eric (03:38):
you walk me through some of the key milestones?
I know you have 1, 000 lettersof intent or LOIs and maybe, how
much has been committed?
Maybe any financial figures aswell?
Well,

Rishab (03:48):
Well, we have over a thousand units LOI, you know,
that's worth about 70 plusmillion dollars worth of LOIs.
These LOIs are, essentially apreliminary indication about the
demand from the customers, aswell as for us to actually
indicate to them the price.
So when they sign, it's with theunderstanding about how much
this will cost.
And they actually commit to thenumber of units.

(04:10):
although this is non binding,this actually gives us an
indication and for them as well,how are they going to deploy the
robots?
Now, how it translates tocommitted revenue?
Well, we have already securedpurchase orders for our first
batches of robots.
So for next year, we have foralmost 500, 000 worth of
purchase orders and 200 over athousand dollars worth of, paid

(04:30):
pilots scheduled for next year.
So very excited about that.

Eric (04:33):
Nice.

Rishab (04:34):
dollars.

Eric (04:35):
where are most of your customer base?

Rishab (04:36):
customer base?
Well, our biggest customer baseis in the US and then of course
Singapore itself.
just to put it in perspective,one customer in the US is more
than the whole of Singapore puttogether.
So, the size of the marketmatters.
The other regions which arevery, very, um, you know,
attractive actually Middle Eastand, Northern Europe, so

(04:57):
Nordics, all those locations arereally, having very strong

Eric (05:00):
Having very strong demand.

Rishab (05:03):
bit different in each geography.
So of course in the Middle Eastthey have no foreign worker
restrictions, and there is no,Cost escalation problem, but in
the Middle East, for example,the intent is they want to be
the premieres, the frontiertech, you know, enablers.
So they want to have robotics,even if it costs more.

(05:23):
So a bit different.
If you look in Europe, it is avery similar problem.
You know, they have agingworkers, foreign workers, the
whole workforce is dependent onthem.
Some of the locations are suchthat people don't even want to
go even for foreign and agingworkers.
So locations also matter.
That's a similar problem in theU.
S.
I mean, city is not a bigproblem getting labor, but if
you go out to, like, thecounties and the bigger areas

(05:46):
which are further away, a lot offoreign workers do not even want
to go there.
So, you can't get local talent,neither can you get foreign
talent.
You have no choice.
So, these are real, you know,issues on the ground.
Of course, we are learning moreand more as we go closer to
deployment, but I would saythat, broadly The issues are
common, but how they impact is alittle bit different.

(06:08):
Singapore, places where there'smuch more legislation, tend to
have, pressing pressure.
For other places, it's a slower,like, you know, impact on them,
compared to, like, I need tosolve it by next year.

Eric (06:19):
difference.
Well, I mean, there aredifferent factors that affect
the

Rishab (06:24):
I mean there are different factors that affect
the savings.
So number one is of course thegeography.
What is the cleaning wages?
Of course, cleaning in Singaporeversus cleaning in Australia is
very different, right?
So those things affect.
In terms of percentages, alsothis depends on the size of the
toilets as well as the cleaningfrequency of deployment.
So we estimate that for large,facilities like airports,

(06:47):
shopping malls, where they havehigh frequency cleaning, we can
save up to 60 percent of acleaner's salary worth of work
with our robots and go to mediumfacilities.
It's about 50 percent and thensmall facilities about 40
percent because the frequency ofcleaning is also lower.
So that's the range.

Eric (07:04):
range.
Well, in fact, our firstdeployments are due for January.
These are early adopters, sothis

Rishab (07:17):
our first deployments are due for January.
these are early, adopters.
This is not the commercial unit,but they are buying and actually
deploying this unit.
that's something you're reallyexcited for because we would be
tested, you know, all kinds ofissues with that.
But one thing that makes itreally special is our customers
have put in the faith and theyhave taken the leap of faith to

(07:40):
actually, kickstart the journeywith us early, even before
commercial launch.
they can also bring in inputs onwhat to change before commercial
launch, which is very valuable.

Eric (07:48):
So I think moving more into the origins of Hivebotics,
you were inspired to start, thetoilet cleaning robot when your
friend owned a cleaning companyand face staff shortages.
So what also drew you personallyto the problem to start
Hivebotics?

Rishab (08:01):
So, a bit of a personal background at that point of
time, I had just been evacuatedback from NUS overseas colleges,
in Silicon Valley.
So when I was back hereevacuated?
Yes.
there pandemic.

Eric (08:12):
Oh yeah.

Rishab (08:12):
there was a pandemic patch.
So, you know, I was working in astart up, you know, while I was
there, and I came back and Istill work in a start up.
So what happened is that I waslooking for something to work
upon.
Hybotics is actually anevolution of a previous company
idea that we had that was a HRmanagement platform, which was
original inspiration from goingto my friend's site.
So during the pandemic, like Itold you, the problem is aging

(08:35):
workers and, foreign workers.
Well, foreign workers went backto their home countries.
Aging workers were too scared togo to work because this is pre
vaccine era.
So my friend who has contracts,which mandates minimum number of
is getting liquidated damages.
And you cannot sustain thecompany because you cannot get
any labor.
And if you pay labor, you're notgetting paid for from your

(08:57):
existing contract.
They're not going to pay youmore money.
So that was his crisis.
you know, and toilet cleaningwas a big part of it.
We originally started off bytrying to do a worker management
platform because in doing COVIDthere were compliance, like you
need to have temperature taking,you need to know who came in and
who didn't come.
So we tried to create a platformfor that, which, well, we

(09:18):
started getting adopted, but,very soon we realized like, One
is that there are many morecompetitors.
It's not a new problem.
And the real problem at hand isnot about how do you manage this
existing pool of workers, butrather there's just not enough
workers.
So the problem is the same.
It's about addressing the labor,management issues, but how we

(09:40):
shifted is from our originalstartup of a HR management
platform to manage theattendance, payroll, all this
kind of stuff for the workers.
We evolved into solving the rootproblem, which is that there's
just not enough workers and thatcan only be done through
automation.
So we did not think of like, Iwant to do a robot and then come
and solve a problem.
Rather, we addressed the problemthat we were witnessing.

Eric (10:01):
Than you address the problem that we were witnessing
up front.
So, I was in the NUS OverseasCollege Silicon

Rishab (10:20):
I was in the US Overseas College Silicon Valley program
in 2020 where, I was interningin a med tech startup.
That's about the main.
focus of the program whiletaking classes at Stanford for
Global Entrepreneurial Marketingwhich was very valuable as well
as NUS and Berkeley courses onEntrepreneurship, so it was a
very big deep dive into theentrepreneurial world because

(10:43):
you're thrown right into it howit shaped me was that I
participated in a lot ofhackathons there, personally,
you know, hacking away,developing things.
I did participate in Singaporeas well previously, but the
difference was the community ofpeople around.
in Singapore, we are veryaspirational, but still very,
conservative in a sense, like wewant to do things step by step.
Over there, I saw people whowould go all out.

Eric (11:04):
In what sense,

Rishab (11:04):
uh, yeah, I'll give you one illustration of it.
So in Stanford, I heard from afriend that a school band.
there was, I think banned in 50states in the U.
S.
and multiple airlines.
I think the latest creativething they decided to do was
when they were taking a flight,the band members decided it
would be fun to congregate atone side of flight midair to try

(11:26):
to tilt the plane.
So that kind of like all out,right?
And what it made me realize islike As a Singaporean, or even
an Asian, we tend to have thisobligatory mindset of like doing
things within a constraint.
And I felt, enlightened reallythat, well, the world doesn't

(11:46):
necessarily conform to this sameset of, constraints, Silicon
Valley, it may be good, it maybe bad, but I felt like that
pushes you to your potential.
You're in the same, institutionswhere some of the greats, were
as well, I was at Stanford andthen you're thinking about it,
you start thinking that, okay,if they were here, maybe 20
years ago, I got a chance now.
can I also do something with it?

(12:07):
Like, it's essentially, youstart comparing yourself.
Um, not in a negative way, butrather like in a way like, Whoa,
if they can do it, can I alsotry something like that?
What's stopping me?

Eric (12:17):
What's stopping

Rishab (12:18):
Yeah, absolutely.

Eric (12:20):
true.
I was there for 4

Rishab (12:27):
there for four months and then you know, evacuated
back.
Then I actually interned forSilicon Valley Company remotely
from Singapore.

Eric (12:33):
Company remotely from Singapore.
10k each

Rishab (12:38):
Oh yeah,

Eric (12:38):
these startups.
How do you, how do you spendyour first, you know, 10k,

Rishab (12:42):
it was 3 0 3.
Um, the first one we didn't takeit up.
Okay.
So my first startup attemptwhile I was going through the
MOC program, was, build a medtech startup, which was
essentially autonomous builddispensing machine idea.
I hated the idea.
I just didn't like the productanymore after a while, so.

(13:03):
We actually won a VIP grant.
I had a team.
I said, I want to leave.
You guys can take it and carryon.
So I think they took it andcarried on.
and I also won two more VIPgrants.
One was for the HR managementplatform, which we did use and
build a platform.
That was something, that wecaught towards the end of NOC.
And then the third one was, forthe autonomous monitoring robot.
So, interestingly, the HRmanagement and toilet cleaning

(13:25):
robot are evolution of eachother.
Because it started from HRmanagement.
Now, HR management is stillexisting as a separate company.
We are just like, when we havetime, we manage it.
It's just now given for free atthis time because we have no
time to commercialize it.
But, it gave us very strong,experience because you can
actually build things.
Um, whereas when it came toTolkien Robot, initially we

(13:46):
were, we had to change ourstrategy completely.
It was no longer about buildingbecause, you cannot build a
Tolkien Robot without resources.
Whereas you can build softwarewithout resources.
So that was the difference.
It became more aboutunderstanding the business,
broad market fit.
And communicating the, narrativeso we can get the resources to
get the building done.

Eric (14:06):
Yeah, I think we'll get there later.
So do you always want tograduate as an entrepreneur, or
do you consider working forother companies as well?

Rishab (14:13):
Okay, interestingly for me, um, it was quite it was
quite, persistent in the back ofmy mind, that I wanted to do

Eric (14:20):
My

Rishab (14:21):
So my personal background is my family is a
business family.
My dad has business.
So, you know for me Corporatejob was never really on my
agenda.
I was looking at it from aperspective of like Creating a
high value business from dayone.
So before I joined universityBut as I joined university in

(14:41):
the earlier phases, you know, Isigned the engineering and then
you're looking at all theengineers I did have a big

Eric (14:48):
outward pivot

Rishab (14:49):
from the original entrepreneurship direction for a
bit like I want I was like Oh,maybe I can do a software
engineer because it's likeinteresting, right?
I start off with a businessdirection I veered into I want
to do engineering as a careerand then get back into business
And I think there was a verynice merger because what I'm
doing now I had a chance to goreally deep dive engineering in

(15:11):
every single domain, software,hardware, electronics,
mechanical, and also get topursue my passion of business.

Eric (15:17):
Yeah, that's really nice.
I think robotics is also supercomplex right, as an industry.
So, Entering as a fresh grad,there's so many technicalities
to learn, so many researchpapers to read, so many moving
parts.
How How do you enter therobotics industry as a fresh
grad compared to like someonewho comes in from, you know, 10
years 20 years of experience inrobotics?

Rishab (15:34):
I think one is you need a crisis because there's so much
you need to, you need toovercome the motivation hurdles
by having a big enough crisisthat you just have to start
absorbing things faster andmaking sure you feel less.
So, I think in our case, it'sbecause we started a startup and
we had no money and I needed tobuild something before I run out
of money.
So I was.

(15:55):
Again, like, we didn't haveenough resources to build a full
robot, but what can we do?
What can we build first?
So me and my co founder, westarted, you know, picking up
what we could.
I spent hours online trying toread through, figure out how to
do robotics on the fly andinterestingly ended up becoming
a consultant myself to someother people within a year.
So I think it's a case of like,you know, Engineering,

(16:18):
especially in the robotic space,it's very complex.
It's years of experience thatpeople need to pick up, but it
can be short circuited.
You know, you have to learn howto black box certain things.
Like, you don't need to knoweverything into super detail.
You gotta, like, I call it ablack box mindset.
It's not easy.
It took me a very long time toget to it.
But, when you're trying to pickup fast, you need to know what's

(16:39):
your objective.
What do you need to build?
And then, What you need to useat a functional level without
understanding the details andputting it together.
So it's a bit of an integratormindset because that's what you
can actually use to deliver atthis point of time.
And then once you have a bitmore time and bandwidth to go
deeper, that's when you canreally start playing with the
fundamental level programming

Eric (17:00):
Well, I think this is my views.
I was told that half of the team

Rishab (17:14):
this is where Silicon Valley shaped my views.
I was told that half of the teamin the Apollo mission, was
actually undergrads, or freshgrads, that basically created
the first Apollo mission.
So, that being said, it's like,I don't think being an undergrad
is any excuse for you to be notable to do things.
I also see this a lot with someof the potential hires we see

(17:35):
many of them, you know, Theyhave this mindset that they just
graduated.
They're here to learn but youknow There's no excuse.
You gotta deliver from day one.
So, if you have gotten a degree,you have had four years of
engineering, that's four yearsof experience, what have you
done with it?
And you get out, you gotta startdelivering, and come on, people
from MIT, straight out ofuniversity, they can build a

(17:57):
rocket.
First in the world to go tospace, so there's no good
excuse.
What were some

Eric (18:03):
were some useful resources for you online?

Rishab (18:05):
Well, I think, for robotics, ROS Construct is a
very popular resource.
I think I'm a very visuallearner.
I don't like to read a lot.
So I need something that's handson to learn.
So the Construct has like asimulation environment where you
actually write code and theyhave guided code training for
robotics.
So I think that's, perfect stufffor robotics.

Eric (18:23):
I was looking out for people, because I was also
working on this thing,

Rishab (18:32):
So for me, um, I was looking out for people, because
I was working on this thingalone for the initial phases.
Then, the original team that wasworking on the HR management
platform, you know, left to beon the graduated.
Some of them were like, okay,you know, this was fun, but
like, I'm not going to do itseriously.
so the original team left.
After that, I was, looking for.

Eric (18:52):
co

Rishab (18:52):
I had a few things in mind, but I want to make sure
that I have working experiencewith them before I take them on.
So, how it began was that, I wasstill in university.
I haven't yet graduated.
I stayed in here to clear mydissertation, for engineering.
So I decided that, how about,let's make Hybotics my
dissertation.
The idea of building a telecomrobot, so I can kill two birds

(19:13):
with one stone.
And I also had the idea ofgetting four free interns,
because, you know, you havefour, team members.
Okay.
and then Zeng was one of thosethat, you know, I actually
posted out in like a engineeringclass group chat you know, Zeng
and three others, expressedinterest.
They joined.
So that was really the start.
Um, you know, it's a very sneakystrategy, but the thing is that

(19:34):
it's a one year dissertationproject, right?
So, months of working together,with Zeng, some of the other
guys, Started to see what I likeand what I don't like.
In fact, Zeng and I originallywere, not getting along because
he's very structured.
I'm very last minute can hackthrough and he's beautiful.
So it's two differentstrategies, right?
But I think the thing is that,there were also other people,

(19:55):
right?
In, in a sense, like I wasevaluating who should be a
potential co founder.
what I liked that for Zeng, Heis very committed, when he says
some he will do his best in hiscapabilities to get things done.
The second was alsoaccountability is high.
So that was something I likeabout my co founder.
And the third one was reallythat, I looked at his
background.

(20:15):
I think it's very interesting.
his family has a public companyin Vietnam that manufactures
aeroplanes.
I saw a lot of relevancy becauseI can get operational background
from the family.
Um, I also, okay, this might becontroversial, but I was
actually looking for a cofounder with a business family
background.
It's very specific.
I,

Eric (20:33):
I

Rishab (20:33):
think, for me, I wanted to make sure that someone I have
is committed to the business andnot too deep in the tech,
because, my view was thatbecause people who are too deep
in the tech, when, you know, thetech is.
Less exciting because you mayhave to do all other things.
They may not put in themotivation and business also

(20:55):
means that I felt that there'llbe a bit more creative on
solving certain problems, whichis, you know, you need to have
engineering experience.
That's for sure.
I cannot have a completebusiness co founder, but someone
would have the hybrid ofbusiness engineering was, what I
was looking

Eric (21:10):
I was looking for.
I want to have

Rishab (21:19):
like a business people necessarily this is something
you know like a business culturein the family I think that's
very different.
You can go to business schooland have zero Abilities to run a
business.
Let's be honest.
You can have an engineeringdegree may be the best and a
businessman as well But I thinkit's a cultural thing in mind,
which is like it's a risk takingappetite meaning like You know

(21:40):
if I tell you can you take ahalf a million loan and you
never take a loan in your lifebefore?
You do a calculator like, okay,these are my risks.
Makes sense.
Let's go.
That is a risk taking appetite.
The second is like frugality.
It's like, you know, when you'rea bit more business minded,
you'll be thinking about like,you cannot be trying to build
everything yourself.
you realize the value of laborleverage, capital leverage.

(22:03):
These are two different thingsthat give you leverage.
if you have money, you can buytime, you can buy other people's
time to get things done.
And so you can get more thingsdone.
If you don't have money, theonly thing you have is time.
But if you spend your time onevery single thing yourself,
then you cannot cover all thework.
You need to have leverage withother people, network.

Eric (22:24):
So,

Rishab (22:24):
my, another thing that my co founder had was he was
from ACSI.
So, originally I thought thatwould be very useful.
To be very frank, in hindsight,it didn't really turn out to be
useful, the network from ACSI.
But, my view back then was thatACSI is very well connected.
So, this was some, they may notbe major factors, but the
combination of all these factorsreally made me very keen on my
co founder.

(22:45):
And the fact that we disagreedmore in the initial phases was
also good because the commongoal was the same.
His approach was augmenting thesuccess of the whole project.

Eric (22:55):
Actually, what was the dissertation key focus on?

Rishab (22:57):
robot development

Eric (22:58):
Oh, everything.
Yeah.

Rishab (23:00):
of course we can't finish it, with, you know,
resources you have inuniversity, but, um, yeah, like
I was sharing, I think wedisagreed more, and then he just
said that, in fact, wequarreled.
He was the only one I quarreledwithin the four people, but he's
the one I chose for co founder.
And the reason was that theothers would be like, okay, lor,
just, okay, lor.
No, it's not, it's not reallythat, but it was more of, like,

(23:21):
the commitment to a commonproject was very different.
So it's like, you know, This isthe person that really cares
about you.
You know what he's doing andhe's his own personal reputation
on what the work needs to bedone The others would be more
like, you know, okay.
I mean It's not my i'm not aleader.
No, I don't need to do so for meThat was good because for me,

(23:43):
you know where I am strong atThen and areas where I'm weaker
at, he may be stronger at it.
So that was complimentary.
So you see there's a There's ayou know working professional
complimentary areas there'salso, you know a background
which I felt was verycomplimentary, you know business
background with engineering andthird fourth, you know, I

(24:05):
generally feel like havingsomeone from East Asia In a
company, it's also good becauseit's a bit of like cultural,
diversity as well.
So Zheng is from Vietnam.
My impression of, Vietnameseculture is that they are really
hardworking, very committed.
So I think having that kind of adiversity for Indian side, you

(24:26):
know, I'm Indian, so I havecertain Cultural strengths and
weaknesses as well.
So having that kind of diversityI felt would strengthened the
overall team and that's how Igot my co-founder.

Eric (24:36):
Oh, how do you manage disagreements and at the same
time manage to, you know, have acommon vision or be able to
build it?
How have you managed your cofounder relationship so far?

Rishab (24:46):
I would say that, you can have all sort of
disagreements because if youdon't have disagreement, you're
not being useful, let's behonest.
So disagreements is not a badthing.
But I think it's about how youmanage it.
It's a very good question.
I think we generally do not gopersonal ever so You can have
all kind of difficult discussioneven for equity to like money,
Putting in your own money kindof things but at the end of it

(25:07):
was like look this is my risk,this is my reward.
I need you to come in with this.
you know, this is what I can putin.
If not, these are the thingsthat I hope, will be reasonable.
For example, let's say, if youcannot put in money, then I
might need more equity.
It's very straightforward.
So this kind of discussions, ina sense, it may help that we are
engineers.
Engineers tend to be very niceto each other.

(25:28):
My view is that generally,disagreements wise, it's like,
laying out a logical reasoningof why I disagree with you.
This is what we want to achieve.
So whenever you're disagreement,the first thing is like at least
common agreement on what we aretrying to achieve here.
Okay.
And what are we disagreeing on?
And then, um, you can alwaysmeet a path or so like, this is

(25:48):
something I learned because Iused to always like be very
middle ground.
Okay.
I think everybody happy.
No, no, no, no.
As I learned through, I realizedlike you may need to pick some
battles and win.
Some battles you may need tolike, just let go because maybe
the consequence is not highenough.
So it's a balance, like if it'ssomething that you really feel
strongly about, you know, it'slike you may need a veto, he may

(26:12):
need a veto for certain things.
But for certain things which arelike of very high value for your
domain, you may need to justsay, look, I need you to trust
me with this.
We have to go here with this.
Can you reorganize?
And I think that's when the roledifferentiation also comes in
because like at the end of theday, you need to choose a CEO,
right?
And, there's a reason why I'm aCEO because you are actually

(26:34):
managing a few domains.
So I think this helped in astructure.
It also probably helped a littlebit.
I'm older than my co founder.
So, you know, a bit morecommercial experience as well,
obviously.
So that helped with thedynamics, But, yeah, I think
there is certain battles whereyou got to win.
Like you just gotta put yourfoot down and win certain
battles where you just gottalike, is it worth winning this

(26:56):
one?
No.
Just let go and let other personwin.
You know?
'cause maybe they feel verystrongly about it and it might
be for the good becauseeverybody's on a common vision.

Eric (27:04):
So how do you kind of split the roles in the early
days with Tang?

Rishab (27:07):
think in the super, super early days, it's about
product development, right,like, limited resources.
he was a mechanical guy, I wasthe software guy.
So that I think, there was,there was, when it comes to
hardware and electronics, whathappened was that I would say

(27:28):
that, Okay, so this is a bias.
I'm a computer engineer, so Iwould think that You know,
computer electrical engineerstend to be better at code.
I don't trust mechanicalengineers with code.
So, it's a, it's a, it's thattuffle, right, you know, where
like, You have a certain,training on how to get things
done.
For mechanical side, I touchvery briefly and after that, I

(27:48):
trust my co founder with it.
But, I think, what we realizedwas that, in the initial stages,
this is a pro development phase,right?
Well, this is the place wheremost quarrels happen as well,
because, it's all logical, youknow, with different viewpoints.
For me, I never trusted hismechanical, cause it's like, it
didn't look or feel good.
It was the one that works, butthen it's like it's not
repeatable or reliable.

(28:09):
That was the challenge I had.
His side is like, the softwareis like, he's like, he would say
I'm, he's forgot the software, Iwould say because of the
hardware.
I think, in the end it was like,you know, if the things are not
working, right, we are verystrongly believing that it's
because this thing is notworking because of our scope of
view.
Yeah, so those kind of things,and then, you know, how to
overcome those was like, Forhardware electrical, I think,

(28:31):
you know, you need, especiallywhen you're just out of
university, I think you needexperience, software as well,
but, for hardware electrical,for prototype phase, also you
need experience.
I think what I realized was thatFreshCat cannot.
That's the truth.
You need, you no, masters cannotalso.
You need experience in theindustry.
So we actually engage outsourcepartners.
And then we learn from thembecause we saw them doing it,

(28:53):
right?

Eric (28:54):
How do you find these

Rishab (28:55):
You gotta pay money and, engage them, right?

Eric (28:57):
And then they couldn't, do a good job?

Rishab (28:59):
the earliest one in Singapore did a good job for the
scope of work that we gave them.
But then we realised like, andthat's when the real shift in
thinking happened.
We cannot be doing thedevelopment work ourselves.
We need to control the productbecause at the day, if I have
15k, I try to make it myself,you test it in the market,
straight away it's a no go.
Then you just wasted your time.

Eric (29:19):
I have

Rishab (29:19):
If I have 15k, you pay 15k to a party, you get
something out, you quickly test,you realize a failure, you just
burn 15k and you burn less time.
And then you can get the nextiteration, next iteration, next
iteration.
I think that was a learning.
One thing that struck me wasthat we need to control product
testing.
We need to do product testing.
We cannot be in development modeforever.
Because if you're always in alab, you're not even testing it
on the ground.

(29:40):
You're getting nowhere.
So the fastest way to getsomething out that you can test.
Is to de risk on all the thingsthat we can't control and then
double down on a secret sauce Weknow a secret sauce will be
software, you know AI and

Eric (29:55):
and software.

Rishab (29:56):
So secret sauce initially We basically started
doing all of those thingsourselves We tried to you know,
so Zeng's role became from doingthe mechanical design and
electrical design work tomanaging it And for me, was
like, software was somethingthat was too expensive.
So we couldn't outsource becausethe cost outside was too high.
That's why I was doing it myselffor a bit.
And then we started hiring inhouse team.

(30:18):
You know, once we had funding,the first team that we hired was
software.
So that, you know, that can alsobecome continuously developed.
And it's, it's still not easy.
I think we have come a long way.
Now we have, continuous momentumin software development and even
mechanical, electrical, we havea strong party to work with.
But, Yeah, it's a shift and whatthis shift allowed us is now we
can focus on product.

Eric (30:38):
We can

Rishab (30:38):
focus on testing the customer requirements.
You can focus on testing all theparameters of success.
And of course there's alsodrawbacks.
The drawback is that now yourdependencies, you know, on
partners, you've got tocommunicate those things and
make those changes happen.
Instead of doing it yourself,which is always faster.
But the good thing is that onceyou pay them, they have to

(30:59):
deliver, you know.
On the point of outsourcing,actually, there's a lot of early
stage advice out there that says

Eric (31:07):
They don't deliver.
You burn the money, but youstill grow the output.
I would say

Rishab (31:20):
as a hardware, hardware startup?
Because there are founders whoare told to just try to learn
everything themselves

Eric (31:31):
Because there are founders who are told to just try to
learn everything themselves andbuild everything because if they
outsource, then they might endup, you know, getting something
they don't like, having toreiterate and ending up wasting
more money, right?
So how, I guess, what youmanaged to do here is you
control the outsource processquite well and you are very sure
about what you want and youactually get what you want at
the end of the day.
How, how do you, how do

Rishab (31:50):
you actually get what you want at the end of day.
By communicating what you needto the parties and then making
sure it's within the budget andthen you get things moving So I
think that's a difference You'restill the one because you have

(32:12):
full visibility and control overwhat exactly is being put in How
are they doing this stuff?
And there's also knowledge

Eric (32:17):
also knowledge transfer walk me through your experience
at GRIP.
How did that help you?

Rishab (32:23):
I would say GRIP was a very, you know, good starting
point for us.
GRIP, you know, is a rigorousaccelerator.
my challenge was I was the onlystartup that was still undergrad
while doing GRIP.
Most GRIP startups are.
That's why it's called GraduateResearch Innovation Program,
right?
And not Undergraduate ResearchInnovation Program.
Well, I was having a bit of atime management challenge
because, you know, there's fulltime university essay on my

(32:45):
classes.
A little bit of social life.
I was an in house RA at the sametime.
And I was also doing GRIP.
So, that one was mayhem for me.
It was like, no sleep at all.
GRIP was quite rigorous.
I think they really went throughproduct discovery phase.
You know, how do you do marketvalidation, product validation,
all of those things.

(33:05):
Specification determinationbecause deep tech.
So some of the things were a bitmore deep tech focus as well.
How do you get certification?
How do you plan forcertification?
How do you plan for IP?
All this kind of thing.
So that was very valuable.
I think we still tap on to itsometimes.
I think the other thing thatGRIP was very strong at is the
network.
NUS GRIP just called me into ameeting one day.
It's like, oh, this is KlenaPerkins right in front of you.

(33:26):
The partners are right in frontof you.
Come pitch your startup to them.
This is NUS GRIP.
So they are really connected.
They have a lot of strength.
it's an institution.
Sometimes it can be a bitacademic.
Sometimes it can be a bit slow.
One thing I would say is that,you know, tap onto the strengths
of NUS ecosystem.
But don't follow blindly forany, founders who are interested

(33:47):
in GRIP because, you know, evenwith the best intention, use
your lens or filter tounderstand whether the person,
what he's saying for a certaindomain of, comments is justified
with experience in that space,or is it just a observatory, you
know, remark.
Why I say that is because theNUS GRIP team is a wonderful
team.

(34:08):
Some of them are reallyexperienced business people with
traditional business backgroundbecause that's what Singapore's,
ecosystem is.
But when you are looking intothe high growth startup,
advisory, I think there's alimited pool and hence, limited,
resources that they have ontheir front, but they do have
it.
Especially the seniorleadership, the kind of contacts
they have, I'm mind blown.

Eric (34:27):
they have, but it might grow.
Well, when were buildingourselves, we were trying to
build together

Rishab (34:37):
Well, when we first were building ourselves, we were
trying to build together aprototype that we can use to
demonstrate a showcase topotential customers.
So we can get resources to buildfurther, right?
most of it is a disaster.
You go there, half the thingsdon't work, and suddenly things
don't work here and there, andthen you start stabilizing
things.
Mostly with hardware andelectrical, because, you know,
that's the things that is mostunstable in the early phases.

(35:00):
for testing, we basically wentthrough one of the things I
learned from the Chinesecompanies is they actually put
together concept videos, whichwas very cheap and very good way
to test.
We put together concept videos,of what we want a product to
look like, just cost a fewhundred dollars, you know, get
an Indonesian animator to do it.
And then, we show it tocustomers like this, what are
you trying to build?
What's your comments on it?
So that's one layer of testing.

(35:21):
We also went in as cleanersourselves to intern for a week
in a hotel.
Within one hour, we know thathotels shouldn't be our target
market segment initially becausethe toilets are too small and
much more variety.
And from a technical feasibilitystandpoint, it was not easy.
So there's very good,invalidation, right?
You know, then you know that youdon't position yourself in

(35:41):
hotels.
How did, how did the

Eric (35:57):
when you walk in there, you're telling them, Hey, I got
this video, I have this product,but it only comes in two years.
Like, can you sign this for me?
how

Rishab (36:02):
explain this to me?
How does it work?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We tell them that, look, youknow, can you help us?
You know, essentially we are astart up.
These LOIs will help us withfundraising.
This will cost you nothing.
And, you know, this will alsoallow us to kickstart as a
company.
As a committed early partner,we'll be working very closely
with you.
So I don't want to, you know,some people, right, they give

(36:23):
away things like exclusivity andthings like that for allies.
No, that's ridiculous.
Don't go do that.
One thing is that I'll call itbe a little bit cocky.
You cannot be like begging forthings.
People want what they cannotget.
It's a freaking mantra of life,whether it's dating or it's set
up or even client.
So you need to present leverage.
how do you present leverage?
Look, you want a toilet cleaningrobot because this will disrupt

(36:45):
your operation, which is verystrong validation as well, you
know, on the product demand.
And you go and tell them that ifyou sign me this, I will
prioritize you.
Now I need 1000 units LOI fromyou.
Can you sign?
And I give you the cost as well.
We can have further discussions.
You know, this is non binding.
You help me, I help you.

Eric (37:05):
love how you're pitching it to me right now.
Okay, okay.
Was there a point where yourealized, okay, there's, there's
some sort of product market fitafter speaking to a few more
customers, you know, was there acertain point, like, after your
10th customer or something?

Rishab (37:19):
Because the demand or the urgency is so high,
customers are starting to giveus POs, pre orders, waiting to
pay up front.
that

Eric (37:26):
orders that are going to come a year or two later?
Yes,

Rishab (37:28):
they are willing to not pay one year in advance, but
give us orders.
And then once we are ready, withtwo or three months payment
terms, they'll pay up front.

Eric (37:37):
Wow.

Rishab (37:38):
So that's kind of things.
Of course, we are not Elon Muskto go and take all the money
first.
We are Asian.
this is something could be aweakness as well.
Like we were hesitant to takemoney.
In fact, we were deliveringpilots where we didn't take
money for a long time locally,because we wanted to meet our
milestone requirements becauseonce you take money, we feel
that we have a responsibility togive a successful, result or

(38:01):
customer, even if it is a pilotphase.
So I think we were hesitant.
Now I think our confidence ismuch higher to start taking.
That's why we are kickstartingthe pilot sales.
How did

Eric (38:11):
spend the first 100k of funding?
And, how much did you pay

Rishab (38:14):
of funding and how much did you pay yourself?
When you're doing a greatprogram, they also give you 10k
so part of 100k goes backbecause you need to pay back,
the 10k that you they gave youearlier because that's supposed

(38:35):
to be reimbursed from theinvestment Then your 90k then
you have to pay for a licensefee.
So I did all those things Youdon't really have a lot left
that's what and then the thingis we are doing hardware,
assembly manufacturing oranything like that You engage
contractors.
It's not cheap So that alsodisappears some of the cash.
So all in it was very fastwithin like three months, you
know 100k will disappear forhardware, but It's not really

(38:59):
paying us salary.
So we were quite clear that withthat 100k we need to build our
next milestone and the nextmilestone essentially was
Getting to a demonstrable unit,you know something we can demo
to people.
So, um, actually Before the 100kmy family actually put in about
30 40k

Eric (39:18):
same as well.

Rishab (39:19):
So I had to use my own money for a bit.
And then my family actuallyinvested a hundred K as well, So
that was what was necessary.
You get it off the ground.
We were struggling a lot to getangel investors.
We were working very hard to getit and get the narrative right.
So it's also partly theecosystem was a little bit early
when it comes to hardware inSingapore.
So we struggle a lot.

(39:39):
So until we found our pre seedVCs and you know, it's
interestingly how we found themwas I flew to Silicon Valley.
And then like, in Singapore, wemet some VCs who were local.
I told them, look, SiliconValley, I got this, this, this
offer.
You want to take it or leave it?
And then they were like, okayla, take it.

Eric (39:54):
Oh, we'll get more into your fundraising stories later,
but maybe back to product marketfit.
how do you find product marketfit as a hard tech hardware
startup with super longdevelopment cycles?
I guess there's, things you haveto tweak in between that your
customers want and certainthings that, eventually feed
into the ultimate end product.
Right.
So what other things do you doin terms of product development?

Rishab (40:17):
I guess, like, what's the MVP like for you?
MVP is something that you rollout fast, fail fast, you get all
the issues fast.
So MVP is like what you think,you get it out first based on
your assessment.
You get it out, you get in anoperational environment, you

(40:37):
learn all the things that youdon't know.

Eric (40:39):
learn all the things

Rishab (40:40):
Oh, we had an extra robot to bring down, yeah.
it

Eric (40:43):
it was first the video, and then after the video you

Rishab (40:46):
You have to get a robot,

Eric (40:47):
building

Rishab (40:48):
A simple robot.

Eric (40:49):
probably that few hundred K went into like, you know, a
robot

Rishab (40:52):
So, the first 100K actually went into a very basic
robot that can't really clean,but can show the cleaning
concept.
So the steamer inside is like a100 steamer, which can't really
be used for real cleaning.
But, you know, those kind ofthings integrate together, try
to make it look, feel, anddemonstrate.
And then from there, we get afeedback from our customers.

Eric (41:12):
we get feedback from the customers.
All done by ourselves.
I think, when we

Rishab (41:24):
The videos and stuff is, you know, one layer.
It helps for two purposes.
It also gives you the conceptcommunicated to investors and
clients much better.
What exactly are you looking at?
Because when you show them areal, then they will pick on all
the things that will technicallyget resolved by commercial.
So you want to tell them, look,

Eric (41:41):
that,

Rishab (41:42):
instead of trying to show them something physical
first and then get bombarded byunanswered questions, show them
the final concept.
Okay.

Eric (41:49):
and then we will be able to upgrade it.
Right.
I think, um,

Rishab (41:56):
stakeholders, investors, your clients and internal teams.
Very informal communication.
So we update them on goodthings, bad things.
We just share with them.
So of course, if it's a bit moredifferent profile, investors
might be a bit different.
we may have to actually prepareformal, things to share, but my
investors have been very closewith the founders.
So I think that's what our VCs,when it comes to clients and my

(42:18):
internal team, To start, Theorganization took a while.
Let's just put it this way.
To organize internal teamcommunication towards getting
things moving, we required roleidentification.
You cannot everyone Doingeverything.
So between me and my co founder,of course, we had role splits
But we had overlaps as wellbecause there's only two right?
But once we started havinghires, things started getting

(42:38):
much more clearer So becausethen we had a head of
engineering that helped tomanage engineering team What
happens then is that youactually have distinct roles for
the C suits So then engineeringonce you have a head of
engineering and engineering teamyou should not technically have
to do that anymore.
And then product is likesomething that my co founder
evolved into taking on.

(42:59):
So he communicates withengineering team to get
everything internal, because COOeverything internal is being
managed while I get more time tofocus on a strategic and
external.
So this is a transition, noteasy because.
You were the one doing a lot ofthings yourself first, but the
communication cycle becomesbetter, you have processes in
place, sprint, meetings, youhave weekly, goal setting

(43:20):
meetings, all these things arecoming into play.

Eric (43:21):
Yeah, moving into advisors and team, when did you start
taking on more advisors andbuilding your team as compared
to, you know, two of you, youall were building this product
in the early days?

Rishab (43:29):
Very early on, we basically found Advisor Lee.
She was a former APEC Directorof Sodexo, one of the world's
largest cleaning companies.
So, we thought that having heron board has a multi pronged,
value for us.
One was that she was running abusiness consultancy that
included startups.
So, she could help us withreviewing our story lining
narrative and everything for us.
Fundraising and that was onedomain other domain was a

(43:52):
context being one of the largestcleaning company in the world So
she can understand how tostructure things to sell the
cleaning companies becausethat's an pre loi era We don't
even have any loi set so havingher on board and she also
actually connected us with a lotof angels And collectively they
contributed almost severalhundred thousand dollars worth
of investment.
So an Advisor like that is likeSpot on, you know, that's the

(44:14):
kind of advisors that can helpyou to really get past your
finish line.
We also had a technical advisor,so we basically engaged a PhD in
robotics, who at early stages,writing the code together with
us, when we couldn't really pay.
So, it was expensive on equitywise, but, at that phase of
time, to cross that, hurdle, weneeded to use that.

Eric (44:36):
Money

Rishab (44:37):
Because no money, right?

Eric (44:38):
Okay.

Rishab (44:39):
Advisor is all equity, yeah,

Eric (44:40):
yeah.
Okay.
r and d at Hyper is differentfrom, NRF or like a national,
robotics Right.
Foundation.

Rishab (44:47):
Hybotics is a commercial company.
We're not a research institute.
So, a lot of things we do, it'sunder very strict timelines, and
he needs to go commercial.
So that's the two pressures whenit's more research oriented,
there's less, focus on therepeatability reliability is
more towards groundbreakinginnovation.
I think hypothetics is like, youstill need to do some

(45:10):
groundbreaking innovation, butit's about how do you stabilize
as quickly as possible, becausewe need to deliver this thing to
a real customer.

Eric (45:16):
Yeah, and I guess there is some sort of commercialization
in NRF, I think they do.

Rishab (45:21):
try but

Eric (45:21):
I think it's

Rishab (45:22):
I think it's a mandate, so, I mean, for, it's like
percentage, right?
Hybotics would be like 90percent focus on
commercialization, NRF maybe adifferent percentage, share But,
you know, it's very importantfrom my observation that, you
know, Companies like Hyboticsand institutions like NRF and
Aritian Institutes work closetogether Because they may have
complementary strengths andweaknesses.

Eric (45:44):
you mentioned product development as an expedition.
Do you wanna talk more aboutthat word expedition or is this
not worth talking about

Rishab (45:50):
more about that word, expedition, or is this?
Sure, sure.
Is this not worth talking about?
Starting to also start thinkingabout like, okay, the

(46:11):
consultancy and outsourcing hasgotten us to a baseline.
Now we can actually start takingover our own thing.
We may not need theconsultancies.
So it's a very different shift.
So it, but what I realized is wedidn't do it this way.
My competitors burned five toten million dollars trying to do
it themselves and they couldn'tget the product out.
We burned one million dollarsand we're almost out.
So that's the difference.

Eric (46:31):
How much run rate do you have?

Rishab (46:32):
this is confidential, but Hibotics is fundraising
currently.
we technically in the runway wedo have, you know, because we
have pilot revenues coming in,we do have good, healthy runway
ahead.
But, we are looking forfundraising in order to really
commercialize successfully andfast because Without raising our
next round, we won't be able toupgrade the hardware to

(46:54):
certified level performance andwe need a bigger team to support
our operations.

Eric (46:58):
team to support our operations.

Rishab (47:01):
I won't call it temptation.
I think we always were committedbecause we saw the market demand
for this, the demand, once youhave so much demand and LOIs and
sales, that's one thing that mymentor, who actually led one of
the largest, public companies inSingapore actually told me is
that, sales validation must comebefore product.
You need to go and validate yourproduct, demand.
When you have so huge demand,you yourself know that this

(47:25):
market can work.
It's just, you need someresources to get there.
the incentive to pivot is less.
The incentive to pivot is whenyou are unknown, you know,
market demand, right?
That's when you have incentiveto pivot.
Here is a case where you knowthat this thing will work.
You just have, we need to buildand you don't have resources to
build.
So you start channeling a lot ofyour time and resources towards
finding the resources.

(47:45):
we had some moments where wewere like thinking about maybe
for survival purposes, it mightbe easier to do something else.
That, that's a very differentkind of a thought process.
It's not an invalidation

Eric (47:57):
it's more of a short term Revenue generation or something
along those lines.

Rishab (48:01):
So, that's some of the things.
I think having those optionsavailable to you is good.
If I had a chance, I wouldactually Love to have.
I mean, this is something youdon't tell VCs you have it
internally.
I would love to have a serviceteam, you know, that is actually
generating some revenue.
So I never come under financialpressure and you know,
completely independent on VCmoney.
Yeah.
So that would be awesome.
And you can scale up and downyour r and d efforts

Eric (48:22):
YC actually, uh, had a podcast where they were saying
how the success rates of, deeptech and software startups are
actually very similar.
Even though you would thinkthat, hardware would be a lot
more risky with, hugeinvestments, but I think it's
because of what you said aboutthe demand being validated very
strongly, the main risk iswhether you can build it or not.
Whereas for a software startup,it's more of whether what you're

(48:43):
making is even worth anything.

Rishab (48:45):
You need to ask YC how come they are not investing
enough in hardware.
Okay.
What I also learned as I wasgoing into this hardware journey
is that a lot of the traditionalhardware companies make huge
amount of money and they are notvaluation game.
You won't even know their names,but companies, they can be
making aircraft part one part,and they can be making like 30,
40, 000 profit on one part.

(49:06):
And they ship like 1000 partsper month.

Eric (49:09):
So there are

Rishab (49:09):
are these kind of companies and you never hear
about their name.
They are run by X, maybe membersof like GE, Collins Aerospace,
all these kind of companies.
Those who leave the company,they go and create companies to
supply to these companies.
Huge money.
And I was like, wow, that's likeactual, forget about startups,
forget all these things.
These guys make actual millionsof profit and they can pay

(49:31):
themselves that profit a hundredpercent if they want to each
year, year on year.
The evaluation, nobody knows.
It's like, you don't care.
It's all about churning out thecash.
Like, so, it's very interesting.
Um,

Eric (49:44):
I

Rishab (49:45):
mean, it's a different type of business opportunities,
but hardware on its own.
It's not necessarily, you know,you can make 60, 70, 80 percent
profit margins really well.
What we are doing is we'reproductized hardware.
Think instead of like, you know,supply chain hardware.
Productized hardware is, a bitharder.
But, that's when you have toYour price is set by the
market's,

Eric (50:05):
your price

Rishab (50:09):
Yep, yep, yep.

Eric (50:11):
there's no equivalence.

Rishab (50:16):
looked a bit more scrappy, and now it looks like
super futuristic.
Do you have anything, anylessons around

Eric (50:22):
think the design

Rishab (50:24):
I think, design for robotics is that, whoever tells
you you need industrial designfirst is telling you nonsense.
You need functionality first,but don't make it look like a
metal, like go and paint it.
Go and do something basic tomake it look pleasant or
palatable.
Right?
I think at least that is good.
So I think, it's a good balance.
You don't need to look superfancy.

(50:45):
people care about functionalitymost in your video.
Definitely make it fancy.
You know, it's animated anyways.
Make sure it looks good.
Looks, feels, touches like agreat thing, but, you know,
don't spend too much time theredesign wise, design for
functionality first.
Okay.
But at the same time, Try tomake it modular such that you
can, quickly switch things out.

(51:06):
Think a bit about like, what ifthis fails?
This doesn't, it's invalidated.
So you need a change.
For example, in our case, it'slike seat lifting.
It's a very complex process.
We had multiple designiterations for it.
The ideas were failing.
We chose to use aggregated, youknow, Designs, for example, we
use steamer, but the sameequipment can also blow dry.

(51:27):
It can also water jet, you know,so this kind of things.
Oh yeah.
I think something veryinteresting to share is that for
hybridics, we try to minimizereinventing the wheel.
Like we are not cleaningequipment manufacturers, like we
don't make steamers and thingslike that.
So don't be an Idiot, like I'lluse the word idiot and try to
build those things yourself atthe earliest phase because you
don't have time that it's notSomething you should be
building.

(51:48):
You should just go and buy adamn steamer, hack it apart, put
it into your system That'sliterally the fastest way to get
a steamer working into yoursystem Yeah, that's exactly and
then you hack it apart, right?
So we now work very closely withthe global cleaning equipment
manufacturer because even atcommercial scales We think that
this is the best way to moveforward because one it gives you
Dedicated cleaning qualitythat's already validated for

(52:10):
years and is sold, It also givesyou access to their customer
base because they themselveshave an incentive to publicize
and market you So it's a multifactor value add, so I think
that Those that's why back tothe question about should you
build everything in houseyourself?
There's strategic value not todo so

Eric (52:27):
In terms of building your team now, you're currently in a
Phase 3.
What have you learned abouthiring from Phase 1 to Phase 3?
Right.
Hiring

Rishab (52:32):
Right, hiring for phase 3, I think, in the first phase,
there was no hiring yet.
You know, it was more ofoutsource and consultant hiring.
experience was that,consultants, you have good
consultants, you have badconsultants.
don't put your eggs in onebasket.
Be ready to fire.
fire fast, hire slowly.
this is the mantra that Ilearned.
Don't waste time, fire.
in phase two we had some hires.
We were really nice people weregreat, motivated people, but we

(52:55):
hired them based on personalityinstead of like a skill sets
fit.
So, you know, it's very, it'svery ironic, right?
So when I was looking at my cofounder, I had a very clear sets
of, you know, things that I waslooking for when we were hiring,
we were, because of ourexperience with consultants, we
were hiring based on people thathave above and beyond
motivation.
I realized that if the skill setfit is not there, you know, then

(53:17):
they have a hard time becausethey need to pick up things very
fast.
And they're not founders.
That's the difference.
You cannot put employees on thesame level of expectation as
founders.
That's my learning lesson.
They are not the same.
It's just different.

Eric (53:30):
different.

Rishab (53:31):
And so the thing is that, as founders, you need to
burn the midnight oil.
You need to stay overnight, dowhatever needs to be done to
pick up the skill sets, youbetter do it.
And even then, like if you havesomeone who has a very big gap,
it's going to take forever tocatch up.
I think this is a learning forme.
My original philosophy was, Iwas focused on individuals and
the character, rather than skillsets.

(53:52):
I believed that everybody canlearn everything.
I've been proven wrong.
I don't believe that anymore.
I think character alone is notenough.
Character is very important, forsure, but you need both.
Like, now it's just both.
You're doing something

Eric (54:08):
a

Rishab (54:09):
and difficult.
in robotics, I'm guessing yoursalaries are pretty

Eric (54:21):
to let him go.
Yeah, I did.

Rishab (54:27):
qualified people.
Fire fast, hire slowly.
That's why consultants, youknow, agencies are good because
you pay based on success.
If they don't deliver, theydon't get paid.
If you hire wrong people, you'regonna be paying salaries and you
don't get delivery.
So that's why I say fire fast.
Is success based agencies, wasthat part of how you outsource
things?

(54:47):
Yes, yes.
Yeah, so you basically give amilestone.
We also had bad experience.
We basically went to Vietnam.
We engaged a hardware companythere.
It was a terrible experiencebecause we learned out that what
they promised us, like they have10 people of engineers, you
know, PhDs and all that kind ofthing go there.
They're all interns working onthe project.
then they are PhD, all theseguys are all remote, you know,
from different countries tryingto look, tap in.

(55:09):
The experience was, theengineering quality was utter
rubbish.
So bad that like, essentiallyit, we had a terminate contract.
So that's where contractuallydoing things is very important.
We had contractual protections,every single thing we went
through lawyers, we insisted ongoing to a lawyer, making sure
everything is contractual.
So you see, whenever you start arelationship, it's always
honeymoon, right?
But it's when things don't gowell, you need the way to

(55:32):
divorce nicely and make sure youget alimony.
So I think for us, we had toterminate contract without
having to pay for, you know, nondeliverables from the
contractor.
So I think that was not easybecause the contractor also
feels like, they did their best,but incompetency is something
you cannot fight.
Incompetency is something youmust just cut.
That's what I learned.

Eric (55:52):
I learned.
I a lot of it now is aboutreliability.
A lot of issues we

Rishab (56:07):
think a lot of it now is about repeatability and
reliability.
A lot of our issues we face isno longer functionality.
We can clean, you know, we havedemonstrator cleaning.
You saw the videos, they arereal, they are not orchestrated.
They are just speed up for thesake of LinkedIn.
But they are actually real timevideos with no intervention in
between.
So we can clean, you can see it.
It's what you see, it's exactlywhat you've done.
Speed also, we have alreadyaddressed most of it now.

(56:28):
functionality wise, yes.
The problem is, you know, softfailures and hard failures.
When soft failures happen, theyare still becoming catastrophic.
You know, hard failures are alsohappening too often.
So

Eric (56:38):
and heart failures.

Rishab (56:39):
Hard failure would be like, say, a robot going into a
collision, with a wall.
Or, for example, there's a lotof mechanical parts.
Some of the parts may, havecalibration issues, so it cannot
pick the tool properly, it maycollide into the tool.
This kind of little things arevery annoying.
Sometimes the AI, you know, thisis a toilet bowl, it may plan
like, this is a toilet bowl,this is offset.
So all these kind of things,it's about reliability.

(57:01):
And that's something where weface challenges because our team
is too small.
So when it came to reliability,the team was always stretched
thin.
So, and we have limitedresources.
So one of the things we arelooking at now is we are
actually going to relocate someof the engineering to India.
So we are setting up oursoftware.
We are going to graduallyrelocate everything now because

(57:21):
Singapore is expensive.
Unless we have enough funds tosustain Singapore, we are
actually relocating by defaultnow.

Eric (57:28):
actually relocating by default now.
Deep tech hard tech startupecosystem.
So you mentioned that Singaporeis a really tough environment to
be building robotics.
So what more can be done withinSingapore?
Well, I thought about this quitehard.
I think one of the things I saw,like a lot of our strongest
interns coming out from NUS, thefirst thing they do after they
came to NUS, go to BerkeleyMasters and then they disappear

(57:51):
from Singapore.

Rishab (57:51):
So somehow creating enough opportunities for them in
Singapore to take on theprojects here would be really
good

Eric (57:57):
They disappear from Singapore?

Rishab (57:59):
They get out singaporeans get out of
singapore Because they get thegood ones get opportunities in
the u.
s.
And this is not a singaporespecific problem I even went to
india, right?
I found out from the companiesthere the good engineers the
moment there are two years ofexperience in robotics They get
pushed by us.
So there is this and even wentto china, right?
Interestingly, I found like fromyou know, some of the guys from
india They're freaking CTO inChina for a robotic company,

(58:22):
which is like bloody funny.
So I see that there is thistalent drain towards US and
China in general, for robotics.
That's a very specific thingthat I see.
Interestingly, Singapore canalso be a talent drainer
because, ASAR actually gets alot of robotic engineers from
India, for example.
So, but what I realized is thatSingapore has a few challenges.

(58:42):
One is that, for startup.

Eric (58:43):
up,

Rishab (58:44):
We usually do not have that many hardware VCs in
Singapore, very limited.
And, that also means that, thecapital that we have, we have to
deal with like fresh grads androbotics is something where you
need specialized knowledge,which is very deep.
So that's why it's called deeptech as well.
You'll need people with likemaybe five years experience in
on average for each domain sothey can really contribute to
fundamental development.

(59:05):
You can do POCs and prototypeswith fresh grads, but you cannot
do commercial grade projectswith fresh grads.
That's the thing that I learnedfrom robotics.
But you don't have the money tohire at Singapore rates for the
commercial grade people, eventhough they are good.
So, it's a catch 22 problem.
I also looked into Malaysia.
Quality is so so, you know.
I would say that the best thingfor Singaporean startups is that

(59:28):
don't try to outsource inSoutheast Asia.
There's just not enough talent.
Singapore is already the best.
You need to look at China andIndia for robotics.
That's how you low cost, and youneed the early phases.
Once you have money, then youcan keep, major RD in Singapore,
the good thing is IP isprotected.
Well here, Singaporeans can bereally hardworking.
I think, that's, my experience,really hardworking.

(59:48):
then they can go extra mile aswell.

Eric (59:51):
Why does it look like Singapore is trying, or at least
trying to position itself aslike a robotics hub?
I feel like the reality feelsquite different, right?
You see news about robots forcleaning, for more surveillance,
surgery, construction,manufacturing, even the software
side of things.

Rishab (01:00:08):
I would say Singapore is a robotics hub, but it's not one
that develops robots.
I think what Singapore is, is ithas the second highest robot
adoption per capita in theworld.
number one is Korea, number twois Singapore, number three is
Japan.
So Singapore is ahead of Japanin robot adoption per capita.
So, we are a very strongrobotics hub.
We have commercialization ofrobotics at scale.
But it's a tiny market, come on.

(01:00:29):
Like, Singapore, even if you dorobots everywhere, it's still
freaking tiny.
So, that's the reality of it.
the challenge we have is that,like if you go to Korea, Korea
makes some of the biggestrobotic companies in the world.
Singapore is starting to lookinto that space.
Lionsport being one of the, youknow, inspirations.
Harbotics want to be number two.
Kabam Robotics.
So many great companies comingout.

(01:00:50):
But I think at the scale oflike, you know, Korea, the
amount of investment, even statebacked investment, Doosan
Robotics, you know, 300 millionIPO, all these kind of things we
don't see yet.
I think, my personal grudge isthat essentially I feel like our
institutions, right, they havethe best intentions, like, you
know, we have our governmentagencies and stuff.
But their own bureaucracy or thepivot or the speed of moving

(01:01:13):
into it is too slow.
Hyperbolic has gotten zerodollars of grant till date.
Which is funny.
We are like, you know, doing thething that is in the mandate for
the government, right?
And you know what we realized?
It's because of accessibility tosome of these resources.

Eric (01:01:29):
It's very slow.

Rishab (01:01:31):
So the model Singapore works in, right, is like left
hand, right hand.
you have to, let's say you havegrants, right, if you're working
with like a government agency,then, you know, it kind of
channels back in, feeds backinto the system, which is the
traditional model for Singapore.
But this model, right, is verydisincentivizing for, Private
sector growth because VCs maynot come in, the local ecosystem

(01:01:52):
people are already a bitconservative because they
haven't been exposed to thiskind of like higher risk, higher
return, ecosystem.
So what I see is that It needsto be driven by government.
The government needs to startthinking less about ROI, because
you are the government.
You can take more risks.
You need to start throwing moneyinto, like, potentials and
expecting not much returns, andthen you will have some

(01:02:14):
successes, and that willactually inspire a generation.
I think this is what they needto do.
The current approach is stillvery safe.
you get the researchinstitutions, they get IPs
generated as your KPIs, and Ifyou're looking at a private
startup, that is not a researchinstitution, trying to tap onto
this funding is very difficult.

Eric (01:02:31):
misaligned incentives there, to be building the next,
world changing robotic startup,in Singapore at least.
But, I guess one push I have onHyportics, maybe shifting gears
to competition.
Competition is mostly now in theU.
S., Israel, and yeah, evenEurope, and are there any in
Asia?
and if not, then shouldn't therebe some sort of advantage, you

(01:02:53):
know, building for Asia, inAsia?
Differentiating yourself,because if you have no
competition in Asia, then, you

Rishab (01:02:59):
okay, my competition is coming up in Singapore.
Two more companies are coming upin Singapore.
One of them is a public company.
That's the robot.
The other one is a startup aswell, but earlier stages in us.
So there's combination coming upthat's.
cash oriented because like, youknow, we kind of spurred the
competition yeah, so it's Asianthing Um, I think even in China
there are people, companiesstarting on this thing, I would

(01:03:20):
say that Hybotics, what we aredoing is that we are in a
leading position right nowResources will mean that we can
lead further.
I see Asia as a potential mediumterm market I still have a lot
of demand from China, fromIndia, from Japan, Korea but I
would say my focus right now isto go into our main market with
the U.
S.
a few reasons one is that I seethat for hybotics our team

(01:03:43):
profile makes us much moresuitable for the western market
reason is because let's say Iwas a chinese background.
I can speak chinese and stuffI'll tap on a chinese market.
It's a huge market You candouble down on it, but I have a
different profile.
It makes me more suited for thewestern market That's kind of
like a market strategy so Iguess

Eric (01:04:01):
U.
S.
is kind of the main focus fornow, um, and yeah, lots of
competitors trying to play catchup.
So, in terms of some of thefailures that you have
experienced or rejections as afounder, how do you deal with
some of those?
And what helps you to

Rishab (01:04:16):
going?
I think, rejection and failure,you got a thick skin as a
founder, it becomes like dailydose of rejection and failure.
Yeah.
Gotta get used to it.
I think for me, One is of courseyou'll be upset, you know, I've
had pitch sessions where I untildamn nice They are going to sign
the dot already, right?
Then they say a demo, somethingmess up and then like you're
like Okay, nothing in mycontrol.

(01:04:37):
What can I do?
Robot decided to have a mess upand team is all frustrated.
You crack down on them.
Everybody's unhappy together oryou're like How can we bounce
back and let's come up with aplan and make sure we can
minimize.
I cannot guarantee we'lleliminate, but let's minimize.
So the next time I bring aninvestor over, at least we do
not have that.
It happens a lot.
in robotics, especially

Eric (01:04:57):
What were some of the most difficult humps that you had to
get through as well?

Rishab (01:05:00):
Difficult humps is like You know, it takes a lot of
energy to build like a investorlead.
So you really have like onechance, you know, you want to
impress them.
So if things like, you know, andit's very frustrating sometimes
when you actually know your teamhas done a great work, but when
it comes to when it matters,things just mess up.
Murphy's law, those arerefreshing.

(01:05:21):
So now I think I have alsostarted thinking less
existentially.
Last time I used to be like, Youknow, really think existentially
for each, you know, majormeeting.
I think I've started thinkingless existentially.
That helps to ease of pressure.
It's like Well, you know, theinvestors they come here.
They might understand this is anearly stage company.
So that's like you're trying torewire yourself to justify a
little bit but it's to alsomanage because what's the worst

(01:05:43):
thing you can do?
you basically go into a spiralof crisis mode all the time.
It's not sustainable.
So I think that's something thatI learned.
second is that, You do need tocreate some crisis sometimes as
a founder, right?
You can use external, you canuse internal.
Internal is like, I want it bythis time.
External can be like, you takeon certain commitments which
force a team to work together todeliver.

(01:06:05):
So that speeds things up.
So these are some of the thingsI learned, but It's a tough
management.
Yeah, I'm still learning.
I'm not super good at it yet.

Eric (01:06:13):
a, it's a tough management.
I'm still learning, I'm notsuper good at it yet.
Well, I think,

Rishab (01:06:23):
Well, I think every accelerator has a different
mandate, so there are differentstrengths.
GRIP was very deep tech innature.
The rest were a bit more, likePlug Play was actually for
market entry to the US.
So we did in San Francisco PlugPlay.

Eric (01:06:37):
That's a six month thing, is it?

Rishab (01:06:38):
isn't it?

Eric (01:06:39):
months.
You fly in and out?

Rishab (01:06:40):
It was a two week flying period.
So it was designed forinternational companies going to
the U.
S.
So, pitching in Silicon Valleyinstead of being the one
watching the pitches, that's ahuge change.
here.
I'm getting more comfortablewith it, in a very foreign
environment.
We are also going throughprocurement accelerators like
Resodexo and even Rome Airport,for example.
Those are really exciting for usbecause that is really focused

(01:07:00):
and targeted, some of them.
So Rome Airport's accelerator istowards commercialization for
the airport itself.
So we do the pilots, they payfor the pilots.
And then if we like it, they aregoing to buy the robots.
So that's it.
amazing roadmap for us.
this is all the things we reallylike and we are hoping that we
can successfully, demonstratethose things so each accelerator
is a bit different mandate.
I would say that some are moreExternal focus on my internal

(01:07:23):
focus internal focus aboutfixing your internal issues to
get shit done and external onesabout How do you sell to
external to raise capital or getclients?

Eric (01:07:33):
now moving on to fundraising and cash management,
walk me through your cashmanagement stuff for building a
hard tech startup?

Rishab (01:07:39):
Well, I think cash management is super duper
important.
We actually do forecasting.
I actually have my CFO to helpme.
Create a template of how do youforecasting.
So all our project expenses, wereview it once a month, at least
on a daily basis, every singleexpense that goes through,
someone needs to fill the form,that essentially is a Google
form.
And then automatically adds tomy Excel sheet and basically

(01:07:59):
every single day, or at leastmaybe with two days or three
days of max offset, I have fullvisibility on the breakdown of
what kind of expense and, thisgives me a lot of control.
It lets me know when I'm goingto run out of money.
It lets me know, like, you know,where the expenses are getting
shot up.
And as you start putting in moreprocessors and your estimation
gets better, you start gettingcloser and closer between

(01:08:20):
forecast and real.
I think that's a huge benefitbecause, okay, one thing is you
can fundraise all you want.
if you can stretch a dollarlonger, you actually have a
longer runway.
So that's the kind of thingsthat forecasting and cash flow
management helps.

Eric (01:08:33):
learnings on fundraising in terms of, structuring, debt,
grants, equity.
What kind of funding structuresdo you find most helpful for,

Rishab (01:08:42):
kind of funding structure do you find most
helpful for deep tech projects?
We already have very strongprocesses set in place to use

(01:09:03):
those dollars wisely because youmay have companies that may
spend two, three milliondollars, right?
Because they had such a longrunway that they were invested
in the wrong thing faster.
Because when you have lessmoney, what happens is that it
makes you cut.
Your non performing assets fast.
It makes you fire the personfaster that is not performing.
Makes you cut out the contractorfaster that's not performing.

(01:09:25):
It makes you focus on doublingdown on more clients so you can
get more investment.
So all these things, I think itcan be a blessing in disguise
having not enough money.
That's how I would put it.

Eric (01:09:36):
a tension because on one hand you want to be able to
raise to have enough runway Buton the other hand if you have
too much then it makes you a bitcomplacent as well Yeah,

Rishab (01:09:43):
think the time pressure, of money running out can be a
huge incentive.
you

Eric (01:09:48):
Talked about working with debt, so I'm guessing you also
took on some debt.
How did that fuel your growth?

Rishab (01:09:54):
I think debt is, important because, you know, one
is you don't lose equity,especially with hardware.
A lot of it is like, you know,it's a working cashflow, meaning
you need debt if you pay andthen you get paid back and you
make your money plus you'recovering the debt, right?
So if you structure it well,debt can be very powerful
instrument.
Why?
Because, the need to repay canforce you to focus on revenue.

(01:10:14):
Second, debt is cheaper thanequity.
I think this is a common, youknow, powerless in the startup
world.
The key thing about depth is, Iwould say, don't take it too
early.
I think hybridics is takingslightly early than what we
would normally like to.
Reason is because when you arehaving active cashflow, meaning
like recurring in and out,right?
Then depth is very clear.
You know what to take depth.
But if you're taking it for likeR& D, generally I prefer equity

(01:10:37):
for that phase.
So you start small, you know,SME working capital loans in
Singapore are really good.
They have 70 percent risk shareby the banks and enterprise
Singapore.
So let's say worst casescenario, your company closes
out.
You only really have to pay 30percent of your debt amount.
So, that's a very goodopportunity to start taking debt
from these platforms.
They are rigorous.

(01:10:57):
It's not easy to get this debtbecause they make sure that you
have certain ways of payback.
But, you gotta make sure that,you know, you start small.
And test waters.
You get comfortable how tomanage that.
Have your very strong cash flowmanagement and payback
mechanism.
And I think you'll be fine.

Eric (01:11:13):
Moving on to AI and how it's going to change the world.
We're in the 4th IndustrialRevolution.
Do you think robots are going totake over the world?

Rishab (01:11:20):
think robots will progressively increase their
visibility in the world, forsure.

Eric (01:11:24):
Take over, I think they're far away.

Rishab (01:11:26):
I mean, for all that's worth, every single robotic
companies I'm talking to thatare doing humanoid robots
telling me it's all nonsenseright now.
I mean, it's not nonsense, butit's getting at least five to 10
years

Eric (01:11:36):
for X and LinkedIn right now.

Rishab (01:11:37):
like even Tesla, you know, their latest launch video,
they basically had robots goingaround doing weighter, 90
percent of it was actually teleoperated by a human.
that's an important showcase toshow the potential.
That's what I meant by inhardware and deep tech, even
Tesla, they promise self drivingcars so many years on years, it
requires time.
And sometimes it's a fog of war,which I call in startup.
You do not know the complexity.

(01:11:59):
You can make estimation and allyour estimation can go haywire
out of the wind, which is therisk, because for VCs, that's
the risk that they want to derisk on.
Hybrids is special because we.
Really focus on productdevelopment through partners We
have managed to de risk veryquickly compared to other
companies.
We have a relatively stablehardware, stable software coming
up, and this was just done withvery little burn.

Eric (01:12:23):
So I guess you think robots are also overhyped, at
least in the current timescale.

Rishab (01:12:28):
current timescale.
Do you think there will be ahuman in the loop

Eric (01:12:38):
Do you think there'll be a human in the loop in the long
run?

Rishab (01:12:41):
I think in the long run, no.
I think it will be really fullyautonomous, because the AI
capabilities are also improving.
The use cases will be, havingbigger data sets, so the robot
will just basically like a chatGPT, right?
You can have multiple use casesand the robot can perform them
autonomously, because it's justlike different packages.
The more packages you build upover time, it can handle more
use cases and become generalpurpose.

Eric (01:13:02):
least for robotic applications.

Rishab (01:13:04):
I think that's where Hybotics also comes in because,
we see that we are not reallythreatened by humanoid robots
because technically they come inand why you need a toilet
cleaning specific robot, right?
But how we see is we arebuilding application layers,
application intelligence layersfor different use cases,
starting with toilet cleaning,of course.
if you have a humanoid robot,you have a hardware, you have
general control mechanism.
You still need somebody to tellyou who, who basically creates

(01:13:24):
an application layer of how therobot can perform for say, like
toilet cleaning.
Or how it performs for say,like, you know, landscaping.
So these are application layersthat Hypotix will focus on.
And I think

Eric (01:13:36):
I think Gen AI in robotics

Rishab (01:13:44):
Well, I think, Gen AI in robotics is, you know, it helps
with autonomy for setup andonboarding.
I think that's very relevant.
So for robotics, that would meanlike automatically generating
the AI model for cleaning, youknow, right?
when you talk about human andloop, I think it's a very
interesting startup example Ihave.
One of my friends, he owns acompany where they literally
have dumb robots.
Robots that are not intelligent.

(01:14:05):
Means they have arm and, canmove.
But they're tele operated fullyand what happened is he's
solving a very interesting realproblem, in America He's doing
agriculture harvesting Where allthese robots are being operated
from India with low cost labor

Eric (01:14:20):
Mm.

Rishab (01:14:20):
So the idea the problem there is labor cost, right?
But the technology is not greatenough You just got low cost
labor and the thing is it's nottime rush You can they can
slowly do can have ten peopleworking on it.
The net cost is still lower thanHarvesting the u.
s So it's very much like a

Eric (01:14:36):
think it's going to come out.
If

Rishab (01:14:41):
look at the progress of humanity, most of us used to be
farmers and we came

Eric (01:14:46):
hype about it See, there is

Rishab (01:14:54):
that is very labor intensive will start getting
eliminated.
Labor intensive and repetitive,there's two main things.
I don't think we're at likegeneral purpose niche
application, robotics yet.
But repetitive and, laborintensive things can be
relatively, in the medium term,eliminated

Eric (01:15:10):
give you one example.
So when we are doing

Rishab (01:15:15):
as a human species, would there be more interesting
jobs that come out?
There you have to replace ahuman, but at the same time,
there's a shortfall, which isincreasing, right?
In terms of labor, we areplugging in the gap and then we
are filling it up gradually.

(01:15:37):
The second thing is thatessentially, we also upgrading
jobs.
So a human cleaner is nowbecoming a robot hygiene
supervisor, right?
he's actually learning newskills on how to manage robots.
He's, learning how to maintainrobots.
How do you process theinformation from robots?
All these things.
So new jobs are created.
Now, you may argue that theratio of the jobs may be like
this.
Now it's like you have 10 lowerpaying jobs, but now you have

(01:15:57):
maybe 3 higher paying jobsinstead.
There is a consequence, but thething is that, generally if you
look at most of the countries,where we are focusing on with
robotics, are actually reallyhigh cost labor nations, where
the population is shrinking.
So this is actually quite inline with the whole demographic
change.
But if you look at countrieswhere there's high population
growth, then there's highimpact.

(01:16:19):
And I think one of the areas Isee in India, for example, they
have huge manufacturingautomation.
All the factories are fullyrobotified.
And there I see like, if theywant to be the next China, for
example, the jobs will just beautomated.
So the labor advantage justdoesn't come.
And even America may be able todo manufacturing now.

Eric (01:16:37):
and I guess it's a, as a country of high population
group, you also want to move theeconomy towards more higher
paying jobs and more innovation.
developments you're most excitedabout

Rishab (01:16:46):
So, you know, interesting, even though I'm in
this space, I only get to pickup anecdotes these days, but I
think what NVIDIA is doing isamazing.
I really like what they'redoing.
I think the integration of LLMswith robots would be very
interesting to see, you know.
You're kind of giving thegeneral purpose abilities to a
robot.
I don't think it's easy at all,but, I want to see how

(01:17:08):
repeatable and reliable thoseare.

Eric (01:17:10):
That would be very interesting to

Rishab (01:17:14):
I think, personally what helped me most is, I think,
taking time out for myself.
I think that's very important.

Eric (01:17:20):
important.

Rishab (01:17:20):
What I do, I got addicted to chess.
I'm not great at it.
I'm frustrated when I play it.
But I got addicted to chess.
Enjoy the frustration.
Enjoy the frustration.
It's very interesting.
I didn't imagine I'd be freakingplaying chess, like, you know,
every single waking moment whenI'm not doing work.

Eric (01:17:35):
chess a lot.

Rishab (01:17:36):
And, um, yeah, I think, for me, I was also trying to
sustain a healthier lifestyle,like, going to the gym and runs.
partial success.

Eric (01:17:45):
actually slipped down a lot since I saw you.

Rishab (01:17:47):
Bro, I slimmed down to almost 20 kgs minus and then I
gained back again.
bad.
This is a bad case.
I was, I would say slimmer thanyou.
you missed it.
That was last year.

Eric (01:17:57):
I'll catch it again

Rishab (01:17:58):
So anyway, so the thing is like going to the gym having
like some personal success Ithink one of the things I
learned is that if you arehaving like, you know Rejections
and failures everywhere back tothat question about rejections
and failures.
You need to have some meaningpersonal success, right?
So let's say you go to the gymand the things you can control
you go and do your normal weightset Okay, wow, I achieved
something today.
I think that can happen And thatcan transform your business as

(01:18:21):
well because then you're fromthat spiral of going into
negativity.
You go like, okay, not so badMaybe you get the neutrality may
not be positive, but you getneutrality then you look at
things more calmly and you canrespond better

Eric (01:18:33):
Yeah, I think that's the thing about, like, early stage
fondness, which is why I alsoreally appreciate you coming on.

Rishab (01:18:40):
I think it's highs and lows.
It's like when you look at itobjectively, you sometimes
realize that some of my friendswho remind me that look, if you
go out in the workforce rightnow, you have gone through so
many things, you have donehiring before you have done,
project management, you havebuilt teams, you have learned
the technicalities of you'vedone technical sales.
So there's so many things Ilearned.
one of the things, especiallyfor undergrad founders who came

(01:19:02):
out straight out of universityis that you do not actually
realize your net worth or interms of your value.
I think there's a lot of valuebeing created and someone will
see the value.
And so, you know, for ussometimes to step back and look
at our own value generation,what we have done is very
important.
What's the decision makingprocess that helped you?

(01:19:36):
What do you want to achieve?
Like, let's say in an earlierphase, right?
Why are we doing this?
We are doing this because wewant to demonstrate enough to
get enough resources to buildthe next stage.
So that's a very cleardifference.
If you are trying at that stageto try to build the actual
thing, you cannot, then youoptimize for that.
So for me, it's a very logicaldecision making process when it
comes to hiring and everything.
It's like, why did I hire thisperson?

(01:19:58):
What is the value I wanted fromthis?
Is it?
Taking away time that I have tospend.
If it's not happening, then he'snot serving his purpose of being
hired.

Eric (01:20:04):
Any advice you'd offer to aspiring founders who want to
innovate in the robotics space?

Rishab (01:20:09):
open your horizons a little bit, robotics can have
very high grade value outside ofSingapore because the markets
are bigger and the impact ismuch larger.
Singapore is a test bed marketat best, so, travel a little
bit.
For robotics, don't stay inSingapore alone.
you can use Singapore to getthings started, but before you
even get things started, youshould go and understand some of
the problems worth solvingoutside because that's the real

(01:20:31):
market.

Eric (01:20:31):
I think, one is that,

Rishab (01:20:35):
one is that, I was a very, what do you call it?
Non confrontational person.
Not usually get intoconfrontation.
But I think for me, the learningis that I need to stand my
ground sometimes.
So I think standing your groundis something, whether it's with
suppliers, with internal team,sometimes.
So it's a confidence that youhave to build up, including of
upsetting people, because youcannot be, pleasing everyone.

(01:20:56):
So building that, confidence orconviction, like, okay, this one
I really have to step in andtake it or leave it like that.
And then you're the boss, so youreally will implement it.
So that conviction, took a whilebecause that was kind of needed
in order to make certain thingshappen successfully in time.
But you also don't want to gooverboard in that direction,

(01:21:17):
right?
Then you become like someonewhere you are.
close off to the years ofeverything else.
So I think this conviction is,it's a tricky one.
there's no good answer to this,but I would say that it's like,
when do you know that you've gotto ignore the whole world and
just go with your gut?
it's a tricky one.
And for me, I was never doingthat because I told you I'm very
logical, right?
It's always taking inputs andvery logic driven, but, learning

(01:21:37):
to trust yourself and knowingwhen to step in.
I think that's a transformation.
It's a very difficult one.
Still.
I have the tendency to not trustmy own gut, I think I am
improving, and I think that's agreat transformation for me.
Very difficult one for me.

Eric (01:21:53):
What's the last reflection question what's the favourite
part of your job?

Rishab (01:21:56):
I think my favorite part of my job, on a lighter note, is
that actually, it's a realfavorite.
Is that I don't usually have toset up my alarm clock.
I tend to shift all my meetingsto second half of the day.

Eric (01:22:07):
You work better at night,

Rishab (01:22:08):
right?
I work better at

Eric (01:22:10):
You're always up at night.

Rishab (01:22:11):
So I think for me, that helps because it's like a normal
9 to 5 job, waking up and toreach office at 9 a.
m.
will kill me.
my productivity cycle is betterat night.
my team may have a differentschedule because they are still
in a nine to five, but for mepersonally You know, it makes it
very well suited for the roleI'm doing that I usually Can

(01:22:32):
sleep in the morning where I'mactually doing most of the work
at night and everything I thinkthat helps me because most of my
work is also international.
So, and it fits just nice intoMy body's preference.
So I think what I like about thejob is really that you know it's
like I'm just out of university.
This is my real world learning.

(01:22:52):
This is my real university.
I think personally It's justdeep diving into every single
crap that you can get, you know,from the business.
And you learn how to overcome,make decisions to solve
problems, one problem afteranother.
I think that's what I would say,like, I aspire to be as a CEO.
Right?
Yeah.
That's really exciting.

Eric (01:23:10):
there's this book called The Culture Map by

Rishab (01:23:16):
there's this book called The culture Map by Eric Mayer.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
I'm reading this book calledStart With a y, Simon Sinek.
Yeah, Simon Sinek.
then there's another book,there's a FBN negotiators book.

Eric (01:23:27):
Never split the difference.

Rishab (01:23:28):
Never Split a Difference.
I think these are some of thereally good ones.

Eric (01:23:30):
what's the film or show you enjoy?

Rishab (01:23:33):
The Founder, the McDonald's Founder movie.
I think that's really nice.
I love it.
I like those movies where it'slike, the sports movies, right?
Where they run dog and then theygo and struggle against the odds
to go and win.
I like those kind.
a completely different genre.
I love, You know, those, WhiteHouse, the series, like,
Designated Survivor, TheDiplomat, this kind, because, I

(01:23:54):
just like that kind of, problemsolving.
Political shows.

Eric (01:23:56):
Any podcast you listen to?

Rishab (01:23:58):
Yeah, the Economics Explained.
It's something I listen to everysingle day.
I think I love it.
I also have a subscription withThe Economist.
Some of them is more businessrelated, but some of it is like,
The Drum Tower is one of theseries from The Economist, which
is about the history of Chinaand events happening in China.
Very interesting for me becauseas a non Chinese, you know, kind
of gives me some of the insightsinto the history of China.

Eric (01:24:20):
for me.

Rishab (01:24:23):
than me?
So what was your

Eric (01:24:29):
episode, so

Rishab (01:24:31):
Favourite meal?
So, I know this changes fromseason to season, right?
But, right now my favourite mealhas been, There's this Indian
restaurant called Kharoos at,Bukit Timah.
So, for me, their set meal is,like, very satisfying.
before that I was eating saladevery day, so, you know, it's,
it was a bit of a shift,

Eric (01:24:46):
I don't think that was your favourite meal,

Rishab (01:24:48):
is it?
So, but

Eric (01:24:49):
every day.

Rishab (01:24:49):
interestingly, I've gotten a bit of a disdain for
pizzas recently because I wentto Rome, and I was surprised I
don't like Italian pizzas inItaly.
Because they're too bland.
Like, seriously, they need toput spices, man.
I can't.
I was crying.
Chili oil!

Eric (01:25:01):
spices, man.

Rishab (01:25:02):
They don't, it's just not the same thing, man.
It's not the same thing.
You need our, pepper, you needour chili pepper and everything.
If not, it's not

Eric (01:25:10):
pepper, you need our chili pepper and everything.
But it's not nice.
Um, I don't actually

Rishab (01:25:19):
I'm just guessing at this point.
I would say maybe my, maybe myoutward projection would be
like, everything is undercontrol and everything is going
all right.
But internally, you know, man,it's a freaking crisis.
So I think that's something thatmay get wrong about me.
Everybody thinks like, Oh,everything looking good, but
that's effort to make it lookgood.

Eric (01:25:38):
Sounds like what you have to do as a tech leader.
So if you weren't runningbusinesses, what kind of job do
you see yourself in?

Rishab (01:25:43):
I'll be running a business, I'll be running my
dad's business, so yeah.

Eric (01:25:46):
my dad's business.
Okay.
Give me a snapshot of anordinary moment that brings you
joy.

Rishab (01:25:52):
eating carrots was fun, that's a thing that I like, um,
ordinary

Eric (01:25:56):
there!

Rishab (01:25:56):
I think what gives me joy is like, When you wake up
and then you check the weightright, it actually dropped from
the previous day.

Eric (01:26:03):
think,

Rishab (01:26:04):
That will give me joy.
I think, lately, I think to bevery frank is a very good
question to ask.
In fact, this might be the mostdifficult question because I
think going through the startup,phase right, the one thing I did
notice, especially since I'vebeen doing since university is
that, I have been veryengrossed, you know, in the
startup.
I think taking a step back outof it, that's, It's almost

(01:26:24):
confusing.
So, it, it's something thatlike, you know, those kind of
like joy moments, like whenyou're free and easy, right?
Don't really have a headache tomanage.
They do happen, but I don'trecognize them.
So that's the thing that hashappened.
That's why when you ask me, Ican't even remember.
I'm pretty sure it happens,right, on a day

Eric (01:26:42):
day, maybe.

Rishab (01:26:43):
But the truth is that it's quite rigorous.
You wake up, you know, you areon to getting all the things
done for the day, and the nextday, and the next day.
So, I think going to the facewhen you're not firefighting
anymore is very important.
And, you know, a lot of peoplesay that you should, you know,
start with everything, but thereality is that as a founder,

(01:27:06):
you are in the heat of themoment.
You cannot just quit in the heatof the moment to take like a two
week break.
It doesn't happen.
But, you need to get out of thatphase where you can like, you
know, last time, maybe you useyour firefighting with like
maybe a little, you know, cup ofwater, but you need to start
having a fire engines and otherteams around you to handle
things.
I think once you get there, youwill have the peace of mind to

(01:27:28):
move things, you know, with moretime for yourself.
Can take a holiday, can go andlike, spend more time with your
friends.
I think my time with my friendshas decreased a lot, um, because
there's just absolutely no time.
Um, usually I catch up overlunch or meals with them, but
it's always rush.
So it's not even fun anymore.
Like it's almost like a chore.
That's the truth.
So for a friend who is in adifferent mental state, it's

(01:27:50):
like, oh yeah, it's nice tocatch up.
But to me, you may even be like,oh my God, I need to meet this
person Sometimes you just wantto eat lunch alone.
That's the truth of it.
So, I don't know, it's a verydifficult question, how do you
find joy?
Um, I think I need, what wouldreally give me joy is like, I
can get out of this firefightingphase to a phase where I can,
ah, right.
I think I'm grateful for my dad.

(01:28:15):
I think, um, I think, you know,I'll be very honest with you, if
my dad didn't chip in with fundsat the early stages and
unwavering support, Hyperbolicwouldn't be able to move
through.
I think, the local ecosystem isnot strong enough without self
funding to move things at anearly stage.

Eric (01:28:30):
at an early

Rishab (01:28:33):
think, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I think that's a good platform.
I can, you can share my email.
I think that's more than happyto do so.
It's rishabh at hypbotics.
tech.
That's literally the email.
but yeah, I think, you can emailme.
I don't really respond onInstagram and Facebook because I
am not so active there.
But these two are the mostimportant ones.

(01:28:54):
And yeah, if you need specificadvice on if you're trying to do
a startup, I'm more than happyto, hop on a call to share some
of my insights and see if I canhelp you of any help.
I'm more than happy to do sowhile I can, right?

Eric (01:29:07):
Well, likewise.
so much,

Rishab (01:29:12):
Oh, likewise.
Thank you so much, Eric.
Appreciate it, man.
Thanks so much for listening tothe soil and scale podcast.
I'm your host, Eric tine.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Don't forget to subscribe.
Like leave a comment follow itin your favorite podcasting app
leave a review and share it withyour friends.
You can also join our WhatsAppgroup where you can provide me a

(01:29:33):
feedback and chat with likeminded individuals.
Or subscribe to my sub stack,where I post about business and
entrepreneurship.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode.
And see you on our next one.

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