May 31, 2024 • 34 mins
What if a forgotten genius of Brazilian art was right under our noses all along? Join us for an inspiring exploration of Francisco 'Chico' da Silva's life and work, as Nicholas Robinson, a contemporary art expert, guides us through Chico's remarkable journey. From his early artistic influences rooted in the myths and legends of Amazonian visual culture to his global acclaim at the 1966 Venice Biennale, we trace the intricate tapestry of his career and the factors behind his resurgence in today's art world.
Discover the global revival of Chico's work, underscored by exhibitions in New York, Geneva, Paris, and Shanghai and which have catapulted Chico's international visibility to exciting and impressive levels. We delve into the profound impact of nature on his art and its striking relevance in contemporary artistic discourse. Chico’s acquisition by and inclusion in prestigious collections at the Tate, Guggenheim, and Pompidou is cementing his legacy, illustrating the art world’s growing appreciation for his previously overlooked or forgotten talent.
In our final segment, we dissect the market dynamics surrounding Chico's artwork. Nicholas offers valuable insights into how timing, market trends, and the various typologies of his work influence their desirability and market value. Hear about the challenges that must be faced and overcome in acquiring these rare treasures and the careful considerations collectors must make to navigate this increasingly competitive market. Whether you're a seasoned collector or a curious enthusiast, this episode promises to equip you with a deeper understanding of Chico da Silva's enduring artistic legacy.
Episode Image: Chico da Silva, Untitled (Fish), 1969, Gouache on canvas, 62 x 72cm (DETAIL) ©️ Chico da Silva / The Estate of Chico da Silva
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeppe Curth (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic
Art Partners.
In today's episode we will talkabout the work and the career
of Chico da Silva, a Brazilianartist largely forgotten, who is
now enjoying a significantrenaissance in his reputation.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:17):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling here at Christie's 400million dollars is the bid and
the piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney, but can you get involved
and become a part of theexclusive club yourself, and how
(00:40):
do you get started whileavoiding buying the wrong things
?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
(01:02):
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:23):
Hi Nick welcome, hello, jeppe thank you, Nicholas
Robertson, a contemporary artexpert with more than 25 years
of experience.
Nick has worked in London andwas in New York for 20 years,
and more recently in Copenhagen.
He has worked in the auctionindustry and was a gallerist in
Manhattan for many years.
Worked in the auction industryand was a gallerist in Manhattan
(01:46):
for many years.
For the last decade, he hasfocused on heavily
resource-based acquisitions forhis family portfolio, for
private high net worth clients,family offices and fine art
investment funds.
So we're going to talk aboutChico de Silva, also just called
Chico, I guess Francisco.
Nicholas Robinson (02:04):
Chico de Silva.
Yeah, I justico, I guess, uh,today Francisco, Francisco Chico
de Silva.
Jeppe Curth (02:06):
Yeah, just pronounce it as Chico, is that
okay?
Nicholas Robinson (02:08):
that's his how he's commonly known.
Yes, good.
Jeppe Curth (02:12):
So for the last, you can say for the last 12
months, it's been a quite crazyride.
Uh, following him and just totry to understand, could we
maybe just take a step back andask ourselves the question who
is chico de silva?
Nicholas Robinson (02:28):
yeah well, chico de silva was a brazilian
artist who came to prominence inthe 1960s, the son of a
peruvian indian and brazilianwoman Born.
There are some doubts as to hisbirth date, but the common
(02:50):
consensus is around 1910.
And he died in 1985, largely inobscurity and probably
destitution.
So his heyday, if you like, wasin in the 1960s, somewhat in
the 1970s, um, but he wasworking uh record show.
(03:11):
He was working as early as the1940s makes sense.
Jeppe Curth (03:15):
That's who he is and he's no longer with us, but
it also came to our attentionlike 12 months ago, right why?
Why haven't you heard so muchabout him before?
Nicholas Robinson (03:24):
um, it's difficult to say.
I mean, I think that the artworld, the art market, is always
on the lookout for interestingthings from history that have
been overlooked for whateverreason.
And you know, there are certainattitudes in the art world now
(03:47):
that embrace a much wider church, a much broader church of
practices also from differentethnicities, geographical areas
that maybe have not previouslybeen included in the traditional
canon of art history.
So there's appeal to discovernew things, and there's appeal
(04:11):
to discover new things thatalready have some kind of
compelling story attached tothem, but of course they also
have to be of a, you know, theyhave to be qualitatively
interesting.
They have to, they have to begood art, interesting art,
original, unique art, um, thatstands up by itself.
(04:33):
And then, of course, if youhave these other narratives and
compelling information attachedto these artists, then, you know
, then there starts to be abigger picture that becomes
interesting.
Jeppe Curth (04:46):
Thanks, nick.
So the last 12 months have beenreally good for Chico.
I guess we could say quite bymuseums had a lot of good
exhibition.
But could we again take a stepback and try to describe his
works and these Amazon creatures?
Nicholas Robinson (05:07):
try to describe his works and these
amazon creatures.
Um, his work focuses on thesort of myths and legends of um
amazonian culture.
So we see a lot of fictitious,fantastical creatures related to
life in the amazon, life in therainforest, we see birds, we
see fish, we see the food chainin nature.
These works were often executedon somewhat cheap materials,
(05:35):
but he was introduced to gouacheand tempera by a Swiss artist
who was traveling in Brazil, bya Swiss artist who was traveling
in Brazil, and this is anothersort of side note which maybe is
a little interesting to note.
But when he was discovered bythis Swiss gentleman, chablot
(05:57):
was his name Chablot championedhis work and assisted Chico in
getting into some exhibition,some galleries in Brazil, some
opportunities to exhibit hiswork in the West, and this
culminated in Chico representingBrazil in the 1966 Venice
(06:18):
Biennale, for which he was givena special mention, a special
commendation, so in aninternational context, and I
guess we joke about Biennalecalling it the Olympics of the
art world, but he garneredgenuine international attention
in this forum in 1966.
(06:39):
So anyway, we have this veryexotic um uh language of
creatures, we have the worksexecuted in this sort of
indigenous, sort of naive style,but we have the work executed
in this very sort of meticulous,traditionally Western medium.
(07:01):
Uh, gouache and tempera, um, uh, yeah.
Jeppe Curth (07:06):
Okay, so they're deeply rooted in amazon they are
.
Nicholas Robinson (07:09):
I mean, they look very exotic.
They look like a fantasticarray of creatures chasing and
eating other creatures okay, andand does the painting tell us a
story?
well, I mean, you said somethingabout the food chain carefully,
(07:40):
because I also look at thiskind of culture through the lens
of my own experience.
And when Chablot was travelingin Brazil and when he was
bringing Chico to prominence, hewas describing him as this sort
of local Indian, this naivepainter, and I think that we
(08:03):
can't ignore the fact thatthere's a certain sort of
colonialism, uh, at play here,um, with the championing of this
works, especially in the 1960s,especially in the way it was
talked about and presented towestern audiences.
And when we look at it, look atit today, you know we, we look
at it as almost a new categoryof art being brought into the
(08:27):
mainstream art market.
And so, you know, we look at itwith the eyes that are
influenced by the things thatwe've grown up seeing, the
things that we're most familiarwith in museums and galleries.
But but you know, we have to,we have to, we have to try and I
don't know, be careful of thismore to try and I don't know be
careful of this more patronizingaspect, I suppose.
Jeppe Curth (08:49):
Okay, so, the works are, I guess, deeply rooted in
Chico's own visual culture.
Of course, I suppose it's anaesthetic we are a bit
unfamiliar with.
Also, when we look at the works, what are we most looking for?
Are there any or some specificfeatures that his best works
(09:13):
have in common, and is this whatthe market's recognizing?
Nicholas Robinson (09:18):
Yes, there are some recurring motifs.
We see lots of birds, fantasticbirds with very sharp beaks, um
, very uh, aggressive talons, um, often chasing after smaller
birds.
Or fish.
Um, we see, we see a lot offish um motifs large fish with
(09:44):
wide open mouths with very sharpteeth, most often chasing
consuming other fish, insects,et cetera, et cetera.
These depictions are alwaysstylized and, I think, not of
any specific kind of fish, sothey're not literal.
Um.
And then we see more completelymade up creatures, um, where we
(10:09):
see fantastical sort of dragonsand lizards and these kinds of
things.
But often the the way theseanimals are rendered, the kinds
of decorative patterns we see ontheir bodies, the way the open
mouth and the teeth are depictedand the sort of wide-eyed look
that they have.
These often from one paintingto another.
(10:31):
These creatures all have thesekinds of features in common, and
Chico's work went throughvarious stages.
I mean his works that areperhaps now becoming a little
more prized are works that wereexecuted in gouache on paper
throughout the 1960s and mostoften mounted on wood, and these
(10:53):
have a certain kind ofpictorial space.
There's a sort of a swirling,stippled painterly patterns
around the figures.
There's quite a lot ofbreathing room around the
figures themselves.
Often they're sort ofsurrounding a tree where they're
trying to eat things from thetree or eat each other, and this
(11:14):
is a sort of a category of workthat's emerging as something
that people are really lookingto.
And then later in the 1960s andthroughout the 1970s, the
paintings became much morecolourful, painted on canvas
instead of paper, and often muchmore vibrant colours, much
(11:39):
brighter, solid colouredbackgrounds.
Jeppe Curth (11:41):
So they have a slightly different
characteristic stylistically asas they evolved so over the last
(12:02):
12 months or so, or maybe goingback a bit farther than that,
we have been buying quite asignificant number of works by
Chico, learning as we go to someextent.
How do you advise someone aboutChico's works, especially since
many will never have seensomething like this before?
Nicholas Robinson (12:24):
Well, I mean, we buy them.
We buy them because we likethem, we respond very strongly
to them and we see the innatequality in them, I think.
But I think it would bedisingenuous to say that we, you
know, we we buy them justbecause we love them.
There's lots of things in theworld that look great, that have
interesting properties, thatone could spend money on, um,
(12:47):
but, you course, when you havean artist, um who's you know,
(13:07):
you, you could say that Chico isa, is a historic artist who's
been rediscovered.
But essentially, the market forChico that we have now is, is a
, is a new market.
For all intents and purposes,it's one that did not exist
before.
His work, you know, is nowregularly trading at auction and
that's because his work hasgained some traction, it's
(13:29):
gained a following, and it'sonly gained a following because
there are a number of prominentgalleries that have now been
taking up the mantle to pushChico's work into a mainstream
consciousness.
So we have David Kordansky, who, of course, is a very reputable
gallery, based primarily in LosAngeles but has a gallery in
(13:50):
New York.
The first major Chico show, ifyou like, in a commercial sense,
was in his gallery in New York.
He had previously taken one ortwo paintings to the art fairs
in the summer autumn, uh, in theautumn of 2023.
Um, and then the galleryexhibition was the the first
sort of major thing that startedto propel attention to a new
(14:12):
level.
Um, further to that, uh, therehave been a few isolated uh
paintings come up at auction,some of which have done quite
well, some of which have alittle bit fallen between the
cracks just because the appetiteis not so evolved or developed
yet for his work.
Subsequently, there's been anexhibition by a Belgian dealer
(14:39):
who had a solo booth of Chico'swork that was very well
presented with works of veryhigh quality, at Art Genève in
Geneva.
And then, laterally, there'sbeen an exhibition at Massimo Di
Carlo, who has shown Chico'sworks in his Paris space, and
the last, most recent exhibitionis with a gallery called Bank,
(15:04):
which is a very nice Baselexhibiting gallery based in
Shanghai, and they've also donea Chico de Silva exhibition.
So we look at this cross-sectionof exhibiting galleries and we
see a deep interest and a deepappetite across multiple major
(15:25):
markets.
In the Americas, with Kordanskyhe has a high profile and a big
reach.
Massimo Di Carlo in Europe is abig, big gallery with a
powerful brand, if you will, anda gravitas to also extend the
reach and build a market.
And then you know the galleryin Shanghai is less noted and
(15:49):
less established than those twothat I've mentioned.
Um, but also a good, a goodplace and something that builds
credibility, builds awareness,and presumably they also have a
collecting reach in Asia.
So when you see this depth ofcollecting across these markets,
plus a burgeoning awarenesseven in Sao Paulo, which is the
(16:14):
sort of center of the Chicomarket in Brazil, then you can
say that you know, it's not justa small, isolated pocket of
interest, it's a deep, wideinterest globally.
Jeppe Curth (16:24):
Okay, but you can also easily say that there's no
doubt that Chico have a quiteunique position they've had for
many years in Brazilian arthistory.
So I mean, it's also quiteinteresting that from 12 months
ago there was no exhibition in aglobal scale of Chico, and now
(16:47):
I guess he is all over the place, or many places anyway.
Do you see his legacy likeinfluence the global
contemporary artists in themarket we have right now?
Nicholas Robinson (17:01):
I mean I think it's a bit too soon to say
I mean, you know we can't.
There's information, visualinformation, everywhere these
days and, and I suppose you know, things don't get made in a
vacuum and the more things thatartists see and absorb, the more
likely they are to somehowrecycle those things,
consciously or unconsciously.
(17:21):
I mean, I don't see, you know,chico, like work sort of
populating the, the, the market.
But we've seen in the recentpast figurative work that's
shown very lush, exoticlandscape.
Um, obviously, you know there'sa there's a strong interest in
(17:41):
in nature, what with the climateproblems that we've had and
that we continue to have andthat somehow remain unaddressed.
I mean, I think obviously naturehas always been a big
inspiration for artists, goingback, well, going back hundreds
of years.
You know we see the naturalsublime in Romanticism, in
(18:05):
German art and British art,landscape art in the 18th and
19th centuries.
You know we see strong feelingsof nature, the power of nature,
even in abstract expressionistpainters.
I mean, I think it's alwaysbeen there.
So yeah, I mean Chico's work isa very distinctive body of work
(18:27):
that was consistent over 20, 30years and there's a number of
paintings obviously that are outthere, that are now finding
their way, being sort ofrecycled into the market.
Obviously, when an artist is uhrediscovered and and
experiences a building marketwhere, where the prices are you
(18:51):
know vastly more than they wereonly a relatively short time ago
, then then you have sellers whoare kind of keen to take their
opportunity, if you like, to getmoney that previously was
impossible for them to thinkthat they could get.
Jeppe Curth (19:06):
Well, you said that he had been exhibited in the
Venice Biennale in 1966, so itwas almost 60 years ago.
Yes, is he represented by other?
Nicholas Robinson (19:15):
institutions.
Yes, I mean his work is in anumber of very prominent museums
.
There was a very interestingsurvey exhibition last year in
the Pinacoteca in Sao Paulo, andimportant works by Chico have
been acquired by the Tate, bythe Guggenheim and the Pompidou.
(19:39):
And just last month thePompidou acquired two more
gouaches, and this again theseare of that 60s type that I
referred to earlier, gouache onpaper mounted on a wooden board.
So of course his works now arebeing quite hungrily absorbed
(20:01):
into these powerful Westerninstitutions, and that only
helps to substantiate a sense ofconfidence in in the work so in
(20:35):
november last year a newauction record for chico's work
was hammered at sotheby's in newyork on the 14th november,
actually for 330 000 new,000 newrecord.
Jeppe Curth (20:42):
Um, if we send in a broader context of buying,
collecting art, how do you thinkhow does a Chico's work stand
in terms of value, appreciationand potential in in in the
market right now?
Nicholas Robinson (20:56):
Well, I mean, I think that was a you know in
in many, in many markets and andthe art market is no exception
a you know in many markets andthe art market is no exception.
You know, timing is key andthis was a sort of a perfect
synergy of factors, includingthe contemporaneous Kordansky
show.
You know, kordansky is animportant gallery with a
(21:19):
fantastic roster of artists anda real track record in
identifying and building marketsfor interesting things.
And this particular paintingthat was sold for this price was
a painting that had beenexhibited at the Venice Biennale
.
So it was absolutely the mostsort of prestigious work, um, by
(21:40):
Chico that could have come tothe market at this time, um, and
it was, uh, in the samecollection, an important
collection in Chicago, um, andit had been in the same
collection since 1966.
Um, so you know, it was notonly was it the the best example
of Chico's work that could havebeen offered for sale, it was
(22:01):
also completely fresh to themarket and a and a very, maybe
unique opportunity to to acquirethis seminal example of Chico's
work.
So that's, that's one one thing.
Not only that, it was a verylarge painting and these large
paintings, obviously forpaintings very big, it's worth
more than if it's very small.
But these very large paintingsare relatively rare.
(22:25):
We see lots of works by Chicothat are 60, 70, 80, even 90
centimetres, maybe a little bitless in this sort of one metre
size, but lots of paintings thatare 60, 70 centimetres in size
and typically these galleriesthat I've mentioned are selling
(22:45):
these paintings for somewherearound 50, $60,000 euros.
Um, that's the, that's themarket price.
Um, when they have sold atauction they've been selling,
you know, anywhere from sort of30 to $70,000 to 70 000.
So you know a much bigger plusor minus range relative to this
(23:09):
quite strict pricing structurethat you know these galleries
independently collectively, Imean, I think independently have
determined, and I think youknow they're all sticking to
this, this price that kordanskyhas set, because you know the,
the, the key to building amarket is to consistently adhere
(23:30):
to a price um and to, to, to,you know, to ensure that they
don't go out into the, into theworld, unless that's the price
Um.
You know if, if, if, the worksare vetted carefully for
condition and authenticity then,I think you know they're good,
good things to buy.
I think it's possible to buythem for less, um, if you scour
(23:53):
auctions, especially auctions inBrazil.
But of course, then you, youknow you have to.
You have to deal with dealingwith dealing with a business in
Brazil.
You know authentication, who'sbeen responsible for that?
You know all of these kinds ofthings.
Are you able to check out thecondition?
Probably not.
It's a little bit more of aleap of faith.
(24:14):
Say, the market premium pricefrom Kordansky or Massimo
Toccarolo, for instance.
You know, you, you presumablybuying the safety of all of
those things already havinghaving been done for you, um
also because we have seen somefake works out there.
Yeah, we've seen some fake works.
(24:35):
Um, yeah, and you know there'sa slightly different set of
criteria.
I suppose that we apply to theterm fakes, at least in this
particular context.
There are some overt forgerieswhere people are attempting to
copy a Chico type work or makesomething ostensibly in his
(24:58):
style that they then try andpass off as an authentic Chico
de Silva painting.
But there are also other workssort of related to Chico and his
production, made in the regionat the time where there was a
kind of a different attitudetowards fakes.
Obviously, you know, we're notproposing that similar or
(25:21):
related works are the same orequivalent to Chico's paintings,
but, um, just to sort of diveinto the nuance of this question
, um, when Chico was in his pompin the late sixties and
seventies, um, he was um,successful, very commercially
successful, selling paintings,uh, selling paintings to, you
(25:43):
know, to the collecting classesof Brazil.
And he had a studio, aproduction facility that was
making paintings.
There's the exhibition at thePinacoteca in Sao Paulo
addressed this, they call it thePirambu School and there were,
I think, four or five artiststhat that constituted the
(26:04):
members of his studio and eachof them made different
contributions to the evolutionof Chico Starr, some of them
painted at his direction, someof them innovated additions to
the, to the style, to therepertoire of motifs that were
being painted, um, and so nowit's able to, you're able to,
(26:30):
sort of pass some works, uh,from others as to whose hand is
involved in making them.
Ultimately, chico's signaturewas applied to these paintings,
um, because they were paintingsmade in his studio.
But this is simply akin to oldmaster studio guild systems,
whereby you would have a masterwho was responsible for
producing the painting and was,you know, ultimately the author
(26:52):
of the painting, but where youmight have, let's say, rembrandt
, responsible for painting theface, the eyes, the hands, the
most expressive components of apainting.
You would have other journeymanpainters that specialized in
different elements of painting.
You would have somebody whowould be a specialist in
painting drapery of the clothesor the food and the tablecloth,
(27:18):
or the landscape or the physicalenvironment behind the people.
All of these, all of thesetasks were divided up in a
division of labor according todifferent specializations, and
you know, it's of course notquite the same in Chico's studio
, but there are some parallelsto this.
And Chico and his colleagues,they also celebrated the
(27:41):
communal nature of making thesepaintings.
So what to them was a certainkind of cooperative
collaboration, is sort ofcollegial um enthusiasm with
which they were making thesepaintings.
Um, you know, in in theseventies, for instance, um
Chablot made some unfortunatecomments which cast aspersions
(28:01):
on uh authenticity of Chico'swork, because he was, you know,
I don't know his, his motivesfor doing this, um, but but but
his comments at least causedChico great deal of despair and
uh were significant catalyst foran already deteriorating mental
and emotional state and aserious dependency on alcohol.
(28:21):
So you know, when we look atChico's paintings and we
question their authenticity,there are certain things you
have to bear in mind.
There are certain elements ofthe works you need to
interrogate.
But if you do this, you know,mindful of these points that
I've made, then you know you canarrive at.
You know, mindful of thesepoints that I've made, then you
(28:42):
know you can arrive at, at, atyou know the right conclusion,
um, but I think if you areconscious of those things and
you take care of making surethose criteria are properly
satisfied, then you know buyingwork, um is, is a, is a sound
thing.
I mean, certainly the museumrepresentation is something
(29:04):
that's continuing and is, youknow, looking very strong and
probably there'll be someinstitutional exhibitions that
we can look forward to,hopefully in interesting Western
institutions that help tocement Chico's place and his
reputation amongst these sort ofgreat, you know, artists of the
(29:26):
20th century.
The interesting thing about hiswork, I think you know, I mean
his work was highly praised byAndre Malraux in the 1960s.
That's a sort of interestingpoint to make.
That's a sort of interestingpoint to make.
You know, there's alwaysartists who are maybe a little
bit bit of an outlier.
(29:47):
I mean the prevailing trends inthe 1960s.
You can look at pop art.
You can look at minimalism art.
You can look at the infancy ofconceptual art, post-minimal
conceptual art.
You know, chico does not fitinto any of those boxes.
His work is much more in thisexpressive trajectory.
Um, you know, you can look atartists in the early 20th
(30:09):
century like henry russo, whowas known as a le douanier or
the customs officer.
He was a self-taught artist whomade these very exotic scenes
and his work was was adored bythe avant-garde.
Picasso thought his work wasspectacular, the surrealists
thought his work was spectacularand he was a big inspiration to
them.
And you know so Chico is anartist who plows this very
(30:32):
singular furrow for himself, isan artist who, because of these
unique qualities, is able toappeal in a very broad way.
Jeppe Curth (30:41):
Thanks, nick.
Nick, some interesting pointsof reference.
Maybe also people listeninghere would be interesting to
dive a bit more into his works.
Um, first thing, we maybe seeif it's something they like to
look at.
Uh, these creatures, amazoncreatures, um, but what, what?
(31:01):
What can you do?
If you want a deep dive intothe Chico works, what would you
recommend?
Nicholas Robinson (31:07):
Well, I mean, I think that, like most people,
when you're looking to try andlearn something new, you look
online and you search and yousee what comes up.
And I think that you know, ifyou're interested in seeing a
number of examples of the workand then reading some contextual
(31:29):
information about it, then lookat Kordansky's site, look at
Massimo Di Carlo's site and youcan read the sort of potted
history that these gallerieshave put together.
There's a couple of reallygreat galleries in Brazil that
have got interesting texts aboutthe artists.
If you look at there's agallery called Galatea, there's
(31:52):
a gallery called Gomide.
All of these galleries have gotinformation that you can absorb
if you wish to see, see some Um, and then you know you'll find
you'll find information relatedto his institutional shows, the
Pinacoteca.
You know you can search onlinein the museums I've mentioned
Pompidou, tate, guggenheim,they'll all.
(32:14):
They'll all record theacquisitions and have probably
some information about about thework and have probably some
information about the work.
If you're interested in buyingwork, then you can look on Artsy
, which is the leading onlinemarketplace for art, for modern,
contemporary art, and you'llsee a number of examples there.
You can inquire after them,you'll find.
(32:39):
Maybe there's not so muchavailable and you'll find that
they're typically 50, 60,000bucks.
Um, you know, I mean we, we, wecarry an inventory of works.
If, if you're interested in inin finding more out about what
we have, then you're welcome.
Welcome to reach out to us too,right?
Jeppe Curth (32:55):
Yeah, of course.
And are we?
Are we finished buying Chicoworks?
Nicholas Robinson (32:58):
um, probably not.
I, I think that you know, um, Imean, we're, we're, we're art
dealers, of course.
So you know, we, we always haveto be opportunistic a little
about our acquisition price.
Um, it's getting much harder tofind them.
The ones that are coming ourway are fewer and farther
(33:19):
between and typically moreexpensive.
But I think you know, I mean,all being well, we'll, we'll
continue to buy, to buy Chicoworks, and we'll continue to
encourage people to lookseriously at them as as a really
interesting thing to acquirethank you for the conversation,
(33:50):
nick, and thank you for lettingus into the world of chico.
Yeah, it's an interesting world.
You should um dive into it, um,although you should avoid the
sharp teeth of the fish makesense.
Jeppe Curth (34:05):
Well, if you have anything, any question, if you
want to buy or sell some arts,yours, welcome to contact me at
jeppe at nordic art partnerscom,and thank you for this time.
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic
Art Partners.
In today's episode we will talkabout the work and the career
of Chico da Silva, a Brazilianartist largely forgotten, who is
now enjoying a significantrenaissance in his reputation.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:17):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling here at Christie's 400million dollars is the bid and
the piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney, but can you get involved
and become a part of theexclusive club yourself, and how
(00:40):
do you get started whileavoiding buying the wrong things
?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
(01:02):
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:23):
Hi Nick welcome, hello, jeppe thank you, Nicholas
Robertson, a contemporary artexpert with more than 25 years
of experience.
Nick has worked in London andwas in New York for 20 years,
and more recently in Copenhagen.
He has worked in the auctionindustry and was a gallerist in
Manhattan for many years.
Worked in the auction industryand was a gallerist in Manhattan
(01:46):
for many years.
For the last decade, he hasfocused on heavily
resource-based acquisitions forhis family portfolio, for
private high net worth clients,family offices and fine art
investment funds.
So we're going to talk aboutChico de Silva, also just called
Chico, I guess Francisco.
Nicholas Robinson (02:04):
Chico de Silva.
Yeah, I justico, I guess, uh,today Francisco, Francisco Chico
de Silva.
Jeppe Curth (02:06):
Yeah, just pronounce it as Chico, is that
okay?
Nicholas Robinson (02:08):
that's his how he's commonly known.
Yes, good.
Jeppe Curth (02:12):
So for the last, you can say for the last 12
months, it's been a quite crazyride.
Uh, following him and just totry to understand, could we
maybe just take a step back andask ourselves the question who
is chico de silva?
Nicholas Robinson (02:28):
yeah well, chico de silva was a brazilian
artist who came to prominence inthe 1960s, the son of a
peruvian indian and brazilianwoman Born.
There are some doubts as to hisbirth date, but the common
(02:50):
consensus is around 1910.
And he died in 1985, largely inobscurity and probably
destitution.
So his heyday, if you like, wasin in the 1960s, somewhat in
the 1970s, um, but he wasworking uh record show.
(03:11):
He was working as early as the1940s makes sense.
Jeppe Curth (03:15):
That's who he is and he's no longer with us, but
it also came to our attentionlike 12 months ago, right why?
Why haven't you heard so muchabout him before?
Nicholas Robinson (03:24):
um, it's difficult to say.
I mean, I think that the artworld, the art market, is always
on the lookout for interestingthings from history that have
been overlooked for whateverreason.
And you know, there are certainattitudes in the art world now
(03:47):
that embrace a much wider church, a much broader church of
practices also from differentethnicities, geographical areas
that maybe have not previouslybeen included in the traditional
canon of art history.
So there's appeal to discovernew things, and there's appeal
(04:11):
to discover new things thatalready have some kind of
compelling story attached tothem, but of course they also
have to be of a, you know, theyhave to be qualitatively
interesting.
They have to, they have to begood art, interesting art,
original, unique art, um, thatstands up by itself.
(04:33):
And then, of course, if youhave these other narratives and
compelling information attachedto these artists, then, you know
, then there starts to be abigger picture that becomes
interesting.
Jeppe Curth (04:46):
Thanks, nick.
So the last 12 months have beenreally good for Chico.
I guess we could say quite bymuseums had a lot of good
exhibition.
But could we again take a stepback and try to describe his
works and these Amazon creatures?
Nicholas Robinson (05:07):
try to describe his works and these
amazon creatures.
Um, his work focuses on thesort of myths and legends of um
amazonian culture.
So we see a lot of fictitious,fantastical creatures related to
life in the amazon, life in therainforest, we see birds, we
see fish, we see the food chainin nature.
These works were often executedon somewhat cheap materials,
(05:35):
but he was introduced to gouacheand tempera by a Swiss artist
who was traveling in Brazil, bya Swiss artist who was traveling
in Brazil, and this is anothersort of side note which maybe is
a little interesting to note.
But when he was discovered bythis Swiss gentleman, chablot
(05:57):
was his name Chablot championedhis work and assisted Chico in
getting into some exhibition,some galleries in Brazil, some
opportunities to exhibit hiswork in the West, and this
culminated in Chico representingBrazil in the 1966 Venice
(06:18):
Biennale, for which he was givena special mention, a special
commendation, so in aninternational context, and I
guess we joke about Biennalecalling it the Olympics of the
art world, but he garneredgenuine international attention
in this forum in 1966.
(06:39):
So anyway, we have this veryexotic um uh language of
creatures, we have the worksexecuted in this sort of
indigenous, sort of naive style,but we have the work executed
in this very sort of meticulous,traditionally Western medium.
(07:01):
Uh, gouache and tempera, um, uh, yeah.
Jeppe Curth (07:06):
Okay, so they're deeply rooted in amazon they are
.
Nicholas Robinson (07:09):
I mean, they look very exotic.
They look like a fantasticarray of creatures chasing and
eating other creatures okay, andand does the painting tell us a
story?
well, I mean, you said somethingabout the food chain carefully,
(07:40):
because I also look at thiskind of culture through the lens
of my own experience.
And when Chablot was travelingin Brazil and when he was
bringing Chico to prominence, hewas describing him as this sort
of local Indian, this naivepainter, and I think that we
(08:03):
can't ignore the fact thatthere's a certain sort of
colonialism, uh, at play here,um, with the championing of this
works, especially in the 1960s,especially in the way it was
talked about and presented towestern audiences.
And when we look at it, look atit today, you know we, we look
at it as almost a new categoryof art being brought into the
(08:27):
mainstream art market.
And so, you know, we look at itwith the eyes that are
influenced by the things thatwe've grown up seeing, the
things that we're most familiarwith in museums and galleries.
But but you know, we have to,we have to, we have to try and I
don't know, be careful of thismore to try and I don't know be
careful of this more patronizingaspect, I suppose.
Jeppe Curth (08:49):
Okay, so, the works are, I guess, deeply rooted in
Chico's own visual culture.
Of course, I suppose it's anaesthetic we are a bit
unfamiliar with.
Also, when we look at the works, what are we most looking for?
Are there any or some specificfeatures that his best works
(09:13):
have in common, and is this whatthe market's recognizing?
Nicholas Robinson (09:18):
Yes, there are some recurring motifs.
We see lots of birds, fantasticbirds with very sharp beaks, um
, very uh, aggressive talons, um, often chasing after smaller
birds.
Or fish.
Um, we see, we see a lot offish um motifs large fish with
(09:44):
wide open mouths with very sharpteeth, most often chasing
consuming other fish, insects,et cetera, et cetera.
These depictions are alwaysstylized and, I think, not of
any specific kind of fish, sothey're not literal.
Um.
And then we see more completelymade up creatures, um, where we
(10:09):
see fantastical sort of dragonsand lizards and these kinds of
things.
But often the the way theseanimals are rendered, the kinds
of decorative patterns we see ontheir bodies, the way the open
mouth and the teeth are depictedand the sort of wide-eyed look
that they have.
These often from one paintingto another.
(10:31):
These creatures all have thesekinds of features in common, and
Chico's work went throughvarious stages.
I mean his works that areperhaps now becoming a little
more prized are works that wereexecuted in gouache on paper
throughout the 1960s and mostoften mounted on wood, and these
(10:53):
have a certain kind ofpictorial space.
There's a sort of a swirling,stippled painterly patterns
around the figures.
There's quite a lot ofbreathing room around the
figures themselves.
Often they're sort ofsurrounding a tree where they're
trying to eat things from thetree or eat each other, and this
(11:14):
is a sort of a category of workthat's emerging as something
that people are really lookingto.
And then later in the 1960s andthroughout the 1970s, the
paintings became much morecolourful, painted on canvas
instead of paper, and often muchmore vibrant colours, much
(11:39):
brighter, solid colouredbackgrounds.
Jeppe Curth (11:41):
So they have a slightly different
characteristic stylistically asas they evolved so over the last
(12:02):
12 months or so, or maybe goingback a bit farther than that,
we have been buying quite asignificant number of works by
Chico, learning as we go to someextent.
How do you advise someone aboutChico's works, especially since
many will never have seensomething like this before?
Nicholas Robinson (12:24):
Well, I mean, we buy them.
We buy them because we likethem, we respond very strongly
to them and we see the innatequality in them, I think.
But I think it would bedisingenuous to say that we, you
know, we we buy them justbecause we love them.
There's lots of things in theworld that look great, that have
interesting properties, thatone could spend money on, um,
(12:47):
but, you course, when you havean artist, um who's you know,
(13:07):
you, you could say that Chico isa, is a historic artist who's
been rediscovered.
But essentially, the market forChico that we have now is, is a
, is a new market.
For all intents and purposes,it's one that did not exist
before.
His work, you know, is nowregularly trading at auction and
that's because his work hasgained some traction, it's
(13:29):
gained a following, and it'sonly gained a following because
there are a number of prominentgalleries that have now been
taking up the mantle to pushChico's work into a mainstream
consciousness.
So we have David Kordansky, who, of course, is a very reputable
gallery, based primarily in LosAngeles but has a gallery in
(13:50):
New York.
The first major Chico show, ifyou like, in a commercial sense,
was in his gallery in New York.
He had previously taken one ortwo paintings to the art fairs
in the summer autumn, uh, in theautumn of 2023.
Um, and then the galleryexhibition was the the first
sort of major thing that startedto propel attention to a new
(14:12):
level.
Um, further to that, uh, therehave been a few isolated uh
paintings come up at auction,some of which have done quite
well, some of which have alittle bit fallen between the
cracks just because the appetiteis not so evolved or developed
yet for his work.
Subsequently, there's been anexhibition by a Belgian dealer
(14:39):
who had a solo booth of Chico'swork that was very well
presented with works of veryhigh quality, at Art Genève in
Geneva.
And then, laterally, there'sbeen an exhibition at Massimo Di
Carlo, who has shown Chico'sworks in his Paris space, and
the last, most recent exhibitionis with a gallery called Bank,
(15:04):
which is a very nice Baselexhibiting gallery based in
Shanghai, and they've also donea Chico de Silva exhibition.
So we look at this cross-sectionof exhibiting galleries and we
see a deep interest and a deepappetite across multiple major
(15:25):
markets.
In the Americas, with Kordanskyhe has a high profile and a big
reach.
Massimo Di Carlo in Europe is abig, big gallery with a
powerful brand, if you will, anda gravitas to also extend the
reach and build a market.
And then you know the galleryin Shanghai is less noted and
(15:49):
less established than those twothat I've mentioned.
Um, but also a good, a goodplace and something that builds
credibility, builds awareness,and presumably they also have a
collecting reach in Asia.
So when you see this depth ofcollecting across these markets,
plus a burgeoning awarenesseven in Sao Paulo, which is the
(16:14):
sort of center of the Chicomarket in Brazil, then you can
say that you know, it's not justa small, isolated pocket of
interest, it's a deep, wideinterest globally.
Jeppe Curth (16:24):
Okay, but you can also easily say that there's no
doubt that Chico have a quiteunique position they've had for
many years in Brazilian arthistory.
So I mean, it's also quiteinteresting that from 12 months
ago there was no exhibition in aglobal scale of Chico, and now
(16:47):
I guess he is all over the place, or many places anyway.
Do you see his legacy likeinfluence the global
contemporary artists in themarket we have right now?
Nicholas Robinson (17:01):
I mean I think it's a bit too soon to say
I mean, you know we can't.
There's information, visualinformation, everywhere these
days and, and I suppose you know, things don't get made in a
vacuum and the more things thatartists see and absorb, the more
likely they are to somehowrecycle those things,
consciously or unconsciously.
(17:21):
I mean, I don't see, you know,chico, like work sort of
populating the, the, the market.
But we've seen in the recentpast figurative work that's
shown very lush, exoticlandscape.
Um, obviously, you know there'sa there's a strong interest in
(17:41):
in nature, what with the climateproblems that we've had and
that we continue to have andthat somehow remain unaddressed.
I mean, I think obviously naturehas always been a big
inspiration for artists, goingback, well, going back hundreds
of years.
You know we see the naturalsublime in Romanticism, in
(18:05):
German art and British art,landscape art in the 18th and
19th centuries.
You know we see strong feelingsof nature, the power of nature,
even in abstract expressionistpainters.
I mean, I think it's alwaysbeen there.
So yeah, I mean Chico's work isa very distinctive body of work
(18:27):
that was consistent over 20, 30years and there's a number of
paintings obviously that are outthere, that are now finding
their way, being sort ofrecycled into the market.
Obviously, when an artist is uhrediscovered and and
experiences a building marketwhere, where the prices are you
(18:51):
know vastly more than they wereonly a relatively short time ago
, then then you have sellers whoare kind of keen to take their
opportunity, if you like, to getmoney that previously was
impossible for them to thinkthat they could get.
Jeppe Curth (19:06):
Well, you said that he had been exhibited in the
Venice Biennale in 1966, so itwas almost 60 years ago.
Yes, is he represented by other?
Nicholas Robinson (19:15):
institutions.
Yes, I mean his work is in anumber of very prominent museums
.
There was a very interestingsurvey exhibition last year in
the Pinacoteca in Sao Paulo, andimportant works by Chico have
been acquired by the Tate, bythe Guggenheim and the Pompidou.
(19:39):
And just last month thePompidou acquired two more
gouaches, and this again theseare of that 60s type that I
referred to earlier, gouache onpaper mounted on a wooden board.
So of course his works now arebeing quite hungrily absorbed
(20:01):
into these powerful Westerninstitutions, and that only
helps to substantiate a sense ofconfidence in in the work so in
(20:35):
november last year a newauction record for chico's work
was hammered at sotheby's in newyork on the 14th november,
actually for 330 000 new,000 newrecord.
Jeppe Curth (20:42):
Um, if we send in a broader context of buying,
collecting art, how do you thinkhow does a Chico's work stand
in terms of value, appreciationand potential in in in the
market right now?
Nicholas Robinson (20:56):
Well, I mean, I think that was a you know in
in many, in many markets and andthe art market is no exception
a you know in many markets andthe art market is no exception.
You know, timing is key andthis was a sort of a perfect
synergy of factors, includingthe contemporaneous Kordansky
show.
You know, kordansky is animportant gallery with a
(21:19):
fantastic roster of artists anda real track record in
identifying and building marketsfor interesting things.
And this particular paintingthat was sold for this price was
a painting that had beenexhibited at the Venice Biennale
.
So it was absolutely the mostsort of prestigious work, um, by
(21:40):
Chico that could have come tothe market at this time, um, and
it was, uh, in the samecollection, an important
collection in Chicago, um, andit had been in the same
collection since 1966.
Um, so you know, it was notonly was it the the best example
of Chico's work that could havebeen offered for sale, it was
(22:01):
also completely fresh to themarket and a and a very, maybe
unique opportunity to to acquirethis seminal example of Chico's
work.
So that's, that's one one thing.
Not only that, it was a verylarge painting and these large
paintings, obviously forpaintings very big, it's worth
more than if it's very small.
But these very large paintingsare relatively rare.
(22:25):
We see lots of works by Chicothat are 60, 70, 80, even 90
centimetres, maybe a little bitless in this sort of one metre
size, but lots of paintings thatare 60, 70 centimetres in size
and typically these galleriesthat I've mentioned are selling
(22:45):
these paintings for somewherearound 50, $60,000 euros.
Um, that's the, that's themarket price.
Um, when they have sold atauction they've been selling,
you know, anywhere from sort of30 to $70,000 to 70 000.
So you know a much bigger plusor minus range relative to this
(23:09):
quite strict pricing structurethat you know these galleries
independently collectively, Imean, I think independently have
determined, and I think youknow they're all sticking to
this, this price that kordanskyhas set, because you know the,
the, the key to building amarket is to consistently adhere
(23:30):
to a price um and to, to, to,you know, to ensure that they
don't go out into the, into theworld, unless that's the price
Um.
You know if, if, if, the worksare vetted carefully for
condition and authenticity then,I think you know they're good,
good things to buy.
I think it's possible to buythem for less, um, if you scour
(23:53):
auctions, especially auctions inBrazil.
But of course, then you, youknow you have to.
You have to deal with dealingwith dealing with a business in
Brazil.
You know authentication, who'sbeen responsible for that?
You know all of these kinds ofthings.
Are you able to check out thecondition?
Probably not.
It's a little bit more of aleap of faith.
(24:14):
Say, the market premium pricefrom Kordansky or Massimo
Toccarolo, for instance.
You know, you, you presumablybuying the safety of all of
those things already havinghaving been done for you, um
also because we have seen somefake works out there.
Yeah, we've seen some fake works.
(24:35):
Um, yeah, and you know there'sa slightly different set of
criteria.
I suppose that we apply to theterm fakes, at least in this
particular context.
There are some overt forgerieswhere people are attempting to
copy a Chico type work or makesomething ostensibly in his
(24:58):
style that they then try andpass off as an authentic Chico
de Silva painting.
But there are also other workssort of related to Chico and his
production, made in the regionat the time where there was a
kind of a different attitudetowards fakes.
Obviously, you know, we're notproposing that similar or
(25:21):
related works are the same orequivalent to Chico's paintings,
but, um, just to sort of diveinto the nuance of this question
, um, when Chico was in his pompin the late sixties and
seventies, um, he was um,successful, very commercially
successful, selling paintings,uh, selling paintings to, you
(25:43):
know, to the collecting classesof Brazil.
And he had a studio, aproduction facility that was
making paintings.
There's the exhibition at thePinacoteca in Sao Paulo
addressed this, they call it thePirambu School and there were,
I think, four or five artiststhat that constituted the
(26:04):
members of his studio and eachof them made different
contributions to the evolutionof Chico Starr, some of them
painted at his direction, someof them innovated additions to
the, to the style, to therepertoire of motifs that were
being painted, um, and so nowit's able to, you're able to,
(26:30):
sort of pass some works, uh,from others as to whose hand is
involved in making them.
Ultimately, chico's signaturewas applied to these paintings,
um, because they were paintingsmade in his studio.
But this is simply akin to oldmaster studio guild systems,
whereby you would have a masterwho was responsible for
producing the painting and was,you know, ultimately the author
(26:52):
of the painting, but where youmight have, let's say, rembrandt
, responsible for painting theface, the eyes, the hands, the
most expressive components of apainting.
You would have other journeymanpainters that specialized in
different elements of painting.
You would have somebody whowould be a specialist in
painting drapery of the clothesor the food and the tablecloth,
(27:18):
or the landscape or the physicalenvironment behind the people.
All of these, all of thesetasks were divided up in a
division of labor according todifferent specializations, and
you know, it's of course notquite the same in Chico's studio
, but there are some parallelsto this.
And Chico and his colleagues,they also celebrated the
(27:41):
communal nature of making thesepaintings.
So what to them was a certainkind of cooperative
collaboration, is sort ofcollegial um enthusiasm with
which they were making thesepaintings.
Um, you know, in in theseventies, for instance, um
Chablot made some unfortunatecomments which cast aspersions
(28:01):
on uh authenticity of Chico'swork, because he was, you know,
I don't know his, his motivesfor doing this, um, but but but
his comments at least causedChico great deal of despair and
uh were significant catalyst foran already deteriorating mental
and emotional state and aserious dependency on alcohol.
(28:21):
So you know, when we look atChico's paintings and we
question their authenticity,there are certain things you
have to bear in mind.
There are certain elements ofthe works you need to
interrogate.
But if you do this, you know,mindful of these points that
I've made, then you know you canarrive at.
You know, mindful of thesepoints that I've made, then you
(28:42):
know you can arrive at, at, atyou know the right conclusion,
um, but I think if you areconscious of those things and
you take care of making surethose criteria are properly
satisfied, then you know buyingwork, um is, is a, is a sound
thing.
I mean, certainly the museumrepresentation is something
(29:04):
that's continuing and is, youknow, looking very strong and
probably there'll be someinstitutional exhibitions that
we can look forward to,hopefully in interesting Western
institutions that help tocement Chico's place and his
reputation amongst these sort ofgreat, you know, artists of the
(29:26):
20th century.
The interesting thing about hiswork, I think you know, I mean
his work was highly praised byAndre Malraux in the 1960s.
That's a sort of interestingpoint to make.
That's a sort of interestingpoint to make.
You know, there's alwaysartists who are maybe a little
bit bit of an outlier.
(29:47):
I mean the prevailing trends inthe 1960s.
You can look at pop art.
You can look at minimalism art.
You can look at the infancy ofconceptual art, post-minimal
conceptual art.
You know, chico does not fitinto any of those boxes.
His work is much more in thisexpressive trajectory.
Um, you know, you can look atartists in the early 20th
(30:09):
century like henry russo, whowas known as a le douanier or
the customs officer.
He was a self-taught artist whomade these very exotic scenes
and his work was was adored bythe avant-garde.
Picasso thought his work wasspectacular, the surrealists
thought his work was spectacularand he was a big inspiration to
them.
And you know so Chico is anartist who plows this very
(30:32):
singular furrow for himself, isan artist who, because of these
unique qualities, is able toappeal in a very broad way.
Jeppe Curth (30:41):
Thanks, nick.
Nick, some interesting pointsof reference.
Maybe also people listeninghere would be interesting to
dive a bit more into his works.
Um, first thing, we maybe seeif it's something they like to
look at.
Uh, these creatures, amazoncreatures, um, but what, what?
(31:01):
What can you do?
If you want a deep dive intothe Chico works, what would you
recommend?
Nicholas Robinson (31:07):
Well, I mean, I think that, like most people,
when you're looking to try andlearn something new, you look
online and you search and yousee what comes up.
And I think that you know, ifyou're interested in seeing a
number of examples of the workand then reading some contextual
(31:29):
information about it, then lookat Kordansky's site, look at
Massimo Di Carlo's site and youcan read the sort of potted
history that these gallerieshave put together.
There's a couple of reallygreat galleries in Brazil that
have got interesting texts aboutthe artists.
If you look at there's agallery called Galatea, there's
(31:52):
a gallery called Gomide.
All of these galleries have gotinformation that you can absorb
if you wish to see, see some Um, and then you know you'll find
you'll find information relatedto his institutional shows, the
Pinacoteca.
You know you can search onlinein the museums I've mentioned
Pompidou, tate, guggenheim,they'll all.
(32:14):
They'll all record theacquisitions and have probably
some information about about thework and have probably some
information about the work.
If you're interested in buyingwork, then you can look on Artsy
, which is the leading onlinemarketplace for art, for modern,
contemporary art, and you'llsee a number of examples there.
You can inquire after them,you'll find.
(32:39):
Maybe there's not so muchavailable and you'll find that
they're typically 50, 60,000bucks.
Um, you know, I mean we, we, wecarry an inventory of works.
If, if you're interested in inin finding more out about what
we have, then you're welcome.
Welcome to reach out to us too,right?
Jeppe Curth (32:55):
Yeah, of course.
And are we?
Are we finished buying Chicoworks?
Nicholas Robinson (32:58):
um, probably not.
I, I think that you know, um, Imean, we're, we're, we're art
dealers, of course.
So you know, we, we always haveto be opportunistic a little
about our acquisition price.
Um, it's getting much harder tofind them.
The ones that are coming ourway are fewer and farther
(33:19):
between and typically moreexpensive.
But I think you know, I mean,all being well, we'll, we'll
continue to buy, to buy Chicoworks, and we'll continue to
encourage people to lookseriously at them as as a really
interesting thing to acquirethank you for the conversation,
(33:50):
nick, and thank you for lettingus into the world of chico.
Yeah, it's an interesting world.
You should um dive into it, um,although you should avoid the
sharp teeth of the fish makesense.
Jeppe Curth (34:05):
Well, if you have anything, any question, if you
want to buy or sell some arts,yours, welcome to contact me at
jeppe at nordic art partnerscom,and thank you for this time.
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