January 11, 2025 • 73 mins
In this candid conversation, Courtney Close shares her unlikely journey from organizing underground ceremonies to founding one of the largest public ayahuasca churches in America.
Learn how Hummingbird Church evolved from small gatherings to hosting thousands of participants, all while maintaining unwavering commitments to safety and indigenous traditions.
Discover crucial insights about facilitator burnout, sustainable business practices, and the importance of proper screening and safety protocols in the plant medicine space.
#PlantMedicine #Ayahuasca #SpiritualGrowth #Healing #PersonalDevelopment #Retreat #RetreatBusiness #TransformationalExperiences
Timestamps:
00:00 Courtney Close Intro
02:27 Courtney's Journey and Hummingbird Church
06:41 Safety and Legal Considerations
09:41 Financial Sustainability and Scholarships
12:35 Integration and Community Building
15:35 Lessons Learned and Future Plans
35:39 Practical Safety Measures
39:53 The Growing Demand for Ayahuasca Ceremonies
40:42 Personal Burnout and the Importance of Integration
42:55 The Value of Facilitators and Fair Compensation
46:37 The Necessity of Self-Care in Healing Work
57:48 Sobriety and Simple Living as Healing Tools
01:07:58 Final Thoughts
About the Guest:
Courtney Close is the founder of Hummingbird Church, one of the largest publicly visible ayahuasca churches in America.
With experience spanning hundreds of Ayahuasca ceremonies, she's pioneered safety protocols and legal frameworks that have helped transform underground ceremonies into legitimate spiritual practices.
Her work focuses on creating safe, accessible spaces for healing while honoring indigenous traditions and supporting medicine carriers from various lineages.
About RetreatHelp:
RetreatHelp is an end-to-end business consulting and marketing systems provider with a mission to simplify the business of retreats, helping conscious leaders sell out their events faster, increase revenue, and have a greater impact with less stress.
We specialize in helping retreat leaders and conscious business owners streamline and scale their businesses through our comprehensive Four Pillar System: marketing, sales, technical systems, and business operations. Using cutting-edge technology, AI integration, and automated solutions, RetreatHelp enables retreat facilitators to focus on creating transformative experiences while reducing manual workload.
Guest Links:
✦ Main Website: https://hummingbirdchurch.com/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hummingbird_church/
✦ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hummingbirdchurch/
✦ Email: info@hummingbirdchurch.com
Podcast links:
✦ Website: https://retreathelp.com/podcast
✦ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/64GwMQE2QPLqDE9fFxIFR2
✦ ApplePodcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-complete-retreat-podcast/id1784541260
✦ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RetreatHelp
Additional links:
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✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/retreat_help/
✦ Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1462938347760779
✦ RetreatHelp Private Community: https://community.retreathelp.com/login
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024 (00:00):
the last time I saw you Joshua tree.
We were underground gettingkicked out of every fucking
Airbnb in Joshua tree whensomebody checked the security
cameras, saw people vomiting.
And that was so stressful.
And that was a big part of like,Oh my God, I can't do this in
the shadows anymore.
we had an underground ceremonywhere not just like one cop
(00:20):
showed up, like the whole squadshowed up, we had a helicopter
and county SWAT and guns andeverything.
And I was like, fuck this.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (00:30):
You can have that shift your good
intentions from can go from ahealing process to actually a
process.
That's, as you said, stuntingyour growth and holding you
back.
It can go from your set of wingsto your ball and chain
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD C (00:47):
Welcome to another episode of the
complete retreat podcast wherewe talk to retreat creators and
industry experts About what ittakes to create a thriving
retreat business Today, my guestis courtney close who's the
founder of hummingbird church Asfar as I can tell, Hummingbird
Church is one of the largest,above ground, and publicly
visible ayahuasca churches inthe country.
(01:09):
Courtney shares a ton ofvaluable information in this
episode talking about how shewent from organizing a handful
of underground retreats everyonce in a while to the point
where she is now organizingmultiple retreats in multiple
states across the country.
I've known Courtney for severalyears going even before the
inception of Hummingbird Churchso it's been really amazing to
(01:32):
see her progress in this amountof time.
And I really value her focus andthe focus of Hummingbird Church
on safety, and the fact thatthey work with indigenous
medicine carriers from differentlineages.
I think that's super importantand super cool.
In this conversation, we touchon a handful of important
topics, including money inceremonies, which a lot of
(01:55):
people don't like to think aboutor talk about, but it's a real
thing, and facilitator burnout.
What that looks like and theresults of that, what can happen
when people don't take time awayfrom facilitation work in plant
medicine ceremonies.
So, yeah, stick around to theend.
This is a great conversation.
I think you're really going tolove it.
courtney-close_1_08-21-202 (02:14):
hey, how are you doing?
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (02:16):
I'm doing really well.
It's great to talk to you.
It's been a hot minute sincewe've.
Communicated and had aconversation and I know a lot's
come up for you and a lot oftime has passed.
So, hey, I'd love to hear alittle bit about where you're at
now since we last spoke and Ilast saw you and what's exciting
for you.
And I guess that's a good placeto start.
(02:38):
What's exciting in your worldright now?
And what do you, what are youjazzed about?
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (02:42):
So right now I'm really excited
about working with thesedifferent lineages.
Hummingbird Church, we primarilyjust worked with Taita Pedro and
the Kamsas.
And we've been doing that forabout five years.
Like two years underground andalmost four years as a church.
And the demand for ceremoniesjust kept increasing and
(03:03):
increasing.
It was typically, something thatwe were just going to do a few
times a year in SouthernCalifornia.
And then Southern Californiaturned into Utah and Oregon and
Missouri and Hawaii.
And and 30 different retreatsand, It was a lot.
It was a lot, a lot.
(03:24):
And then this year I tried toslow it down, but the demand is
like, it's a lot.
There's tons of people that wantto come, to retreats and
ceremonies and are looking for asafe place to experience the
medicine.
So we ended up adding a littlebit more trying to simplify
things to make it easier on theteam, like putting retreat
leaders there.
So I'm not at every single one.
(03:46):
And also now trying to likeoffer different experiences.
We, talk to people in ourcommunity and a lot of them
don't want to, or have the timeto do like a full retreat that
I've already set.
They just want to go for onenight.
So now we're starting to dothat.
And.
People are curious about sittingwith the different lineages and
they want to be able to go downto the jungle with a group.
(04:09):
So we've started doing groupsdown to Columbia and down to the
Brazilian Amazon.
So for next year, we're tryingto get everything ready to where
we can start leading thosegroups.
Tours down there and then alsopreparing everything for these
different lineages that we'reworking with.
And the first one we have comingup is in October.
(04:29):
We're bringing in Haru and HiraKuntanawa to lead a retreat with
us.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
It's totally different than, howwe've, Been experiencing the
medicine like the Brazilianceremonies, there's dancing.
There's movement.
There's a lot of music and theygo until the sun goes up.
(04:49):
And.
So it's a bit of likeadjustment, but we're really
trying to keep in there, likethe core principles and
practices that we've always doneto keep people safe and the same
facilitators the same group, butjust creating a space for these
different lineages and learningabout what they have to offer
(05:10):
and their knowledge and theirexperience.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
That's going to be our first onein October.
And then The Hona and AnaeYawanawa are coming up and we're
going to do a Utah one with themand a Southern California with
them and then a meeting next,not next, we're going to have
the following weekend with TaitaLuis and Maria Abuela Maria, and
(05:34):
then in two weeks with TaitaGladino.
to talk about planning out 2025.
So 2025, we want to do multiplestates, Hawaii, California,
Utah, Oregon Texas, and Missouriset up teams in each state so
that we're not traveling asmuch.
(05:54):
And then when these indigenousmedicine carriers come to do
their tours in the U S we'rebooking them.
And, working with othercommunities as well, because
other communities bring upreally great, amazing carriers
of the medicine and.
We want to, create safe placesfor these people to work and
then also create work for them.
(06:15):
There's nothing but abundance inthis area and there's no reason
for anybody to feel like there'scompetition or insecurity or
anything like that.
So I really want to partner morewith the different communities
with people that are like, Ihave this amazing, Medicine
carrier, and maybe they're notsure how to market it or how to
(06:35):
do a ceremony or what they needto do to legally protect
themselves.
Or even, visit the physicalsafety part.
And that's something that I feellike we've learned so much about
that in the last few years anddoing as many retreats as we
have.
So I'm not saying every scenariohas happened.
Lord God, I hope it has, but somany of them have, and we've
(06:56):
learned so much and documentedso much and had really great
people to help us put the legalstuff together and the safety
protocols together and thelesson learned.
And I want to share thatinformation with people, whether
you're part of HummingbirdChurch or not.
Just to me, that's open sourcecode.
It's not like we have a formulato follow, or we all went to
(07:19):
college for this and trained forthis.
I mean, this is a really insanething to do.
Like you're in a gray area ofthe law.
You have adults mostly workingthrough trauma on.
The world's, one of the world'sstrongest entheogens and you're
bringing up these indigenouspeople from South America and
you're trying to honor theirtradition, but also adapt it so
(07:40):
that it works in America andit's.
So much, it's so heavy.
It's so much, it's such afucking mess, but it's
absolutely beautiful.
And I, I don't feel anyattachment to like hoarding that
information or keeping it allfor me.
Like I, I want to share it withpeople.
And so I'm putting together somedifferent documents and
(08:01):
workshops and things that we cando.
To help other entheogenic churchleaders, or even people that are
doing psychedelic retreats,because I really believe, yeah,
there's like some bad actors andnefarious people in the space
but overall people have reallygood intentions.
And I had really good intentionswhen I came into this space, but
there was so much that I wasignorant to, and so many things
(08:25):
that, by the grace of God, likecould have gone wrong that
didn't.
And I know that a lot of peopleare coming into this space with
like, they had a life changingexperience or they had just,
they believe in this work andthey want to honor it, but you
don't know what you don't know.
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Came (08:41):
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courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (09:41):
So I really want to focus in 2025
and getting that information outto people that want to do this
sincerely and safely.
So that, our hard lessonslearned can hopefully make it a
little easier for someone elseand keep everybody as safe as
possible and also make this worklook like less of a joke to
(10:04):
people that think we're just,doing drugs or being a bunch of
stupid hippies and to really Youknow, honor and respect and
create safe places for theseindigenous medicine carriers to,
to do the best work that theycan do.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (10:18):
Well, that's beautiful.
And I, my personal belief isthat we're Moving into an era
where, like you said, the sourcecode information is going to be
more and more available, wherein the past it used to be siloed
and people used to be able tokeep it close to their chest and
not be able to share or not wantto share, I believe the energy
(10:39):
of the planet is just movingmore into a kind of a communal
sort of, Vibe, and that's, withcryptocurrency and, entheogens
being decriminalized, that'sjust on multiple levels and
different systems, the economicsystems, the educational
systems, the governmentalsystems that things are going to
be more Open and available andaccessible and just information
(11:03):
in general.
So that's really cool and soundslike you're planning to ride
that wave into the future and Iget a really strong sense that's
going to be a very fruitful wayto interact with the medicine
and being inclusive.
with the different indigenouscommunities while honoring their
specific traditions.
(11:23):
So that's super rad.
And I was thinking about it.
And the last time I saw you, I'mpretty sure it was the first
weekend of August in 2001.
So, or 2000.
it was the first weekend inAugust of 2001.
Of 2020.
So it was after COVID, yeah, thefirst weekend in August of 2020.
(11:47):
So the summer, the tail end ofthe summer after COVID, well,
COVID was still a thing then.
And Hummingbird Church wasn't,if I recall correctly, it wasn't
established at that point.
So I'm curious to hear.
I'm curious to hear about, that,that journey going from, as you
(12:08):
said the underground toestablishing the church, maybe a
little bit about what thatprovides and the benefits of
that, because I know noteverybody has done that.
And kind of the growth andevolution of Hummingbird Church
from, I think, yeah when I waswith you, it was maybe just the
seed planted in the mind.
And now it's a, it's a thing,it's going, the train is on the
(12:29):
tracks and it's moving forward.
So I'd love to hear about that
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (12:33):
Yeah.
And all that was superunintentional.
so yeah, for the last time I sawyou Joshua tree.
We were underground gettingkicked out of every fucking
Airbnb in Joshua tree whensomebody checked the security
cameras, saw people vomiting.
And that was so stressful.
And that was a big part of like,Oh my God, I can't do this in
(12:53):
the shadows anymore.
I don't, I really sincerelydidn't believe that we were
doing anything wrong and to runaround like rats and like get
kicked out of Airbnbs and havejust so much chaos, it goes.
Along with like being in theshadows and I right after that
one.
I was like, I can't fucking dothis anymore Or that was running
(13:14):
Springs.
Yeah that running Springs wasthe last time I was like, I
can't do this anymore This islike just so ridiculous and I
actually right after that onecalled it quits.
I was like, I'm done Like I,cause I drink so much medicine
and I was like, I just want mynormal life.
I want to walk my dog.
I want to like, hang out with mykid.
I don't want to deal with allthis.
(13:35):
I don't want to like be lookingover my shoulder.
Am I going to get arrested?
Or, I just didn't, I wasn't eveneducated on the laws at that
point.
And then I took a break and afriend of mine was like, from
Texas was like, I really want todrink ayahuasca.
Will you go with me to aceremony in Florida?
And it was COVID, still takingplace and airfare was still
(13:57):
super cheap.
So I think it was like 39 bucksto fly from LAX to Tampa.
And I was like, okay, this willbe the last time I drink
medicine.
I'm absolutely done.
And I drank the medicine and itjust, I fell in love with it all
over again and had this amazingceremony and I was like It was
just the message from thatsermon is like, you aren't doing
(14:19):
anything wrong.
And so how do you bring this tothe people that need it the
most?
Because with the undergroundceremonies, like you had to know
somebody, you had to get inthere.
There was no opportunity forscholarship.
It was like, you just showed upand.
gave the shaman your money andhoped we didn't get kicked out
of the Airbnb before theceremony was over.
There was no retreat.
(14:40):
There was no like food.
There was no activities.
There was no breath where it wasjust, you showed up and gave a
dude your money and went home.
And after that ceremony, I feltlike, okay, well, there's other
churches that do this.
How do you do it?
And I had no idea what to do.
And then it was like two weeksafter I came back, I I met Greg
(15:02):
Lake, who's an attorney and himand I started talking on
Facebook and he kind of startedpointing me in the right
directions to discuss the, likewhat the law was, what the
rights were, what the riskreally, what the risk is.
And to to make that, to, toeducate myself and get that
understanding on what was Irisking?
(15:24):
How are you protected or notprotected?
How do you even file thepaperwork to start a church?
What do you need to do?
And he kind of, was my chaperonedown that rabbit hole.
Which led to other, amazingpeople that started pointing me
in the right direction andproviding the resources that I
needed.
And then my friend SusieCalypso, she she has a Bufo
(15:48):
church, Temple of Eden inSouthern California, but she
didn't have that either at thetime.
And so she was like, I want todo this, but with Bufo.
So then I had a partner to kindof navigate this space with and
figure out everything fromfiling the article incorporation
with the state getting an EINnumber from the IRS creating
your church documents, yourstatement of belief Which bank
(16:11):
isn't going to take your money,which website isn't going to
confiscate your money which werelessons that we all learned the
hard way and lost a lot ofmoney.
So it was just this whirlwind oflike, once I made the decision,
okay, this is what I want to do.
This is the only way I feel goodgoing forward working with the
medicine.
I can't do this undergroundthing.
(16:32):
I can't run around like I'mdoing something wrong, acting
like I'm doing something wrong.
It's a weird energy to evenbring into ceremony.
And then to be all fuckingparanoid.
I mean, there were times wherewe would do the ceremonies
underground.
I'd be like looking out thewindow, like a tweaker, like,
Oh, is that a cop?
Like, and, you know, Um, andthen, we had an underground
ceremony where not just like onecop showed up, like the whole
(16:54):
squad showed up, we had ahelicopter and county SWAT and
guns and everything.
And I was like, fuck this.
Like I can't.
And that was right after I madethe decision for the church.
I went to another ceremony thatwas underground in November and
the whole damn San BernardinoCounty, sheriffs and SWAT came
out with the helicopter.
(17:16):
And it was fine.
Once the cops like figured outthat like people weren't dying,
they, they had heard thescreaming is what called the
cops what we got the cops there.
And a big thing about when wecame out, out of, out of the
shadows.
Was we could go to the neighborsand say, Hey we're doing an
ayahuasca ceremony.
People may scream, you may hearthrowing up, you may hear
(17:37):
crying.
Here's my cell phone number.
If it's annoying or you'reconcerned, text me, we could go
to the local police departmentand say, this is what we're
doing.
If you get calls like that,here's the phone number.
Here's the address.
And be out and not hide and itcompletely transformed the
energetics of the ceremony to,having organizers and retreat
(17:57):
leaders and people there thatare relaxed and not standing out
in the front yard, waiting forthe police.
And and so that was really themain driver of it.
And it was like, how do we letpeople know we're doing this?
Because essentially for 2 years,we were seeing the same people
over and over again.
And it was a lot of the samedemographic.
It was like primarily whitepeople in their mid twenties to
(18:22):
mid thirties like nobody showedup with like a fentanyl
addiction or like deep trauma.
Not a lot of minorities.
It was just kind of milk, likeit was the same.
People and that it didn't feellike we were accomplishing a
whole lot when we wereunderground and that was a big
driver, too.
(18:43):
So I don't know everything in2000 in late 2020 after the
ceremony where the cops came andI was still, I was planning
everything.
And I think For me, likespiritually, when like the whole
shit show showed up with all thecops and stuff, like that was a
test for me.
Like now that your worst fearshappen, let it go.
(19:07):
Yeah.
I ended up in jail.
Everybody was safe.
I could actually break down whythe cops actually showed up and
realize I had control oversomething like that, to prevent
something like that fromhappening in the future.
And then that confidence of likeus not all getting hauled off,
And thrown in a jail cell, whichwas like something that I
thought would happen.
(19:28):
So yeah, after that we, we filedeverything and we had our first
public ceremony where we built awebpage and actually had
coworkers of mine at theinsurance office, like helping
me do this and like put thewebsite up, build that do, a
Instagram page and I didn't knowI just oh, here's a little flyer
(19:50):
and then We posted a bunch ofmemes and the meme started like
weirdly driving people to thepage like and we would get I was
like We got a thousand followersin a month just from like
reposting spiritual memes andcreating memes and stuff The
memes were like, just a odddriver of people to ceremony.
And that's what really got theawareness of what we were trying
(20:12):
to do.
And the first ceremony that forHummingbird church, like my
neighbor had offered, she's likeoffered a barn that she had,
that was just her ex boyfriendand was like a hoarder and it
had all this shit in it.
And she's like, you guys canclean it out.
You guys can use the barn.
And I was like, we'll make itwork.
So for three months, myboyfriend, my baby's daddy, my
(20:37):
ex boyfriend like a bunch ofjust other people that were
randomly around helped us cleanout this barn and redo it and
cut the stalls out of it and,put lights in it and insulate it
and bought all this stuff.
And I ended up now it being lateDecember of 2020 being 30, 000
(20:57):
in the whole.
Without one ayahuasca ceremonybecause I knew I wanted the mats
and I wanted materials and thesethings, and I wanted a website
and I wanted all this, so I waslike, I'm only gonna spend
10,000.
And then it 10 went to 20, wentto 30, and I was like, oh shit.
And the first.
Ceremony we did, I hope I canjust get 25, at least 25 people
(21:19):
there.
So it's worth, tied to Pedro'stime for coming out and like,
maybe not financially lose moremoney on it.
And within two weeks of postingthe ceremony, I had 40 people
signed up.
And I was like, Oh shit.
Like I grossly underestimatedthe demand for the ceremonies.
(21:40):
And then, and I, and I.
I think for that, I mean, I wasjust trying to break even and it
was like 675 for threeceremonies.
So I would usually would end upabout 000 in the hole from it.
And that was a big thing too,like of lessons learning, like
you can't bankrupt yourself inthis, and you don't have to take
a vow of poverty.
(22:01):
As long as you're, Like writingthat line.
I see a lot of people that getinto this struggle with that
too.
Like, how do we charge for myservices?
How do I make money?
Am I being evil?
Like, is this fucked up?
Is this some Babylon shit?
Like if I'm trying to get paidfor all this time and effort and
financial risk that I didversus, you know, being able to
provide scholarships and Peoplethat don't have the financial
(22:24):
means into it.
So it was, that was like a wholenother thing that took like two
years.
I'm still trying to figure thatout, but it took two years to,
before ever like making aprofit, but it did, it would
take about two years to paymyself back for these ceremonies
for the initial investment ofit, and then probably like after
(22:45):
that, making a little bit ofmoney from it which was.
Yeah, it was just a really weirdspace to be in.
I think it's hard for peoplewhen you're doing spiritual work
and you're doing work to helppeople to put a value on your
time and your services.
And there's this kind of likeweird societal expectation that
like you're doing somethingwrong by charging for it, but
(23:05):
it's your time and it's yourenergy and it's your life like,
and it's your expertise.
And so I, the kind of balance Ifound with now is that as long
as I'm able to, when we comeacross that person who
absolutely has no financialmeans of getting to ceremony.
To be like, fuck it, dude, wegot a map for you.
(23:27):
And we've never had to be like,oh, we can't help this person
that we want to help there'sbecause there is such abundance
in this space and being a goodsteward of the finances is
really important because there'splenty of people that, Are
willing to pay that have themeans to pay and you need the
money to make it happen But asyou manage your money and your
(23:51):
finances correctly, you can helpthe people that can't pay for it
And I we every year our goal islike right around fifty thousand
dollars in scholarships givepeople and we You know, mean or
exceed that every year.
And we do creative things like,selling t shirts to, raise money
(24:12):
for the veteran scholarships.
Doing different, like, events.
We've never personally done likea GoFundMe or anything like that
because we haven't had to.
So yeah, it was like once we,started charging more and not
losing, I wasn't personallylosing money because you get
really burnt out too.
Like when you're financiallydrained, you can't continue to
do the good work you believe inwhen you're just, it starts
(24:36):
changing your, the way you feelabout this thing is in a very
negative way.
So you really have to take careof yourself and your
organization financially to beable to do anything that you
want to do.
And that's something like, Ican't stress enough to people
because I see a lot of peopledoing what I did, financially
hurting themselves, like, orbeing like, I don't know, I
(24:57):
don't know how much to chargeor, and it's like, you just
really have to sit down andpractically like look at the
numbers and evaluate it and setgoals as to what you're trying
to achieve.
It can't just be like all woo.
You really need to do some 3dshit to have any kind of
longevity in this space.
And really ask yourself, behonest with yourself about what
(25:21):
kind of exchange you expect foryour energy and your time.
So you don't feel burnt out andbitter and like.
Fuck that shit, like it'sbecause it's hard.
This is the hardest this work isso hard This is so there's so
many times with this I'm like,I'm gonna go running back to the
Catholic Church or to acorporate America like because
it's easier and this is Hard andso your heart needs to be in it
(25:42):
and you need to be taken care ofand you need to have balance So
that you don't go off the wallsbecause you're dealing with some
crazy You stuff.
And yeah, so it was like, thosethings were all happening and
working themselves out and thenwe're bringing in facilitators
and it was just, there was fourof us when we started
(26:03):
hummingbird church.
It was me, Brian, Joe, Susie,well, and Tito Pedro.
So five, that was it.
That was our facilitators for a40 person ceremony.
There was no music.
There was, we had Vitaly comeand do breathwork the first one,
and that was his first timedoing group breathwork.
And then he blew up like butthat was it.
That was our, that was yourcrew.
(26:25):
And then people were like, Hey,we want to help you guys.
And so every time we do aretreat, we basically adopt five
people from that retreat thatwould help us out the next one.
And it grew and grew and grew towhere now we have 85 people
that, Regularly volunteer orstaff members and run these
retreats and each person broughta new piece of the puzzle.
(26:49):
They, whether it was cooking orpatients or medical information,
it was like everything weneeded, we kept getting from the
community.
And soon we ended up having thisBadass community of doctors,
lawyers, psychiatrists,musicians, artists people from
(27:10):
different indigenous lineages,just good people.
Like, and every, like so manydifferent nationalities and
backgrounds.
And I mean, it's just such it'sthe goonies.
Like if you looked at us alltogether, you'd be like, why the
fuck are these people hangingout with each other?
There's not a type.
It's not like, Oh, we're alllike wearing white, doing yoga.
(27:32):
It's not like that.
We're real people.
We look like a fucking grocerystore.
Like it's not.
And that was kind of the goal,like for our, so many of these
ceremonies I went, I was thefirst year that I did plant
medicine, I was a ceremonyhopper.
I went to everybody's ceremony.
I saw you had a bunch of them.
You were like every ayahuascaceremony for every group in
(27:53):
SoCal.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161 (27:56):
That was like the 2017 2017 era.
I was like, Oh, there's Courtneyagain.
Joshua Tree.
Every time I went to JoshuaTree, regardless of why I was
going there, I'm like, I bet I'mgoing to see Courtney this
weekend.
And we'd see each other.
It's like, Oh, you again.
It's great to see ya.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (28:14):
Yeah, I 2017 2018 was fuck.
I drink a lot of medicine andand there wasn't really talk
back then about integration oranything.
It was like, you drank themedicine and you went home.
And then for me, it was likeevery other weekend I was at a
fucking ceremony.
Like ayahuasca, San Pedro,Wachuma, Bufo.
(28:35):
And that's why I stronglyadvocate against doing that now
is like, I'm just so gratefulfor my brain and my ability to
bounce back and cause it wasjust too much.
But you, for me, I, you know,I'd been a drug addict, like,
And I was super depressed afterI had my kid and I was not going
to go back to drugs.
I was like, I'll kill myselfbefore I go back to doing drugs
(28:57):
to deal with life.
And when I found plantmedicines, I started having
these breakthroughs, but then Istarted like when it shit starts
getting real and you're in thereal world and it's time to
test, like, do you want to bethat shitty person?
Do you want to go back to what'scomfortable or do you want to
really be this better person?
It was like, Oh no, more plantmedicine, like I'm going to, I'm
(29:20):
not going to sit with that.
I'm going to go to anotherceremony and I'm going to start
having these mysticalexperiences and I'm going to
chase this mystic and veryungrounded, still helpful, but
also harmful at the same time.
And it was like the amount ofmedicine in that 2017, 2018
period.
Like I don't think anybody needsto do that in their whole entire
(29:42):
fucking life.
But when you're not integratingand you're bypassing and you're
hopping from ceremony toceremony, from plant medicine to
plant medicine, I don't know.
I just thought I'll like, Iwould just do enough of it.
And then just one day I'll belike, Oh, I'm all better.
Like I'm an ascended fuckingmaster.
Now I reached enlightenmentbecause I drank enough peyote or
ayahuasca.
(30:03):
I didn't, I had no concept ofdoing the work.
Hardly anybody was talking aboutit.
And the people that were talkingabout it.
Like, where somebody would popinto my Instagram reel or on
social media, I'd be like, eww.
Like who, it just, it seemed, Idon't know, it just seemed like
douchey.
It wasn't relatable.
It wasn't, I was likeintegration.
(30:25):
I was like, oh, this is wherethe therapist tried to
manipulate the space and get inhere and like take all the
fucking magic out of it.
And then you get to a spot whereyou really, with these powerful
entheogens and spirits, likethey lay you out.
And they're like.
Alright, now you gotta do thework.
So if I would've known aboutthings like integration and
(30:47):
taking breaks and that, it'snot, it's, they're not fucking
Pokemon.
You don't gotta catch them all,dude.
Like, you don't need to justtake all the plant medicines,
and it doesn't make you anycooler or better or even more
progressed in your personaldevelopment.
It actually makes you kind ofretard things.
And um, from those ceremoniesand from overdoing it.
(31:08):
And from that experience is whatI, brought to hummingbird and
like our kind of joke with a lotof the facilitators, because we
all like that we're in that timeperiod when entheogen is just
boom, they're in the U S andthey're here and there's all
these ceremonies and so countFlorida, like those are the two
hotspots happening everyweekend, like.
(31:29):
We say we went to every shittyceremony in the U.
S.
so you don't have to, and learnthose lessons and, talk about
the importance of integrationand have integration where we've
got people that are doing itthat aren't telling you what to
think or what to do, but justholding that space for you.
Like we say, the raft's goingdown the river and it's just,
(31:50):
they're just the oar that keepit from hitting the rock too
hard.
Like, that's it.
And, And it's all from lessonslearned.
This is, we're all very muchpioneers in this space and
learning these things anddeveloping it.
And yeah, I mean, we just reallytry to help people not have to
(32:11):
go through what, like we wentthrough to come to the same
conclusion and not hurtthemselves in the process.
So everything that we've done atHummingbird and continue to do
is.
from experience, from us livingit.
Not because anybody told us todo it.
It's all been, hard lessons andwisdom gained.
(32:32):
And and I know, and I hope, Iknow, and I hope a year from now
I look at what I was doing todayand go, Ooh, you know, and
because we're growing anddeveloping and learning and not
thinking we have it all figuredout.
So, yeah, it's been, it's.
It's been a lot of lessonslearned and that's why I really
do feel passionate about sharingthis information for that person
(32:54):
that wants to come into thespace.
Instead of looking at everybodywith suspicion, like, why do
you, why are you here?
You don't have the right to behere.
What experience do you have?
I'd much rather just assumepeople have goodwill, let God
and the people and the medicinesort it out and just share the
information and the lessonslearned.
Because I don't think like withHummingbird Church, what we
(33:14):
were, what we did, I don't thinka lot of people in the U.
S.
were doing that.
We're doing as many retreats aswe were.
We're doing them Indigenous ledand had the number of
participants that we did.
Oh, all I care about is money.
There's no fucking money! Like,if you're doing this to like,
cause it's like, you think it'sa good way to make money?
You're gonna learn it's not.
(33:35):
It's really fucking not.
This is expensive.
There's a lot of liability.
You're dealing with so manymoving paces, like basically any
other thing you'd wanna do wouldbe a better thing way to make
money than this.
And it takes so much heart andlike you really have to believe
in it to do it.
And our, when we would have somany people in ceremony, it was
(33:57):
because we just didn't knowwhat, like we didn't wanna tell
people, no.
We didn't know what to do.
And we had a ceremony up in theBig Bear area in, oh, shit.
When was that?
I think it was the end of 2022.
We had 64 people in there.
And I was like, this is, this istoo fucking much.
Like, this is way too much foran ayahuasca ceremony.
(34:20):
And it didn't go great.
I mean, thank God, like nobodygot hurt, but it was just, It
was like a fucking war zone anda mental hospital on a
battlefield.
Like it was just too much.
And after that I had to reallypause and be like, what are you
doing?
Like, stop it.
You got 64 people on a mat andyou got 25 people volunteering,
(34:41):
like, like staff, You've gotalmost a hundred people here.
This is too much.
And so after that, I reeled itback in.
So for 2023, we started cappingit at 40, which is still for a
lot of the carriers and a lot ofthe spaces too much.
So now we've drilled it down.
We're doing 12 personceremonies, 25 person
(35:02):
ceremonies.
And then in Utah, that'sprobably the biggest one.
Utah and Southern California,we'll cap it at like 30, 35
people max.
And that, and then reduce thenumber of staff that we've had
because less is more a lot oftimes.
we continue to, adjust and, moveparts around.
But, those were, I think in thebeginning I had very rose
(35:25):
colored glasses.
I was like, I just want to bringthis to the whole world.
I want to, everybody just come.
And the screening wasn't asstringent.
And it was just like, God's gotme, God's got, I'm spiritually,
it's like, no dude you need todo your part.
If you want God and all yourguides and everybody that's
trying to help you to do the,like, make it a little easier
and do your part by being safeand sane.
(35:48):
And so we, we worked withdifferent people on like
developing our screening andtrying to do the best that we
could to, Educate people thatwant to come to ceremony and
also screen people to come toceremony and then also the
protocol for what happens whensomeone has a seizure.
Somebody hits their head.
Somebody has an allergicreaction.
Somebody freaks out.
(36:09):
And those are things that youneed to have a plan in place.
So that when the shit hits thefan, you can actually operate
and do something that'seffective and not harmful.
And, that's something I'm reallypassionate about because I've
seen in ceremonies where likesomeone's having a seizure, like
get the Palo Santo out.
(36:30):
It's like, What the fuck are youdoing?
They're having a seizure or thisis just a spiritual, an
energetic purge.
They're having a fuckingseizure.
Like you have to do something.
Yeah, it could be energeticpurge.
I'm sure it is, but they're alsohaving a fucking seizure.
So we were so grateful to getSteven who was a medic with the
army.
Also he's a a therapist and hereally helped us.
(36:55):
Put these safe practices inplace where we CPR certify
everybody that wants tovolunteer.
We do basic life supporttraining.
There's another one.
Just stuff that's like verypractical so that you have those
tools.
So when those things happen andthen always now having a nurse
and nurse practitioner or amedical doctor at the retreats.
(37:15):
Because one thing you don't wantto do too is, if someone's going
through a process and you're,you can't identify, is this
physical?
Is this spiritual?
Is this, what is this?
And if you just call 911 becauseyou panic and now you've got
somebody hauled off to thehospital in an ayahuasca
process, like what a fuckingnightmare that is.
Who doesn't need medicalattention, they could be totally
(37:37):
harmful.
So you really have to beconfident.
And like When do you administerthe medical aid?
What are the signs that you'relooking for?
And having somebody that'sactually trained in the
practical is, was so beneficialfor us.
And we had, cause we have hadthose scenarios, we have
(37:57):
scenarios, somebody hit theirhead.
Do you have a concussionprotocol?
What do you do?
If someone has a seizure, whatdo you do?
Someone has an allergicreaction.
Do you know how to use anEpiPen?
Do you have an EpiPen?
Do you even know what a fuckingEpiPen is?
Do you know what an allergicreaction is?
So yeah, we had no first aid kitwhen we started.
Our first, we have a whole medbag with oxygen and everything
(38:18):
now.
And granted, it is not commonfor these things to be needed in
a ceremony space.
But when you're running thenumbers like we have and doing
retreats as much as we have,it's, you're going to hit these
scenarios and And people, otherayahuasca groups have seen us
like, yeah, this is our med bagand our protocol.
They're like, what the fuck arethese guys doing?
But it's like, well, when you'redoing ceremonies with over a
(38:39):
thousand people a year, someshit's going to happen, so
that's where I really feel likejust stressing the very
practical stuff.
To people, for them, even fortheir consideration is gonna
help keep things a lot safe andsane for everybody.
And I hope that's a contributionthat we can just give to people
(39:03):
like our screening form.
Open source code.
You wanna screen people you'renot sure.
Go copy ours.
Go on, go take the intake, hitthe intake form link, put in
some bullshit answers and moveon to the next one.
Copy, paste, and or email infoat Hummingbird Church and we'll
send it to you.
If you're, you have waivers,you're like, what do I do to
protect myself?
Dude, email us.
We'll send you the waivers.
(39:23):
Just don't do something like Ihave, there's some groups where
they didn't change the name onit and they're filling it out
and it says like hummingbirdchurch.
No, like be smart about it.
Take your name off of it.
We'll give you the template sothat you can plug and play in
it.
But stuff like that, waivers,liabilities, screening people,
that's all we don't care.
Take it, use it, share it.
If you find something cool andbetter to add to it, send it
(39:44):
back to us with thatinformation.
Like, because none of thosethings were developed or
learned.
It was all hard and it was alltrial and error.
So if we can prevent unnecessarytrial and error of others and
help, secure the safety ofpeople participating in these
entheogenic ceremonies we're allfor it.
So, yeah, so it's just, it'sbeen a lot.
(40:08):
It's been a lot of learning,development.
Increase, I mean that the demandfor these ceremonies is far more
than anything we could evermeet.
We couldn't, like, even if webecame the McDonald's of
ayahuasca, like we stillcouldn't meet that demand.
So people coming into this spacewith integrity and goodwill and
(40:30):
intentions and good stewards ofthe medicine is necessary and
it's needed.
And, we want to help make thatsafe.
That plays safe and foreverybody.
So,
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (40:42):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing all thatand that touched me on multiple
levels because that story arcthat you just went over.
I've been on that story arc.
I followed that, a trajectorylike that going from just being
at a ceremony every otherweekend to the point where I was
helping facilitate doing musicand the whole deal getting to
(41:06):
the point where I was so burntout that the last ceremony that
I facilitated, I was laying onmy mat before we started and it
was, everything was kind ofsettled down and I just lay in
there and just, I stood up and Istarted walking towards my car
and like.
It is a totally unconscious.
(41:28):
Unconscious behavior walkingtowards my car and like, where
am I even going?
Why am I doing this?
And I checked in with my body.
It's like, oh, this is a flightresponse.
Like I want to run away fromthis, like something inside of
me.
Physically.
I'm like.
Okay, I'm not, something is notright here.
(41:51):
And I, that was it.
After that, I was just like,I'm, as you said I was
bypassing.
I was like, I was doing, I wasdrinking so much medicine, doing
so, so many ceremonies.
I didn't have time to do my ownwork.
And to do the integrationthat's, that now we know is
necessary.
And not only is it necessary,it's a crucial key to making
(42:14):
progress.
I was just, I thought if I, themore ceremonies I did, the
better I was going to be.
Without doing the work myselfand yeah, I got so completely
burnt out that like, I almostjust ran down the road to get
away from the ceremony at thatpoint in time.
(42:34):
And it was like, yeah, that's, Ijust, I psychologically,
physically cannot do thisanymore in my heart.
On some level, I knew.
That there was people that werebenefiting from what I was
doing, but I was not benefitingfrom what I was doing.
And like you mentioned, like Iwas.
It was having a negative impacton my life.
(42:55):
And I'm really glad that youtouched on the aspect about
energy exchange.
there's nothing spiritual aboutpoverty.
There just isn't.
And you mentioned that there'sthe societal programming around
that and I.
Live that firsthand.
And I had this whole couple ofyears of trying to figure out
thinking about worth, likewhat's like, what's it, what
(43:18):
does it mean to, to have anenergy exchange for like, what
is my time worth?
What is my.
my.
Expertise or my, my, myknowledge and my skillset,
what's that worth?
And like, am I willing to acceptless than a poverty wage to do
really skilled, hard, verydemanding on multiple levels
(43:41):
kind of work, and you just can'tdo that forever.
That's a recipe for disaster.
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024 (43:47):
You can't,
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (43:48):
I'm really glad that you brought
that up and there's, yeah,
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (43:52):
so many facilitators in this space
are completely taken advantageof.
Like, it's, it's insane.
Like, oh, you wanna show up andbe part of this.
Okay.
Well, you're paying to travel.
You're there.
You're away from your job, yourfamily.
You're responsible.
We need a dog sitter or kidsthere or whatever, someone to
water your lawn.
They have all these expenses andstuff that they're, and they
(44:15):
want to help.
And then they have this beliefthat, okay, I just need to do
this like for free and helping.
And there's time.
Yeah.
When you can give for free andit doesn't hurt you for sure.
But when you've got people thatare, a standard part of your
ceremony or doing things foryou, you've got to compensate
them.
And I've.
We, we pay facilitate, we havevolunteers, but we pay our
(44:37):
facilitators.
And that was something thatreally wasn't well received by
the community.
Like we would, in the beginning,we didn't have a lot, but like
we, when we were under, Hey,Ian, can you come do music?
Can you come help with this?
Like, borrowing from thesedifferent communities.
And like, when we would Youknow, bring somebody from
another community and we paythem.
(44:57):
They'd be like, Oh shit, you'repaying me.
Or you're buying my airfareticket.
You're paying for my check bag.
Like, no, I've been doing thisat my own expense and financial
detriment.
I'm like, what, but you'rehelping like.
And then other organizers andpeople would be like, why are
you paying for their stuff?
You don't need to pay.
Everybody should be here as asacred volunteer.
(45:18):
Well, that person's making moneylike shit.
Who the fuck are you fooling?
And I've seen so many greatfacilitators be completely taken
advantage of or volunteer,whatever you want to call it.
I know people sometimes callfacilitators people serving the
medicine.
That's not who I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about the personthat takes you to the bathroom
and has a conversation with you.
Or help set up and do thesethings or plan an activity or
(45:40):
lead integration where a lot ofthe people that are organizing,
like in my position, think thatthose aren't skills you should
pay anybody for it.
That they should just be happyto be part of the community.
And then you run throughfacilitators, you're constantly
recycling people because you'reburning them out because you're
not doing an adequate energyexchange with them or supporting
the services that person'soffering, if they have a
(46:00):
business, like, or so like, Imean, for church, it's like a
bizarre things that are for salethat people bring.
I don't take a cut of it.
Why would I take a cut of whatpeople are selling?
Or if someone does integrationservices, I don't expect a cut.
Like this is supporting ourcommunity.
And that's something that like,I feel really passionate about,
(46:24):
people need to be paid andappreciated.
And.
Given opportunities and in a lotof communities, they just don't
value.
There's a lot of turn and burnof people.
I mean, you're going to have toturn and burn naturally because
people are going through suchintense processes and growth.
And you do, I'm an advocate ofstepping the fuck away from this
at times.
Like you have to step away.
I step away.
You won't see me in ceremony forthree months because I'm doing
(46:45):
work.
I'm spending time with my childand I'm being a human fucking
being.
And you've got to step away andtake breaks.
But if you're not properlytaking care of your people,
financially, energetically,you're going to lose them and
you're just going to have thisconstant burnout of people.
And it's so sad and, um, it's.
(47:07):
And then these people are doingit with their heart.
So they're like, I don't think Ishould pay, but then they're
financially fucking themselvestoo.
And It's sad that it gets downto that.
But I imagine like regularchurches have that problem too,
part of our healing process isbeing able to, Say what we need.
What do you need?
What are you?
And find value in yourself andwalk away if someone's not
(47:30):
willing to compensate you or dothat exchange with you.
Just, okay, cool.
You're, you don't think I'mworth it.
Right on whatever.
And not take it personally orlet it destroy you, but to move
on, and hold your value.
So we definitely.
I had it for myself with, Oh,I'm getting, getting the
compensation for taking thefinancial risk and not going
(47:52):
into poverty.
But then also, with the peoplebringing on to be able to pay
them.
So it's all part of it.
Everybody needs to get, and thisis such a highly skilled niche.
Like, if you find somebodythat's good at helping people in
this space, why would you everlet them go?
I'm like, it's blood in, bloodout.
Gang, gang over here.
Like, If there's a problem, talkto me about it.
(48:15):
Like, let's figure out what'sgoing on.
Is it a break?
Is it financial?
Is it appreci?
Is it just needing appreciation?
Is it burnout?
Like, because these people areso special that are in this
space that actually.
Can help navigate it for otherpeople, especially when you have
this just hordes of peoplewanting to come and have these
experiences now to be able tohave these guardians and guides
(48:38):
that can help you like, don'tburn them out.
Don't treat them like shit andsupport them.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (48:43):
yeah, I think that's super important
and something that's not talkedabout enough, quite frankly, and
I understand why certainindividuals, people leading the
ceremony sometimes people whoare responsible for the
financial aspect, why.
Why they don't want to talkabout paying people or the real
life circumstances of thefacilitators who, who come in.
(49:05):
And like you said, they arehighly skilled.
Now, people who are good atholding space and facilitating
in those kinds of ceremonies,especially if they're larger
group ceremonies, you just, youdon't just find those people and
those people aren't just in somesense.
Yeah.
They're born with certain innateabilities and to be.
(49:25):
Come skilled and to develop anysort of vocation or skill to a
degree where it's reallyvaluable.
It requires a lot of work andpractice.
And I know you and me, we bothkind of went through that period
of time where we were, I wasdriving four hours one way to a
(49:46):
ceremony and then four hoursback on the Monday morning.
And just, I wasn't getting paidAnd I was contributing in a
meaningful way.
And I know you were there too.
We're putting a lot into it,like our heart and soul.
And, I believe that everythinghappens for a reason.
And I'm really grateful for allof the experiences that I've
had, even the crazy, challengingones, the.
(50:09):
The dangerous ones, the onesthat were just fucked up beyond
all belief.
It's like, those areopportunities to learn and grow.
And the crazier the experience,the greater the opportunity, the
more, the bigger, the challenge,the.
The more it pulls out of you tobe able to overcome that
(50:32):
challenge.
So on one hand, I'm, I wouldn'tchange a thing.
I'm super grateful for all ofthe challenges, all the hard
times, all the stuff thathappened.
And.
And I see that was part of myjourney.
I needed to go through that to,to get to where I am today, to
learn about self worth and tolearn about what's right.
And, what's, what resonates withme, not necessarily right, but
(50:53):
like what resonates with me andwhat I see as really benefiting
people and, I think it's, Whenyou're in it, it's hard to have
a proper perspective becauseyou're so close to it, and if
you're doing it all the time,you're so close to it, your
relationship with the medicinecan start to, or relationship
(51:15):
with the ceremony, relationshipwith the organization, Can start
to shift over time and you don'teven realize it because it's
always in your face.
You're you can't, you haven'tbeen able to make enough space
from it to look at itobjectively.
I mean, I can say that formyself over time, like the, with
the spiritual bypassing, like Myrelationship with ayahuasca, it
(51:37):
shifted over time to arelationship of codependency.
And it wasn't like that in thebeginning.
It was, it felt very equitableand it felt like there was a
give and take and I would leavethe ceremony and I would feel
like my cup was overflowing.
Over time, my cup was empty moreoften than not.
And, I, and I didn't realize itbecause I was, I didn't have the
(52:01):
distance.
I didn't take time off to havethat perspective, to be able to
look at it objectively and,human beings are so adaptable,
like we can get used toanything, The craziest, most.
gnarly stuff, like abuse,whatever it is for one person.
Like if you grew up in that, orif it's just been your everyday
(52:24):
life for a period of time,people get used to anything so
you can.
You can have that slide.
You can have that shift yourgood intentions from can go from
a healing process to actually aprocess.
That's, as you said, stuntingyour growth and holding you
back.
It can go from your set of wingsto your ball and chain over
(52:45):
time.
And.
And I think what you said abouttaking the regular breaks, just
taking three months off to, toput your feet on the ground and
be a human being.
I think that is, is soimportant.
And I would really, people whoare facilitating or in that role
or.
Moving in that direction, Iwould really, knowing what I
(53:09):
know now, if I'm working with anorganization and they don't
emphasize that, or don'tencourage that of their staff or
their, that's not a part of theethos of the leadership of.
Intentionally taking time awayto, to do their own work and to
do their homework like that tome is as a red flag and
something that I'm now am veryconsciously aware of when
(53:32):
thinking about working withdifferent groups and when
interacting with people who areholding the medicine or
facilitating or whatever youwant to call it.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (53:41):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, I just did my ownjourney on this.
Like I, I just was guns ablazing.
Like I'm just naturally afucking maniac and I'm just like
go.
And I found myself like, itwasn't until like.
Maybe like May like was made twomonths ago three months ago
(54:04):
where I had a huge wake up callI mean I had been in the space
and I'm not trying to sound likemotherfucking Teresa or like a
martyr or Anything because it'snot like that.
It's not like oh, I'm such agood person because I put myself
last.
It's not at all There's not likea value thing It's just what
fucking happened is that I wasso focused on these ceremonies
making this happen the healingthe healing the healing the
(54:24):
healing and I gained a hundredfucking pounds, and I'm like,
what do I feel like shit all thetime?
Why, what have circle bags undermy eyes?
Why don't I have the energy toplay with my kid?
Like.
What's going on with me, and Ihad a, I was actually a mushroom
ceremony.
It's a sacrilege that I went toa mushroom ceremony and had a
breakthrough, but I had toremove myself because of the
(54:45):
relationship I developed withayahuasca and with Tita Pedro
and helping other people too.
I can't really go into, I can'tget healing from my own.
I went to Peru to go toNimiakaya to like, go do that.
And then, and that helped, twoyears ago.
And then I went to this mushroomceremony.
That were some of thefacilitators at Hummingbird
(55:06):
Church that they did.
And it rocked my world.
And I had a total breakthroughthere.
And, a big message was like,you've got to take care of
yourself.
You can't do shit if you don'ttake care of yourself
physically, mentally.
Mainly physically, like if youand so I left there and I went
to my doctor and I lied abouthaving all these symptoms.
I mean, I had a shit ton of likeshitty symptoms anyways, but I
(55:29):
made up a slew of symptoms so Icould get every blood test
covered by my insurance possibleand do all these tests.
And I got a really like rudeawakening about the status of my
health and But I was in a spotwhere I was like, okay, I can
change this.
Like these things are, thankGod, like these things are
(55:50):
reversible.
I can eat better.
I can sleep.
I found I had sleep apnea and Iwasn't sleeping and that was
part of the stress and I hadhigh blood pressure and.
I had like crystals in my peethat were going to turn into a
kidney stone if I didn't stopfucking drinking soda and shit.
I was running on three to fourRed Bulls a day.
Plus sometimes being like, Ican't relax.
(56:12):
I'm so wound up.
I'm dealing with all this shit.
Like I'm going to go relax withbeer.
Like it just became thiscompletely unhealthy lifestyle
while doing all this work withplant medicine.
It doesn't make you immune toany of this shit and the, but
the ways to do with it, becauseI was, Pouring from an empty
cup.
I was completely drained afterthese ceremonies.
I'd want to be face down in abed for three fucking days,
(56:34):
going through some littleminiature existential crises in
the same clothes, displayingevery symptom of severe
depression for days to recoverfrom a fucking healing ceremony.
And it, and I had to step awayand I haven't been at a retreat
for months because I needed to,or I went to Missouri, but I
(56:55):
just did the cooking inMissouri.
I didn't do anything, like Ijust was like, Oh, I'll do the
cooking.
My family's here.
And I did the cooking cause Iliked doing the cooking.
So I really had to step away andstart focusing on my health and,
was able to like, okay, now thelast 40 pounds.
I'm not eating like shit.
I'm not wanting to poison myselfwith shitty ass food.
(57:17):
I drank a fucking Red Bull lastweek and it turned into a
spiritual emergency.
Like, I'm like, and I was onthree or four of these
motherfuckers a day! Like, I hada coffee yesterday and I was
like, Oh God.
And that was all I was runningon for years, like to keep up
with my life, my job, theayahuasca retreats, and I wasn't
(57:37):
taking care of myself.
And like right now, the priorityhas been taking care of myself
physically.
and making sure I'm good andbeing sober.
Like what a gift sobriety is.
Like, if you don't know what todo with yourself, stop doing
like, stop doing shit.
Be sober.
Like just fucking be sober.
No beer, no fucking weed.
(57:59):
Like no California sober, likeget the weed, get the caffeine,
get the fucking beer, get thefast food, get the shit.
All that is, get the fuckingNetflix out, get the internet
out, get the going on tinder andfucking everything out.
Like stop, just be sober, bepresent.
It's the best gift you can giveyourself and then your brain
stops rattling around like afucking ping pong ball in your
(58:19):
head and you can actually have achance of figuring your shit out
and who you are and what youwant to do.
Like it's just such a blessingin it.
And I feel like the world'sdumbest motherfucker because I'm
doing all this work.
I drank over in 200 ayahuascaceremonies.
I can't, I probably drank 5, 000feet of fucking cactus and I
don't know how many pounds ofmushrooms and smoked how much
(58:42):
DMT and bufo and I don't, andit's like to miss the things
that are so simple.
And that's really what theseentheogens bring you back to.
Walk your dog.
Go outside.
Nature's the greatestintegrator.
Don't eat shitty food.
Don't drink fucking Red Bulls.
Don't be, don't deal with yourstress.
Don't reward yourself with beerand weed.
(59:03):
Like, so, stop it.
Stop putting Ugh, all thesestrangers bodies in your body,
like, like, stop jerking offfive fucking times a day to
porn, like, all these things areso normal in our society, like,
they're not normal, they'rereally not fucking normal at
all, and they control you, andwhen you get sober and you stop
(59:23):
doing these destructivebehaviors, that mental clarity
that you get.
And the chance of everythingactually fucking being okay just
goes up through the charts.
So I am so grateful that, Imean, it's like been since May,
but like I just the thought oflike drinking a beer or doing
anything like wicks me out.
(59:45):
And now I feel like I can reallydo the work that I wasn't doing
for seven fucking years in thisspace.
Like, and it's just reallyimportant.
It's really, the space doesn'tmake you immune.
To any of like, this shit.
It actually makes you like, moresusceptible to it.
So, it's, you gotta do the work.
(01:00:05):
You gotta take care of yourself.
You gotta take care of yourselffirst.
It's not selfish.
It doesn't make you a bad personto take care of yourself.
Like, you have to take care ofyourself first.
And, this is a space where it'sreally easy not to do so.
To lose yourself in it.
To become ungrounded.
These entheogens, bring youback, put you out in outer space
and if you don't have a goodconnection, you're not grounded,
(01:00:27):
you're going to float around inspace and maybe float around
until somebody throws you in amental hospital or tell you're
sleeping on people's couchesbecause you can't function.
Like you gotta take care ofyourself.
That's the most important thingin this space.
Don't take care of yourselfphysically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually,financially, like.
(01:00:49):
Otherwise you will not have anykind of longevity in this space
and thoughts and prayers, causeyou'll end up in a mental
hospital, a real hospital, likea hospital or a fucking jail
cell.
Like that's, and I've seen somany, I don't even know how many
people since I've been in thisspace that, Oh, that person
died.
That person's not there.
Oh, what happened to them?
Like, because they don't,they're not taking care of
(01:01:11):
themselves.
They're not grounding.
And it's, you can't work in afucking nuclear power plant
every day and not wear,protective suits.
Suit like it's the same kind ofthing.
And so many of us, because thisisn't something you go to school
for, and it's so new and it'sjust adapting to this different
thing in America, like like youwouldn't jump, you wouldn't be
(01:01:32):
like, I want to pilot a seven47.
But fuck going to school for it.
Fuck learning how to like fly.
I'm just going to jump behindit.
And that's what a lot of peopledo in this space, whether
they're serving the medicine orthey're jumping in to like help
facilitate the ceremony.
It's like, well, yeah you'repiling a 747 and you know what
the fuck you're doing.
And then, Oh yeah, he crashedit.
So even with all these lessonsand stuff, there's still so many
(01:01:54):
simple ones that I'm missing outon and learning every fucking
day.
And, Yeah.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717 (01:02:00):
I very much appreciate your
honesty and you've always beenfor as long as I've known you,
you always just say what's onyour mind and speak whatever
comes up there.
For me, there's never been anydoubt that was actually what was
on your mind.
I so appreciate your opennessand your willingness to share
with what your experience is,because I know it's not
(01:02:21):
glamorous.
Like the things that you sharethere's a lot of.
Ugliness and being honest withourselves.
Something that you mentionedearlier that I, that really kind
of pinged with me.
You have to be honest withyourself and drinking the
medicine and continuing to haveecstatic experiences or these
peak experiences that can leaveyou ungrounded.
(01:02:45):
And when you're not grounded,like your perspective is just,
it's just harder to trust.
Like on one hand, yeah, it opensyou up to a whole nother realm
of existence and experience.
And on the other hand, the 3dreality, things get a little bit
slippery.
And it's, it gets harder totrust your own judgment, quite
(01:03:06):
frankly, it becomes suspect.
And that was, that's myexperience.
And that is what I see with, andhave seen with people who are
doing a lot of medicine work andnot taking the breaks
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (01:03:17):
Yeah.
You can become inverted You justbecome totally inverted and in
this world that we're cominginto where we don't know what
the fuck is real, there's deepfakes and scammers and all this
bullshit.
Like you don't know what's realor fake anymore is you don't
have yourself to trust.
(01:03:37):
Fuck all.
You're gone, dude.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (01:03:40):
lost.
courtney-close_1_08-21-2 (01:03:40):
You're lost.
Like you, you have to all, andwe've turned off so many of our
internal alarms because of ourtrauma and society and shit
we're in.
Like, you need to get yourinternal alarm system back up to
where you don't, you trust your,like most of us walk around and
we don't trust ourselves.
Like, like, I know somebody toldme this guy looked shady, but I
(01:04:03):
still got in the car with himanyways.
Or I didn't want to do it, but Idid it because people told me
like, it's just normal.
It's just a norm.
And it's the only way tonavigate this new world with
this technology and AI andpeople's bullshit and people not
being authentic anymore isyou've got to be good with you.
(01:04:24):
And you gotta be able to listento that voice in yourself.
Because that's, what's going tonavigate what's right for you
and when you're ungrounded andit's so sad, cause I mean, I've
had it happen to me and I'vewatched it with many people in
this space, like just completelydetached from reality and start
even attacking and not lookingin the mirror.
(01:04:51):
They're just completely invertedfrom being ungrounded so much.
And it's not a good spot to bein.
And it's really fucking hard toget yourself out of that mess.
And the last thing you need todo.
There's any more plant medicinewhen you're in that space.
You need to chop wood, carryfucking water and call your mom,
(01:05:12):
dude.
Like, that's a, that unglamorouspart of it.
Eat a vegetable, dude.
Oh yeah.
Mhm.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16171 (01:05:20):
Do your homework and yeah, be
honest with yourself.
And like I said, the honestypart, it's not so easy when
you're doing ceremonies all thetime, because the, especially if
you're in a, like a leadershiprole or facilitating, because
the feedback you're getting fromthe people around you is usually
pretty great.
And it, it can throw yourperspective, it can give you a
(01:05:40):
different perspective.
If people are always telling youhow awesome you are at healing
or, whatever your thing is, likehow their life has changed
because of, because you sneezedin the ceremony, it's like
removing yourself from thatenvironment and being sober.
I mean, I've done in the lasttwo years, I've done one
(01:06:02):
ceremony and have been verysober.
For the majority of the time andit's been, and I'm still
processing the prior five toseven years of doing all that
work two years.
And I'm still like, I'm stilllike, I'm moving back in that
direction.
The pendulum is starting to finda, like a center point where
(01:06:26):
there's a balance, but man,it's, it takes time.
And sobriety is, as you said,such a gift, such a beautiful
experience.
If you can't, if you can't begood with yourself, sober, like
good luck with doing moreceremonies or doing this or
doing that, if you can't be goodwith yourself, sober and content
and look at yourself in themirror and smile at yourself and
(01:06:49):
feel good about just being like,that's, that should be a good
barometer.
And yeah.
And if you don't trust, as yousaid, that inner voice and you
can't trust your own intuition.
Then you're not going to be ableto trust anybody and you're
going to be reactive to everysituation in life rather than
being proactive and being ableto move in the direction that
you're being called to move in.
(01:07:09):
That's going to bring out thebest and highest version of
yourself.
So, that's such a beautifulmessage to come from, the person
who I look up to and know asCourtney facilitates a lot of
ceremonies, organizes a lot ofplant medicine to, to come to
that point, I think is reallybeautiful and a testament to
both of our growth.
(01:07:30):
And it's been a real pleasureto, to have known you way back
then, and to have been able towitness the evolution of what
you're doing in your work.
And I remember the first thing,the very first post about
Hummingbird Church, I think Isent you a message.
I was like, Yeah, rock on.
That's cool.
I'm glad that you're pursuingthat and you're organizing it in
a, yeah, organizing it and beingopen with it and standing up for
(01:07:52):
what you believe in.
I've always really appreciatedyour honesty and your
willingness to step out and justbe open.
Be your bad self.
So, with that, I think that's a,this is a good place to start to
land the plane.
But but yeah, I'd love to hearif there's anything else that
you'd like to any parting words,any, anything that's present
with you now and.
Any, any websites or anythingthat you'd like to promote and
(01:08:15):
get out there so that people canconnect with you and see if they
vibe with what you're doing.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (01:08:18):
Yeah.
So, our website ishummingbirdchurch.
com.
We have all of our events thatare open to the public on our
event page.
When people want to come toceremony, we don't have them pay
and then vet them.
That's no, you have to getvetted first.
So you need to fill out anintake form.
And if we, so it's safe for you.
Don't think that if you hearayahuasca isn't safe for you
(01:08:41):
because of some condition thatyou have.
Call us.
Well, text us.
Don't call us.
We won't pick up the fuckingphone, but text us and then
we'll set up a time for a callor email us at info at
hummingbirdchurch.
com.
And we'll discuss those, withyou.
But don't put your life at riskto do this.
There's lots of other beautifulways to heal yourself.
This isn't the pinnacle of it.
It's not the top of the pyramid.
(01:09:02):
It's not for the spirituallyelite.
It is just one of the many toolsthat God has given us to help us
heal and be better humans.
So if it's, if you can't doayahuasca, don't be bummed out.
There's a million other ways toheal and lots of other beautiful
things to do, but don't put yourlife at risk to do this and do
your research.
Somebody this is so sad thisweek, somebody was saying there
(01:09:23):
was a hummingbird churchceremonies in Montana and they
scammed a bunch of people for500 and it's all over Reddit.
It was not us.
We didn't do it.
We contact, we looked at theprofiles.
They're all from Nigeria.
And, um, people are so, there'ssuch an appetite for these
ceremonies that people putthemselves in situations that
are unsafe or where they can betaken advantage of.
Do your research.
(01:09:43):
It's not like Hummingbird Churchis the only place I think is
safe to do it.
We're actually starting tonight.
I have a meeting to do ourFriends of Hummingbird church,
safe places, website, wherepeople that do these other
ceremonies or our integrationcoaches or offer services we're
going to build that out and thenstart collecting everybody's
information to put it on there.
And those are people that we canrecommend to you as an
(01:10:04):
organization is being safe andsane and best to practice.
So do your research, talk topeople.
If you don't know where tostart, go on Reddit and start
asking questions, and people aregoing to give you the good and
the bad and their opinions aboutthings, but.
That's better than just Shootingyour soul into the fucking wind,
you know, and this isn't justthis is your body your mind your
(01:10:27):
soul You're just everything thatyou're giving to these people to
you know Look over for you andsome of them aren't the best
players.
So Research talk to people don'tjust Give someone a deposit from
Instagram.
You need to be vetted.
You should be filling out forms.
You should be havingcommunication with these
(01:10:48):
organizations So do yourresearch?
Be safe and sane.
Don't do this if it's not safefor you.
Don't lie about your conditionsbecause you don't want to miss
out And realize you still,there's no shortcut in life.
Ayahuasca is not a shortcut.
Shrooms aren't a shortcut.
Pufa is not a shortcut.
It is an amazing tool that canbe the catalyst for some real
(01:11:09):
growth and change.
But you really need to have sometools under your belt, and some
coping mechanisms, and, somesobriety if you can.
If sobriety is what you'reworking on, okay, but make that
a goal.
To be able to handle it andintegrate.
Otherwise you're going to wasteyour time, your money, and
possibly put your sanity atrisk.
So be safe about it and do yourhomework.
(01:11:31):
And don't be bummed out if it'snot for you.
You can still be part of thesecommunities.
There's so many, there's so muchstuff you can do.
There's so many amazing thingsand amazing people.
And don't give up.
Don't give up.
Don't, if you went to anayahuasca ceremony and didn't
work for you and don't give up,don't give up on your healing
because it's, you'll get there.
(01:11:53):
And the only way to get there isto keep trying.
Like you, you just keep trying,keep focused, keep the faith
that You can get through it.
And the saying that we don'theal so that we can experience
more pain.
We heal so we can experiencejoy.
And I can tell you personally,my life has gotten just so much
(01:12:13):
better than I could have everwished for, demanded, or wanted
it to be.
I'm not saying it's perfect.
Like it fucking sucks some days,but it's not just the, my
capacity for joy and my hope inhumanity.
Like.
It's just beyond, beyond whatI've ever even wished for before
my healing began.
So just stay with it.
(01:12:33):
It's hard and it fucking sucks,but it's always worth it.
So stay at it.
Don't give up.
Being sad, having days where youcry, you don't wash your ass,
your relationship falls apart,you fucking hit somebody
whatever you do, those arenormal.
Those are normal and it's allpart of the process, but hang in
there and keep at it and you'll.
(01:12:54):
All of a sudden one day you'lljust realize you're in a lot
better fucking spot than youwere so that's all I got
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (01:13:01):
Mic drop.
That was a beautiful way to endit.
Yes, everyone out there, you gotthis.
And yeah, I can't say any more.
That was beautiful.
Thank you so much, Courtney.
And I'm sure people will get alot out of this.
You're a gem of a human and I'msuper blessed to have met you.
And yeah keep being your badself.
the last time I saw you Joshua tree.
We were underground gettingkicked out of every fucking
Airbnb in Joshua tree whensomebody checked the security
cameras, saw people vomiting.
And that was so stressful.
And that was a big part of like,Oh my God, I can't do this in
the shadows anymore.
we had an underground ceremonywhere not just like one cop
(00:20):
showed up, like the whole squadshowed up, we had a helicopter
and county SWAT and guns andeverything.
And I was like, fuck this.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (00:30):
You can have that shift your good
intentions from can go from ahealing process to actually a
process.
That's, as you said, stuntingyour growth and holding you
back.
It can go from your set of wingsto your ball and chain
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD C (00:47):
Welcome to another episode of the
complete retreat podcast wherewe talk to retreat creators and
industry experts About what ittakes to create a thriving
retreat business Today, my guestis courtney close who's the
founder of hummingbird church Asfar as I can tell, Hummingbird
Church is one of the largest,above ground, and publicly
visible ayahuasca churches inthe country.
(01:09):
Courtney shares a ton ofvaluable information in this
episode talking about how shewent from organizing a handful
of underground retreats everyonce in a while to the point
where she is now organizingmultiple retreats in multiple
states across the country.
I've known Courtney for severalyears going even before the
inception of Hummingbird Churchso it's been really amazing to
(01:32):
see her progress in this amountof time.
And I really value her focus andthe focus of Hummingbird Church
on safety, and the fact thatthey work with indigenous
medicine carriers from differentlineages.
I think that's super importantand super cool.
In this conversation, we touchon a handful of important
topics, including money inceremonies, which a lot of
(01:55):
people don't like to think aboutor talk about, but it's a real
thing, and facilitator burnout.
What that looks like and theresults of that, what can happen
when people don't take time awayfrom facilitation work in plant
medicine ceremonies.
So, yeah, stick around to theend.
This is a great conversation.
I think you're really going tolove it.
courtney-close_1_08-21-202 (02:14):
hey, how are you doing?
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (02:16):
I'm doing really well.
It's great to talk to you.
It's been a hot minute sincewe've.
Communicated and had aconversation and I know a lot's
come up for you and a lot oftime has passed.
So, hey, I'd love to hear alittle bit about where you're at
now since we last spoke and Ilast saw you and what's exciting
for you.
And I guess that's a good placeto start.
(02:38):
What's exciting in your worldright now?
And what do you, what are youjazzed about?
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (02:42):
So right now I'm really excited
about working with thesedifferent lineages.
Hummingbird Church, we primarilyjust worked with Taita Pedro and
the Kamsas.
And we've been doing that forabout five years.
Like two years underground andalmost four years as a church.
And the demand for ceremoniesjust kept increasing and
(03:03):
increasing.
It was typically, something thatwe were just going to do a few
times a year in SouthernCalifornia.
And then Southern Californiaturned into Utah and Oregon and
Missouri and Hawaii.
And and 30 different retreatsand, It was a lot.
It was a lot, a lot.
(03:24):
And then this year I tried toslow it down, but the demand is
like, it's a lot.
There's tons of people that wantto come, to retreats and
ceremonies and are looking for asafe place to experience the
medicine.
So we ended up adding a littlebit more trying to simplify
things to make it easier on theteam, like putting retreat
leaders there.
So I'm not at every single one.
(03:46):
And also now trying to likeoffer different experiences.
We, talk to people in ourcommunity and a lot of them
don't want to, or have the timeto do like a full retreat that
I've already set.
They just want to go for onenight.
So now we're starting to dothat.
And.
People are curious about sittingwith the different lineages and
they want to be able to go downto the jungle with a group.
(04:09):
So we've started doing groupsdown to Columbia and down to the
Brazilian Amazon.
So for next year, we're tryingto get everything ready to where
we can start leading thosegroups.
Tours down there and then alsopreparing everything for these
different lineages that we'reworking with.
And the first one we have comingup is in October.
(04:29):
We're bringing in Haru and HiraKuntanawa to lead a retreat with
us.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
It's totally different than, howwe've, Been experiencing the
medicine like the Brazilianceremonies, there's dancing.
There's movement.
There's a lot of music and theygo until the sun goes up.
(04:49):
And.
So it's a bit of likeadjustment, but we're really
trying to keep in there, likethe core principles and
practices that we've always doneto keep people safe and the same
facilitators the same group, butjust creating a space for these
different lineages and learningabout what they have to offer
(05:10):
and their knowledge and theirexperience.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
That's going to be our first onein October.
And then The Hona and AnaeYawanawa are coming up and we're
going to do a Utah one with themand a Southern California with
them and then a meeting next,not next, we're going to have
the following weekend with TaitaLuis and Maria Abuela Maria, and
(05:34):
then in two weeks with TaitaGladino.
to talk about planning out 2025.
So 2025, we want to do multiplestates, Hawaii, California,
Utah, Oregon Texas, and Missouriset up teams in each state so
that we're not traveling asmuch.
(05:54):
And then when these indigenousmedicine carriers come to do
their tours in the U S we'rebooking them.
And, working with othercommunities as well, because
other communities bring upreally great, amazing carriers
of the medicine and.
We want to, create safe placesfor these people to work and
then also create work for them.
(06:15):
There's nothing but abundance inthis area and there's no reason
for anybody to feel like there'scompetition or insecurity or
anything like that.
So I really want to partner morewith the different communities
with people that are like, Ihave this amazing, Medicine
carrier, and maybe they're notsure how to market it or how to
(06:35):
do a ceremony or what they needto do to legally protect
themselves.
Or even, visit the physicalsafety part.
And that's something that I feellike we've learned so much about
that in the last few years anddoing as many retreats as we
have.
So I'm not saying every scenariohas happened.
Lord God, I hope it has, but somany of them have, and we've
(06:56):
learned so much and documentedso much and had really great
people to help us put the legalstuff together and the safety
protocols together and thelesson learned.
And I want to share thatinformation with people, whether
you're part of HummingbirdChurch or not.
Just to me, that's open sourcecode.
It's not like we have a formulato follow, or we all went to
(07:19):
college for this and trained forthis.
I mean, this is a really insanething to do.
Like you're in a gray area ofthe law.
You have adults mostly workingthrough trauma on.
The world's, one of the world'sstrongest entheogens and you're
bringing up these indigenouspeople from South America and
you're trying to honor theirtradition, but also adapt it so
(07:40):
that it works in America andit's.
So much, it's so heavy.
It's so much, it's such afucking mess, but it's
absolutely beautiful.
And I, I don't feel anyattachment to like hoarding that
information or keeping it allfor me.
Like I, I want to share it withpeople.
And so I'm putting together somedifferent documents and
(08:01):
workshops and things that we cando.
To help other entheogenic churchleaders, or even people that are
doing psychedelic retreats,because I really believe, yeah,
there's like some bad actors andnefarious people in the space
but overall people have reallygood intentions.
And I had really good intentionswhen I came into this space, but
there was so much that I wasignorant to, and so many things
(08:25):
that, by the grace of God, likecould have gone wrong that
didn't.
And I know that a lot of peopleare coming into this space with
like, they had a life changingexperience or they had just,
they believe in this work andthey want to honor it, but you
don't know what you don't know.
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courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (09:41):
So I really want to focus in 2025
and getting that information outto people that want to do this
sincerely and safely.
So that, our hard lessonslearned can hopefully make it a
little easier for someone elseand keep everybody as safe as
possible and also make this worklook like less of a joke to
(10:04):
people that think we're just,doing drugs or being a bunch of
stupid hippies and to really Youknow, honor and respect and
create safe places for theseindigenous medicine carriers to,
to do the best work that theycan do.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (10:18):
Well, that's beautiful.
And I, my personal belief isthat we're Moving into an era
where, like you said, the sourcecode information is going to be
more and more available, wherein the past it used to be siloed
and people used to be able tokeep it close to their chest and
not be able to share or not wantto share, I believe the energy
(10:39):
of the planet is just movingmore into a kind of a communal
sort of, Vibe, and that's, withcryptocurrency and, entheogens
being decriminalized, that'sjust on multiple levels and
different systems, the economicsystems, the educational
systems, the governmentalsystems that things are going to
be more Open and available andaccessible and just information
(11:03):
in general.
So that's really cool and soundslike you're planning to ride
that wave into the future and Iget a really strong sense that's
going to be a very fruitful wayto interact with the medicine
and being inclusive.
with the different indigenouscommunities while honoring their
specific traditions.
(11:23):
So that's super rad.
And I was thinking about it.
And the last time I saw you, I'mpretty sure it was the first
weekend of August in 2001.
So, or 2000.
it was the first weekend inAugust of 2001.
Of 2020.
So it was after COVID, yeah, thefirst weekend in August of 2020.
(11:47):
So the summer, the tail end ofthe summer after COVID, well,
COVID was still a thing then.
And Hummingbird Church wasn't,if I recall correctly, it wasn't
established at that point.
So I'm curious to hear.
I'm curious to hear about, that,that journey going from, as you
(12:08):
said the underground toestablishing the church, maybe a
little bit about what thatprovides and the benefits of
that, because I know noteverybody has done that.
And kind of the growth andevolution of Hummingbird Church
from, I think, yeah when I waswith you, it was maybe just the
seed planted in the mind.
And now it's a, it's a thing,it's going, the train is on the
(12:29):
tracks and it's moving forward.
So I'd love to hear about that
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (12:33):
Yeah.
And all that was superunintentional.
so yeah, for the last time I sawyou Joshua tree.
We were underground gettingkicked out of every fucking
Airbnb in Joshua tree whensomebody checked the security
cameras, saw people vomiting.
And that was so stressful.
And that was a big part of like,Oh my God, I can't do this in
(12:53):
the shadows anymore.
I don't, I really sincerelydidn't believe that we were
doing anything wrong and to runaround like rats and like get
kicked out of Airbnbs and havejust so much chaos, it goes.
Along with like being in theshadows and I right after that
one.
I was like, I can't fucking dothis anymore Or that was running
(13:14):
Springs.
Yeah that running Springs wasthe last time I was like, I
can't do this anymore This islike just so ridiculous and I
actually right after that onecalled it quits.
I was like, I'm done Like I,cause I drink so much medicine
and I was like, I just want mynormal life.
I want to walk my dog.
I want to like, hang out with mykid.
I don't want to deal with allthis.
(13:35):
I don't want to like be lookingover my shoulder.
Am I going to get arrested?
Or, I just didn't, I wasn't eveneducated on the laws at that
point.
And then I took a break and afriend of mine was like, from
Texas was like, I really want todrink ayahuasca.
Will you go with me to aceremony in Florida?
And it was COVID, still takingplace and airfare was still
(13:57):
super cheap.
So I think it was like 39 bucksto fly from LAX to Tampa.
And I was like, okay, this willbe the last time I drink
medicine.
I'm absolutely done.
And I drank the medicine and itjust, I fell in love with it all
over again and had this amazingceremony and I was like It was
just the message from thatsermon is like, you aren't doing
(14:19):
anything wrong.
And so how do you bring this tothe people that need it the
most?
Because with the undergroundceremonies, like you had to know
somebody, you had to get inthere.
There was no opportunity forscholarship.
It was like, you just showed upand.
gave the shaman your money andhoped we didn't get kicked out
of the Airbnb before theceremony was over.
There was no retreat.
(14:40):
There was no like food.
There was no activities.
There was no breath where it wasjust, you showed up and gave a
dude your money and went home.
And after that ceremony, I feltlike, okay, well, there's other
churches that do this.
How do you do it?
And I had no idea what to do.
And then it was like two weeksafter I came back, I I met Greg
(15:02):
Lake, who's an attorney and himand I started talking on
Facebook and he kind of startedpointing me in the right
directions to discuss the, likewhat the law was, what the
rights were, what the riskreally, what the risk is.
And to to make that, to, toeducate myself and get that
understanding on what was Irisking?
(15:24):
How are you protected or notprotected?
How do you even file thepaperwork to start a church?
What do you need to do?
And he kind of, was my chaperonedown that rabbit hole.
Which led to other, amazingpeople that started pointing me
in the right direction andproviding the resources that I
needed.
And then my friend SusieCalypso, she she has a Bufo
(15:48):
church, Temple of Eden inSouthern California, but she
didn't have that either at thetime.
And so she was like, I want todo this, but with Bufo.
So then I had a partner to kindof navigate this space with and
figure out everything fromfiling the article incorporation
with the state getting an EINnumber from the IRS creating
your church documents, yourstatement of belief Which bank
(16:11):
isn't going to take your money,which website isn't going to
confiscate your money which werelessons that we all learned the
hard way and lost a lot ofmoney.
So it was just this whirlwind oflike, once I made the decision,
okay, this is what I want to do.
This is the only way I feel goodgoing forward working with the
medicine.
I can't do this undergroundthing.
(16:32):
I can't run around like I'mdoing something wrong, acting
like I'm doing something wrong.
It's a weird energy to evenbring into ceremony.
And then to be all fuckingparanoid.
I mean, there were times wherewe would do the ceremonies
underground.
I'd be like looking out thewindow, like a tweaker, like,
Oh, is that a cop?
Like, and, you know, Um, andthen, we had an underground
ceremony where not just like onecop showed up, like the whole
(16:54):
squad showed up, we had ahelicopter and county SWAT and
guns and everything.
And I was like, fuck this.
Like I can't.
And that was right after I madethe decision for the church.
I went to another ceremony thatwas underground in November and
the whole damn San BernardinoCounty, sheriffs and SWAT came
out with the helicopter.
(17:16):
And it was fine.
Once the cops like figured outthat like people weren't dying,
they, they had heard thescreaming is what called the
cops what we got the cops there.
And a big thing about when wecame out, out of, out of the
shadows.
Was we could go to the neighborsand say, Hey we're doing an
ayahuasca ceremony.
People may scream, you may hearthrowing up, you may hear
(17:37):
crying.
Here's my cell phone number.
If it's annoying or you'reconcerned, text me, we could go
to the local police departmentand say, this is what we're
doing.
If you get calls like that,here's the phone number.
Here's the address.
And be out and not hide and itcompletely transformed the
energetics of the ceremony to,having organizers and retreat
(17:57):
leaders and people there thatare relaxed and not standing out
in the front yard, waiting forthe police.
And and so that was really themain driver of it.
And it was like, how do we letpeople know we're doing this?
Because essentially for 2 years,we were seeing the same people
over and over again.
And it was a lot of the samedemographic.
It was like primarily whitepeople in their mid twenties to
(18:22):
mid thirties like nobody showedup with like a fentanyl
addiction or like deep trauma.
Not a lot of minorities.
It was just kind of milk, likeit was the same.
People and that it didn't feellike we were accomplishing a
whole lot when we wereunderground and that was a big
driver, too.
(18:43):
So I don't know everything in2000 in late 2020 after the
ceremony where the cops came andI was still, I was planning
everything.
And I think For me, likespiritually, when like the whole
shit show showed up with all thecops and stuff, like that was a
test for me.
Like now that your worst fearshappen, let it go.
(19:07):
Yeah.
I ended up in jail.
Everybody was safe.
I could actually break down whythe cops actually showed up and
realize I had control oversomething like that, to prevent
something like that fromhappening in the future.
And then that confidence of likeus not all getting hauled off,
And thrown in a jail cell, whichwas like something that I
thought would happen.
(19:28):
So yeah, after that we, we filedeverything and we had our first
public ceremony where we built awebpage and actually had
coworkers of mine at theinsurance office, like helping
me do this and like put thewebsite up, build that do, a
Instagram page and I didn't knowI just oh, here's a little flyer
(19:50):
and then We posted a bunch ofmemes and the meme started like
weirdly driving people to thepage like and we would get I was
like We got a thousand followersin a month just from like
reposting spiritual memes andcreating memes and stuff The
memes were like, just a odddriver of people to ceremony.
And that's what really got theawareness of what we were trying
(20:12):
to do.
And the first ceremony that forHummingbird church, like my
neighbor had offered, she's likeoffered a barn that she had,
that was just her ex boyfriendand was like a hoarder and it
had all this shit in it.
And she's like, you guys canclean it out.
You guys can use the barn.
And I was like, we'll make itwork.
So for three months, myboyfriend, my baby's daddy, my
(20:37):
ex boyfriend like a bunch ofjust other people that were
randomly around helped us cleanout this barn and redo it and
cut the stalls out of it and,put lights in it and insulate it
and bought all this stuff.
And I ended up now it being lateDecember of 2020 being 30, 000
(20:57):
in the whole.
Without one ayahuasca ceremonybecause I knew I wanted the mats
and I wanted materials and thesethings, and I wanted a website
and I wanted all this, so I waslike, I'm only gonna spend
10,000.
And then it 10 went to 20, wentto 30, and I was like, oh shit.
And the first.
Ceremony we did, I hope I canjust get 25, at least 25 people
(21:19):
there.
So it's worth, tied to Pedro'stime for coming out and like,
maybe not financially lose moremoney on it.
And within two weeks of postingthe ceremony, I had 40 people
signed up.
And I was like, Oh shit.
Like I grossly underestimatedthe demand for the ceremonies.
(21:40):
And then, and I, and I.
I think for that, I mean, I wasjust trying to break even and it
was like 675 for threeceremonies.
So I would usually would end upabout 000 in the hole from it.
And that was a big thing too,like of lessons learning, like
you can't bankrupt yourself inthis, and you don't have to take
a vow of poverty.
(22:01):
As long as you're, Like writingthat line.
I see a lot of people that getinto this struggle with that
too.
Like, how do we charge for myservices?
How do I make money?
Am I being evil?
Like, is this fucked up?
Is this some Babylon shit?
Like if I'm trying to get paidfor all this time and effort and
financial risk that I didversus, you know, being able to
provide scholarships and Peoplethat don't have the financial
(22:24):
means into it.
So it was, that was like a wholenother thing that took like two
years.
I'm still trying to figure thatout, but it took two years to,
before ever like making aprofit, but it did, it would
take about two years to paymyself back for these ceremonies
for the initial investment ofit, and then probably like after
(22:45):
that, making a little bit ofmoney from it which was.
Yeah, it was just a really weirdspace to be in.
I think it's hard for peoplewhen you're doing spiritual work
and you're doing work to helppeople to put a value on your
time and your services.
And there's this kind of likeweird societal expectation that
like you're doing somethingwrong by charging for it, but
(23:05):
it's your time and it's yourenergy and it's your life like,
and it's your expertise.
And so I, the kind of balance Ifound with now is that as long
as I'm able to, when we comeacross that person who
absolutely has no financialmeans of getting to ceremony.
To be like, fuck it, dude, wegot a map for you.
(23:27):
And we've never had to be like,oh, we can't help this person
that we want to help there'sbecause there is such abundance
in this space and being a goodsteward of the finances is
really important because there'splenty of people that, Are
willing to pay that have themeans to pay and you need the
money to make it happen But asyou manage your money and your
(23:51):
finances correctly, you can helpthe people that can't pay for it
And I we every year our goal islike right around fifty thousand
dollars in scholarships givepeople and we You know, mean or
exceed that every year.
And we do creative things like,selling t shirts to, raise money
(24:12):
for the veteran scholarships.
Doing different, like, events.
We've never personally done likea GoFundMe or anything like that
because we haven't had to.
So yeah, it was like once we,started charging more and not
losing, I wasn't personallylosing money because you get
really burnt out too.
Like when you're financiallydrained, you can't continue to
do the good work you believe inwhen you're just, it starts
(24:36):
changing your, the way you feelabout this thing is in a very
negative way.
So you really have to take careof yourself and your
organization financially to beable to do anything that you
want to do.
And that's something like, Ican't stress enough to people
because I see a lot of peopledoing what I did, financially
hurting themselves, like, orbeing like, I don't know, I
(24:57):
don't know how much to chargeor, and it's like, you just
really have to sit down andpractically like look at the
numbers and evaluate it and setgoals as to what you're trying
to achieve.
It can't just be like all woo.
You really need to do some 3dshit to have any kind of
longevity in this space.
And really ask yourself, behonest with yourself about what
(25:21):
kind of exchange you expect foryour energy and your time.
So you don't feel burnt out andbitter and like.
Fuck that shit, like it'sbecause it's hard.
This is the hardest this work isso hard This is so there's so
many times with this I'm like,I'm gonna go running back to the
Catholic Church or to acorporate America like because
it's easier and this is Hard andso your heart needs to be in it
(25:42):
and you need to be taken care ofand you need to have balance So
that you don't go off the wallsbecause you're dealing with some
crazy You stuff.
And yeah, so it was like, thosethings were all happening and
working themselves out and thenwe're bringing in facilitators
and it was just, there was fourof us when we started
(26:03):
hummingbird church.
It was me, Brian, Joe, Susie,well, and Tito Pedro.
So five, that was it.
That was our facilitators for a40 person ceremony.
There was no music.
There was, we had Vitaly comeand do breathwork the first one,
and that was his first timedoing group breathwork.
And then he blew up like butthat was it.
That was our, that was yourcrew.
(26:25):
And then people were like, Hey,we want to help you guys.
And so every time we do aretreat, we basically adopt five
people from that retreat thatwould help us out the next one.
And it grew and grew and grew towhere now we have 85 people
that, Regularly volunteer orstaff members and run these
retreats and each person broughta new piece of the puzzle.
(26:49):
They, whether it was cooking orpatients or medical information,
it was like everything weneeded, we kept getting from the
community.
And soon we ended up having thisBadass community of doctors,
lawyers, psychiatrists,musicians, artists people from
(27:10):
different indigenous lineages,just good people.
Like, and every, like so manydifferent nationalities and
backgrounds.
And I mean, it's just such it'sthe goonies.
Like if you looked at us alltogether, you'd be like, why the
fuck are these people hangingout with each other?
There's not a type.
It's not like, Oh, we're alllike wearing white, doing yoga.
(27:32):
It's not like that.
We're real people.
We look like a fucking grocerystore.
Like it's not.
And that was kind of the goal,like for our, so many of these
ceremonies I went, I was thefirst year that I did plant
medicine, I was a ceremonyhopper.
I went to everybody's ceremony.
I saw you had a bunch of them.
You were like every ayahuascaceremony for every group in
(27:53):
SoCal.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161 (27:56):
That was like the 2017 2017 era.
I was like, Oh, there's Courtneyagain.
Joshua Tree.
Every time I went to JoshuaTree, regardless of why I was
going there, I'm like, I bet I'mgoing to see Courtney this
weekend.
And we'd see each other.
It's like, Oh, you again.
It's great to see ya.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (28:14):
Yeah, I 2017 2018 was fuck.
I drink a lot of medicine andand there wasn't really talk
back then about integration oranything.
It was like, you drank themedicine and you went home.
And then for me, it was likeevery other weekend I was at a
fucking ceremony.
Like ayahuasca, San Pedro,Wachuma, Bufo.
(28:35):
And that's why I stronglyadvocate against doing that now
is like, I'm just so gratefulfor my brain and my ability to
bounce back and cause it wasjust too much.
But you, for me, I, you know,I'd been a drug addict, like,
And I was super depressed afterI had my kid and I was not going
to go back to drugs.
I was like, I'll kill myselfbefore I go back to doing drugs
(28:57):
to deal with life.
And when I found plantmedicines, I started having
these breakthroughs, but then Istarted like when it shit starts
getting real and you're in thereal world and it's time to
test, like, do you want to bethat shitty person?
Do you want to go back to what'scomfortable or do you want to
really be this better person?
It was like, Oh no, more plantmedicine, like I'm going to, I'm
(29:20):
not going to sit with that.
I'm going to go to anotherceremony and I'm going to start
having these mysticalexperiences and I'm going to
chase this mystic and veryungrounded, still helpful, but
also harmful at the same time.
And it was like the amount ofmedicine in that 2017, 2018
period.
Like I don't think anybody needsto do that in their whole entire
(29:42):
fucking life.
But when you're not integratingand you're bypassing and you're
hopping from ceremony toceremony, from plant medicine to
plant medicine, I don't know.
I just thought I'll like, Iwould just do enough of it.
And then just one day I'll belike, Oh, I'm all better.
Like I'm an ascended fuckingmaster.
Now I reached enlightenmentbecause I drank enough peyote or
ayahuasca.
(30:03):
I didn't, I had no concept ofdoing the work.
Hardly anybody was talking aboutit.
And the people that were talkingabout it.
Like, where somebody would popinto my Instagram reel or on
social media, I'd be like, eww.
Like who, it just, it seemed, Idon't know, it just seemed like
douchey.
It wasn't relatable.
It wasn't, I was likeintegration.
(30:25):
I was like, oh, this is wherethe therapist tried to
manipulate the space and get inhere and like take all the
fucking magic out of it.
And then you get to a spot whereyou really, with these powerful
entheogens and spirits, likethey lay you out.
And they're like.
Alright, now you gotta do thework.
So if I would've known aboutthings like integration and
(30:47):
taking breaks and that, it'snot, it's, they're not fucking
Pokemon.
You don't gotta catch them all,dude.
Like, you don't need to justtake all the plant medicines,
and it doesn't make you anycooler or better or even more
progressed in your personaldevelopment.
It actually makes you kind ofretard things.
And um, from those ceremoniesand from overdoing it.
(31:08):
And from that experience is whatI, brought to hummingbird and
like our kind of joke with a lotof the facilitators, because we
all like that we're in that timeperiod when entheogen is just
boom, they're in the U S andthey're here and there's all
these ceremonies and so countFlorida, like those are the two
hotspots happening everyweekend, like.
(31:29):
We say we went to every shittyceremony in the U.
S.
so you don't have to, and learnthose lessons and, talk about
the importance of integrationand have integration where we've
got people that are doing itthat aren't telling you what to
think or what to do, but justholding that space for you.
Like we say, the raft's goingdown the river and it's just,
(31:50):
they're just the oar that keepit from hitting the rock too
hard.
Like, that's it.
And, And it's all from lessonslearned.
This is, we're all very muchpioneers in this space and
learning these things anddeveloping it.
And yeah, I mean, we just reallytry to help people not have to
(32:11):
go through what, like we wentthrough to come to the same
conclusion and not hurtthemselves in the process.
So everything that we've done atHummingbird and continue to do
is.
from experience, from us livingit.
Not because anybody told us todo it.
It's all been, hard lessons andwisdom gained.
(32:32):
And and I know, and I hope, Iknow, and I hope a year from now
I look at what I was doing todayand go, Ooh, you know, and
because we're growing anddeveloping and learning and not
thinking we have it all figuredout.
So, yeah, it's been, it's.
It's been a lot of lessonslearned and that's why I really
do feel passionate about sharingthis information for that person
(32:54):
that wants to come into thespace.
Instead of looking at everybodywith suspicion, like, why do
you, why are you here?
You don't have the right to behere.
What experience do you have?
I'd much rather just assumepeople have goodwill, let God
and the people and the medicinesort it out and just share the
information and the lessonslearned.
Because I don't think like withHummingbird Church, what we
(33:14):
were, what we did, I don't thinka lot of people in the U.
S.
were doing that.
We're doing as many retreats aswe were.
We're doing them Indigenous ledand had the number of
participants that we did.
Oh, all I care about is money.
There's no fucking money! Like,if you're doing this to like,
cause it's like, you think it'sa good way to make money?
You're gonna learn it's not.
(33:35):
It's really fucking not.
This is expensive.
There's a lot of liability.
You're dealing with so manymoving paces, like basically any
other thing you'd wanna do wouldbe a better thing way to make
money than this.
And it takes so much heart andlike you really have to believe
in it to do it.
And our, when we would have somany people in ceremony, it was
(33:57):
because we just didn't knowwhat, like we didn't wanna tell
people, no.
We didn't know what to do.
And we had a ceremony up in theBig Bear area in, oh, shit.
When was that?
I think it was the end of 2022.
We had 64 people in there.
And I was like, this is, this istoo fucking much.
Like, this is way too much foran ayahuasca ceremony.
(34:20):
And it didn't go great.
I mean, thank God, like nobodygot hurt, but it was just, It
was like a fucking war zone anda mental hospital on a
battlefield.
Like it was just too much.
And after that I had to reallypause and be like, what are you
doing?
Like, stop it.
You got 64 people on a mat andyou got 25 people volunteering,
(34:41):
like, like staff, You've gotalmost a hundred people here.
This is too much.
And so after that, I reeled itback in.
So for 2023, we started cappingit at 40, which is still for a
lot of the carriers and a lot ofthe spaces too much.
So now we've drilled it down.
We're doing 12 personceremonies, 25 person
(35:02):
ceremonies.
And then in Utah, that'sprobably the biggest one.
Utah and Southern California,we'll cap it at like 30, 35
people max.
And that, and then reduce thenumber of staff that we've had
because less is more a lot oftimes.
we continue to, adjust and, moveparts around.
But, those were, I think in thebeginning I had very rose
(35:25):
colored glasses.
I was like, I just want to bringthis to the whole world.
I want to, everybody just come.
And the screening wasn't asstringent.
And it was just like, God's gotme, God's got, I'm spiritually,
it's like, no dude you need todo your part.
If you want God and all yourguides and everybody that's
trying to help you to do the,like, make it a little easier
and do your part by being safeand sane.
(35:48):
And so we, we worked withdifferent people on like
developing our screening andtrying to do the best that we
could to, Educate people thatwant to come to ceremony and
also screen people to come toceremony and then also the
protocol for what happens whensomeone has a seizure.
Somebody hits their head.
Somebody has an allergicreaction.
Somebody freaks out.
(36:09):
And those are things that youneed to have a plan in place.
So that when the shit hits thefan, you can actually operate
and do something that'seffective and not harmful.
And, that's something I'm reallypassionate about because I've
seen in ceremonies where likesomeone's having a seizure, like
get the Palo Santo out.
(36:30):
It's like, What the fuck are youdoing?
They're having a seizure or thisis just a spiritual, an
energetic purge.
They're having a fuckingseizure.
Like you have to do something.
Yeah, it could be energeticpurge.
I'm sure it is, but they're alsohaving a fucking seizure.
So we were so grateful to getSteven who was a medic with the
army.
Also he's a a therapist and hereally helped us.
(36:55):
Put these safe practices inplace where we CPR certify
everybody that wants tovolunteer.
We do basic life supporttraining.
There's another one.
Just stuff that's like verypractical so that you have those
tools.
So when those things happen andthen always now having a nurse
and nurse practitioner or amedical doctor at the retreats.
(37:15):
Because one thing you don't wantto do too is, if someone's going
through a process and you're,you can't identify, is this
physical?
Is this spiritual?
Is this, what is this?
And if you just call 911 becauseyou panic and now you've got
somebody hauled off to thehospital in an ayahuasca
process, like what a fuckingnightmare that is.
Who doesn't need medicalattention, they could be totally
(37:37):
harmful.
So you really have to beconfident.
And like When do you administerthe medical aid?
What are the signs that you'relooking for?
And having somebody that'sactually trained in the
practical is, was so beneficialfor us.
And we had, cause we have hadthose scenarios, we have
(37:57):
scenarios, somebody hit theirhead.
Do you have a concussionprotocol?
What do you do?
If someone has a seizure, whatdo you do?
Someone has an allergicreaction.
Do you know how to use anEpiPen?
Do you have an EpiPen?
Do you even know what a fuckingEpiPen is?
Do you know what an allergicreaction is?
So yeah, we had no first aid kitwhen we started.
Our first, we have a whole medbag with oxygen and everything
(38:18):
now.
And granted, it is not commonfor these things to be needed in
a ceremony space.
But when you're running thenumbers like we have and doing
retreats as much as we have,it's, you're going to hit these
scenarios and And people, otherayahuasca groups have seen us
like, yeah, this is our med bagand our protocol.
They're like, what the fuck arethese guys doing?
But it's like, well, when you'redoing ceremonies with over a
(38:39):
thousand people a year, someshit's going to happen, so
that's where I really feel likejust stressing the very
practical stuff.
To people, for them, even fortheir consideration is gonna
help keep things a lot safe andsane for everybody.
And I hope that's a contributionthat we can just give to people
(39:03):
like our screening form.
Open source code.
You wanna screen people you'renot sure.
Go copy ours.
Go on, go take the intake, hitthe intake form link, put in
some bullshit answers and moveon to the next one.
Copy, paste, and or email infoat Hummingbird Church and we'll
send it to you.
If you're, you have waivers,you're like, what do I do to
protect myself?
Dude, email us.
We'll send you the waivers.
(39:23):
Just don't do something like Ihave, there's some groups where
they didn't change the name onit and they're filling it out
and it says like hummingbirdchurch.
No, like be smart about it.
Take your name off of it.
We'll give you the template sothat you can plug and play in
it.
But stuff like that, waivers,liabilities, screening people,
that's all we don't care.
Take it, use it, share it.
If you find something cool andbetter to add to it, send it
(39:44):
back to us with thatinformation.
Like, because none of thosethings were developed or
learned.
It was all hard and it was alltrial and error.
So if we can prevent unnecessarytrial and error of others and
help, secure the safety ofpeople participating in these
entheogenic ceremonies we're allfor it.
So, yeah, so it's just, it'sbeen a lot.
(40:08):
It's been a lot of learning,development.
Increase, I mean that the demandfor these ceremonies is far more
than anything we could evermeet.
We couldn't, like, even if webecame the McDonald's of
ayahuasca, like we stillcouldn't meet that demand.
So people coming into this spacewith integrity and goodwill and
(40:30):
intentions and good stewards ofthe medicine is necessary and
it's needed.
And, we want to help make thatsafe.
That plays safe and foreverybody.
So,
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (40:42):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing all thatand that touched me on multiple
levels because that story arcthat you just went over.
I've been on that story arc.
I followed that, a trajectorylike that going from just being
at a ceremony every otherweekend to the point where I was
helping facilitate doing musicand the whole deal getting to
(41:06):
the point where I was so burntout that the last ceremony that
I facilitated, I was laying onmy mat before we started and it
was, everything was kind ofsettled down and I just lay in
there and just, I stood up and Istarted walking towards my car
and like.
It is a totally unconscious.
(41:28):
Unconscious behavior walkingtowards my car and like, where
am I even going?
Why am I doing this?
And I checked in with my body.
It's like, oh, this is a flightresponse.
Like I want to run away fromthis, like something inside of
me.
Physically.
I'm like.
Okay, I'm not, something is notright here.
(41:51):
And I, that was it.
After that, I was just like,I'm, as you said I was
bypassing.
I was like, I was doing, I wasdrinking so much medicine, doing
so, so many ceremonies.
I didn't have time to do my ownwork.
And to do the integrationthat's, that now we know is
necessary.
And not only is it necessary,it's a crucial key to making
(42:14):
progress.
I was just, I thought if I, themore ceremonies I did, the
better I was going to be.
Without doing the work myselfand yeah, I got so completely
burnt out that like, I almostjust ran down the road to get
away from the ceremony at thatpoint in time.
(42:34):
And it was like, yeah, that's, Ijust, I psychologically,
physically cannot do thisanymore in my heart.
On some level, I knew.
That there was people that werebenefiting from what I was
doing, but I was not benefitingfrom what I was doing.
And like you mentioned, like Iwas.
It was having a negative impacton my life.
(42:55):
And I'm really glad that youtouched on the aspect about
energy exchange.
there's nothing spiritual aboutpoverty.
There just isn't.
And you mentioned that there'sthe societal programming around
that and I.
Live that firsthand.
And I had this whole couple ofyears of trying to figure out
thinking about worth, likewhat's like, what's it, what
(43:18):
does it mean to, to have anenergy exchange for like, what
is my time worth?
What is my.
my.
Expertise or my, my, myknowledge and my skillset,
what's that worth?
And like, am I willing to acceptless than a poverty wage to do
really skilled, hard, verydemanding on multiple levels
(43:41):
kind of work, and you just can'tdo that forever.
That's a recipe for disaster.
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024 (43:47):
You can't,
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (43:48):
I'm really glad that you brought
that up and there's, yeah,
courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_ (43:52):
so many facilitators in this space
are completely taken advantageof.
Like, it's, it's insane.
Like, oh, you wanna show up andbe part of this.
Okay.
Well, you're paying to travel.
You're there.
You're away from your job, yourfamily.
You're responsible.
We need a dog sitter or kidsthere or whatever, someone to
water your lawn.
They have all these expenses andstuff that they're, and they
(44:15):
want to help.
And then they have this beliefthat, okay, I just need to do
this like for free and helping.
And there's time.
Yeah.
When you can give for free andit doesn't hurt you for sure.
But when you've got people thatare, a standard part of your
ceremony or doing things foryou, you've got to compensate
them.
And I've.
We, we pay facilitate, we havevolunteers, but we pay our
(44:37):
facilitators.
And that was something thatreally wasn't well received by
the community.
Like we would, in the beginning,we didn't have a lot, but like
we, when we were under, Hey,Ian, can you come do music?
Can you come help with this?
Like, borrowing from thesedifferent communities.
And like, when we would Youknow, bring somebody from
another community and we paythem.
(44:57):
They'd be like, Oh shit, you'repaying me.
Or you're buying my airfareticket.
You're paying for my check bag.
Like, no, I've been doing thisat my own expense and financial
detriment.
I'm like, what, but you'rehelping like.
And then other organizers andpeople would be like, why are
you paying for their stuff?
You don't need to pay.
Everybody should be here as asacred volunteer.
(45:18):
Well, that person's making moneylike shit.
Who the fuck are you fooling?
And I've seen so many greatfacilitators be completely taken
advantage of or volunteer,whatever you want to call it.
I know people sometimes callfacilitators people serving the
medicine.
That's not who I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about the personthat takes you to the bathroom
and has a conversation with you.
Or help set up and do thesethings or plan an activity or
(45:40):
lead integration where a lot ofthe people that are organizing,
like in my position, think thatthose aren't skills you should
pay anybody for it.
That they should just be happyto be part of the community.
And then you run throughfacilitators, you're constantly
recycling people because you'reburning them out because you're
not doing an adequate energyexchange with them or supporting
the services that person'soffering, if they have a
(46:00):
business, like, or so like, Imean, for church, it's like a
bizarre things that are for salethat people bring.
I don't take a cut of it.
Why would I take a cut of whatpeople are selling?
Or if someone does integrationservices, I don't expect a cut.
Like this is supporting ourcommunity.
And that's something that like,I feel really passionate about,
(46:24):
people need to be paid andappreciated.
And.
Given opportunities and in a lotof communities, they just don't
value.
There's a lot of turn and burnof people.
I mean, you're going to have toturn and burn naturally because
people are going through suchintense processes and growth.
And you do, I'm an advocate ofstepping the fuck away from this
at times.
Like you have to step away.
I step away.
You won't see me in ceremony forthree months because I'm doing
(46:45):
work.
I'm spending time with my childand I'm being a human fucking
being.
And you've got to step away andtake breaks.
But if you're not properlytaking care of your people,
financially, energetically,you're going to lose them and
you're just going to have thisconstant burnout of people.
And it's so sad and, um, it's.
(47:07):
And then these people are doingit with their heart.
So they're like, I don't think Ishould pay, but then they're
financially fucking themselvestoo.
And It's sad that it gets downto that.
But I imagine like regularchurches have that problem too,
part of our healing process isbeing able to, Say what we need.
What do you need?
What are you?
And find value in yourself andwalk away if someone's not
(47:30):
willing to compensate you or dothat exchange with you.
Just, okay, cool.
You're, you don't think I'mworth it.
Right on whatever.
And not take it personally orlet it destroy you, but to move
on, and hold your value.
So we definitely.
I had it for myself with, Oh,I'm getting, getting the
compensation for taking thefinancial risk and not going
(47:52):
into poverty.
But then also, with the peoplebringing on to be able to pay
them.
So it's all part of it.
Everybody needs to get, and thisis such a highly skilled niche.
Like, if you find somebodythat's good at helping people in
this space, why would you everlet them go?
I'm like, it's blood in, bloodout.
Gang, gang over here.
Like, If there's a problem, talkto me about it.
(48:15):
Like, let's figure out what'sgoing on.
Is it a break?
Is it financial?
Is it appreci?
Is it just needing appreciation?
Is it burnout?
Like, because these people areso special that are in this
space that actually.
Can help navigate it for otherpeople, especially when you have
this just hordes of peoplewanting to come and have these
experiences now to be able tohave these guardians and guides
(48:38):
that can help you like, don'tburn them out.
Don't treat them like shit andsupport them.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (48:43):
yeah, I think that's super important
and something that's not talkedabout enough, quite frankly, and
I understand why certainindividuals, people leading the
ceremony sometimes people whoare responsible for the
financial aspect, why.
Why they don't want to talkabout paying people or the real
life circumstances of thefacilitators who, who come in.
(49:05):
And like you said, they arehighly skilled.
Now, people who are good atholding space and facilitating
in those kinds of ceremonies,especially if they're larger
group ceremonies, you just, youdon't just find those people and
those people aren't just in somesense.
Yeah.
They're born with certain innateabilities and to be.
(49:25):
Come skilled and to develop anysort of vocation or skill to a
degree where it's reallyvaluable.
It requires a lot of work andpractice.
And I know you and me, we bothkind of went through that period
of time where we were, I wasdriving four hours one way to a
(49:46):
ceremony and then four hoursback on the Monday morning.
And just, I wasn't getting paidAnd I was contributing in a
meaningful way.
And I know you were there too.
We're putting a lot into it,like our heart and soul.
And, I believe that everythinghappens for a reason.
And I'm really grateful for allof the experiences that I've
had, even the crazy, challengingones, the.
(50:09):
The dangerous ones, the onesthat were just fucked up beyond
all belief.
It's like, those areopportunities to learn and grow.
And the crazier the experience,the greater the opportunity, the
more, the bigger, the challenge,the.
The more it pulls out of you tobe able to overcome that
(50:32):
challenge.
So on one hand, I'm, I wouldn'tchange a thing.
I'm super grateful for all ofthe challenges, all the hard
times, all the stuff thathappened.
And.
And I see that was part of myjourney.
I needed to go through that to,to get to where I am today, to
learn about self worth and tolearn about what's right.
And, what's, what resonates withme, not necessarily right, but
(50:53):
like what resonates with me andwhat I see as really benefiting
people and, I think it's, Whenyou're in it, it's hard to have
a proper perspective becauseyou're so close to it, and if
you're doing it all the time,you're so close to it, your
relationship with the medicinecan start to, or relationship
(51:15):
with the ceremony, relationshipwith the organization, Can start
to shift over time and you don'teven realize it because it's
always in your face.
You're you can't, you haven'tbeen able to make enough space
from it to look at itobjectively.
I mean, I can say that formyself over time, like the, with
the spiritual bypassing, like Myrelationship with ayahuasca, it
(51:37):
shifted over time to arelationship of codependency.
And it wasn't like that in thebeginning.
It was, it felt very equitableand it felt like there was a
give and take and I would leavethe ceremony and I would feel
like my cup was overflowing.
Over time, my cup was empty moreoften than not.
And, I, and I didn't realize itbecause I was, I didn't have the
(52:01):
distance.
I didn't take time off to havethat perspective, to be able to
look at it objectively and,human beings are so adaptable,
like we can get used toanything, The craziest, most.
gnarly stuff, like abuse,whatever it is for one person.
Like if you grew up in that, orif it's just been your everyday
(52:24):
life for a period of time,people get used to anything so
you can.
You can have that slide.
You can have that shift yourgood intentions from can go from
a healing process to actually aprocess.
That's, as you said, stuntingyour growth and holding you
back.
It can go from your set of wingsto your ball and chain over
(52:45):
time.
And.
And I think what you said abouttaking the regular breaks, just
taking three months off to, toput your feet on the ground and
be a human being.
I think that is, is soimportant.
And I would really, people whoare facilitating or in that role
or.
Moving in that direction, Iwould really, knowing what I
(53:09):
know now, if I'm working with anorganization and they don't
emphasize that, or don'tencourage that of their staff or
their, that's not a part of theethos of the leadership of.
Intentionally taking time awayto, to do their own work and to
do their homework like that tome is as a red flag and
something that I'm now am veryconsciously aware of when
(53:32):
thinking about working withdifferent groups and when
interacting with people who areholding the medicine or
facilitating or whatever youwant to call it.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (53:41):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, I just did my ownjourney on this.
Like I, I just was guns ablazing.
Like I'm just naturally afucking maniac and I'm just like
go.
And I found myself like, itwasn't until like.
Maybe like May like was made twomonths ago three months ago
(54:04):
where I had a huge wake up callI mean I had been in the space
and I'm not trying to sound likemotherfucking Teresa or like a
martyr or Anything because it'snot like that.
It's not like oh, I'm such agood person because I put myself
last.
It's not at all There's not likea value thing It's just what
fucking happened is that I wasso focused on these ceremonies
making this happen the healingthe healing the healing the
(54:24):
healing and I gained a hundredfucking pounds, and I'm like,
what do I feel like shit all thetime?
Why, what have circle bags undermy eyes?
Why don't I have the energy toplay with my kid?
Like.
What's going on with me, and Ihad a, I was actually a mushroom
ceremony.
It's a sacrilege that I went toa mushroom ceremony and had a
breakthrough, but I had toremove myself because of the
(54:45):
relationship I developed withayahuasca and with Tita Pedro
and helping other people too.
I can't really go into, I can'tget healing from my own.
I went to Peru to go toNimiakaya to like, go do that.
And then, and that helped, twoyears ago.
And then I went to this mushroomceremony.
That were some of thefacilitators at Hummingbird
(55:06):
Church that they did.
And it rocked my world.
And I had a total breakthroughthere.
And, a big message was like,you've got to take care of
yourself.
You can't do shit if you don'ttake care of yourself
physically, mentally.
Mainly physically, like if youand so I left there and I went
to my doctor and I lied abouthaving all these symptoms.
I mean, I had a shit ton of likeshitty symptoms anyways, but I
(55:29):
made up a slew of symptoms so Icould get every blood test
covered by my insurance possibleand do all these tests.
And I got a really like rudeawakening about the status of my
health and But I was in a spotwhere I was like, okay, I can
change this.
Like these things are, thankGod, like these things are
(55:50):
reversible.
I can eat better.
I can sleep.
I found I had sleep apnea and Iwasn't sleeping and that was
part of the stress and I hadhigh blood pressure and.
I had like crystals in my peethat were going to turn into a
kidney stone if I didn't stopfucking drinking soda and shit.
I was running on three to fourRed Bulls a day.
Plus sometimes being like, Ican't relax.
(56:12):
I'm so wound up.
I'm dealing with all this shit.
Like I'm going to go relax withbeer.
Like it just became thiscompletely unhealthy lifestyle
while doing all this work withplant medicine.
It doesn't make you immune toany of this shit and the, but
the ways to do with it, becauseI was, Pouring from an empty
cup.
I was completely drained afterthese ceremonies.
I'd want to be face down in abed for three fucking days,
(56:34):
going through some littleminiature existential crises in
the same clothes, displayingevery symptom of severe
depression for days to recoverfrom a fucking healing ceremony.
And it, and I had to step awayand I haven't been at a retreat
for months because I needed to,or I went to Missouri, but I
(56:55):
just did the cooking inMissouri.
I didn't do anything, like Ijust was like, Oh, I'll do the
cooking.
My family's here.
And I did the cooking cause Iliked doing the cooking.
So I really had to step away andstart focusing on my health and,
was able to like, okay, now thelast 40 pounds.
I'm not eating like shit.
I'm not wanting to poison myselfwith shitty ass food.
(57:17):
I drank a fucking Red Bull lastweek and it turned into a
spiritual emergency.
Like, I'm like, and I was onthree or four of these
motherfuckers a day! Like, I hada coffee yesterday and I was
like, Oh God.
And that was all I was runningon for years, like to keep up
with my life, my job, theayahuasca retreats, and I wasn't
(57:37):
taking care of myself.
And like right now, the priorityhas been taking care of myself
physically.
and making sure I'm good andbeing sober.
Like what a gift sobriety is.
Like, if you don't know what todo with yourself, stop doing
like, stop doing shit.
Be sober.
Like just fucking be sober.
No beer, no fucking weed.
(57:59):
Like no California sober, likeget the weed, get the caffeine,
get the fucking beer, get thefast food, get the shit.
All that is, get the fuckingNetflix out, get the internet
out, get the going on tinder andfucking everything out.
Like stop, just be sober, bepresent.
It's the best gift you can giveyourself and then your brain
stops rattling around like afucking ping pong ball in your
(58:19):
head and you can actually have achance of figuring your shit out
and who you are and what youwant to do.
Like it's just such a blessingin it.
And I feel like the world'sdumbest motherfucker because I'm
doing all this work.
I drank over in 200 ayahuascaceremonies.
I can't, I probably drank 5, 000feet of fucking cactus and I
don't know how many pounds ofmushrooms and smoked how much
(58:42):
DMT and bufo and I don't, andit's like to miss the things
that are so simple.
And that's really what theseentheogens bring you back to.
Walk your dog.
Go outside.
Nature's the greatestintegrator.
Don't eat shitty food.
Don't drink fucking Red Bulls.
Don't be, don't deal with yourstress.
Don't reward yourself with beerand weed.
(59:03):
Like, so, stop it.
Stop putting Ugh, all thesestrangers bodies in your body,
like, like, stop jerking offfive fucking times a day to
porn, like, all these things areso normal in our society, like,
they're not normal, they'rereally not fucking normal at
all, and they control you, andwhen you get sober and you stop
(59:23):
doing these destructivebehaviors, that mental clarity
that you get.
And the chance of everythingactually fucking being okay just
goes up through the charts.
So I am so grateful that, Imean, it's like been since May,
but like I just the thought oflike drinking a beer or doing
anything like wicks me out.
(59:45):
And now I feel like I can reallydo the work that I wasn't doing
for seven fucking years in thisspace.
Like, and it's just reallyimportant.
It's really, the space doesn'tmake you immune.
To any of like, this shit.
It actually makes you like, moresusceptible to it.
So, it's, you gotta do the work.
(01:00:05):
You gotta take care of yourself.
You gotta take care of yourselffirst.
It's not selfish.
It doesn't make you a bad personto take care of yourself.
Like, you have to take care ofyourself first.
And, this is a space where it'sreally easy not to do so.
To lose yourself in it.
To become ungrounded.
These entheogens, bring youback, put you out in outer space
and if you don't have a goodconnection, you're not grounded,
(01:00:27):
you're going to float around inspace and maybe float around
until somebody throws you in amental hospital or tell you're
sleeping on people's couchesbecause you can't function.
Like you gotta take care ofyourself.
That's the most important thingin this space.
Don't take care of yourselfphysically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually,financially, like.
(01:00:49):
Otherwise you will not have anykind of longevity in this space
and thoughts and prayers, causeyou'll end up in a mental
hospital, a real hospital, likea hospital or a fucking jail
cell.
Like that's, and I've seen somany, I don't even know how many
people since I've been in thisspace that, Oh, that person
died.
That person's not there.
Oh, what happened to them?
Like, because they don't,they're not taking care of
(01:01:11):
themselves.
They're not grounding.
And it's, you can't work in afucking nuclear power plant
every day and not wear,protective suits.
Suit like it's the same kind ofthing.
And so many of us, because thisisn't something you go to school
for, and it's so new and it'sjust adapting to this different
thing in America, like like youwouldn't jump, you wouldn't be
(01:01:32):
like, I want to pilot a seven47.
But fuck going to school for it.
Fuck learning how to like fly.
I'm just going to jump behindit.
And that's what a lot of peopledo in this space, whether
they're serving the medicine orthey're jumping in to like help
facilitate the ceremony.
It's like, well, yeah you'repiling a 747 and you know what
the fuck you're doing.
And then, Oh yeah, he crashedit.
So even with all these lessonsand stuff, there's still so many
(01:01:54):
simple ones that I'm missing outon and learning every fucking
day.
And, Yeah.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717 (01:02:00):
I very much appreciate your
honesty and you've always beenfor as long as I've known you,
you always just say what's onyour mind and speak whatever
comes up there.
For me, there's never been anydoubt that was actually what was
on your mind.
I so appreciate your opennessand your willingness to share
with what your experience is,because I know it's not
(01:02:21):
glamorous.
Like the things that you sharethere's a lot of.
Ugliness and being honest withourselves.
Something that you mentionedearlier that I, that really kind
of pinged with me.
You have to be honest withyourself and drinking the
medicine and continuing to haveecstatic experiences or these
peak experiences that can leaveyou ungrounded.
(01:02:45):
And when you're not grounded,like your perspective is just,
it's just harder to trust.
Like on one hand, yeah, it opensyou up to a whole nother realm
of existence and experience.
And on the other hand, the 3dreality, things get a little bit
slippery.
And it's, it gets harder totrust your own judgment, quite
(01:03:06):
frankly, it becomes suspect.
And that was, that's myexperience.
And that is what I see with, andhave seen with people who are
doing a lot of medicine work andnot taking the breaks
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (01:03:17):
Yeah.
You can become inverted You justbecome totally inverted and in
this world that we're cominginto where we don't know what
the fuck is real, there's deepfakes and scammers and all this
bullshit.
Like you don't know what's realor fake anymore is you don't
have yourself to trust.
(01:03:37):
Fuck all.
You're gone, dude.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16 (01:03:40):
lost.
courtney-close_1_08-21-2 (01:03:40):
You're lost.
Like you, you have to all, andwe've turned off so many of our
internal alarms because of ourtrauma and society and shit
we're in.
Like, you need to get yourinternal alarm system back up to
where you don't, you trust your,like most of us walk around and
we don't trust ourselves.
Like, like, I know somebody toldme this guy looked shady, but I
(01:04:03):
still got in the car with himanyways.
Or I didn't want to do it, but Idid it because people told me
like, it's just normal.
It's just a norm.
And it's the only way tonavigate this new world with
this technology and AI andpeople's bullshit and people not
being authentic anymore isyou've got to be good with you.
(01:04:24):
And you gotta be able to listento that voice in yourself.
Because that's, what's going tonavigate what's right for you
and when you're ungrounded andit's so sad, cause I mean, I've
had it happen to me and I'vewatched it with many people in
this space, like just completelydetached from reality and start
even attacking and not lookingin the mirror.
(01:04:51):
They're just completely invertedfrom being ungrounded so much.
And it's not a good spot to bein.
And it's really fucking hard toget yourself out of that mess.
And the last thing you need todo.
There's any more plant medicinewhen you're in that space.
You need to chop wood, carryfucking water and call your mom,
(01:05:12):
dude.
Like, that's a, that unglamorouspart of it.
Eat a vegetable, dude.
Oh yeah.
Mhm.
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_16171 (01:05:20):
Do your homework and yeah, be
honest with yourself.
And like I said, the honestypart, it's not so easy when
you're doing ceremonies all thetime, because the, especially if
you're in a, like a leadershiprole or facilitating, because
the feedback you're getting fromthe people around you is usually
pretty great.
And it, it can throw yourperspective, it can give you a
(01:05:40):
different perspective.
If people are always telling youhow awesome you are at healing
or, whatever your thing is, likehow their life has changed
because of, because you sneezedin the ceremony, it's like
removing yourself from thatenvironment and being sober.
I mean, I've done in the lasttwo years, I've done one
(01:06:02):
ceremony and have been verysober.
For the majority of the time andit's been, and I'm still
processing the prior five toseven years of doing all that
work two years.
And I'm still like, I'm stilllike, I'm moving back in that
direction.
The pendulum is starting to finda, like a center point where
(01:06:26):
there's a balance, but man,it's, it takes time.
And sobriety is, as you said,such a gift, such a beautiful
experience.
If you can't, if you can't begood with yourself, sober, like
good luck with doing moreceremonies or doing this or
doing that, if you can't be goodwith yourself, sober and content
and look at yourself in themirror and smile at yourself and
(01:06:49):
feel good about just being like,that's, that should be a good
barometer.
And yeah.
And if you don't trust, as yousaid, that inner voice and you
can't trust your own intuition.
Then you're not going to be ableto trust anybody and you're
going to be reactive to everysituation in life rather than
being proactive and being ableto move in the direction that
you're being called to move in.
(01:07:09):
That's going to bring out thebest and highest version of
yourself.
So, that's such a beautifulmessage to come from, the person
who I look up to and know asCourtney facilitates a lot of
ceremonies, organizes a lot ofplant medicine to, to come to
that point, I think is reallybeautiful and a testament to
both of our growth.
(01:07:30):
And it's been a real pleasureto, to have known you way back
then, and to have been able towitness the evolution of what
you're doing in your work.
And I remember the first thing,the very first post about
Hummingbird Church, I think Isent you a message.
I was like, Yeah, rock on.
That's cool.
I'm glad that you're pursuingthat and you're organizing it in
a, yeah, organizing it and beingopen with it and standing up for
(01:07:52):
what you believe in.
I've always really appreciatedyour honesty and your
willingness to step out and justbe open.
Be your bad self.
So, with that, I think that's a,this is a good place to start to
land the plane.
But but yeah, I'd love to hearif there's anything else that
you'd like to any parting words,any, anything that's present
with you now and.
Any, any websites or anythingthat you'd like to promote and
(01:08:15):
get out there so that people canconnect with you and see if they
vibe with what you're doing.
courtney-close_1_08-21-20 (01:08:18):
Yeah.
So, our website ishummingbirdchurch.
com.
We have all of our events thatare open to the public on our
event page.
When people want to come toceremony, we don't have them pay
and then vet them.
That's no, you have to getvetted first.
So you need to fill out anintake form.
And if we, so it's safe for you.
Don't think that if you hearayahuasca isn't safe for you
(01:08:41):
because of some condition thatyou have.
Call us.
Well, text us.
Don't call us.
We won't pick up the fuckingphone, but text us and then
we'll set up a time for a callor email us at info at
hummingbirdchurch.
com.
And we'll discuss those, withyou.
But don't put your life at riskto do this.
There's lots of other beautifulways to heal yourself.
This isn't the pinnacle of it.
It's not the top of the pyramid.
(01:09:02):
It's not for the spirituallyelite.
It is just one of the many toolsthat God has given us to help us
heal and be better humans.
So if it's, if you can't doayahuasca, don't be bummed out.
There's a million other ways toheal and lots of other beautiful
things to do, but don't put yourlife at risk to do this and do
your research.
Somebody this is so sad thisweek, somebody was saying there
(01:09:23):
was a hummingbird churchceremonies in Montana and they
scammed a bunch of people for500 and it's all over Reddit.
It was not us.
We didn't do it.
We contact, we looked at theprofiles.
They're all from Nigeria.
And, um, people are so, there'ssuch an appetite for these
ceremonies that people putthemselves in situations that
are unsafe or where they can betaken advantage of.
Do your research.
(01:09:43):
It's not like Hummingbird Churchis the only place I think is
safe to do it.
We're actually starting tonight.
I have a meeting to do ourFriends of Hummingbird church,
safe places, website, wherepeople that do these other
ceremonies or our integrationcoaches or offer services we're
going to build that out and thenstart collecting everybody's
information to put it on there.
And those are people that we canrecommend to you as an
(01:10:04):
organization is being safe andsane and best to practice.
So do your research, talk topeople.
If you don't know where tostart, go on Reddit and start
asking questions, and people aregoing to give you the good and
the bad and their opinions aboutthings, but.
That's better than just Shootingyour soul into the fucking wind,
you know, and this isn't justthis is your body your mind your
(01:10:27):
soul You're just everything thatyou're giving to these people to
you know Look over for you andsome of them aren't the best
players.
So Research talk to people don'tjust Give someone a deposit from
Instagram.
You need to be vetted.
You should be filling out forms.
You should be havingcommunication with these
(01:10:48):
organizations So do yourresearch?
Be safe and sane.
Don't do this if it's not safefor you.
Don't lie about your conditionsbecause you don't want to miss
out And realize you still,there's no shortcut in life.
Ayahuasca is not a shortcut.
Shrooms aren't a shortcut.
Pufa is not a shortcut.
It is an amazing tool that canbe the catalyst for some real
(01:11:09):
growth and change.
But you really need to have sometools under your belt, and some
coping mechanisms, and, somesobriety if you can.
If sobriety is what you'reworking on, okay, but make that
a goal.
To be able to handle it andintegrate.
Otherwise you're going to wasteyour time, your money, and
possibly put your sanity atrisk.
So be safe about it and do yourhomework.
(01:11:31):
And don't be bummed out if it'snot for you.
You can still be part of thesecommunities.
There's so many, there's so muchstuff you can do.
There's so many amazing thingsand amazing people.
And don't give up.
Don't give up.
Don't, if you went to anayahuasca ceremony and didn't
work for you and don't give up,don't give up on your healing
because it's, you'll get there.
(01:11:53):
And the only way to get there isto keep trying.
Like you, you just keep trying,keep focused, keep the faith
that You can get through it.
And the saying that we don'theal so that we can experience
more pain.
We heal so we can experiencejoy.
And I can tell you personally,my life has gotten just so much
(01:12:13):
better than I could have everwished for, demanded, or wanted
it to be.
I'm not saying it's perfect.
Like it fucking sucks some days,but it's not just the, my
capacity for joy and my hope inhumanity.
Like.
It's just beyond, beyond whatI've ever even wished for before
my healing began.
So just stay with it.
(01:12:33):
It's hard and it fucking sucks,but it's always worth it.
So stay at it.
Don't give up.
Being sad, having days where youcry, you don't wash your ass,
your relationship falls apart,you fucking hit somebody
whatever you do, those arenormal.
Those are normal and it's allpart of the process, but hang in
there and keep at it and you'll.
(01:12:54):
All of a sudden one day you'lljust realize you're in a lot
better fucking spot than youwere so that's all I got
ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_1617 (01:13:01):
Mic drop.
That was a beautiful way to endit.
Yes, everyone out there, you gotthis.
And yeah, I can't say any more.
That was beautiful.
Thank you so much, Courtney.
And I'm sure people will get alot out of this.
You're a gem of a human and I'msuper blessed to have met you.
And yeah keep being your badself.
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