December 19, 2023 • 49 mins
The wife of Napoleon Bonaparte, Josephine went from a sugar plantation to prison to Empress. But her rise and her fall reveal a dark undercurrent in the trend toward women in post-Revolutionary France. Dana is joined in conversation by the writer Jennifer Wright.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hello, welcome
to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I am
here with my friend, the brilliant writer and historian Jennifer Wright.
Hi Jennifer, Hi Danna. I am so happy to be
here again. I am genuinely thrilled to be doing this
(00:25):
episode with you. We are going to be talking about
Josephine Bonaparte, which was not her actual name, really it
was not, but for popular reference, Josephine Bonaparte. And what
I find very exciting is coincidentally, both you and I
separately saw the Napoleon movie, the Wordly Scott movie. Last night.
We did. Yeah. I was at the Americana. I was
at the Grove. Oh my god. We were both doing
(00:46):
our Rick Caruso Many Many Town. That's a very la
thing to say. I really liked it. I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I really enjoyed it. I think there are some historical accuracies.
I don't think they matter. I think there are historical
accuracies in Marie Antoinette by Sophia Coppola, doesn't stop it
from being an amazing movie. I think their historical inaccuracies
in Marie Antoinette starring Norma Shear doesn't make it less
of an amazing powerhouse performance by Norma Fear.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I have gone on the record and I will continue
to go on the record and say that I think
historical fiction should not operate like a history book. No,
it's entertainment. It's entertainment. It's about theme, it's about character,
it's about it's about vibes. It's vibe.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Slowly do they get the vibes of French Revolution and
the vibes of Napoleon being a very unpleasant little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I wrote my letterbox review, which is the most film
broth thing I'll ever say. And then my letterbox review
is like, it is a misconception that Napoleon was short.
He was average. I that was average high time, was.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Very hunched, and he was poorly fed growing up because
his mother cared a great deal about having furniture in
about Saha, but not providing food for her children.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And of course there was the discrepancy in the English
system of measurement and the French system of measurement. And
also as a first.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Go if you were British Willington was five ten.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I and Napoleon had had two guards next tohem who
are very tall, very tall. But my letterbox review was
that Napoleon was not short. But as this movie makes
UPU net clear, he was Europe's weirdest little guy. That
that is exactly right, that is absolutely true. And the
beautiful Vanessa Kirby played Josephine, which we'll get into her life,
(02:26):
but to Segue, I will say I did find it
very hollywood that they got an actress like fifteen years
younger than Joaquin Phoenix, when.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When in reality, Josephine was six years older then Napoleon,
and Napoleon was very young when they met. It's twenty four.
Tell me about Josephine before they met. Well, I want
to talk about another person who I know we've talked
about on the podcast before as well, and that's Madame
Pompadour and the reason that my favorite historical woman, and
(02:55):
that's because when Josephine was fifteen years old, she was
told by a fortune teller that she would marry a
dark man who would cover the world in glory and
make her greater than a queen. And I was so
strict by this because this also happened to Madame Pompadour
Louis fifteenth mistress.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
These fortunetage are just out here every pretty young girl.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I think these fortune tellers were not uncannily accurate. I
think they just realized that if a young girl comes in,
just tell her she's going to be a princess.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And if she's a very beautiful, they're like, you will
marry a great man, a great man. Y, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
When Madame Pompter was nine, the fortune teller told her
that she would capture the heart of a king and
be not quite a queen, but a little queen. And
just to give you a little bit of perspective on
Madame Pompadour, because I think there's such fascinating archetypes of
pre revolutionary and post revolutionary women. Madame Pompadour, who was
(03:49):
born Jean Pusson, was by almost any stretch of the
definition a genius. She was extremely well educated. She was
almost compulsively well read, so much so that the most
famous portraits of her by Bouchet show her reading and
surrounded by more books. When she was told to get
(04:10):
married by her family, she married a wealthier man who
was not excited about the prospect of marrying this middle
class bourgeois woman. He met her, he was immediately in
love with her, so much so that he was devastated
when the king took her for his mistress. As soon
as she was let loose in Paris, she dominated every
literary salon. Vul Teraire became her closest friend. She was
(04:31):
able to secure him a position at court. And I
think it's pretty well established that once she was made
the King's mistress, she was a great champion of the enlightenment.
She fought against censorship. She was friends with Didero and Montesquie.
She fought the Catholic Church to create a French encyclopedia.
(04:51):
The king considered her his best adviser and consulted with
her on every matter. He should not have done that.
During the seven years of war, not know where to
place cannons, she was very.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Like, you know, and you know, I was gonna say,
you know, who knew how to play, can't place cannons,
just Napoleon. But I think it's also true that. And
I don't want to dismiss Madame Pompadour as being frivolous,
because I think she was very concerned about, for instance,
what she saws overreached the Catholic Church, or censorship or
the continued expansion of the Russian military. The metal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Pompadour's greatest day to day concerned with whether or not
she was able to sutly satisfy the king nine times
a day as he requested. Wow, all right, And when
her frail health after six years meant that she was
no longer able to do that, the King just gave
her a new role at court that basically equated to
(05:46):
the King's best friend.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
She celebrated it by giving him a naked statue of
herself popping her breasts at him, entitled the Spirit of Friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Ha ha ha. That's a great that's a great inspiray. And
she's perhaps best remembered for her statement apri now lad
Yeu's that came after the epic failure that was the
Seven Years War, when Francis army was just destroyed and
their economy entirely depleted. And what it means is after
us will come the flood.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And Josephine was really bored into that flood quite literally.
She was born Marie joseph Rose tache de la pacherie.
She would come to be known as Josephine only when
Napoleon started calling her Josephine. She was largely known as
Rose throughout her life.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Untilda, well, that's the good thing about having three hyphenated
names is people can just choose their favor and go
with it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And that is exactly what happened to Josephine. She was
born on a sugar plantation in Martinique in seventeen sixty three,
and she was born a year before Madame Pompadour died
at the age of forty two. Can I interrupt so
briefly just a historical fact that has always fascinated me.
Is Martinique went back in fourth between the British British
(07:02):
friend and I know that it went from the British
to the French just four months before Josephine was born.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yep. So there's a world where she was born and
she was British and she's off seducing. I don't know
the Duke of Wealling, Lord Nelson, Duke of Wellington. Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When she was three her house was entirely destroyed by
a hurricane, and rather than rebuilding, as her father who
was a chronic gambler, just kind of moved them into
the one non destroyed part of the house. She was
never properly educated, to be fair. She was also not.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Interested in books in any capacity.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, she was left to run essentially wild on the plantation.
She mostly ate sugar, which designed her teeth entirely and
made her very overweight. And just for a little perspective again,
because I love the balance between these two women. When
Madame Pompadour told her family about the fortune teller's prophecy,
(07:58):
which she'd heard because she was on a girl's day
with her mom when she was getting their fortunes read,
her entire family was delighted and they started calling her Radat,
which means.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Our little queen. When Josephine told her family about the prophecy,
she was locked in a sack for eight days because
they accused her of consorting with a witch. Sure, so
Josephine is not growing up in the free, flourishing Enlightenment
era of France that some of her contemporaries were. And
(08:30):
because she now had rotted teeth and was very overweight
and her family was completely broke, she was not married
off to a plantation owner's son, and her marriage prospects
were looking very, very bad by the time she was fifteen,
But she had an aunt who had been a marquis
mistress for eighteen years, and the marquis was getting older
(08:52):
and he was worried about the long term security of
his mistress. And Josephine's aunt convinced the marquis and Mary
his son to Josephine. So Josephine goes off to marry
Alexandre de Beauharnay. He is seventeen. He already has a
twenty nine year old mistress. Her name is Madame DeLonge Prey.
(09:17):
Apparently she's very charming and witty. I've never read anything
about Madame Delongere that doesn't make her seem like a
bit but fine. He has a twenty nine year old mistress,
and he is horrified when Josephine gets off the boat.
He is deeply disappointed in her appearance. He's deeply disappointed
(09:39):
in her lack of education. He starts forcing her to
go out to literary salons, of where people immediately make
fun of her for being an idiot. Women say that
she looks like a little girl dressed up in her
mother's clothes, Joseph and Okay, to be fair, I don't
want this to be me. But the literary salons at
(10:02):
this particular time were mostly just discussing Dangerously Asons, which, look,
they were very specific book clubs. I love Dangerously Asons,
but it used four hundred pages of very horny letters
from imaginary aristocrats back and forth. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
If your only takeaway after reading Dangerously Asons was I
think it would be fun to have sex with the
vicant de Valmond. That would be a completely valid contribution,
and indeed all it should.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
What if he's played by Ryan Phillipp exactly?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, what if they made him wear a suit as
a high school student?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, of course, very sexy. I once saw this is
my fun fact. I once saw Dangerously aisms on Broadway
with leab Dreiber in that role, and it doesn't work.
I saw it too. He was not work. He looks
like a dock. I also thought Alan Rickman clips I
was still online if you ever want to look those.
My take on leib Dreiber was I was like, I
think he was going through a divorce at the time,
(11:02):
and I was like, is there a real wine in
the carross? Like he did not seem like engage. He's
a good actor, and it just was not workings and
seemed like he has the finesse of the velmonk. No,
he did not seem sneaky. Yeah it did not work. Yeah,
no he uh he seems he seems like a battle axe.
He doesn't seem like someone who enjoys the secrecy and
power game surroundings. Yeah. So that is my little Broadway
(11:25):
review corner. Please continue. So he's being mocked at this out,
he's being mocked at the salons and in she ends
up having two children by Alexandre and there is Look,
there is a part of me that loves the fact
that Medame Pompadour so thoroughly dominated the public imagination in
(11:45):
terms of what a sexy, desirable woman he is. Alexandri
responded to this by being like, I cannot possibly fuck
let alone love a woman who does not go to
book clubs. I mean that's great. It's like when you
know our culture or what is sexy is a cultural concert.
I think that like in the early two thousands, there's
that Girl's Gone wild, Paris held the thing and then
(12:07):
we got like the smartest sexy and I think that
it's interesting that that was still happening in the seventeen hundred.
It flactuates back and forth, and that is fascinating. Isn't
it fun that women have to shape our very identities
in order to be desirable.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, But Alexandre says that he can not possibly remain
at home with this object who has nothing to say
to him. So again, this is devastating for Josephine, and
he goes off with his mistress, Lord de Longpree, but
not before impregnating Josephine twice. Now when she is having
his second immediately after she has important is number one
(12:42):
nine gene yeah, Eugenie yep. Immediately after she had his
second child, alex decides to divorce her so he can
be with his mistress. In a truly insane response, he
accuses her of infidelity. He says that she is lower
than all the sluts.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
On the earth. Josephine has been nothing but faithful this
entire career. Calling Josephine a slut, I'm sorry also for
using this lay. They say it explicitly in the movie
Napoleon Bade You Well. We'll come to that. Yeah, but
at this point, totally fine, At this point, very very fine, uh,
(13:21):
and again not to slut him, be a slud do whatever. Sure,
at this point she has been nothing but incredibly faithful
to Alexandre. Josephine retires to a convent to wait out
the proceedings for legal separation. A lot of women did this,
(13:42):
getting back to dangerous liaisons. Madame Trouvelle retires to a
convent to escape the advances of the Vicon de velment.
And if you've if you're listening to Noble Blood, if
you've been listening to noble blood, Isabella or Isabella of Angoulem,
retires to a convent after her scandal. Exactly so.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Lots of stylish women are staying at this convent, and
in an almost unheard of turn of events, the judge
actually sides with Josephine during the legal separation and he
agrees that Josephine has been wronged. He orders Alexandre to
take care of his children and to withdraw any accusations
(14:20):
towards Josephine. Alexandre does none of that, but fortunately the
other women at this convent had taken note upon themselves
to give Josephine a makeover, so they teach her how
to use makeup, which she will use a massive amount
of throughout the rest of her life. They also showed
(14:41):
her how to lose weight, mostly by not subsisting entirely
on candy. And the fashions were also changing. Marie Antoinette
was going through her Tea trianon phase right now, so
instead of the huge pompadour roughly hyperfeminine gowns, people were
dressing in much more simple muslin gowns, and that suited
(15:02):
Josephine a lot better and she felt a lot more
comfortable in that. So after her time at the convent,
she went to Fontainebleau where the king had his hunt,
and she charmed the master of the hunt. He invited
her to come along hunting with the various aristocrats that
the king invited. She was able to find a protector
(15:25):
very quickly. I think she had three of them. All
of them were about twenty years older than her. They
were giving him a tremendous amount of jewels. She was
able to take care of her children, and I think
had things continued this way, she probably would have ended
up like her aunt, being a permanent mistress to one
of these men. Except a revolution happens in seventeen eighty nine,
(15:47):
the revolution promising equality for the common people comes and
Alexandra for wanting his miserable, fucking life is a little
bit useful for Josephine.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
He was a noble, but he was also so a
staunt anti royalist.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
He was a vicante. This is stupid. He shouldn't have
done this. But he became a key member of the
National Assembly, representing a group of nobles that believe that
the monarchy should be a ball And of.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Course this ended really famously well and he worked out
great for him. But when the royal family attempted to
flee the country, it was Alexandre who dispatched the writers
to bring him back and a National Assembly that everybody
had to wait until the royal family returned. But they
couldn't get away from this.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
He emerged very briefly as a hero to Paris, and
Josephine is suddenly very much in style. She's being invited everywhere.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
She is seen very.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Briefly as being a hero of the revolution. Unfortunately, the
promise of democracy did not change France's situation at all.
The people who were starving before are still starving, and
by seventeen ninety three, the Reign of Terror, led by
robes Bay had begun, and it was carried out with
the intent of eliminating anyone deemed parasitic on the state,
(17:09):
and of course that includes all royals and all members
of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Oh and Josephine's husband gets the Jophine's husband is guillotine very,
very quickly. It's so fascinating.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I don't want to dwell too much on the Reign
of Terror, but a reign of terror is fascinating to me.
The executions were based on everything. The one that fascinates
me is that some executions happened because people had old
playing cards and it was seen as showing sympathy towards kings.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And sure, if you're playing cards, what you think. One
of the other special horrors with the revolution that always
sticks in my mind, special starring special horrors horrors of
the Reign of Terror, is that a lot of aristocrats
had dogs. Uh so their dogs went wild after they
were dragged to the guillotine, and it meant that rabbit
(18:09):
packs of dogs were roaming the street drinking blood out
of the gutters. So the army had to be dispatched
to start shooting the dogs.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
That's also another I mean, it feels like those stories
are reappearing because a few hundred years earlier, we're going
to get a dog with the beheading of Mary, Queen
of Scones. Famously, when before she went to get beheaded,
she hit her dog in her skirts, so they came out.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
The one that it makes me think of is the
Rwandan genocide, for the government again had to be dispatched
because dogs and so many people were murdered that their
dogs just ran wild on the street. A lot of
them went ravid. This isn't a theory, but I think
this feels self evident. But I think if you have
to dispatch the army to kill all the rabid dogs
(18:57):
roaming your streets, your revolution had failed. You are going
to be remembered very poorly by his stitch.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
True, So we need to fast forward just a little bit,
and Josephine is in prison.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Josephine's in prison. Josephine is at Las Comes. It's one
of the most horrifying prisons in Paris.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
But good news.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Her roommate in her cellmate, I guess in the prison
is Teresa Cabarets. She is the mistress to the revolutionary
John Tallienne. Now, Theresa is pretty angry that her boyfriend
Protector whatever, is in close coats with robes Bier and
yet she's imprisoned. So she sends Talian a dagger and
(19:39):
a letter demanding that he kill robes Ba and free
her immediately. And if he doesn't do this, he's not
a man. And she feels personal shamed that she ever
slept with us, and Italian actually does this, which is
amazing to me.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He's like, okay, ropes here has to go for all
the reasons, but also for this, no very much, specifically
for this and only for this. So when Robesby is
giving a speech at the convention, Talian storms the stage,
waving the dagger Teresa's sent him and shouting down with
this dictator. His co conspirator, pauled de Barras joins him
and Robesby a flees. He tries to suit himself, but
(20:17):
he only succeeds in shattering his job before being dragged
to the guillotine. Italian and Barrass emerged from this as heroes.
Barrass became the head of the new Directorate government. He's
also one of the only remaining super wealthy men in Paris,
and Josephine emerged from prison at Teresa's behest. Teresa, who
has become a hero to the Parisians, has not forgot
(20:41):
her friend. But Josephine emerges to find Paris and ruins.
Most of the homes have been lit a blaze. But
she's popular again. Yeah, and this is about when she'll
meet Napoleon at a part almost Yes, okay, we're coming
to that. The Baron de Frindley wrote at this time
that after the reign of her it was in height
(21:01):
of good manners to be ruined, to have been suspected, persecuted.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And above all imprisoned. People started wearing their hair crop
to immitate prison styles.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Victim for loved dem Yes, my French pronunciation is not
as good as your. It's ribbons around their necks and
not to the guillotine. Josephine's welcome at the extremely exclusive
Balde Victim where I believe that Balde Victim actually happened
all the time. Yes, absolutely, okay, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
There were basically like support groups for people who had
been imprisoned. There were special salons.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
For people who had been in I've just been from
a purely historical standpoint, It was whether whether the actual
like the main bald of victim was a actually happened
or was like a Romantic invention. I mean, I don't know,
you need to really say. My guess and my speculation
is it's like a combination. Like I think people were
having these parties and then I think in the Romantic
(21:58):
era people were like build up their ideas.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Oh nice, only yeah, the speaking of parties, Josephine was
spending an astronomical amound. She was one of the only
women in the city with a carriage at a time
when bread was so scarce that wealthy people brought their
own food to every dinner party because you couldn't expect
other people to have food. Josephine was also deeply in debt.
(22:22):
She's being constantly perceived.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
She's spending out her money on carriages. She's an insane expense.
She's in desperate need of he protector who will cover
her expensive Fortunately, she'd remained very close with Teresa, who's
universally beloved in Paris, and she's now married to Italian
and posting some truly extravagant orgies. So Josephine becomes one
(22:46):
of the Marviliuses of this period. She appears around town,
cladd in only see through Greek style gowns and sandals.
Some of the Marviliuses walked through the streets with their
breasts exposed. Most of them soaked their gowns in water
so they would clan to their bodies before going out.
And around this time, Teresa introduces her to Paulton Barross.
(23:09):
Paul's now the president of the National Assembly. He's the
richest man in Paris. He's able to pay off the
many many.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
People pursuing Josephine for money, and he asks only that
she'll arrange orgies for him. She does in very extravagant style. Apparently,
at these orgies, women dip their breasts in champagne glasses.
They stripped naked and pretended to be jungle cats. They
took off their dresses and wagered on who were the least.
Josephine sat on Deboras's lap the entire time so he
(23:38):
could bondle and have sex with her.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Throughout. Everything's going great, She's enjoying life.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And it was around this time that a twenty two
year old Corsican general appears and it's Napoleon Bonaparte. He
is absolutely agg at the women in Paris. He writes
to her brother, here alone, they deserve to rule. All
the men are mad for them. They think of nothing
but them. They live only for them. A woman needs
(24:06):
to live in Paris for six months to know what
her do is. He has big virgin energy, he has
big virtin He's very very much a virgin. Women also
don't like him. He is a very brilliant military strategist.
He is very uncomfortable to talk to. His technique with
women was to stare at them for many, many minutes
(24:27):
on and did not say anything. Most women found this
very creepy. Sure, but Napoleon was one of Deborasa's proteges.
So he seats him next to Josephine at a seemingly
non orgy related dinner.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Sure, that's what they say. And whenever it tender, it's like, oh,
how do you meet, and it's like they met on tender,
but it's like, oh we met dad friend party, and
so it's like it was a non orgy party.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think this one was a non ergy party because
I think Napoleon would have been very frightened.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, but it's funny to imagine them trying to whitewash
how he met story. Yeah, and Josephine was nice to him.
He says that she's the first woman in Paris who
has been nice to him a lot. She just talked
to him about how she saw his military strategy, was
smart the entire time, and touched his arm. Oh, kid's
(25:16):
interesting that in the movie they make her seem like
an elusive creature of mystery, and it's not that she
was just a very pretty lady who was being nice
to him at dinner, and Napoleon was in love. He
proposes very soon after, and Josephine, to everyone's surprise. I
(25:36):
think they were married six months after meeting yep. And
people kept wondering why she was marrying this man who
was commonly accepted to be a fool, especially because, by
Josephine's own admission, she.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Had only lukewarm feelings towards him. For Us said that
she was motivated entirely by money, and she would be
had her own lover if she could drink gold out
of his skull. But Bross was pretty mad about this,
and Napoleon had so much less money than any other man.
She knew he made fifteen thousand francs a year, and
that's what she was spending on makeup at this point.
(26:13):
And I think, you know, a slightly more pragmatic explanation
is that Josephine is thirty one by this point, Bros
is very unlikely to marry her. She probably is thinking
about her future in a somewhat strategic way. If Napoleon
isn't successful now, he seems like he's on the verge
of becoming very successful. But I think the most charitable
(26:36):
explanation is just that he's a very awkward little foreigner
over awed by Paris, who everybody thinks is awkward and dumb.
And I think he probably reminded her of a younger
version of herself in a way that she felt very
tenderly towards. I'll also say there's something very charming. I
think Napoleon is a very smart man.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I think we can say that I think he's a
bri militia early, you know. In turn ways, I think
that she probably found his intelligence attractive, But would I
also find very attractive is someone who like openly, really
likes you, boss, really look, but she wasn't gonna marry him.
I'm saying, like she was a guy who's like, I
love you, I want to marry you, and I'd be like,
all right, let's get on with it.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I think that's interesting. But certainly after their marriage, he
goes off to Italy. He writes her a constant stream
of letters.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
This is if you are a noble blood listener, listen
to our episode on the Black Count Tom Alexander Duma,
and that'll be like a good companion to this, because
you're like, what was Napoleon off doing in Italy and Egypt?
That episode will be the context. And meanwhile he's over
there Josephine Josephine.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
One of his letters says that if Josephine ever takes
a lover, he will enact Othello style revenge, murdering her
and her lover and himself. This is all of the letters.
This is how they all read.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
He keeps writing things. I feel like I've read these
letters and he's like, if you loved me, you'd write
me twice a day.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Hey, good women would be I don't think constantly. I
find I don't care for Napoleon's letters. I know that
I see I know that they go for millions and
millions of dollars at auction. But what bothers me the
most about them is that there is no teasing, there's
no warmth of familiarity, there's no friendship in those letters.
Napoleon was an aspiring romantic novelist. When he came to parent,
(28:25):
he was trying to write a romantic novel. And I
think in all of his letters, Josephine could be replaced
by a sexy automaton and the letters would read exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it's not very personal.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, I think if you've paid attention to someone's sandwich
preferences and send them a link to a sandwich shop,
you think they'd enjoy it would be more romantic than
anything Napoleon wrote.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Josephine seems like he's just very I mean, he's very
excited about being in love and desperate for I mean,
not to extend the metaphor of conquering, but like to
own and possess. That's this woman. Yes, I have a wife.
I love her, she loves me. I have her. That
is set.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, Josephine says that he does not love her, he
worships her. Yeah, And I think that does get at
some of the difference there.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Now Josephine, while he is away, has taken a lover
Ippoly Charles. Oh, yeah, he.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Was twenty three. He was very, very handsome. He fit
in very well with Josephine's Paris friends. Barros said he
looked like a wigman cruise dummy. Ross is my favorite
person in this entire story, Nabole and meanwhile was in despair.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
He writes.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Barasaid, if Josephine didn't join him in Italy, she was
going to kill himself.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And Josephine's like, no, thanks, I'm not this time. You're correct. Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Barross needed Napoleon to win battles in Italy because France
needs to re establish itself as a country with some
kind of military power. So Barross tells Josephine that he
is throwing a very elaborate dinner for her. He doesn't
she'd throw this dinner apparrellin It's very nice. And afterwards
(30:03):
he picks her up, bundles her into a carriage, and
tells her she has to go to Italy. Now. I
don't know how to explain their relationship at this point,
except they seem to be best friends who hate each other.
The compromise is that they agree that she can bring
it Charles along with her to Italy. So off Josephine
(30:27):
goes to Italy. She seems to somewhat enjoy her time
in Italy, but before long Napoleon has to head on
to Egypt, and he continues the sending letters to Josephine constantly. Meanwhile,
Josephine goes off to take the waters for her health.
She writes to Brass telling him that she hopes he
(30:48):
gets really, really really sick so he can join her.
I love their relationship. And in Egypt, Napoleon is talking
about his wife so constantly that his soldiers say that
virgies on idolatry. He is aimed to Camp, who was
having an affair with Josephine's maid, finally tells him that
Josephine is having an affair. Napoleon is devastated. He writes
(31:10):
his brother that he's going to get a divorce. The
ship carrying his letter is seized and it gets reprinted
and distributed in all the British papers. Oh that's oh,
British people are so excited, they're so happy. This is
a great day for them. Debt collectors assume that Josephine
will be divorced imminently, and they sit on her Deborahs
stops French papers from printing this article. He fights off
(31:33):
all her debt collectors and he gets her the money
to buy a house called Malmaison, where he tells her
to wait this out, and locals report that they often
see her walking. Was a handsome young man who must
be her son.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Uh huh, it's itpoly, It's always her lover. Yeah, yeah uh.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Napoleon decided to even the score by having an affair
with a young soldier's wife named Pauline, who had accompanied
her husband to Egypt. He had no idea how to
initiate this affair because he was the least terming personal life,
so he just did his thing where he stared at
her for the entire hot air balloon launch they were attending.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Pauline said, and she's like, look at that hot air balloon,
it's coming up that way.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Bauleen said that this made her intensely uncomfortable. Then Napoleon
sent an eight of his to describe that he wanted
to have sex with her. She said no and that
she was married, and this made her again very uncomfortable.
Then he sent her a diamond bracelet, and she relented immediately.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, It's like okay, enough is enough? So I
so spassed. Forwarding a little bit, Why does Napoleon ultimately
forgive Josephine.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
So Napoleon returns to Paris. Josephine has been waiting for him.
Unfortunately she's at another house. When he returns, Napoleon ands devastated,
finally finds her at the house she's at. She's sobbing hysterically,
and she sends her two children to go bang on
his door, and she has coached them to say, our
(33:00):
father is already did whilst we lose our second thought.
So she has her two sobbing children doing this. Then
she goes in. She has sex with Napoleon. The next morning,
he announces he's not going to get a divorce. It's
going to be fine. But Napoleon does continue to have
affairs throughout the rest of its marriage. He never again
(33:23):
indulges in the kind of single minded worship of Josephine.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I'll have an illegitimate child. He will have an illegitimate
child later. Now, shortly after this, if we jump ahead
a little bed, Napoleon stages Acuda over from the thro
the dar spoiler alert, Napoleon becomes emperor, crowns himself, bowns.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Josephine, Bross gets excelled to Brussels. He continues to write
Josephine constantly. Josephine never writes him back again. Nic What
did he ever do other than end the reign of
terror and try to have a democracy. Well, you can't
have orgies and bail Josephine out of every problem.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
See for him. You can't be one of the main
guys when there's a new emperor. You got it, you know,
all right, dark lens one, the one truly lovely man
in this story. So Josephine and Napoleon moving to the
decrepit to Luis's palace. On the gates of that palace
hung a sign from the revolution that read, on the
tenth of August seventeen ninety two, royalty was abolished in
(34:22):
France and will never return. The first thing Napoleon did
was scrub away all revolutionary side. He said he did
not like to see that shit around, and he began
referring to Louis the sixteenth as the good Louis the sixteenth. Well,
I do think, I mean not to step on this
and to agree. I think that part of Napoleon's that
(34:43):
claim to power was re establishing the old, the bad Revolution,
the good power of France. And I mean, if you
think back, if you as a listener are sort of
imagining the imagery and architecture and fashion and furnish furnishings
that we associate with Napoleon, and it's very gilded, it's
very regal. It's like red velvet and it als.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
At one point Josephine had a dress that was covered
entirely with real rose petals.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I she had a dress that was made entirely of
peacock feathers.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Josephine also bought nine hundred dresses a year, five times
more than Marie Antoinette ever bought.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I read a thing that she never wore the same
pair of stockings twice. Well, that's smart, I mean, they
really that makes sense. But also in her defense, I
think Napoleon maybe she went a little far, but I
think he was very much advocating for like, we have
to play this part. We took power by force, so
we have to present power.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
They brought back people to talk about how everything used
to be done at the court so they could try
to mimic it. Now, Josephine was never comfortable was this.
She was sleeping in Marie Antoinette's chambers and she claimed
that she could hear the Queen's ghost asking her what
she was doing in her bed.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So creepy.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Also, around this time, Napoleon declared that French women needed
to learn obedience, so he rolled back women's rights enormously.
Husbands could now imprison their wise for infidelity. Also, and
unrelated to the sexism aspect of this, I just want
to remind people that Napoleon and France is the only
country in history to ever reinstates like great yep.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
People thought it was because of Josephine's influence, because she
grew up on a plantation and she sure was comfortable.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I mean I also think it was partly because Napoleon.
I mean, they just needed like them. I don't think
he cared about the revolutionary ideals. I think he was
driven by like cold economic prospects, absolute lust for power,
power and money. Yeah, so that's not good. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Madame de Stelle, who adored Napoleon at the beginning of
his reign, and wrote in letters saying that she should
be his mistress rather than this insignificant woman Josephine, which
Napoleon was very uninterested and he despised intellectual women.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Really. Oh yes, yeah uh.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Her move with men was to ask them who their
favorite woman in history was, so I have a lively
conversation with them.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
My favorite Madame de Stele quote that I feel like
I come back to a lot is and I'm paraphrasing,
but the one must in life choose between boredom and suffering.
That's very depressed, I know. And as to adult what
am I called it? Contentment? Contentment is better than boredon.
But isn't that just like very insightful?
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, she was a very insightful woman who when she
asked Napoleon that had human reply, whichever woman bore the
most children? Madame de still you shortly after this going
up to flee the country. The censorship put that heads
so horrified. But Pompadour is back in full force. The
Marquis de Sade is imprisoned shortly after the publishing of
(37:49):
juliet which we have an episode on you doing an
episode on Juliette. No, you're doing Justine Angeliat. We've done
the Marquis de Sade, so if you are a listener,
you know all about the Marquis Decoud's imprisonment and his
long suffering wife got his poor wife. You read much?
Merchi De said, not on purpose. I read some for
that episode and I was I literally, I think I
(38:11):
said in the episode. I was like, I'm not quoting
any of this. I'm not recommending it. I don't find
it pleasant. I think it's like a the equivalent of
like a shock comic. It's a shot comic. I actually
loved Juliet as a proto feminist piece about who comes
out on top. But it's pornography. It's nothing I would
(38:32):
recommend any any esteemed listeners of this show.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
But this is basically the end of female intellectuals in France,
where Louis the fifteenth had consulted with Madame Pompadour all
through the seven years, or what Napoleon liked was for
Josephine to sit in front of him in total silence
while he thought about military matters.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
She was a gilded statue.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
She was a beautiful statue for him, and at the coronation,
Napoleon obviously oh, the Catholic Church is back too. Oh yeah,
we've rolled back everything the Revolution tried to accomplish. So
the Pope is there for Napoleon's coronation. But Napoleon crowns himself,
we assume all listeners know, and he also crowns Josephine.
(39:19):
And one of my small comforts of this is that
there was one spectator the coronation that saw Josephine walking
down the aisle in her finery and said, oh, look
there's barasis whore. Oh sorry, I don't love Josephine that much.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
No, she's not interesting, but she's also not I think
the important thing about history is you don't have to
like everyone any feel the fierce loyalty to her, but
I do to some female historical figures. I think she
is an amazing survivor. Well, to fast forward again a
little bit, Obviously, Josephine probably in part thanks to her
(39:57):
age and also the toxic makeup she was wearing, and
also the fact that she had been using contracept contraceptive
douches for years and she had broken her pelvis. So
for all of these factors combine, and she can't bear children.
She can't bear Napoleon in air, and so reluctantly they divorce.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
They divorce. She Napoleon Mary's nineteen year old Marie Louise
in eighteen ten. They're nice Catholic princess, a nice Catholic princess.
The first meeting was arranged at the Chateau de Compienne,
where Louis the sixteens met Marie Antoinette for the first time.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Like Marie Antoinette, Marie Louise had to because he really
just wants to be Louis the sixteenth at this point
had to get rid of all of her French clothing
before Austrian Austrian clothing before crossing.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Into France, and she had to get rid of her dog,
just like Marie Antoinette. And she hated this and was
mad about it.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
And as soon as Napoleon was exiled to Elbas, she
never wrote him again. I went off Garla. She's like,
this isn't my bargain. She did her job, she gave
him a son.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Meanwhile, Josephine retires to Malmaison, her house. She is given
an allowance of three million francs as well as four
thousand dollars to go exclusively to her garden. Now, Josephine
got really into plants at one point. It's one of
her main accomplishments. She introdusing the concept of English gardens
(41:25):
to Versailles and malnabels On became an incredibly beautiful home.
Her granddaughter recalls wandering around eating sugarcane on a rounds,
just like a nice grandmother. But Josephine was inconsolable. She
said that sometimes it seems as though I am dead
and that all that is left is a faint sensation
(41:45):
of knowing that I no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
I mean, yeah, imagine feeling. I mean it's literally redundancy,
but it's the moment. It's like if you get laid
off and they're like it's not personal, but it's like
it's the most personal thing of her. All I done and.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Eighties a crippling redundance, I think because she was not valued.
And again we're coming back to Pompadoor. Pandadar also has
to stop being the king's mistress, but her retirement was
getting to still retirement is instead of having sex nine
times a day, I'm just gonna talk about politics and
all of the enlightened mind writers are going to come
(42:19):
and read me their drafts and I'll.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Give them advice. I mean, that's the horrible thing where
it's like, if you're a woman and your only value
is child bearing or being sexually attractive, then you go
to jobulate out.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And Josephine was still seen as a treasure to some
of the Allies. The Czar of Russia came to visit
her at Malmaison frequently, and but she was never happy again.
Josephine's overriding emotions seems to be despair at this point
in her life, and in eighteen fourteen, she caught a
cold and lapsed into a delirium. Supposedly she could be
(42:52):
heard muttering Napoleon Elba, King of Rome. Just before she died,
she insisted on being dressed in her pink sat morning
gown and rubies in case anyone important came in to
visit Ah, and she likely died pneumonia, though her maid
said that she died of grief at the age of
fifty one.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Fifty one very young. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of
this tragic life. And I'm so glad you brought up
Madame de Pompadour in comparison. Well, I think it is
such an interesting commentary on the revolution that they did
it and now everything is the same, but everything is worse.
And I think that when people view Napoleon and Josephine
as this like great romance, like, I think it's it's
(43:34):
a false image. I don't even think it works well
in the movie. Now.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
I think you can take so many creative liberties when
you're making a movie. But I also think I think
a lot about the fact that these people didn't read.
And I think one thing that does come out of
reading a great deal, at least hopefully, is a kind
of healthy self awareness and a sense of humor above yourself.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
And Josephina and Napoleon had absolutely no senses of humor.
Very is here. Yeah, they were deeply serious people, I
do think in terms of a noble Blood epilogue. The
one weird detail about her life that I always find
sort of morbidly fascinating is that when she felt her
(44:18):
position with Napoleon slipping a little, she had her daughter
Hortense marry Napoleon's brother Louis, who she hated. It's just
everybody agreed. Louis was all, yeah, that's exactly why people
needed Napoleon to divorce Josephine because we're like, we can't
have the power going to his awful brother exactly. Nobody
wanted Louis to be emperor, so like imagine Napoleon's stepdaughter
(44:38):
then becoming his sister in law. It's just wild.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I mean, there's a lot of inter family marriage at
this point, just in some desperate attempt to preserve power,
even with Josephine. Oh but.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah, no, I.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Feel the impressive Josephine was able to survive at all.
I think it's interesting that she was able to use
her sexuality in that way, and that her sexuality was
a thing that was very much created and not innate
to her. She was not born incredibly beautiful the way
we hear about some of the powerful women from this period.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Were, and.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
That's you know, that's obviously something that is worthy of
respect and such a survival tool, and that's very very interesting.
I think because Napoleon hated intellectual women, it's a little
unsatisfying to try to look at more of Josephine's accomplishments.
But I could also be wrong. As Ridley Scott said,
(45:42):
were you there, then you don't fucking know.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I was not there. And I am sure there are
scholars of Josephine who would uh set me.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Set me to rights, and tell me that she had
a fascinating and rich inner life. He just wasn't as
evident as it might have been with some other historical women.
And one theme that I've found always so fascinating in
Noble Blood is this stark juxtaposition, this like tragic juxtaposition
(46:14):
I've found between incredible glamour, like these people spending exorbitant
amount of money, spent eight hundred dollars a year on
eight hundred francs a year on perfume when the average
Parisian families income was six hundred francs.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
So this just like extraordinary glamour in concert with these
tragic mechanisms and feeling trapped. I just find it very interesting.
Is this reinforcing idea where it's like it's a cliche
that money doesn't buy you happiness and power doesn't buy
you happiness. But it's like I think we as audience
members and podcast listeners and writers are drawn to power
(46:49):
and money and glamour, and then all the more interesting
when there's this like deeply tragic undercurrent to it. It
is a deeply tragic under curid. Yeah, no, we see her.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Look.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
I think, at least by the standards of the time,
Josephine could count herself as someone who was deeply loved. Yeah,
she obviously ended this a millionaire many many times over.
She had a very beautiful home, and she had two
children who seemed very devoted to her. This isn't a
tragic story. It's just a story about the limitations that
(47:21):
were placed on women at that time, which to me
do feel especially tragic if you believe that the revolution
was supposed to create some kind of a quality.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
I think that is a beautiful note to end on, Jennifer,
Where can the good people find you?
Speaker 4 (47:35):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (47:36):
They should find me on threads because I don't so well,
No one should. Nobody should. It's Jen Ashley Wright on Threads,
of course, pund oh as. My most recent book is
Madame Ristelle, a History of New York's most fabulous, fearless,
and infamous abortionists and you can let it perver book
(48:01):
sourceld fantastic, Thank you so much, thank you. Noble Blood
is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild
(48:23):
from Aaron mank. Noble Blood is created and hosted by
me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston,
Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The
show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima
Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers
(48:48):
Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hello, welcome
to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I am
here with my friend, the brilliant writer and historian Jennifer Wright.
Hi Jennifer, Hi Danna. I am so happy to be
here again. I am genuinely thrilled to be doing this
(00:25):
episode with you. We are going to be talking about
Josephine Bonaparte, which was not her actual name, really it
was not, but for popular reference, Josephine Bonaparte. And what
I find very exciting is coincidentally, both you and I
separately saw the Napoleon movie, the Wordly Scott movie. Last night.
We did. Yeah. I was at the Americana. I was
at the Grove. Oh my god. We were both doing
(00:46):
our Rick Caruso Many Many Town. That's a very la
thing to say. I really liked it. I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I really enjoyed it. I think there are some historical accuracies.
I don't think they matter. I think there are historical
accuracies in Marie Antoinette by Sophia Coppola, doesn't stop it
from being an amazing movie. I think their historical inaccuracies
in Marie Antoinette starring Norma Shear doesn't make it less
of an amazing powerhouse performance by Norma Fear.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I have gone on the record and I will continue
to go on the record and say that I think
historical fiction should not operate like a history book. No,
it's entertainment. It's entertainment. It's about theme, it's about character,
it's about it's about vibes. It's vibe.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Slowly do they get the vibes of French Revolution and
the vibes of Napoleon being a very unpleasant little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I wrote my letterbox review, which is the most film
broth thing I'll ever say. And then my letterbox review
is like, it is a misconception that Napoleon was short.
He was average. I that was average high time, was.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Very hunched, and he was poorly fed growing up because
his mother cared a great deal about having furniture in
about Saha, but not providing food for her children.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And of course there was the discrepancy in the English
system of measurement and the French system of measurement. And
also as a first.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Go if you were British Willington was five ten.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I and Napoleon had had two guards next tohem who
are very tall, very tall. But my letterbox review was
that Napoleon was not short. But as this movie makes
UPU net clear, he was Europe's weirdest little guy. That
that is exactly right, that is absolutely true. And the
beautiful Vanessa Kirby played Josephine, which we'll get into her life,
(02:26):
but to Segue, I will say I did find it
very hollywood that they got an actress like fifteen years
younger than Joaquin Phoenix, when.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When in reality, Josephine was six years older then Napoleon,
and Napoleon was very young when they met. It's twenty four.
Tell me about Josephine before they met. Well, I want
to talk about another person who I know we've talked
about on the podcast before as well, and that's Madame
Pompadour and the reason that my favorite historical woman, and
(02:55):
that's because when Josephine was fifteen years old, she was
told by a fortune teller that she would marry a
dark man who would cover the world in glory and
make her greater than a queen. And I was so
strict by this because this also happened to Madame Pompadour
Louis fifteenth mistress.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
These fortunetage are just out here every pretty young girl.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I think these fortune tellers were not uncannily accurate. I
think they just realized that if a young girl comes in,
just tell her she's going to be a princess.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And if she's a very beautiful, they're like, you will
marry a great man, a great man. Y, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
When Madame Pompter was nine, the fortune teller told her
that she would capture the heart of a king and
be not quite a queen, but a little queen. And
just to give you a little bit of perspective on
Madame Pompadour, because I think there's such fascinating archetypes of
pre revolutionary and post revolutionary women. Madame Pompadour, who was
(03:49):
born Jean Pusson, was by almost any stretch of the
definition a genius. She was extremely well educated. She was
almost compulsively well read, so much so that the most
famous portraits of her by Bouchet show her reading and
surrounded by more books. When she was told to get
(04:10):
married by her family, she married a wealthier man who
was not excited about the prospect of marrying this middle
class bourgeois woman. He met her, he was immediately in
love with her, so much so that he was devastated
when the king took her for his mistress. As soon
as she was let loose in Paris, she dominated every
literary salon. Vul Teraire became her closest friend. She was
(04:31):
able to secure him a position at court. And I
think it's pretty well established that once she was made
the King's mistress, she was a great champion of the enlightenment.
She fought against censorship. She was friends with Didero and Montesquie.
She fought the Catholic Church to create a French encyclopedia.
(04:51):
The king considered her his best adviser and consulted with
her on every matter. He should not have done that.
During the seven years of war, not know where to
place cannons, she was very.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Like, you know, and you know, I was gonna say,
you know, who knew how to play, can't place cannons,
just Napoleon. But I think it's also true that. And
I don't want to dismiss Madame Pompadour as being frivolous,
because I think she was very concerned about, for instance,
what she saws overreached the Catholic Church, or censorship or
the continued expansion of the Russian military. The metal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Pompadour's greatest day to day concerned with whether or not
she was able to sutly satisfy the king nine times
a day as he requested. Wow, all right, And when
her frail health after six years meant that she was
no longer able to do that, the King just gave
her a new role at court that basically equated to
(05:46):
the King's best friend.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
She celebrated it by giving him a naked statue of
herself popping her breasts at him, entitled the Spirit of Friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Ha ha ha. That's a great that's a great inspiray. And
she's perhaps best remembered for her statement apri now lad
Yeu's that came after the epic failure that was the
Seven Years War, when Francis army was just destroyed and
their economy entirely depleted. And what it means is after
us will come the flood.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And Josephine was really bored into that flood quite literally.
She was born Marie joseph Rose tache de la pacherie.
She would come to be known as Josephine only when
Napoleon started calling her Josephine. She was largely known as
Rose throughout her life.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Untilda, well, that's the good thing about having three hyphenated
names is people can just choose their favor and go
with it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And that is exactly what happened to Josephine. She was
born on a sugar plantation in Martinique in seventeen sixty three,
and she was born a year before Madame Pompadour died
at the age of forty two. Can I interrupt so
briefly just a historical fact that has always fascinated me.
Is Martinique went back in fourth between the British British
(07:02):
friend and I know that it went from the British
to the French just four months before Josephine was born.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yep. So there's a world where she was born and
she was British and she's off seducing. I don't know
the Duke of Wealling, Lord Nelson, Duke of Wellington. Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When she was three her house was entirely destroyed by
a hurricane, and rather than rebuilding, as her father who
was a chronic gambler, just kind of moved them into
the one non destroyed part of the house. She was
never properly educated, to be fair. She was also not.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Interested in books in any capacity.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, she was left to run essentially wild on the plantation.
She mostly ate sugar, which designed her teeth entirely and
made her very overweight. And just for a little perspective again,
because I love the balance between these two women. When
Madame Pompadour told her family about the fortune teller's prophecy,
(07:58):
which she'd heard because she was on a girl's day
with her mom when she was getting their fortunes read,
her entire family was delighted and they started calling her Radat,
which means.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Our little queen. When Josephine told her family about the prophecy,
she was locked in a sack for eight days because
they accused her of consorting with a witch. Sure, so
Josephine is not growing up in the free, flourishing Enlightenment
era of France that some of her contemporaries were. And
(08:30):
because she now had rotted teeth and was very overweight
and her family was completely broke, she was not married
off to a plantation owner's son, and her marriage prospects
were looking very, very bad by the time she was fifteen,
But she had an aunt who had been a marquis
mistress for eighteen years, and the marquis was getting older
(08:52):
and he was worried about the long term security of
his mistress. And Josephine's aunt convinced the marquis and Mary
his son to Josephine. So Josephine goes off to marry
Alexandre de Beauharnay. He is seventeen. He already has a
twenty nine year old mistress. Her name is Madame DeLonge Prey.
(09:17):
Apparently she's very charming and witty. I've never read anything
about Madame Delongere that doesn't make her seem like a
bit but fine. He has a twenty nine year old mistress,
and he is horrified when Josephine gets off the boat.
He is deeply disappointed in her appearance. He's deeply disappointed
(09:39):
in her lack of education. He starts forcing her to
go out to literary salons, of where people immediately make
fun of her for being an idiot. Women say that
she looks like a little girl dressed up in her
mother's clothes, Joseph and Okay, to be fair, I don't
want this to be me. But the literary salons at
(10:02):
this particular time were mostly just discussing Dangerously Asons, which, look,
they were very specific book clubs. I love Dangerously Asons,
but it used four hundred pages of very horny letters
from imaginary aristocrats back and forth. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
If your only takeaway after reading Dangerously Asons was I
think it would be fun to have sex with the
vicant de Valmond. That would be a completely valid contribution,
and indeed all it should.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
What if he's played by Ryan Phillipp exactly?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, what if they made him wear a suit as
a high school student?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, of course, very sexy. I once saw this is
my fun fact. I once saw Dangerously aisms on Broadway
with leab Dreiber in that role, and it doesn't work.
I saw it too. He was not work. He looks
like a dock. I also thought Alan Rickman clips I
was still online if you ever want to look those.
My take on leib Dreiber was I was like, I
think he was going through a divorce at the time,
(11:02):
and I was like, is there a real wine in
the carross? Like he did not seem like engage. He's
a good actor, and it just was not workings and
seemed like he has the finesse of the velmonk. No,
he did not seem sneaky. Yeah it did not work. Yeah,
no he uh he seems he seems like a battle axe.
He doesn't seem like someone who enjoys the secrecy and
power game surroundings. Yeah. So that is my little Broadway
(11:25):
review corner. Please continue. So he's being mocked at this out,
he's being mocked at the salons and in she ends
up having two children by Alexandre and there is Look,
there is a part of me that loves the fact
that Medame Pompadour so thoroughly dominated the public imagination in
(11:45):
terms of what a sexy, desirable woman he is. Alexandri
responded to this by being like, I cannot possibly fuck
let alone love a woman who does not go to
book clubs. I mean that's great. It's like when you
know our culture or what is sexy is a cultural concert.
I think that like in the early two thousands, there's
that Girl's Gone wild, Paris held the thing and then
(12:07):
we got like the smartest sexy and I think that
it's interesting that that was still happening in the seventeen hundred.
It flactuates back and forth, and that is fascinating. Isn't
it fun that women have to shape our very identities
in order to be desirable.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, But Alexandre says that he can not possibly remain
at home with this object who has nothing to say
to him. So again, this is devastating for Josephine, and
he goes off with his mistress, Lord de Longpree, but
not before impregnating Josephine twice. Now when she is having
his second immediately after she has important is number one
(12:42):
nine gene yeah, Eugenie yep. Immediately after she had his
second child, alex decides to divorce her so he can
be with his mistress. In a truly insane response, he
accuses her of infidelity. He says that she is lower
than all the sluts.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
On the earth. Josephine has been nothing but faithful this
entire career. Calling Josephine a slut, I'm sorry also for
using this lay. They say it explicitly in the movie
Napoleon Bade You Well. We'll come to that. Yeah, but
at this point, totally fine, At this point, very very fine, uh,
(13:21):
and again not to slut him, be a slud do whatever. Sure,
at this point she has been nothing but incredibly faithful
to Alexandre. Josephine retires to a convent to wait out
the proceedings for legal separation. A lot of women did this,
(13:42):
getting back to dangerous liaisons. Madame Trouvelle retires to a
convent to escape the advances of the Vicon de velment.
And if you've if you're listening to Noble Blood, if
you've been listening to noble blood, Isabella or Isabella of Angoulem,
retires to a convent after her scandal. Exactly so.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Lots of stylish women are staying at this convent, and
in an almost unheard of turn of events, the judge
actually sides with Josephine during the legal separation and he
agrees that Josephine has been wronged. He orders Alexandre to
take care of his children and to withdraw any accusations
(14:20):
towards Josephine. Alexandre does none of that, but fortunately the
other women at this convent had taken note upon themselves
to give Josephine a makeover, so they teach her how
to use makeup, which she will use a massive amount
of throughout the rest of her life. They also showed
(14:41):
her how to lose weight, mostly by not subsisting entirely
on candy. And the fashions were also changing. Marie Antoinette
was going through her Tea trianon phase right now, so
instead of the huge pompadour roughly hyperfeminine gowns, people were
dressing in much more simple muslin gowns, and that suited
(15:02):
Josephine a lot better and she felt a lot more
comfortable in that. So after her time at the convent,
she went to Fontainebleau where the king had his hunt,
and she charmed the master of the hunt. He invited
her to come along hunting with the various aristocrats that
the king invited. She was able to find a protector
(15:25):
very quickly. I think she had three of them. All
of them were about twenty years older than her. They
were giving him a tremendous amount of jewels. She was
able to take care of her children, and I think
had things continued this way, she probably would have ended
up like her aunt, being a permanent mistress to one
of these men. Except a revolution happens in seventeen eighty nine,
(15:47):
the revolution promising equality for the common people comes and
Alexandra for wanting his miserable, fucking life is a little
bit useful for Josephine.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
He was a noble, but he was also so a
staunt anti royalist.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
He was a vicante. This is stupid. He shouldn't have
done this. But he became a key member of the
National Assembly, representing a group of nobles that believe that
the monarchy should be a ball And of.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Course this ended really famously well and he worked out
great for him. But when the royal family attempted to
flee the country, it was Alexandre who dispatched the writers
to bring him back and a National Assembly that everybody
had to wait until the royal family returned. But they
couldn't get away from this.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
He emerged very briefly as a hero to Paris, and
Josephine is suddenly very much in style. She's being invited everywhere.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
She is seen very.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Briefly as being a hero of the revolution. Unfortunately, the
promise of democracy did not change France's situation at all.
The people who were starving before are still starving, and
by seventeen ninety three, the Reign of Terror, led by
robes Bay had begun, and it was carried out with
the intent of eliminating anyone deemed parasitic on the state,
(17:09):
and of course that includes all royals and all members
of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Oh and Josephine's husband gets the Jophine's husband is guillotine very,
very quickly. It's so fascinating.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I don't want to dwell too much on the Reign
of Terror, but a reign of terror is fascinating to me.
The executions were based on everything. The one that fascinates
me is that some executions happened because people had old
playing cards and it was seen as showing sympathy towards kings.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And sure, if you're playing cards, what you think. One
of the other special horrors with the revolution that always
sticks in my mind, special starring special horrors horrors of
the Reign of Terror, is that a lot of aristocrats
had dogs. Uh so their dogs went wild after they
were dragged to the guillotine, and it meant that rabbit
(18:09):
packs of dogs were roaming the street drinking blood out
of the gutters. So the army had to be dispatched
to start shooting the dogs.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
That's also another I mean, it feels like those stories
are reappearing because a few hundred years earlier, we're going
to get a dog with the beheading of Mary, Queen
of Scones. Famously, when before she went to get beheaded,
she hit her dog in her skirts, so they came out.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
The one that it makes me think of is the
Rwandan genocide, for the government again had to be dispatched
because dogs and so many people were murdered that their
dogs just ran wild on the street. A lot of
them went ravid. This isn't a theory, but I think
this feels self evident. But I think if you have
to dispatch the army to kill all the rabid dogs
(18:57):
roaming your streets, your revolution had failed. You are going
to be remembered very poorly by his stitch.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
True, So we need to fast forward just a little bit,
and Josephine is in prison.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Josephine's in prison. Josephine is at Las Comes. It's one
of the most horrifying prisons in Paris.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
But good news.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Her roommate in her cellmate, I guess in the prison
is Teresa Cabarets. She is the mistress to the revolutionary
John Tallienne. Now, Theresa is pretty angry that her boyfriend
Protector whatever, is in close coats with robes Bier and
yet she's imprisoned. So she sends Talian a dagger and
(19:39):
a letter demanding that he kill robes Ba and free
her immediately. And if he doesn't do this, he's not
a man. And she feels personal shamed that she ever
slept with us, and Italian actually does this, which is
amazing to me.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He's like, okay, ropes here has to go for all
the reasons, but also for this, no very much, specifically
for this and only for this. So when Robesby is
giving a speech at the convention, Talian storms the stage,
waving the dagger Teresa's sent him and shouting down with
this dictator. His co conspirator, pauled de Barras joins him
and Robesby a flees. He tries to suit himself, but
(20:17):
he only succeeds in shattering his job before being dragged
to the guillotine. Italian and Barrass emerged from this as heroes.
Barrass became the head of the new Directorate government. He's
also one of the only remaining super wealthy men in Paris,
and Josephine emerged from prison at Teresa's behest. Teresa, who
has become a hero to the Parisians, has not forgot
(20:41):
her friend. But Josephine emerges to find Paris and ruins.
Most of the homes have been lit a blaze. But
she's popular again. Yeah, and this is about when she'll
meet Napoleon at a part almost Yes, okay, we're coming
to that. The Baron de Frindley wrote at this time
that after the reign of her it was in height
(21:01):
of good manners to be ruined, to have been suspected, persecuted.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And above all imprisoned. People started wearing their hair crop
to immitate prison styles.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Victim for loved dem Yes, my French pronunciation is not
as good as your. It's ribbons around their necks and
not to the guillotine. Josephine's welcome at the extremely exclusive
Balde Victim where I believe that Balde Victim actually happened
all the time. Yes, absolutely, okay, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
There were basically like support groups for people who had
been imprisoned. There were special salons.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
For people who had been in I've just been from
a purely historical standpoint, It was whether whether the actual
like the main bald of victim was a actually happened
or was like a Romantic invention. I mean, I don't know,
you need to really say. My guess and my speculation
is it's like a combination. Like I think people were
having these parties and then I think in the Romantic
(21:58):
era people were like build up their ideas.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Oh nice, only yeah, the speaking of parties, Josephine was
spending an astronomical amound. She was one of the only
women in the city with a carriage at a time
when bread was so scarce that wealthy people brought their
own food to every dinner party because you couldn't expect
other people to have food. Josephine was also deeply in debt.
(22:22):
She's being constantly perceived.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
She's spending out her money on carriages. She's an insane expense.
She's in desperate need of he protector who will cover
her expensive Fortunately, she'd remained very close with Teresa, who's
universally beloved in Paris, and she's now married to Italian
and posting some truly extravagant orgies. So Josephine becomes one
(22:46):
of the Marviliuses of this period. She appears around town,
cladd in only see through Greek style gowns and sandals.
Some of the Marviliuses walked through the streets with their
breasts exposed. Most of them soaked their gowns in water
so they would clan to their bodies before going out.
And around this time, Teresa introduces her to Paulton Barross.
(23:09):
Paul's now the president of the National Assembly. He's the
richest man in Paris. He's able to pay off the
many many.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
People pursuing Josephine for money, and he asks only that
she'll arrange orgies for him. She does in very extravagant style. Apparently,
at these orgies, women dip their breasts in champagne glasses.
They stripped naked and pretended to be jungle cats. They
took off their dresses and wagered on who were the least.
Josephine sat on Deboras's lap the entire time so he
(23:38):
could bondle and have sex with her.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Throughout. Everything's going great, She's enjoying life.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And it was around this time that a twenty two
year old Corsican general appears and it's Napoleon Bonaparte. He
is absolutely agg at the women in Paris. He writes
to her brother, here alone, they deserve to rule. All
the men are mad for them. They think of nothing
but them. They live only for them. A woman needs
(24:06):
to live in Paris for six months to know what
her do is. He has big virgin energy, he has
big virtin He's very very much a virgin. Women also
don't like him. He is a very brilliant military strategist.
He is very uncomfortable to talk to. His technique with
women was to stare at them for many, many minutes
(24:27):
on and did not say anything. Most women found this
very creepy. Sure, but Napoleon was one of Deborasa's proteges.
So he seats him next to Josephine at a seemingly
non orgy related dinner.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Sure, that's what they say. And whenever it tender, it's like, oh,
how do you meet, and it's like they met on tender,
but it's like, oh we met dad friend party, and
so it's like it was a non orgy party.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think this one was a non ergy party because
I think Napoleon would have been very frightened.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, but it's funny to imagine them trying to whitewash
how he met story. Yeah, and Josephine was nice to him.
He says that she's the first woman in Paris who
has been nice to him a lot. She just talked
to him about how she saw his military strategy, was
smart the entire time, and touched his arm. Oh, kid's
(25:16):
interesting that in the movie they make her seem like
an elusive creature of mystery, and it's not that she
was just a very pretty lady who was being nice
to him at dinner, and Napoleon was in love. He
proposes very soon after, and Josephine, to everyone's surprise. I
(25:36):
think they were married six months after meeting yep. And
people kept wondering why she was marrying this man who
was commonly accepted to be a fool, especially because, by
Josephine's own admission, she.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Had only lukewarm feelings towards him. For Us said that
she was motivated entirely by money, and she would be
had her own lover if she could drink gold out
of his skull. But Bross was pretty mad about this,
and Napoleon had so much less money than any other man.
She knew he made fifteen thousand francs a year, and
that's what she was spending on makeup at this point.
(26:13):
And I think, you know, a slightly more pragmatic explanation
is that Josephine is thirty one by this point, Bros
is very unlikely to marry her. She probably is thinking
about her future in a somewhat strategic way. If Napoleon
isn't successful now, he seems like he's on the verge
of becoming very successful. But I think the most charitable
(26:36):
explanation is just that he's a very awkward little foreigner
over awed by Paris, who everybody thinks is awkward and dumb.
And I think he probably reminded her of a younger
version of herself in a way that she felt very
tenderly towards. I'll also say there's something very charming. I
think Napoleon is a very smart man.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I think we can say that I think he's a
bri militia early, you know. In turn ways, I think
that she probably found his intelligence attractive, But would I
also find very attractive is someone who like openly, really
likes you, boss, really look, but she wasn't gonna marry him.
I'm saying, like she was a guy who's like, I
love you, I want to marry you, and I'd be like,
all right, let's get on with it.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I think that's interesting. But certainly after their marriage, he
goes off to Italy. He writes her a constant stream
of letters.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
This is if you are a noble blood listener, listen
to our episode on the Black Count Tom Alexander Duma,
and that'll be like a good companion to this, because
you're like, what was Napoleon off doing in Italy and Egypt?
That episode will be the context. And meanwhile he's over
there Josephine Josephine.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
One of his letters says that if Josephine ever takes
a lover, he will enact Othello style revenge, murdering her
and her lover and himself. This is all of the letters.
This is how they all read.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
He keeps writing things. I feel like I've read these
letters and he's like, if you loved me, you'd write
me twice a day.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Hey, good women would be I don't think constantly. I
find I don't care for Napoleon's letters. I know that
I see I know that they go for millions and
millions of dollars at auction. But what bothers me the
most about them is that there is no teasing, there's
no warmth of familiarity, there's no friendship in those letters.
Napoleon was an aspiring romantic novelist. When he came to parent,
(28:25):
he was trying to write a romantic novel. And I
think in all of his letters, Josephine could be replaced
by a sexy automaton and the letters would read exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it's not very personal.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, I think if you've paid attention to someone's sandwich
preferences and send them a link to a sandwich shop,
you think they'd enjoy it would be more romantic than
anything Napoleon wrote.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Josephine seems like he's just very I mean, he's very
excited about being in love and desperate for I mean,
not to extend the metaphor of conquering, but like to
own and possess. That's this woman. Yes, I have a wife.
I love her, she loves me. I have her. That
is set.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, Josephine says that he does not love her, he
worships her. Yeah, And I think that does get at
some of the difference there.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Now Josephine, while he is away, has taken a lover
Ippoly Charles. Oh, yeah, he.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Was twenty three. He was very, very handsome. He fit
in very well with Josephine's Paris friends. Barros said he
looked like a wigman cruise dummy. Ross is my favorite
person in this entire story, Nabole and meanwhile was in despair.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
He writes.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Barasaid, if Josephine didn't join him in Italy, she was
going to kill himself.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And Josephine's like, no, thanks, I'm not this time. You're correct. Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Barross needed Napoleon to win battles in Italy because France
needs to re establish itself as a country with some
kind of military power. So Barross tells Josephine that he
is throwing a very elaborate dinner for her. He doesn't
she'd throw this dinner apparrellin It's very nice. And afterwards
(30:03):
he picks her up, bundles her into a carriage, and
tells her she has to go to Italy. Now. I
don't know how to explain their relationship at this point,
except they seem to be best friends who hate each other.
The compromise is that they agree that she can bring
it Charles along with her to Italy. So off Josephine
(30:27):
goes to Italy. She seems to somewhat enjoy her time
in Italy, but before long Napoleon has to head on
to Egypt, and he continues the sending letters to Josephine constantly. Meanwhile,
Josephine goes off to take the waters for her health.
She writes to Brass telling him that she hopes he
(30:48):
gets really, really really sick so he can join her.
I love their relationship. And in Egypt, Napoleon is talking
about his wife so constantly that his soldiers say that
virgies on idolatry. He is aimed to Camp, who was
having an affair with Josephine's maid, finally tells him that
Josephine is having an affair. Napoleon is devastated. He writes
(31:10):
his brother that he's going to get a divorce. The
ship carrying his letter is seized and it gets reprinted
and distributed in all the British papers. Oh that's oh,
British people are so excited, they're so happy. This is
a great day for them. Debt collectors assume that Josephine
will be divorced imminently, and they sit on her Deborahs
stops French papers from printing this article. He fights off
(31:33):
all her debt collectors and he gets her the money
to buy a house called Malmaison, where he tells her
to wait this out, and locals report that they often
see her walking. Was a handsome young man who must
be her son.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Uh huh, it's itpoly, It's always her lover. Yeah, yeah uh.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Napoleon decided to even the score by having an affair
with a young soldier's wife named Pauline, who had accompanied
her husband to Egypt. He had no idea how to
initiate this affair because he was the least terming personal life,
so he just did his thing where he stared at
her for the entire hot air balloon launch they were attending.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Pauline said, and she's like, look at that hot air balloon,
it's coming up that way.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Bauleen said that this made her intensely uncomfortable. Then Napoleon
sent an eight of his to describe that he wanted
to have sex with her. She said no and that
she was married, and this made her again very uncomfortable.
Then he sent her a diamond bracelet, and she relented immediately.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, It's like okay, enough is enough? So I
so spassed. Forwarding a little bit, Why does Napoleon ultimately
forgive Josephine.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
So Napoleon returns to Paris. Josephine has been waiting for him.
Unfortunately she's at another house. When he returns, Napoleon ands devastated,
finally finds her at the house she's at. She's sobbing hysterically,
and she sends her two children to go bang on
his door, and she has coached them to say, our
(33:00):
father is already did whilst we lose our second thought.
So she has her two sobbing children doing this. Then
she goes in. She has sex with Napoleon. The next morning,
he announces he's not going to get a divorce. It's
going to be fine. But Napoleon does continue to have
affairs throughout the rest of its marriage. He never again
(33:23):
indulges in the kind of single minded worship of Josephine.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I'll have an illegitimate child. He will have an illegitimate
child later. Now, shortly after this, if we jump ahead
a little bed, Napoleon stages Acuda over from the thro
the dar spoiler alert, Napoleon becomes emperor, crowns himself, bowns.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Josephine, Bross gets excelled to Brussels. He continues to write
Josephine constantly. Josephine never writes him back again. Nic What
did he ever do other than end the reign of
terror and try to have a democracy. Well, you can't
have orgies and bail Josephine out of every problem.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
See for him. You can't be one of the main
guys when there's a new emperor. You got it, you know,
all right, dark lens one, the one truly lovely man
in this story. So Josephine and Napoleon moving to the
decrepit to Luis's palace. On the gates of that palace
hung a sign from the revolution that read, on the
tenth of August seventeen ninety two, royalty was abolished in
(34:22):
France and will never return. The first thing Napoleon did
was scrub away all revolutionary side. He said he did
not like to see that shit around, and he began
referring to Louis the sixteenth as the good Louis the sixteenth. Well,
I do think, I mean not to step on this
and to agree. I think that part of Napoleon's that
(34:43):
claim to power was re establishing the old, the bad Revolution,
the good power of France. And I mean, if you
think back, if you as a listener are sort of
imagining the imagery and architecture and fashion and furnish furnishings
that we associate with Napoleon, and it's very gilded, it's
very regal. It's like red velvet and it als.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
At one point Josephine had a dress that was covered
entirely with real rose petals.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I she had a dress that was made entirely of
peacock feathers.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Josephine also bought nine hundred dresses a year, five times
more than Marie Antoinette ever bought.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I read a thing that she never wore the same
pair of stockings twice. Well, that's smart, I mean, they
really that makes sense. But also in her defense, I
think Napoleon maybe she went a little far, but I
think he was very much advocating for like, we have
to play this part. We took power by force, so
we have to present power.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
They brought back people to talk about how everything used
to be done at the court so they could try
to mimic it. Now, Josephine was never comfortable was this.
She was sleeping in Marie Antoinette's chambers and she claimed
that she could hear the Queen's ghost asking her what
she was doing in her bed.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So creepy.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Also, around this time, Napoleon declared that French women needed
to learn obedience, so he rolled back women's rights enormously.
Husbands could now imprison their wise for infidelity. Also, and
unrelated to the sexism aspect of this, I just want
to remind people that Napoleon and France is the only
country in history to ever reinstates like great yep.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
People thought it was because of Josephine's influence, because she
grew up on a plantation and she sure was comfortable.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I mean I also think it was partly because Napoleon.
I mean, they just needed like them. I don't think
he cared about the revolutionary ideals. I think he was
driven by like cold economic prospects, absolute lust for power,
power and money. Yeah, so that's not good. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Madame de Stelle, who adored Napoleon at the beginning of
his reign, and wrote in letters saying that she should
be his mistress rather than this insignificant woman Josephine, which
Napoleon was very uninterested and he despised intellectual women.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Really. Oh yes, yeah uh.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Her move with men was to ask them who their
favorite woman in history was, so I have a lively
conversation with them.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
My favorite Madame de Stele quote that I feel like
I come back to a lot is and I'm paraphrasing,
but the one must in life choose between boredom and suffering.
That's very depressed, I know. And as to adult what
am I called it? Contentment? Contentment is better than boredon.
But isn't that just like very insightful?
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, she was a very insightful woman who when she
asked Napoleon that had human reply, whichever woman bore the
most children? Madame de still you shortly after this going
up to flee the country. The censorship put that heads
so horrified. But Pompadour is back in full force. The
Marquis de Sade is imprisoned shortly after the publishing of
(37:49):
juliet which we have an episode on you doing an
episode on Juliette. No, you're doing Justine Angeliat. We've done
the Marquis de Sade, so if you are a listener,
you know all about the Marquis Decoud's imprisonment and his
long suffering wife got his poor wife. You read much?
Merchi De said, not on purpose. I read some for
that episode and I was I literally, I think I
(38:11):
said in the episode. I was like, I'm not quoting
any of this. I'm not recommending it. I don't find
it pleasant. I think it's like a the equivalent of
like a shock comic. It's a shot comic. I actually
loved Juliet as a proto feminist piece about who comes
out on top. But it's pornography. It's nothing I would
(38:32):
recommend any any esteemed listeners of this show.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
But this is basically the end of female intellectuals in France,
where Louis the fifteenth had consulted with Madame Pompadour all
through the seven years, or what Napoleon liked was for
Josephine to sit in front of him in total silence
while he thought about military matters.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
She was a gilded statue.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
She was a beautiful statue for him, and at the coronation,
Napoleon obviously oh, the Catholic Church is back too. Oh yeah,
we've rolled back everything the Revolution tried to accomplish. So
the Pope is there for Napoleon's coronation. But Napoleon crowns himself,
we assume all listeners know, and he also crowns Josephine.
(39:19):
And one of my small comforts of this is that
there was one spectator the coronation that saw Josephine walking
down the aisle in her finery and said, oh, look
there's barasis whore. Oh sorry, I don't love Josephine that much.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
No, she's not interesting, but she's also not I think
the important thing about history is you don't have to
like everyone any feel the fierce loyalty to her, but
I do to some female historical figures. I think she
is an amazing survivor. Well, to fast forward again a
little bit, Obviously, Josephine probably in part thanks to her
(39:57):
age and also the toxic makeup she was wearing, and
also the fact that she had been using contracept contraceptive
douches for years and she had broken her pelvis. So
for all of these factors combine, and she can't bear children.
She can't bear Napoleon in air, and so reluctantly they divorce.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
They divorce. She Napoleon Mary's nineteen year old Marie Louise
in eighteen ten. They're nice Catholic princess, a nice Catholic princess.
The first meeting was arranged at the Chateau de Compienne,
where Louis the sixteens met Marie Antoinette for the first time.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Like Marie Antoinette, Marie Louise had to because he really
just wants to be Louis the sixteenth at this point
had to get rid of all of her French clothing
before Austrian Austrian clothing before crossing.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Into France, and she had to get rid of her dog,
just like Marie Antoinette. And she hated this and was
mad about it.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
And as soon as Napoleon was exiled to Elbas, she
never wrote him again. I went off Garla. She's like,
this isn't my bargain. She did her job, she gave
him a son.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Meanwhile, Josephine retires to Malmaison, her house. She is given
an allowance of three million francs as well as four
thousand dollars to go exclusively to her garden. Now, Josephine
got really into plants at one point. It's one of
her main accomplishments. She introdusing the concept of English gardens
(41:25):
to Versailles and malnabels On became an incredibly beautiful home.
Her granddaughter recalls wandering around eating sugarcane on a rounds,
just like a nice grandmother. But Josephine was inconsolable. She
said that sometimes it seems as though I am dead
and that all that is left is a faint sensation
(41:45):
of knowing that I no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
I mean, yeah, imagine feeling. I mean it's literally redundancy,
but it's the moment. It's like if you get laid
off and they're like it's not personal, but it's like
it's the most personal thing of her. All I done and.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Eighties a crippling redundance, I think because she was not valued.
And again we're coming back to Pompadoor. Pandadar also has
to stop being the king's mistress, but her retirement was
getting to still retirement is instead of having sex nine
times a day, I'm just gonna talk about politics and
all of the enlightened mind writers are going to come
(42:19):
and read me their drafts and I'll.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Give them advice. I mean, that's the horrible thing where
it's like, if you're a woman and your only value
is child bearing or being sexually attractive, then you go
to jobulate out.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And Josephine was still seen as a treasure to some
of the Allies. The Czar of Russia came to visit
her at Malmaison frequently, and but she was never happy again.
Josephine's overriding emotions seems to be despair at this point
in her life, and in eighteen fourteen, she caught a
cold and lapsed into a delirium. Supposedly she could be
(42:52):
heard muttering Napoleon Elba, King of Rome. Just before she died,
she insisted on being dressed in her pink sat morning
gown and rubies in case anyone important came in to
visit Ah, and she likely died pneumonia, though her maid
said that she died of grief at the age of
fifty one.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Fifty one very young. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of
this tragic life. And I'm so glad you brought up
Madame de Pompadour in comparison. Well, I think it is
such an interesting commentary on the revolution that they did
it and now everything is the same, but everything is worse.
And I think that when people view Napoleon and Josephine
as this like great romance, like, I think it's it's
(43:34):
a false image. I don't even think it works well
in the movie. Now.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
I think you can take so many creative liberties when
you're making a movie. But I also think I think
a lot about the fact that these people didn't read.
And I think one thing that does come out of
reading a great deal, at least hopefully, is a kind
of healthy self awareness and a sense of humor above yourself.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
And Josephina and Napoleon had absolutely no senses of humor.
Very is here. Yeah, they were deeply serious people, I
do think in terms of a noble Blood epilogue. The
one weird detail about her life that I always find
sort of morbidly fascinating is that when she felt her
(44:18):
position with Napoleon slipping a little, she had her daughter
Hortense marry Napoleon's brother Louis, who she hated. It's just
everybody agreed. Louis was all, yeah, that's exactly why people
needed Napoleon to divorce Josephine because we're like, we can't
have the power going to his awful brother exactly. Nobody
wanted Louis to be emperor, so like imagine Napoleon's stepdaughter
(44:38):
then becoming his sister in law. It's just wild.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I mean, there's a lot of inter family marriage at
this point, just in some desperate attempt to preserve power,
even with Josephine. Oh but.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah, no, I.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Feel the impressive Josephine was able to survive at all.
I think it's interesting that she was able to use
her sexuality in that way, and that her sexuality was
a thing that was very much created and not innate
to her. She was not born incredibly beautiful the way
we hear about some of the powerful women from this period.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Were, and.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
That's you know, that's obviously something that is worthy of
respect and such a survival tool, and that's very very interesting.
I think because Napoleon hated intellectual women, it's a little
unsatisfying to try to look at more of Josephine's accomplishments.
But I could also be wrong. As Ridley Scott said,
(45:42):
were you there, then you don't fucking know.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I was not there. And I am sure there are
scholars of Josephine who would uh set me.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Set me to rights, and tell me that she had
a fascinating and rich inner life. He just wasn't as
evident as it might have been with some other historical women.
And one theme that I've found always so fascinating in
Noble Blood is this stark juxtaposition, this like tragic juxtaposition
(46:14):
I've found between incredible glamour, like these people spending exorbitant
amount of money, spent eight hundred dollars a year on
eight hundred francs a year on perfume when the average
Parisian families income was six hundred francs.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
So this just like extraordinary glamour in concert with these
tragic mechanisms and feeling trapped. I just find it very interesting.
Is this reinforcing idea where it's like it's a cliche
that money doesn't buy you happiness and power doesn't buy
you happiness. But it's like I think we as audience
members and podcast listeners and writers are drawn to power
(46:49):
and money and glamour, and then all the more interesting
when there's this like deeply tragic undercurrent to it. It
is a deeply tragic under curid. Yeah, no, we see her.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Look.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
I think, at least by the standards of the time,
Josephine could count herself as someone who was deeply loved. Yeah,
she obviously ended this a millionaire many many times over.
She had a very beautiful home, and she had two
children who seemed very devoted to her. This isn't a
tragic story. It's just a story about the limitations that
(47:21):
were placed on women at that time, which to me
do feel especially tragic if you believe that the revolution
was supposed to create some kind of a quality.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
I think that is a beautiful note to end on, Jennifer,
Where can the good people find you?
Speaker 4 (47:35):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (47:36):
They should find me on threads because I don't so well,
No one should. Nobody should. It's Jen Ashley Wright on Threads,
of course, pund oh as. My most recent book is
Madame Ristelle, a History of New York's most fabulous, fearless,
and infamous abortionists and you can let it perver book
(48:01):
sourceld fantastic, Thank you so much, thank you. Noble Blood
is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild
(48:23):
from Aaron mank. Noble Blood is created and hosted by
me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston,
Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The
show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima
Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers
(48:48):
Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Dana Schwartz
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