August 22, 2024 • 30 mins
When Asma Khan was in her 20s, she couldn’t even boil an egg. By the age of 45, Asma led an all-female kitchen staff at her acclaimed London restaurant, Darjeeling Express. Today, Asma is an award-winning chef, a bestselling cookbook author and a fierce advocate for women in professional kitchens. Asma joins the Bright Side to discuss how her upbringing in India ignited her to revolutionize the culinary world.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello Sunshine, Hey Vesties. Today on the bright Side, we're
sitting down with trailblazing chef rest for tour and cookbook
author Ozma Khan.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You write your old story, you dictate what you want
to do with your life. You are not born to
crawl through life. You were born to fly free.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
See Ozma's the visionary behind London's one and only Indian
restaurant with an all female team. The daughter of royal
parents in Calcutta, India, Ozma's had a fire in her
belly since the day she was born. But here's the twist.
She didn't learn how to cook until much later in life.
Now she's igniting a revolution in the culinary world, one
(00:44):
that places women front and center in professional kitchens, and
today she's sharing her recipe for change with us. It's Thursday,
August twenty second. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to
share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day. Simone,
on a scale of one to ten, where your cooking
skills at?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I don't want to be too overconfident here. I feel
like a seven. Maybe seven, that's pretty good, seven eight
on some days, catch me on the holidays, maybe I'm
an eight.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
How about you?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So wait, if we're talking like one to Ozma conn
or Jada laurentis you're a seven.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I mean you didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
That's thinking ten is professional executive chef.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
No, okay, So if you're comparing me to a professional chef,
maybe I'll say I'm a six. But I think I'm
a pretty good home chef, home cook. I'll say that
that's awesome. How about you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm sort of at a one. I rate myself a
one because I stop burning toast. But I make breakfast,
I make eggs. I can make great protein pancakes and
sometimes a panini or a sandwich. But that's really as
far as it goes for me.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Can you boil an egg?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I learned how to boil an egg. But that's funny
that you ask, because today's guest couldn't even boil an
egg when she was in her twenties, and now she's
one of the brightest stars in London's culinary scene. Ozma
Kahn is an award winning chef, best selling cookbook author
and the first British chef to be featured in Netflix's
(02:26):
show Chef's Table. She's the founder of one of the
city's top rated restaurants, Darjeeling Express. It's where she serves
up delicious Indian food.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I mean that is so cool, not just the fact
that it's run by an all female staff, but the
ages of the women here. It's just such an underrepresented
portion of this industry and Ozma's journey is incredible. She
was born to Indian royalty in Kolkatta, where she faced
the harsh reality of being a second daughter, a role
that's often seen as a burden in Indian society. And
(02:59):
these women who are second daughters, they're often completely forgotten
by their loved ones and by the culture at large.
She did not let that stigma define her. In fact,
she actively rejected it and reclaimed it because she went
on to become the very first woman in her family
to attend college. Then, when she left India for Cambridge
in nineteen ninety one to live with her husband, she
(03:20):
didn't know how to cook. I mean, as we mentioned,
she literally couldn't even boil an egg. But the aromas,
the spices and comforts of India kept drawing her back.
She made the kitchen her classroom and learned to master
the dishes of her childhood. Then, with her newfound culinary skills,
she said, she became quote the Queen of the kitchen,
all while getting her PhD in Constitutional law from King's
(03:44):
College in London, growing her family and creating this beautiful,
thriving community in the UK.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
You Know, something I love about her story is that
she started her restaurant with community at the center. She
started hosting these dinner parties and she was doing them
behind her husband's back, which is so funny. And these
supper clubs eventually became her restaurant, The Darjeeling Express, and
the women that she invited to her home, nanny's and
(04:11):
housewives that she met at her kids' school who were
also immigrants, became the chefs at the restaurant. You know,
in today's world, we talk a lot about women supporting
women and its almost colloquialism now, but what does it
really mean.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Ozma Khn lives it. It's so inspiring. And now she's
got a new cookbook that's slated to come out next
year and it's meant to be a masterclass on building flavor.
But all right, enough from us, let's bring her in.
Ozma Khn, welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
You are named one of the coolest people in food
and Wine by Business Insider in twenty nineteen, and just
this past year, your career as a restaurant tour landed
you on Time Magazine's one hundred most Influential People. So
I cannot believe that you did not learn to cook
until adulthood. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I just love to eat. Every family needs someone like me.
I love to eat. And I never imagined that I
would leave India, that I would live in Cambridge and
have to cook for myself. I actually thought I would
end up being a princess and you know, marry some
prince and he would take care of me and cook
for me. I'm being flippant, but I actually just didn't
(05:28):
think that I would reach a situation where I would
be on my own and I would have to cook.
And my kismuth was different. And I left Calcutta to
join my academic husband. Then I ended up in Cambridge
not knowing how to cook. It was such a huge move.
It was now prouting. The only person I knew was
my husband, and that too. I just found met him
(05:49):
effectively before I got married. I had an arranged marriage,
which is different from a forced marriage. Okay, arrange marriage
is like go on speed dating, but your entire family
is involved this thing. You know. There's how in Indian
arranged marriages work. And I think a lot of people
today don't understand what it was thirty five years ago.
You couldn't call home. It was very expensive to make
(06:13):
even a short call. Traveling was expensive. You didn't see
the face of your parents, of your siblings. You didn't
hear voices. I wrote letters to my father and he
wrote to me. Felt like I had been banished. I
felt it was almost like a berievement. See today, if
you miss your family, you can even skype your dog
(06:36):
in Delhi today. But I couldn't talk to anyone. It
was a real tough, isolating, difficult time.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I want to talk about your upbringing a little bit
more Asthma, because I feel like it's so important to
connect the darts between where you came from and the
environment that you're creating for other women and food today.
I mean, your cried when you were born. How would
you describe what it's like growing up as a privileged
woman in a patriarchal agrarian society.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, the interesting thing is, I think that my mother
was overwhelmed. She felt she'd let down her mother. She
was one of five daughters. I know she cried when
I was born, but after that my mother really loved me,
but the extended family was not so nice. It also
did not help that I was, apart from being the
(07:32):
second daughter, I was dark skinned. I was a fat
little girl. People would constantly tell me I was ugly
and fat and dark, that nobody would marry me from
the clan, which turned out to be true. But it
was tough because I wasn't even attractive as far as
the family was concerned. There was no bonus in having
(07:54):
someone like me around. It really hit home when I
was writing my last book and I went through the
entire family archives looking for a picture of me and
my mother. Because the book was in my mother's name,
I had to use a photograph of my mother pregnant
with me. Because no one ever felt that photograph needed
(08:17):
to be taken of me and my mother. It didn't exist.
And it is just these little things when it's so
wrong that a lot of families extended families, grandparents, uncles,
and aunts don't. They just are not kind and they
(08:39):
don't understand that they leave scars so deep. For me,
those cars is where the fire came from. I wanted
to set the whole world alight with those cars that
I carry today. They never went so it was complicated.
My parents loved me a lot. My siblings are really
(09:00):
close to me. My sister who everybody adored because she
was so beautiful. She was this beautiful princess with long hair.
But the game changer was every time people were being
cruel to me, she would hold my hand and tell me,
you are the warrior princess. You the world would shake
(09:20):
when they hear your name. The fact that everybody's favorite
thought I was beautiful, that I was powerful, that I
would become something changed my life. And I was so young.
I realized then solidarity of a woman behind another woman,
a girl telling another girl, go and do it. You're beautiful,
(09:41):
You're going to be powerful, You're going to be strong.
It just made me realize. It changed everything for me,
and I'm so grateful for my sister.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Stay with us, everyone, We're taking a quick break and
then we'll be right back with the Asthma Khan, and
we're back talking food and community with Ozma Khan. The
pain and hurt from your childhood set you want a
(10:13):
path to becoming a change maker in the culinary world.
I mean, like you said, those scars put a fire
in your bones. Your restaurant our Jealing Express, has gotten
high praise from food critics and earned you a spot
on chef's table. And your kitchen is run by an
all women team of housewives who have been with you
since the supper club you created in your own home.
(10:33):
But I actually heard you say that this was not deliberate,
which was surprising to me. How did this team of
women come together?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I mean, it's very easy for me to now create
this narrative that oh I wanted it. I just wanted
women who could cook like me. Intuitively, instinctively, we are
a deeply patriarchal society. The men who are now cooking
on stage in Indian restaurant scene, everyone sees is identical.
(11:01):
They learned as a professional cook in culinary school and
they were trained in five star hotels in India. They
never learned with their mothers and grandmothers. Why would the
boys be in the kitchen the boys would sit on
the table and be served with the men. Women ate
last girls. Eight least we served the boys. They never
(11:22):
were there in the kitchen. You didn't have boys hanging
around and helping. I cooked with my heart and I
weigh with my eyes and my hands. This is why
I had to have women helping me, who did this instinctively.
And when you look into the open kitchen, there are
nine women cooking. The average age of the women cooking
(11:45):
is fifty. And when I wanted to open a restaurant
with my team who had been working with me in
supper clubs, it was all the women and all the
men told me, oh, no, you need professionals. Why is
it that life experience doesn't mean that I'm professional?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I also am not a chef. I never called myself
a chef. If I want to call myself something fancy,
I can call myself a doctor. I have a PhD
in British constitutional law. Chef is a vocational qualification. None
of us have that. But we know how to cook.
And yet everyone told me your restaurant's going to fail.
(12:23):
You cannot open a restaurant just with women who've never
worked professionally. Wow. Look at me. Now, I'd done pretty good.
So it's just at that time everybody was so negative.
And I understand why, because there wasn't anyone like me around.
They felt I was not going to be successful. I
(12:43):
was absolutely sure I would be successful. I believed to
the women, and the women believed in me. Such a
powerful collective of women, we couldn't fail.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I also can't help but think about how that mirrors
your experience with your sister right, Like you really experienced
sisterhood and believed in it, and so you brought it
to the forefront. My question for you is, these women
in their fifties and sixties who are the backbone of
your restaurant, what lessons do you think that other chefs
(13:16):
and other kitchens could learn from them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Patience that's the most important thing. You should be cooking
to heal, not to impress, and give every ingredient, every
spice the time it needs to shine. We have a
very small menu, All the spices are lid. I really
believe in flavor. In fact, that's what my new book
(13:39):
I've just written is on, is just bringing in every
ingredient so that every ingredient shines. That is our food,
Our food is not a meat and too vedge or
a whole bowl of something. Every bite tastes the same.
There's a huge variation in our food.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
One of the things that I've heard you talk about
in in terms of your home and learnings is from
your dad on chef's table. You talk about how he
imprinted this concept of social responsibility for you because you
had more than most people did, and he said it
was your job to make sure to give back and
uplift other people. And so when I think about your kitchen,
(14:20):
I'm wondering what choices you've made that ensure your staff
meet both their family and their professional obligations.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
The double shift, which is the backbone of all restaurants,
is almost created to exclude women and also exclude empathetic
men in this country. In England, when you go into work,
it's dock. You leave at six thirty seven. Often you
know over the minter bances dock. You are in an
(14:48):
airless space with artificial lighting. Because most restaurant kitchens are
in the basement and you are there till midnight. You
go back. You don't have social life. We allow women
to have two ships. They pick. They can come in
the morning and they leave at two thirty because they've
(15:08):
got to pick up the children at three thirty. You
come in for the first shift, or you come in
for the second shift. It come starts at five. There's
nothing happening I can guarantee to you. In a kitchen
between lunch and dinner service, often the menu is separate.
It's not brain surgery where the surgeon cannot leave for
a second. Yeah, it is boiling potatoes. You are prepping,
(15:30):
we're cutting onions. You know, we're getting things ready for
dinner service. This is a culture created by men for men,
and this is why it excludes people who have families.
What we lose are unbelievable women.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, we lose real talent.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, it's a brain drain. We lose our future leaders.
And if some of us don't speak up now. And
this is why I am so grateful like an opportunity
to speak to you, because hopefully in my accented voice,
people listen to my story and understand that we need
to change things. Not just for ourselves. I want to
(16:11):
change things for that generation of girls who are not
yet born.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Have you seen other kitchens adopt your model because it's
been so successful in London.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Not yet, but I live in Hope. I hope that
people are brave. There are more women who are opening restaurants,
but they don't have this model. And I hope that
people are brave because of course everybody wants to be successful.
We are extremely successful. I'm saying this because not out
of arrogance. I want people to know you can have
(16:43):
a business where the bottom line is not money, but
the bottom line is uplifting women. The bottom line is
about community, about justice, about food justice, and about the
politics of food. You can have all of these as
important basis on which you set up your business. It
doesn't mean that you will fail. You will still succeed.
(17:05):
There's overwhelming pressure to conform. But I am determined to
try and have this conversation because I am sowing a harvest.
I will not reap. I will probably not be alive
to see that time when women walk into kitchens and
they own it that they're not afraid of going into
the walk in fridge, they're not afraid of being touched
(17:27):
against their consent. I will not live. But every day
I am trying my best to clear the pathways for
those young women, even those who are not born yet
I want them to know you are free and you
should do this and do not allow others to shut
(17:48):
that flame off inside you. I really want women to
be passionate, and it is all our duty to speak
up to encourage others.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's very important, so clear that that flame that was
placed inside of you asthma has evolved into a real
soft spot for other second daughters. You have the Second
Daughter's Fund to support forgotten little girls in India, and
you are just imbuing the women in your kitchens with
(18:19):
such dignity and pride. You plucked them out of their
domestic roles where they were nannies, they were care workers,
they were housewives, and you said, no, I believe in you.
You can do this. And I want to know how
are these women and their communities changed because of you,
because of all this work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
When I was on a call, my first call about
being on Chef's table, the first thing I said is
I need to show my team, and there was silence.
I thought I'd got dropped out of the call. They said, no, oh,
the chef in chef's table. Let us to show that team.
This is the big difference. I have to show that team,
(18:59):
because I cannot live, I cannot breathe, I cannot be
free if I know that I've taken their labor, their love,
their patients, their skills and claimed it to be my success.
Too many founders, too many leaders, do this. I stand
on the shoulders of giants, my incredible team. How could
(19:21):
I not show them? And in chef's table. For those
who've seen it, you will remember that scene where the
women are against the blue wall. Their name is there,
but the name of the village. I needed that to go.
It made a huge impact. When they went back, the
whole village turned up in the station to receive them
with drums. These were the girls whose birds were lamented,
(19:44):
where the mothers were made to feel humilated because a
girl was born in that house. These girls went back
as heroes. And this is just it stills. I get
emotional because watching this happen in my lifetime, that we
are getting the honor for what we are. Because everybody
(20:07):
wants our rotie. If it's free, they will pay a
man to cook, but we must do it for free.
I want to cook for free. I also want to
be paid. I also want this to be a profession.
I want that to be dignity, and no one should
shut the door on your face saying you're a woman,
you're older. This is not the law of the jungle. Yes,
(20:30):
I may not be able to chase a deer and
catch it, but I can cook, so I should be
given an opportunity.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
We're taking a quick break, but stay with us because
we'll be right back with chef, restaurant tour and cookbook
author Ozma Khan. And we're back with Ozma Khan.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Asthma.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
You mentioned the politics of food earlier, and people see
food as this way of bringing people together. Often hear
that phrase let's break bread. But you say that food
and culture has been separated, that people don't actually want
to see the people behind the food.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Sometimes. Yes, so we are in a situation where food
and culture is separated. You have a table full of food,
my food, food off my heritage. The table is groaning
with food, but there isn't a seat on that table
for me. I will not allow you to eat my food,
to listen to my music, to wear my fabric if
(21:28):
you do not accept me. You build walls to keep
the Mexicans out, but you want to have tacos. Recently,
we've had issues with, you know, riots on the streets
in London. Everybody says, oh, we all love Indian food, chicken, tikamasala,
but then they don't accept us. And this is the
(21:49):
thing that the easiest thing to take of an immigrant
community is their food. But the food is my dna,
it is my breath, it is my heartbeat. You take
away my food and you dismiss my people. This is unacceptable.
And there's so much bullying that happens in schools where
(22:09):
children of different ethnicity in their pack lunch, they may
take rice, they may take food that for other children
may smell unusual. And then there's oh, you smell your
food smells. When a very young child is told their
food smells, it is as if they are smelling. It's
the other ing of people when they're very young using food,
(22:31):
and then later on the taking away of our food.
And I want everybody to cook my food. You can
be from Mars. Please cook my food. But I want
you to understand the stories of my women. I want
you to understand the ingredients that went in. I want
you to understand the beat with which we crush the spices.
(22:53):
Please listen to our stories, talk to us. Don't dismiss
us and take away our food. It's very important. And
the problem is that for too long this has been happening.
For too long, it's been happening. We need to stop
that because with that lack of respect for our culture,
the food just goes and we lose a very important
(23:15):
part of our identity.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
There's room at the table for my food, but not
for me. Is in analogy I think for so many
marginalized groups. Yes, you know you started your business later
in life, and you started it after starting your family,
after going through years of school. You mentioned you're a doctorate.
In what ways do you think that starting your career
(23:37):
as a restaurant tour was actually beneficial to you?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I think it is the most powerful decade of my
life when I was in my forties. That's not how
society sees it. Everybody worships the youth and the creative
and the young in many cultures, and this is in
the West and the East. The moment you are in
your life late forties, you are not seen as dynamic,
(24:02):
not creative. When I went to the bank, I just
want to open a t shop downstairs near my house.
They laughed at me. And they said, oh, what a
lovely hobby. Call us to your house, missus Kahan. I
cried all the way home. I was tongue tied. I
could not say a name of a single woman who
started in her forties, who did something she had not
(24:23):
done before, who was passionate, who was creative, who is dynamic,
but didn't have a piece of paper a certificate, and
she was in her forties. I began at forty five.
In every sport where there's baseball, a cricket, we have
a second innings. I am in my second innings. I
will hit every ball out of the park. My team
(24:47):
will win. I will not get a chance to bat again.
You can't defeat me. You cannot defeat powerful women in
their forties, the collective of women who have all on
so many times, we have scarred, we are bruised. All
of you only know me when I became successful. You
were not there when I was ridiculed and laughed at,
(25:10):
when the doors were slammed on my face from the ashes.
I have risen to be this person. Who is that
bird we have my father's to always say, Ausma, be
that bird who sings before dawn in the darkness tell
everybody light is going to come. Be so powerful and
(25:33):
so confident that you always know dawn will follow night.
The night is never endless. And I think all of
us should be that we should tell the stories of
hope and tell women that when everybody pushes you, boxes
you in one corner and tells you that you are
past it, tell them your light is coming, your night
(25:55):
is over. And I feel such a sense of joy.
I know every day I live one day less. I
want to be that person who, through my hope, gives
others hope.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I need you in my ear every morning. I just
need you to give me a daily pep talk so
that I can get out of bed and feel confident,
because when I as I'm listening to you speak, it's
like this incredibly moving motivational material that just is so energizing.
You have been the light for those women who are
(26:30):
in your kitchen. And I want to talk about some
specific ways that you've recommended that other chefs in the
industry and restaurateurs go about making change. And you say
that this is something that we can all do. Take
a chance on someone even if they aren't fully qualified.
Why why is that so important?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You can teach people's skills. You cannot teach attitude. You
cannot teach them resilience. That doesn't happen. So if they
are not fully qualified and they don't have all the skills,
you can teach them, you can guide them, you can
hup them. I don't know how to cook. I'm pretty
decent cook now. It took a bit a while, but
(27:10):
I goot that, so I understand. I love skills. But
the passion and the love for food, the desire to
understand my culinary heritage, my respect for women who cooked.
This cannot be taught. You need to feel it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
When I think about the kinds of conversations that we
want to have on our show, The bright Side, you
are like straight up the middle because you are knocking
your second act out of the park. And that's something
that we talk about a lot, is transformation, reinvention. And
I think one of the reasons why we feel it's
important to talk about that is because our society, our
world is obsessed with the expiration dates for women. Society
(27:49):
loves to tell us what we can and can't do
after a certain age. So what would you say to
anyone listening who feels it might be too late for them.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Do not allow anyone to label you, to put a
badge on you, to put you into a box. I
tell everybody there's no box big enough. I will be
who I want to be. I am the captain of
my ship. You don't get on my ship and tell
me where to go. You don't do that. I think
this is so important. We are allowed, we are pushed
(28:17):
to one side. We allow people to dictate to us.
Even well beinging friends, female friends will always kind of
You're the smart one, You're the nerdy one, you're the
techy one. You are none of these. You are every
day you can be a new person. You write your
own story. The world should not write your story. You
(28:40):
write your story. You dictate what you want to do
with your life. You are not born to crawl through life.
You were born to fly free. If everybody else tells
you where to go, this is not your destiny. We
all have a beautiful story, and I think that you
(29:02):
embrace that. And there's a little voice inside us. Let's
shut down everybody, shut down all that noise and listen
to that voice that is telling you who you really are.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Ozma, thank you so much. This has been truly one
of my favorite conversations we've had so far.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you, Thank you so much, Ozma. Ozma Kahn is
the chef and owner of the Darjeeling Express in London
and an author of multiple esteemed cookbooks.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're popping off with
the hosts of the Go Touch Grass podcast, Millie Tamaraz
and Elise Morales. Listen and follow the bright Side on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I'm Simone Voice. You can find me at simone Voice
on Instagram and.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Tiktok'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
That's r O b A. Y.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hello Sunshine, Hey Vesties. Today on the bright Side, we're
sitting down with trailblazing chef rest for tour and cookbook
author Ozma Khan.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You write your old story, you dictate what you want
to do with your life. You are not born to
crawl through life. You were born to fly free.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
See Ozma's the visionary behind London's one and only Indian
restaurant with an all female team. The daughter of royal
parents in Calcutta, India, Ozma's had a fire in her
belly since the day she was born. But here's the twist.
She didn't learn how to cook until much later in life.
Now she's igniting a revolution in the culinary world, one
(00:44):
that places women front and center in professional kitchens, and
today she's sharing her recipe for change with us. It's Thursday,
August twenty second. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to
share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day. Simone,
on a scale of one to ten, where your cooking
skills at?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I don't want to be too overconfident here. I feel
like a seven. Maybe seven, that's pretty good, seven eight
on some days, catch me on the holidays, maybe I'm
an eight.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
How about you?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So wait, if we're talking like one to Ozma conn
or Jada laurentis you're a seven.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I mean you didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
That's thinking ten is professional executive chef.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
No, okay, So if you're comparing me to a professional chef,
maybe I'll say I'm a six. But I think I'm
a pretty good home chef, home cook. I'll say that
that's awesome. How about you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm sort of at a one. I rate myself a
one because I stop burning toast. But I make breakfast,
I make eggs. I can make great protein pancakes and
sometimes a panini or a sandwich. But that's really as
far as it goes for me.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Can you boil an egg?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I learned how to boil an egg. But that's funny
that you ask, because today's guest couldn't even boil an
egg when she was in her twenties, and now she's
one of the brightest stars in London's culinary scene. Ozma
Kahn is an award winning chef, best selling cookbook author
and the first British chef to be featured in Netflix's
(02:26):
show Chef's Table. She's the founder of one of the
city's top rated restaurants, Darjeeling Express. It's where she serves
up delicious Indian food.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I mean that is so cool, not just the fact
that it's run by an all female staff, but the
ages of the women here. It's just such an underrepresented
portion of this industry and Ozma's journey is incredible. She
was born to Indian royalty in Kolkatta, where she faced
the harsh reality of being a second daughter, a role
that's often seen as a burden in Indian society. And
(02:59):
these women who are second daughters, they're often completely forgotten
by their loved ones and by the culture at large.
She did not let that stigma define her. In fact,
she actively rejected it and reclaimed it because she went
on to become the very first woman in her family
to attend college. Then, when she left India for Cambridge
in nineteen ninety one to live with her husband, she
(03:20):
didn't know how to cook. I mean, as we mentioned,
she literally couldn't even boil an egg. But the aromas,
the spices and comforts of India kept drawing her back.
She made the kitchen her classroom and learned to master
the dishes of her childhood. Then, with her newfound culinary skills,
she said, she became quote the Queen of the kitchen,
all while getting her PhD in Constitutional law from King's
(03:44):
College in London, growing her family and creating this beautiful,
thriving community in the UK.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
You Know, something I love about her story is that
she started her restaurant with community at the center. She
started hosting these dinner parties and she was doing them
behind her husband's back, which is so funny. And these
supper clubs eventually became her restaurant, The Darjeeling Express, and
the women that she invited to her home, nanny's and
(04:11):
housewives that she met at her kids' school who were
also immigrants, became the chefs at the restaurant. You know,
in today's world, we talk a lot about women supporting
women and its almost colloquialism now, but what does it
really mean.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Ozma Khn lives it. It's so inspiring. And now she's
got a new cookbook that's slated to come out next
year and it's meant to be a masterclass on building flavor.
But all right, enough from us, let's bring her in.
Ozma Khn, welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
You are named one of the coolest people in food
and Wine by Business Insider in twenty nineteen, and just
this past year, your career as a restaurant tour landed
you on Time Magazine's one hundred most Influential People. So
I cannot believe that you did not learn to cook
until adulthood. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I just love to eat. Every family needs someone like me.
I love to eat. And I never imagined that I
would leave India, that I would live in Cambridge and
have to cook for myself. I actually thought I would
end up being a princess and you know, marry some
prince and he would take care of me and cook
for me. I'm being flippant, but I actually just didn't
(05:28):
think that I would reach a situation where I would
be on my own and I would have to cook.
And my kismuth was different. And I left Calcutta to
join my academic husband. Then I ended up in Cambridge
not knowing how to cook. It was such a huge move.
It was now prouting. The only person I knew was
my husband, and that too. I just found met him
(05:49):
effectively before I got married. I had an arranged marriage,
which is different from a forced marriage. Okay, arrange marriage
is like go on speed dating, but your entire family
is involved this thing. You know. There's how in Indian
arranged marriages work. And I think a lot of people
today don't understand what it was thirty five years ago.
You couldn't call home. It was very expensive to make
(06:13):
even a short call. Traveling was expensive. You didn't see
the face of your parents, of your siblings. You didn't
hear voices. I wrote letters to my father and he
wrote to me. Felt like I had been banished. I
felt it was almost like a berievement. See today, if
you miss your family, you can even skype your dog
(06:36):
in Delhi today. But I couldn't talk to anyone. It
was a real tough, isolating, difficult time.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I want to talk about your upbringing a little bit
more Asthma, because I feel like it's so important to
connect the darts between where you came from and the
environment that you're creating for other women and food today.
I mean, your cried when you were born. How would
you describe what it's like growing up as a privileged
woman in a patriarchal agrarian society.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, the interesting thing is, I think that my mother
was overwhelmed. She felt she'd let down her mother. She
was one of five daughters. I know she cried when
I was born, but after that my mother really loved me,
but the extended family was not so nice. It also
did not help that I was, apart from being the
(07:32):
second daughter, I was dark skinned. I was a fat
little girl. People would constantly tell me I was ugly
and fat and dark, that nobody would marry me from
the clan, which turned out to be true. But it
was tough because I wasn't even attractive as far as
the family was concerned. There was no bonus in having
(07:54):
someone like me around. It really hit home when I
was writing my last book and I went through the
entire family archives looking for a picture of me and
my mother. Because the book was in my mother's name,
I had to use a photograph of my mother pregnant
with me. Because no one ever felt that photograph needed
(08:17):
to be taken of me and my mother. It didn't exist.
And it is just these little things when it's so
wrong that a lot of families extended families, grandparents, uncles,
and aunts don't. They just are not kind and they
(08:39):
don't understand that they leave scars so deep. For me,
those cars is where the fire came from. I wanted
to set the whole world alight with those cars that
I carry today. They never went so it was complicated.
My parents loved me a lot. My siblings are really
(09:00):
close to me. My sister who everybody adored because she
was so beautiful. She was this beautiful princess with long hair.
But the game changer was every time people were being
cruel to me, she would hold my hand and tell me,
you are the warrior princess. You the world would shake
(09:20):
when they hear your name. The fact that everybody's favorite
thought I was beautiful, that I was powerful, that I
would become something changed my life. And I was so young.
I realized then solidarity of a woman behind another woman,
a girl telling another girl, go and do it. You're beautiful,
(09:41):
You're going to be powerful, You're going to be strong.
It just made me realize. It changed everything for me,
and I'm so grateful for my sister.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Stay with us, everyone, We're taking a quick break and
then we'll be right back with the Asthma Khan, and
we're back talking food and community with Ozma Khan. The
pain and hurt from your childhood set you want a
(10:13):
path to becoming a change maker in the culinary world.
I mean, like you said, those scars put a fire
in your bones. Your restaurant our Jealing Express, has gotten
high praise from food critics and earned you a spot
on chef's table. And your kitchen is run by an
all women team of housewives who have been with you
since the supper club you created in your own home.
(10:33):
But I actually heard you say that this was not deliberate,
which was surprising to me. How did this team of
women come together?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I mean, it's very easy for me to now create
this narrative that oh I wanted it. I just wanted
women who could cook like me. Intuitively, instinctively, we are
a deeply patriarchal society. The men who are now cooking
on stage in Indian restaurant scene, everyone sees is identical.
(11:01):
They learned as a professional cook in culinary school and
they were trained in five star hotels in India. They
never learned with their mothers and grandmothers. Why would the
boys be in the kitchen the boys would sit on
the table and be served with the men. Women ate
last girls. Eight least we served the boys. They never
(11:22):
were there in the kitchen. You didn't have boys hanging
around and helping. I cooked with my heart and I
weigh with my eyes and my hands. This is why
I had to have women helping me, who did this instinctively.
And when you look into the open kitchen, there are
nine women cooking. The average age of the women cooking
(11:45):
is fifty. And when I wanted to open a restaurant
with my team who had been working with me in
supper clubs, it was all the women and all the
men told me, oh, no, you need professionals. Why is
it that life experience doesn't mean that I'm professional?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I also am not a chef. I never called myself
a chef. If I want to call myself something fancy,
I can call myself a doctor. I have a PhD
in British constitutional law. Chef is a vocational qualification. None
of us have that. But we know how to cook.
And yet everyone told me your restaurant's going to fail.
(12:23):
You cannot open a restaurant just with women who've never
worked professionally. Wow. Look at me. Now, I'd done pretty good.
So it's just at that time everybody was so negative.
And I understand why, because there wasn't anyone like me around.
They felt I was not going to be successful. I
(12:43):
was absolutely sure I would be successful. I believed to
the women, and the women believed in me. Such a
powerful collective of women, we couldn't fail.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I also can't help but think about how that mirrors
your experience with your sister right, Like you really experienced
sisterhood and believed in it, and so you brought it
to the forefront. My question for you is, these women
in their fifties and sixties who are the backbone of
your restaurant, what lessons do you think that other chefs
(13:16):
and other kitchens could learn from them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Patience that's the most important thing. You should be cooking
to heal, not to impress, and give every ingredient, every
spice the time it needs to shine. We have a
very small menu, All the spices are lid. I really
believe in flavor. In fact, that's what my new book
(13:39):
I've just written is on, is just bringing in every
ingredient so that every ingredient shines. That is our food,
Our food is not a meat and too vedge or
a whole bowl of something. Every bite tastes the same.
There's a huge variation in our food.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
One of the things that I've heard you talk about
in in terms of your home and learnings is from
your dad on chef's table. You talk about how he
imprinted this concept of social responsibility for you because you
had more than most people did, and he said it
was your job to make sure to give back and
uplift other people. And so when I think about your kitchen,
(14:20):
I'm wondering what choices you've made that ensure your staff
meet both their family and their professional obligations.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
The double shift, which is the backbone of all restaurants,
is almost created to exclude women and also exclude empathetic
men in this country. In England, when you go into work,
it's dock. You leave at six thirty seven. Often you
know over the minter bances dock. You are in an
(14:48):
airless space with artificial lighting. Because most restaurant kitchens are
in the basement and you are there till midnight. You
go back. You don't have social life. We allow women
to have two ships. They pick. They can come in
the morning and they leave at two thirty because they've
(15:08):
got to pick up the children at three thirty. You
come in for the first shift, or you come in
for the second shift. It come starts at five. There's
nothing happening I can guarantee to you. In a kitchen
between lunch and dinner service, often the menu is separate.
It's not brain surgery where the surgeon cannot leave for
a second. Yeah, it is boiling potatoes. You are prepping,
(15:30):
we're cutting onions. You know, we're getting things ready for
dinner service. This is a culture created by men for men,
and this is why it excludes people who have families.
What we lose are unbelievable women.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, we lose real talent.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, it's a brain drain. We lose our future leaders.
And if some of us don't speak up now. And
this is why I am so grateful like an opportunity
to speak to you, because hopefully in my accented voice,
people listen to my story and understand that we need
to change things. Not just for ourselves. I want to
(16:11):
change things for that generation of girls who are not
yet born.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Have you seen other kitchens adopt your model because it's
been so successful in London.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Not yet, but I live in Hope. I hope that
people are brave. There are more women who are opening restaurants,
but they don't have this model. And I hope that
people are brave because of course everybody wants to be successful.
We are extremely successful. I'm saying this because not out
of arrogance. I want people to know you can have
(16:43):
a business where the bottom line is not money, but
the bottom line is uplifting women. The bottom line is
about community, about justice, about food justice, and about the
politics of food. You can have all of these as
important basis on which you set up your business. It
doesn't mean that you will fail. You will still succeed.
(17:05):
There's overwhelming pressure to conform. But I am determined to
try and have this conversation because I am sowing a harvest.
I will not reap. I will probably not be alive
to see that time when women walk into kitchens and
they own it that they're not afraid of going into
the walk in fridge, they're not afraid of being touched
(17:27):
against their consent. I will not live. But every day
I am trying my best to clear the pathways for
those young women, even those who are not born yet
I want them to know you are free and you
should do this and do not allow others to shut
(17:48):
that flame off inside you. I really want women to
be passionate, and it is all our duty to speak
up to encourage others.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's very important, so clear that that flame that was
placed inside of you asthma has evolved into a real
soft spot for other second daughters. You have the Second
Daughter's Fund to support forgotten little girls in India, and
you are just imbuing the women in your kitchens with
(18:19):
such dignity and pride. You plucked them out of their
domestic roles where they were nannies, they were care workers,
they were housewives, and you said, no, I believe in you.
You can do this. And I want to know how
are these women and their communities changed because of you,
because of all this work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
When I was on a call, my first call about
being on Chef's table, the first thing I said is
I need to show my team, and there was silence.
I thought I'd got dropped out of the call. They said, no, oh,
the chef in chef's table. Let us to show that team.
This is the big difference. I have to show that team,
(18:59):
because I cannot live, I cannot breathe, I cannot be
free if I know that I've taken their labor, their love,
their patients, their skills and claimed it to be my success.
Too many founders, too many leaders, do this. I stand
on the shoulders of giants, my incredible team. How could
(19:21):
I not show them? And in chef's table. For those
who've seen it, you will remember that scene where the
women are against the blue wall. Their name is there,
but the name of the village. I needed that to go.
It made a huge impact. When they went back, the
whole village turned up in the station to receive them
with drums. These were the girls whose birds were lamented,
(19:44):
where the mothers were made to feel humilated because a
girl was born in that house. These girls went back
as heroes. And this is just it stills. I get
emotional because watching this happen in my lifetime, that we
are getting the honor for what we are. Because everybody
(20:07):
wants our rotie. If it's free, they will pay a
man to cook, but we must do it for free.
I want to cook for free. I also want to
be paid. I also want this to be a profession.
I want that to be dignity, and no one should
shut the door on your face saying you're a woman,
you're older. This is not the law of the jungle. Yes,
(20:30):
I may not be able to chase a deer and
catch it, but I can cook, so I should be
given an opportunity.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
We're taking a quick break, but stay with us because
we'll be right back with chef, restaurant tour and cookbook
author Ozma Khan. And we're back with Ozma Khan.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Asthma.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
You mentioned the politics of food earlier, and people see
food as this way of bringing people together. Often hear
that phrase let's break bread. But you say that food
and culture has been separated, that people don't actually want
to see the people behind the food.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Sometimes. Yes, so we are in a situation where food
and culture is separated. You have a table full of food,
my food, food off my heritage. The table is groaning
with food, but there isn't a seat on that table
for me. I will not allow you to eat my food,
to listen to my music, to wear my fabric if
(21:28):
you do not accept me. You build walls to keep
the Mexicans out, but you want to have tacos. Recently,
we've had issues with, you know, riots on the streets
in London. Everybody says, oh, we all love Indian food, chicken, tikamasala,
but then they don't accept us. And this is the
(21:49):
thing that the easiest thing to take of an immigrant
community is their food. But the food is my dna,
it is my breath, it is my heartbeat. You take
away my food and you dismiss my people. This is unacceptable.
And there's so much bullying that happens in schools where
(22:09):
children of different ethnicity in their pack lunch, they may
take rice, they may take food that for other children
may smell unusual. And then there's oh, you smell your
food smells. When a very young child is told their
food smells, it is as if they are smelling. It's
the other ing of people when they're very young using food,
(22:31):
and then later on the taking away of our food.
And I want everybody to cook my food. You can
be from Mars. Please cook my food. But I want
you to understand the stories of my women. I want
you to understand the ingredients that went in. I want
you to understand the beat with which we crush the spices.
(22:53):
Please listen to our stories, talk to us. Don't dismiss
us and take away our food. It's very important. And
the problem is that for too long this has been happening.
For too long, it's been happening. We need to stop
that because with that lack of respect for our culture,
the food just goes and we lose a very important
(23:15):
part of our identity.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
There's room at the table for my food, but not
for me. Is in analogy I think for so many
marginalized groups. Yes, you know you started your business later
in life, and you started it after starting your family,
after going through years of school. You mentioned you're a doctorate.
In what ways do you think that starting your career
(23:37):
as a restaurant tour was actually beneficial to you?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I think it is the most powerful decade of my
life when I was in my forties. That's not how
society sees it. Everybody worships the youth and the creative
and the young in many cultures, and this is in
the West and the East. The moment you are in
your life late forties, you are not seen as dynamic,
(24:02):
not creative. When I went to the bank, I just
want to open a t shop downstairs near my house.
They laughed at me. And they said, oh, what a
lovely hobby. Call us to your house, missus Kahan. I
cried all the way home. I was tongue tied. I
could not say a name of a single woman who
started in her forties, who did something she had not
(24:23):
done before, who was passionate, who was creative, who is dynamic,
but didn't have a piece of paper a certificate, and
she was in her forties. I began at forty five.
In every sport where there's baseball, a cricket, we have
a second innings. I am in my second innings. I
will hit every ball out of the park. My team
(24:47):
will win. I will not get a chance to bat again.
You can't defeat me. You cannot defeat powerful women in
their forties, the collective of women who have all on
so many times, we have scarred, we are bruised. All
of you only know me when I became successful. You
were not there when I was ridiculed and laughed at,
(25:10):
when the doors were slammed on my face from the ashes.
I have risen to be this person. Who is that
bird we have my father's to always say, Ausma, be
that bird who sings before dawn in the darkness tell
everybody light is going to come. Be so powerful and
(25:33):
so confident that you always know dawn will follow night.
The night is never endless. And I think all of
us should be that we should tell the stories of
hope and tell women that when everybody pushes you, boxes
you in one corner and tells you that you are
past it, tell them your light is coming, your night
(25:55):
is over. And I feel such a sense of joy.
I know every day I live one day less. I
want to be that person who, through my hope, gives
others hope.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I need you in my ear every morning. I just
need you to give me a daily pep talk so
that I can get out of bed and feel confident,
because when I as I'm listening to you speak, it's
like this incredibly moving motivational material that just is so energizing.
You have been the light for those women who are
(26:30):
in your kitchen. And I want to talk about some
specific ways that you've recommended that other chefs in the
industry and restaurateurs go about making change. And you say
that this is something that we can all do. Take
a chance on someone even if they aren't fully qualified.
Why why is that so important?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You can teach people's skills. You cannot teach attitude. You
cannot teach them resilience. That doesn't happen. So if they
are not fully qualified and they don't have all the skills,
you can teach them, you can guide them, you can
hup them. I don't know how to cook. I'm pretty
decent cook now. It took a bit a while, but
(27:10):
I goot that, so I understand. I love skills. But
the passion and the love for food, the desire to
understand my culinary heritage, my respect for women who cooked.
This cannot be taught. You need to feel it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
When I think about the kinds of conversations that we
want to have on our show, The bright Side, you
are like straight up the middle because you are knocking
your second act out of the park. And that's something
that we talk about a lot, is transformation, reinvention. And
I think one of the reasons why we feel it's
important to talk about that is because our society, our
world is obsessed with the expiration dates for women. Society
(27:49):
loves to tell us what we can and can't do
after a certain age. So what would you say to
anyone listening who feels it might be too late for them.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Do not allow anyone to label you, to put a
badge on you, to put you into a box. I
tell everybody there's no box big enough. I will be
who I want to be. I am the captain of
my ship. You don't get on my ship and tell
me where to go. You don't do that. I think
this is so important. We are allowed, we are pushed
(28:17):
to one side. We allow people to dictate to us.
Even well beinging friends, female friends will always kind of
You're the smart one, You're the nerdy one, you're the
techy one. You are none of these. You are every
day you can be a new person. You write your
own story. The world should not write your story. You
(28:40):
write your story. You dictate what you want to do
with your life. You are not born to crawl through life.
You were born to fly free. If everybody else tells
you where to go, this is not your destiny. We
all have a beautiful story, and I think that you
(29:02):
embrace that. And there's a little voice inside us. Let's
shut down everybody, shut down all that noise and listen
to that voice that is telling you who you really are.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Ozma, thank you so much. This has been truly one
of my favorite conversations we've had so far.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you, Thank you so much, Ozma. Ozma Kahn is
the chef and owner of the Darjeeling Express in London
and an author of multiple esteemed cookbooks.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're popping off with
the hosts of the Go Touch Grass podcast, Millie Tamaraz
and Elise Morales. Listen and follow the bright Side on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I'm Simone Voice. You can find me at simone Voice
on Instagram and.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Tiktok'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
That's r O b A. Y.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hosts And Creators
Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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