February 19, 2025 • 34 mins
We’ve all heard about microplastics by now. They’re everywhere. But how worried should we be about them? Should we try to avoid microplastics? And what are some tips for reducing our exposure to them? Leading microplastics expert Dr. Heather Leslie joins Danielle and Simone to answer all these questions and more. Plus, she busts some common microplastics myths.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey fam, Hello sunshine. Today on the bright side, it's
Wellness Wednesday. And if you've seen the headlines on microplastics
and wondered should I be freaking out?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Are they the silent polluters in our homes?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Well, we're cutting through the panic with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
She's here to tell us what.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Actually matters, where microplastics are hiding, how they're affecting our health,
and what we can do about it all. It's Wednesday,
February nineteenth.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Boye and this is
the bright side from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Danielle.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I don't know about you, but I feel like I
am constantly bombarded with headlines about the dangers of microplastics,
and it's hard not to panic.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, first of all, yes, and second of all, that's
sort of the problem is that they're everywhere, Like they're
in our water, our food, our clothes, even our air.
And so for most of us who are thinking about
our health, or our caid's health, or our parents' health
on a daily basis, those headlines are really scary.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Do you remember that movie Dark Waters from twenty nineteen, Yes, yes,
absolutely so. Darkwaters is a film that's based on a
true story about a lawsuit against the chemical company DuPont
for polluting a town with unregulated chemicals, and it chronicles
the mysterious deaths that followed Mark Ruffalo's in the film
(01:25):
and Hathaways in the film. And for me, it was
really eye opening about the dangerous consequences of these chemicals.
And after I watched that movie, I made a lot
of changes. I like throughout all of my teflon cookware
that I got when I got married, and we switched
to all non toxic stuff, And so I was feeling
really energized about taking control over this issue. But then,
(01:48):
like you were saying, when I started to realize how
prevalent these microplastics are, I just feel defeated.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I feel like, how can I possibly even make a
dent in removing these these toxins for my life.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I do a lot of work with the Environmental
Working Group, which is known as the EWG, and they
talk about this a lot. And the reason I started
working with them is because I felt so overwhelmed. I
was so freaked out because these microplastics, they say they're
messing with our hormones, our immune systems, some studies even
say our fertility and so that panic is definitely real,
(02:24):
but organizations like the EWG break it down, and so
I think our guest today is also somebody who is
going to break down this information in a way that
feels like we're a little bit more in control and
we can try and avoid some of these things and
lessen our panic. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and truly a leading
expert in the realm of microplastics. She was actually part
of the team that first detected microplastics and human blood.
If you can imagine how monumental that knowledge would have
been at that time. I obviously have tons of questions.
I want to get to the truth, I want to
get past the panic, and I want to understand how
(03:04):
these plastics are really affecting us. So let's bring her
in joining us all the way from Amsterdam.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Doctor Leslie, welcome to the right side.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So we're going to get into all of the science
and all the important stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
But I have to ask you right off the bat,
am I actually eating a credit cards worth of plastic
every week?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's kind of fake news.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I think we are eating something, but it's not exactly
the same thing as a credit card a plastic.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I feel so relieved hearing that.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
What exactly falls under the microplastics umbrella?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What are we eating?
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well, microplastics are a really complicated kind of toxicant because
they're made up of so many different chemicals. You have
the polymers, which I sometimes refer to as as spaghetti,
but then you have additives, which I call the sauce.
So it's a sort of a cocktail of chemicals that
are in a microplastic. So one piece of plastic you
can have four hundred different chemicals in there.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
What are the primary sources of microplastics? Are they solely
the result of larger plastics breaking down or are there
other ways that they enter the environment.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Well, most of them are just shreds that are just
eroding off of our plastic stuff. But you do have
some microplastics that are we call them primary microplastics, and
they're manufactured to be microplastics. You see that sometimes in
cosmetics or personal care product they make microbeads put in there,
and that's an example of intentionally made plastic that are
(04:31):
micro sized.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And is there a breakdown primarily a result of time, heat,
physical wear, and tear.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
What are the key processes at play?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Those are good key processes.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
So when you have a UV light like sunshine on plastic,
it breaks it down a little bit faster. But nothing's
linear with breakdown of plastics. Sometimes you know something will
crack and it will break. But then to really break down,
to completely mineralize, to go back to the earth, let's
say it takes hundreds of years, if not longer.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Doctor Leslie Danielle threw out that headline at you at
the top of this conversation, and you responded saying it's
fake news. And for me, that's what I really want
to get out of this conversation, not just for me
and my family, but also for our listeners. I really
want to cut through the panic here and try to
understand what is a healthy amount of awareness about this
(05:26):
issue and what is an unhealthy amount of fear around microplastics.
What is a healthy perspective on this, What is a
healthy way to view how these toxins are impacting us?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Yeah, well, I think no amount of fear is healthy.
So fear is just bad for us, bad for your health. Basically,
so turn down the fear. It is a serious issue though,
and I spent a lot of years my life working
on this, and I hope I didn't waste that time.
I do think that our world, in our bodies with
(06:01):
the world, are getting polluted with a lot of different chemicals,
and this is you know, some people don't mind having
a lot of chemicals in their bodies. Some of us
still put chemicals in our body on purpose that aren't
good for us. And I think everybody should be free
to just choose, but when it comes to pollution, you
don't really have too much freedom to choose, or there's
limitations to that, and that's where it gets to be
(06:23):
a bit problematic, where you you know, you really want
to be able to choose what goes into your body.
And microplastics are made up of many different components, so
polymers and a lot of chemicals, and some of them
are harmless, but some of them can cause toxic effects
like hormone disruption or neurotoxicity. And one of the ones
(06:45):
that the microplastics are getting known for is their ability
to cause inflammation. So it's an immune system response and
what we don't want in our bodies is inflammation, especially
on the long term, because a long term inflammation is
like a prelude to a lot of chronic diseases. So
I think it's just prudent to when you signal something
(07:08):
on the horizon that there's some indications that there's a
problem with toxicity, that we just try to limit our
exposure to these components, and we really have to keep
on doing the research to deliver the answers. Just that
science is a bit slow to deliver all the answers
at once.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well that's not always a bad thing. I'd rather slow
and accurate versus fast and untrue.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
So I want to underscore something that you just said.
You said that the priority is to limit exposure, because
at this point it feels like completely cutting off exposure
to microplastics just seems unrealistic. So what does it look
like to limit our exposure to these microplastics.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Yeah, so I think it's what you said. It's impossible
to fully limit your exposure to microplastics on the planet Earth.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So what I do.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Also is to take small steps to where it's living
more aligned with what I really want my body to
be in contact with. So you can think about it
in your home. Next time you buy a blanket, you
don't have to buy a polyester blanket or nylon clothing,
or any kind of interior carpets or curtains, anything that
(08:19):
you're bringing into your home furniture. If it's not plastic,
it's not going to shed plastic. And if it's not plastic,
it won't be carrying plastic additives in it. And sometimes
the solution to a problem can also bring other problems
with it, so you have to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
But yeah, how close are we to understanding the long
term health effects of microplastics?
Speaker 5 (08:43):
I think the long term health effects are a long
way away in our understanding. What we will first find
out is what happens at a cellular level, because toxicity
testing in a laboratory will look at, you know, really
zoom in on something very molecular level. But then how
that all pans out for the individual body or a
(09:05):
whole population of people. That takes a lot of time
and a lot of resources, and it's just a question
of whether we're going to be investing that. One thing
I can say is that if diseases pop up that
are from environmental factors, they often pop up in occupationally
exposed people. So people may be working in a workplace
(09:26):
where there's a lot of plastic dust that they're inhaling,
or in another way, they're swallowing a lot of chemicals,
or they're breeding it in. And these populations are sometimes
the populations where we first see diseases arising. So that
could accelerate some of our understanding, but I hope it
(09:47):
doesn't get to that point that people are getting really acutely,
very sick from this stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So would you explain what exactly is happening in our
bodies when microplastics invade our organs and our bloodstream.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
So a few years ago, we published a paper that
showed plastics to be floating around in our bloodstream, and
of course your blood goes everywhere in your body, so
it will be present in all of your tissues and
organs as well. And we were a bit surprised how
much we did find. I mean, it's a preliminary study
that has since been redone and with similar results, so
(10:22):
it seems like we do have exposure in there. And
if a microplastic is in a bloodstream, and I've looked
at microplastics in blood samples under a microscope, and you
can see that your immune cells are really active, so
they immediately sense there's an invader and they will go
and attack this piece of plastic. And these immune cells
(10:45):
have enzymes inside which they try to break down the
plastic because they're treating the plastic particle like a bacteria.
But the problem is that plastics, unlike bacteria, don't succumb
to an enzyme attack. So after a few days, the
cell gives up and the enzymes get released into whatever
(11:05):
tissue is nearby that can also cause an inflammation, and
then the plastic still remains there. And I don't know
how long it will take for a body to eliminate
the plastic that it receives today. Nobody, I think, knows
that yet, but we do know that the rate of
absorption of these plastics is certainly faster than the rate
(11:28):
that we are able to eliminate them. Otherwise we wouldn't
be finding them in our bodies, in all these organs
that you see in the news and also in our
study in the bloodstream.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
When did this first pop up, and maybe even particularly
in American culture, did something change in industry or was this.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Always the case?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
We were always ingesting a ton of microplastics, and only
in the last ten twenty years are we studying it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Well, the very first signals of microplastics was in the
Sergasso Sea and that was the end of the sixties.
But there were also patents for using pulverized plastic in
makeup like blush and things like that, those who go
back to the fifties. Even so, it's been on some
people's radars, but certainly hasn't been on mainstream radar until
(12:18):
fairly recently. And one of the people who was really
instrumental in bringing it to the public was Captain Charles Moore,
also from California, who went out sailing on the Pacific
Ocean and stumbled across old toothbrushes and bottles and toys
that were floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean,
(12:38):
and he thought, that's crazy, what are these things doing here?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And he's been.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
Also studying microplastics in the sea as well, so he
really put it on the map.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I would say, we have to take a quick break,
but we'll be right back with doctor Heather Leslie. And
we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Well, doctor Leslie, we also have to give you your
flowers because you are a leading expert in this space,
and you're known for your pioneering research in identifying and
quantifying microplastics in human bloodstream for the very first time,
which is huge. And you also led the EU's first
research project on marine plastic pollution, which you were just
speaking about the prevalence of microplastics in marine pollution. How
(13:30):
much has changed from your vantage point? How has the
prevalence of microplastics in society evolved since you started doing
this work.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah, I really noticed a lot of more attention than
compared to the past. I mean sometimes I'm sitting on
the train and I hear some people talking about cleaning
products or microplastics in their toothpaste. And it's not just
because of my research, but also because of NGOs that
amplify the message and they take the research that they
put it out there in their platforms, and I think
(14:02):
there's a lot of awareness now.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
School kids seem to know just as much as I know.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
If I speak to them, they're full of knowledge and
also solutions and they're very very concerned, so they're very
easy also to make their changes. You know, they love nature,
they love animals, and they're willing to do something for it.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Well, I have two kids, and I think about just
how hard it is to limit their exposure to microplastics.
I mean, plastic seems to be the prevailing material that
companies use to create products for children. It's in the toys,
it's in the sippy cups, it's in the plastic plates.
And I know that I should be reaching for stainless steel,
(14:44):
But I'd love to hear any alternatives that you might
have for parents out there who are looking to limit
exposure in their own home.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Children are also, that's an early life stage, and they
are more sensitive than adults to a lot of these
hormone disrupting chemicals and possibly also the microplastics itself. So
we've seen some studies coming out about baby bottles that
you know, especially when you heat up plastic or have
warm liquids or warm food in plastic containers, that's really
(15:16):
when processes go a little faster and you get even
more exposure. So, as I said, if there's no plastic
in the product, it won't come out into your food
or it won't be exposed to your child to plastic.
It's very difficult, but I think it's okay to start
with one thing and slowly work your way up to
(15:37):
seeing how far you can get, see how jazzed up
you can get. To reduce your plastic exposure. A lot
of kids will put things in their mouths. You have
the stuffed animals, and I think, you know, we can't
just reduce the amount of joy that kids get from
having their toys, but we can start to, especially for
really young age groups that put a lot of things
(15:59):
into their mouths, try to reduce the amount of things
that are made of plastic and look for more natural
materials than natural dyes and things like that. But I
feel sorry for parents because it seems like a big
mountain of work to do, just like for adults, but
for children it's a special case.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yes, it's very intimidating.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, and I'm here really to say not to be intimidated.
I think just to do the best you can to
set the intention. Whenever you make a choice, maybe it'll
enter your head and you'll be able to choose a
different option. And that's the way to go. Because we
can't change everything overnight. But there are so many things
that we can do, and I think a lot of
(16:39):
people look towards the government and waiting for them to
change things for us. And it's also an American style
of thinking to just think for yourself to get it
done without help, you know, And I really admire that.
I think that's the way to go because in my experience,
I've talked a lot with governments, but I think they're
going to be the last ones. After all the companies
(17:02):
have changed and all the people like us have changed
into a new way of living, then they're going to
catch up and they'll regulate it all for us. But
you know, I really think that we have to be
ahead of the game to draw us into the future
of living a less plasticized life.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's a really important perspective shift. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I am really into trying to reduce toxins in my life.
Cleaning products, makeup, even my mattress, bath towels. A few
years ago really tried to do an overhaul. And I
remember asking my physician when I was like at the
beginning stages of this, if I made one swap today,
(17:45):
what is the first thing that I should do? And
this was just his personal perspective, but he said, deodorant
because it's going right into your lymph nodes. If you
could swap one thing, that would be my recommendation. So
I say that all to say, I know this is
a tough question, but if you could make the number
one recommendation today, what is one way that we can
(18:06):
reduce our exposure to microplastics?
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I would have to go with food. So processed food,
like getting away from whole foods will get you into
more microplastics and also other chemicals.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I think it's for all around health.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
It's a really very very strong way to make a
difference in your exposure. Of course, food is something is
going right into our bodies, just like a deodorant through
the skin.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
But I mean.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Ingesting something is very direct way of getting it inside.
I mean, just about two generations, I think the world
has kind of switched to things that come in a package,
and the packaging releases a lot of chemicals and also microplastics.
If you rip something open, of course, plastic is going
to get inside. Chewing gum is also made of plastic.
(18:55):
You don't swallow it normally, but you could also avoid that.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So yeah, I would say.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Food is is a really big source of a lot
of toxicity.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
At the same time as being something that keeps us alive.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
But I think if you can improve your food quality,
I think it's the single most thing I would recommend.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
That is huge. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
It's time for another short break. We'll be right back
with doctor Heather Leslie. And we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Doctor Leslie, can we go through a few potential swaps
for plastic with you?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
All right, let's talk about tea bags, paper coffee cups,
you know the ones that you get at coffee shops.
Are there any swaps for these?
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Sure yeah. Paper cups with the polyethylene lining, and the
polyethylene will start to melt even before one hundred degrees
celsius like boiling water temperature. So I would say if
you don't need to buy a coffee in one of
those cups, or if you can get it in a
real cup or bring your on cup, it's much better.
Tea bags also give off a lot of microplastics, and
(20:07):
loose tea is lovely to use. You have a little
tea egg or in my teapot, a teapot with a
built in little filter.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Last year we spoke with a doctor who told us
to never ever microwave or reheat anything that's in plastic.
What exactly happens when we microwave plastic? How bad is it?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Well, yeah, that's another heating process.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
So the plastic gets warmed up, and that will encourage
the chemicals that are in the plastic to leave and
go in volatilized. They just evaporate and they go into
your food. And then also the material is a little
bit structurally damaged by every heating episode, so a little
bit of microplastic will will be released. Then using plastic
(20:50):
in a microwave is not a good idea. You can
just put it in a glass container or ceramic container
and heat it up.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I think that one of the biggest scams of the
twin first century was bottled water. Everybody thought that nodding
your head, yes, we were doing a good thing by
or a healthy thing by drinking water. And there's a
ton of reasons that bottled water is bad, but microplastics
has to be at the top of that list.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Are you able to explain why it's.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Very difficult to measure microplastics in water?
Speaker 5 (21:22):
I can say, but there are studies that have found
just millions of them, you know, or at least hundreds
of thousands in one liter.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
That's a lot.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
And I don't think you need a toxicologist to tell
you that you don't want to be drinking water which
has a quarter of a million microplastics in it. And
the other thing about bottled water is it's usually tap
waters from somewhere else, and it costs like two thousand
times more than tap water, and we buy it because
it's convenient, and sometimes we think it tastes good or
(21:53):
it's better quality than our tap water. But I think
you know, if you really want to have good drinking
water which you can bring with you in your own
bottle that doesn't have to be plastic, you can also
look into filtering water at home. We're not very much money.
The price that you pay for bottled water for a
whole year will certainly pay for for a filtration unit.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Of course, as I'm hearing you speak, I have all
these images rushing to my mind of all the microplastics
I've engaged with over the course of my thirty seven
years on this earth. And there's one scene in particular
that I'm thinking about where I visited a recycling plant
when I was a journalist and was watching the process
of breaking down all these plastic bottles into small, tiny
(22:40):
pieces to then have them remade into new products. But
when I'm hearing you speak, I'm questioning the impact of
microplastics on recycling and sustainability efforts around the world. We
kind of were under this impression that recycling and breaking
(23:00):
down plastic and creating new products was a good thing.
But what I'm hearing you say is that that's probably
not a good thing.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Recycling is a tricky one because it can work for
certain types of plastics, like food contact material plastics which
don't have a lot of additives in them. But it's
very very tricky to bring back used plastic, know what's
in it, and make something else out of it.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
It's also takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
There's a lot of worry with manufacturing that there might
be some residual additives in it, so that's why a
lot of people don't want to use that. And the
other problem is that the material itself is not as functional,
so to make something completely out of recycled plastic is
really difficult, so you always have to add what we
call virgin plastics with it in order to get functionality.
(23:50):
So actually I think the things that nature recycles. I
think nature is really good at recycling its own stuff.
And when we are making our new.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Fangled plastics, we have to also think about how it
could be recycled too, And if we're not good at
recycling it, maybe we should use a lot less of it.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
And of course there's some really good applications of plastic.
We're using plastic just to do this interview, but I
think there's a lot of plastic applications that are kind
of low hanging fruit, you know, the things that are
single use, and that there is a really good alternative
for a lot of things are just overpackaged.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
If we're eating a lot of processed food, then there's
extra packaging, you know. But if you buy the fruits
and vegetables, they're packaged by nature, you know, and those
those packages are going to be recycled also by nature
very easily.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Well, doctor Leslie, we have not stopped peppering you with questions,
so clearly there's a lot of interest in this topic.
And also there are so many opinions out there are
going to be hard to know who to trust on this.
So with that in mind, will you help us bust
some microplastic myths I'll try.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
First up, we've been hearing that BPA free products are
safer than traditional plastics.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Is that true?
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Well, my big question when they say it's BPA free,
I say, well, I want to know, not what's not
in it.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
I want to know what is in it.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
And sometimes BPA has been taken out, but they put
in something that's very very similar to BPA that also
has similar toxicity.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So BPA is something.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
You don't want to have in your plastic, in your
water bottles or in your baby bottles. It's another endocrine
disrupting chemical, but you don't want them to replace it
like a chemical substitution that's just as bad as what
you used to have, like jumping from the frying pan
into the fire.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Are all plastics created equal?
Speaker 5 (25:45):
No, There's some that are more environmentally damaging or more
dangerous to your health than others.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
And you know, you have food.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Contact plastic, which they really try to make non toxic,
but then you have some types of plastic that not
paying attention to toxicity at all, and they really go
for it. And so there's definitely differences. There's at least
ten thousand different types of plastic on the market, different recipes.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
While we're on the topic of food, there's also been
concerns of microplastics in seafood, and especially shellfish, because we
usually eat the entire animal, microplastics included. Unfortunately, one study
found that people who eat large amounts of seafood and
jest up to eleven thousand microplastic particles a year.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Should we avoid seafood.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
Well, yeah, and seafood especially filter feeders like muscles and oysters.
They can really filter out a lot of microplastics. And indeed,
you're eating the whole animal, and if it hasn't had
a chance to get rid of its guts, you're going
to have some microplastics in it. So it's I think,
you know, you can enjoy seafood. Sometimes there's also other
issues about with different things in the sea with seafood,
(26:57):
like mercury. Sometimes depends where the seafood comes from, and
if it's from a relatively clean area, then it's fine.
I think the study you mean was a Belgian study
which was in a not very clean area of the
North Sea. So you know, everything in moderation. I would say,
what about.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
The clothes in our closets.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
There's a good chance the majority of my closet right
now is made up of plastic fabrics that contain plastic
like polyester and nylon. Should we be avoiding synthetic fabrics altogether.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Yeah, Synthetic fabrics are a really good source of plastic exposure.
Your clothing is next to your skin, so that's your
biggest organ So any chemicals that are in those fabrics,
especially when they're new, will be leaching out in into
your skin, and microplastics will be coming off with the
microfibers with wear and tear, so you can breed them
in and they can also enter the wastewater systems and
(27:50):
your surface water with the.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Laundering of them.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
So if you want to reduce your microplastic posure through
your clothes, you can just think about next time you
go shopping if you can find something that has more
natural ingredients in it, so cotton or linen or wool clothing.
I would personally avoid nylon. There's also research being done
here in the Netherlands about nylon, and this was with
(28:15):
lung cells and the lung cells really didn't like to
be near the nylon, so when they were growing in
the laboratory on their own, and there was nylon fibers
put in there, or even water where nylon fibers had
been present, that was enough to stop them from growing.
And it doesn't say you're going to get sick, but
(28:36):
it's just another signal that I think, you know, no
paralysis by analysis. I just want to do something now.
If I don't need this product, I'm not going to
bring it into my home. And the other thing about toxicology,
which I should say which might be comforting, is we
always say the dose makes the poison. So a little
bit of poison is manageable, and it's only during a
(28:59):
cross exposure to to something that's really toxic are you
going to really see health effects. So I think it's
it's also a case of do you feel like changing
or does it not matter too much to you? You know,
And for the things you feel like changing, it's going
to be easy to find an alternative. It's just kind
of raise your awareness first, and then that affects all
(29:22):
the choices that you make.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Here on in Okay, what about makeup?
Speaker 3 (29:26):
How bad is the microplastic content in lipstick, lipbalm, mascara,
even eyeliner.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Women who wear lipstick apparently eat several kilos of it
during a lifetime. So if there's plastic in there, and
I have looked at that and also Lipbam, there's a
lot of plastic components in that. So if you can
find brands that are more from the natural cosmetics lines,
then you will be reducing your amounts of exposure, especially
(29:55):
toothpaste and lipstick and lip ball, but also anything that
to put on your face. We know that microplastics have
a really hard time going through the skin, but the
chemicals that are in microplastics will be able to be
absorbed by the skin in many cases.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I just want to share a resource because it's the
only thing that's helped me. Ewg dot org, slash skin deep.
You can put in all of your ingredients, brands, personal
care products and see all of that stuff and try
and make a swap because it's really hard to look
things up product by product without it. This is my
(30:32):
last question for you. You are probably the only expert that
I have heard that makes this feel less overwhelming, and
I can imagine that people listening are still going to
walk away feeling a little doom and gloom. Here as
someone who's knee deep in the research. How do you
remain optimistic on this.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
Well, one of the advices that I got from someone
was to never be a pessimist, because pessimists never get
anything done. So he recommended being an optimist. And I
also do really do have a vision for how we
can do things better for our planet and for our
kids and for our own health.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And I'm I.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Think it's it's really fun to just stop and think
about the world that I want, thinking about when I
wake up, where do I want to wake up, who's there,
what stuff is there? What am I going to do today?
What am I going to do this evening? What am
I going to do this weekend? All of these things
that you know, we don't often stop to think about
(31:35):
what we really want, what kind of materials do we want?
What kind of buildings are we living in and working in.
You can really have a wonderful time with yourself just
being quiet and thinking about how it would feel to
live in that world. That's the first step, and then
you can think of what can I do today that's
(31:56):
a little bit like that world, you know, And I
see a lot of people all doing that, taking small
steps because it's too overwhelming to get it all done
even this year. You know, it's just it's a question
of small steps with a real intention, using your imagination
to go in the direction that you really feel good
about going in. Make it fun, and you're not going
(32:19):
to enjoy anything any less. You're going to enjoy things
more when you're more aligned with what you really want
in deep in your heart. And that's something that we
don't really talk about very much. It's kind of uncomfortable
because we think, well, what I want is so far
from what I have, or all sorts of things that
can make us anxious. But really go back into the
vision of your future, the way you want your.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Today to be, and see how far you can get.
And it's a wonderful process and I think.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
If anybody out there listening will try it. It's very
empowering because you're not outsourcing your power to somebody else,
some company who has to reformulate, some advertiser who has
to advertise something else to you, or to the government
that has to fix everything, but really just in your
own individual life doing it your way.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Well, you really are changing the world with your intentionality,
optimism and insights.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Thank you so much, doctor Leslie.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Thank you too.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and leading expert in
microplastics based in Amsterdam.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Tomorrow, we're joined by the hilarious author, comedian and TV
host Chelsea Handler. Her new book, I'll Have What She's
Having is out next Tuesday, February twenty fifth.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh. And
feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And then follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hey fam, Hello sunshine. Today on the bright side, it's
Wellness Wednesday. And if you've seen the headlines on microplastics
and wondered should I be freaking out?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Are they the silent polluters in our homes?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Well, we're cutting through the panic with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
She's here to tell us what.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Actually matters, where microplastics are hiding, how they're affecting our health,
and what we can do about it all. It's Wednesday,
February nineteenth.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Boye and this is
the bright side from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Danielle.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I don't know about you, but I feel like I
am constantly bombarded with headlines about the dangers of microplastics,
and it's hard not to panic.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, first of all, yes, and second of all, that's
sort of the problem is that they're everywhere, Like they're
in our water, our food, our clothes, even our air.
And so for most of us who are thinking about
our health, or our caid's health, or our parents' health
on a daily basis, those headlines are really scary.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Do you remember that movie Dark Waters from twenty nineteen, Yes, yes,
absolutely so. Darkwaters is a film that's based on a
true story about a lawsuit against the chemical company DuPont
for polluting a town with unregulated chemicals, and it chronicles
the mysterious deaths that followed Mark Ruffalo's in the film
(01:25):
and Hathaways in the film. And for me, it was
really eye opening about the dangerous consequences of these chemicals.
And after I watched that movie, I made a lot
of changes. I like throughout all of my teflon cookware
that I got when I got married, and we switched
to all non toxic stuff, And so I was feeling
really energized about taking control over this issue. But then,
(01:48):
like you were saying, when I started to realize how
prevalent these microplastics are, I just feel defeated.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I feel like, how can I possibly even make a
dent in removing these these toxins for my life.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I do a lot of work with the Environmental
Working Group, which is known as the EWG, and they
talk about this a lot. And the reason I started
working with them is because I felt so overwhelmed. I
was so freaked out because these microplastics, they say they're
messing with our hormones, our immune systems, some studies even
say our fertility and so that panic is definitely real,
(02:24):
but organizations like the EWG break it down, and so
I think our guest today is also somebody who is
going to break down this information in a way that
feels like we're a little bit more in control and
we can try and avoid some of these things and
lessen our panic. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and truly a leading
expert in the realm of microplastics. She was actually part
of the team that first detected microplastics and human blood.
If you can imagine how monumental that knowledge would have
been at that time. I obviously have tons of questions.
I want to get to the truth, I want to
get past the panic, and I want to understand how
(03:04):
these plastics are really affecting us. So let's bring her
in joining us all the way from Amsterdam.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Doctor Leslie, welcome to the right side.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So we're going to get into all of the science
and all the important stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
But I have to ask you right off the bat,
am I actually eating a credit cards worth of plastic
every week?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's kind of fake news.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I think we are eating something, but it's not exactly
the same thing as a credit card a plastic.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I feel so relieved hearing that.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
What exactly falls under the microplastics umbrella?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What are we eating?
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well, microplastics are a really complicated kind of toxicant because
they're made up of so many different chemicals. You have
the polymers, which I sometimes refer to as as spaghetti,
but then you have additives, which I call the sauce.
So it's a sort of a cocktail of chemicals that
are in a microplastic. So one piece of plastic you
can have four hundred different chemicals in there.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
What are the primary sources of microplastics? Are they solely
the result of larger plastics breaking down or are there
other ways that they enter the environment.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Well, most of them are just shreds that are just
eroding off of our plastic stuff. But you do have
some microplastics that are we call them primary microplastics, and
they're manufactured to be microplastics. You see that sometimes in
cosmetics or personal care product they make microbeads put in there,
and that's an example of intentionally made plastic that are
(04:31):
micro sized.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And is there a breakdown primarily a result of time, heat,
physical wear, and tear.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
What are the key processes at play?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Those are good key processes.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
So when you have a UV light like sunshine on plastic,
it breaks it down a little bit faster. But nothing's
linear with breakdown of plastics. Sometimes you know something will
crack and it will break. But then to really break down,
to completely mineralize, to go back to the earth, let's
say it takes hundreds of years, if not longer.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Doctor Leslie Danielle threw out that headline at you at
the top of this conversation, and you responded saying it's
fake news. And for me, that's what I really want
to get out of this conversation, not just for me
and my family, but also for our listeners. I really
want to cut through the panic here and try to
understand what is a healthy amount of awareness about this
(05:26):
issue and what is an unhealthy amount of fear around microplastics.
What is a healthy perspective on this, What is a
healthy way to view how these toxins are impacting us?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Yeah, well, I think no amount of fear is healthy.
So fear is just bad for us, bad for your health. Basically,
so turn down the fear. It is a serious issue though,
and I spent a lot of years my life working
on this, and I hope I didn't waste that time.
I do think that our world, in our bodies with
(06:01):
the world, are getting polluted with a lot of different chemicals,
and this is you know, some people don't mind having
a lot of chemicals in their bodies. Some of us
still put chemicals in our body on purpose that aren't
good for us. And I think everybody should be free
to just choose, but when it comes to pollution, you
don't really have too much freedom to choose, or there's
limitations to that, and that's where it gets to be
(06:23):
a bit problematic, where you you know, you really want
to be able to choose what goes into your body.
And microplastics are made up of many different components, so
polymers and a lot of chemicals, and some of them
are harmless, but some of them can cause toxic effects
like hormone disruption or neurotoxicity. And one of the ones
(06:45):
that the microplastics are getting known for is their ability
to cause inflammation. So it's an immune system response and
what we don't want in our bodies is inflammation, especially
on the long term, because a long term inflammation is
like a prelude to a lot of chronic diseases. So
I think it's just prudent to when you signal something
(07:08):
on the horizon that there's some indications that there's a
problem with toxicity, that we just try to limit our
exposure to these components, and we really have to keep
on doing the research to deliver the answers. Just that
science is a bit slow to deliver all the answers
at once.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well that's not always a bad thing. I'd rather slow
and accurate versus fast and untrue.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
So I want to underscore something that you just said.
You said that the priority is to limit exposure, because
at this point it feels like completely cutting off exposure
to microplastics just seems unrealistic. So what does it look
like to limit our exposure to these microplastics.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Yeah, so I think it's what you said. It's impossible
to fully limit your exposure to microplastics on the planet Earth.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So what I do.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Also is to take small steps to where it's living
more aligned with what I really want my body to
be in contact with. So you can think about it
in your home. Next time you buy a blanket, you
don't have to buy a polyester blanket or nylon clothing,
or any kind of interior carpets or curtains, anything that
(08:19):
you're bringing into your home furniture. If it's not plastic,
it's not going to shed plastic. And if it's not plastic,
it won't be carrying plastic additives in it. And sometimes
the solution to a problem can also bring other problems
with it, so you have to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
But yeah, how close are we to understanding the long
term health effects of microplastics?
Speaker 5 (08:43):
I think the long term health effects are a long
way away in our understanding. What we will first find
out is what happens at a cellular level, because toxicity
testing in a laboratory will look at, you know, really
zoom in on something very molecular level. But then how
that all pans out for the individual body or a
(09:05):
whole population of people. That takes a lot of time
and a lot of resources, and it's just a question
of whether we're going to be investing that. One thing
I can say is that if diseases pop up that
are from environmental factors, they often pop up in occupationally
exposed people. So people may be working in a workplace
(09:26):
where there's a lot of plastic dust that they're inhaling,
or in another way, they're swallowing a lot of chemicals,
or they're breeding it in. And these populations are sometimes
the populations where we first see diseases arising. So that
could accelerate some of our understanding, but I hope it
(09:47):
doesn't get to that point that people are getting really acutely,
very sick from this stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So would you explain what exactly is happening in our
bodies when microplastics invade our organs and our bloodstream.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
So a few years ago, we published a paper that
showed plastics to be floating around in our bloodstream, and
of course your blood goes everywhere in your body, so
it will be present in all of your tissues and
organs as well. And we were a bit surprised how
much we did find. I mean, it's a preliminary study
that has since been redone and with similar results, so
(10:22):
it seems like we do have exposure in there. And
if a microplastic is in a bloodstream, and I've looked
at microplastics in blood samples under a microscope, and you
can see that your immune cells are really active, so
they immediately sense there's an invader and they will go
and attack this piece of plastic. And these immune cells
(10:45):
have enzymes inside which they try to break down the
plastic because they're treating the plastic particle like a bacteria.
But the problem is that plastics, unlike bacteria, don't succumb
to an enzyme attack. So after a few days, the
cell gives up and the enzymes get released into whatever
(11:05):
tissue is nearby that can also cause an inflammation, and
then the plastic still remains there. And I don't know
how long it will take for a body to eliminate
the plastic that it receives today. Nobody, I think, knows
that yet, but we do know that the rate of
absorption of these plastics is certainly faster than the rate
(11:28):
that we are able to eliminate them. Otherwise we wouldn't
be finding them in our bodies, in all these organs
that you see in the news and also in our
study in the bloodstream.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
When did this first pop up, and maybe even particularly
in American culture, did something change in industry or was this.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Always the case?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
We were always ingesting a ton of microplastics, and only
in the last ten twenty years are we studying it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Well, the very first signals of microplastics was in the
Sergasso Sea and that was the end of the sixties.
But there were also patents for using pulverized plastic in
makeup like blush and things like that, those who go
back to the fifties. Even so, it's been on some
people's radars, but certainly hasn't been on mainstream radar until
(12:18):
fairly recently. And one of the people who was really
instrumental in bringing it to the public was Captain Charles Moore,
also from California, who went out sailing on the Pacific
Ocean and stumbled across old toothbrushes and bottles and toys
that were floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean,
(12:38):
and he thought, that's crazy, what are these things doing here?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And he's been.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
Also studying microplastics in the sea as well, so he
really put it on the map.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I would say, we have to take a quick break,
but we'll be right back with doctor Heather Leslie. And
we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Well, doctor Leslie, we also have to give you your
flowers because you are a leading expert in this space,
and you're known for your pioneering research in identifying and
quantifying microplastics in human bloodstream for the very first time,
which is huge. And you also led the EU's first
research project on marine plastic pollution, which you were just
speaking about the prevalence of microplastics in marine pollution. How
(13:30):
much has changed from your vantage point? How has the
prevalence of microplastics in society evolved since you started doing
this work.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah, I really noticed a lot of more attention than
compared to the past. I mean sometimes I'm sitting on
the train and I hear some people talking about cleaning
products or microplastics in their toothpaste. And it's not just
because of my research, but also because of NGOs that
amplify the message and they take the research that they
put it out there in their platforms, and I think
(14:02):
there's a lot of awareness now.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
School kids seem to know just as much as I know.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
If I speak to them, they're full of knowledge and
also solutions and they're very very concerned, so they're very
easy also to make their changes. You know, they love nature,
they love animals, and they're willing to do something for it.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Well, I have two kids, and I think about just
how hard it is to limit their exposure to microplastics.
I mean, plastic seems to be the prevailing material that
companies use to create products for children. It's in the toys,
it's in the sippy cups, it's in the plastic plates.
And I know that I should be reaching for stainless steel,
(14:44):
But I'd love to hear any alternatives that you might
have for parents out there who are looking to limit
exposure in their own home.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Children are also, that's an early life stage, and they
are more sensitive than adults to a lot of these
hormone disrupting chemicals and possibly also the microplastics itself. So
we've seen some studies coming out about baby bottles that
you know, especially when you heat up plastic or have
warm liquids or warm food in plastic containers, that's really
(15:16):
when processes go a little faster and you get even
more exposure. So, as I said, if there's no plastic
in the product, it won't come out into your food
or it won't be exposed to your child to plastic.
It's very difficult, but I think it's okay to start
with one thing and slowly work your way up to
(15:37):
seeing how far you can get, see how jazzed up
you can get. To reduce your plastic exposure. A lot
of kids will put things in their mouths. You have
the stuffed animals, and I think, you know, we can't
just reduce the amount of joy that kids get from
having their toys, but we can start to, especially for
really young age groups that put a lot of things
(15:59):
into their mouths, try to reduce the amount of things
that are made of plastic and look for more natural
materials than natural dyes and things like that. But I
feel sorry for parents because it seems like a big
mountain of work to do, just like for adults, but
for children it's a special case.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yes, it's very intimidating.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, and I'm here really to say not to be intimidated.
I think just to do the best you can to
set the intention. Whenever you make a choice, maybe it'll
enter your head and you'll be able to choose a
different option. And that's the way to go. Because we
can't change everything overnight. But there are so many things
that we can do, and I think a lot of
(16:39):
people look towards the government and waiting for them to
change things for us. And it's also an American style
of thinking to just think for yourself to get it
done without help, you know, And I really admire that.
I think that's the way to go because in my experience,
I've talked a lot with governments, but I think they're
going to be the last ones. After all the companies
(17:02):
have changed and all the people like us have changed
into a new way of living, then they're going to
catch up and they'll regulate it all for us. But
you know, I really think that we have to be
ahead of the game to draw us into the future
of living a less plasticized life.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's a really important perspective shift. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I am really into trying to reduce toxins in my life.
Cleaning products, makeup, even my mattress, bath towels. A few
years ago really tried to do an overhaul. And I
remember asking my physician when I was like at the
beginning stages of this, if I made one swap today,
(17:45):
what is the first thing that I should do? And
this was just his personal perspective, but he said, deodorant
because it's going right into your lymph nodes. If you
could swap one thing, that would be my recommendation. So
I say that all to say, I know this is
a tough question, but if you could make the number
one recommendation today, what is one way that we can
(18:06):
reduce our exposure to microplastics?
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I would have to go with food. So processed food,
like getting away from whole foods will get you into
more microplastics and also other chemicals.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I think it's for all around health.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
It's a really very very strong way to make a
difference in your exposure. Of course, food is something is
going right into our bodies, just like a deodorant through
the skin.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
But I mean.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Ingesting something is very direct way of getting it inside.
I mean, just about two generations, I think the world
has kind of switched to things that come in a package,
and the packaging releases a lot of chemicals and also microplastics.
If you rip something open, of course, plastic is going
to get inside. Chewing gum is also made of plastic.
(18:55):
You don't swallow it normally, but you could also avoid that.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So yeah, I would say.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Food is is a really big source of a lot
of toxicity.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
At the same time as being something that keeps us alive.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
But I think if you can improve your food quality,
I think it's the single most thing I would recommend.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
That is huge. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
It's time for another short break. We'll be right back
with doctor Heather Leslie. And we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Doctor Leslie, can we go through a few potential swaps
for plastic with you?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
All right, let's talk about tea bags, paper coffee cups,
you know the ones that you get at coffee shops.
Are there any swaps for these?
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Sure yeah. Paper cups with the polyethylene lining, and the
polyethylene will start to melt even before one hundred degrees
celsius like boiling water temperature. So I would say if
you don't need to buy a coffee in one of
those cups, or if you can get it in a
real cup or bring your on cup, it's much better.
Tea bags also give off a lot of microplastics, and
(20:07):
loose tea is lovely to use. You have a little
tea egg or in my teapot, a teapot with a
built in little filter.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Last year we spoke with a doctor who told us
to never ever microwave or reheat anything that's in plastic.
What exactly happens when we microwave plastic? How bad is it?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Well, yeah, that's another heating process.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
So the plastic gets warmed up, and that will encourage
the chemicals that are in the plastic to leave and
go in volatilized. They just evaporate and they go into
your food. And then also the material is a little
bit structurally damaged by every heating episode, so a little
bit of microplastic will will be released. Then using plastic
(20:50):
in a microwave is not a good idea. You can
just put it in a glass container or ceramic container
and heat it up.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I think that one of the biggest scams of the
twin first century was bottled water. Everybody thought that nodding
your head, yes, we were doing a good thing by
or a healthy thing by drinking water. And there's a
ton of reasons that bottled water is bad, but microplastics
has to be at the top of that list.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Are you able to explain why it's.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Very difficult to measure microplastics in water?
Speaker 5 (21:22):
I can say, but there are studies that have found
just millions of them, you know, or at least hundreds
of thousands in one liter.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
That's a lot.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
And I don't think you need a toxicologist to tell
you that you don't want to be drinking water which
has a quarter of a million microplastics in it. And
the other thing about bottled water is it's usually tap
waters from somewhere else, and it costs like two thousand
times more than tap water, and we buy it because
it's convenient, and sometimes we think it tastes good or
(21:53):
it's better quality than our tap water. But I think
you know, if you really want to have good drinking
water which you can bring with you in your own
bottle that doesn't have to be plastic, you can also
look into filtering water at home. We're not very much money.
The price that you pay for bottled water for a
whole year will certainly pay for for a filtration unit.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Of course, as I'm hearing you speak, I have all
these images rushing to my mind of all the microplastics
I've engaged with over the course of my thirty seven
years on this earth. And there's one scene in particular
that I'm thinking about where I visited a recycling plant
when I was a journalist and was watching the process
of breaking down all these plastic bottles into small, tiny
(22:40):
pieces to then have them remade into new products. But
when I'm hearing you speak, I'm questioning the impact of
microplastics on recycling and sustainability efforts around the world. We
kind of were under this impression that recycling and breaking
(23:00):
down plastic and creating new products was a good thing.
But what I'm hearing you say is that that's probably
not a good thing.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Recycling is a tricky one because it can work for
certain types of plastics, like food contact material plastics which
don't have a lot of additives in them. But it's
very very tricky to bring back used plastic, know what's
in it, and make something else out of it.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
It's also takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
There's a lot of worry with manufacturing that there might
be some residual additives in it, so that's why a
lot of people don't want to use that. And the
other problem is that the material itself is not as functional,
so to make something completely out of recycled plastic is
really difficult, so you always have to add what we
call virgin plastics with it in order to get functionality.
(23:50):
So actually I think the things that nature recycles. I
think nature is really good at recycling its own stuff.
And when we are making our new.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Fangled plastics, we have to also think about how it
could be recycled too, And if we're not good at
recycling it, maybe we should use a lot less of it.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
And of course there's some really good applications of plastic.
We're using plastic just to do this interview, but I
think there's a lot of plastic applications that are kind
of low hanging fruit, you know, the things that are
single use, and that there is a really good alternative
for a lot of things are just overpackaged.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
If we're eating a lot of processed food, then there's
extra packaging, you know. But if you buy the fruits
and vegetables, they're packaged by nature, you know, and those
those packages are going to be recycled also by nature
very easily.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Well, doctor Leslie, we have not stopped peppering you with questions,
so clearly there's a lot of interest in this topic.
And also there are so many opinions out there are
going to be hard to know who to trust on this.
So with that in mind, will you help us bust
some microplastic myths I'll try.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
First up, we've been hearing that BPA free products are
safer than traditional plastics.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Is that true?
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Well, my big question when they say it's BPA free,
I say, well, I want to know, not what's not
in it.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
I want to know what is in it.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
And sometimes BPA has been taken out, but they put
in something that's very very similar to BPA that also
has similar toxicity.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So BPA is something.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
You don't want to have in your plastic, in your
water bottles or in your baby bottles. It's another endocrine
disrupting chemical, but you don't want them to replace it
like a chemical substitution that's just as bad as what
you used to have, like jumping from the frying pan
into the fire.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Are all plastics created equal?
Speaker 5 (25:45):
No, There's some that are more environmentally damaging or more
dangerous to your health than others.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
And you know, you have food.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Contact plastic, which they really try to make non toxic,
but then you have some types of plastic that not
paying attention to toxicity at all, and they really go
for it. And so there's definitely differences. There's at least
ten thousand different types of plastic on the market, different recipes.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
While we're on the topic of food, there's also been
concerns of microplastics in seafood, and especially shellfish, because we
usually eat the entire animal, microplastics included. Unfortunately, one study
found that people who eat large amounts of seafood and
jest up to eleven thousand microplastic particles a year.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Should we avoid seafood.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
Well, yeah, and seafood especially filter feeders like muscles and oysters.
They can really filter out a lot of microplastics. And indeed,
you're eating the whole animal, and if it hasn't had
a chance to get rid of its guts, you're going
to have some microplastics in it. So it's I think,
you know, you can enjoy seafood. Sometimes there's also other
issues about with different things in the sea with seafood,
(26:57):
like mercury. Sometimes depends where the seafood comes from, and
if it's from a relatively clean area, then it's fine.
I think the study you mean was a Belgian study
which was in a not very clean area of the
North Sea. So you know, everything in moderation. I would say,
what about.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
The clothes in our closets.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
There's a good chance the majority of my closet right
now is made up of plastic fabrics that contain plastic
like polyester and nylon. Should we be avoiding synthetic fabrics altogether.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Yeah, Synthetic fabrics are a really good source of plastic exposure.
Your clothing is next to your skin, so that's your
biggest organ So any chemicals that are in those fabrics,
especially when they're new, will be leaching out in into
your skin, and microplastics will be coming off with the
microfibers with wear and tear, so you can breed them
in and they can also enter the wastewater systems and
(27:50):
your surface water with the.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Laundering of them.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
So if you want to reduce your microplastic posure through
your clothes, you can just think about next time you
go shopping if you can find something that has more
natural ingredients in it, so cotton or linen or wool clothing.
I would personally avoid nylon. There's also research being done
here in the Netherlands about nylon, and this was with
(28:15):
lung cells and the lung cells really didn't like to
be near the nylon, so when they were growing in
the laboratory on their own, and there was nylon fibers
put in there, or even water where nylon fibers had
been present, that was enough to stop them from growing.
And it doesn't say you're going to get sick, but
(28:36):
it's just another signal that I think, you know, no
paralysis by analysis. I just want to do something now.
If I don't need this product, I'm not going to
bring it into my home. And the other thing about toxicology,
which I should say which might be comforting, is we
always say the dose makes the poison. So a little
bit of poison is manageable, and it's only during a
(28:59):
cross exposure to to something that's really toxic are you
going to really see health effects. So I think it's
it's also a case of do you feel like changing
or does it not matter too much to you? You know,
And for the things you feel like changing, it's going
to be easy to find an alternative. It's just kind
of raise your awareness first, and then that affects all
(29:22):
the choices that you make.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Here on in Okay, what about makeup?
Speaker 3 (29:26):
How bad is the microplastic content in lipstick, lipbalm, mascara,
even eyeliner.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Women who wear lipstick apparently eat several kilos of it
during a lifetime. So if there's plastic in there, and
I have looked at that and also Lipbam, there's a
lot of plastic components in that. So if you can
find brands that are more from the natural cosmetics lines,
then you will be reducing your amounts of exposure, especially
(29:55):
toothpaste and lipstick and lip ball, but also anything that
to put on your face. We know that microplastics have
a really hard time going through the skin, but the
chemicals that are in microplastics will be able to be
absorbed by the skin in many cases.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I just want to share a resource because it's the
only thing that's helped me. Ewg dot org, slash skin deep.
You can put in all of your ingredients, brands, personal
care products and see all of that stuff and try
and make a swap because it's really hard to look
things up product by product without it. This is my
(30:32):
last question for you. You are probably the only expert that
I have heard that makes this feel less overwhelming, and
I can imagine that people listening are still going to
walk away feeling a little doom and gloom. Here as
someone who's knee deep in the research. How do you
remain optimistic on this.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
Well, one of the advices that I got from someone
was to never be a pessimist, because pessimists never get
anything done. So he recommended being an optimist. And I
also do really do have a vision for how we
can do things better for our planet and for our
kids and for our own health.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And I'm I.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Think it's it's really fun to just stop and think
about the world that I want, thinking about when I
wake up, where do I want to wake up, who's there,
what stuff is there? What am I going to do today?
What am I going to do this evening? What am
I going to do this weekend? All of these things
that you know, we don't often stop to think about
(31:35):
what we really want, what kind of materials do we want?
What kind of buildings are we living in and working in.
You can really have a wonderful time with yourself just
being quiet and thinking about how it would feel to
live in that world. That's the first step, and then
you can think of what can I do today that's
(31:56):
a little bit like that world, you know, And I
see a lot of people all doing that, taking small
steps because it's too overwhelming to get it all done
even this year. You know, it's just it's a question
of small steps with a real intention, using your imagination
to go in the direction that you really feel good
about going in. Make it fun, and you're not going
(32:19):
to enjoy anything any less. You're going to enjoy things
more when you're more aligned with what you really want
in deep in your heart. And that's something that we
don't really talk about very much. It's kind of uncomfortable
because we think, well, what I want is so far
from what I have, or all sorts of things that
can make us anxious. But really go back into the
vision of your future, the way you want your.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Today to be, and see how far you can get.
And it's a wonderful process and I think.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
If anybody out there listening will try it. It's very
empowering because you're not outsourcing your power to somebody else,
some company who has to reformulate, some advertiser who has
to advertise something else to you, or to the government
that has to fix everything, but really just in your
own individual life doing it your way.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Well, you really are changing the world with your intentionality,
optimism and insights.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Thank you so much, doctor Leslie.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Thank you too.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and leading expert in
microplastics based in Amsterdam.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Tomorrow, we're joined by the hilarious author, comedian and TV
host Chelsea Handler. Her new book, I'll Have What She's
Having is out next Tuesday, February twenty fifth.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh. And
feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And then follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hosts And Creators
Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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