Brian Roche: Public Service Commissioner on the report into the public service and their handling of public data

A push for government agencies to raise the bar when handling public data.  

The Public Service Commission's revealed multiple failures by Stats New Zealand, Health New Zealand, and the Ministry of Health, with regard to safeguarding data.   

It comes after allegations surfaced last June about a potential misuse of Census and Covid vaccine data by providers at Manurewa Marae. 

Public Service Commissioner Sir Brian Roche told Mike Hosking that there’s a broader issue. 

He says the model that’s been used is very good and the people who work in it are amazing, but the model is no longer fit for purpose. 

"We live in a world that’s changing dramatically, we’ve got the adoption of technology and all of those things, and we need to sort of face into that and get ahead of the curve.” 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You had to really read yesterday's report to believe it.
It is the Public Service Commission's report into the use
of census in COVID data at Moneea Marai. It's important
to point out whether that information was misused at the
Mariah's being investigated separately by various people, including the police.
The report focused on. This report focused on government departments.
As it turns out, well, they were all seemingly pretty hopeless.

(00:20):
The Public Service Commissioner is Sir Brian Roche, of course,
and he is with's a very good morning to you.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Good morning light.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
So you've been around a while. How do you explain
all this?

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I think it's very hard to explain, as I said yesterday,
and you will have.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Read the report yourself. It's very sobering reading.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
This is a massive wake up call for slack practices,
in lack professionalism in the safeguardian of information. And I
think the appropriate actions have been taken and we're looking
to modify the way we do this.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
What's worse the fact that they had the initial problem,
or the second problem, which is when they were alluded
to the initial problem, they did nothing about it.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
That continues to be a mystery to me as to
why somebody wouldn't have done it, and that's why we've
ended up where we are. I mean, I think we
need government agencies to be listening modifying their actions at
all times, and in this case, they weren't listening to
the voice of many who were saying there's.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
A mischief here.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Is that an arrogance.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
I don't think it is all an arrogance. I think
they were under pressure. I mean, the Status Department has
done really, really good work, so this was a blip,
but it's a significant blip. I don't think they're arrogant
at all. But you know, when you are under pressure,
you sometimes lose your ability to listen and think rationally.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
And I give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Is there something unique within the public service that you
are discovering having also been in the private sector that
and I've done the same thing. I can't explain it.
It's just different. Is it different? And is that part
of the problem?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
There's different?

Speaker 3 (01:57):
I challenge whether it has to be different to the
private sects. Certainly they don't work for profit, and you know,
I've said quite publicly they are large organizations.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
I think there is a lot more to be learned.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
From the public, from the private sector that could be
adopted in the public sector. And that's what I'm currently
trying to explore what that would mean.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Does this debtail into what you said the other day
that the public service isn't fit for purpose, and that
is that no one owns anything? Is that part of
the problem. No one owns anything because they don't know anything,
they don't make decisions.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's a broader issue I think where I mean the
model that we've used is very good.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
The people who work and are amazing.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think New Zealanders should be really proud of the
public servants and the public service, but it's no longer
fit for purpose. We live in a rarely a world
that's changing dramatically. We've got the adoption of technology and
all of those things, and we need to sort of
face into that and get ahead of the curve. And
I think as a small country we should have that ambition.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Do you reckon we can do that? Are you sort
of a less de leevy? In other words, you've got
this gargantuan job, and you've found on these gargantuan problems
and turning this thing around as a nightmare.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, less, it would probably be embarrassed.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
No, I'm not. I am really confident of our ability
to do this. We have a lot of great things happening.
If you look at you know what happened with customs
the other day, being able to detect that hundred million
dollars meant we've got smart people using smart technology. But
we need to make that what the whole system does,
just not the old pocket. But I remain really confident

(03:29):
that we can deliver for the New Zealand taxpayer.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Are government departments or on your recommendation, going to get
blown up? Are there simply too many departments?

Speaker 3 (03:39):
I've raised the question that I think, you know, when
you're using public money, you have to be able to
justify your adding value. And I think some of our
agencies are below scale, which means we have duplication of
high fixed costs. I just think it's a question that
we need to address and have a grown up conversation about.
I don't have a plan to reach ructure at all.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
What I don't understand explain it to people who are
listening to this because on one hand, and I'm sure
you're right, there are people in the public service who
are really good, really skilled, and we should value them
more than we do. And yet you looked at several
departments and each and every one of them was hopeless.
So how do you balance those two up?

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, look, I don't think they were completely hopeless, so
a challenge there are less and for them to be learned.
As I said, this is a massive wake up call.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
At one level.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
There's a lot to be learned from it, and so
that we should be thankful. But we can never have
this situation occur again where there is a laxed attitude
to the privacy and sanctity of citizens information.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Right, nice to talk to you, appreciate it and go
well with the job, Sir Brian runs, Who's the Public
Service Commissioner. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen
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