September 25, 2024 • 11 mins
There’s plenty of self help books on the shelves, but one in particular has cut through the nonsense for millions of people.
Mark Manson is the author behind ‘The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck’, which has sold more than 20 million copies since its publication in 2016.
Manson is making his way to New Zealand in November as part of his ‘The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Tour’, where he talks about what made the book a success and offers more “no-BS” live advice.
He told Mike Hosking the book stemmed from his disillusionment with the self help material he’d consumed when he was young.
“I thought a lot of it was very... just BS, and Pollyanna,” Manson said.
“So in the early 2010s, I started asking myself like, okay, what would actually like, if there was a form of self help that was just very honest about how difficult life's problems can be and how difficult the solutions to life's problems can be, what would that look like?”
Although he was optimistic the book would do well upon its release, the sheer extent of it’s success was a surprise to Manson.
“It's the extent of it that was just so mind blowing and, and still to this day, it is kind of surprising to me."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So a catch up with an author whose book changed
his life. The Subtle Art of Not Giving An F
was published back in twenty sixteen, gone on to sell
more than twenty million copies in counting, and that, along
with a couple of other couple of other self help
books New York Times best sellers. He's coming back here
in November as part of his The Subtle Art of
Not Giving an IF tour and Mike Manson's with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Morning, good morning. Now that I've got.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You in Los Angeles. Last time we talked to you,
you were on the other side of the country, but
in Los Angeles. What's your Because Los Angeles is one
of my favorite cities in the world. What's your observation
of Los Angeles and its reputation post covid.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Ooh, Los Angeles is a mixed bag because I think
what most people don't realize is that it's not one
big city. It's like ten small cities all crammed together.
So you can have there can be one experience in
one place, and then you just go three or four
blocks in one direction and the city completely changes. So
(00:56):
it's a very like heterogenerous experience being here.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Okay, So good and bad.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I was going to say, because the reputation from the
side of the world is Los Angeles is not what
it was. You would argue differently if you go to
the right bit of.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
It, Well, define what was I mean.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hollywood's broke, So that's that's that's definitely one thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, that's true that they've had the strike since I
was last year and listen, I was looking I was
looking at you with Stephen Bartlett on his Diary of
a CEO. I think that is as a podcast is
absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You were playing poker with your friends they wanted to
get into finance. You thought I might do that as
is that how your life was unfolding before this whole
book thing came along pretty much.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I mean when I was in Universe and when I
was in university. Yeah, I thought I was going to
go in the finance because I love playing poker. I
was really good at it. All my poker buddies were
going in the finance. But I think when you're that age,
you don't think much further than that. You just kind
of like, well, I like this thing, I'm good at it.
It makes some money. Let's go do that and then
(02:08):
you know, lo and behold it's uh. I hated every
second of it. I couldn't wait to get out. So
so yeah, it was a nice little experiment in my twenties.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
As an exercise in writing a book, getting famous, and
transforming your life.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
How's it gone for you?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
No complaints, No complaints.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's one of those things where you know, in some
ways it the reality lives up to your dreams and
your expectations, but in a lot of ways it doesn't
play out the way you expect. You know, I think
there's it's a it's a natural human tendency to have
this big dreamer goal and assume like, oh, if I
can just accomplish that, then everything will be amazing, and
(02:55):
and don't get me wrong, it is amazing, but it
never plays out the way you expect. It's always messier
and different and and all sorts of challenges that you
didn't you didn't expect along the way. So I'm very
blessed and grateful, but it's it's been kind of a
crazy ride.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, So would you change it if you could?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Or not? No? No, no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't take
anything back.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Now because the idea was and once again correct me
if I'm wrong. I think you wanted to get famous,
didn't you. You wanted to write a book that was
going to turn your life around.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
That was a goal.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
My goal was to be a best selling author. My
goal was, you know, I wanted to be on the
New York Times List. I wanted to sell a bunch
of books. I never fathomed that as much as that
has happened, would happen like this was completely out of
the realm of possibility to my young, innocent mind.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Where did you get Where did you get the idea from?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So I had been blogging for about six years online,
I'd built a pretty steady audience, and you know, I
when I was young, I consumed a lot of self
help material.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
And I was.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Kind of disillusioned with it. I thought a lot of
it was very just bs and Pollyanna and just like
really tell like it was designed to make you feel
good about your life and not actually like do anything
about your life. And so in the early twenty tens,
I started asking myself, like, Okay, what would actually like
(04:37):
if there was a form of self help that was
just very honest about how difficult life's problems can be,
and how difficult the solutions to life's problems can be.
What would that look like and what would it sound like?
And how would you have to write it so that
people would actually enjoy reading it? And that was kind
of I guess so my own frustrations with the industry
(05:00):
is the starting.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Point for what eventually became my books.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Were you surprised when it happened?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Uh? I was surprised the extent of it, you know.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I I was pretty optimistic when the book came out
that it was going to do well and that it
would it would resonate and and sell well. But you know,
I think it was number one in thirteen different countries.
It sold seventeen million copies worldwide. At this point, you know,
I'm going back to New Zealand again to do a
(05:35):
speaking event eight years later, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
So it's just all of these things are it's the
it's the extent of.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It that was just so mind blowing and still to
this day is kind of surprising to me.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Exactly now, without getting too existential about it, is what
drove all of the success in the book and all
of that sort of thing. I I want to be
an author, a successful author, versus say I was going
to do this no matter what. I just happened to
get famous.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
No, I mean my I've never been primarily motivated by
like fame or money. It's to me, it's like fame
and money are useful ways to measure your progress in
this field. You know, for me it was I was
very much driven I still am driven by, for lack
(06:26):
of a better term, like cleaning up the self help industry,
like like fixing you know, putting out good advice that
actually works and it's actually useful for people and is
practical and the scientifically based. Like that's always been the motivation.
I think just in the process of doing that. A
(06:48):
good way to measure the impact that you're having is, Okay,
how many books am I selling, how many people are
reading my my newsletter each week? How many interviews am
I doing?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
It?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Like those become useful metrics on away, but they were
never the point, Like I can honestly say that, you know,
I probably would have done the same thing even if
it if it the book didn't do nearly as well.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Does the way of expectations said heavily on your shoulders
These days because of your success.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Uh it did for a number of years. I think
there there's like this, you know in the in showbiz,
they call it a sophomore slump, which is when your
debut thing is just massively successful. There's all of this
expectation and pressure that's put on you for like the
next thing, and I definitely suffered quite a bit from that.
(07:41):
I think at this point though, I'm like, I'm far
enough removed in my career to uh.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Well not given f to realize so realize that that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I'm going to create a lot of things over the
course of my life, and I'm going to do a
lot of things, and some of them are going to
be really successed and some of them are.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Gonna bomb horribly. And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't get to choose which ones turn out which,
So I just need to do the best work I
possibly can. It took me a number of years to get, yeah,
to that point, but I am there today.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I think you're very lucky. How old are you?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I just turned forty, Okay, so you turn forty. I'm
fifty nine, right, So I feel that I'm like you,
I've been around a long time. It doesn't matter anymore.
I just have the best time, and it is what
it is. But that took me a long time to
get where I am at. Whereas if you, if you try,
which is my question, do you truly believe what you
just said is true?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean it's some of
that is just having enough experience to trust yourself, I think,
and not depend so much on like, oh my god,
are people going to like me? Are they going to
like my new thing? It's you have to kind of
you need to do enough work in the world to, like,
(09:00):
I guess, earn the confidence to to stay on the path.
But I mean some of it too, is just uh
you know, financial security, Like it's if the next thing bombs, like,
I'm gonna be okay, so I don't it. Actually the
sixth there was a real mindset shift for me when
I stopped thinking of the subtle art and not giving
(09:23):
it enough as something that I needed to live up to,
and started thinking of it as something that like bought
me creative freedom for the rest.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Of my life.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And so you did you come to that conclusion by
yourself or did somebody point that out to you? Uh?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I mean I'm I'm sure it Like it was a
multi year process and I talked to a lot of
people in my life, you know, as I struggled through it.
So but it ultimately, yeah, it was something that I
had to like bash into my thick skull.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Uh at some point, how do you how do you
turned it into a show?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
What do you mean when you're coming to New Zealand
you're going to be presenting it as a shot, like like, well,
what's on stage that wasn't on in the book? Or
is it what's on stage what was in the book?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No, it's completely different. I mean it will be uh,
you know, inspired by the philosophy of the book. But
essentially what's on stage is it's ninety percent new material,
it's new ideas, it's stuff that I've been working on
the past few years. It'll be part talk, lots of jokes,
some fun stories, audience Q and A. They'll be meeting
(10:37):
greets afterwards, so it'll just be a fun night and
for people who you know, want to learn something, want
to improve something in their lives, want to meet other
people who are on a similar path.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Fantastic, it'll be great. Fantastic that your view on TikTok.
I couldn't agree more. If if you do nothing else
in the world, get people off TikTok.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes please, we can advertise that down there and Arkland
and well to you know, it's like come to the
Mark Manson show. It's better than TikTok.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yes, well exactly, and you're not actually saying much by
saying that, but anyway, it's going to be. It's going
to be a good chunk here. Listen, lovely to talk
with you. Go well and we'll maybe talk when you
get here.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Mike Benson out of Los Angeles, who show, by the way,
is Friday, November the fifteenth in Auckland, if you're interested
in that. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
So a catch up with an author whose book changed
his life. The Subtle Art of Not Giving An F
was published back in twenty sixteen, gone on to sell
more than twenty million copies in counting, and that, along
with a couple of other couple of other self help
books New York Times best sellers. He's coming back here
in November as part of his The Subtle Art of
Not Giving an IF tour and Mike Manson's with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Morning, good morning. Now that I've got.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You in Los Angeles. Last time we talked to you,
you were on the other side of the country, but
in Los Angeles. What's your Because Los Angeles is one
of my favorite cities in the world. What's your observation
of Los Angeles and its reputation post covid.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Ooh, Los Angeles is a mixed bag because I think
what most people don't realize is that it's not one
big city. It's like ten small cities all crammed together.
So you can have there can be one experience in
one place, and then you just go three or four
blocks in one direction and the city completely changes. So
(00:56):
it's a very like heterogenerous experience being here.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Okay, So good and bad.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I was going to say, because the reputation from the
side of the world is Los Angeles is not what
it was. You would argue differently if you go to
the right bit of.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
It, Well, define what was I mean.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hollywood's broke, So that's that's that's definitely one thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, that's true that they've had the strike since I
was last year and listen, I was looking I was
looking at you with Stephen Bartlett on his Diary of
a CEO. I think that is as a podcast is
absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You were playing poker with your friends they wanted to
get into finance. You thought I might do that as
is that how your life was unfolding before this whole
book thing came along pretty much.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I mean when I was in Universe and when I
was in university. Yeah, I thought I was going to
go in the finance because I love playing poker. I
was really good at it. All my poker buddies were
going in the finance. But I think when you're that age,
you don't think much further than that. You just kind
of like, well, I like this thing, I'm good at it.
It makes some money. Let's go do that and then
(02:08):
you know, lo and behold it's uh. I hated every
second of it. I couldn't wait to get out. So
so yeah, it was a nice little experiment in my twenties.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
As an exercise in writing a book, getting famous, and
transforming your life.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
How's it gone for you?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
No complaints, No complaints.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's one of those things where you know, in some
ways it the reality lives up to your dreams and
your expectations, but in a lot of ways it doesn't
play out the way you expect. You know, I think
there's it's a it's a natural human tendency to have
this big dreamer goal and assume like, oh, if I
can just accomplish that, then everything will be amazing, and
(02:55):
and don't get me wrong, it is amazing, but it
never plays out the way you expect. It's always messier
and different and and all sorts of challenges that you
didn't you didn't expect along the way. So I'm very
blessed and grateful, but it's it's been kind of a
crazy ride.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, So would you change it if you could?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Or not? No? No, no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't take
anything back.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Now because the idea was and once again correct me
if I'm wrong. I think you wanted to get famous,
didn't you. You wanted to write a book that was
going to turn your life around.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
That was a goal.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
My goal was to be a best selling author. My
goal was, you know, I wanted to be on the
New York Times List. I wanted to sell a bunch
of books. I never fathomed that as much as that
has happened, would happen like this was completely out of
the realm of possibility to my young, innocent mind.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Where did you get Where did you get the idea from?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So I had been blogging for about six years online,
I'd built a pretty steady audience, and you know, I
when I was young, I consumed a lot of self
help material.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
And I was.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Kind of disillusioned with it. I thought a lot of
it was very just bs and Pollyanna and just like
really tell like it was designed to make you feel
good about your life and not actually like do anything
about your life. And so in the early twenty tens,
I started asking myself, like, Okay, what would actually like
(04:37):
if there was a form of self help that was
just very honest about how difficult life's problems can be,
and how difficult the solutions to life's problems can be.
What would that look like and what would it sound like?
And how would you have to write it so that
people would actually enjoy reading it? And that was kind
of I guess so my own frustrations with the industry
(05:00):
is the starting.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Point for what eventually became my books.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Were you surprised when it happened?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Uh? I was surprised the extent of it, you know.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I I was pretty optimistic when the book came out
that it was going to do well and that it
would it would resonate and and sell well. But you know,
I think it was number one in thirteen different countries.
It sold seventeen million copies worldwide. At this point, you know,
I'm going back to New Zealand again to do a
(05:35):
speaking event eight years later, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
So it's just all of these things are it's the
it's the extent of.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It that was just so mind blowing and still to
this day is kind of surprising to me.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Exactly now, without getting too existential about it, is what
drove all of the success in the book and all
of that sort of thing. I I want to be
an author, a successful author, versus say I was going
to do this no matter what. I just happened to
get famous.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
No, I mean my I've never been primarily motivated by
like fame or money. It's to me, it's like fame
and money are useful ways to measure your progress in
this field. You know, for me it was I was
very much driven I still am driven by, for lack
(06:26):
of a better term, like cleaning up the self help industry,
like like fixing you know, putting out good advice that
actually works and it's actually useful for people and is
practical and the scientifically based. Like that's always been the motivation.
I think just in the process of doing that. A
(06:48):
good way to measure the impact that you're having is, Okay,
how many books am I selling, how many people are
reading my my newsletter each week? How many interviews am
I doing?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
It?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Like those become useful metrics on away, but they were
never the point, Like I can honestly say that, you know,
I probably would have done the same thing even if
it if it the book didn't do nearly as well.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Does the way of expectations said heavily on your shoulders
These days because of your success.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Uh it did for a number of years. I think
there there's like this, you know in the in showbiz,
they call it a sophomore slump, which is when your
debut thing is just massively successful. There's all of this
expectation and pressure that's put on you for like the
next thing, and I definitely suffered quite a bit from that.
(07:41):
I think at this point though, I'm like, I'm far
enough removed in my career to uh.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Well not given f to realize so realize that that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I'm going to create a lot of things over the
course of my life, and I'm going to do a
lot of things, and some of them are going to
be really successed and some of them are.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Gonna bomb horribly. And that's okay.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't get to choose which ones turn out which,
So I just need to do the best work I
possibly can. It took me a number of years to get, yeah,
to that point, but I am there today.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I think you're very lucky. How old are you?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I just turned forty, Okay, so you turn forty. I'm
fifty nine, right, So I feel that I'm like you,
I've been around a long time. It doesn't matter anymore.
I just have the best time, and it is what
it is. But that took me a long time to
get where I am at. Whereas if you, if you try,
which is my question, do you truly believe what you
just said is true?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean it's some of
that is just having enough experience to trust yourself, I think,
and not depend so much on like, oh my god,
are people going to like me? Are they going to
like my new thing? It's you have to kind of
you need to do enough work in the world to, like,
(09:00):
I guess, earn the confidence to to stay on the path.
But I mean some of it too, is just uh
you know, financial security, Like it's if the next thing bombs, like,
I'm gonna be okay, so I don't it. Actually the
sixth there was a real mindset shift for me when
I stopped thinking of the subtle art and not giving
(09:23):
it enough as something that I needed to live up to,
and started thinking of it as something that like bought
me creative freedom for the rest.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Of my life.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And so you did you come to that conclusion by
yourself or did somebody point that out to you? Uh?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I mean I'm I'm sure it Like it was a
multi year process and I talked to a lot of
people in my life, you know, as I struggled through it.
So but it ultimately, yeah, it was something that I
had to like bash into my thick skull.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Uh at some point, how do you how do you
turned it into a show?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
What do you mean when you're coming to New Zealand
you're going to be presenting it as a shot, like like, well,
what's on stage that wasn't on in the book? Or
is it what's on stage what was in the book?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No, it's completely different. I mean it will be uh,
you know, inspired by the philosophy of the book. But
essentially what's on stage is it's ninety percent new material,
it's new ideas, it's stuff that I've been working on
the past few years. It'll be part talk, lots of jokes,
some fun stories, audience Q and A. They'll be meeting
(10:37):
greets afterwards, so it'll just be a fun night and
for people who you know, want to learn something, want
to improve something in their lives, want to meet other
people who are on a similar path.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Fantastic, it'll be great. Fantastic that your view on TikTok.
I couldn't agree more. If if you do nothing else
in the world, get people off TikTok.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes please, we can advertise that down there and Arkland
and well to you know, it's like come to the
Mark Manson show. It's better than TikTok.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yes, well exactly, and you're not actually saying much by
saying that, but anyway, it's going to be. It's going
to be a good chunk here. Listen, lovely to talk
with you. Go well and we'll maybe talk when you
get here.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Mike Benson out of Los Angeles, who show, by the way,
is Friday, November the fifteenth in Auckland, if you're interested
in that. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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