There have been a wide range of responses to Te Pāti Māori’s haka in the House last week.
Speaker Gerry Brownlee has confirmed he’s received complaints, and both David Seymour and Shane Jones have asked him to consider changes.
National's Mark Mitchell says he doesn't know of any rule change that could rein in Te Pāti Māori.
He told Mike Hosking that he doesn’t think they care about any sanctions that will be applied in Parliament.
“They just think that they can do what they like.”
Labour's Ginny Andersen says Te Pāti Māori's rule-breaking needs to be understood in context.
She says this issue means a lot to a lot of New Zealanders, to the extent that it brought tens of thousands of Kiwis to the steps of Parliament to protest.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Politics Wednesday. Mark Mitchell' whether's along with Ginny Anderson, Good
morning to you both.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Good morning, Mike, morning.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Jenny, Good morning, Mark, Good morning, Mike, Genny.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I have you got any Rhodes scholars on the Justice
Select Committee there? I'm looking at the list of names.
Who's who's your brightest member?
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Apart from David's a doctor, so he might squeak in, Yeah,
he's been a lecturer.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Duncan web useless cabinet minister according to Audrey Young, but
coming back for a strong finish, well.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I think you're going to need more skills than Rhodes
scholarship to handle some of the issues that'll be throwing
at that committee. It'll be a tough time.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Indeed, who's the weak link there?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I think, Oh goodness, where would I start? I think
it's going to be really hard to cheer it if
things get right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So Mega's in for a tough time. James Meaghan, I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Think he will be in for a tough time.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Great opening, Belle, never been heard from.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Since I've cheered that committee myself, and and I know
from experience through tough bills that it can be hard,
and this will be that. I'd say the hardest.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
One's I reckon, What what's this Jamie Arbuckle like deputy chair.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh, he's pretty quiet. He makes a good morning tea.
I'll say that when it's his turn.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Good on the morning teams. Taku Taku Tar Ferris Tucker's
is good. Yeah, he's I reckon.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
He's going to go on lively character. Well, it will
be interesting to see how it plays out because you
will have people you have Pobson's Pledge, who are pro
the bill. You'll have groups that are anti. So it
will depend on how they come, how they present themselves.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
The whole thing where you said you can't swear, Do
you think that's going to come to pass or do
you think you're dreaming?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
No, I think that will come to pass. That's unparliamentary language.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I was dancing on the floor, but that didn't
stop them.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah. Well, I think also the age wherein now we
have zoom a lot more and so one around the
country instead of coming in. So if someone is it's
a lot easier to handle a submission that gets out
of hand if it's on his zoom.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Call Mark.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Do you feel you strike me? I mean I might,
I know you reasonably well, I guess, but do you
do you strike me as a sort of a person
who doesn't mind a bit of decorum and manners. I mean,
what we're seeing at the moment is not good for
this country, is it.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And that's what we raise our kids, so I mean, yeah,
I know it sounds very simplicit, but my mum raised
me to treat others as how you'd have them treat you,
and I think that we should apply that to the House.
It doesn't mean that you can't be robust to bake,
but there should be decorum and people should treat each
other with respect. I don't like when it becomes personally.
I don't think there's any need for that. I think
(02:30):
in terms of the Select Committee, Jones Megan will do
an outstanding job of cheering that that's a good committee.
Having been a Select Committee cheer myself. He will enforce
and make sure that there is a standard behavior that
is expected, and if that is not meant, then he
will just quite something. He asked to submit us to
leave the committee and.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
That's the end of that. You guys, Ginny, I know
you don't speak on behalf of the whole party, but
to my PI Clark in terms of suspension and voting
for you guys sided with her? Why and do you
run a very real risk of being tainted and associated
permanently with a bunch of radicals.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
We stand against what David Seymour's bill proposes to do,
and we stand against the racial division that it causes
in New Zealand, and we would like the Prime Minister
to show some leadership and shut that down. Imagine this,
Imagine if a luxeen got up one day and said, actually,
this is causing New Zealand hurt, this is dividing us. David,
(03:26):
we don't want this bill to proceed through six months
at Select committee. Do you really think that David Seymour
is going to say I'm going to be a deputy
prime minister in about you know, four or five months,
but I'll give all that up and split the government.
I mean, he's not going to walk away. So I
think this demands that Luckson shows some leadership in a
situation that's causing our country a lot of pots.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, so no, that's your stance and I take that accepted.
But in might be Clark's case, you didn't vote to censure.
Why not?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
We stand with the view that the way this bill
has proceeded, we do not like it.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So we believe separate rules.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You're supported disorder in the House.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
What we are supporting is that the way the House
is run is unacceptable and the ongoing issues that have
been undermining the Maori, not just the Maori Party, but
the Marti people. I listened to Christopher Luxen on the
radio this morning and he said, well that we you know,
he doesn't like the bill even though it's proceeding to
(04:26):
six months at Select Committee, but he'll continue with doing
things such as they've disestablished the Maori Health Authority, They've
done a whole range of other things like removing Maori
language from government departments. He'll continue with doing. He thinks
that's a far more effective way of addressing the issue of.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It doesn't answer the question why he didn't sense since
you might be.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Clark, because we believe that what they're doing is wrong
and we want to tend to gain.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So it doesn't matter what the Maori Party do in
the Parliament. Break all the rules, no problem, that's good
with you.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I did not say that. I said in that particular
instance that you raised when we had a bill going
through this House that Luxon has the power to stop,
but it's not going to take that.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We believe what you are saying, though you're saying that
chaotic or disrespectful behavior in the House of Representatives is acceptable.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I did not say that. I think you're putting words
to my mouth. Mark, would you like me to answer?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
You answered it from the we don't like the policy.
I get that, everyone gets that, but you're not the one. Well,
some of you guys actually were breaking the rules in
the house. Why is that acceptable?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Because we're standing against a position we feel incredibly strongly about,
and that's the Treaty of White Tongy Principles Bill.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So is that your Marker, If you feel incredibly strongly
about something, you can break any rule the rules.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yep, this particular I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
We will not be breaking the rules and we have
not done that over a number of the other but
this issue, this issue bought fifty thousand people peaceilly out
the front of Parliament. He said, that's how strongly people
feel about it.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
The problem with Shane Jones and Jerry Browne and all
of the standing orders thing is is I mean, can
they actually for a party Mariy that don't mind having
their pay suspended or they love attention. So what can
standing orders do if they wanted to do something that
would actually be effective.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Look, I don't know that is a very good question,
because I agree with you. I don't think that the
moment they care about any sentience that will be applied
in our parliament. They just think that they can do
what they like, behave like the way that they want
to intimidate whomever they want. And it just astounds me
and amazes me that you've got a senior member of
the Labor Party on the show with us saying that
we support that and that if you feel passionate about something,
(06:43):
you can break the rules. And if we all applied
that rule in this country, we'd live in chaos.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yes, I think you're coming from Mark like, I just
like to acknowledge that I do see your point. But
the point that I don't think that you're understanding is
this means a lot to a lot of New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
A lot of stuff brings a lot of stuff to
New Zealanders. We don't all take the law into our
own hands and go nuts.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
This This brought over fifty thousand people out the front
of Parliament to peacefully march to say that we want
a treaty of WAITANGI. We've signed it up as two people.
It does mean that it's a partnership. And I want
to bring up my children in a country that has unity,
not division.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And we want to bring up in our children in
a country where law isn't taken into it. There is
respect and dignity, and some morals, and some professionalism and
some adult behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Especially men we're lawmakers. I mean, it's just incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You completely agree, I completely agree, I completely agree. But
why does not Christopher Luxon have the same standard in
terms of the way he's treating the parliamentary process, which
is an absolute shocker. He is absolutely disrespecting our parliamentary
process by putting a built to select committee that he
has no intention of voting for at the second reading.
(07:54):
He's wasting our time, he's wasting taxpayers money, and he's
making an absolute joke of the system about that sort
of behavior. That sort of behavior elicits huckers in the
House and elicits fifty five thousand people coming to the
front steps of.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Harlem's I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I completely refute that that
what your argument quite something is this, if you feel
strongly and passionately about something, you get to break the laws.
And there's lots of people in this country that feel
very passionate and strongly about issues, Jenny, But you, as
a lawmaker, should be saying the laws are important, the
rules are important, we should all adhere to those. But
that's not what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
You're passionate about what you're saying. Mark, I don't know.
I totally you what you're saying. I totally you're saying.
And what I say to that is that Christopher Luxen
is completely right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
But you know, Jenny, you at no point except that
hen Ray, Willie Jackson, the Maori Party, that's all acceptable
as far as you're concerned, given the circumstances in the
specific case.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This issue goes to the core of who we are
as New Zealanders. And I'm proud to stand.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Up and that's fine by you.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
If we are going to talk about rewriting the Treaty
of White.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
We're not rewriting the treaty. See, this is part of
the problem. We are not that you've got. We are
not rewriting the treaty we are defining principles that haven't
been defined by the Parliament of New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
You have forty Kings Council lawyers who are that's.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Not that's not rewriting the treaty.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
By rewriting the principles you are.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
You're not rewriting the principles either, You're defining the principles
by the Parliament.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Of the country. Will disagree on that because it is rewriting.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Michae is right about that. But it comes back to
the port. I think you need to go back and
have a serious talk with christ and say we've got
this terribly wrong. We shouldn't be advocating, we shouldn't be
supporting that. If you feel passionately about passionate about an issue,
you can break the laws, you can intimidate people, you
can threaten people these that that is completely canintuitive to
the message that we.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Should you're what you're supporting. This bill has driven racial
division in New Zealand and that lends at national parties feet.
But what you've done by enabling.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
This stake that up and we.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Want to shut it down. We don't want it to
go to committee, we don't want it to go to
select commits.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Should you're the party that you should be a responsible,
serious political party and take a very firm stand and
support this the Speaker of the House and making sure
that the rules are obeyed, because if they aren't obeyed
there then what does that what does it signal?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Does that send to the rest of the country.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Good discussion. Nice to see you, guys, Mike Mitchell, Jinny Anderson.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
For more from The Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Politics Wednesday. Mark Mitchell' whether's along with Ginny Anderson, Good
morning to you both.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Good morning, Mike, morning.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Jenny, Good morning, Mark, Good morning, Mike, Genny.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I have you got any Rhodes scholars on the Justice
Select Committee there? I'm looking at the list of names.
Who's who's your brightest member?
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Apart from David's a doctor, so he might squeak in, Yeah,
he's been a lecturer.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Duncan web useless cabinet minister according to Audrey Young, but
coming back for a strong finish, well.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I think you're going to need more skills than Rhodes
scholarship to handle some of the issues that'll be throwing
at that committee. It'll be a tough time.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Indeed, who's the weak link there?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I think, Oh goodness, where would I start? I think
it's going to be really hard to cheer it if
things get right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So Mega's in for a tough time. James Meaghan, I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Think he will be in for a tough time.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Great opening, Belle, never been heard from.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Since I've cheered that committee myself, and and I know
from experience through tough bills that it can be hard,
and this will be that. I'd say the hardest.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
One's I reckon, What what's this Jamie Arbuckle like deputy chair.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh, he's pretty quiet. He makes a good morning tea.
I'll say that when it's his turn.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Good on the morning teams. Taku Taku Tar Ferris Tucker's
is good. Yeah, he's I reckon.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
He's going to go on lively character. Well, it will
be interesting to see how it plays out because you
will have people you have Pobson's Pledge, who are pro
the bill. You'll have groups that are anti. So it
will depend on how they come, how they present themselves.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
The whole thing where you said you can't swear, Do
you think that's going to come to pass or do
you think you're dreaming?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
No, I think that will come to pass. That's unparliamentary language.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I was dancing on the floor, but that didn't
stop them.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah. Well, I think also the age wherein now we
have zoom a lot more and so one around the
country instead of coming in. So if someone is it's
a lot easier to handle a submission that gets out
of hand if it's on his zoom.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Call Mark.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Do you feel you strike me? I mean I might,
I know you reasonably well, I guess, but do you
do you strike me as a sort of a person
who doesn't mind a bit of decorum and manners. I mean,
what we're seeing at the moment is not good for
this country, is it.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And that's what we raise our kids, so I mean, yeah,
I know it sounds very simplicit, but my mum raised
me to treat others as how you'd have them treat you,
and I think that we should apply that to the House.
It doesn't mean that you can't be robust to bake,
but there should be decorum and people should treat each
other with respect. I don't like when it becomes personally.
I don't think there's any need for that. I think
(02:30):
in terms of the Select Committee, Jones Megan will do
an outstanding job of cheering that that's a good committee.
Having been a Select Committee cheer myself. He will enforce
and make sure that there is a standard behavior that
is expected, and if that is not meant, then he
will just quite something. He asked to submit us to
leave the committee and.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
That's the end of that. You guys, Ginny, I know
you don't speak on behalf of the whole party, but
to my PI Clark in terms of suspension and voting
for you guys sided with her? Why and do you
run a very real risk of being tainted and associated
permanently with a bunch of radicals.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
We stand against what David Seymour's bill proposes to do,
and we stand against the racial division that it causes
in New Zealand, and we would like the Prime Minister
to show some leadership and shut that down. Imagine this,
Imagine if a luxeen got up one day and said, actually,
this is causing New Zealand hurt, this is dividing us. David,
(03:26):
we don't want this bill to proceed through six months
at Select committee. Do you really think that David Seymour
is going to say I'm going to be a deputy
prime minister in about you know, four or five months,
but I'll give all that up and split the government.
I mean, he's not going to walk away. So I
think this demands that Luckson shows some leadership in a
situation that's causing our country a lot of pots.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, so no, that's your stance and I take that accepted.
But in might be Clark's case, you didn't vote to censure.
Why not?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
We stand with the view that the way this bill
has proceeded, we do not like it.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So we believe separate rules.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You're supported disorder in the House.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
What we are supporting is that the way the House
is run is unacceptable and the ongoing issues that have
been undermining the Maori, not just the Maori Party, but
the Marti people. I listened to Christopher Luxen on the
radio this morning and he said, well that we you know,
he doesn't like the bill even though it's proceeding to
(04:26):
six months at Select Committee, but he'll continue with doing
things such as they've disestablished the Maori Health Authority, They've
done a whole range of other things like removing Maori
language from government departments. He'll continue with doing. He thinks
that's a far more effective way of addressing the issue of.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It doesn't answer the question why he didn't sense since
you might be.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Clark, because we believe that what they're doing is wrong
and we want to tend to gain.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So it doesn't matter what the Maori Party do in
the Parliament. Break all the rules, no problem, that's good
with you.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I did not say that. I said in that particular
instance that you raised when we had a bill going
through this House that Luxon has the power to stop,
but it's not going to take that.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We believe what you are saying, though you're saying that
chaotic or disrespectful behavior in the House of Representatives is acceptable.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I did not say that. I think you're putting words
to my mouth. Mark, would you like me to answer?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
You answered it from the we don't like the policy.
I get that, everyone gets that, but you're not the one. Well,
some of you guys actually were breaking the rules in
the house. Why is that acceptable?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Because we're standing against a position we feel incredibly strongly about,
and that's the Treaty of White Tongy Principles Bill.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So is that your Marker, If you feel incredibly strongly
about something, you can break any rule the rules.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yep, this particular I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
We will not be breaking the rules and we have
not done that over a number of the other but
this issue, this issue bought fifty thousand people peaceilly out
the front of Parliament. He said, that's how strongly people
feel about it.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
The problem with Shane Jones and Jerry Browne and all
of the standing orders thing is is I mean, can
they actually for a party Mariy that don't mind having
their pay suspended or they love attention. So what can
standing orders do if they wanted to do something that
would actually be effective.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Look, I don't know that is a very good question,
because I agree with you. I don't think that the
moment they care about any sentience that will be applied
in our parliament. They just think that they can do
what they like, behave like the way that they want
to intimidate whomever they want. And it just astounds me
and amazes me that you've got a senior member of
the Labor Party on the show with us saying that
we support that and that if you feel passionate about something,
(06:43):
you can break the rules. And if we all applied
that rule in this country, we'd live in chaos.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yes, I think you're coming from Mark like, I just
like to acknowledge that I do see your point. But
the point that I don't think that you're understanding is
this means a lot to a lot of New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
A lot of stuff brings a lot of stuff to
New Zealanders. We don't all take the law into our
own hands and go nuts.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
This This brought over fifty thousand people out the front
of Parliament to peacefully march to say that we want
a treaty of WAITANGI. We've signed it up as two people.
It does mean that it's a partnership. And I want
to bring up my children in a country that has unity,
not division.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And we want to bring up in our children in
a country where law isn't taken into it. There is
respect and dignity, and some morals, and some professionalism and
some adult behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Especially men we're lawmakers. I mean, it's just incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You completely agree, I completely agree, I completely agree. But
why does not Christopher Luxon have the same standard in
terms of the way he's treating the parliamentary process, which
is an absolute shocker. He is absolutely disrespecting our parliamentary
process by putting a built to select committee that he
has no intention of voting for at the second reading.
(07:54):
He's wasting our time, he's wasting taxpayers money, and he's
making an absolute joke of the system about that sort
of behavior. That sort of behavior elicits huckers in the
House and elicits fifty five thousand people coming to the
front steps of.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Harlem's I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I completely refute that that
what your argument quite something is this, if you feel
strongly and passionately about something, you get to break the laws.
And there's lots of people in this country that feel
very passionate and strongly about issues, Jenny, But you, as
a lawmaker, should be saying the laws are important, the
rules are important, we should all adhere to those. But
that's not what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
You're passionate about what you're saying. Mark, I don't know.
I totally you what you're saying. I totally you're saying.
And what I say to that is that Christopher Luxen
is completely right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
But you know, Jenny, you at no point except that
hen Ray, Willie Jackson, the Maori Party, that's all acceptable
as far as you're concerned, given the circumstances in the
specific case.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This issue goes to the core of who we are
as New Zealanders. And I'm proud to stand.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Up and that's fine by you.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
If we are going to talk about rewriting the Treaty
of White.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
We're not rewriting the treaty. See, this is part of
the problem. We are not that you've got. We are
not rewriting the treaty we are defining principles that haven't
been defined by the Parliament of New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
You have forty Kings Council lawyers who are that's.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Not that's not rewriting the treaty.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
By rewriting the principles you are.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
You're not rewriting the principles either, You're defining the principles
by the Parliament.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Of the country. Will disagree on that because it is rewriting.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Michae is right about that. But it comes back to
the port. I think you need to go back and
have a serious talk with christ and say we've got
this terribly wrong. We shouldn't be advocating, we shouldn't be
supporting that. If you feel passionately about passionate about an issue,
you can break the laws, you can intimidate people, you
can threaten people these that that is completely canintuitive to
the message that we.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Should you're what you're supporting. This bill has driven racial
division in New Zealand and that lends at national parties feet.
But what you've done by enabling.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
This stake that up and we.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Want to shut it down. We don't want it to
go to committee, we don't want it to go to
select commits.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Should you're the party that you should be a responsible,
serious political party and take a very firm stand and
support this the Speaker of the House and making sure
that the rules are obeyed, because if they aren't obeyed
there then what does that what does it signal?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Does that send to the rest of the country.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Good discussion. Nice to see you, guys, Mike Mitchell, Jinny Anderson.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
For more from The Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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