February 12, 2025 • 29 mins
When you make a mistake, at work do feel ashamed and beat yourself up about it?
It turns out that if we applied self-compassion in those moments, not only would we be kinder to ourselves, we’d also handle our work load better as well.
Professor Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the study of self-compassion. Her early work in the field and multiple best-selling books on the topic have seen her become recognised as one of the most influential scholars in the field of psychology.
In this episode Kristin shares:
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🌿 The difference between self-care and self-compassion and why knowing the difference matters
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🧘♀️ Some tricks you can use to incorporate self-compassion into your life
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💪 How self-compassion can help you handle failure and setbacks
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⏸️ The exact way you can take a “self-compassion break”
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🙅♂️ Strategies you can use to say “no” to things without feeling guilty
Key Quotes:
“As mammals we have the compassion template...we just have to give ourselves permission to use it with ourselves.”
“Not only do we abandon ourselves, we kick ourselves when we are down.”
“A lot of people ask me to do stuff and I often have to say no and that's kind of a fierce self-compassion practice.”
Connect with Kristin via her website, facebook or Instagram.
Take the self compassion quiz o
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Did you know that if you make a mistake and
beat yourself up about it, you're actually just making yourself
even less productive. It turns out that if we applied
self compassion in those moments, not only would we be
kinder to ourselves, but we'd also handle our workload a
whole work better. Professor Kristin Neff is a pioneer in
(00:21):
the study of self compassion and was the first person
to actually operationally define and measure it more than twenty
years ago. Her work on self compassion has led her
to become one of the most recognized and influential scholars
in the field of psychology. Since then, she has gone
on to write several best selling books about self compassion
(00:42):
and is an associate professor at the University of Texas
at Austin. In this episode, we discuss what self compassion
actually is, how you can use it to better handle
mistakes and failure, and how you can more easily say
no to things that will leave you exhausted and tired
about feeling guilty. Welcome to How I Work, a show
(01:09):
about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm
your host, Doctor Amantha imber To, start things off, I
wanted Kristen to help clear up a little bit of terminology.
The terms self care and self compassion get thrown around
a lot, but what's the actual difference between the two
and which one is really going to help us out
(01:30):
in the long term. I would love to start by
talking and understanding the difference between self care and self compassion,
because I feel like a lot of people get confused
with those terms.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Typically, when people are talking about self care, they're talking
about behaviors you engage in to help yourself, like maybe
you know, taking naps or eating well, or visiting with
friends or having some me time, those types of things.
So compassion is, first of all, it's in the context
of suffering in particular, and normally we think of that as,
(02:07):
you know, how do we show up for other people
when they're struggling. In the case of self compassion, it's
how do we show up for ourselves when we're struggling,
And so practicing self care might be one way we
help that. Maybe we're stressed and over worked and we
need to, you know, have some me time or take
a bubble bath, whatever. This there's nothing wrong with that,
but sentiences you may not have time to practice self care.
(02:29):
You know, if you're in the middle of a busy
meeting and you know your boss has said something you
can't like, say I'm sorry, I'm going to go take
a bubble bath now, you know. So compassion is how
do you show up for yourself and those tough moments
in life. And so it refers a little bit more
to emotional self care being aware that we're struggling. So
the three elements mindfulness, being aware that we're struggling, kindness,
(02:53):
warm support, encouragement like having your own back like you
would do a good friend. And then a really important
makes it self. Compassion and not self pity is a
sense of our humanity. Like you know, it's not really
even though the word self is there, it's just remembering, Hey,
we are a human being doing the best we can.
We aren't alone. You know, all people struggle. There's something
(03:15):
wrong with us for struggling. This is the shared human condition.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I would love to know you around about some of
the rituals that you have around self compassion. I love
understanding people's morning rituals and evening rituals, other things that
you do on a daily basis to help foster self compassion.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, there are The most common thing I do is
whenever I notice any pain or discomfort coming out best
primarily when I practice self compassion. So again and when
suffering arises the passion, I am calm, I'm with it
in a kind supportive way. So yesterday I was at
a place I was doing this dance group I go
to sometimes, and I have some painful memories come up.
(03:55):
So I actually left to the side and actually sat
there and put my hand on my heart. I was is, okay,
the painful memories are coming up, and this was there
for myself. I was with myself until I felt like
I tended to what I needed that I went back
into the dance. So that happens a lot, right, So
anytime any painful thought or emotion or memory or stressor
(04:17):
comes up, I'll practice self compassion in the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Can you tell me a bit of more about what's
going on for you in the moment, like what you're
doing with your body and what the thoughts are that
are going on in your mind to help you through
that moment.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So the reason I almost ows use self touch as
an aspect of self compassion, as we know scientifically that
it's one of the most reliable ways to give our
self compassion because it works through our nervous system. So
I'm gonna have to get a little technical here, but
normally when we're suffering or something painful happens, we feel threatened. Right,
(04:51):
it's just something's wrong, right, this is a problem, So
we go into fight flight or freeze. We activate the
sympathetic nervous system. We get aroused the problem, which is
often ourselves, so we criticize ourselves, or we flee into
a sense of shame or isolation, or we freeze and
we get stuck. And that's normal. It's natural. It's actually
the most natural response when we notice some problem. We
(05:13):
go into fight flight or freeze. Now, when our friends
are good friends and loved ones, when they have a problem,
we don't feel so personally threatened typically, and so that
way we can use another system, which is the care system.
So the care system is linked to the parasympathetic nervous system.
Tendem to befriend. It's also a natural instinct for others
(05:35):
to be there for others to be kind and supportive,
and that helps them feel calmed down. Also helps us
feel calmed down as well, so what we're doing when
we touch our bodies, and we have research shows for instance,
if someone puts her hand on your shoulder activates para
sympathetic nervous system response. If you put your own hands
on your heart, it activates para sympathetic nervous response, reduces
(05:55):
cortisol linked to fight flight or freeze. If you think
about it a baby, you know that we're born to
interpret touches the signal of care. Well before you understand
what your parents are saying to you, like I'm here
for you, I love you, sweetheart, you don't understand anything
as an infant, you do understand the soothing, warm touch,
and so that's why it kind of is the immediate
(06:15):
kind of bypasses. The brain almost goes straight to helping
your body feel safe and cared for, and then it's
actually easier for the mind to follow. So that's why
it is such a feely but it's scientific touchy feely
because it works as there's you know, real reasons why
it works. So you usually put hands somewhere. And by
the way, if the stress or is your boss, you
(06:36):
don't want to go like that, so you can just
like fold your arms or any sort of touch is
a really good way to ground yourself physiologically in your
own care and support.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And so to describe what you're doing for people and
not watching the video. Sorry, all right, okay, yeah, sorry.
First instinct putting your hands or even laughing of your heart, this.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Is a good one. It doesn't work for everyone. There's
different types of touch that feel soothing and supportive for
different people. So putting both hands over your heart center.
You can also cradle your own face the way you
might cradle the face of a child. You can give
yourself a hug, or you can just kind of fold
your arms in a way that isn't so obvious, but
if you do it with the intention like I'm here
(07:16):
for myself, you know, I'm present, I care about myself.
That that type of feeling tone with the ad gesture
folding your arms, it actually does. Research shows that changes
your physiology. So that's one thing that's kind of step one.
And then I usually add some language. I often add
language kind of just acknowledging the different parts of me
that may be hurting. And I say parts of me,
(07:38):
because sometimes there's a part of me that hurts, some
part of me that does a part of me that's afraid,
another part of me that's angry. So we're kind of
we're complex. So I usually direct it to parts of
myself and kind of really acknowledge again that I'm hurting
in some way. I ask myself, what do I need?
I usually talk to myself, not out loud, usually silently,
(07:59):
like you know, I'm here for you, or I will
protect you, I will stand up for you. It sounds
funny at first, it really does. You get used to it.
You talk to yourself just like you would a really
good friend or loved one or a close colleague in
terms of showing your warmth, support and care and really
commitment having your own back. It's so huge. Think about it.
(08:19):
Most of us we do not have our own back.
We cut ourselves down, We shame ourselves like we kick
ourselves when we're already down. We make things worse, and
the research shows it does make things worth both mentally
and physically. So making that commitment to being there for
yourself in a supportive way, just as like a good
friend or a really good parent would, or a good
mentor good coach, makes all the difference in our feelings
(08:41):
of strength and resilience and ability to cope with the
tough stuff. So I might say that so like, for instance,
I had these bad memories actually because it was something
that happened that I wasn't happy with what happened, and
I said, Kristen, I promise I will try not to
ever let that happen again. I can't say that for sure,
but it's like that commitment meant to you know, I'm
going to really try not to put myself in that
(09:03):
vulnerable position again where I was mistreated and you know,
I'm so sorry this happened and I'm here for you,
and that kind of speaking to myself it just really helped.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Can I ask, is there a person or someone that
you channel in terms of that language, because it sounds
like such kind language and the language that a lot
of us probably wouldn't use when you know, to ourselves
when we're going through a tough time. So I guess
earlier in the days when you started, you know, first
(09:34):
started researching self compassion, who were you thinking about to
access that voice?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I was thinking about myself. Everyone already knows how to
be compassionate to other people. So what I did do
at first, and this can be very helpful. Is I
thought like, oh, what would I say to my son
in this situation? Or you know, it's very easy just
to think about what would I say to someone else
I cared about. We already have the compassion and template,
(10:01):
and by the way, this is also inborn as mammals.
We have the compassion template. We just have to remember,
I think even more important than remember it, give ourselves
permission to use it with ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I would love to know from my reading self compassion
is particularly important when you're facing a setback or when
there's some kind of a failure. And I think about
this particularly because this podcast is largely around work and
we all face failures at work. I would love to
know in your life whether there have been times where
you've had failure or setbacks and how you've used self
(10:36):
compassion or practices around self compassion to help you through that.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Oh yeah, absolutely what it does. And so it hasn't
prevented me from making mistakes. To be honest, I still
make mistakes, but it does mean that when I do
make mistakes, first of all, I don't shame myself for them,
that I don't add to it by saying, yes, you're horrible. Christen,
You're a bad person. I hate you. I just might know.
Ooh that felt feelings of shame arise. Well, it happens
(11:02):
to everyone, you know, everyone makes mistakes and it is
how we learn. You know, what can I learn from this?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
How can I grow from this? And when you do that?
It's really interesting. So this research showing that people respect
self compassionate leaders more. It's also for people in the workplace.
The ability to give yourself compassion means, for instance, this
is a really good one. It increases work performance. Of
course it does. When you make a mistake and you
(11:29):
kick yourself and you shame yourself, and you know, it's
not really going to help you get a pup back
on your feet again. It's just going to make you
distracted and nervous and even more stressed. You look at me, right,
So I've achieved some success and I have had setback.
So of course I have had setbacks, you know, and
worked and people criticizing this, you know it's academy or
(11:49):
very political, people criticizing the scale I wrote and said
I was crap and like almost literally things like that.
You know, I didn't fold. When people criticize my scale
actually teamed up with a kick ass psychometrician who said, no, actually,
once you do it the right way, it shows that
the scale is very good. You know, So I could
I thought back, so to speak, but not from a
(12:10):
place of defensiveness, but from a place that no, I think,
I think the scale is good. I think it works,
and how can I learn? And so I actually asked
around my statistician friends, and I found someone who had
the way to model the structure of the scale in
a way that was actually superior. You know that that's
the way it works.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I would love to know when you're like aware of
yourself talk around self compassion. I They have phrases or
mantras or things that are quite helpful to come back
to you.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
One of the things we teach, you know, I teach
my books and my workshops and lectures is called a
self compassion break. And it's a nice term because you know,
when you're at work, you take a coffee break, or
you take a bathroom break. Whenever you're struggling or stressed,
you can take a self compassion break. It doesn't take long,
could take maybe two or three minutes, and all you
(12:58):
do is you intentionally bring in the three components of self, compassion, mindfulness.
Just likecknows, this is hard. I'm hurting this, I'm scared
or I'm stressed or whatever it is you're feeling, I'm hurt.
Bringing in common humanity, this is part of life. I'm
not alone. You know, it's only human to feel this way.
There's nothing wrong with me for feeling this way. When
we forget this and we think there's something wrong with
(13:20):
us and we feel isolated and alone, it makes it
ten times worse. And it's also not true, you know,
it's the fallacy of the mind. So you bring in
that common humanity, and then you bring in some words
of kindness. I'm especially powerful of combined with the touch.
So maybe put your hands in your heart or full
d arms or whatever it is appropriate, and then just
(13:40):
say some encouraging words. So for me, you know, people
are different. I think based on my history, a really
good phrase for me is I will not abandon you.
It's kind of like that part of myself, that caring,
loving part of myself that often that many people they
abandon that part of themselves. It's like, no, I'm just
I don't deserve kindness or I don't deserve support or
(14:01):
you know, I'm just going to shame myself, like we're
abandon it in ourselves in that moment. Not only do
we abandon ourselves, we kick ourselves when we're down. So
you know I will not abandon you. I'm here for you.
How can I help? What do you need? Care about you?
All those things that you just might naturally say to
you a friend or a close coworker or something like that,
it's really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love the idea of a self compassion break, and
it's just so practical. I think, when you're at work
and you're having just one of those days, at one
of those moments, would you be able to talk us
through a self compassion break? Almost narrated, I can be
one and happy to I would love you to lead
one for us. And when I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Ask you, Amantha, I get to ask you to do
it in real time, and then I'm going to ask
you about how it went for you. Okay, you don't
have to share what you're having ade me toward, but
just the process excellent, all right. So we might want
to close your eyes. You don't have to close your
eyes in real life, but it helps, especially in this
context to go inward. Okay, And so I'd invite you
(14:59):
to think about something in your life that's troubling you
or causing you stress. Perhaps it is something that works
some stress or you're experiencing, or maybe you've made some
mistake or feel like a failure at something. It also
might be in your personal life, a relationship issue, or
(15:20):
even be a health issue. I would invite people listening
to this not to think of anything that's too stressful
or overwhelming, because if you're overwhelmed, you are even going
to be able to learn the practice. So choose something
that's mild to moderately distressing. Call the situation to mind,
what's happening, what's going on. See if you can feel
(15:44):
the discomfort of what's happening in your body. Notice usually
those feelings of contraction or unease. Well, bring in mindfulness,
just to become aware of and be present with the
fact that it's hard to be feeling this or it's
(16:09):
hard to be in this situation. I'm hurting. We don't
want to ignore it. The other hand, we don't want
to lose ourselves with it. We just want to see it,
be with it as it is. This is hard and
also to remember that things like this they're part of
being human. There are probably literally millions of people experiencing
(16:33):
something similar, you know, some some worse, maybe not as bad,
but that the point is mainly that you are a
human being. This is part of the shared human experience.
You are not alone. There's nothing wrong with you or
whatever it is you're worried about or thinking about. And
(16:56):
this is part for the course, it's part of being
a human being. We make mistakes, we struggle, stuff happens.
We aren't perfect. No one's perfect. No one's life is perfect.
Know it about you too. Go ahead and put maybe
both hands on your heart, or fold your arms, or
(17:17):
maybe cradle your face, use some sort of physical gesture.
It really brings some physical warmth and support to yourself.
Express our kindness through touch and also any words of support,
kindness and encouragement that are exactly what you need to
(17:40):
hear right now, whatever your situation is. You know, perhaps
it's something like you're doing the best you can or
you've got this, I'm here for you, I won't abandon you.
What do you need? And in fact, you might imagine
(18:03):
what you would say to a friend who was in
the exact same situation you were, Maybe easier to think
of the appropriate thing to say if you think of
what if you had a good friend it was in
the exact same situation you were. Would you say to
be supportive and kind and helpful, encouraging, maybe just validating,
(18:29):
and then see if you can say something similar to
yourself okay, and then you can open your eyes. So
I did a slightly longer one to show the steps,
but you can do it really quick. So what was
(18:51):
that like for you? Amantha?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Ah? I feel very calm and relaxed now, that's for sure.
And I think some of the phrase is that you
said they just they hit me, and it's like, oh, yeah,
that's so true. You know, I'm not alone. And then
there are yeah, a couple of other ones that I
can't remember now, but it was, yeah, like the words
(19:15):
really resonated, and it was interesting when I moved to
put my hands on my heart that it just had
such ad to really calming and warming effect as opposed
to when I started the exercise in my hands were
just by my side on the chair, So even that physicality,
(19:35):
it made the experience feel very different.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, you could put on your hands first, if you
wann't as well. I kind of do it to emphasize
the warmth of the physical touch, but you can do
it at any point because it's largely working through your physiology,
your activating and your comparisympathetic over system, the tandem affriend system,
and that's parbatly why you feel calmer.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Thank you for taking us through that, and I think
for listeners, make a note of wherever that it was
in the episode so you can come back to it.
I know I will definitely be coming back to it.
We will be back with Kristen soon. When we return,
we'll be revealing strategies you can use to say no
to offers and interactions that might leave you feeling drained
(20:16):
or exhausted. We'll also get answers on how you can
use self compassion when you're out and about and not
just when you're quietly sitting at home without distractions. If
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
(20:39):
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. I'm wondering like about self compassion exercises
or practices that we can do when we're out and
about and moving, Like, what does that look like? Because
that was one that I guess was you know, involved
(21:00):
stillness simply you know the way we did it then,
but what does it look like at the other end, right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So there's a lot of different practices you could do
so when you're interacting with others. So, for instance, we
trained a bunch of doctors and nurses at the local
children's hospital here and they didn't have time to take
a self compassion break. There were on the ward they
were seeing sick kids of their parents. So we actually
taught them a practice where you'd say breathing and they
(21:26):
imagine as they are breathing out that they are breathing
out compassion for the parents and the kids they were seeing.
But then when they breathe in, they were breathing in
compassion for themselves. So they actually did that practice on
the wards they're going from room to room. You know,
you have to breathe in and out or shall die,
so you could you know, you also have to give
yourself compassion as well as others, or else you will
(21:48):
get drained and depleted and burned out. So that's something
you can do. You can focus on the breath anytime,
you can just say something kind of kind of supportive
to yourself, like you got this, or you're doing the
best you can, or you know, just just so you
know it's okay, I'm here for you. Any little thing
like that. You can kind of whisper in your own
ears as you're walking. There's also some things you can
(22:11):
do that are slightly different, but this is actually more
of a self care practice. But again, self care is
an act of self compassion, and that when we practice
self care, it helps leviat our suffering. So just noticing
beauty when you actually when you're when you're out walking,
just instead of just focusing on problem solving or not
(22:32):
even ignoring your surroundings. This is really great to do
if you're outdoors, maybe walking to your car or walking outside,
but even inside, just taking a few moments to kind
of nourish yourself by noticing whatever's beautiful or pleasant, a
practice called savoring. Again, there's a lot of research that
shows that savoring also gratitude, be grateful what's good, as
(22:53):
well as you know, noticing what's broken. That's a way
of replenishing and nourishing ourself as well, and that can
be done on the go when you're active in your life.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Which practices do you find yourself coming back to again
and again? Because I'm curious, is it personal preference in
terms of which of the many self compassion strategies that
you talk about in research that we use, or some
more powerful than others?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I know it's really the most powerful ones are the
ones that work for you personally. There's really no right
or wrong way to do it. So if you go
to my website, I have a ton of different practices,
or in the Mindful Self Compassion Workbook which I wrote
with college Chris Germro, you've got like thirty eight different practices.
So really the best practice is the one that feels
(23:37):
right for you in the moment, and also the one
that you enjoy doing. If it feels like work or
really makes very stressful, you know you'ren't going to do it.
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And how about for you? What are the ones the
practices that you find yourself coming back to again and again.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It's interesting another kind of angle I've been working on.
I actually wrote a book a couple of years ago
based out of my own personal experience. Often at work,
it's called fear self compassion. So fear self compassion I
like to call it mama bear self compassion. It's a
fierce protective energy. Sometimes it comes out as anger or
(24:12):
just like real bravery or courage. And so because I
had some work situations going on and I was being
treated well, I felt at least unfairly at work, I
was having these fierce reactions, and I realized that by
harnessing that fierceness and channeling it. So when it's aimed
at people, make anger or fierceness is actually not helpful.
(24:34):
And also it doesn't go along with my values. But
when you can aim at not at people, but it
just like at events, kind of clarity this is not okay,
this unfair treatment is not okay, or this isn'tjust and
there was some gender stuff going on, then it can
be very helpful. So the fear self compassion practice might
be something like realizing that I need to standing up
(24:56):
for myself, speaking up and again, as long as it
does to humanize anyone or it's not personal, but speaking
your truth, protecting yourself. Drawing boundaries say no, right, So
For instance, a lot of people ask me to do
stuff and I often have to say no, And so
that's kind of a fierce self compassion practice that I
(25:17):
use a lot, especially in my work life. And then
if I forget and I do make it personal, I
use tender self compassion to forgive myself and I ask
for forgiveness. It happens. Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
It's interesting that you saying NAR is an active self compassion.
I love that absolutely. What strategies do you use to
say NAR?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You know again, I try to usually express the gratitude
for someone being interested enough to ask me to do something.
I might even say something like, you know I need
to take care of myself. I say no. I wish
I could help you, but you know I can't. And
so I feel like when I do that, I don't
know other people take it, but I'm kind of modeling
that you have permission to do the same. Everyone has
(26:01):
permission to take care of themselves by saying no, and
in fact, it is a kindness.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I had a question around making progress around self compassion
because I feel like I need work in this area,
which is one of the reasons why I reached out
to you to have you on the show, and one
of the things I did in preparation for the interview
is I did the self compassion quiz that's on your website,
which I will link to in the show notes. And
(26:27):
I am a little bit below average, I mean the
average range, though, But is this something that with practicing
the practices that we've talked about, will I see progress?
Will I see improvement in how self compassionate? I am?
If I did that test, say in a month's time.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yes, absolutely, we have a lot of longitudein or researcher
track people using the scale over time, and people do improve.
I mean, this is a great thing. It is a
learnable skill. I mean some people based on how they
were raised tend to have a little more self compare
than others. Or it can also be based on genetics
or on culture. There's a lot of reasons why we
(27:05):
lack self compassion is natural, but anyone, even people who
come from really abusive homes, especially like with therapy. One
of the things therapy does. We know it does matter
what style of therapy. Good therapy teaches self compassion. That's
part of what it is. Anyone can learn the skill,
and again sometimes it does help to have a therapist
(27:26):
or someone to kind of hold your hands, so to speak.
And also I should just mention briefly, sometimes as we're
talking about people maybe with early family trauma, sometimes we
open our hearts to ourselves. We open our hearts and
like all the pain we've been holding inside of us
comes rushing out, and so we want it. Sometimes we
need to practice self compassion slowly. We need to ty
(27:48):
trate the amount of pain we touch, because if you
think about self compassion, what it's referring to is the
ability to be with pain in a supportive way. But
if we have a lot of pain, or the pain
comes too quickly, and that's actually not compassionate. So sometimes
we just need to go slowly and you know, learn
the skill, maybe get a little help someone to help
us hold it could be really a kind thing to
(28:09):
do for ourself as well.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Oh, Kristin, it has been so great to connect, and
thank you for saying yes and not no to my
request for your time. I am very very grateful and
I've loved this time that we've been able to spend together.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's been my pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I hope you love this chat with Kristin as much
as I did. I thought her example of a self
compassion break was really interesting, and I know I'll be
listening back to that section at some point to help
me take my own self compassion breaks. You can find
links to Kristen's website in the show notes, as well
as links to her self Compassion Quiz and her self
(28:48):
Compassion Community. If you like today's show, make sure you
hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when
new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the
traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Colon
Nation
Did you know that if you make a mistake and
beat yourself up about it, you're actually just making yourself
even less productive. It turns out that if we applied
self compassion in those moments, not only would we be
kinder to ourselves, but we'd also handle our workload a
whole work better. Professor Kristin Neff is a pioneer in
(00:21):
the study of self compassion and was the first person
to actually operationally define and measure it more than twenty
years ago. Her work on self compassion has led her
to become one of the most recognized and influential scholars
in the field of psychology. Since then, she has gone
on to write several best selling books about self compassion
(00:42):
and is an associate professor at the University of Texas
at Austin. In this episode, we discuss what self compassion
actually is, how you can use it to better handle
mistakes and failure, and how you can more easily say
no to things that will leave you exhausted and tired
about feeling guilty. Welcome to How I Work, a show
(01:09):
about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm
your host, Doctor Amantha imber To, start things off, I
wanted Kristen to help clear up a little bit of terminology.
The terms self care and self compassion get thrown around
a lot, but what's the actual difference between the two
and which one is really going to help us out
(01:30):
in the long term. I would love to start by
talking and understanding the difference between self care and self compassion,
because I feel like a lot of people get confused
with those terms.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Typically, when people are talking about self care, they're talking
about behaviors you engage in to help yourself, like maybe
you know, taking naps or eating well, or visiting with
friends or having some me time, those types of things.
So compassion is, first of all, it's in the context
of suffering in particular, and normally we think of that as,
(02:07):
you know, how do we show up for other people
when they're struggling. In the case of self compassion, it's
how do we show up for ourselves when we're struggling,
And so practicing self care might be one way we
help that. Maybe we're stressed and over worked and we
need to, you know, have some me time or take
a bubble bath, whatever. This there's nothing wrong with that,
but sentiences you may not have time to practice self care.
(02:29):
You know, if you're in the middle of a busy
meeting and you know your boss has said something you
can't like, say I'm sorry, I'm going to go take
a bubble bath now, you know. So compassion is how
do you show up for yourself and those tough moments
in life. And so it refers a little bit more
to emotional self care being aware that we're struggling. So
the three elements mindfulness, being aware that we're struggling, kindness,
(02:53):
warm support, encouragement like having your own back like you
would do a good friend. And then a really important
makes it self. Compassion and not self pity is a
sense of our humanity. Like you know, it's not really
even though the word self is there, it's just remembering, Hey,
we are a human being doing the best we can.
We aren't alone. You know, all people struggle. There's something
(03:15):
wrong with us for struggling. This is the shared human condition.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I would love to know you around about some of
the rituals that you have around self compassion. I love
understanding people's morning rituals and evening rituals, other things that
you do on a daily basis to help foster self compassion.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, there are The most common thing I do is
whenever I notice any pain or discomfort coming out best
primarily when I practice self compassion. So again and when
suffering arises the passion, I am calm, I'm with it
in a kind supportive way. So yesterday I was at
a place I was doing this dance group I go
to sometimes, and I have some painful memories come up.
(03:55):
So I actually left to the side and actually sat
there and put my hand on my heart. I was is, okay,
the painful memories are coming up, and this was there
for myself. I was with myself until I felt like
I tended to what I needed that I went back
into the dance. So that happens a lot, right, So
anytime any painful thought or emotion or memory or stressor
(04:17):
comes up, I'll practice self compassion in the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Can you tell me a bit of more about what's
going on for you in the moment, like what you're
doing with your body and what the thoughts are that
are going on in your mind to help you through
that moment.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So the reason I almost ows use self touch as
an aspect of self compassion, as we know scientifically that
it's one of the most reliable ways to give our
self compassion because it works through our nervous system. So
I'm gonna have to get a little technical here, but
normally when we're suffering or something painful happens, we feel threatened. Right,
(04:51):
it's just something's wrong, right, this is a problem, So
we go into fight flight or freeze. We activate the
sympathetic nervous system. We get aroused the problem, which is
often ourselves, so we criticize ourselves, or we flee into
a sense of shame or isolation, or we freeze and
we get stuck. And that's normal. It's natural. It's actually
the most natural response when we notice some problem. We
(05:13):
go into fight flight or freeze. Now, when our friends
are good friends and loved ones, when they have a problem,
we don't feel so personally threatened typically, and so that
way we can use another system, which is the care system.
So the care system is linked to the parasympathetic nervous system.
Tendem to befriend. It's also a natural instinct for others
(05:35):
to be there for others to be kind and supportive,
and that helps them feel calmed down. Also helps us
feel calmed down as well, so what we're doing when
we touch our bodies, and we have research shows for instance,
if someone puts her hand on your shoulder activates para
sympathetic nervous system response. If you put your own hands
on your heart, it activates para sympathetic nervous response, reduces
(05:55):
cortisol linked to fight flight or freeze. If you think
about it a baby, you know that we're born to
interpret touches the signal of care. Well before you understand
what your parents are saying to you, like I'm here
for you, I love you, sweetheart, you don't understand anything
as an infant, you do understand the soothing, warm touch,
and so that's why it kind of is the immediate
(06:15):
kind of bypasses. The brain almost goes straight to helping
your body feel safe and cared for, and then it's
actually easier for the mind to follow. So that's why
it is such a feely but it's scientific touchy feely
because it works as there's you know, real reasons why
it works. So you usually put hands somewhere. And by
the way, if the stress or is your boss, you
(06:36):
don't want to go like that, so you can just
like fold your arms or any sort of touch is
a really good way to ground yourself physiologically in your
own care and support.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And so to describe what you're doing for people and
not watching the video. Sorry, all right, okay, yeah, sorry.
First instinct putting your hands or even laughing of your heart, this.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Is a good one. It doesn't work for everyone. There's
different types of touch that feel soothing and supportive for
different people. So putting both hands over your heart center.
You can also cradle your own face the way you
might cradle the face of a child. You can give
yourself a hug, or you can just kind of fold
your arms in a way that isn't so obvious, but
if you do it with the intention like I'm here
(07:16):
for myself, you know, I'm present, I care about myself.
That that type of feeling tone with the ad gesture
folding your arms, it actually does. Research shows that changes
your physiology. So that's one thing that's kind of step one.
And then I usually add some language. I often add
language kind of just acknowledging the different parts of me
that may be hurting. And I say parts of me,
(07:38):
because sometimes there's a part of me that hurts, some
part of me that does a part of me that's afraid,
another part of me that's angry. So we're kind of
we're complex. So I usually direct it to parts of
myself and kind of really acknowledge again that I'm hurting
in some way. I ask myself, what do I need?
I usually talk to myself, not out loud, usually silently,
(07:59):
like you know, I'm here for you, or I will
protect you, I will stand up for you. It sounds
funny at first, it really does. You get used to it.
You talk to yourself just like you would a really
good friend or loved one or a close colleague in
terms of showing your warmth, support and care and really
commitment having your own back. It's so huge. Think about it.
(08:19):
Most of us we do not have our own back.
We cut ourselves down, We shame ourselves like we kick
ourselves when we're already down. We make things worse, and
the research shows it does make things worth both mentally
and physically. So making that commitment to being there for
yourself in a supportive way, just as like a good
friend or a really good parent would, or a good
mentor good coach, makes all the difference in our feelings
(08:41):
of strength and resilience and ability to cope with the
tough stuff. So I might say that so like, for instance,
I had these bad memories actually because it was something
that happened that I wasn't happy with what happened, and
I said, Kristen, I promise I will try not to
ever let that happen again. I can't say that for sure,
but it's like that commitment meant to you know, I'm
going to really try not to put myself in that
(09:03):
vulnerable position again where I was mistreated and you know,
I'm so sorry this happened and I'm here for you,
and that kind of speaking to myself it just really helped.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Can I ask, is there a person or someone that
you channel in terms of that language, because it sounds
like such kind language and the language that a lot
of us probably wouldn't use when you know, to ourselves
when we're going through a tough time. So I guess
earlier in the days when you started, you know, first
(09:34):
started researching self compassion, who were you thinking about to
access that voice?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I was thinking about myself. Everyone already knows how to
be compassionate to other people. So what I did do
at first, and this can be very helpful. Is I
thought like, oh, what would I say to my son
in this situation? Or you know, it's very easy just
to think about what would I say to someone else
I cared about. We already have the compassion and template,
(10:01):
and by the way, this is also inborn as mammals.
We have the compassion template. We just have to remember,
I think even more important than remember it, give ourselves
permission to use it with ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I would love to know from my reading self compassion
is particularly important when you're facing a setback or when
there's some kind of a failure. And I think about
this particularly because this podcast is largely around work and
we all face failures at work. I would love to
know in your life whether there have been times where
you've had failure or setbacks and how you've used self
(10:36):
compassion or practices around self compassion to help you through that.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Oh yeah, absolutely what it does. And so it hasn't
prevented me from making mistakes. To be honest, I still
make mistakes, but it does mean that when I do
make mistakes, first of all, I don't shame myself for them,
that I don't add to it by saying, yes, you're horrible. Christen,
You're a bad person. I hate you. I just might know.
Ooh that felt feelings of shame arise. Well, it happens
(11:02):
to everyone, you know, everyone makes mistakes and it is
how we learn. You know, what can I learn from this?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
How can I grow from this? And when you do that?
It's really interesting. So this research showing that people respect
self compassionate leaders more. It's also for people in the workplace.
The ability to give yourself compassion means, for instance, this
is a really good one. It increases work performance. Of
course it does. When you make a mistake and you
(11:29):
kick yourself and you shame yourself, and you know, it's
not really going to help you get a pup back
on your feet again. It's just going to make you
distracted and nervous and even more stressed. You look at me, right,
So I've achieved some success and I have had setback.
So of course I have had setbacks, you know, and
worked and people criticizing this, you know it's academy or
(11:49):
very political, people criticizing the scale I wrote and said
I was crap and like almost literally things like that.
You know, I didn't fold. When people criticize my scale
actually teamed up with a kick ass psychometrician who said, no, actually,
once you do it the right way, it shows that
the scale is very good. You know, So I could
I thought back, so to speak, but not from a
(12:10):
place of defensiveness, but from a place that no, I think,
I think the scale is good. I think it works,
and how can I learn? And so I actually asked
around my statistician friends, and I found someone who had
the way to model the structure of the scale in
a way that was actually superior. You know that that's
the way it works.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I would love to know when you're like aware of
yourself talk around self compassion. I They have phrases or
mantras or things that are quite helpful to come back
to you.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
One of the things we teach, you know, I teach
my books and my workshops and lectures is called a
self compassion break. And it's a nice term because you know,
when you're at work, you take a coffee break, or
you take a bathroom break. Whenever you're struggling or stressed,
you can take a self compassion break. It doesn't take long,
could take maybe two or three minutes, and all you
(12:58):
do is you intentionally bring in the three components of self, compassion, mindfulness.
Just likecknows, this is hard. I'm hurting this, I'm scared
or I'm stressed or whatever it is you're feeling, I'm hurt.
Bringing in common humanity, this is part of life. I'm
not alone. You know, it's only human to feel this way.
There's nothing wrong with me for feeling this way. When
we forget this and we think there's something wrong with
(13:20):
us and we feel isolated and alone, it makes it
ten times worse. And it's also not true, you know,
it's the fallacy of the mind. So you bring in
that common humanity, and then you bring in some words
of kindness. I'm especially powerful of combined with the touch.
So maybe put your hands in your heart or full
d arms or whatever it is appropriate, and then just
(13:40):
say some encouraging words. So for me, you know, people
are different. I think based on my history, a really
good phrase for me is I will not abandon you.
It's kind of like that part of myself, that caring,
loving part of myself that often that many people they
abandon that part of themselves. It's like, no, I'm just
I don't deserve kindness or I don't deserve support or
(14:01):
you know, I'm just going to shame myself, like we're
abandon it in ourselves in that moment. Not only do
we abandon ourselves, we kick ourselves when we're down. So
you know I will not abandon you. I'm here for you.
How can I help? What do you need? Care about you?
All those things that you just might naturally say to
you a friend or a close coworker or something like that,
it's really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love the idea of a self compassion break, and
it's just so practical. I think, when you're at work
and you're having just one of those days, at one
of those moments, would you be able to talk us
through a self compassion break? Almost narrated, I can be
one and happy to I would love you to lead
one for us. And when I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Ask you, Amantha, I get to ask you to do
it in real time, and then I'm going to ask
you about how it went for you. Okay, you don't
have to share what you're having ade me toward, but
just the process excellent, all right. So we might want
to close your eyes. You don't have to close your
eyes in real life, but it helps, especially in this
context to go inward. Okay, And so I'd invite you
(14:59):
to think about something in your life that's troubling you
or causing you stress. Perhaps it is something that works
some stress or you're experiencing, or maybe you've made some
mistake or feel like a failure at something. It also
might be in your personal life, a relationship issue, or
(15:20):
even be a health issue. I would invite people listening
to this not to think of anything that's too stressful
or overwhelming, because if you're overwhelmed, you are even going
to be able to learn the practice. So choose something
that's mild to moderately distressing. Call the situation to mind,
what's happening, what's going on. See if you can feel
(15:44):
the discomfort of what's happening in your body. Notice usually
those feelings of contraction or unease. Well, bring in mindfulness,
just to become aware of and be present with the
fact that it's hard to be feeling this or it's
(16:09):
hard to be in this situation. I'm hurting. We don't
want to ignore it. The other hand, we don't want
to lose ourselves with it. We just want to see it,
be with it as it is. This is hard and
also to remember that things like this they're part of
being human. There are probably literally millions of people experiencing
(16:33):
something similar, you know, some some worse, maybe not as bad,
but that the point is mainly that you are a
human being. This is part of the shared human experience.
You are not alone. There's nothing wrong with you or
whatever it is you're worried about or thinking about. And
(16:56):
this is part for the course, it's part of being
a human being. We make mistakes, we struggle, stuff happens.
We aren't perfect. No one's perfect. No one's life is perfect.
Know it about you too. Go ahead and put maybe
both hands on your heart, or fold your arms, or
(17:17):
maybe cradle your face, use some sort of physical gesture.
It really brings some physical warmth and support to yourself.
Express our kindness through touch and also any words of support,
kindness and encouragement that are exactly what you need to
(17:40):
hear right now, whatever your situation is. You know, perhaps
it's something like you're doing the best you can or
you've got this, I'm here for you, I won't abandon you.
What do you need? And in fact, you might imagine
(18:03):
what you would say to a friend who was in
the exact same situation you were, Maybe easier to think
of the appropriate thing to say if you think of
what if you had a good friend it was in
the exact same situation you were. Would you say to
be supportive and kind and helpful, encouraging, maybe just validating,
(18:29):
and then see if you can say something similar to
yourself okay, and then you can open your eyes. So
I did a slightly longer one to show the steps,
but you can do it really quick. So what was
(18:51):
that like for you? Amantha?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Ah? I feel very calm and relaxed now, that's for sure.
And I think some of the phrase is that you
said they just they hit me, and it's like, oh, yeah,
that's so true. You know, I'm not alone. And then
there are yeah, a couple of other ones that I
can't remember now, but it was, yeah, like the words
(19:15):
really resonated, and it was interesting when I moved to
put my hands on my heart that it just had
such ad to really calming and warming effect as opposed
to when I started the exercise in my hands were
just by my side on the chair, So even that physicality,
(19:35):
it made the experience feel very different.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, you could put on your hands first, if you
wann't as well. I kind of do it to emphasize
the warmth of the physical touch, but you can do
it at any point because it's largely working through your physiology,
your activating and your comparisympathetic over system, the tandem affriend system,
and that's parbatly why you feel calmer.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Thank you for taking us through that, and I think
for listeners, make a note of wherever that it was
in the episode so you can come back to it.
I know I will definitely be coming back to it.
We will be back with Kristen soon. When we return,
we'll be revealing strategies you can use to say no
to offers and interactions that might leave you feeling drained
(20:16):
or exhausted. We'll also get answers on how you can
use self compassion when you're out and about and not
just when you're quietly sitting at home without distractions. If
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
(20:39):
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. I'm wondering like about self compassion exercises
or practices that we can do when we're out and
about and moving, Like, what does that look like? Because
that was one that I guess was you know, involved
(21:00):
stillness simply you know the way we did it then,
but what does it look like at the other end, right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So there's a lot of different practices you could do
so when you're interacting with others. So, for instance, we
trained a bunch of doctors and nurses at the local
children's hospital here and they didn't have time to take
a self compassion break. There were on the ward they
were seeing sick kids of their parents. So we actually
taught them a practice where you'd say breathing and they
(21:26):
imagine as they are breathing out that they are breathing
out compassion for the parents and the kids they were seeing.
But then when they breathe in, they were breathing in
compassion for themselves. So they actually did that practice on
the wards they're going from room to room. You know,
you have to breathe in and out or shall die,
so you could you know, you also have to give
yourself compassion as well as others, or else you will
(21:48):
get drained and depleted and burned out. So that's something
you can do. You can focus on the breath anytime,
you can just say something kind of kind of supportive
to yourself, like you got this, or you're doing the
best you can, or you know, just just so you
know it's okay, I'm here for you. Any little thing
like that. You can kind of whisper in your own
ears as you're walking. There's also some things you can
(22:11):
do that are slightly different, but this is actually more
of a self care practice. But again, self care is
an act of self compassion, and that when we practice
self care, it helps leviat our suffering. So just noticing
beauty when you actually when you're when you're out walking,
just instead of just focusing on problem solving or not
(22:32):
even ignoring your surroundings. This is really great to do
if you're outdoors, maybe walking to your car or walking outside,
but even inside, just taking a few moments to kind
of nourish yourself by noticing whatever's beautiful or pleasant, a
practice called savoring. Again, there's a lot of research that
shows that savoring also gratitude, be grateful what's good, as
(22:53):
well as you know, noticing what's broken. That's a way
of replenishing and nourishing ourself as well, and that can
be done on the go when you're active in your life.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Which practices do you find yourself coming back to again
and again? Because I'm curious, is it personal preference in
terms of which of the many self compassion strategies that
you talk about in research that we use, or some
more powerful than others?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I know it's really the most powerful ones are the
ones that work for you personally. There's really no right
or wrong way to do it. So if you go
to my website, I have a ton of different practices,
or in the Mindful Self Compassion Workbook which I wrote
with college Chris Germro, you've got like thirty eight different practices.
So really the best practice is the one that feels
(23:37):
right for you in the moment, and also the one
that you enjoy doing. If it feels like work or
really makes very stressful, you know you'ren't going to do it.
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And how about for you? What are the ones the
practices that you find yourself coming back to again and again.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It's interesting another kind of angle I've been working on.
I actually wrote a book a couple of years ago
based out of my own personal experience. Often at work,
it's called fear self compassion. So fear self compassion I
like to call it mama bear self compassion. It's a
fierce protective energy. Sometimes it comes out as anger or
(24:12):
just like real bravery or courage. And so because I
had some work situations going on and I was being
treated well, I felt at least unfairly at work, I
was having these fierce reactions, and I realized that by
harnessing that fierceness and channeling it. So when it's aimed
at people, make anger or fierceness is actually not helpful.
(24:34):
And also it doesn't go along with my values. But
when you can aim at not at people, but it
just like at events, kind of clarity this is not okay,
this unfair treatment is not okay, or this isn'tjust and
there was some gender stuff going on, then it can
be very helpful. So the fear self compassion practice might
be something like realizing that I need to standing up
(24:56):
for myself, speaking up and again, as long as it
does to humanize anyone or it's not personal, but speaking
your truth, protecting yourself. Drawing boundaries say no, right, So
For instance, a lot of people ask me to do
stuff and I often have to say no, And so
that's kind of a fierce self compassion practice that I
(25:17):
use a lot, especially in my work life. And then
if I forget and I do make it personal, I
use tender self compassion to forgive myself and I ask
for forgiveness. It happens. Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
It's interesting that you saying NAR is an active self compassion.
I love that absolutely. What strategies do you use to
say NAR?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You know again, I try to usually express the gratitude
for someone being interested enough to ask me to do something.
I might even say something like, you know I need
to take care of myself. I say no. I wish
I could help you, but you know I can't. And
so I feel like when I do that, I don't
know other people take it, but I'm kind of modeling
that you have permission to do the same. Everyone has
(26:01):
permission to take care of themselves by saying no, and
in fact, it is a kindness.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I had a question around making progress around self compassion
because I feel like I need work in this area,
which is one of the reasons why I reached out
to you to have you on the show, and one
of the things I did in preparation for the interview
is I did the self compassion quiz that's on your website,
which I will link to in the show notes. And
(26:27):
I am a little bit below average, I mean the
average range, though, But is this something that with practicing
the practices that we've talked about, will I see progress?
Will I see improvement in how self compassionate? I am?
If I did that test, say in a month's time.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yes, absolutely, we have a lot of longitudein or researcher
track people using the scale over time, and people do improve.
I mean, this is a great thing. It is a
learnable skill. I mean some people based on how they
were raised tend to have a little more self compare
than others. Or it can also be based on genetics
or on culture. There's a lot of reasons why we
(27:05):
lack self compassion is natural, but anyone, even people who
come from really abusive homes, especially like with therapy. One
of the things therapy does. We know it does matter
what style of therapy. Good therapy teaches self compassion. That's
part of what it is. Anyone can learn the skill,
and again sometimes it does help to have a therapist
(27:26):
or someone to kind of hold your hands, so to speak.
And also I should just mention briefly, sometimes as we're
talking about people maybe with early family trauma, sometimes we
open our hearts to ourselves. We open our hearts and
like all the pain we've been holding inside of us
comes rushing out, and so we want it. Sometimes we
need to practice self compassion slowly. We need to ty
(27:48):
trate the amount of pain we touch, because if you
think about self compassion, what it's referring to is the
ability to be with pain in a supportive way. But
if we have a lot of pain, or the pain
comes too quickly, and that's actually not compassionate. So sometimes
we just need to go slowly and you know, learn
the skill, maybe get a little help someone to help
us hold it could be really a kind thing to
(28:09):
do for ourself as well.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Oh, Kristin, it has been so great to connect, and
thank you for saying yes and not no to my
request for your time. I am very very grateful and
I've loved this time that we've been able to spend together.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's been my pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I hope you love this chat with Kristin as much
as I did. I thought her example of a self
compassion break was really interesting, and I know I'll be
listening back to that section at some point to help
me take my own self compassion breaks. You can find
links to Kristen's website in the show notes, as well
as links to her self Compassion Quiz and her self
(28:48):
Compassion Community. If you like today's show, make sure you
hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when
new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the
traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Colon
Nation
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