December 22, 2024 • 43 mins
The Geelong Revival Centre, one of Australia’s longest-running cults, has been hiding in plain sight for years. Led by Pastor Noel Hollins until his death in 2024, the ultra-conservative church controls every aspect of its followers' lives.
For the past two years, investigative journalist Richard Baker has collected disturbing audio recordings from Hollins and testimonies from survivors. They’ve told him stories of alleged physical and sexual abuse, emotional stories of families being torn apart by strict rules and disturbing allegations of medicine being banned.
Due to legal constraints, he’s been unable to share it… until now. You can listen to Richard's podcast Secrets We Keep: Pray Harder here.
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Guest: Richard Baker
Host: Gemma Bath
Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast was
recorded on growing up in an ultra conservative Pentecostal church
in the suburbs of Geelong. Stacy remembers feeling like royalty.
She was related to the all powerful pastor Nol Hollins,
(00:33):
the man whose word everyone followed as gospel. She got
VIP access to lunch on Sundays and life was good.
She'd been born into the church and she didn't know
any other way. If you were part of the Geelong
Revival Center, you didn't question the Lord, and you certainly
didn't question Pastor Nol no matter how troubling his rules became.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
But those who've got a hunger for the law, that
word will register and the sheep will come. It's not
going to stop the Lord's word at all. And all
the people said.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
For Stacy, everything was fine until it wasn't. At the
age of eighteen, I mean, Stacy says she was raped
by a male friend. The pastor found out and told
her she had to marry him, and that she had
to be excommunicated kicked out of the church for a year.
As punishment for having sex before marriage. She was cut
off from everyone, left completely on her own to deal
(01:28):
with not only what had happened to her, but the
future she was being forced into. For Stacy, that time
in exile was the start of the end. It gave
her time to question the church. Why were they forcing
her to marry someone she'd accused of raping her? Why
was that her fault? Why did she believe the preachings
of this church so holy when the rules and ramifications
(01:50):
hurt so deeply? What if she thought the man on
the platform, her relative, her pastor, was wrong. I'm Jemma
Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea
(02:12):
podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to
the people who know the most about them. Twenty twenty
four has been a big year for the Geelong Revival Center,
an ultra conservative church based in the suburbs of a
Victorian city an hour and a half from Melbourne. In April,
the controversial longtime leader of the church, Pastor Nol Hollins,
(02:32):
died at the age of ninety three. Then in August,
a man named Todd Hubers, who was a senior leader
at the church pled guilty to the persistent sexual abuse
of multiple children. It's understood the crimes took place between
twenty sixteen and twenty twenty three at various locations across
the Geelong region and the victims were boys aged between
(02:54):
six and twelve. Hubers are still awaiting sentencing that will
happen in early twenty twenty five. But this is far
from the only criminal, confronting and deeply troubling revelation that's
emerged from the shadowy depths of the cult like church
church that thousands of Australians have been a part of
over the decades. A place where alcohol, friends outside of church, medicine,
(03:17):
and even team sport are banned. A place where the
pastor is in charge of your dating life, where movie
style kissing is band and church brothers get to choose
the women they marry, whether she wants to or not.
A place where young girls and women are forced to
reveal intricate details of their sex lives, things like positions
and timing, even if those experiences came as the result
(03:40):
of alleged rape. For two years, Richard has been investigating
the Geelong Revival Center, collecting audio from Noel Hollins and
stories from cult survivors. For legal reasons, he's been unable
to share it until now Here's Richard. Richard, tell me
(04:01):
how you came across this story and just how long
you've been working on it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I came across Pray Harder, or the story that I've
called Pray Harder in the middle of twenty twenty two.
I was contacted by a guy who was an ex
member of this extreme Pentecostal church headquartered in Geelong, and
it turned out actually that he and I were at
(04:25):
primary school in a coastal town near to Geelong together
in the mid nineteen eighties. It just felt like, you know,
that was meant to be that I was going to
do this story, and I've been working on it ever
since then. And through this guy Ryan, I was introduced
to a number of other former members of the church
(04:46):
and it kind of just snowballed and spiraled from there.
My first couple of meetings with people, I couldn't believe
some of the things I was being told. And you know,
as much as you want to hear extreme or shocking
things or whatever as part of you as a journalist,
that's going it can't be that bad or you know,
is that a stretch or whatever. Took a few months
(05:06):
and a number of meetings with you know, quite a
few people from that church to realize, no, what I'm
being told is one hundred percent, and then I really
knew I had to commit to it.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So you grew up in the area we're talking about
around Geelong and Victoria. Do you remember hearing about the
church or did you know about the church growing up?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I didn't know per se about this particular one. What
I did know in Geelong is that at that time
there was quite a strong presence of I guess you
would call Pentecostal style churches, where they were quite insular
communities and very popular. I remember some really big churches.
(05:48):
My dad, after my parents separated, got involved with one
of those more popular churches, and I remember going to
a few of the services and the singing and people
speaking in tongues and things like that that you associate
with those things, and yeah, I just thought they were
all one and the same. As a kid, you know,
(06:09):
you wouldn't distinguish, but yees, certainly that style of religion was.
I had a small insight into it as a kid
for a window where my dad was looking for something,
you know, after her mum separated.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I know you've been working on this story since twenty
twenty two. The leader of the church, pastor nol Hollins,
he died in early twenty twenty four while you're in
the midst of this investigation. Was that a turning point?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
He carried a lot of fear with him and everyone
who grew up under him. So PASSERL. Hollins was basically
the founder and leader of this Geelong Revival Center, which
is the main church, but it oversees a network of
about seventeen assemblies across Australia in Queensland, or South Wales, Tasmania,
(07:00):
South Australia and WA. He'd been running it since I
think like nineteen fifty eight, even though people who've been
out ten years or so still could hear his voice,
and if you people listening to the podcast will hear that.
It is a very unique and quite I guess intimidating
voice and certainly the force of his message was kind
(07:21):
of left an imprint on their heads. So yeah, even
when people were speaking about him part of them at
times they would say I feel guilty or I feel
like I'm doing wrong or my soul is in trouble
because of what I'm about to tell you about this place.
He's big on secrets and really big on him having
total control over everyone and everything.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So what's paston Knowle's background? Had he come from a
strictly religious world himself or is it something he came
to later in life.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
He was born into quite a well off family in
Hawthorne in Melbourne, and his father was actually a member
of Parliament in Victoria and served as a minister in
some governments back in the thirties or forties. And they
were raised as sort of strict Methodist church. And it
(08:11):
wasn't until a couple of years after, at the end
of World War Two that the Hollands family got introduced
to this new brand of worship and new brand I
guess of Christianity called the Revival Crusade, and it came
out of America. A couple of its key points were
(08:32):
total acceptance of every word in the Bible is literal
and true, and you have to abide by all those things.
There's no room for kind of interpretation or seeing things
as metaphoric or whatever. It was very literal. And the
other big impression on their family was a concept called
(08:53):
British Israelism, and what that boils down to is a
belief that the people of Great Britain and the United States,
that is, the white people, the descendants of what's called
the ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and they are basically
God's chosen people and kind of above other races and
(09:16):
other religions. And the Hollands family was visited by a
guy called Tom Foster, who was a massive proponent of
British Israelism in the post World War two years. And
what Noel Hollands did was kind of fuse the Revival
beliefs and style of worship and inject that British israel
(09:40):
message into his teachings, and that became the cornerstone of
his doctrine that you want to be a part of
this church, you have to find salvation through speaking in tongues.
So you've got to show that you can receive the
Holy Spirit by speaking tongues, baptism by full immersion in
a water tank, and then believe this British israel message,
(10:01):
which is basically that the Anglo Saxon or Anglo Celtic
people have a special place and a God's chosen people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So it's in other words.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, it is. I mean, if you do a deep
dive into British Israelism. It's been embraced by some KKK
leaders in the States and is still a cornerstone principle
of that muscular nationalists Christian fundamentalist movement in America, which
is quite powerful and has some political power. Yeah, and
(10:36):
of course they'll accept people in the church from other
backgrounds and other races. This church, the one that Noel
Hollins founded and expanded, has branches in Singapore and India
and the Philippines, Colombia, Sierra Leone. So they're not scared
or afraid of mixing with other people. But one thing
(10:57):
he wanted to make clear was that brothers in the church,
that's what they call, the men who were sent out
to kind of establish and run these overseas assemblies, are
not to marry a local girl because they will not
welcome back.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It's mind boggling that these other countries accept that.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, they don't know. I mean, they go there, they
don't go through the normal channels of getting approval from
government or things like that. They just go out. They
set up a thing, and they promise salvation, and so
it's a very seductive message that they have is basically,
come to us, We've got a way that will solve
(11:36):
all your problems in your current life. Because all you've
got to do is pray harder, do what we say,
things will be okay. And then that this life is
only temporary anyway, that the end of the world is
fast approaching. By being part of this church, you will
earn eternal life. So you know that for people who
(11:59):
have got a lot of problems or whatever, this is
a quick fix with a promise of something everlasting, and
all you've got to do is just do what they say.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Doing what they say comes with a lot of rules
under pastor Nol. Can you take us through some of those,
because they were very strict in all facets of life,
in what you were and weren't allowed to do.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, extremely strict. I've never seen anything quite like it.
For example, extremely patriarchal in that Nola is the head
of the church, he has a senior group of elders
under him. Then the man is the head of the household,
and a woman is basically there to support her husband
and have kids and make sure her kids don't step
(12:41):
out of line and only speak when they're spoken to.
People are encouraged to report on each other, so there's
a lot of spying and judgment going on and report
to Pasta. Teenagers aren't allowed to associate with others outside
of schools, so there's no sleepovers or play dates or
you know, doing things with non church people, so it's
(13:02):
very very cloistered. Relationships between you know, teenage boys and
girls for example, are kind of forbidden, and when people
turn eighteen, if they want to pair off in the
pastor's words, that has to be approved by Pasta, and
then they are subject to things like only seeing each
(13:23):
other once or twice a week, limited phone time. There
was one famous rule out there they had no movie
style kissing. And of course, if you happen to grow
up and realize that you're gay, then you've got a
massive problem because that's about the worst thing anyone can
be in that place, and that's going to lead to
(13:43):
your expulsion from the church, and your family are going
to be forced to cut you loose, to have nothing
to do with you. So that's what happens. If someone
decides to leave, their families are instructed to sever all
ties and leave someone without a support network on the outside.
So that's a very grave fear of one being kicked
(14:08):
out because you lose your salvation in church and you've
been told the world's about to end. You think you're
going to go to hell, and two you lose your
family and your friends, you know. So it's really very,
very very controlling. And for women in particular too, they
can't initiate a relationship, so they basically are sitting on
(14:28):
the shelf waiting for a man in the church and
it could be from one of the other churches around
Australia that are affiliated with them to go I like you,
I want to start a relationship with you. And then
basically that's like a factory farm.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It's like an arranged marriage kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
You don't get a choice, no, because you're just brought
up to believe that your role is to hopefully be
chosen to be married. And you know, I've had females,
you know, young women in the podcast say you don't
even care who it is or even you just want
them to be nice and to treat you nice. But
that's the main goal, because that's all your role in
(15:07):
life is is to bear children apport your husband, so.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
You're not allowed to work at all.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There's not a hard and fast rule, but the type
of job you can do is restricted, and if your
husband doesn't want you to work, it won't work. And
also the pastor says where you live you can't choose
to move. And even your holidays are truncated, like if
you go on holidays, you have to go to a
place where there's another affiliated assembly so you can receive
(15:37):
prayer and communion and fasting and for the kids. You know,
there's obviously a lot of problems in this too because
the other thing they encourage is corporal punishment of children.
Although corporal punishment is still legal when it's just a
smack or a lot of people choose not to do
it and think there are better ways. Now what that
did that constant messaging. One thing that they people said
(15:59):
they heard over and over was spare the rod, spoil
the child. Well, that was literal in terms of people
got caned, belted, hit with fists, choked. So they describe
some terrifying encounters growing up as children. And also there
was always a specter or an undercurrent of sexual abuse.
(16:20):
And you know, another scary thing for kids to face, which.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I want to get into in a minute. But focusing
on that more physical abuse of children and how accepted
it was. It wasn't just the man in your household.
So your dad, anyone, any man could discipline children, couldn't they.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yes, if the children were within your orbit and you
felt that they needed correction. So the other name for
that policy was the rod of correction. Yeah, they could
dish out a punishment without any consequence. And women who
were perhaps single mothers or stuff in there would find
themselves having a married brother in the church kind of
(17:01):
appoint himself as to be the overseer of her house,
and that would entail him disciplining her children when he
saw fit.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
This is criminal, isn't it? The physical abuse of children
at this kind of extent.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I would argue that, Yeah, from what I was told
and what the podcast has, there are clear cut examples
of criminal abuse within the place, going back in some
cases decades.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And then there's the allegations of sexual assaultment abuse against children.
You were told, not just like one or two, you
were told numerous stories about this.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Way, Yeah, and that you know, maybe it has something
to do with the extreme rules and the strictness put
on those relationships, on the ability to actually have a
physical relationship with somebody else as you're growing up, and
that's how we learn along the way in the outside
world or the normal world. Maybe that's a factor in
(17:57):
there being this kind of undercurrent of abusive sexual abuse
in there with children because people aren't formed in their relationships,
or they just have opportunity and access. I don't know,
but yeah, yeah, it's certainly a factor in the stories.
Again what I've been told that we put out in
the podcast, and not all of these things were immediately
(18:20):
or ever reported to police. Certainly the pastor, Pastor Noel
made it clear that he was the authority in every matter,
and he was the first port of call rather than
any external or secular authorities when it came to anything
that happened within the church. It was his realm.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So a lot of these people you've spoken to with
these allegations, they say that pastorol knew about the abuse.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yep, they do. Basically was dismissive of it unless there
was an admission from a perpetrator that something had taken place.
But yeah, I mean, I've had people tell me in
the podcast and tell me outside of that that. Basically
his response was that sort of stuff doesn't happen here.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I want to give listeners an example so they know
the kinds of stories we're talking about. Can you tell
us a little bit about Robert and what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, So Robert is one of the oldest sort of people.
I guess in the podcast he'd be in his fifties.
So he was describing his sort of teenage years in
the eighties. At one summer camp. He tells a story
of basically been groomed by a young male in the
(19:33):
church who was probably ten or so years he's senior
in that they'd spend a bit of time together. They'd
go surfing. Then this guy sort of introduced him to
some soft porn mags and then yeah, started doing things
to Robert and encouraging Robert to do things to him,
to say, this is what you do, this will make
(19:54):
you feel nice and stuff, and yeah, Robert told his
parents and they really didn't believe him and found its
way to the pastor and he didn't believe it either.
So this poor kid in Robert is left to feel
abandoned and unsupported that no one believed him. I know
the guy he's referring to. I've heard accounts of Robert
(20:16):
not being the only one to suffer at the hands
of this this man back then. Robert left the church
not that long after, and that meant the rest of
his life. He's been excommunicated by his family. His mother
won't recognize.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Him because of that, because of what happened.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
To him, because he left. Yeah, but the reason he
left was their failure to believe him or accept that
what he was telling them was true. It was just no,
this doesn't happen. You're making it up.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass.
I'm speaking with journalist and podcaster Richard Baker about the
Geelong Revival Center cult. Up next, we talk about Stacy's
story and how she managed to escape the church. Probably
(21:13):
one of the most shocking stories in your podcast involves
a woman you called Stacy, who was actually a relative
of Pastoral, and she claims that she was raped and
that Pastoral knew about it and told her she had
to marry him. That is a huge statement to make.
That's harrowing.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It is it's hard to comprehend. I mean I sat
across from Stacy when I was interviewing her, and when
she got to this part of her story, I honestly
could say physical change come over her. And I don't
even know if you know she was aware of that
or not. But as she recounted her alleged rape and
(21:55):
then the pastor, who was her senior male relative in
her family, his response to it, her bottom lip was trembling,
So you know, it clearly had a visceral effect on
her recounting it to me. So basically, she was eighteen
and again grown up in this extremely strict and controlled
(22:18):
environment where the expectations placed on a young woman were very,
very extreme and constant. You were being watched for your
behavior all the time. Look, she struck up a relationship
with a young guy in the Geelong area, and that
turned out to be an abusive relationship, and you know
(22:38):
the story of their first I guess I'm talking in
inverted commas here, you know, a sexual interaction they got outed.
She actually revealed how that took place, which is an
alleged ray. So she had to go and confront past
her with this, because putting yourself in that situation, if
you're a woman or finding yourself in that situation is
(22:58):
a breach of the rules, and you're a plane. And
she was to be punished, and she knew she was
going to be put out of fellowship. According to their beliefs,
if the world ends while you're out, you go to hell,
and also you separated from your family. Now, the other
thing he said, according to her, was that the only
way we can half make this right is for you
(23:21):
to marry this guy. That was the only way. She's
still going to be punished for a bit, but it
wouldn't be as severe. But that was how to fix
this problem. The guy who claim raped you and took
your virginity and all that away from you is going
to be your husband.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Did she do it? Did she marry him? No?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
That ended her relationship with the church, cause tremendous upheaval
in her family group because her dad had to stick
up for her and cross swords with Noel, who he
was related to. You know, the battle scars from all
that they still wear that to this day. But he
(24:03):
had to stand up for his daughter because she was
going to be forced to marry her abuser.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
This story Stacy's story of being excommunicated or being kicked out.
It felt like a common theme throughout your investigation of
these families being torn apart, often for things like this
that were not their fault. You mentioned before people who
are gay that also warrants you an excommunication from the church.
(24:30):
Is that something that you found over and over again
that families were just being forced to kind of kick
members out.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah. To me, that's the biggest tragedy of a place
like this is the destruction of families generation after generation.
You know, because this has been around for seventy years,
this network of churches. The ripple effects of that. You know,
we've got families that have had suicides and stuff because
of the trauma of being split apart from your children
(25:02):
or your brothers and sisters and ex wives whatever. People
have taken their own lives and then they're made an
example of by the leaders of the church just to say, well,
this is what happens if you leave without looking at
the reasons why something happens, you know, in terms of
the forced separation of family. Yeah, I just found that
(25:22):
the biggest, most kind of I guess emotional response I
had was just hit you over the head when you
hear it time and time again, and you look at it,
and you look at the damage done and equate that
with your own life and how important family is for
most of us. To have that denied just because you've
made a life decision for yourself, you know, I think
(25:44):
that's criminal.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
It's probably also a good time to bring in the
term backslider, because that's different to being excommunicated. Can you
talk us through the difference?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So you can be excommunicated for a while as punishment, right,
But then a lot of people who get that work
very hard to correct themselves so they'll be welcome back in.
Backslider is also shunned, cut off from their family. But
a backslider is someone who leaves by choice, and that's
the word that is given to those people. And they
(26:12):
are the lowest of the low. They are described frequently
as being lower than a dog were returning to its
own vomit, and that backsliders you had to have nothing
to do with them because they know they're going to
bring you on a pathway to hell and cost you
your salvation.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So you could leave, it just cost you your entire world,
your entire life, your family, your friends.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, one guy, Gary, he decided to leave after a lifetime,
you know, half a lifetime. He's in his forties in
the church, he could no longer do it. He tried
to take ease. He wanted his daughters, who were teens
then to come with him. They wouldn't. They've stayed in
His ex wife is remarried in there, and he's not
(26:56):
has seen his daughters now, I think for six years,
and they live eight kilometers away from him, have nothing
to do with him. They've been married off or will
be married off or whatever to someone in the church.
And so it continues.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
One case we can talk about that has been through
the court system is Todd Hubers. Can you touch on
him and who he was within the church. He has
pled guilty to sixteen charges, including the sexual penetration and
touching of boys young boys.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
For his plea hearing, you know, the court was told
in you know, really explicit terms, the depravity of what
he did. So Todd Hubers was a man born into
a church family, raised in this setting, in his really
restrictive environment, talented musician, taught music to a number of
(27:48):
the kids in the church, and he admitted in court
to having a lifelong or a twenty five year addiction
to child pornography. And he started in twenty sixteen to
abuse young boys in the Geelong region, now suggesting that
those victims are from the church there, but certainly young
(28:10):
always from the Geelong region who he came into contact with.
And yeah, he operated this thing called Boys Club. He
built a loft in his garage, a mezzanine sort of loft.
Abuse took place there on trips to swimming pools and
things there. And when we're talking abuse here, I don't
(28:32):
want to downgrade any form of abuse, but the stuff
that he has admitted to doing to boys age between
six and twelve is at the extreme end of offending.
What was interesting was that in January twenty twenty three
Hubers went to see Pastor Noel Hollands and made some
(28:54):
partial admissions to him about what he'd been up to.
Hollands said, well, you better turn yourself into police. And
Hollands himself didn't contact police about what a member of
his church had confest to him about for perhaps a
day day and a half later from hearing that information,
(29:16):
and Huberts took four days to hand himself in and
during the course of that time he admitted to deleting
perhaps terror, bites of child putography from his devices that
police cyber experts have not been able to fully recover
because he was a skilled it professional and as we know,
(29:40):
obviously having it and watching and downloading that material is
a really serious crime. And to have that amount you
just multiply the abusive children that would be contained in
that And that was part of Boys Club too. Some
of the things he did with the boys there was
(30:00):
make them watch that kind of material, you know. The
court heard that it might have perhaps been a couple
of early warning signs back in twenty sixteen that his
addiction was getting worse and his behavior more risky and criminal,
but he was able to explain a couple of things
away and was given the benefit of the doubt by
(30:23):
those closer to him. This emboldened him and enabled him
to go about grooming young boys in the Geelong region,
introducing them to his so called boys Club.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Well, as you said, he came from this world, this
church world, where men ruled over everyone, women and children primarily,
and they were allowed to get away with a lot
of things. Not saying this, but that's the world. He
grew up.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
In your values and your relationships, I think aren't fully
formed in a place where there are such tight controls
and guidelines on everything that you do and who you
can talk to, when you can, how you talk. It
just doesn't create a normal setting for it, and a
warped sense of morality because if you think about it,
(31:09):
when you're growing up in a place where the ultimate
arbiter of right and wrong is your pastor, your sense
of morality and your moral settings aren't the same as
a wider society, because you remember, this is a church
that does not like wider society, and frequently members are
told we're at war with the outside world. Then they
(31:32):
don't understand this.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
After the break, I asked Richard about the church banning
medicine and how that ended up causing severe illness and
even death among its followers. The other area you explore
in detail is the pastor and the church's rejection of medicine.
(31:57):
Can you expand on that a bit, because the ramifications
of a rule like that which you explore are horrible
to say the least.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, the rule of the expectation of putting prayer ahead
of medicine and was definitely right throughout this network of churches.
Some pastors had stricter interpretations or expectations around the use
of medicine. What people described was that Yeah, members were
discouraged from relying on the medical community and science because
(32:31):
this is a place that rejects a lot of science,
to the theory of evolution according to past knowledge, just
garbage and Yeah. People suffering life threatening illnesses like cancer
and different things often denied themselves or were discouraged or
believed that they were not right with God if they
went and sought treatment, because they'd been told that if
(32:53):
they were walking in the spirit and with the Lord,
then they'd be healed. And so families and people who
had serious medical issues either didn't seek treatment, delayed treatment,
had infrequent treatment, and then when they weren't healed, or
the problem didn't go away, or someone died, they made
(33:16):
to feel guilty that this happened. They had a spiritual problem.
There was something not right with them. So the psychological
effect was also profound, let alone just the physical effect
of perhaps not having the best of medical treatment for
whatever was afflicting them. As a story going for a
case going through the courts in Brisbane now involving the
(33:39):
death of an eight year old girl called Elizabeth Strus,
who was into Woomba and her family were part of
a really strict church that practiced many of these same beliefs.
She was diabetic and they denied her insulin in the
belief that prayer would heal. She died weighing twenty two
kilos on a mattress in her house, and her parents
(33:59):
and the other members of the church prayed around her
body for thirty six hours, believing she'd be resurrected. These things,
as unbelievable as they sound to most of us, happening
in Australia, in places like this church, and.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Are happening in twenty twenty four. Still yeah, Do we
go as far as calling this geelong Revival Center and
it's affiliates? Is it a cult?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I think it meets the definitions. If your liberties and
your freedoms are taken away from you, and the belief
that you have to behave and think a certain way
and basically give over all autonomy to one man, that
to me suggests it's a cult. I guess the most
important thing in answering that question, perhaps it's not for
(34:44):
me to say, but what former members say? What do
they think they were in you know, when they look
back on their decades of living this way, most of
them think it meets the definition of a cult or
a cult like group, and there are lots of them
in Australia. It's hard because politicians don't like and for
(35:06):
good reasons, sometimes crossing over and putting barriers on religion freedom.
But to have religious freedom also, I think comes with
responsibility to ensure people aren't harmed, and particularly when you
say people, for me, it's children who have no choice.
An adult can choose to subject themselves to this kind
(35:28):
of life and then yeah, perhaps once they're in, you know,
it changes into something that I didn't think it would be.
But it's too hard to get out. That's one thing.
But for me, the biggest problem and where society and
the authorities perhaps need to do more and keep a
closer eye on places like this, is on the welfare
of the kids, because they don't have a choice if
(35:49):
they're born into that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
We've talked about numerous things that deserve criminal proceedings. They
need to be investigated, and we haven't even touched on
You have found examples of people within the church allegedly
bashing men in Geelong that they knew were gay because
they were gay. And then there's all of the financially
dubious stuff you've uncovered about the church's finances itself and
(36:14):
the fact that they say that their tax exempt, but
you kind of uncovered that that's a bit wishy washy.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, the finances are a real mystery because of one
era I think this shines a bit of a light
on in Australia is the tax exemptions given to what's
called a basic religious charity. So if you and I
we could set up our own religious group and we
could get tax exemption if we set up a charity
(36:40):
and run our books through that. All we need to
say is where a charity and what do we do.
We're advancing the cause of religion and that's all you
need to do to qualify. And what that means is
if you're registered as a basic religious charity, which is
the trust at the center of this church is one
of those, you don't have to submit financial reports, so
members have no clarity on where their money. And remember
(37:04):
everyone as part of this church is expected to give
a tithing and make offerings. And if you're got more money,
the more money you're expected to commit, you can't see
how that's being used. These basic religious charities aren't subject
to the same governance guidelines and rules that other non
religious charities are.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
What's happened since you put your podcast and your investigation
out into the world. Do you think that authorities are
going to start looking more closely at this church?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah? I think so. I think that plus the combination
of how a guy like Todd Hubers was molded or
created in this place, and how the church handled or
how the pastor at the time handled his admissions, and
then you know, the delay in notifying police would be
something of something of interest there and I'm certainly doing
(37:55):
my best to bring it to the attention of relevant authorities.
It's up to individuals, obviously if they want to report
things to police. I know a number of people from
Jeelong but from other places have made some historic abuse
allegations of or sexual that they say they experience when
they were children. There are some other prosecutions going on
(38:18):
in other assemblies connected to this church in Australia that
I'm not going to say where because I don't want
to impact any trials or things coming up there. There's
enough there, I think. In what's out there through the
podcast and these ex members' stories, plus what's happening just
in our court system and other things to say, places
(38:38):
like this need to be put under the microscopes are
more and maybe the relevant authorities that are responsible for
things like child protection or child safety actually go in
and have a look at what do they have in
place here? Do they have working with children's checks on
people who minding children or supervising activities at their camps
(38:59):
and things like that, and also question the leaders around
these policies that allow people other than parents of children
to dish out quite you know, physical and sometimes violent
punishments on other people's kids.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Do we know if anything's changed since pastorol died.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well, there's a new leader of the church who was
a I guess an alcolyte of Personol. I don't think
anything's changed. I think, if anything, they've got more from
what I'm hearing, more repressive, more secretive, building up the
walls around them because they perceive what I've done as
an attack on them. It's not that people can have
(39:40):
the right to worship who and how they like, but
society has a job to do. The media has a
job to do. When that's at the expense of other
people's physical or emotional well being.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Is there life on the other side. A lot of
these now adults that were children that grew up in
this church, have they been able to create better lives
for themselves despital of the trauma and ripping apart of
their families that they've endured.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, and that's the silver lining. Like a lot of
what we've talked about is heavy, you know, and hard
to take content, the good thing is, and the podcast
does have an element of that, there is hope, and
people who have transitioned out of such places found the
outside world's pretty good, and their kids are happy, and
they're living really good lives as productive and involved members
(40:30):
of the wider community, and they're loving it. And the
good thing is for people on the inside of places
like that, is these guys are connected through social media
and different networks. Now that you go out and you
know you did this twenty years ago, you were literally
on your own. Now you've got a group of people
who understand exactly what you're going through, who can relate
(40:52):
to what you're feeling and the challenges you might be facing,
and they're there to help you and guide you through it.
You know, in Geelong, I know, you know there was
one just last Saturday where a group of the ex
members all caught up and had a beer and enjoyed
some time together. And you know they were never allowed
to drink inside the church or anything like that, but
(41:14):
just be normal and enjoy other people's company.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So even the fact we're talking about it, the fact
that you've done this investigation, the fact that there's Facebook groups,
you know for the people still inside, there are options.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
For them, totally. Yeah, I guess you've got living proof
when you see how happy they are. There must be
something right about it, something good about it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Richard, Am I right in saying that this isn't over
for you?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
No, there's a lot more work to do. I mean
since releasing the podcast nearly a month ago, Yeah, I've
had at least another forty five people that I didn't
know when I released it contact me with all sorts
of information. And this is from around Australia and overseas,
and also in some other churches that are not part
(42:00):
of this group but operate in a very similar fashion. Yeah.
I don't know exactly where it's all going to go,
but I'm certainly my lines of inquiry many I'd say,
you know, I'm hoping next year to expand upon this
story and really really drill into a part of Australian
(42:22):
life that most of us don't know about, but that
is happening every day, just quietly out there in the
suburbs and in our regional towns, and that there are
people living in a way that is not healthy for
a large proportion of members, but particularly for young people
in there. That the things are being taught and the
(42:42):
things are being told about the world aren't true bullshit.
It sets them on a path for a life that
no one would really want. I think.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Thanks to Richard for helping us to tell this story.
We'll leave a link to Richard's podcast Secrets We Keep
Pray Harder in the show notes. True Grime Conversations is
a Mum of Meer podcast hosted and produced by me
Jimma Bath and Tarlie Blackman. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week another true Crime Conversation.
You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast was
recorded on growing up in an ultra conservative Pentecostal church
in the suburbs of Geelong. Stacy remembers feeling like royalty.
She was related to the all powerful pastor Nol Hollins,
(00:33):
the man whose word everyone followed as gospel. She got
VIP access to lunch on Sundays and life was good.
She'd been born into the church and she didn't know
any other way. If you were part of the Geelong
Revival Center, you didn't question the Lord, and you certainly
didn't question Pastor Nol no matter how troubling his rules became.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
But those who've got a hunger for the law, that
word will register and the sheep will come. It's not
going to stop the Lord's word at all. And all
the people said.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
For Stacy, everything was fine until it wasn't. At the
age of eighteen, I mean, Stacy says she was raped
by a male friend. The pastor found out and told
her she had to marry him, and that she had
to be excommunicated kicked out of the church for a year.
As punishment for having sex before marriage. She was cut
off from everyone, left completely on her own to deal
(01:28):
with not only what had happened to her, but the
future she was being forced into. For Stacy, that time
in exile was the start of the end. It gave
her time to question the church. Why were they forcing
her to marry someone she'd accused of raping her? Why
was that her fault? Why did she believe the preachings
of this church so holy when the rules and ramifications
(01:50):
hurt so deeply? What if she thought the man on
the platform, her relative, her pastor, was wrong. I'm Jemma
Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea
(02:12):
podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to
the people who know the most about them. Twenty twenty
four has been a big year for the Geelong Revival Center,
an ultra conservative church based in the suburbs of a
Victorian city an hour and a half from Melbourne. In April,
the controversial longtime leader of the church, Pastor Nol Hollins,
(02:32):
died at the age of ninety three. Then in August,
a man named Todd Hubers, who was a senior leader
at the church pled guilty to the persistent sexual abuse
of multiple children. It's understood the crimes took place between
twenty sixteen and twenty twenty three at various locations across
the Geelong region and the victims were boys aged between
(02:54):
six and twelve. Hubers are still awaiting sentencing that will
happen in early twenty twenty five. But this is far
from the only criminal, confronting and deeply troubling revelation that's
emerged from the shadowy depths of the cult like church
church that thousands of Australians have been a part of
over the decades. A place where alcohol, friends outside of church, medicine,
(03:17):
and even team sport are banned. A place where the
pastor is in charge of your dating life, where movie
style kissing is band and church brothers get to choose
the women they marry, whether she wants to or not.
A place where young girls and women are forced to
reveal intricate details of their sex lives, things like positions
and timing, even if those experiences came as the result
(03:40):
of alleged rape. For two years, Richard has been investigating
the Geelong Revival Center, collecting audio from Noel Hollins and
stories from cult survivors. For legal reasons, he's been unable
to share it until now Here's Richard. Richard, tell me
(04:01):
how you came across this story and just how long
you've been working on it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I came across Pray Harder, or the story that I've
called Pray Harder in the middle of twenty twenty two.
I was contacted by a guy who was an ex
member of this extreme Pentecostal church headquartered in Geelong, and
it turned out actually that he and I were at
(04:25):
primary school in a coastal town near to Geelong together
in the mid nineteen eighties. It just felt like, you know,
that was meant to be that I was going to
do this story, and I've been working on it ever
since then. And through this guy Ryan, I was introduced
to a number of other former members of the church
(04:46):
and it kind of just snowballed and spiraled from there.
My first couple of meetings with people, I couldn't believe
some of the things I was being told. And you know,
as much as you want to hear extreme or shocking
things or whatever as part of you as a journalist,
that's going it can't be that bad or you know,
is that a stretch or whatever. Took a few months
(05:06):
and a number of meetings with you know, quite a
few people from that church to realize, no, what I'm
being told is one hundred percent, and then I really
knew I had to commit to it.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So you grew up in the area we're talking about
around Geelong and Victoria. Do you remember hearing about the
church or did you know about the church growing up?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I didn't know per se about this particular one. What
I did know in Geelong is that at that time
there was quite a strong presence of I guess you
would call Pentecostal style churches, where they were quite insular
communities and very popular. I remember some really big churches.
(05:48):
My dad, after my parents separated, got involved with one
of those more popular churches, and I remember going to
a few of the services and the singing and people
speaking in tongues and things like that that you associate
with those things, and yeah, I just thought they were
all one and the same. As a kid, you know,
(06:09):
you wouldn't distinguish, but yees, certainly that style of religion was.
I had a small insight into it as a kid
for a window where my dad was looking for something,
you know, after her mum separated.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I know you've been working on this story since twenty
twenty two. The leader of the church, pastor nol Hollins,
he died in early twenty twenty four while you're in
the midst of this investigation. Was that a turning point?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
He carried a lot of fear with him and everyone
who grew up under him. So PASSERL. Hollins was basically
the founder and leader of this Geelong Revival Center, which
is the main church, but it oversees a network of
about seventeen assemblies across Australia in Queensland, or South Wales, Tasmania,
(07:00):
South Australia and WA. He'd been running it since I
think like nineteen fifty eight, even though people who've been
out ten years or so still could hear his voice,
and if you people listening to the podcast will hear that.
It is a very unique and quite I guess intimidating
voice and certainly the force of his message was kind
(07:21):
of left an imprint on their heads. So yeah, even
when people were speaking about him part of them at
times they would say I feel guilty or I feel
like I'm doing wrong or my soul is in trouble
because of what I'm about to tell you about this place.
He's big on secrets and really big on him having
total control over everyone and everything.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So what's paston Knowle's background? Had he come from a
strictly religious world himself or is it something he came
to later in life.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
He was born into quite a well off family in
Hawthorne in Melbourne, and his father was actually a member
of Parliament in Victoria and served as a minister in
some governments back in the thirties or forties. And they
were raised as sort of strict Methodist church. And it
(08:11):
wasn't until a couple of years after, at the end
of World War Two that the Hollands family got introduced
to this new brand of worship and new brand I
guess of Christianity called the Revival Crusade, and it came
out of America. A couple of its key points were
(08:32):
total acceptance of every word in the Bible is literal
and true, and you have to abide by all those things.
There's no room for kind of interpretation or seeing things
as metaphoric or whatever. It was very literal. And the
other big impression on their family was a concept called
(08:53):
British Israelism, and what that boils down to is a
belief that the people of Great Britain and the United States,
that is, the white people, the descendants of what's called
the ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and they are basically
God's chosen people and kind of above other races and
(09:16):
other religions. And the Hollands family was visited by a
guy called Tom Foster, who was a massive proponent of
British Israelism in the post World War two years. And
what Noel Hollands did was kind of fuse the Revival
beliefs and style of worship and inject that British israel
(09:40):
message into his teachings, and that became the cornerstone of
his doctrine that you want to be a part of
this church, you have to find salvation through speaking in tongues.
So you've got to show that you can receive the
Holy Spirit by speaking tongues, baptism by full immersion in
a water tank, and then believe this British israel message,
(10:01):
which is basically that the Anglo Saxon or Anglo Celtic
people have a special place and a God's chosen people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So it's in other words.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, it is. I mean, if you do a deep
dive into British Israelism. It's been embraced by some KKK
leaders in the States and is still a cornerstone principle
of that muscular nationalists Christian fundamentalist movement in America, which
is quite powerful and has some political power. Yeah, and
(10:36):
of course they'll accept people in the church from other
backgrounds and other races. This church, the one that Noel
Hollins founded and expanded, has branches in Singapore and India
and the Philippines, Colombia, Sierra Leone. So they're not scared
or afraid of mixing with other people. But one thing
(10:57):
he wanted to make clear was that brothers in the church,
that's what they call, the men who were sent out
to kind of establish and run these overseas assemblies, are
not to marry a local girl because they will not
welcome back.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It's mind boggling that these other countries accept that.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, they don't know. I mean, they go there, they
don't go through the normal channels of getting approval from
government or things like that. They just go out. They
set up a thing, and they promise salvation, and so
it's a very seductive message that they have is basically,
come to us, We've got a way that will solve
(11:36):
all your problems in your current life. Because all you've
got to do is pray harder, do what we say,
things will be okay. And then that this life is
only temporary anyway, that the end of the world is
fast approaching. By being part of this church, you will
earn eternal life. So you know that for people who
(11:59):
have got a lot of problems or whatever, this is
a quick fix with a promise of something everlasting, and
all you've got to do is just do what they say.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Doing what they say comes with a lot of rules
under pastor Nol. Can you take us through some of those,
because they were very strict in all facets of life,
in what you were and weren't allowed to do.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, extremely strict. I've never seen anything quite like it.
For example, extremely patriarchal in that Nola is the head
of the church, he has a senior group of elders
under him. Then the man is the head of the household,
and a woman is basically there to support her husband
and have kids and make sure her kids don't step
(12:41):
out of line and only speak when they're spoken to.
People are encouraged to report on each other, so there's
a lot of spying and judgment going on and report
to Pasta. Teenagers aren't allowed to associate with others outside
of schools, so there's no sleepovers or play dates or
you know, doing things with non church people, so it's
(13:02):
very very cloistered. Relationships between you know, teenage boys and
girls for example, are kind of forbidden, and when people
turn eighteen, if they want to pair off in the
pastor's words, that has to be approved by Pasta, and
then they are subject to things like only seeing each
(13:23):
other once or twice a week, limited phone time. There
was one famous rule out there they had no movie
style kissing. And of course, if you happen to grow
up and realize that you're gay, then you've got a
massive problem because that's about the worst thing anyone can
be in that place, and that's going to lead to
(13:43):
your expulsion from the church, and your family are going
to be forced to cut you loose, to have nothing
to do with you. So that's what happens. If someone
decides to leave, their families are instructed to sever all
ties and leave someone without a support network on the outside.
So that's a very grave fear of one being kicked
(14:08):
out because you lose your salvation in church and you've
been told the world's about to end. You think you're
going to go to hell, and two you lose your
family and your friends, you know. So it's really very,
very very controlling. And for women in particular too, they
can't initiate a relationship, so they basically are sitting on
(14:28):
the shelf waiting for a man in the church and
it could be from one of the other churches around
Australia that are affiliated with them to go I like you,
I want to start a relationship with you. And then
basically that's like a factory farm.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It's like an arranged marriage kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
You don't get a choice, no, because you're just brought
up to believe that your role is to hopefully be
chosen to be married. And you know, I've had females,
you know, young women in the podcast say you don't
even care who it is or even you just want
them to be nice and to treat you nice. But
that's the main goal, because that's all your role in
(15:07):
life is is to bear children apport your husband, so.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
You're not allowed to work at all.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There's not a hard and fast rule, but the type
of job you can do is restricted, and if your
husband doesn't want you to work, it won't work. And
also the pastor says where you live you can't choose
to move. And even your holidays are truncated, like if
you go on holidays, you have to go to a
place where there's another affiliated assembly so you can receive
(15:37):
prayer and communion and fasting and for the kids. You know,
there's obviously a lot of problems in this too because
the other thing they encourage is corporal punishment of children.
Although corporal punishment is still legal when it's just a
smack or a lot of people choose not to do
it and think there are better ways. Now what that
did that constant messaging. One thing that they people said
(15:59):
they heard over and over was spare the rod, spoil
the child. Well, that was literal in terms of people
got caned, belted, hit with fists, choked. So they describe
some terrifying encounters growing up as children. And also there
was always a specter or an undercurrent of sexual abuse.
(16:20):
And you know, another scary thing for kids to face, which.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I want to get into in a minute. But focusing
on that more physical abuse of children and how accepted
it was. It wasn't just the man in your household.
So your dad, anyone, any man could discipline children, couldn't they.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yes, if the children were within your orbit and you
felt that they needed correction. So the other name for
that policy was the rod of correction. Yeah, they could
dish out a punishment without any consequence. And women who
were perhaps single mothers or stuff in there would find
themselves having a married brother in the church kind of
(17:01):
appoint himself as to be the overseer of her house,
and that would entail him disciplining her children when he
saw fit.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
This is criminal, isn't it? The physical abuse of children
at this kind of extent.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I would argue that, Yeah, from what I was told
and what the podcast has, there are clear cut examples
of criminal abuse within the place, going back in some
cases decades.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And then there's the allegations of sexual assaultment abuse against children.
You were told, not just like one or two, you
were told numerous stories about this.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Way, Yeah, and that you know, maybe it has something
to do with the extreme rules and the strictness put
on those relationships, on the ability to actually have a
physical relationship with somebody else as you're growing up, and
that's how we learn along the way in the outside
world or the normal world. Maybe that's a factor in
(17:57):
there being this kind of undercurrent of abusive sexual abuse
in there with children because people aren't formed in their relationships,
or they just have opportunity and access. I don't know,
but yeah, yeah, it's certainly a factor in the stories.
Again what I've been told that we put out in
the podcast, and not all of these things were immediately
(18:20):
or ever reported to police. Certainly the pastor, Pastor Noel
made it clear that he was the authority in every matter,
and he was the first port of call rather than
any external or secular authorities when it came to anything
that happened within the church. It was his realm.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So a lot of these people you've spoken to with
these allegations, they say that pastorol knew about the abuse.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yep, they do. Basically was dismissive of it unless there
was an admission from a perpetrator that something had taken place.
But yeah, I mean, I've had people tell me in
the podcast and tell me outside of that that. Basically
his response was that sort of stuff doesn't happen here.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I want to give listeners an example so they know
the kinds of stories we're talking about. Can you tell
us a little bit about Robert and what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, So Robert is one of the oldest sort of people.
I guess in the podcast he'd be in his fifties.
So he was describing his sort of teenage years in
the eighties. At one summer camp. He tells a story
of basically been groomed by a young male in the
(19:33):
church who was probably ten or so years he's senior
in that they'd spend a bit of time together. They'd
go surfing. Then this guy sort of introduced him to
some soft porn mags and then yeah, started doing things
to Robert and encouraging Robert to do things to him,
to say, this is what you do, this will make
(19:54):
you feel nice and stuff, and yeah, Robert told his
parents and they really didn't believe him and found its
way to the pastor and he didn't believe it either.
So this poor kid in Robert is left to feel
abandoned and unsupported that no one believed him. I know
the guy he's referring to. I've heard accounts of Robert
(20:16):
not being the only one to suffer at the hands
of this this man back then. Robert left the church
not that long after, and that meant the rest of
his life. He's been excommunicated by his family. His mother
won't recognize.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Him because of that, because of what happened.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
To him, because he left. Yeah, but the reason he
left was their failure to believe him or accept that
what he was telling them was true. It was just no,
this doesn't happen. You're making it up.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass.
I'm speaking with journalist and podcaster Richard Baker about the
Geelong Revival Center cult. Up next, we talk about Stacy's
story and how she managed to escape the church. Probably
(21:13):
one of the most shocking stories in your podcast involves
a woman you called Stacy, who was actually a relative
of Pastoral, and she claims that she was raped and
that Pastoral knew about it and told her she had
to marry him. That is a huge statement to make.
That's harrowing.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It is it's hard to comprehend. I mean I sat
across from Stacy when I was interviewing her, and when
she got to this part of her story, I honestly
could say physical change come over her. And I don't
even know if you know she was aware of that
or not. But as she recounted her alleged rape and
(21:55):
then the pastor, who was her senior male relative in
her family, his response to it, her bottom lip was trembling,
So you know, it clearly had a visceral effect on
her recounting it to me. So basically, she was eighteen
and again grown up in this extremely strict and controlled
(22:18):
environment where the expectations placed on a young woman were very,
very extreme and constant. You were being watched for your
behavior all the time. Look, she struck up a relationship
with a young guy in the Geelong area, and that
turned out to be an abusive relationship, and you know
(22:38):
the story of their first I guess I'm talking in
inverted commas here, you know, a sexual interaction they got outed.
She actually revealed how that took place, which is an
alleged ray. So she had to go and confront past
her with this, because putting yourself in that situation, if
you're a woman or finding yourself in that situation is
(22:58):
a breach of the rules, and you're a plane. And
she was to be punished, and she knew she was
going to be put out of fellowship. According to their beliefs,
if the world ends while you're out, you go to hell,
and also you separated from your family. Now, the other
thing he said, according to her, was that the only
way we can half make this right is for you
(23:21):
to marry this guy. That was the only way. She's
still going to be punished for a bit, but it
wouldn't be as severe. But that was how to fix
this problem. The guy who claim raped you and took
your virginity and all that away from you is going
to be your husband.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Did she do it? Did she marry him? No?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
That ended her relationship with the church, cause tremendous upheaval
in her family group because her dad had to stick
up for her and cross swords with Noel, who he
was related to. You know, the battle scars from all
that they still wear that to this day. But he
(24:03):
had to stand up for his daughter because she was
going to be forced to marry her abuser.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
This story Stacy's story of being excommunicated or being kicked out.
It felt like a common theme throughout your investigation of
these families being torn apart, often for things like this
that were not their fault. You mentioned before people who
are gay that also warrants you an excommunication from the church.
(24:30):
Is that something that you found over and over again
that families were just being forced to kind of kick
members out.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah. To me, that's the biggest tragedy of a place
like this is the destruction of families generation after generation.
You know, because this has been around for seventy years,
this network of churches. The ripple effects of that. You know,
we've got families that have had suicides and stuff because
of the trauma of being split apart from your children
(25:02):
or your brothers and sisters and ex wives whatever. People
have taken their own lives and then they're made an
example of by the leaders of the church just to say, well,
this is what happens if you leave without looking at
the reasons why something happens, you know, in terms of
the forced separation of family. Yeah, I just found that
(25:22):
the biggest, most kind of I guess emotional response I
had was just hit you over the head when you
hear it time and time again, and you look at it,
and you look at the damage done and equate that
with your own life and how important family is for
most of us. To have that denied just because you've
made a life decision for yourself, you know, I think
(25:44):
that's criminal.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
It's probably also a good time to bring in the
term backslider, because that's different to being excommunicated. Can you
talk us through the difference?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So you can be excommunicated for a while as punishment, right,
But then a lot of people who get that work
very hard to correct themselves so they'll be welcome back in.
Backslider is also shunned, cut off from their family. But
a backslider is someone who leaves by choice, and that's
the word that is given to those people. And they
(26:12):
are the lowest of the low. They are described frequently
as being lower than a dog were returning to its
own vomit, and that backsliders you had to have nothing
to do with them because they know they're going to
bring you on a pathway to hell and cost you
your salvation.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So you could leave, it just cost you your entire world,
your entire life, your family, your friends.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, one guy, Gary, he decided to leave after a lifetime,
you know, half a lifetime. He's in his forties in
the church, he could no longer do it. He tried
to take ease. He wanted his daughters, who were teens
then to come with him. They wouldn't. They've stayed in
His ex wife is remarried in there, and he's not
(26:56):
has seen his daughters now, I think for six years,
and they live eight kilometers away from him, have nothing
to do with him. They've been married off or will
be married off or whatever to someone in the church.
And so it continues.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
One case we can talk about that has been through
the court system is Todd Hubers. Can you touch on
him and who he was within the church. He has
pled guilty to sixteen charges, including the sexual penetration and
touching of boys young boys.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
For his plea hearing, you know, the court was told
in you know, really explicit terms, the depravity of what
he did. So Todd Hubers was a man born into
a church family, raised in this setting, in his really
restrictive environment, talented musician, taught music to a number of
(27:48):
the kids in the church, and he admitted in court
to having a lifelong or a twenty five year addiction
to child pornography. And he started in twenty sixteen to
abuse young boys in the Geelong region, now suggesting that
those victims are from the church there, but certainly young
(28:10):
always from the Geelong region who he came into contact with.
And yeah, he operated this thing called Boys Club. He
built a loft in his garage, a mezzanine sort of loft.
Abuse took place there on trips to swimming pools and
things there. And when we're talking abuse here, I don't
(28:32):
want to downgrade any form of abuse, but the stuff
that he has admitted to doing to boys age between
six and twelve is at the extreme end of offending.
What was interesting was that in January twenty twenty three
Hubers went to see Pastor Noel Hollands and made some
(28:54):
partial admissions to him about what he'd been up to.
Hollands said, well, you better turn yourself into police. And
Hollands himself didn't contact police about what a member of
his church had confest to him about for perhaps a
day day and a half later from hearing that information,
(29:16):
and Huberts took four days to hand himself in and
during the course of that time he admitted to deleting
perhaps terror, bites of child putography from his devices that
police cyber experts have not been able to fully recover
because he was a skilled it professional and as we know,
(29:40):
obviously having it and watching and downloading that material is
a really serious crime. And to have that amount you
just multiply the abusive children that would be contained in
that And that was part of Boys Club too. Some
of the things he did with the boys there was
(30:00):
make them watch that kind of material, you know. The
court heard that it might have perhaps been a couple
of early warning signs back in twenty sixteen that his
addiction was getting worse and his behavior more risky and criminal,
but he was able to explain a couple of things
away and was given the benefit of the doubt by
(30:23):
those closer to him. This emboldened him and enabled him
to go about grooming young boys in the Geelong region,
introducing them to his so called boys Club.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Well, as you said, he came from this world, this
church world, where men ruled over everyone, women and children primarily,
and they were allowed to get away with a lot
of things. Not saying this, but that's the world. He
grew up.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
In your values and your relationships, I think aren't fully
formed in a place where there are such tight controls
and guidelines on everything that you do and who you
can talk to, when you can, how you talk. It
just doesn't create a normal setting for it, and a
warped sense of morality because if you think about it,
(31:09):
when you're growing up in a place where the ultimate
arbiter of right and wrong is your pastor, your sense
of morality and your moral settings aren't the same as
a wider society, because you remember, this is a church
that does not like wider society, and frequently members are
told we're at war with the outside world. Then they
(31:32):
don't understand this.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
After the break, I asked Richard about the church banning
medicine and how that ended up causing severe illness and
even death among its followers. The other area you explore
in detail is the pastor and the church's rejection of medicine.
(31:57):
Can you expand on that a bit, because the ramifications
of a rule like that which you explore are horrible
to say the least.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, the rule of the expectation of putting prayer ahead
of medicine and was definitely right throughout this network of churches.
Some pastors had stricter interpretations or expectations around the use
of medicine. What people described was that Yeah, members were
discouraged from relying on the medical community and science because
(32:31):
this is a place that rejects a lot of science,
to the theory of evolution according to past knowledge, just
garbage and Yeah. People suffering life threatening illnesses like cancer
and different things often denied themselves or were discouraged or
believed that they were not right with God if they
went and sought treatment, because they'd been told that if
(32:53):
they were walking in the spirit and with the Lord,
then they'd be healed. And so families and people who
had serious medical issues either didn't seek treatment, delayed treatment,
had infrequent treatment, and then when they weren't healed, or
the problem didn't go away, or someone died, they made
(33:16):
to feel guilty that this happened. They had a spiritual problem.
There was something not right with them. So the psychological
effect was also profound, let alone just the physical effect
of perhaps not having the best of medical treatment for
whatever was afflicting them. As a story going for a
case going through the courts in Brisbane now involving the
(33:39):
death of an eight year old girl called Elizabeth Strus,
who was into Woomba and her family were part of
a really strict church that practiced many of these same beliefs.
She was diabetic and they denied her insulin in the
belief that prayer would heal. She died weighing twenty two
kilos on a mattress in her house, and her parents
(33:59):
and the other members of the church prayed around her
body for thirty six hours, believing she'd be resurrected. These things,
as unbelievable as they sound to most of us, happening
in Australia, in places like this church, and.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Are happening in twenty twenty four. Still yeah, Do we
go as far as calling this geelong Revival Center and
it's affiliates? Is it a cult?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I think it meets the definitions. If your liberties and
your freedoms are taken away from you, and the belief
that you have to behave and think a certain way
and basically give over all autonomy to one man, that
to me suggests it's a cult. I guess the most
important thing in answering that question, perhaps it's not for
(34:44):
me to say, but what former members say? What do
they think they were in you know, when they look
back on their decades of living this way, most of
them think it meets the definition of a cult or
a cult like group, and there are lots of them
in Australia. It's hard because politicians don't like and for
(35:06):
good reasons, sometimes crossing over and putting barriers on religion freedom.
But to have religious freedom also, I think comes with
responsibility to ensure people aren't harmed, and particularly when you
say people, for me, it's children who have no choice.
An adult can choose to subject themselves to this kind
(35:28):
of life and then yeah, perhaps once they're in, you know,
it changes into something that I didn't think it would be.
But it's too hard to get out. That's one thing.
But for me, the biggest problem and where society and
the authorities perhaps need to do more and keep a
closer eye on places like this, is on the welfare
of the kids, because they don't have a choice if
(35:49):
they're born into that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
We've talked about numerous things that deserve criminal proceedings. They
need to be investigated, and we haven't even touched on
You have found examples of people within the church allegedly
bashing men in Geelong that they knew were gay because
they were gay. And then there's all of the financially
dubious stuff you've uncovered about the church's finances itself and
(36:14):
the fact that they say that their tax exempt, but
you kind of uncovered that that's a bit wishy washy.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, the finances are a real mystery because of one
era I think this shines a bit of a light
on in Australia is the tax exemptions given to what's
called a basic religious charity. So if you and I
we could set up our own religious group and we
could get tax exemption if we set up a charity
(36:40):
and run our books through that. All we need to
say is where a charity and what do we do.
We're advancing the cause of religion and that's all you
need to do to qualify. And what that means is
if you're registered as a basic religious charity, which is
the trust at the center of this church is one
of those, you don't have to submit financial reports, so
members have no clarity on where their money. And remember
(37:04):
everyone as part of this church is expected to give
a tithing and make offerings. And if you're got more money,
the more money you're expected to commit, you can't see
how that's being used. These basic religious charities aren't subject
to the same governance guidelines and rules that other non
religious charities are.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
What's happened since you put your podcast and your investigation
out into the world. Do you think that authorities are
going to start looking more closely at this church?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah? I think so. I think that plus the combination
of how a guy like Todd Hubers was molded or
created in this place, and how the church handled or
how the pastor at the time handled his admissions, and
then you know, the delay in notifying police would be
something of something of interest there and I'm certainly doing
(37:55):
my best to bring it to the attention of relevant authorities.
It's up to individuals, obviously if they want to report
things to police. I know a number of people from
Jeelong but from other places have made some historic abuse
allegations of or sexual that they say they experience when
they were children. There are some other prosecutions going on
(38:18):
in other assemblies connected to this church in Australia that
I'm not going to say where because I don't want
to impact any trials or things coming up there. There's
enough there, I think. In what's out there through the
podcast and these ex members' stories, plus what's happening just
in our court system and other things to say, places
(38:38):
like this need to be put under the microscopes are
more and maybe the relevant authorities that are responsible for
things like child protection or child safety actually go in
and have a look at what do they have in
place here? Do they have working with children's checks on
people who minding children or supervising activities at their camps
(38:59):
and things like that, and also question the leaders around
these policies that allow people other than parents of children
to dish out quite you know, physical and sometimes violent
punishments on other people's kids.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Do we know if anything's changed since pastorol died.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well, there's a new leader of the church who was
a I guess an alcolyte of Personol. I don't think
anything's changed. I think, if anything, they've got more from
what I'm hearing, more repressive, more secretive, building up the
walls around them because they perceive what I've done as
an attack on them. It's not that people can have
(39:40):
the right to worship who and how they like, but
society has a job to do. The media has a
job to do. When that's at the expense of other
people's physical or emotional well being.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Is there life on the other side. A lot of
these now adults that were children that grew up in
this church, have they been able to create better lives
for themselves despital of the trauma and ripping apart of
their families that they've endured.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, and that's the silver lining. Like a lot of
what we've talked about is heavy, you know, and hard
to take content, the good thing is, and the podcast
does have an element of that, there is hope, and
people who have transitioned out of such places found the
outside world's pretty good, and their kids are happy, and
they're living really good lives as productive and involved members
(40:30):
of the wider community, and they're loving it. And the
good thing is for people on the inside of places
like that, is these guys are connected through social media
and different networks. Now that you go out and you
know you did this twenty years ago, you were literally
on your own. Now you've got a group of people
who understand exactly what you're going through, who can relate
(40:52):
to what you're feeling and the challenges you might be facing,
and they're there to help you and guide you through it.
You know, in Geelong, I know, you know there was
one just last Saturday where a group of the ex
members all caught up and had a beer and enjoyed
some time together. And you know they were never allowed
to drink inside the church or anything like that, but
(41:14):
just be normal and enjoy other people's company.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So even the fact we're talking about it, the fact
that you've done this investigation, the fact that there's Facebook groups,
you know for the people still inside, there are options.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
For them, totally. Yeah, I guess you've got living proof
when you see how happy they are. There must be
something right about it, something good about it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Richard, Am I right in saying that this isn't over
for you?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
No, there's a lot more work to do. I mean
since releasing the podcast nearly a month ago, Yeah, I've
had at least another forty five people that I didn't
know when I released it contact me with all sorts
of information. And this is from around Australia and overseas,
and also in some other churches that are not part
(42:00):
of this group but operate in a very similar fashion. Yeah.
I don't know exactly where it's all going to go,
but I'm certainly my lines of inquiry many I'd say,
you know, I'm hoping next year to expand upon this
story and really really drill into a part of Australian
(42:22):
life that most of us don't know about, but that
is happening every day, just quietly out there in the
suburbs and in our regional towns, and that there are
people living in a way that is not healthy for
a large proportion of members, but particularly for young people
in there. That the things are being taught and the
(42:42):
things are being told about the world aren't true bullshit.
It sets them on a path for a life that
no one would really want. I think.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Thanks to Richard for helping us to tell this story.
We'll leave a link to Richard's podcast Secrets We Keep
Pray Harder in the show notes. True Grime Conversations is
a Mum of Meer podcast hosted and produced by me
Jimma Bath and Tarlie Blackman. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week another true Crime Conversation.
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