Rona Glynn-McDonald - Storytelling, Protecting Energy, and Honouring First Nations Wisdom - Yarning Up First Nations Stories with Caroline Kell

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Black Cast Unite our voices.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Welcome to Yanni Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,

(00:33):
proud barber woman and founder of Black Wadel Coaching and Consulting,
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the Runderi people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
It always was and always will.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Be unseated aboriginal and tourist Red Islanderland. Well, I'm so
excited about my next guest. I mean, this is I've
following for ages. I have so much admiration for an
award winning filmmaker, musician, activists, someone wearing many caps, but

(01:14):
someone who's just really changing how we think.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
About things in our public discourse as well.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
So Rona Glenn McDonald, thank you for being on Yarning Up.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this yarn beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I guess maybe before we start I should say
Happy New Year. It's twenty twenty five. What does the
new year bring for you?

Speaker 3 (01:41):
I'm really trying to protect my piece this year. I
think last year was a year where I started to
slow down. My theme for the year was to sit,
to literally sit. I had so many old people, elders,
both from the Central Desert but also in other context
as well, being like, you need to sit down, you're

(02:02):
being rumma. Now you're just traveling around. You're doing too much.
My nana kept growling me for how much I was
on planes. So last year was really about say you
note a lot of stuff to turn towards myself and
my needs grounded in the context that I'm in in
my work. And this year, I think is taking that
even further, really protecting my piece and energy and acknowledging

(02:25):
that for me to be able to do the work
that I do and share and be expansive in the
spaces that I want to be in, I have to
protect my own energy. And I love that this discourse,
in this language. I feel like so many more mob
are using it, younger mob, older mob, but just recognizing that, yeah,
we have community obligations and we're in relationship with so

(02:47):
many people, but we also need to protect our energy,
and it's so beautiful what comes from that as well.
I feel like the more that I sit and the
more that I protect my peace and I spend that
time in enriching myself, the more connected I feel to
people around me, my ancestors, the more knowledge that comes
through me, the more knowing that I have this It's

(03:08):
just amazing what what happens in unfolds when we give
ourselves space for that.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Oh so powerful, And You're right, I do feel like,
for the first time in a long time, we are
actually grappling with the fact that, yeah, our energy and
our love is sacred and finite, and we have to,
like you say, protect it just as much, and that
our capacity to be of the collective is our capacity

(03:35):
to be with ourselves. It's sort of like this duality
of this relationship. So oof, I feel that, like goosebumps,
good ways, But yeah, I mean, what what is so
slowing down even further deepening and sitting lasty? What did
that sort of look and feel like for you? What
does it feel like to sit down?

Speaker 1 (03:56):
What does it? Yeah, what does it look.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Like for you to just slow down? What are you
doing when you're slowing down?

Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's interesting. I feel like it's been different seasons that
allow for it, but also seasons that are totally up
against that idea of slowing down. So yes, I did
a lot of sitting, but I also did a lot
of walking and running last year. And when I look
at my year, it's these waves of I guess, expanding

(04:24):
and being out in the world and then actually just
literally sitting at my Auntie's place in the desert by
myself most days writing music. So the slowing down and
the sitting was a lot of literally sitting in the
sun in the mornings, just taking my sweet time. I
feel like for so many years i'd jump straight online,

(04:45):
I'd be on the emails and beyond zooms, I'd be
yarn and up straight away as soon as I got up.
But waking up in the morning and making a cuppa
and spending time to just fit in the sun as
the desert sun in winter is really warming you up
and giving that energy. I think we forget sometimes we
need vitamin D properly, like.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
You need it like a little breather, just before we
go out and hunt and gather and do.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, our families, you know, we're in the sun
all the time and sitting behind a desk or sitting
inside is not normal, Like it's not the way that
we're meant to get energy from the world. So that
kind of literally just sitting in the sun was a
big practice of mine as well as I guess when

(05:32):
I was spending time with family, like sitting down with
my nana or my dad, doing my best to just
be in that moment and be present and not not
have an end point or you know, not structure that
time of saying to myself, Okay, I'm going to spend
you know, half an hour with Nana having this cup
of tea before I have to go, then do this
other thing like giving space for things to evolve and

(05:53):
emerge and having that deeper time rather than the schedule,
the schedule of everything that you know, I'm such a
calendar goal love structuring my day so I can get
everything done. But I really moved away from that, which
was really good for me. It's really hard, I think

(06:15):
for all of us, you know, with so many competing
priorities and so much we want to be doing to
amplify all our mob and support all the work that
people are doing in different context to really just give
ourselves space to just sit.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
I feel like there's going to be people who are
listening to this episode who are starting their year who
are like, this feels really resonant for them too, So
I really, I really appreciate you sharing. But yeah, I
mean having the ability to just retreat and take that
little like just that pause sometimes can be just enough.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I think we feel like that time in the sun
or that cup of tea, or just like hugging your
fur baby, or we feel like it's so simple and insignificant,
but when we return to those little moments, they really
can make such a big deal.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
So thank you for sharing that, my sis.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
I imagine there's going to be people walking and driving
and being like, yes, yes, yes, yes, And I think
it's beautiful and brave that we're all talking about it,
you know, but normalizing it that yeah, like, today's not
it for me, and I'm just gonna retreat back for
me and give myself that energy and time.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Beautiful, bless you.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Well, I mean you're talking about spending time with your
nan and family. I'd love to maybe, yeah, go back
and start a little bit there and sort of understand
you and you and your incredible family.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
You know, you come from a family.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Of storytellers and filmmakers. But more importantly, sis like you've
just been doing the damn thing, carving out your own path.
You know. I'm wondering maybe for those who aren't familiar
with your work, if you can, you know, share a
little bit about yourself and who you are and how
you would introduce yourself to the world. Yeah, I love

(08:07):
to hear a bit more about your story.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
My name is Rona Rose Patricia number of Glynn McDonald,
many many names. Your family was so greedy, my dad
and my mom. I was like you, Mamma Rama, that's
too many names if you're on a birth certificate. Also
like the Medicare slot you yet on the family cards.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Very like.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
I'm a kadish woman from the Central Desert. I was
born on Gadigel Country. My family moved down to Gadigall
just before I was born a couple of years before,
and I spent my first seven years there. We go
back to Alice a little bit, but it wasn't until
I was eight. I think it was my eighth birthday

(08:59):
when we moved back home to Banta and the beautiful
desert and my family have been living in town for
the last couple of generations for what many people would
call townies. We've got family in communities outside of Amanta,
living up north closer to where we're from, which is
a place called Ilanjoo, a bit of scrub in the

(09:21):
middle of the desert, which for many people is the
middle of nowhere, but for me is the center of everything.
And as a young person growing up in town, it
was really interesting that kind of dynamic of you know,
we've got family everywhere, but out in the country feels
like home in many ways, even though we're visitors there,

(09:42):
so holding deep relationship to I don't know people, and
that beautiful place that's got so much healing energy, but
also is this big colonial frontier right. So many regional,
remote areas are like that, and for me, as a
young person spending a lot of my formative years there
from the age of eight, was a constant learning experience

(10:06):
and such a enriching but also violent context to be
in and also bear witness too. In terms of my
professional career, I have existed across storytelling and narrative change
and economics for a number of years, and more recently

(10:27):
my world is shifting as I've begun telling more of
my own stories and working across the music industry and
sharing my own music and productions in electronic music under
a project called Rona with a dot the end rona
Dot My love. My dad losses.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Because we always say you're big nut.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
No, I'm like, why did I put the full stop
at the end. But you know, in terms of I
guess my name going back to the long last name
that my parents gave me, Rona is the name of
my grandmother, one of my grandmothers, the sister of my
biological grandmother. Her name was Rona Glynn, and she was

(11:16):
an amazing woman. She was a nuncree, which is like
an a traditional healer. She was also a nurse, a teacher,
and a midwife, and she was this incredible, gentle, tall
woman like myself. And to be her namesake feels like
an absolute privilege in and honor, and I feel really

(11:37):
closely connected to her, even though I didn't get to
meet her. She died giving childbirth, which was a massive
tragedy for our family many years, many years before I
was born. I have such a strong line of matriarchs,
like all of us, and you know, I talk about
that sitting and that spending time with myself. I feel

(12:00):
like in creating that space, over the last couple of years,
I've become so much more connected to her energy and story,
which has been so powerful for me and my journey.
I feel really sad that I never got to meet her,
but so thankful that such a pioneer and an incredible
woman's part of my story in our family history. So

(12:24):
that's my first name.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah yeah, that energy and legacy lives on within you always.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
So yeah beautiful. I love that.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah yeah. In terms of I guess who I am
as a person, I've existed across many spaces, and my
work for a lot of this journey has been centered
around amplifying the stories and perspectives and voices of our
communities across this continent surrounding islands through my role as

(12:59):
founding CEO Common Ground, which is a fastination storytelling not
for profit, and that was my first kind of start
out the gates in terms of carving out a space
that felt like something I was doing, you know, in
relationship to my family's work in storytelling, but also doing
it in my own way outside of the space that

(13:22):
they hold across film and TV. Yeah, and then I
guess beyond that work, there's been some other innovative things
that I feel really thankful to be involved in. But
I've had a bit of an interesting journey in life
with lots of tops and topsy turvy moments in terms
of you know, where I started and where I am now.

(13:44):
I actually started in studying economics, which was quite far
from the world that I'm in today. Thinking back at that,
I'm like, Wow, that's just wild that I ended up
with like an insanely wealthy university. And you know, going
to UNI with all these kids from rich schools and

(14:05):
places across the world learning about economic systems sounds it
feels like a lifetime ago.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
M Well, gee, it's so deadly to hear. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I like about your family and your story and the
matriarchy and the legacies, and I guess all your many
talents and passions. There's something so sacred about mob names, hey,
because I think we do tend to carry either like, yeah,
last names or family names, and I love it.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
I mean, I as we're.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Talking of Air, I'm pregnant, the eighteen weeks pregnant, and
we've been thinking about having four names for our bubba
because we're trying to cram as many family in there
as possible as well. So it's really beautiful to hear that,
and they're beautiful nod to the many stories that make
you who you are. And wow, I mean it's interesting

(15:08):
to hear that, Yeah, you started out in economics and
went on to start common grounds, you know, first nation's future.
Now you're sort of you know, in filmmaking, sharing music
in all these many like beautiful, multifaceted spaces.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
It's yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
It's a bit wild to think about how I ended
up in economics, you know. I often reflect on, I
guess living and growing up in this world in Enbantua,
where you see such gross injustice and you know, either
you're experiencing and or your family are. I think, as
a as a white passing ktige woman, there was a

(15:53):
lot that I bought witness to rather than you know,
would experience. I'd go to the shops with my cousins,
who'd have a really different experience. It's getting followed by
security guards or whatever that might look like in terms
of the violence of the day that you're in. But
I'm kind of getting through all, right, which was a
really you know, it's a unique experience. And also you

(16:17):
recognize and you feel that privilege growing up, and you know,
like from me, I wanted to use that, I guess
privilege and proximity that I had to whiteness to be
able to, you know, change systems from within and look
at the structures of violence and oppression and the structures
of colonialism and what opportunities there were to shift those systems.

(16:41):
And I think the really formative time for me was
particularly in high school, when I had an economics teacher
called mister Mummy, who was teaching us about demand and
supply and wealth and you know, GDP and productivity, all
these lofty terms to talk about the way that people

(17:03):
come to get other and exchange, and it just didn't
make sense to me. It didn't make sense to me
in terms of the way that it was laid out
and how it didn't center the way that our communities
negotiate our relationships and the way that our communities exist
in relationship to one another. So you know, there was
no reciprocity, there was no balance, there was no centering

(17:27):
of community aspirations in the way that we'd learn and
talk about this stuff and made me wild, but also
made me want to learn more. You know, my earliest
memories when I was in Alice at my dad's house,
there were stories and you know these moments of you know,
you get knock on the door, we're they're at a

(17:48):
house in Gillen and my dad's place and a gilpy
walk would walk in an old man who you know
I'd probably never met, like come from remote community, come
from Mary Down's or aileron and was visiting in town
and had come to say hello to Dad and Down
and they'd have a cup of tea and it began,
and that's sit there for a couple of hours, yearning,

(18:09):
and at the end you'd see Dad slides over one
hundred dollars in cash and that old man would walk off.
And he'd then pick up the phone and call one
of my aunties and be like, hey, sis, you got
any money? I don't have any. And you see that
moment of reciprocity where Dad had received that ben if
it had that cash from a job or whatever it

(18:31):
may be, and I knew that, you know, someone else
was out of balance needed that money and had handed
that on and he'd always be looked after by someone else.
And that trust in community relationships and that trust in
our values and ways of reciprocity, he'd always keep balance
and seek balance was so powerful. And as I studied

(18:51):
economics and learned about it and learned about I guess
utility and this idea that people only exist to have more,
do more, and be more, which is just not true
and it shouldn't be true. It is true for some people,
but you know, our mob and our many nations and

(19:13):
cultures have always centered that care for each other, that
seeking to be in relationship and to hold balance four
thousands and thousands of years. And so I went off
to study at university to learn more about that way
of thinking that colonial systems and economic systems was really perpetuating.

(19:37):
And I went to university in Melbourne on a country
country wanting you know, many answers, but I think I
probably left with more questions. And it was a really
formative time for me, particularly learning about not just economic systems,
but starting to connect with social change community who I guess.

(20:01):
In learning about how systems work, I began to realize
that they're just made up of individuals, Like the economic
system is just made up of a whole lot of
individuals that decide it's going to be that way because
we perpetuate and create the space for it to be
that way. And individuals only act and behave based off
the mindsets that they hold, and the mindsets that they

(20:24):
hold all come back to storytelling. Like, if you have
a mindset that we have to have more, do more,
and be more, then you're going to perpetuate harm and
creating a capitalist economic system. But if you've got a
mindset that's centered around reciprocity and care for community and
First Nations values, then a system's going to look really different.
So I came back to it and realized that storytelling

(20:46):
is at the heart of shifting futures for not only
our people, but all people as well, and reimagining what
mindsets we hold into the future. Knowing that since seventeen
eighty eight, the systems here have been built off colonial violence,
off storytelling that was inherently colonial of non Indigenous mindsets,

(21:08):
and we needed to shift by creating more spaces for
our voices to be heard and amplified, for our mob
to be able to tell stories on our own terms,
and ensure that our stories aren't just heard, but they're
acted upon. And in our futures, we have all of
our young people strong in their cultures, strong in their storytelling,

(21:28):
so that we can self determine our own futures and
live our best lives. So that's a bit of the yar.
I guess how I ended up in economics. And you know,
it's been interesting because now that work in economics has
kind of given me a little bit of legitimacy working
in the funding space and trying to shift resources and

(21:50):
power back to mob and you know, do things like
wealth back and create more pathways for the redistribution of
soulen wealth and wages. And I think when you can
say I've got an economics degree, people in listen to you.
But other than that, it was so formative, I guess,
in this journey of understanding what my theory of change

(22:12):
and role was in trying to shift these systems to
better center our values and aspirations and voices.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Wow, so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
It's so so incredibly fascinating to hear some of those
really pivotal shifts in your thinking. And I guess decolonizing
our studies in which we learn, I mean, I think
most people in societies now, most inverb commas, are I guess,
thinking about themselves in relation to a postcolonial, neoliberal capitalist society.

(22:45):
I know where in my circles, especially as a black
business owner, I mean something that's so a title that
is so new to me, Like there's no one in
my family who owned a business. And so I think
we're all sort of thinking about those things that you
say that that we possess as black falls, which is

(23:07):
working in relation to and sharing of resources, and I
guess trying our best to challenge that myth that scarcity
is a lie creates that sort of neat like that neoliberal, competitive,
hyper individual way, and it's an interesting paradox I feel

(23:27):
like too, though, because as a black business owner, like
we I see, you know, for many of us, it's
like trying to get out of the struggle and trying
to get out of like lift ourselves out of poverty
and help our families along the way. It's not like
a singular process. And we're coming into these spaces with

(23:49):
no wealth, no resources, I mean in terms of wealth,
and but but those values and those values will sustain us.
I think that is what sustains our business. You know,
it's just such an interesting conversation I think for us
to have around especially our relationship with labor and wealth

(24:12):
and the economy.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
And I think so many people that I.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yarn with on this show and in my circles sort
of all almost like had to go to university to
learn the colonial way and then to unlearn it, unbecome it,
rewrite it and do it in their own ways, which
you have, which you very much have in two of
your I guess ventures and under this guise of storytelling

(24:38):
and now more recently I think what we call a
circular economy. Perhaps, So I want to if we can
go through a couple of things like this is a
side of a new year. Last year was hugely transformative,
and I just want to talk through maybe some of
the things you've done, and you know, not in terms

(25:00):
of the accolades as such, but some of the lessons
these things have taught you because you're leading the way
in so many spaces. So you know, you started your
business common grounds, which is you know, really around storytelling
and like you say, not just hearing but enacting the change.

(25:22):
And yeah, last year you did what many of us
talk about in community, which has stepped down as CEO
and hand on the baton, And yeah, I guess build,
create poor and then create a sustainable business that can
be handed on, which is in the spirit of this

(25:44):
whole thing we're talking about, which is around reciprocity and
giving back too. So I wonder if maybe we could
start there, And then I'd love to hear about your
latest business venture, First Nation's Future, which is like such
a powerful, incredible initiative. But yeah, common Ground, how did
it come to be? What led you to the decision
of stepping down?

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah? Can you share with us a bit more, Massis.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
It's been an amazing year and many years in the
works to get to that moment. From my perspective, I
never like being at the center of things, and I
only hold space in something when I know that my knowledge,
capacity or energy is needed, and there's a time when

(26:33):
that ends. As well as I think that in our work,
we always have to be making ourselves redundant. If we're not,
what are we doing? Yeah, and our young people have
such amazing capacity. All of our roles should be about
building other people up so that they can step into

(26:53):
spaces where you no longer stand. Yeah, And that's inherently
been the way that I've always operated and common Ground.
Yes I'm the founder, but common has been the work
of so many amazing people in developing that not for profit.
We've got an all first nations team and board, and
so early on I was already planning and paving the

(27:15):
way for when I could step back and have someone
step in. Gemma Pole, who's taken over the CEO role.
She was our second hire and she's such an amazing woman.
And being able to back her to grow in the
ways that she wanted to grow over the last few
years and get to a point where I'm no longer
needed in that context has been amazing as well. As

(27:38):
a year later after we hired Gemma, we hired Katina Vallestro,
who has become our COO, and we've been working so
hard to reimagine what a structure of leadership can look like,
women's leadership can look like in a not for profit organization,
and not create this reliance on one person, but this

(27:59):
web of many people that are holding that leadership and
creating the strategy and vision for the way forward. And
it's that network and that energy and tapestry that creates
so much strength and I think, like particularly the nonprofit sector,
and it's similar, you know, in the business context as well,
that there's this kind of obsession with like magical founders

(28:25):
and individual CEOs and you know, the buck stops with someone,
and I think that that doesn't work for a lot
of contexts, and.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Particularly with the way that we all.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
Want to exist in this world, which is that well,
actually I don't know if everyone does, but for me,
I'm like, I don't want to be in the grind constantly,
and I want to be able to be responsive to
my energy but also what's going on in my community
and family, to be able to come in for seasons
of big, energetic work, but also then retreat and put
my energy elsewhere. And you can only do that when

(28:58):
you create a network to leadership model. And it's not perfect,
and we're still test it out. You know, I'm no
longer a CEO, but I'm supporting the team working a
day a week at the moment to just make sure
that they're able to carve out their own space and
thrive in the roles that they have. But it's been
really beautiful and I feel like I don't haven't reflected

(29:20):
on it enough this kind of moment of the season
of my leadership ending and the season starting and growing
for other people. It's been special, and I imagine this
kind of model will be something that I always want
to replicate. As I said, like, I don't like being
at the center of everything, and I just think seasons
change and I'm always evolving as a person. You know.

(29:43):
These things that I've been part of starting and have
been about addressing a problem and trying to create something
that community needs. But once it's there, I want it
to flourish without me.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, gosh, you're right.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
There's so much that you say there, Like I think
that the non for profit or they that magical founder
as you say it does.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
It's sort of you think of.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Like startup, hustle, grind, you know, and it's the bell
curve of all of that.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
And you're right.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
In Aboriginal communities, we divulge power to our people. And
I'm like you, siss I say, I love being in
the background or the black up. I think, you know,
I think I just thrive in a space where we're
working collectively, sharing collective wisdom, as opposed to never really
wanted to place myself as some expert or master. But yeah,

(30:42):
I think it's a beautiful thing what you've done since
I think we talk about.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
That a lot.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
I see it a lot in spaces where you know,
some people are just maybe in the space too long with.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
Your crusting now move on, Like, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
Think, you know, we really do have to be thinking
about building something and that idea of letting it go
it being reshaped and.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Redefined by new energy, new life.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Like the young people that are coming up are just incredible,
and so it's sort of like it demands a bit
of self work, I think to be able.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
To let go and not be have our.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Identity or even our ego or whatever attached to the thing.
And so yeah, I really commend you on that and
what you created there at common Ground. I know for
me when I started my business, it was sort of like, yeah,
if we could aspire to be like any other business,
it was you mob, you know, leading the way in
that space because you just brought everyone along and really yeah,

(31:45):
modeled that ethos. I guess what you're talking about, Like
your old man, bless.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yours collective work has to be collective, yeah, and it
just it fails, and it fails so miserably and The
strength that comes from that collectivities is the reason that
I get up in the morning, or I jump on
a zoom, or I go to a meetings. The most
enriching moments I have in the work is always when
I'm in relationship with other people. It's in the room,

(32:12):
it's facilitating, or it's I guess like, the biggest joy
I've had in the experience of all the work that
I've done is honestly seeing other mobs grow in themselves
and see their growth in themselves. Just that beautiful moment
when someone you know goes from not seeing themselves as

(32:33):
a storyteller to them being so strong calling themselves a
storyteller and being out and loud and proud, or seeing
a team member really grow in their confidence in a
skill set like I just love that shit. If you've
always worked with the board's powerful and you know you're
shown up in the right way when you see that
flourish of volve for someone. So it's interesting. Now I'm

(32:57):
moving more into music. I'm really deeply thinking about how
can I continue that space that common ground and first
nation's futures is held in. That's art for me, which
so far, you know, doing workshops with like people in
the Central Desert and sharing DJ knowledge or skills or production,

(33:19):
like giving mob feedback on their tracks, like and seeing
their growth when you tell them how deadly they are, Like,
I just not that I'm you know, I'm not like
some bloody elder or that established in music yet. But
I think it just takes one person, you know, to
really believe in back someone for them to be able
to see that within themselves and feel that strength within themselves.

(33:41):
And I do think that an important part of the
role that I'll continue to play in people's lives is
that person to really, you know, like look someone in
the eye and say, now you've got this, Like you've
got it. You know, you've got that special something in
storytelling or you know, your music's amazing, and those moments

(34:03):
are just powerful people. And have had so many people
who've done that for me. So yeah, I guess I'm
always just trying to be a bloody good human. As
for other people, backing people.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Will be back your mob right after this short break.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, And it's so I mean, like it kind of.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
You know, not to oversimplify it, but it sort of
circles back to the first point you said about when
you're sitting with your nan or whatever, like just sometimes
MOB just need that presence to be heard and hold
in the space and be like, like you say, just
get them up and be like, Yay, this is a
brilliant idea, or how do we do this this sounds deadly,
or just whatever it is for them to believe in

(35:01):
themselves because everything in the you know, neo liberal colonial
world tells us that we actually it takes us so
far out of ourselves and our own intuition and our
own black knowing that sometimes just sitting in with someone
and being like, yeah, let's fucking do this is like yeah,
I feel that. I feel that energy too, and we

(35:24):
need spaces where we can just yeah, cultivate that. Because
MOB is so inherently creative and entrepreneurial and loving and generous.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Sometimes it's just that the presence of a juicy.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yarn or exploring an idea or making yourself available can
be enough.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
So yeah, wow, I mean so special.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
I mean, how do you how does one go or
pivot from common grounds into first nations futures? And for
people who don't know what this initiative is, can you.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Share about it? What's the ethos. What are you hoping
to achieve?

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, what impact do you hope that First Nation's Futures
has And tell us a little bit about it, if
that's all right.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah. So, First Nations Futures is First Nations led not
for profit creating pathways for all people to redistribute wealth
and power to our mob to community led initiatives with
a focus on young people, cultural revitalization, and country. And

(36:40):
it's a collective piece of work that I've been part
of for five years. I have a co founder, Louis Mocac,
and an amazing board and so many incredible mob who've
contributed on this journey as well. And it really was
born out of, I guess this collective conversation that many
of our families have been having of the story of

(37:01):
wealth across this continent surrounding islands, and in my experience,
I guess how I came to the conversation more recently
was through that story and economics, but also through the
process of starting common ground and beginning to interact with
the big bad world of philanthropy and this world that

(37:24):
I'd never interacted with. A lot of people from where
I'm from don't interact with. You know, a lot of
our community orgs have been receiving government funding for many
years that's constantly changing its tune and defunding and then
refunding and just cooking any kind of self determination or
leadership on the ground. And in the work of starting

(37:46):
common Ground, I went to Melbourne University and I was
going to college with young people from some very wealthy
families and was really lucky in that the relationships that
I built in that context meant that I was able
to to start getting connections into philanthropy to people's parents

(38:07):
who wanted to redistribute wealth and wanted to fund something
in the first Nation's context, but didn't know what to fund,
or they had trust in me because they knew me.
And that was great for common Ground, but it really
sat funny in me the kind of journey that I
went on in terms of engaging with philanthropy and recognizing
that you needed to have proximity to power, privilege and

(38:30):
whiteness and often an urban context to be able to
get access to funding. And you know, the way that
I look, the way that I present, the trust that
people had through the relationships that I held, all things
that meant like tick tick tick, you can have money,
which is like inherently cooked, right when you think about
the inequity that that kind of system then breeds when

(38:53):
you know, I'm trying to keep a door open and
introduce family in a remote community or in central desert
back to these funders. And because of what people were doing,
or because of the way people presented, because they talked
different to me, because they don't have a fancy deck, like,
all these things meant that doors kept getting shut. And

(39:16):
it was big moments of colonial violence really that I
kept experiencing where I'd be like, you know, and you
should meet these mob and they'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, nah,
I'm not going to meet them, And it just made
me so angry, so so so angry, and I began
to see that this big world of philanthropy is one
of the foundational systems of the colonies. Right, You've stolen wealth,

(39:40):
you've stolen labor, you've extracted from country, You've built your
wealth off stolen land, and then you're going to then
decide how the money's redistributed, and you're going to do
it in harmful ways. You're going to only give zero
point five percent to first nations areas and I just
saw the need to completely flip that system and the

(40:00):
need to begin growing this yard two spaces that weren't
talking about pay the rent movements to spaces that needed
to really look at where wealth had come from and
begin redistributing. And I guess the work started in twenty
twenty during a Black Lives Matter movement or moment when

(40:21):
we saw a huge influx of capital come into First
Nations orgs and community groups, and it was amazing seeing
that flow of capital, but it stopped after a week.
I remember looking at common Grounds donations page and we
got a huge amount of money through in a week,
and then it went back to business as usual, like
five hundred dollars a quarter and nothing coming through those flows.

(40:43):
And as well as you know, it shouldn't be up
to white fellows to decide where the money goes. It
should be on our own terms and driven by First
Nations leadership, not you know, so many people fund spaces
that aren't led by our mob that are black clad.
You know, there's spaces that critically need funding and space
is that receive a lot of funding and that inequity continue.

(41:06):
So we started co creating the model in twenty twenty
and it just started with Yarns online. I was locked
down in arm at the time and we just started
yelling to people we got on these zooms. We were
talking to the most amazing established leaders, elders, young people,
community members all across the continent and surrounding islands, and

(41:30):
just started with you know, what's your story of wealth
on your country, what needs to change, what solutions are needed?
And we started this co creation process that eventually landed
in as signing off of the model with a strategic
workshop with about thirty MOB in the room online. It

(41:51):
was all online back in twenty twenty one, I think
or twenty twenty two, and then we launched the model
last year. And essentially what we've started with is a
platform where we partner with organizations and initiatives that are
aligned to our impact model, which we co created with
all these mob over time, and then we get people
to redistribute to them directly to them, and that kind

(42:15):
of the money that comes through our platform is split
across our partners, and our vision is to grow the
partners over time. So we've got regional diversity. There's people
working in all different intersections of community work, grassroots work
and operating at different scales, and they're able to get
unrestricted funding from First Nations futures that supports them to
just meet their aspirations and be able to determine where

(42:39):
the money goes and on their own terms, on their
own lands, and we get out of the way and
just really trust those mobs to do the work and
completely flip the philanthrophy model. So we've had an amazing
journey over the last year in the public realm since
we've launched and yeah, when did we launch twenty twenty three?

(42:59):
Oh my gosh, it feels like so long ago. But
I think this work isn't just about the money flows.
It's also about the language and campaigning around the need
to redistribute wealth. And we've been running campaigns to support
I guess that's shifting of language, but the starting of
conversation as well. Talking about philanthropy is not a handout

(43:21):
or a hand up. It's actually your obligation if you
live on stolen land for all Australians, mums, dads, individuals
and the upper end of town and corporates and business
to be doing this. So we've created a pathway for
people to do that, but it's also about growing that
narrative so that more people do it, and not just
through First Nation's futures, through all kinds of context. Right,
there's other First Nations led funding platforms. There needs to

(43:43):
be many more every kind of sector, in every kind
of area, in every kind of region, and it needs
to be led from community from the ground up. So
it's been interesting some of the reflections. I had a
yarn with a blackfellow last year who was like, you
more really out there, like using some pretty strong language,

(44:05):
and it's doing good for me because this person's trying
to raise funding for something that's probably less hard for
non Indigenous people to grapple around language. You know, they're
doing amazing work. But he was like, you're pushing this
language and this narrative. That then makes it easier for
me to kind of pick up some of the people

(44:25):
that are shifting in their thinking and recognizing that they've
got to redistribute more, and redistribute now and do it
on mob mobs terms. So it's been beautiful to see.
I guess the impact of some of that narrative change work,
which is so important, comes back to storytelling.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Right, Yeah, Wow, yeah, God, and such an important story
for this country to have, isn't it about the acquisition
and power and money and resources and the dissonance of
perhaps how that has been acquired. So good on you,

(45:04):
I guess for starting to really think about that philanthropic space.
I mean, yeah, I want to sort of asks youise
a little bit of a follow up to that, Like
for people who might not know, I think we talk
a lot like we have on this show particularly, I've
had some really wonderful guests.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Benny A.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Pintendalo is also really passed passionate about these conversations.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
And others around.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, like the notion of stolen wealth in this in
so called Australia, and how so many of our mob have, yeah,
not being paid or compensated for their labor, and it
still very much continues today, considering how much of the
non traditional roles we take on unpaid labor through activism,

(45:54):
organizing kinship care in direct response of colonial violence. But
you know, what do we know about the philanthropic space,
Like how much money are we talking?

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Do you reckon exist in these spaces?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
And are you seeing the shifts in how the philanthropic
space want to engage with black followers and black issues,
or do you think that there's still such a long
way to go, because when we can get off I'm
just quite in my armies here, you know, my family,
we can get off that welfare titty and we can
start making money, as she would say, and we can

(46:32):
just do our own business. And this is why this
in organization is so important. You know. I work with
organizations like Pay the Rent and Dad you are, And
when they don't have that bureaucratic red tape and the
reporting and administrative and yeah, like you say, being colonized
in a very sophisticated way through service agreements and grants

(46:52):
and things, they can do incredible work with communities. So yeah,
what are we seeing in the philanthropic space and are
we seeing a change?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
And how much money do you reckon?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
We're talking there's so much money, it's insane. They're just
scraping little bits off the top too. Yeah, it's pretty wild.
At the moment they say that zero point five percent
of philanthropy is going to First Nations areas, let alone
first Nations lead organizations and initiatives, And I don't know

(47:25):
with the magnitude of that that's I think that's in
the hundreds of millions going to factor that. But there's
like a trillion dollar transfer happening right now between baby
boomers and the next gen of inheritance. When you think
about that alone and younger people's values around climate, around

(47:47):
indigenous leadership and biodiversity, around First Nations justice, there's a
huge opportunity in terms of that capital flow and being
able to support people but also agitate peop people to
redistribute when those flows are made. I think there's a

(48:08):
really interesting opportunity in the next few years to look
at individuals, young people.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, peers up yeers, Yeah, money from their wealth.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
And acknowledging like Yeah, there's all these sophisticated family foundations
and these big entity set up in philanthropy that are
all building their gam and advisory groups and slightly changing
their policies and starting to give a bit in the
First Nations area, but they're not really up there for
doing this work at scale. Like, there's very few foundations

(48:41):
that are doing this work well. And we've done a
lot of working philanthropy, going to conferences, building relationships, and
there's some amazing family foundations out there that are you know,
for example, moving their board to an all First Nations
board and creating a First Nations foundation where a white
fellow's just gone, I've got all this money, I want
to give it over to mob to redistribut it. That's sick.

(49:04):
There's not too many people doing that. There's a lot
of people just paying lip service and creating a strategy
where they give to First Nations areas but not doing
it in hugely scaled ways. And what we need is
hugely scaled ways to get off that welfare titty. It
is exhausting work. Like I spend a lot of time

(49:26):
trying to agitate and build relationship in these spaces and
constantly get let down by these philanthropists. There's a couple
that are really in our corner, but there's a lot
that are just talking big game, honestly talking big game.
And I think post referendum, this is the devastating impact
of what happened in it. So many funders started giving

(49:47):
to First Nations areas for the first time in the referendum.
Some people supported in the referendum, which was amazing and
you know, awesome that people rallied behind it, but because
it didn't get the result that they expected, now they're going, oh, oh, well,
like I don't know, we just don't know where to
put money now because we've you know, we put so
much money in there and we have no more money left.

(50:07):
And I'm like, fucking bullshit. They still exist. Yeah, there's
so much you can fund as you should be funding more.
You should be funding more storytelling, more advocacy. That's the
reason why we didn't get it up, you know, like
all those issues around storytelling and all those issues around
campaigning and community led movements rah rah rah. But you know,

(50:28):
it's still a big, bad world and in that space,
and if I'm completely honest as an organization at First
Nation's futures and in terms of my own individual energy, yeah,
I'm focusing less on that upper end of town, focusing
more on you know, how do we build more narratives
in social enterprise and corporate Australia with individuals because we

(50:51):
have millions of people that can redistribute. Imagine if every
Australian redistributed ten dollars a week. Yeah, yeah, TAXA was
not doing it well.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
And it's like even like a small percentage of the GDP,
like we're all eating good. So yeah, and I think,
you know, with with governments looking down the barrel of
a federal election as you with Dunton, and I guess
just yeah, economic collapse, not to sound terrifying, but just

(51:23):
like really tightening the budgets, we really do need to
sort of shift the narrative and have conversations in community
about what does building community look like independent of governments.
And so I really commend the efforts that your organization
is taking and like you say, like that that that
black fellow said, you know, just giving us also the
language and framing and permission to have a conversation about, yeah,

(51:46):
the acquisition of wealth in this country and how it
intersects with our ability to make choice, our agency, our health,
our ability to actually determine our futures. We need we
need some of that money. We need some of that money, honey.
So I love it.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
It's interesting though, Caroline, I feel like, you know, started
in the space of storytelling. It's still a through line.
It's like common ground, you know, is this mechanism to
amplify our voices and mob so that Australia is less
racist and colonial and cooked. And then first nation's futures

(52:27):
is like once there's people are more connected in relationship
to our storytelling, and they've shifted their mindsets and values,
and then they can redistribute through first nation's futures. That's
kind of like this perfect flow, right. Yeah, the theory
of change's.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Like a nice funnel into funnel.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
My theory of change is always changing as well, acknowledging
that we need so many different solutions and approaches to
be able to solve all of the challenges that our
communities face. But to be honest, it's like begging for
money and redistribution of wealth. I'm starting to get exhausted
by it, and I'm like, you know, it's a busy

(53:03):
the space. I'm like, the building up of black business
is just such a powerful way to be able to
build our own wealth base. So maybe that's my next
moves is coming into that space acknowledging that, yeah, we
need you know, black fellow lead startup unicorns, and we
need to be philanthropists.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Oh, I mean even if you were to just do anything,
think tanks for other black entrepreneurs who are starting too
often don't have the framework.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
They've got the vision, they've got everything ready to.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Go, but sometimes might not have the framework all the
all the means financially, I think, yeah, I know, for myself,
nothing gives me greater satisfaction than knowing that I'm carving
out something for me and my family, of course, but
that I'm not working in the Western paradigm. I'm adjacent

(53:57):
to it, you know, I don't have to go to
a nine to five and and it gives me me
that choice, that freedom as a black sovereign woman to
put my energy into my community where I see fit.
And so I think you're right, definitely, And we are
seeing a huge explosion of aboriginal businesses because we're probably

(54:19):
all just a bit fed up of working in this
sort of relationship with whiteness. So yeah, I mean the
future looks promising in that space. And yeah, I could
only imagine the toll it would take in sort of
begging and pleading with colonizers to reconcile.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Their privilege and they're so comfortable. Well, I want to
sort of flip.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
A little bit, a little narrow, like a little shift,
I guess in the narrative of this storytelling evolution from yourself,
and that's probably just yeah, innately within you, and you know,
thinking about how you shifted that into music, storytelling and
what do you like? It must be a pretty vulnerable

(55:04):
thing because you mentioned before you kind of like to
build and sort of stand back, so to speak. And
now here you are putting out your craft and your
music to the world, which is a very solo venture. So, yeah,
keen to hear about your music. Last year you release burn,

(55:26):
which burn it Sorry, which is a very powerful way
to you know, talk about the story of the colony
and the colony burning, and so yeah, you release Burnt,
You played your first boiler room set. Yeah, what have

(55:46):
been the sort of moments of I guess, joy and
doubt and surprise along the way in putting yourself out
there into the world and this sort of new medium
of storytelling for you.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
It's been a really interesting journey that I'm often reflecting
on and grappling with around that space of sharing my
own creations and my own storytelling. When I think about
like a lot of my family role like you know,

(56:22):
who I've learned from my mum, my dad, my brother,
my grandmother's I feel like our family often you know,
they might be directing a film, but it's often supporting
storytelling that might not be our own story or it's yeah,

(56:44):
being that kind of in the blackground in some ways,
you know, making cool shit to happen, but not being
like right in the center. And you know, I'd say
my dad loves the fame a little bit now his egos,
but that's not inherently who he is, you know, like
good ways, but yeah, there's that little bit of shaming

(57:06):
in the spotlight like that. It just doesn't feel supernatural.
And you know, it wasn't how I was raised. I
was raised to sit quietly and reflective and yeah, go
go about things in slow and intentional ways, which I'm
trying to bring that kind of way of operating and
who I am in that way into music. But that's

(57:28):
not how the music industry works. Like the music industry
wants you to be shamelessly self promoting, which is awesome.
I fucking love that, Like, I think it's incredible how
people feel really comfortable doing that, and it's part of
building a profile in music, and people do really well
at it. But for me, it feels really unnatural to be, yeah,

(57:51):
doing that kind of intense promotion, but also to be
constantly like pushing out more stuff. You know, we've started
this year and talking about seasons of sitting and then
being out in the world and retreating, and that way
of operating in the modern music context is in conflict
with how things.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Work in terms of like it's very much like you
must produce now, you must create.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
Another single, the.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Bus, another bus, another club, club.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Another club, another mix, mix, a TikTok more do more.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Okay, challenging.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
It is challenging, and I think particular when you're referencing
like success around you of your peers and looking at
I guess a lot of non indigenous artists and the
way that they're breaking and that relentlessness that grind in
the self promotion but also in the creation and in
all of it. Yeah, it doesn't feel like the way

(58:51):
I want to go about that process, and so I've
been grappling with that, I guess as well. And you know,
last year I had some writing periods where I'd sit
down on country and just write. And I've been really
focused on in everything. And this is something that I
talk about a lot with the team at Common Ground
and I have for years, is that we must focus

(59:11):
on the process of something over the output of something.
And what makes something inherently black to me is about
the process beyond not actually the output. It's about what
is that journey of collaboration or that journey of creation
that we've gone through to get to something that is
then shared. You know, it's less about what is shared.

(59:32):
It's more about the twists and turns on that journey
and the moments of laughter and the moments of relation
relationship that lead to it. And I've been really focused
on that the process in the last year when I'm writing,
for example, like I'm writing at the moment something that's

(59:53):
really centered on knowledge and healing that I've learned and
I'm learning that's kind of the themes one of the
you know, the kind of core themes of the next
body of work that I'm creating at the moment, and
focusing on creating from a place of healing and stillness
and sitting. It's been just such so powerful to kind

(01:00:14):
of push back a little bit around what's expected in
the industry and take my time, like take my sweet
ass time, urgently patient. Right. But it was an amazing
year for putting myself out there, like doing the Boiler Room,
which really like lit a fire under meath in many ways.
To know that I had this broadcast thing one of

(01:00:37):
the I guess career major kind of moments that a
EJA or producer can have. It was the scariest thing
I think I've ever done. It was the most nervous
I've ever been, which is wild to think that, you know,
I can stand up at a conference and speak in
front of fifteen hundred people, and yes, I'll be a

(01:00:57):
bit nervous, but I'm like, I've got this. Going into
a boiler room, I had so much self doubt, like
I'm I've had before. I just wasn't feeling strong, and
I think I was really focused on like how other
people had done it before and being much more external
and trying to, I guess, learn from what had worked

(01:01:22):
to then create my own set, which was the wrong
way to go about it. I should have sat down
with my dad and he would have told me, like
you told me recently. He was like, growner, You've got
sixty thousand years of rhythm in your body, Like you've got.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
This, Yeah, yeah, come back to what you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Come back to what you know and who you are.
And I think I got there in the end with
the boiler room, But you know, it was three months
of freaking out. I've got so much acne.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
It was a wild I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
You slay the boiler room, and for everyone of us
who were watching, people like yourself or Nay or Sky there,
it's like it feels such a moment that you get
to share with us all to so you slay it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
And but I can imagine the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Nexus I guess of yeah, having this ethos about collectivism
and then being like it feels like kind of vulnerable
to put this, like put your art out into the world.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
And like here I am, I am now that's you.
I'm a business. I'm the business.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
Now, you know. It's not like, oh, yeah, this board
a board you know me and the board you know
created this song. Is like that was just me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yeah and so and that's possibly why so many people
would just shy away from it. So, you know, going
through that sort of uncharted territory and being uncomfortable, and
for everyone who's at those sets and at the gigs
and listening get to sort of experience that the gift
of your talent. Yeah, it's such a it's such a

(01:02:53):
beautiful sort of lesson to share for all of us.
Just like fear the fear and do it anyway. But yeah,
it's terrifying as fuck, I imagine. So, yeah, wow, Wow,
what a what an evolution you have continue to go
through in all these beautiful seasons.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
It's kind of like, and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
I feel like you're still at the start of everything.
You're so you're such a young person really, and you're
such an elder in so many ways, like you know,
in terms of your mourope and your spirit. It's like, wow,
it's just incredible. I mean I also heard something in
there which I don't know if I'm picking up, but yeah,

(01:03:34):
it's like it's like everything you've done in is sort
of challenging the status quo.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
In way things how they should be.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
But yeah, if there's a way to slow down and
being tensionable with music, and also maybe a way to
collaborate with some people along the way to bring in
that collectivism in this space. I mean, if you could,
like rapid fire off the cuff collaborate with anyone right now,
who do you think you would.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Today? Yeah, this is random Paul Mack, which no one's
going to know who. Paul mac is like one of
the pioneers in the Australian electronic context, and I just
found out recently, he did this amazing album with some
nunga singers and he supported them to like create a

(01:04:22):
whole lot of dance tracks. And I just think I'm
really interested. He's also a professor of music at Sydney University.
He's a white fella. As far as I know, I've
never seen a photo him. I just know that's someone
who I'm really interested. To me, that's really really random,

(01:04:42):
But I, oh, this is actually really sad. Don't make
me cry. Don't make myself cry. I want to collaborate
with our old people that have want to wrestle with
their songs, and that just makes me really sad. I
guess the timeline that I live in, I'm here for

(01:05:04):
a reason. But we've only got a few k DID
singers left, and we lost a KDIG singer last year.
And yeah, like for women, I'm talking about women because
that's kind of you know, I relate to women. And

(01:05:24):
just thinking about my great grandmother, Topsy, she's a singer,
and I'm like, fuck, I want to collaborate with you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
How special.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Yeah, And in this journey of the work that I've
been doing in music, like I feel like I'm constantly
trying to push towards this threshold of artistry that I'm
not quite at, Like my aspiration is always beyond where
I'm able to meet my aspiration, and there's this gap.
And one of those major gaps is around rhythms and

(01:05:57):
melody and songs that our family have had but no
longer hole. And I've been doing a lot of language
work and supporting a whole lot of workout on Kiditch
Country for the last few years with old people, and
it's been predominantly focused on animals and kinship and ethnobiology,

(01:06:19):
and we haven't quite gotten to the song bit. We've
been really focused on plants and animals and that knowledge.
And yeah, to collaborate with some of these old ladies
on songs, you know, it's a journey to get to
the time when that's the right time to do something.
You can't push, you know, like you can't push for
this stuff. It's got to happen and it's right moment

(01:06:40):
and evolve and in intentional ways, but also just you know,
that's a kind of sitting down. You know what happens
in the right moment when you've done the sitting. So
I guess the collaborators that I really want to work
with are those old people who have some songs, but
also we've got some songs that are recorded that you know.

(01:07:00):
My dream is to do some song camps and support
of those old ladies to remember as well some of
these songs. And they've shared songs across you know, sitting
with you ladies and ladies from other places that have
some of the songs that we're connected to.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
So they I feel like I'm going to cry and
a goosey put out and I'm not even gonna blame
my hormones because of just thinking about that as a
process is like so beautiful, and also like that giving
back to for them to have that archive and story
played back for them is really would be so powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
I mean, I think if there's anyone who's going to
weave the baskets of all the things, it's going to
be you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
My cis, you know, bringing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Your many passions and staying true to you and your
culture and your cultures and your your legacies along the way.
So I can't wait to see what's in store for
you next day. It really does feel like just the beginning,
and you'll navigate this nexus.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
We know you will. You'll navigate it, my sea.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I could sit and talk to you for hours, literally,
like I'm thinking, this has probably got a million other
things to do. But were I think we are in
the slow down season. I've got a couple more questions
and then I'm gonna let you go. And you know,
I feel like I have to ask this question for
all the sisters who listen my aunties or my family

(01:08:26):
chat and we know, and I feel like, yeah, I'd.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Get a bit of a skyfuve if I didn't. But
you're hard launch with Tony. I'm strong you, Mob.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
I was reading through and have been called by The
Herald's Son Australia's hottest couple, which I love because I
love black love. I'll tell you I love black love.
I love love, but I love black love. I just
want to ask, you know, yeah, how do you Mob
balance being in the public eye? And I was also

(01:09:00):
reading in one of the articles that the timing and
that you do have together or your relationship in and
of itself is sacred. I mean, can you share with
us anything about the relationship, the most surprising or beautiful
thing you guys have learning being together? And yeah, any
other tea for the arts?

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Then I think he's inherently really private. Yeah, I am too. Yeah,
it's been an interesting journey to protect that sacredness of
our relationship and also our journey and evolution together, but
also share glimpses with the world. And I want to

(01:09:39):
share a whole lot sometimes and then other times I'm like,
I want to share nothing, and it's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
To keep things to yourselves, though I imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
It is all, but also I want to share I guess,
more sides of us as we come together. I think
it's been such a special journey for us getting to
know each other. But also I've never felt so seen
by a person in my life. It's pretty well, actually,
my mum sees me in really big ways that I
won't acknowledge, you know, but yeah, so seen by someone.

(01:10:11):
I think he feels that too, And it's been such
a special time in that we've just held each other
in facing some of our you know, deepest traumas. I
guess in terms of that space, that sacred space you
can hold when someone really looks into themselves, into their
past and into the future and is really like we're

(01:10:36):
reimagining who we are in terms of how we hold
relationship with one another and grow. Like, I just think
you've grown so much in the last two years as individuals,
like changed a lot in that growth as well, and
that's been insanely powerful to have like a partner who's

(01:10:58):
supporting you to become a better person and to look
at your blind spots or yeah, just really hold each
other accountable to in that growth. It's been fucking amazing, honestly,
you know. I think, like the tea that I'd give
is Tony actually loves sport as much as he can.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
I think we can tell.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Yeah, it's not an act. And he is as lovely
as he projects to be on TV. Like the person
you see on TV is literally who he is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Yeah, it feels like everyone's brother.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Everyone's brother. He's a big labrador. Sometimes it's annoying, like
when you go to the club and like he's just
made everyone's friends. We just sit in the corner quiet ways,
like friend, which we love. Yeah, he's a beautiful person
and I'm very, very thankful to be able to share
life with him.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
Yeah, it's so nice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
I think like when you're in a relationship where you
can like independently grow and then yeah, as a as
a partnership grow and pour that into those vessels since
sometimes simultaneously. I think, yeah, it's a it's a pretty
profound thing to find a person where you can can

(01:12:15):
do that with.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
And yeah, how special? How special?

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
And yeah, I mean it's just balancing it all too,
you know, like that, like the practicalities of it all.
Like I think, like, you know, my partner I've been
with for thirteen years now, Mike, and it's just always around.
But I imagine your mob, with these schedules, trying to
like really maintain that is a really deeply sacred act.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
So yeah, how special.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Well, we're so glad that, as I say, we love
love and we love black love, and yeah, it's nice
to hear that, you mob. Yeah, I just continuing to
grow and evolve together. I'd love to be a fly
on the wall on some of the conversations. You two
haven't around the dinner table always.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
I don't know what's been going on. But I never
liked musicals growing up, right, I don't know why I
never liked them, But we started doing musical theater and
in the house just like randomly, when you should we
sing the good Evening song and then we just start
like busting out made.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Up to dancing around the house.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
I'm like, the neighbors bearing witness to this must be
like shut the.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Hell up.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Time in our own little bubble at the moment. Yeah,
which has been so special. I think, you know, definitely
don't have thirteen years like you do. But in the
last you know, few years, two and a half years,
I think it's been almost just getting to a space
of being so in tune with one another. I've never
been in a ship like that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
So special.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, neither Colleen. I think, yeah, like,
you know, just having that person where you can be
silly with and d mass from some of these colonial
spaces which are so violent and demand so much us.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Where you can just be. You know, it's a beautiful,
beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
And I wish that for everybody in their own ways,
not just in partnership, but in community, in family, just
to have those beautiful spaces. Wow, we've traversed so much.
I feel like this is like Australian story. This is
your life sort of, every single minute of it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
I mean, there's no neat.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Way to close this up because it's still evolving. There
there's no like you know, crescendo where we pull it
all together. But I guess my sort of final question
for people who would be listening who have heard your
beautiful story.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
You know, I'd love to just sort of ask.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
You, what do you think the biggest lesson of this is?
And and what are you going to call more into
next year? Because that might be sort of someone who's
listening might need to take away some of that beautiful
advice for themselves in their own ways of course, But yeah,
biggest lessons and from last year, and yeah, aside from

(01:15:11):
slowing down and doing more sitting.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah, what sort of how do you want to move
with that intention this year?

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
There is a lot We've covered a lot. Being present
in your knowing and being That's something that I'm trying
to practice more of, and I think that everything unfolds
from there, like being present in relationships, being present in

(01:15:46):
what we have and what we know, being present in
the world. Like there's just that there's a presentness and
awareness that I feel like I've I lost for a
few years, not in like an extreme way, but trying
to be in all these spaces at once or trying
to sit in the with nanol. I'm also checking an email,
like all these things that have been so fractured in

(01:16:10):
my being, and that stillness that comes from being present
and aware, like I just when I think about our
old people and like I've been Yeah, as I said
at the start of this, like feeling more in relationship
to my ancestors than ever. I'm not perfect at it,

(01:16:31):
but I think that there's this big learning that I've
had around the sitting and the presentness that comes, and
how powerful that is. And it's just such a juxtaposition
from the colonial thinking and mindsets and world that we're
thrown in and up against. Yeah, I think it can
be an antidote to a lot of it. I think

(01:16:53):
it's a powerful way to grow in ourselves and just be.
And the world would look very different if everyone was
present and aware in their knowing and knowledge and selves.
So I'm trying my best to practice that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
I love that. I love that so so much. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
I guess we're trying to undo centuries of harm right now,
aren't we, And so coming back to what we have
always known, and like you say, it's such a powerful
antidote to that harm. Is to Yeah, being present in
your knowing and being and knowing that that is enough.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
You know, that is the thing. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
We've chased these sort of elusive dragons to try to
get ourselves out of the struggle. But coming back to
a place where, you know, sitting with the sun, sit
next to the river, just sitting with ourselves, our family,
our kin, our community.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
That is that's enough.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
And yeah, what a special sort of way to sort of, yeah,
bring this to some sort of clothes for people who were.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Starting their new years.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
And when we allow ourselves that time to be present
with ourselves, it only gives us more capacity to be
of service and love to our people. So you know,
we we sort of you know, like everything self care
has been co opted, but there's a relationship between the
self and the collective here that is so so potent.

(01:18:26):
So yeah, wow, something for us to all think of.
Thank you so much for being here, sharing so vulnerably
just allowing us to sort of yeah, unpack more about
you and of course some of the deadly things you do.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
So much love for you, sis, So thank.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
You, Thank you for having me on what a great
yarns and riching.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
Well, thank you, thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
You mob, if you are vibing this season and yarning up.
Then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
get your podcast US from to show us some love,
rate and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and
give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot Caroline Coow

(01:19:16):
dot com dot au

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Rona Glynn-McDonald - Storytelling, Protecting Energy, and Honouring First Nations Wisdom

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rona Glynn-McDonald - Storytelling, Protecting Energy, and Honouring First Nations Wisdom