Damon Herriman and The Graduate

Australian actor Damon Herriman loves Dustin Hoffman but had never seen his breakout film debut, The Graduate, until now.

Was Damon seduced by Mrs Robinson?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good day, Pete Halley, you're here, Welcome to you ain't
seen nothing yet?

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The Movie Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:03):
We're our chat to a movie lover about a classic
or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching
until now. And today's guest actor legend Damon Harriman, all below.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
I want to stay here with you. He's the jobble,
my hate, snake, shucked my hail.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
They couldn't be having a right.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
So you ain't seen nothing yet?

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, well, well quite sim Lee.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
I don't think I have recorded an episode with anyone
that has this many screen credits from TV to film.
Damon Harriman has done so much. He first appeared on
our screens in nineteen seventy six. And we're not talking

(01:22):
about a guy who's eighty. By the way, I'm forty nine.
I think he's like basically the same age. He might
be a year or two older than me. He first
appeared in The Sullivans in nineteen seventy six, and from
then on he has appeared in all the Ossie TV
shows that we know, and from Carson's Lord, the Flying Doctors,
e Street, Brides of Christ, or Saints Water, rat Stingers,

(01:46):
you name it. He's constantly working here and abroad. He
there's not one type of role that he gravitates too.
He can do it all. Oh and the project i'm
really looking forward to seeing is later this year Better Man,
the Robbie Williams biopic, which I've heard little perhaps details,
but I think it's going to be something extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's not going to be a normal biopic.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
I don't know who Damon's He won't tell me who
he's playing in. But he's got that. He's got the
TV series of Kevin Bacon. He's filming in Atlanta at
the moment. He's just wrapped that up. He's always working.
Oh body love him. He's funny, he's generous, he's joyful.
I'm stoked to be hanging with Damon Harriman today.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
I'm Damon Herriman. My three favorite films are Good Fellas Well.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
What's really funny is the fucking make jab Away and
Sea Caucus. I'm in the middle, little fucking weed, slaying down.
He comes OVI, what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (02:43):
I said, I'm wrestling here, you're resting.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
I got a fucking beach in a park Because I
know I'm resting.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'm wrestling. They pulled me in.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
It's taking all kinds of questions, you know, list and
he says, oh, so, what are you gonna tell us,
tough guys?

Speaker 3 (02:55):
My usual zero nothing. This is final tap.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
Play or I mean you actually play all these or
I played them and I cherished him.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
This is at the top of the heat right here.
There's no question about it.

Speaker 5 (03:07):
Look at this, and you see I didn't come here,
Justice Administrator, Doctor Brewster.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I came to this hospital to settle in an old score.
What's sport. I don't know that my father was a
brilliant man. He built this hospital. What you don't know
is that to his family he was a merciful tyrant.
But until today I had never seen the graduate. May

(03:33):
I ask you a question, what do you think of me?

Speaker 6 (03:38):
What do you mean? You've known me nearly all your life.
You must have formed some opinion of me.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Well, I always thought that you were a very nice person.

Speaker 6 (03:49):
Did you know I was an alcoholic? What did you
know that?

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Okay, I should be going sit down, Benjamin, missus.

Speaker 5 (04:03):
Robinson, if you don't mind my saying so, this conversation
is getting a little strange.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Now. I'm sure that mister Robinson will be here any
minute now what my.

Speaker 6 (04:10):
Husband will be back quite late. You should be gone
for several hours.

Speaker 7 (04:16):
Oh my god, pid oh no, Missus Robinson.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oh no, what's wrong? Missus Robson. Didn't I mean you
didn't expect what I mean? You didn't really think I
do something like that? Like? What what do you think?

Speaker 5 (04:31):
Well?

Speaker 3 (04:31):
I don't know. For God's sake, Missus Robson, here we are.
You got me into your house, you.

Speaker 7 (04:38):
Give me a drink, you put on music. Now you
start opening up your personal life to me and tell
me your husband.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Won't be home for hours.

Speaker 5 (04:44):
So, Missus Robinson, you're trying to seduce me, aren't you.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
It's nineteen sixty seven and Benjamin Braddock Dustin Hoffman in
his film debut, has just graduated from college. He has
his home future in front of him, but he just
can't quite see it yet. Benjamin, in his own words,
feels disturbed about things at his graduation party, thrown by
his parents with their friends. Ben is confronted in his

(05:15):
bedroom by Missus Robinson, the excellent excellent Anne Bancroft, who
has the graduate firmly in her sights. Her seduction attempts
are fully realized after she convinces Ben to drive her home,
then walk her into her house, then have a drink,
then fetch her purse. Yes, Missus Robinson knows how to
catch her prey. The indecent proposal, if you Will is

(05:38):
taken up by Ben as he gives in to the
charms and skills of the older woman. In reality and
Bancroft is less than six years older than Dustin Hoffman.
But when he begins falling for Missus Robinson's daughter, Elaine
Katherine Ross, things get murky for the anxiety ridden young man.
Mike nichols second film, the highest grossing film of nineteen

(05:59):
six seven, nominated for seven Oscars, winning one for Mike
Nichols's masterful direction, with the familiar sounds of Simon and
Garfunkel playing throughout the Graduate, is considered an American classic.
Damon Harriman, did you ever consider getting into plastics?

Speaker 3 (06:21):
I did it. I did it after watching this film.
I don't know what I was thinking, because obviously they
are the way of the future.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
As that character says, it is actually funny.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Apparently plastics kind of exploded not long after this film,
and people have kind of given it some kind of
you know, Pat in the back, maybe.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Helping credit for the for the rise of plastics.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's that's absolutely right, mate. Thank you so much for
joining us. You are always busy working on film and TV.
You're joining us from la You just finished wrapping up
a series of The Great Kevin Bake, and you've shot
something film here in Melbourne, which sounds extraordinarily exciting. Get

(07:04):
you're in the Bike Riders at the moment. We got
so much coming up. But I want to I want
to talk about why you hadn't seen The Graduate because
I think of you as a student of cinema. You know,
you've been, You've been your whole life has been in
showbiz for one of a better term, and I believe

(07:25):
you're a big Dustin Hoffman fan. I think we've spoken
about that. Why has this one been left off?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah? So why has this one being left off the list?

Speaker 3 (07:33):
I have no good excuse. You know, when I think
about my favorite performances by male actors in movies, you know,
Tulsi Kramer Versus Kramer rain Man to name but three.
I don't know how I never saw The Graduate because
you know, especially in my my twenties. And we could

(07:55):
talk about this today too, But just I was reading
up on this film and how the people, younger people
who watched this film became obsessed with it in a
way that older people at the time didn't. And I remember,
not that I was in my twenties and the sixties,
but I was in my twenties and the nineties, and
it was a it was a big movie amongst my friends,

(08:18):
like it was. It was a very popular movie amongst
my friends. I don't know how I missed it, honestly,
I guess I just never got around to it. It
wasn't on Telly, and I never never hired the DVD.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
So, And what did you know about it? Did you?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
The music was the music that you know obviously it
Dustin Hoffman was the music in part?

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Definitely, yeah, one hundred percent. I definitely knew about the
Simon and Garfuncle music, big Simony Garthfuncle fan, so I
knew that was part of the film. I knew it
was a Mike Michaels film, and I'd seen and loved
other films of his. I knew the kind of classic quotes,
so that you know, Missus Robinson and you're trying to
seduce me, and actually watching the film was interesting seeing

(09:04):
that there are those quotes from I think, isn't it
Madonna's Vogue that has her saying I'm not trying to
seduce you? Is it Vogue?

Speaker 1 (09:12):
I think you're right, and this is a massively parodied movie.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
It's right up there.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
I mean, I think that seems to the multiple episodes.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
But for some reason, my assumption had always been, until
I saw the film, the Dustin Hoffman's character was already
dating Missus Robinson's daughter from the beginning of the film.
I don't know if that's just how it had presented
when I'd ever seen clips of it, but I had
thought and perhaps the kind of seduction of the of

(09:44):
the mum. I had assumed that he was being seduced
by the mother of his girlfriend, and of course, when
you see the movie, his relationship with her doesn't come
too much later.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, let's let's come back to the Graduate because
I cannot wait to chat to you about I had
seen it a couple of times, but not for a while.
I enjoyed watching it again. But let's talk about your
three favorite films. Great films. I've seen them all and
they wor very highly on my list too. Let's start
with Good Fellas, the late great ray Leonta, of course.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
With Joe Pesky and Robert de Niro.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
This is you just watched this over and over again
and never get sick of it?

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, you can, and I haven't seen it for a while,
but I did used to watch it over and over again.
I actually saw it at the movies when it came
out and was immediately blown away. And then it became
one of those movies that you know, as you do
often in your twenties, when you get obsessed with a
particular film, you watch it over and over again, and

(10:41):
I certainly did that with this one. I became obsessed
with Joe Peshi. I didn't really know his work prior
to that. I know he'd done a lot of stuff,
and of course he's been in other Scorsese movies, but
this I thought his performance in that film was mind
blowingly good, one of very well deserved Oscar for it. Yeah,
and you know, kind of kind of crazy to think

(11:01):
back now that that film did not win Best Picture
or Best Directed that year, beaten by Dancers with Wolves,
bothal Warves. And that's a film that I also loved
at the time, although I don't think I've seen since,
and it's not a film you really ever hear anyone
speak about when Goodfellas has constantly brought up, you know.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
It's funny, and you can't judge that in the moment,
can you. You can't judge, you know, how this film
is going to be remembered when you have basically, you know,
six months maybe to process something, maybe even less time
for Academy voters to put their votes in.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
And I'd love Danza with Wolves as well.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
And I have watched it again and I really admire
you know, I was very much into Let's I'm happy
to spend three hours in the cinema at that time.
Loved that was that time there were so many epics around.
There was a Brave Heart was you know, around the
same time, and you know, and I was all in
on those movies and was a big Untouchables fan, so
Kevin Costain was in my hitting zone.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
It was very excited for it.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Where it came out. I kind of think about it.
I can't imagine my fifteen year old being excited about
Dances with Wolves, like if it came out now, is
there a ninety second version of Dancing Wolves that we
can put on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Perhaps, I'm not sure if there is.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
And it's a funny one. It is, and it probably
still does hold up as a great film, but for
some reason, it's not a film people talk about watching
over and over again, and it's not a film that
often comes up in people's favorites as a reason.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
And it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
It doesn't come down to running time either, because the
good good falancies is, you know, there's not much change
in three hours. I thinks like two and a half hours.
He fails to have a guess.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Right, Yeah, Yeah, it's definitely long. I can't remember how long.
It's definitely a long movie.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
It's so good and you're a Joe Pesh's so he's
such a unique actor. I mean, he's just so he's
so volatile in this. You know that the scenes of
Spider is just.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
The humor and the danger he brought, you know. At
the same time, you know, like everyone still kind of
quotes the funny funny how the restaurant's scene I have
a feeling was largely improvised, but that you know, he's
just so incredibly watchable. Talk about having screen presence, but
also just incredibly good, like you know, you don't you

(13:22):
don't know, you don't see the acting. You just you
absolutely believed he was that guy is as little and
you were terrified of him.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, he's a little He's a little Volcano's Napoleon and
he is that when you when you look at your
you know, your peers and the actors who you love
working with or even just watching. Is it Is it
the ability to play like you said, humor and volatility
or or you know, comedy and drama so closely entwined

(13:50):
that makes some actors rise above others.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
I definitely, I definitely like that, you know, I mean,
it's not like if someone can't do that that I
think any less of them are. I'm not as impressed,
but I think that there is a little something extra
about the actors who can do that. You know, Philip
Sama Hoffman's another one that comes to mind. You can
do that, Meryl Street. You know, there are a bunch
who can do it. But yeah, in terms of really

(14:16):
really combining that thing of absolute frightening, real, you know, truthful,
fearful performance that you're actually laughing as well because of
the way he's done and there are so many scenes
in that movie where he is doing really macabre, violent things,

(14:38):
but he's doing it in a way that I'm sure
he knows is funny. It is funny, and I'm sure
he's making it funny, but he never is playing for laughs.
He's not doing a gag. It's just something about the
way he's doing it actually makes me want to see
it again. He's so good and it's a shame we
don't see more of him, you know, other than the Irishman.

(14:59):
I didn't a matter of retirement for the Irish one.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
I think, Yeah, and he I think he appeared in
a sitcom recently with Pete Davidson. Yeah, he did a
TV series and Joe Pesci I think was his godfather
or uncle or something. Is quite you know, he was funny,
he was funny and yeah, but I agree, it's a
pity we don't see a whole lot more of him.

(15:23):
Let's speaking of violence and humor. Put together Spinal Tap
one of the funniest films of all time. The violence,
of course, comes mainly through combusting drummers, but this was
a moment that's kind of changed cinema in a way.
He kind of you know, to my mind, kind of
brought the monumentary. I know, Ricky Gervais or Christopher Guests
have kind of credited.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Spinal tap. Well, Christopher guess what was part of it.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
But Ricky Gervais is credited this move, but you know,
bringing the mockumentary format to him at least.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I'm I'm pretty sure this
was pretty close to being the first micumentary. I think
there might be something before it that was considered to
be a mockumentary, but it's one of the very first,
and certainly one of the most famous, if not the
most famous mockumentary feature film. I stumbled across this film

(16:14):
on TV when it was in the middle of the
scene where he's showing his guitars, and I thought I
was watching a documentary about a rock band I never
heard of. It would have been when I was maybe
sixteen or something. And if this film was not famous,
I mean it probably was amongst bands and things, but
it had not reached the heights of fame that it

(16:35):
did a few years later. And I remember watching it
and then starting to laugh at this guitarist the way
he was talking, you know, because he was so earnest
and kind of talking this episode way, and then when
I got up to these amps go up to eleven,
I was just so confused because I was laughing and
then going how how how can there be amps that

(16:57):
got to eleven? And also the that this guy thinks
that makes them one louder. I mean, it's so genius
and I can't remember how long hopefully not too long
before I realized I was watching a comedy, But then
I kind of became obsessed with it, and I used
to watch this film. This is probably Spinal TAP's probably

(17:18):
one of the films I've watched the most in my life.
I haven't seen it for a good while, but I'm
incredibly excited that they've just shot a sequel.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
You know about this people, Yes, I'd forgotten about it, actually,
but yes, that is that is right, there's now So
you're excited and not nervous, you know, how do you
feel about it?

Speaker 3 (17:35):
I mean, I'm way more excited than nervous. Look, it
could go horribly wrong, but it's all the same three leads.
It's Rob Reiner directing and playing the documentary filmmaker. Again.
They've got people like Paul McCartney and Elton John and
getting like, you know, special appearances. It's probably not going

(17:56):
to be as good as the first one. How could
it possibly, You know that that film was just so perfect.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
But to live in that world with those characters for
you know, ninety minutes, I think is going to be
a joy.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
You know, the they did the DVD.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Commentary, it might it might have been now twenty years
ago or fifteen years ago, but I thought that was
just as funny as as as the film it was.
Those guys haven't stopped being funny. So I think that's
that's the the glimmer of hope that yeah. And I
think sometimes we've seen recently where sequels have been you know,

(18:32):
have come after a long time. Maybe Maverick is probably
the best example of not just rushing out with a sequel,
but having the right idea at the right time.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
I just saw the.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Little jews coming up about after the original or whatever.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Absolutely it's because actual left apparently I haven't watched it yet,
but it's not too bad.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
I hear on on that Flix.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Imagine making a movie and going, you know what, in
like thirty years, we should have a sequel to this.
It's such an absurdum of time. But then, of course,
once you get to that moment, it doesn't feel absurd.
It feels awesome, Like everyone gets excited. Well, usually you
get excited. I don't think, you know, there's certain classics
you don't necessarily want to have a sequel to, But
Spinal Tap, I'm ready. I think they've waited long enough.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, well they probably can't wait too much long ago.
They want Mick Jagger involved, and certainly they want Keith
Riches or he will live forever.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
We do know that.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So I love the way you watched it, Like I
wish I had a found spinal Tap accidentally and even
for a period of time thought I was watching a documentary.
I suspect if you would have told the everyone involved
that that's how you first watched Spinal Tap, they would
get a kick out of that.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
I think that's almost a dream for them. I suspect.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, well, that's how good the acting, isn't it. You know?
I mean that's the other thing I say. It's one
of my favorite films because I love it from just
an entertainment point of view, But the acting is in
it is with it, like the the you know, Davidson
Hubbins and Nigel Tufnel. When you see them sitting there

(20:07):
completely deadpan answering questions as a rock band, it feels
like a rock band interview, Like it feels like a
hair metal rock band interview. You're not sort of doing
a sketch comedy version. They're doing it as if it
was real, and which makes the comedy work even better
because they're saying such ridiculous things. And if they'd said
those ridiculous things in and over the top, you know,

(20:28):
sketch comedy kind of way, it wouldn't be as funny.
It's the fact that he says, you know, this plays
that beautiful piano piece that's all kind of soft and lovely,
and this is what's this called. This piece is called
lick my louve pump, and it's are we allowed to

(20:49):
say that on.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Your Oh you can say whatever you like, yeah, the
video of the podcast.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
But you know the fact that that comes out of
this beautiful melonic ballad, and he says it in a
way that.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Is it would be so hard not to You wonder
how many takes they did, and but you kind of
feel like, I suspect not as many as we may suspect.
I think they they were committed. They were committed to
the moment, like all good actors. Let's talk about your
third favorite film starring Dustin Hoffman. This All of these

(21:23):
three films have been represented in People's Top three films
over the one hundred and sixty plus episodes of You
and See Nothing Yet, but TOUTSI is an absolute classic.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
I think it may well be certainly top five best
written screen comedies of all time. I think, I mean,
I haven't seen all of them, but what I've seen,
and I've spoken to a lot of other people who
feel that way too. I think the screenplay of this
is incredibly good. I know it now. Is it written

(21:56):
with Larry Gelbert who wrote the movie of Mash and
also used to work on The Sid Caesar Show with
people like Neil Simon and but I'm trying to think
of if it was just him, if it was co written,
I can't remember. But directed by Sidney Pollack, who's amazing director,
Dustin Hoffman never been better. Bill Mahray's in there. Oh

(22:21):
and goodness, who's the Jessica Lange is so incredible. It's
and I actually watched it again. That is one of
the ones I have watched again recently at first time
in a long time. And yeah, there's no there's no
wasted scene in that movie. Every single scene does something
to move it forward, whether it's moving the plot forward

(22:43):
or just moving the characters relationships with each other forward,
or how much you get to know about them, and
it's it is close to perfect and still really funny,
you know. Yeah, Yeah, it's I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's it's an absolute tracker. And yeah, I love Dust
the half a minute Jessica Lang. I feel like he's almost
like the heart of that movie. She's great Sidney Pollock,
isn't it as well?

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Sney the director? It plays his agent, Yes, brilliantly.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, he's so good Sidney Pollock three great films. Are
always happy to talk about those three films. But now
let's get talking about the film we here to talk
about today, Damon Harriman.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Okay, let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
This is the one. It's the big one. It's a
big film. This one highest grossing film in ninett sixty seven.
Mike Nichols wins Best Director for It is directed by him, obviously,
written by Buck Henry, starring the Great Dustin Hoffman and
Bancroft and Catherine Ross, Damon Harriman.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Did you enjoy The Graduate?

Speaker 3 (24:10):
I really enjoyed The Graduate. This is a tricky one
for me because I only watched this today, so I
probably finished it about three hours ago, and I'm liking
it more as each hour passes. It is one of
those movies that, because it's such a classic and I
don't have the investment of childhood nostalgia, it's almost impossible

(24:35):
for it to live up to the height, you know
what I mean. And I think, you know, there are
films like The Graduate that I watched, you know, as
a kid. Watch lots of old movies as a kid,
and I still they all hold a special place in
my heart. I think because of the nostalgia that came
with him, Like I guess something like Sound of Music,

(24:57):
you know, which was always on TV as a kid,
And I think it's a great film, but it's also
got that thing of remembering watching it when you're a kid.
I imagine that people who did watch this many times
over there over the years from their teens or twenties onwards.
I can absolutely see why they adore it. And I

(25:18):
really liked it I really liked it. I just think
that I wish I'd had that moment of seeing it
fresh in my twenties. And it's interesting, Actually, when I
was sort of reading about it, I stumbled across this
article that said the film critic, the American film critic,
Roger Ebert, reviewed it in his twenties and he gave

(25:40):
it four stars, and then he reviewed it twenty five
years later and gave it three stars, and he actually,
did you know, they showed the side by side reviews,
and he had he kind of explained what you know,
much better than I'm doing now. But that thing of
having seen it in his twenties and completely relating to

(26:01):
Dustin Hoffman's character and seeing the kind of awkward outsider
kid who's trying to make it through the world, and
as opposed to watching it all or when you're not,
you're not relating to that character in the same way.
And I absolutely can see why so many of my
friends were obsessed with it in our twenties because they

(26:24):
were sort of watching it through the Dustin Hoffman's character's eyes, you.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Know, Because I think I think Rosalie it makes a
point that, yeah, he was watching it and Dustin Hoffman
was the hero of the story. And now when you
watch it as a as an older person, you're actually
going to see it from Missus Robinson's point of view,
and I think he's one of the headlines or biolines
was the congratulations, Missus Robinson.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
It's taken you, you know, forty years, but you.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Know we understand your point of view now, or we
you know, we see that you are now the hero
of the story, which you know, it does depend what
ages see and and who you gravitate towards as characters,
because they were all flawed characters, I think, and I
think this is one of the joys of the movie
that you are seeing people make terrible choices the whole

(27:16):
way through. Yes, I think, I think that's what ends
up what the movie is actually about. I don't want
to get to the end too quickly, so we made
this kind of slightly uh part that but as it
doesn't Hoffmann fan, what did you what did you make
of his debut performance?

Speaker 3 (27:37):
He's fantastic, I mean, and I can see why that
film would have kickstarted his career the way it did,
you know, and just really seeing that that that new
style of acting, that was coming, you know. I mean,
obviously people like Brando had done it many years earlier
on the Waterfront and so forth, but there was still

(27:58):
a lot of that old school acting going on around
the time this film is made. But Dustin Hoffman certainly
wasn't doing that. He's sort of really you could really
see that sort of modern style of naturalism that we
got very used to in the seventies and beyond in
his performance.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Was a bit of a changing of the guard.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
In the Oscar nominations that I think Spencer Tracy was
up for it for Guess Who's Coming for Dinner? Rod
Steiger wins in the Head of the Night. It's a
great movie that had that was the big winner on
the night of the sixty eight Oscars, but Paul Newman
and Warren Beady and Dustin Hoffman, so there's a bit
of a changing, you know, of the guard. And in
the women's category, Catherine Hepburn wins I for I Guess

(28:39):
Who's Coming for Dinner? But you got Fade done Away,
you know, and Bancroft, and you got Augie Hepburn as well.
So there's the mismash of the new Hollywood and the
older Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
And it is. It's so interesting me. He's twenty nine
in the film playing a twenty year old he turns
twenty one. You buy it? I totally bought it.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, I was gonna ask about because you watch a
movie and Hollywood's famous to doing this, of course, you know,
and you what's grease and everyone looks mismatched and you know,
the wrong the wrong ages. But so yeah, I didn't.
I didn't really think of it. I think I think
Anne Bancroft is like thirty five, thirty six.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
She's thirty five playing the older woman, and he's six
years younger than her, and she's I think eight or
nine years older than Catherine Rossho's playing her daughter.

Speaker 6 (29:28):
She is.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
That's another thing I never realized. I assumed that she
was at least twenty years older than him based on
the whole concept of the film. But yeah, I mean
it's sort of you sort of buy it. I guess
it's one of those things they tell you this is
your girlfriend's this is you know, his girlfriend's mother, and
you sort of buy that that's the case. And she
she is actually for me, is the performance of the film.

(29:50):
I thought Anne Bancroft was amazing. Yeah, every moment he
was on screen. I haven't seen her in a lot
of stuff. I couldn't probably name another Anne Bancroft film.
I think she might be in The Old Men, but
I'm sure that's not one of her more famous credits.
But I just thought she was sensational, Like absolutely every

(30:11):
moment she was on screen, I loved it.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
There are some moments where there's not a lot of
dialogue for her, where she's at her.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Best almost and those quieter moments.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Is a great scene in the hotel where Dustin Huffman
or Benjamin Bretett wants to talk, you know, and they
had that conversation and Benjamin kind of exposed himself to
being quite naive. I mean, I think we already think
he's naive and immature in the ways of the world,
but this kind of exposes him because you know, she

(30:42):
takes him through he wants to talk, and she does
end up offering you know, a lot in that they
got pregnant, that's why they got married. They live in
separate you know, they sleep in separate rooms or certainly beds,
and and she you know, she was at you she's
at college studying art and then she tells him that

(31:04):
she has to leave you to the bay Catherine Ross's
character Elaine, and Benjamin's reaction is to say, oh, I
guess you must have just lost interest over the years
in art. And she's facing the other way and you
just see her whole history and kind of play out
in a moment on her face.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
It's kind of stunning.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
The framing of the camera in this film is really beautiful,
whether it's a still locked off frame or the camera's
moving or even zooming. Sometimes it's a beautiful looking film.
You know, you're really and I've forgotten the name of
the cinematographer, but he's some guy that had been a

(31:45):
cinematographer since the twenties, since the nineteen twenties.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Wow, and he.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Did he? I think he shot ben her like he
shot a lot of stuff over the years, so he
was an older guy. And yeah, I read that he
was kind of quite challenged by Mike Nichols in this film.
The way he wanted it shot was very unusual.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Robert Stez Roberts is his name, So I googled that.
That was off the top of the head. Yeah, I mean,
Nichols is famous for his framing and he is an
absolute master. I mean that, I mean, Who's Afraid of
Virginia Woolf which we just covered recently on this and
I'd seen the play starring the wonderful Cat Stewart in

(32:33):
that and so we were really keen to see the
film and it's it's an amazing film. And that was
that was Mike nichols first film. So this is his
second film. And it's funny because that's based on the
play obviously, and there's so much it's very wordy, lots
and lots of talking. You know that he has to
cover off where this is based on a book, he

(32:53):
can kind of pick and choose a little bit more
about how much he wants the characters to say.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
And I think he's very.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
He's got this. I think that doesn't happen. Took a
little while to get used to it. This minimalist style
of acting as well, which you know it is not
We spoke about the styles of acting and this is,
I guess a new style that then Dustin took a
little while to kind of get used to this, you know,
less is more style of acting. But the yeah, yeah,
the framing. I mean there's one scene, let's have a

(33:19):
listen to it. You obviously won't be able to see
the framing through your your speakers, but it's worth going
back and looking at this. For the framing, it's one
of the great I think focus pools in Hollywood. This
is as Elaine finds out, so we have Benjamin Braddock
in the rain. It's also great when she hops in
the car because you kind of see her dress. This

(33:41):
is all great framing. And he's waiting for Elaine, so
he expect it's Elaine, but it's real that it's actually
Missus Robinson whose name his first name is never.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Mentioned in the movie for those who weren't sure.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
And they drive off and I'm going to expose you.
He runs back drenched in wet. There's a lot of water,
a lot of moisture in this movie, you may have noticed.
And he runs upstairs and we'll pick the scene up there.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
I'm not dressed yet. I said, go over the back
fence of each find the corner. What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (34:29):
I have to tell you something.

Speaker 6 (34:30):
What is it?

Speaker 3 (34:31):
That woman, that woman, that older woman that I told
you about, the merry woman that wasn't just some woman?

Speaker 6 (34:37):
What are you telling me?

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Benjamin Will you just telling me what this is all about.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
Oh no, oh my god, please get out of here,
cry get out, goodbye, Benjamin.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
So there's a few things in that scene. I think
one is extraordinarily performed. There's the focus pull on I'm
talking about is you would have heard the characters not
speaking for a while. That is Missus Robinson behind Elaine
in Ben's eye line. Ben looks over Elaine's shoulder, sees her.
Elaine is upset, Elaine sees that she works it out,

(35:27):
and the focus pull on it is just, you know,
that's all the good things that focus pulls can do.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Maybe the slowest focus pull I think I've ever seen
like it's it stays out of focus for ages like
it's it's it is switching focus. But it's so slow
as she turns back to camera. As Elaine turns back
to camera, and we're about to see her reaction to
just finding out her mother is the person he's having
an affair with. Yeah, it's obviously a very conscious decision

(35:56):
to make it as slow as that, because I've never
seen anything like that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's it's so good and and you know, and and
for those who don't think about these things, you're not
supposed to think about these things at all unless you
are doing a podcast about them and you want to
really think about them or you want.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
To dive on them.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
But it involves, you know, I think ideally and my
n because he's so good at knowing when to like
when does to have the camera still, when to move it.
He doesn't overdo things, it seems. Everything seems deliberate, deliberate,
deliberate and really well chosen. And there are times where
he just lets the camera sit still, but he needs
to get the actors in the right frame, so you

(36:33):
have Dustin Hoffman kind of this almost pulling Catherine Russ
away from the door. But it's it's it's done deliberately,
so obviously he gets the site line into uh into
missus Robinson and I love the line. And again this
just shows Benjamin's immaturity when she goes no, no, no, no,

(36:55):
don't know and he says don't cry, like as if
like she's angry. He hasn't even read that she's angry
and pissed off. He's trying to console her. It's no,
this is not you don't get to do that now
like you've been you've been you've been having sex with
her mother. You've been having this affair, don't know. This

(37:16):
is not like a moment where you get to console me.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah, No, it's it's incredible, as you know, as we're
talking about this, it is incredible to believe that this
was the highest growing engrossing film of nineteen sixty seven,
just because there is no way a film like this
would be the highest grossing film of twenty twenty four. Like,
there's just no way. It's a drama for a start,
and it's not a big Oppenheimer drama. It's a small

(37:44):
family drama.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's a drama comedy.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
You I call it a drama comedy. Yeah, some people
probably would call it a comedy. I don't think I
would call it a I think it's a drama comic drama.
Like it's got so much of both in kind of
equal measure, and it's not really not even the comedy
has not really laughed out loud comedy. It's more kind
of smile comedy.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Do you think I was gonna ask you? Literally had
the question do you think this film's funny? Before I
ask you that question, there's one element I want to
point out this scene when he leaves, it leaves the
bedroom and missus Robinson says, you know, leaning quite tight
against her. She's leaning against a white wall, which she

(38:25):
assumes he's the bedroom wall or the corridor wall. And
she says goodbye, Benjamin, and it just camera pans back
out and it's not like she's she's like a thousand
miles not a thousand miles away, but she looks like she's,
you know, ten meters away. All of a sudden, it's like,
that doesn't that's not the house. That's like a that's
like a spatial kind of you know, an an emotional kind.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Of journey playing.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, like I thought that was again just extraordinary. And
I'll come back to another the montage that really blows
me away, which is when they first start having the affair.
But let's discuss while we're on it. Is this movie funny?
And what's funny about it? I mean, I think Dustin
Hoffman when he's playing Minimalists is really funny, even in

(39:12):
the movies like Little Fuckers and you know, like the
movies that you don't think of as he's I think
when he's allowed to play it, and.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Even in his dramas.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
I can I've never been able to pinpoint why, but
there's something about him that I find very funny.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Well, there's a sort of a hapless like. He's very
good at playing someone in a state of hapless distress. Yes,
you know, he does that. He could see a lot.
He does that in the Graduate a lot. Even in
Kramer Versus Kramer, which is certainly not a comedy. There
are moments, you know, where he's sort of arguing with

(39:51):
his kid about whether he can have ice cream or not,
and that's sort of funny because he's getting so worked up.
He does have a real skill at that. Yeah, is
it funny? You know, I'm just thinking now, maybe it's
accurate to say the first half of this film is funny,
and the second half is not like the first half
of the comedy, and the second half is the drama scenes. Yeah,

(40:12):
So the scenes where he's being seduced, you know, especially
the initial ones, which you know go on for quite
a while as one sort of sequence to night he
takes her home. His awkwardness is quite funny, like you know,
And there are some funny lines in it too. There

(40:33):
were lines that made me laugh out loud. One line
where where he doesn't seem to be into her, and
she says, do you find me undesirable? And he says,
oh no, missus Robinson, I think you're the most attractive
of all my parents friends. Just a great line.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
And I think him checking into the hotel is hilarious, Like.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
And it's not over the tobby.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
He's signing the signing form and he realizes he's signed,
and you know, Nichols doesn't go and get a close
up and signing his name, but we just realized he
signed his own name, and he puts it in his
pocket and he signs another.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Shuttles it tries one pocket that doesn't and he tries
another pocket. And so it's kind of a cardboard piece
of paper. So where it will he crumple easily?

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, I suspect that that cardboard is just like like
hanging in his jacket somewhere. It's not even it hasn't
even found a pocket, which I think's hilarious. And then
he asks about the car, if you have a car, yes,
I was in a bell boy yet oh no, there's
I only got a toothbrush.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
When he comes back and he's like, brush, yeah, no,
I mean it is.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
The first high. It's interesting, I guess because it ends
with the second half funny that you know, it ends
quite dramatic. It feels mostly like a drama. Towards the
end you sort of forget how much you have been
finding it funny at the start. There's another line I
loved when after he and missus Robinson have been sleeping
together for a while and he kind of complains that

(42:05):
all they do is get together and sleep, togain and
have sex. Basically, he says, can we maybe liven things
up with some conversation. It's just the idea that the
conversation is the the spicy bit, because all they do
is have sex.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well before, they've had sex in the hotel room and
he says, you know, when.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
We go see a movie, would you love to go
see a movie? You know?

Speaker 1 (42:29):
And she's not there to see a movie with him,
and there's the you know, the awkward kiss, and he
actually goes he coughs because she's smoking. He actually coughs
before he kiss her, and then he grabs he grabs
her breast, which was you know, certainly in these days,
will be a dangerous improv to try to pull off.
But he did that and Bancroft doesn't react to this

(42:52):
improvisation by Dustin Hoff and she just starts scrubbing like
there's a mark on the top. And he said he
found that so funny that she didn't react to him
awkwardly grabbing her breast and she was more interested in
the cleaning that he was about to break and laugh.
And he could see kind of see or hear Mike
Nichols kind of laughing. So he just turned around, walked

(43:14):
towards the back of the set, which is the wall,
and start of banging his head against the wall. And
this is all improv and then he's kind of come
back in this and this is that's the take that
that's in the movie. And he comes back and then
there's no cut. He comes back and they continue the
scene and there's still a fair bit left in the scene.
There's still some stuff going on.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
I can't believe that's improvised. That's well not improvise. He's
not even doing it in the scene from what you're saying,
he's just doing it is himself right to get to
get back in the scene. Yeah, well, intending for that
to stay in the movie wasn't do you think? No?

Speaker 2 (43:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Maybe he's waiting for Nichols the yell cut, but I'm
not sure. At some point they assume they pick up
the dialogue. I'm not sure if there's any more, if
there's any more verbal improvisation going on, or they just
pick up the line that that and Bancroft gives Hoffman
is was the line that was supposed to be in there,

(44:09):
But there's certainly the action was all improvised, and the
fact that come back into frame and into into you know,
on his marker where he needed to be he was.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
I'm going to.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
Watch that scene again the second we get off this podcast.
I'm so intrigued by that now.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
It's so good. And then when they go it's a
very funny moment.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
They go back to the hotel, he goes back with
Elaine and then everyone's calling him mister Gladstone.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yes, they all recognize him from all the times he's
been there having his affair with her mother.

Speaker 5 (44:43):
And.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
He when he first goes there and he goes into
the you know, the the hallia for example, the party,
and he says he's with them, and then he goes
and there he's like this kind of sums him up
and this is actually, again, this is great writing.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
He has no plan.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
He like, even when he says, yes, I'm with the
hell you Herriman party, whatever it was, he knows, like
he goes in there, and he doesn't even try to
work his way in. Really, he just pretty quickly tells them, no,
I don't Actually I'm not supposed to be here. I'm
I'm not. I'm just stilling for a friend. But he
knows that that's not gonna work. By the way, eagle

(45:20):
eyed fans have Bewitched, I'm not sure if you how
much Bewitched you watched Tiger.

Speaker 8 (45:24):
I am an eagle eyed fan of Bewitched, and I
sortly noticed the two characters standing next to each other.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
I was like, well it was Mike Nichols, a bit
Witched fan. How did that happen?

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Why isn't Samantha in there? Get Samantha in there? Bit
of Dicky York work him in there?

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Am I right?

Speaker 5 (45:40):
That?

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Can I test my memory? I think it's Aunt Clara
and Aunt Agatha.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
It's Aunt Clara and Esmarelda.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
As morealder, that's right? Who's on Agatha? Then? Is that
another one?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
That's another that's molder?

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah, an aunt or is she a cousin.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Or I think might have been cousins asmen was the
one closer to the camera and.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
The ones who's got that Clara's the one who's got
that amazing kind of cracky voice that whenever she turns
up randomly in something, she always does that same character
basically she spoke.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
But no, she's absolutely absolutely brilliant. So I think I
think when I watched it when I was younger, I
didn't necessarily see it as comedically as people you know,
sometimes do talk about it. But watching it again, I
really did enjoy it more comedically than I maybe did

(46:37):
the first couple of times I had watched it. But
I completely agree with you. I think most comedies are
like this, to be absolutely honest, like the comedy is
loaded up front and then particularly these days, for.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Example of that TUSI is very serious in the last,
certainly the last third.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, yeah, and one of those Richard Curtis films. Often
the chase happens in the last and there's always still
jokes in there, the race to the airport, and you know,
you might have a couple of little gags in there.
But yeah, I think most comedies are because if you
get halfway through a comedy, you just haven't laughed once,
but you know, you may not wait to laugh, you know,
thirty times. In the second half the scene the sequence

(47:15):
I really wanted to talk about, and this again, Mike Nichols,
I'm becoming obsessed with. This is the third month Nichols
film we've done for you and see nothing yet Who's
Afraid of Virginia for a couple of weeks ago with
Yon and and Cardal Knowledge we did with Kyra and Nicholson,
and that has Art Garf uncle in a leading role

(47:36):
with Jake Nicholson, so obviously there's a bit of a
relationship going on there. But the scene of where they
first start having sex, so in that hotel room, and
there's you know, like we spoke of this all this
you know, this is your first time and you know
he's affronted by that, you know, and that's all.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
I think.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
That's all very funny. The way that's played by Dustin
Hoffman and and Van Kroft. She she's knowing what she's doing.
She's poking the bear a little bit. But then I'll
try to run through it. Made some kind of scrappy
little notes, but I'm going to try to run through
the next kind of montage. So it goes black. He
shuts the door, turns off the light. It goes black.
We start hearing the sounds of silence.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Then he's in the pool. Okay, he gets out of
the pool. He puts his shirt on. He's still wet.
People have put shirts on when they're wet. They always
kind of freaks me out a little bit. I'm not
sure what anyway, he does that. He enters the house.
He goes to the door of the house. Then we
see him enter the room, the hotel room, in his shirt,
and then he goes to the bed, lies down on

(48:37):
the bed. Missus Robinson starts unbuttoning his shirt, caressing his chest,
and then it goes to a close up of Ben.
Then he gets up and closes the door. At one point,
and his parents are having you remember his parents are
having dinner, and he closes the door and he's in

(48:58):
his bedroom. He watches he's close up of him watching
I think TV, and he watches. There's somebody crossing back
and forth in the frame, and that's Missus Robinson. She's
getting dressed. He watches her to leave as he gets stressed.
He's back sitting up in his bed and he gets

(49:19):
a towel. He leaves his bedroom. He's at his house now.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
He goes to the pool. His mum watches him.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Dives into the pool and he's underwater and he leads
up onto this like this pool mattress and lands on
Missus Robinson as he comes as he comes up in
the lands on the mattress, and then we hear the
voice of his dad Ben, what's going on? And it's
just like the fact that you don't see any sex

(49:46):
take you know, take take place. But you know, but
you you follow this journey completely, you know what's going
on that he's not he's not doing anything to to
aid his future. He's just in this honeymoon period of
having sex with this old lady and receiving an education.

Speaker 8 (50:05):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean again, it just goes
to the skill of Mike Nicholas. What an incredible director.
And to think that was his second film, you know, yeah, yeah,
that is yeah, I mean it's funny. I don't know
if does this happen often that the more.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
We're talking about this, I'm wanting to see it again?
Do you find them? Your whole show is about people
who haven't seen films. Do you Finally? Often usually always
at the end of this, I just want to see
it again now.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yeah, usually always to be honest, and I always make
the point to our audience that I'm speaking to our
guests who sometimes I've seen a film a few times.
This movie, I've probably seen there five or six times,
including two this week, but you have just watched it
this morning. My guess is always just processing a film
for the first time that they've just seen. Like there
have been somebody who've come on and not really liked

(50:52):
the film, and then by the end going, actually, I'll
give it another go. I'll give it another go, because
this is what the podcast exists for. Like we have
this romantic note it will go see a movie and
hang out in a cafe or a bar afterwards and
actually chat about it. But I'm not sure about you, Daman,
but I often see movies by myself. You know, I'm
a comedian, you know, like at the eleven o'clock morning session,

(51:13):
you know, that's that's the one I like to go to.
And you know, sometimes I go see it with somebody else.
But sometimes it's an impulsive decision to go see a
film that day and haven't got time to rustle up anyone.
I just happily go by myself, and sometimes you don't
get to have that chat.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
So this is you know, this is what it was.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
And as I was sort of saying earlier, there is
something very different about seeing a classic for the first
time where I'm glad I've got that first one out
of the way now, so now I can actually watch
it again and sort of start to appreciate it without
that hanging over it, you know. Yeah, as I say,
like if you discover a classic when you're fourteen, it
doesn't have anything usually that built up. It's probably just

(51:53):
something your parents said, oh you should watch this, or
it happened to be on and you suddenly become obsessed
with it, and then it kind of builds up this
this history for you as the years go on. But
as I say, it's so hard with one like this,
which is so famous for being a classic, that I'm
glad I've got that one out of the way, And
the more I think about it now, the more I'm

(52:13):
looking forward to seeing it again.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, and when you watch it again, check out that sequence,
but also just check out and Bancroft didn't want to
be you know, have any nude scenes and so but
the way they cover it off, like when she kind
of strips down in that bedroom at a start, and
for the first seduction seduction attempt, there's these subliminal little

(52:35):
shots of you know, of her, you know, parts of
a body that's so kind of quick and and and
there's reflection in the photo frame a couple of times
there and then in the hotel room as well when
she's about to leave because they've had that argument. It's
it's it's so good one of the things. I really
I'm not sure if it's a good thing about the film,
and some people will see it as a weakness, but

(52:57):
we're not really sure if anyone's motivations really like and
it doesn't bother me for some reason where sometimes it might.
We're not sure why Ben changes his mind and the
sides to you know.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Take up the core.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
But I think we kind of understand that, you know,
a young man might do that, you know, it might
be a bit intimidated in the moment and then have
time to think about his parents harassing him about getting
a job. And think about his future, and he's like, nah,
I'm gonna I'm going to have some fun for a
little while.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
I might take that up.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
I think we kind of get that that might happen.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, I can believe that. And I guess for
her it's the kind of sexless, unhappy marriage that she's in.
The bigger one for me in terms of the biggest
one for me in terms of trying to find logic
in a motivation is just the fact that his obsession
with the Lane comes out of literally one date. Yes,

(53:54):
you know, it sort of plays out over a few
different scenes, but it's one night, you know, when they
go to the bars and then the Hamburger joint and
all that, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
It's one day date that he doesn't want to go on,
and he's is kind of oafish to her to begin with,
takes her to a strip club. And I know, you've
been trying to get nipple tassels back in vogue, not
only in cinema but in real life, Damon, for for
many years.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
So you've been, happy to say, really.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Working and and yeah, so's that moment she she kind
of he knows he's gone too far.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
She gets upset.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
There's there's some tears, and I guess you, I guess
Mike Nichols is hoping that you believe that he has
empathy for her. He sees her in maybe a different light.
He knows he's acting like a jerk. This is not
who he wants to be. I need to make it
up to this girl, and then perhaps you know, I mean,

(54:55):
people have fallen in love over at night.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
You know, it does happen.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
So although this is isn't this is? I mean, this
is I mean he decides to marry her based on
essentially that night. He says to his parents, I'm going
to marry Elaine. And look, it's it's not like it
took me out of the movie. But I think that's
only because it's a movie from nineteen sixty seven. I

(55:19):
don't think you could make a present day movie where
someone has a date and then, I mean, unless that
was the joke, unless the fact that they wanted to
get married after one day was the joke. But in
this film, it's sort of played out as that's kind
of a reasonable thing to want. It's met her once,
he's in love, and he's going to track her down
and convince her to marry him.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well there, let's have a listen to that scene, because
I think there's also some pretty talking about the film
being is it funny or not?

Speaker 2 (55:47):
I think this scenes also plays as quite funny as
it was.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Say that again, I'm going to marry Elaine Rabbinson.

Speaker 7 (56:02):
Well, well, well, what's happening? Ben says that he and
Elaine are getting married.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
I don't believe it, that's what he says.

Speaker 7 (56:13):
Right, I'm going up to Berkeley today.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
They come on, we got to call the Robinsons. We've
got something to celebrate. No, I think you want to
wait on that. They don't know. No, they don't. Oh, Ben,
did you decide all this about an hour ago? Wait
a minute, you talked to Elaine this morning. No, she
doesn't know about it. You mean she doesn't know that
you're coming up to Berkeley. No, actually she doesn't know
about us getting married yet. Well then did you two

(56:43):
talk to sever We haven't? You haven't, Ben? This whole
idea sounds pretty half baked. No, it's not. It's completely baked.
It's a decision I've made. Well, what makes you think
she wants to marry you? She doesn't. To be perfectly honest.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
She doesn't like me, and then and then the beautiful
pop of the toast was perfect, a nice touch. But
I think that plays I think really funny and doesn't
happen do such a great job, but just again that
being as minimal and small as possible.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Yeah, oh he does. I mean, in fact, you could
sort of tell listening to that scene, how you've kind
of got a couple of actors who are a little
older and doing more of an old school, very theatrical, Oh, Darling,
that's wonderful kind of style. And he's just like, yeah,
if she doesn't even like me, it's a very You

(57:41):
can see the two styles very clearly in that scene.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
But you also have like there's not much Katherine Ross,
I think, does you know enough? With not a lot?
We don't really know. We don't know much about her.
There's these data we don't know even what. Maybe I've
missed something, but we didn't even know what Dustin Hoffman
was studying, Ben was studying it.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
I don't think we do, but it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
It's kind of great because you kind of you're not
kind of it's not in your head about maybe you're
not trying to work out his future for himself. You know,
you're not trying to go maybe if he applied to this.
You just know he's a graduate. We all know what
it's like to, you know, come out of either high
school or college or university and kind of go what now?
And that's all. That's the only emotion we need to know,

(58:26):
And we don't. We don't know what Katherine Ross is studying.
We don't really do you think missus Robinson when she says,
do not date Elaine? Who is she protecting? Is she protecting?
Is she doing it for herself? Is she doing it
for Ben? Is she warning Ben about Elaine? Or is
she doing it for Elaine protecting her from Ben? Do
you have a vibe as to question.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
I've been wondering that. I mean, it sort of plays like,
I guess, a kind of a jealousy, like I wouldn't
want you know your mind, Or it also could play like.

Speaker 5 (59:05):
That.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
I realize how inappropriate that would be for my daughter to,
whether she found out or not, to be sleeping with
the man who's been sleeping with her mother. Yes, just
the general idea of that. I don't think she's I
don't think when because in the film she says it's
because he's not good.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Enough for her, right, that's right, Yes, that's how she
puts it.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
I don't, I don't. I didn't feel like she meant that.
But it's hard to know. It's a really good question because.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
They give us nothing to suggests any much warmth between
Catherine and her mother, Like there's very few shared scenes
of dialogue or you know, you don't. She's certainly not
happy when Benjamin comes over, understandably for the date, those
quiet scenes with her. I just think where she's, you know,

(59:59):
in the car and it's raining, and when he leaves
the bedgroom we spoke about before, and when he arrives,
and she's sitting on the things she's always wearing, by
the way, like you made those furs or zebra like
stripes to suggests she is predatory. But yeah, I think
I think she's so good. So I so okay. As

(01:00:21):
we get towards the end, I think this is one
of the great endings of all time, by the way,
So we obviously have the race to the church and
he finally and it gets a little bit uncomfortable for
I think, because you know, he does go to Berkeley
and there's the Weirds by the way, which I must

(01:00:42):
say i'd forgotten about. Where they're in the room together
in his room he's rented out at the university, and
Elaine informs him that her mother has told her that
man raped her.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Yeah. That was incredibly jarring, wasn't it. You're just like
what I mean, just hearing that word in that movie
seemed zo unexpected and certainly unexpected given that you've seen
what happened and it certainly wasn't the case. It certainly
makes you, you know, any kind of charm that missus
Robinson had earlier sort of falls away very quickly when

(01:01:20):
you hear she's accusing him of that when you've seen
quite well, if anything the other way around in those
interactions they had.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
It certainly does pop.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
And then you wonder you speak about Ben's you know,
flip and pivot as far as like, are not interested
to I'm going to marry you? Like, why doesn't Elaine
kind of go okay, I'm going to find more out
about this allegation before I decide to potentially marry entertained
the thought of marrying you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
That's a really good point because she doesn't know. She
just sort of takes his word for it, doesn't she.
I mean, we know as an audience what took place,
but she doesn't. And it is odd that she that
she not only contemplates that she's asking him not to leave,
even and then of course at the very end she
chooses him.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
That was one of the big kind of maybe it's
an era a time thing. As far as you know,
this was ninety sixty seven. We all know, you know,
you know, disgustingly rape, you know, sometimes was thrown the
word was thrown around more liberally. The act wasn't maybe
follow up the way it should have been. So yeah,

(01:02:24):
maybe it was it was considered I don't know, whimsical
or something.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I don't know what the word is.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Yeah, it's hard to know. I mean, I think in
the movie they're sort of suggesting that he gives a
convincing enough explanation of what really happened. But yeah, you're right,
in a real world scenario, there's no way for her
to know he's telling her the truth. So there are
a lot of I mean a lot of things of
that movie that you wouldn't make to that. I mean,

(01:02:52):
even just the that the Anne Bancroft character Missus Robinson
character would be very hard to have it film today,
you know, you know, it's it's very much gets away
with it purely because it's an old movie.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yeah, and that's not to do with necessarily her being
the older an older woman, and it has been you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Know not at all. No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
You're you're not saying that because Bulldurham and there's one
recently Don Hathaway.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
There's just just the way that you know, initially she's
very very sexually aggressive towards him and he's not not interested,
very clearly not.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
He's like she's locking him in his you know, he's
trapping him basically. But yeah, so there's a bit of
a stalking phase going on by Benjaminer. Then he gets
to the wedding. Let's have a quick listen to Eline
getting married.

Speaker 6 (01:04:02):
Where's that going? What's he doing there?

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
It is?

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
So then a fight breaks out.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
She decides she sees like the screaming phases of her parents,
the angry faces of her parents, decides she's going to
go with ben There's a fight, bus out. They use
the crucifix to kind of steer them away, then lock
the doors and they run off on the bus. If
you have a specially, it's supposedally be quite sweet, but

(01:04:38):
then you it turns a bit bitter by the long shot,
the length of time that Mike Nichols stays on. Dustin
Huffman and Catherine Ross, what do you make of the
ending and what was it saying?

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
I took it to be that because they sit, you know,
in this bus, and they look like it just married,
happy couple, you know, because she's in them. They're not married, obviously,
she's in the wedding dress, and they're all laughs and smiles,
and the laughs sort of die down and the smiles
sort of die down, and as you say, the shot
holds for quite a while and their expressions start to

(01:05:17):
become sort of more neutral and then slightly troubled. Perhaps
I'm sure of what's just happened and what the consequences
of that decision are going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
I completely agree, and I think, I mean, the Sounds
of Silence is playing, which is, you know, almost become
a meme soundtrack now, And I think this is what
I think I'd love about this movie is you are
watching people make bad decisions all the way through, or
not knowing their direction, so they are forced into bad choices.

(01:05:50):
And you know, this is about I think about two
young people who are looking at their parents and I
don't want to be like them, and I want to,
you know, rebel a little bit, and and they do that,
but they're not really what are they really rebelling against.
You know, they've got privilege kind of lifestyles. You know,
their parents are from what we see, you know, you

(01:06:15):
know they're they're obviously their parents. You know, they can
be a bit embarrassing, they can make you feel a
bit uncomfortable. But you know, missus Robinsons has stuck it out,
you know, in a loveless marriage. But in the end
they get to the end and Elaine has already been
forced to drop out of college because you know, back then,
you get married a person, you know, the expectation is

(01:06:37):
you get pregnant, try for a baby not long after.
And so she's left already left college when she's going
to marry the other guy, Benjamins left his car behind.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
You know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
There, so they're poor, that they've pissed off their families,
that they've left their life of privilege. I think they've
realized they have made the same mistake or the falling
through the same trap as potentially their parents have.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
And this is just a cycle.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Think if you don't have that, And this is why
all those choices made that I was speaking about before
that maybe you know Mike Nichols doesn't want to give
us all that information because you know, he doesn't want
us to feel like, oh, we don't necessarily want to
see Elaine and Ben fall in love, because that would
be the happy ending that finishes twenty seconds earlier when

(01:07:26):
they are happy on the bus.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
You know, if they've.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Earned our goodwill that they are are actually in love
and this thing's forever, then sure, finish it twenty seconds earlier.
But because that hasn't been earned, finish it go for
an extra thirty seconds and see the reality kind of
drop into their faces. And I think that gives me
actually kind of that's what I think makes this a

(01:07:50):
great film.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Yeah, no, well.

Speaker 8 (01:07:53):
Said, I completely agree, And yeah, it would have been
a very different film if they'd cut it out.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Yeaheconds earlier, wouldn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
And I think the hammer home the point.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
There's a scene in the hotel after they have that
fight and he ends up staying and in he's dressed
and she's put her stockings back on, and he just says,
let's you know, I won't date to lane. I won't
date to a lane. Let's not talk about this anymoreing,
but let's not talk at all. And he slowly gets
stressed and the pants across over to and bankrupt, and
she's kind of sadly getting dressed, sorry, get taking her

(01:08:29):
stockings off, and it just looks like a loveless marriage already.
And I think that kind of tone feels like that's
what the last scene is also going for. And you
can also make the point by the way that I
think Benjamin Braddock's character is not particularly likable, but either,
you know, missus Robinson has her moment, certainly the allegation

(01:08:51):
that we spoke about before. Catherine's you know, she's a
bit of ray of sunshine. But you know, even she
if she's making weird decisions about you, maybe I'll marry you,
maybe I'll marry him.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
It's like, yeah, running at the altar, Ben's turning up big,
very stalky at the end. There basically a film of
horrible people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
It's son felt in a way, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Yeah, Yeah, Well, in a similar way, you still want
to spend time with these people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Absolutely, it's partly due to how good the performances are.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
I think absolutely. I think it's it's it's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
A few little fun facts before we let you go,
because this podcast comes with homework, and I thank you
for making the time. You are extremely busy, and there's
a few little fun facts. Robert Redford had had worked
with Mike Nichols before and wanted to play the role
and make Nichols said, look in the mirror, there's no

(01:09:48):
way you could play somebody who's, you know, struggling to
attract the opposite sex.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
So he yeah, that wouldn't have worked.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
That wouldn't have worked.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Dustin Hoffman was concerned the fact that he was Jewish
and his parents weren't, but Mike Nichol said, well, maybe
a Jewish on the inside, which I'm not exactly sure
what that means.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
That's that's that's what I said.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Gene Hackman was actually cast as mister Robinson funnily enough,
but it was fired after a week of rehearsal for
reasons a little bit nebulous. But it all worked out
quite well because he then went on to Bonnie and Clyde,
which was nominated for an Oscar that following year, so
augured for him that kind of kicked out of his career.

(01:10:38):
During the screen test, Dustin Hoffman making a few questionable calls,
Dustin Hoffman back here, he pinched Katherine Ross on the
bum and he Catherine berated him, and he kind of
slunk off, you know, a bit sheepish, you know, tail
between his legs. And Mike Nichols saw that and actually

(01:10:58):
kind of thought that kind of reaction is exactly how
Benjamin Braddock would react, So that kind of helped him
get the role. It's the only Oscar director has been.
It was one without any other nominations winning. That was
the only one up until twenty twenty one where Powered
the Dog Joan Campion's Powered Dog. She won for that

(01:11:20):
with no other wins at the Oscars.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
That's just really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
It dusn't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Hoffman was supposed to be in the mel Brooks of
the producers and heard about this role and asked mel
Brooks if he could audition. Mel Brooks had knew a
bit about the role because he was married to Anne Bancroft,
and agreed, thinking there's no way they're gonna cast Dustin Hoffman.

(01:11:47):
This shy, this shy kid, you know, short stature, because
in the book he's actually written as a waspy kind of,
you know, athletic blonde guy. So there's a mass call
for Mike Nichols to cast doesn't Hoffman. So mel Brooks
thinking the same way. I think there's no way he's
going to cast him. But he got the role and

(01:12:08):
ended up spending some time with his wife on screen obviously.
And finally there was a interesting like it doesn't happen,
goes on, it makes Midnight Cowboys his next film. Then
he just explodes and Mike Nichols advised him not to
do Midnight Cowboy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
It's not a great role for you. He was wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
But a Bancroft, and this is maybe a little bit
of sexism involved in Hollywood, does not make a film
for another five years. Yeah, the reason I'm not completely
aware of. But you know, it's just interesting because she
got nominated for an Oscar an amazing performance, as we've noted.
But yes, mate, like I said, you are working on
so many different things you have. Congratulations on the Bike Riders.

(01:12:47):
I saw that you and Tom Hardy and Jodi Comer.
I absolutely loved it. I've expressed this to you. That
was a great ride with another Nichols, of Jeff Nichols.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
This time. They're not related at all, are they? I'm
just asking.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
I never heard that they are.

Speaker 5 (01:13:05):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
I think that would be too good a story to
not be out there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Yeah, yep. And there's lots of exciting things. I mentioned earlier.
You were doing a series with Kevin Bacon which will
be out and I imagined maybe sometime in the next year.
But also I'm very excited Better Man comes out we
think later this year, which is the Robbie Williams story.
I'm fascinated about this. I've heard all kinds of rumors

(01:13:33):
about plot lines and how I believe it's going to
be very different. It's from the gentleman who brought us
The Greatest Showman, which was one of the all time,
you know, one of the big surprise hits a few
years ago, of course, if Hugh Jackman. I was at
rod Laver Arena watching Robbie Williams perform, and they were
shooting that concert for the film as well. So you
had like an area at the front where people had

(01:13:56):
been invited and they were way more dressed up than
the rest of the crowd, for example, probably dressed.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
In nineties gear. I think because it was Yeah, it
was you know, shooting scenes that were earlier in his career. Yes, yeah, Look,
I probably can't talk too much about it, which is
that really annoying act a cliche. I'm sorry I can't
talk about it, but they're they're keeping a lot of
this secret for the moment. But all I will say

(01:14:21):
is it is. I have seen it, and it is
quite spectacular. Michael Gracie, the director is is really truly
a genius and I think it's going to be. Yeah,
it's going to be hell of a rite. As you say,
there's lots of little there things about it that make
it very unusual and very different from a regular biopic

(01:14:46):
that we've we've kind of become used to in the
last few years.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Every time I spent somebody about including Robbi Williams himself.
You the chat to him briefly about it, everyone has
his little smirk on their face. There's something we don't
know that is going to blow our minds.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
I think that's accurate. Yeah, I think there's something that
it's going to blow your mind.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
I very cool I love it, mate, and you know,
congratulations you You are always working and always the breadth
of roles that you can play is absolutely incredible. And
and yes, and of course I may have briefly mentioned
it in our intro, but hopefully there's something, a little
project we can announce in a year or two that

(01:15:33):
we're we've quietly been tapping away on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
I can't say too much we're tapping away on.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
It's something we're tapping away on, but hopefully one day.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
It is a lot of day. But that's been a.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Real joy just to see your process and to work
with you on that as well.

Speaker 3 (01:15:47):
It's been great.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
No details are being spilled as of yet, mate.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Even more secretive than the I know, but we're not.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
But we're both smirking, which means is something that you
don't know about.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
This gonna blow you away again.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Thank you, Sorry, mauch Mite, and I'll let you get
back to your lot in Los Angeles and we'll see
Becky soon.

Speaker 3 (01:16:07):
Man. I think.

Speaker 7 (01:16:11):
I think you ought to be taking it a little
easier right now than you seem to be. Sew a
few wild oats, take things as they come, have a
good time with.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
The girls, and so far, don't get up. I uh,
I was just telling.

Speaker 7 (01:16:33):
Been here that he ought to sew a few wild
oats have a good time while it. Can You think
that's sound advice?

Speaker 6 (01:16:41):
Yes, I do.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
I got to go. You have your shop of a
few flings this summer. I bet you're you're quite a
lady's man.

Speaker 7 (01:16:53):
Oh no, you look to me like the kind of
guy who has to fight Omar.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
That doesn't he look to you like the kind of
guy who has to fight o war? Yes he does.
I'm saying.

Speaker 7 (01:17:07):
Elaine gets down from Berkeley on sad Oh yeah, how
was to get.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
Her a cap?

Speaker 7 (01:17:13):
I will.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Be careful what you wish for, mister Robinson. Or advising
Benjamin sewing his wild oats, Well, he sewed him a
little too well, perhaps the Graduate of nineteen sixty seven.
Mike Nichols fantastic, Dustin Hoffman and Bancroft. Really, I really
enjoy enjoy the film, and I think, yeah, I loved

(01:17:40):
chatting to Damon about it, and I loved And this
is what these podcasts I wanted to be, where a
guest can watch a film and they can still be
working it out process and we can talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
That's what film.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
I think he's supposed to be so like the Damon
is maybe the busiest guests I've had on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
I didn't ask him for a while because I thought
he's too busy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
He's too busy, but I finally kind of dropped it
in there and he is like, very quickly said yeah,
I love to So the graduate it was. If you
enjoyed the podcast, you know you get it for free.
So I've got one favor. Go to the iTunes store
and give us a rating. I recommend five or maybe
a review. That would be wonderful. It keeps the algorithm

(01:18:20):
working in the right direction. If you want to email us,
YASNY podcast at gmail dot com would love to hear
from you, and also through our speak pipe. You can
get onto our speak pipe and leave a message, ask
a question about a guest or a film that we've covered,
or a film that you might want us to cover.
We would love to hear from you. And you ain't
seen nothing yet until then. Back them out

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
And so we leave old Pete save fansul and to
our friends of the radio audience, we've been a pleasant,
good time