Queer and Trans Pleasure: In Conversation with Dr Damon Constantinides, PhD, LCSW, CST

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Iantaffi (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
gender stories. I know I willsay that I'm excited, but it's
because it's true. I justinterview the coolest people.
And today I have the pleasure tointerview a wonderful colleague,
Dr Damon Constantinides. Damonis a queer trans man and sex
nerd who loves being a dad,teaching and talking about queer

(00:22):
and trans pleasure, and growingplants as a way to connect with
magic and the sacredness of theearth. He is trained as both a
clinical social worker and a sextherapist and has worked for
more than 20 years in the fieldsof trans and queer health. He
owns a private therapy andcoaching practice where he
offers virtual groups andservices to trans and queer
folks all over the world.
Damon is a trainer for the sextherapy certificate program at

(00:46):
the California Institute ofIntegral Studies and an adjunct
progressor at WidenerUniversity. He is also the
co-author of the book SexTherapy for Erotically

Marginalized Clients (00:55):
Nine Principles of Clinical Support
and his writing can also befound in the newest edition of
Trans Bodies, Trans Selves. Youcan learn more about his work at
www.drdamonc.com or on his IG@dr.damonc.. And don't worry
listeners because all thoselinks as ever are gonna be in

(01:17):
the episode description. Sothank you so much, Damon for
making time to talk with metoday for gender stories. I
really appreciate it.

Dr Damon Constantinides (01:28):
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having
me.

Yeah, it's such a pleasure. So, you know, I first
became aware of you and yourwork when when your book came
out, actually the, you know, thesex therapy for radically
marginalized clients, nineprinciples of clinical support.
And I know, it has been out alittle while but you know, I
think it's, did we say fiveyears before the recording
started? Yeah. But I stillrecommend it to colleagues all

(01:53):
the time. I think it's such agreat book. So maybe why don't
we get started by talking aboutyour passion for training
providers and walk maybemotivated you to write that
book? And? Yeah, let's take itfrom there have more questions,
but I don't have to throw myquestions all at once. So let's
start from there.

Sure, I can start there. Although it is
funny, because it has been aminute. Yeah, so the so I got
into the field of therapy by wayof trans health care. And so I
was doing trainings before I wasdoing therapy or coaching. And

(02:33):
so I feel like the work thatI've done since then has kind of
been an extension of workingwith providers. And the book
really was a project that cameout of a presentation with
another colleague, we would havecase consultations together and
talk about our work. And therewere so many similarities among

(02:55):
all of the clients that we hadthat word we use the term are
erotically marginalized, butmostly like the trans, kinky,
poly, queer clients have similarthings happening. And so we
wanted a way to be able to talkabout that, specifically for the
field of sex therapy, which isstill working on expanding their

(03:21):
inclusivity and diversity. Andso that was, yeah, that's how
the book came about. And I amglad that you recommend it, I do
think it's a really goodresource, especially for folks
who are starting out or forfolks who aren't in the field of
sex therapy, but want to have afoundation for talking about

(03:43):
sexuality with clients thatthey're working with. So and we
wanted it to be accessible inthat way.

Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I
recommend it all the time.
Actually, I think it's reallyaccessible. It's really
foundational. You know, I reallylove how it cuts across like,
actually, there are some thingsthat we do have in common as
marginalized folks, you know, inthe field, and here are some
things that we really want youto think about. So I think
that's a really beautiful model.

(04:12):
And, you know, I know beforekind of we started the
recording, you were saying yourfocus has really shifted from
educating providers to reallyproviding more services to the
community. So let's talk alittle bit about that shift. And
what prompted that shift fromkind of your background of as a
trainer and educating providersand trans health to actually be

(04:34):
more kind of the provider oftherapy and coaching and
resources for the community?

Unknown (04:41):
Sure. Yeah. So I think it's relevant to me and that I
came out as trans in my mid 20s.
And I Trent, my transitionreally matched my entry into the
workforce in This kind ofinteresting way. But I was
identifying as non binary andthen as trans masculine. In

(05:07):
during that time, kind of likea, you know, a book, it was
really focused on providers forother providers and felt like, I
had skills and language and itwas a good fit. And then what
happened for me, which I thinkis pretty interesting is one of
the things that happened was thepandemic, which really forced me

(05:27):
to be working online. And Istarted to learn a lot about how
I work in a different way, andfound that that was just such a
better fit for my nervoussystem. And so that was one way
that I started to be able to beembodied. And that hadn't really
been accessible to me when Iwas, I was working in

(05:51):
Philadelphia, and threedifferent offices, and it was
just a lot of just wasn't verypresent. And then the other
thing that happened that reallyshifted, the trajectory of my
work was my own personalexperience with bottom surgery.
So because I have a PhD, therewas a minute there in

(06:11):
Philadelphia, where I was one ofthe only people writing letters
for people who are accessingbottom surgery. Now, there's a
bunch of people, which isamazing, and I feel so grateful
for community. But there was aperiod where I was writing about
a letter a week for folks. Andso I was really interacting a
lot with trans masc, transfem,and non binary folks who were

(06:32):
looking to access bottom surgeryof some kind. And through that
experience, I just had like amoment one day where I was like,
Oh, wow, I, I think I want this,which is really interesting.
Because to me, because I hadbeen very invested in not
wanting any more surgery, andhad top surgery in my mid 20s.

(06:53):
And so it was a real it reallychanged how I thought about
myself. And I had to do a lot ofwork to figure out what that
meant, knowing that I wanted it.
And I said this to you earlierthat I talk about bottom

(07:16):
surgery, because it doesn'tbother me, I think like 20 years
of sex therapy training, kindof, I have like a, just a
different relationship, I thinkwith with that part of myself
and talking about it. And, and Iknow for logical, that's really
hard. So I feel like one of thethings I can offer is yeah, just

(07:38):
like being pretty upfront andsharing what feels comfortable.
So what I didn't expect wasafter I was able to access
surgery, which is its own storyis that I suddenly had all these
openings in my life that I justhad not expected, like I, you

(07:59):
know, I work with trans folks, Ilike you know, I know all the
things right that like it canimpact your life and all these
ways. And, and it was adifferent thing to experience
and being like, Oh, I actuallyjust am more comfortable in so
many ways that have nothing todo with the actual surgery at

(08:21):
all. And one of those one ofthose ways was like teaching and
talking to trans folks about sexand sexual pleasure, which
before, I have a lot ofthoughts. I even written as a
zine that you can get. It's onmy website, I've written that
before, like I had, I couldwrite about it. But like talking
about it, I just didn't feelcomfortable. And so since my

(08:44):
surgeries are done, what Ireally did was shift my practice
to working with the community.
And right now, mostly transmasc, but with like a vision to
expand that. And yeah, likeoffering services around sex
therapy and sex coaching.

Yeah, and those services are so needed. And I do
want to talk about the servicesyou offer, because I think
they're really wonderful. Andlike I said, essential. But
first, I want to stay with thispiece of the story for a minute
because like you said, noteverybody feels comfortable to
talk about it. And actually, Idon't think that from a trans

(09:25):
masc perspective, we ever talkedabout bottom surgery from this
perspective on the show. So ifthat's okay, you know, we touch
base before the recordingstarted. I like to stay with
that. And one of the things I'mcurious about is what teamed for
you that made you realize thismight be something I want for
myself because often I know thateven for myself sometimes I

(09:46):
thought about it, you know, I'vecontemplated it out and then I'm
like, Oh, I don't know there's alot of risks with surgery. I've
got Ehlers Danlos Syndrome,which then acts the risk with
anything surgical especiallyaround genital area and risk of
potential prolapse, all thatgood stuff that I also need to
consider, right? Niceintersection of being trans and

(10:06):
disabled and older, you know,my, oh, we know maybe if I was
in my 20s and 30s, I go for itbut in my 50s Like, I feel
pretty settled is that but youknow, now and again, I think
about it, and I definitelysupported a ton of clients,
we've contemplated thatquestion, and I've come to a
range of answers. But I thinkoften clients ask me, like, how
am I gonna know? Right? And I'mlike, You're the only one who

(10:29):
knows when you're gonna know,right? I can be here or the
container, ask the questions,share the information I have
within my scope of practice,right? But often there is this,
what am I, you know, how am Igonna know? What is it that's
gonna let me know that this iswhat I want? Does that make
sense? And I don't know if youknow, what was your journey like
around this? Or if any of what Ishared resonates in any way with

(10:51):
you? Yeah,

yeah, I'm happy to share both both how
I got there. And, and before Ido that, one of the things that
I'll say to clients or peopleand working with friends and
talking about it is, is likejust thinking about it as data
collection, which is how Ithought about it, right. So it's
like, collecting data for myexperience. And now, I wanted to

(11:15):
say that first I didn't forgetit, and I'll get a reference
back to it. But I think thething that really like the
moment where I was like, oh, Iwant this was when I met with
somebody who was havingphalloplasty, which is where
they use a donor site to make apenis without any of the other

(11:36):
surgeries. So like, there was noscrotoplasty, there is no
vaginectomy, there was nourethral lengthening. And those
last three surgeries all ofteninvolve a lot of complications.
And so the idea that this personwas getting surgery just to have
the kind of sex that he wanted,felt like, just like such a
gift, like I was so glad like hewas doing that for himself. And

(11:58):
I had never thought about thatas a good enough reason for
wanting to access surgery. Andso it kind of unlocked a
different way to look at bottomsurgery. And, and I do share
this because I think there'sthis idea that trans people
wants to spot cancer, if you'reaccessing a surgery, you're

(12:21):
doing it to be as safe aspossible. And I knew that that
wasn't me. And so I just assumedthat those surgeries were not
for me, because I was notinterested in his body. i That's
not my experience. And I knowfor some people is I don't want
to, like, diminish or minimizethat. But for me, it's not. And

(12:42):
so just this, like freedom toreally think about what I wanted
to have my male body was wasreally eye opening. And so that
was the moment and I like I waspretty freaked out about it. And
like immediately talked to Ilike one friend, who's also a
sex therapist, too, has reallylike listened to all of my

(13:04):
musings about this over the lastfive years to like, help me get
to where I needed to be. But Iwas like, Oh my God, what do I
do? I think that I want this.
And then that's where the datacollection part came in for me
was like, What do I want, right.
And so I, I did things like trydifferent packers, which I'd
never done before and was like,and like, I tried different

(13:29):
prosthetics or toys, I likethought about myself in
different ways and about my bodyin different ways. It took a lot
of writing about it. And it wasreally kind of like trying all
these different ideas to come toa place where I knew that I
wanted it and I knew what, whatI wanted. And so I'll I'll name

(13:54):
that. And I just I, I just did afree live event about
considering bottom surgery whereessentially, essentially a list
of all the questions that Iasked myself getting, like
that's essentially what it is.
But like really trying to figureout what was important and also
not just what was important tome and my body, but also what

(14:15):
was important to my life. So youknow, I mentioned in my bio that
I'm a dad, and that's been themost gender affirming experience
I've ever had, which I did notexpect. And I when I started out
on the bottom surgery experienceI had either she was either five
or six. And so one of the thingsthat was important to me was

(14:40):
that I wasn't gonna be missingfrom parenting for a very long
time. And when you're havingsurgery, and you're very inward
focused as we need to be, and sopart of my decision making
wasn't, wasn't just, it wasn'tjust what I wanted. It was what
I wanted for for myself in thecontext of my family, and so I

(15:01):
like to name that because Ithink a lot of times people
think that they're that youshouldn't consider that or you
should only think aboutsomething this way and not that
way. But just wanting to like,think about a meal holistically,
like, you know, if I had been21, I, you know, or 25 with
resources on insurance. But Imight have made different

(15:27):
decisions. But I wasn't, I was38. And I had number 30 has
almost 14, you know, and I had akid and I, I made decisions that
were best for me and my life asit is not as if that makes
sense.

Oh, that makes so much sense to me. And I love.
I think. I mean, in some ways,it's kind of it feels a little
I'm having so many thoughts, Ilove first of all, you describe
that it's a process, right?
Because often, that's why I sayto clients as well, I'm like,
it's not a one and done, right?
I mean, yes, for some people,they're really clear about what
they want. And they've alreadydone all the research. And

(16:04):
that's wonderful, right? But forfolks who are like, I'm just
starting to think about this, Ineed to decide, you know, there
can be a sense of urgency. I'mlike, That's okay, we can take a
minute to explore what you want,and what their options are. And,
you know, if you have questions,this is a good time to explore
those questions, right? Youdon't have to be like, 100%

(16:25):
Sure, because can we ever be100% sure of anything. But, you
know, I encourage people toengage with it as a process. And
I also encourage them to thinkabout all the different aspects
of their life, like besides thismoralistic perspective, right?
If I think even about myexperience of top surgery,
right, I had a when my oldestwas, like, seven years old, you

(16:46):
know, my youngest hadn't comeinto my life yet. And this was
back almost 14 years ago. Andnow she's, she's 20. Now. But
you know, and I was thinking,okay, when do I do it in the
year, so that's, like, you know,good for me, but also good for
my family and making sure thatthere was community support,
because even though I did have anesting partner, you know, when

(17:07):
you put parenting andcaregiving, you know, and
holidays, because I did it rightbefore Christmas, because that
was a good time for me as anacademic at the time. And you
know, that there are lots ofthings to consider. And so I was
thinking, What about support formy family while I'm healing?
Right? And? And also, how do Italk about it with my kids and

(17:28):
make sure that like, sheunderstands what's happening,
and that she can ask thequestions she wants to ask
before and after, which she didhave questions right, before and
after. And so I think that it'ssomething that often people are
like, you know, I just want tothink about it for myself. And
I'm like, That is great. Andalso, let's think about, you

(17:48):
know, when might be the besttime for you when might be you
know, do you have the supportthat you need all those kinds of
questions. And I love that yousaid that being a dad, and being
a parent has been such a genderaffirming part as well. I would
love for you to say we'll bemore about how parenting being
kind of gender affirming for youin some way.

(18:14):
bit like process of elimination.
Like, I did not come into atrans mask identity with us, I
carried a lot of shame. Icarried a lot of trauma. And
like being a man felt veryprecarious. And it took me a
very long time to be like, Oh,actually, I have the binary
trans identity. It's a very longtime. And so in some ways, they

(18:36):
just think it's like a firsttime where I was like, Oh, this
fits and I don't have anyreservations about it. Like it
just so I think it was in someways more of a somatic
experience. And I one time Iwent to a workshop Ignacio I
forget his last name.

(18:59):
Oh, Ignacio Rivera? Yeah, I lovetheir work so much.

Yeah, it was a trans wellness
conference. And it was aboutbeing transparent. And it was
before I had a kid. And now shewas free was that like, there
are lots of ways that we parentand that being a transparent
isn't just about having a kid.
And and it was very, I was like,Oh, right. And I was at the time
running the trans youth group,local LGBTQ Center, and like

(19:25):
working primarily with transyouth and like, there were so
many ways in which I wasparenting. And so it was also
like, Oh, this is I don't know,the way I think about it is this
is probably because I have myown experiences that required me
to parent as a young person, butwhatever at this point, now,

(19:48):
it's like a tool that I can useto help other people and like,
share it as kind of like, thiscomes naturally to me and so how
can it like support People whodon't naturally have this
energy, dad energy.

that makes so much sense to me, you know, I
don't know if that's how youidentify. But as a parent, if I
child I'm like, I think that'swhere a lot of my skills as a
therapist, I'm probably, youknow, or anything I do, and
there are times that I'm like,but I was like, Well, that's
what we do as humans, right? Wetake what we got, you know, and
partially part of it is trauma,which led to like being a

(20:31):
parentified kid, but also partis like, that's for some of us,
too, right? We managed todevelop this kind of more
nurturing parental parts ofourselves. And definitely a
more, it's very interesting inour family, I think gender roles
are very kind of mixed up indifferent ways. There are ways
in which I'm definitely youknow, I was the gestational
parent. So in that way, I'm themom, in some ways to my oldest,

(20:55):
but in other ways, I definitelyhave more of a traditional dad
in that like, kind of the main,you know, breadwinner for our
family. And I was not the personor was always available for
like, if the kid is sick atschool, or because of my job,
actually, you know, my coparentis much more likely to be the
one kind of, you know, doingdrop off and pick out and he

(21:17):
also just has this very eventhough is this, this man has
this very warm mom quality forone of a better word. I'm
definitely more than like, rileup the kid before bedtime, kind
of. And so I think of whenthinking about parenting and
genders. Yeah. Yeah.

And I guess I want to, like say to
that, to that, I think part ofwhat being a dad, a trans dad
that I enjoy is actually thequeering of it. So like, we just
had this conversation. My kidand I, she's, she just turned
10. And I was doing I always doher hair. Because I always have

(21:55):
long hair. And I always I knowhow to do hair. And I did
costume design, I know how towrite like, I was also very
faggy part of me, so maybe it'smore like fag dad, can really
bring up in that moment. But shewas like, yeah, when kids ask me
about my hair, they're like, Itold him You did it. They're
like, all surprised. And she'slike, but sometimes they can
maybe they need to get there.
But But yeah, so I don't know,there's something that feels

(22:22):
freeing about it, which I don'tactually think makes a lot of
sense. Because I know, like, Ijust I know that I know,
cognitively that sometimes thoseparent roles can feel really
rigid for people, for whateverreason, I can very lucky that
that was just not what I like. Ithink maybe excited to separate
myself so much. From my pastexperience. I was like, like it

(22:42):
to just make it up. And likethere was a real freedom.

That is so beautiful and so expansive. And,
you know, often when I work withclients, that's what I want for
all of them trans or cis or nonbinary, I'm like, you know, yes,
we do have all this likefamilial and cultural and social
and historical baggage when itcomes to gender in so many
different ways. And, you know,I, I mean, a lot of my work is

(23:10):
about this, I truly believe thatthat expansiveness can be
accessible to all of us. And oneof the ways is to really move
away from this rigid saysfederal, you know, mono
normative ideas about like, whatdoes it mean to be a man or a
woman, a dad or a husband or awife, right. And as he says,

(23:31):
that folks kind of struggle withthat rigidity to when, and there
are studies that have shown thatthey also don't, you know,
really benefit that they'rearmed, often by those kind of
more rigid binaries. So I lovethat you talked about that. So
he given all of that while Iwas, you know, you talked about
this process of designing aroundbottom surgery. And I loved what

(23:54):
you said that there was a momentwhen you realize I couldn't do
that just for me, just for me toaccess, you know, even more
embodiment, more pleasure in myown body, having the kind of
facts you know, that want. Andthat is really beautiful. But
then the was the process. Atwhich point in that process, did
you know that you were ready tomove forward? Because that's

(24:16):
another question that peopleoften have. Okay, I keep looking
at things. You know, I'm like,98%. There. When do I know that
I'm ready, right.

Yeah, I don't I don't remember the
moment that I knew I was readyand that I had made a decision
about what I wanted. But I Iknow the moment that I realized
I was ready was that the way myhealth insurance is through my
partner. And there was wethought that my insurance will

(24:49):
be covered when doesn't matterif something happened on July 1.
And on July 1, that didn'thappen. And we found out we
would have to wait four yearsand so Oh, I just kind of like
lost. And like, I was sosurprised by my emotional
reaction that that was data,right? I was like, okay, that's
data. And we, and we did a lotof, you know, in solidarity with

(25:12):
people that have to do that,work with your insurance and do
try to appeal it three times.
And it's like a reallyhumiliating experience to try to
do and we met, we didn't get itcovered that way, that we were
finally able to get it coveredin a in a different way by by
communicating with your job. Andthat was a real deal. So I

(25:36):
didn't have to wait four years.
But that moment was like, Oh,okay. This is a bigger deal than
I want, knew it was and, youknow, wanted it to be because I
didn't want to take up space.
Resources, I didn't want to takeup time. But I need it.

I thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry that you
had to go through all of that,because it is a really
heartbreaking, humiliatingprocess for a lot of folks. You
know, I was really lucky with mytop surgery that was covered
under my work insurance at thetime and, you know, covered in
full in. But I've supported alot of folks, including friends
with appeals, and now,exhausting. And also insurance

(26:20):
is not always clear of why, youknow, there's just a language
that they use that if you're notimmersed in health insurance
world all the time, and clientsor even friends go, I don't
understand this should becovered under my policy. Why did
I get rejected, right? Andbecause I'm a provider works
with insurance, I can lookthrough and go, Oh, they use
this loophole, or they use thatloophole right here is how we

(26:42):
can address it. You know, that?
You know, often it is thatmoment where you're like, well,
maybe I can't do this, thatreally, you know, even when I
work with clients, who sometimesare like, I don't know, I think
that transitioning is ruining mylife. I don't know, if I want to
transition. I'm like, that'sokay. You can stop at any point
in time. And I am genuine when Isay that I really want people to

(27:03):
feel comfortable, like, you canbe trans and never have to
transition. If it's not safe inyour world, right? You can, you
will, you can starttransitioning, you can stop
like, I started testosterone andstop that. I mean, I'm on like,
I think my third round over thelast 15 years, you know, and
it's not like, it's not like Istart on a stop in three months,
right? But it's like a start.

(27:25):
And then I'm like, I think thisis enough change for now. We get
to make choices over our bodies,right? And so sometimes when
somebody gives us permission tobe like, you have to do this
when it's like, no, I want to dothis. I'm like, Okay, let's look
at what's, where's the distresscoming from? Right. But yeah,

(27:46):
that helps. I love what you saidabout just like centering. You
can do this just by foryourself, right? I think so much
of gender affirming care, andespecially trans health care is
views is viewed for this kind ofcis gays, right? Like, even when
I remember when I was going fortop surgery, a lot of people
going Oh, so you're going to bea man now? And I was like, well,

(28:08):
not really. Because that's Imean, I think my masculinity is
so not into binary masculinitythat I'm like, Yes, I guess I am
a man in some ways, but notreally like, right. But I think
there is this idea that, Oh,you're doing this to assimilate
into cis ness, right? You'redoing this so that your body can

(28:29):
be more like a cis body, right?
Because this this body is thestandard as far as my mind can
would say about the white body.
I'll say the CES, why table bodyraise the standard. So I, I'm
just really curious about whathappens when we move away from
that and just get to do thingsfor ourselves. So can you say a
little bit more about whathappened with that client, when

(28:51):
you were like, Oh, you can dothis in a different way. You can
have bottom surgery in adifferent way, right? Because I
think people are like, this iswhat you do. And you need to
make sure that it's exactly likesimilar to kind of cis genitals
and there are no other options.
But actually, there are a lot ofoptions for both transmasc and
trans femme folks, I think.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Are you asking like what myexperience was with that person?

Either you can either be what your experience
was like, what was it thatunlocked for you or it can be
more general, we can also go inthe direction of more generally,
like, people don't realize thatit's not like, now I'm just
making my body into a cis body,they basically, whether it's
your bottom surgery, right? Andactually, so we could even talk

(29:37):
about all the different optionsfor bottom surgery that people
may not be aware of. So whichdirection feels best for you?

Well, I think I think though, I also
want to mention this idea. Ithink this is adjacent that you
have to like want to have to besuicidal to access transforming
here. And I think it was reallythat piece actually that like
was, or you have to have likeextreme dysphoria, right? Maybe
not. Maybe not suicidal, butextreme dysphoria for something

(30:08):
you should have access to. Andthat wasn't I didn't have, you
know, like, I had clients thatcan't use public restrooms
because they're just for you,right? That's not my experience,
right? Like, I've had clientswho aren't able to, like really
struggle with sexual pleasure,because of their dysphoria.

(30:28):
That, you know, there'sdefinitely some some, like,
distancing myself, right, but itwasn't that experience. And so I
think just like, yeah, likewatching him make that decision,
without extreme distress, andfeeling so confident in it. And
I felt great about writingletter, right, like, always

(30:49):
writing letters. Like, I don'tkeep keeping. And so just like
having that that moment. Andit's something that I like to
share with people. And the otherthing I'll say is, a couple of
weeks ago, I had the opportunityto go to Camp Lost Boys, which
is 150 trans men, summer campfor a weekend, which was really

(31:10):
powerful as someone who doesn'toften feel like I have so that
that part was powerful, but Ialso really appreciate it. You
know, somebody just like talkingabout how trans masculine people
don't take up space. Yeah,right. Like, you don't take up
space, you're like, you're agiver, you're a caretaker, your

(31:31):
a service, you're in the humanservices professional, you know,
like, but you don't, you don'ttake up space, you're like, very
careful, and very cautious. Andof course, those are
generalizations, generalizationsdon't cover everybody, right?
But I do think like, as aculture, like, that's stuff that

(31:51):
feels that felt true to me, inmy experience of trans mass
culture. And in my experience ofmyself as a trans man, right?
Like, I'm a man, but I don'twant to be like, a toxic man.
And I don't want to like beenacting sexism. So I want to,
like, take up space, but I havetoo much space. And so I think

(32:12):
there was that piece to aroundthe surgery of like, oh, having
to be willing to take up space,which was really challenging for
me to do. I mean, you even heardme talk about it, like, I'll
take up space. And I'll do it.
So that I can be benefiting thisperson who was like, responsive,
like I'm responsible for, right,like, and I don't feel bad about

(32:34):
the mapping part of thenarrative, right? But like that,
like, that's part of thatnarrative about not taking up
space, like,

exactly, and it's good to have an awareness where,
oh, my God, I resonate with thatso much. And then sometimes when
we take up space, or say thatthing, then that can also be
that backlash of like, oh,you're just like, you're just
being a dude right now, oryou're just being a man. And
then that creates even more, atleast for me, like, okay, like,
shrink back into not beingthreatening, right? Because

(33:07):
there's something about that,like stepping into
assertiveness, or taking upspace that can also be very
quickly labeled as like, oh,that's toxic masculinity, right?
Either from other people orinternally. I've also worked
with clients where like, I justdon't, you know, even
somatically, right? Like, let'slet's really experience like,

(33:27):
finding this right place, youknow, not inflated, not
deflated, just right, you know,just the right amount of space.
And I've had so many transmasculine folks go, Oh, this
feels so good semantically, butwhat if I take up too much
space, right? And no thing, evenjust the fact that you worry
that you might take up too muchspace? probably means you're not
a toxic man. Like most most menwho take up too much space,

(33:51):
don't think about it a lot in myexperience, right. I think
you're right, that can be somuch kind of reticence. And I
think that's relevant inthinking about I'd love so many
other things use. You said thatwhen I go into a lot of
different directions, but Ithink the direction I'll pick is
around the centering ofpleasure, that you seem to be

(34:12):
kind of moving towards in yourwork, right? Because in a way,
kind of when we do things notbecause of the distress. I'm
really glad you mentioned thatbecause same I was like, Oh, do
I have enough dysphoria? Youknow, how much dysphoria is
enough dysphoria, you know? Oreven is, we're still centering
this kind of the must besomething distressing about

(34:34):
being trans. That must besomething that hurts rather than
I just actually want to bemyself and feel embodied and
center expansiveness and joy andpleasure. And that should be
good enough, right? For anybody,right? Like this is gonna help
me lead a better life a moreexpensive life, to feel more
embodied to be more settled toaccess, more connection and more

(34:56):
joy, more pleasure, includingsexual pleasure right now. I
think there's such a shift whenwe can come to this place of
like, making choices from thisplace. So there's that part of
what motivated you to startthings like the trans masc
sexual pleasure program, forexample, and to really, you
know, to go in the direction ofbeing a sex therapist, right?

(35:17):
You could have just said, thattherapists to work with all
sorts of issues, includingfacts, but you did specialize as
a sex therapist, which in a waykind of makes sense, then that
they would run a group that it'sabout sexual pleasure, right?
Making sense. But tell me alittle bit about that journey.
And that choice of centeringpleasure in your work.

Sure, I mean, it's interesting, like the
road to being a sex therapist,and some, in some ways, that's
why I put like sex nerd as thesecond thing in my bio, is that
I just find it reallyinteresting, perhaps it's like,
you know, and that is alwaysbeen true about me. Like, even
though I wasn't the personhaving the most sex, like, that

(36:00):
wasn't, that's not the role Iplayed in high school or
college, but like, I was theperson who was like, most
interested in it. And so, youknow, I don't know, it was that
trying to figure out myself,probably that was part of it.
For sure. The sexual pleasure,the sexual pleasure program, and

(36:21):
just in general, like wanting tobring that into my work, it's
just, it feels like, it's reallylike a paradigm shift that I
think is really challenging forpeople. And I think can be so
powerful, like when, when welike stop trying to do things
because we're supposed to, orthat's the way it's supposed to

(36:43):
be, and instead are like, reallycurious about, like, what feels
good. And I think that in termsof gender, in terms of
sexuality, and in terms of justlike, you know, like our
experiences as humans ingeneral, like, experience and
pleasure. And so, like, I feellike academically, that's always

(37:03):
something I understood. And Itaught and you taught people to
teach, but it wasn't it was likehaving my own experience right
now feel like I can sit betterwith people as they're on their
journey. So the trans mascpleasure program is like an
eight week it's virtual smallgroup. We do it online, we have

(37:28):
picker, small groupconversation, I guess, ready
curriculum, which like really,like my PhD is in human
sexuality education, actually,like that's, like that's so my
jam. And just getting somereally walk people through this
internal reflection. It's likereflection, growth and like,

(37:50):
kind of plan. And this idea ofalso relevant is that when I
think about trans experience, Ithink about how gender diversity
and trans folks have existedacross time and across culture.
And so just really trying topull it out of always being

(38:12):
compared to systems. But like,what if instead, it's just like,
another option that has nopathology around it? And it's
just like, some, you know, like,whenever, when I used to work, I
don't work as much with teens,but when I used to work almost
only with teens. And when Iwould have parents that were

(38:34):
upset about is their, their kidtrans the first place I would go
to is like, tell me what thatmeans to you. Right? Because
then we see transness as humandiversity and not as pathology
then why not let your kids seewhat it's like to use a
different pronoun? Yeah, what anamazing opportunity for them to

(38:55):
like, know themselves, right?
It's only when it is seen as apathology. She was like, really
unnecessary to me. I don't know.
I don't know if I'm naive, orit's just how I have to, like,
hold it in my head, but like, itjust seems unnecessary to. And
so in terms of like, likepleasure and and sexual

(39:16):
pleasure, right, like, so, somuch of the emphasis on certain
people so often struggle withthat shift of like, How can I
enjoy sex? I can't have sex thatway. Whatever that way is in
there. Right? And so the programis really like, designed to

(39:37):
start to help you shift yourparadigm to the one you want,
which might not be the one Iwant. And that's okay, too.
Right. And also to do it in agroup, right that that's what
people I like to geek out on mycurriculum or whatever. But what
I over and over, heard, thatit's valuable because people

(39:57):
trans mass people are getting totalk to other trans man So
people about how they thinkabout it and what they do and
how they feel. And one of theways that I route my work as a,
as a sex therapist, as atherapist, as a coach is really
like, rooting into like, both myancestors and trancestors and

(40:19):
like my lineage, like my sexualpleasure, lineage, my trans
lineage like, I, before I didthat, I just felt so alone all
the time. And as I started that,as a spiritual practice, I was
I've been more able to be like,anchored and grounded. And so
when it's like something that Itry to offer in, in, like, as a

(40:44):
tool for people that I workwith, is helping folks to get
out, like, what is what doesthat look like, for you? Like,
and, and, in one of my groups, Ihad this, like, amazing
experience for one of theparticipants was like, because I
do it as an activity, like welike make a list. Right? And he
was like, I think we just get tobe that for each other for the

(41:06):
next eight weeks. And like, wewere, like, yeah, we get to be
like each other's mirrors andreflections and models and like,
like that as a gift of being inspace together? Those a very
long answer to your question,but, but

it was a beautiful answer. Absolutely.
And I love what you said,because as somebody who also
very much as you know, I see mywork as part of like a healing
lineage. And I do and even whenI do education, or speaking, I
really always like to lean onancestors and gender blast
ancestors, you know,transgressors. Specifically,

(41:44):
when doing this work, and, and Ithink it does give it an
expansiveness that is differentthan because also, Project
clinically, that is such adeficit and lack model, right?
But if I'm approaching as in,like, humans have always need
healers, because sometimes we'rehurt we, you know, we're home,
but we get hurt, you know, wherewe are whole human being, we're

(42:05):
not broken. I truly believethat. And, and I often talk
about that with clients. And wedon't live in a world culture,
because of colonization becauseof white supremacy and a black
man's patriarchy. Right. And soI feel like, it's not about
fixing in air quotes, you know,broken and airport again, is
really about like, wow, we livein a really messy messed up

(42:30):
world with all the systems ofoppression, of course, you're
gonna feel it in your body andyour soul in your mind. Right?
And so how can we hold thecontainer of healing for each
other and, and that peer supportis so essential, I truly believe
that we heal in community.
Right? And you know, you do so Ilove everything, you've just
said that you do both therapyand coaching. And you know, that

(42:52):
coaching piece allows you tokind of bring people together in
a different way. Now, justbeyond kind of, you know, in a
way, he asked beyond thegeographical boundaries of your
license right? Now, also, thecoaching work is different than
therapy. So for people who aremaybe, like a little confused,
because, you know, there are alot of coaches, and there are a
lot of therapists, and thenthere are some therapists who do

(43:14):
coaching and some therapistsdon't do coaching. And can you
take a moment just to explain tolisteners, like how your therapy
and coaching kind of differs andhow you think about in a
different way?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So there's
there's two ways that I kind oftalk about how how it's
different concretely, and one ofthem is that my coaching work is
not trauma work. And so most ofthe therapy that I do, not all
of it, and I'm trained as aclinical social worker, and I'm
a certified basis, or certifiedsex therapist, certified sex

(43:53):
therapist. And a lot of the workI'm doing is trauma, it's
relational. It's, like familyoriented, it's and so that is,
and that's like, somebody comesto me, and I'm like, What's up?

(44:14):
Like, what's coming up? Like,where are we today? What's going
on today? And it's a prettyorganic experience of healing.
And I'm not saying that healingdoesn't happen in my coaching
work. It does. And I'm also notsaying that people don't come to
my coaching recruit haveexperienced trauma because No,

of course yeah, I've seen both therapists and
coaches and I've worked withdifferent people.

And so the coaching I work is more is
more structured. So I've workedwith with folks as a coach just
in general like really like lifecoach, but like, maybe like
pleasure coach, or and morespecifically around sex coach
And so that it's like a littlebit more structured, it's a

(45:04):
little bit more focused, it's alittle bit more. There's like a
few more worksheets. I don't dothe actions don't do that with
my therapy, like he's doing any,like, worksheets, I won't do it.
But like with my coaching, I'mlike, Oh, I have the best
questions to ask you to thinkabout before you come in. So
that we can try to like makehappen when you talk to me about

(45:26):
wanting to shift and change froma more goal oriented? Yeah,
that's kind of how I think aboutthem differently.

That makes a lot of sense to me, I think about in
very similar ways, like coachingis much more structured than on
a specific topic, usually. Andit is much more outcome
oriented, where versus therapy.
I do want some outcomes, but theoutcome is more process
oriented, right? Yeah. Like, youknow, I'm centering my client
needs, I accompany them to wherethey want to go. And it's so

(45:57):
much broader the work thattherapy, in some ways compared
to the work I do, I can do whenI do any coaching. Yeah, that
makes sense. Yeah. And

I wouldn't name like I have the

I love that because often there aren't a lot
trans mass pleasure program,which is a coaching program. Two
other things that I've been thatI've been doing to I have a
trans masc 30 Plus connectionsgroup is what I called it. Yeah.
And it's a little bit like asupport group. But it's a little
bit different, because it is alittle more structured, we come

(46:31):
up with topics together. Andthat's like a 12 week group. And
again, like, the feedback I getis just how great it is to be in
community. And almost every timeI run that group, the folks in
the group have formed their own,whatever, by the time it's over,
like they have their discord, orthey have their I don't know, I

(46:52):
don't know what I you know,like, I'm like, please, like,
the whole idea is they want youto be connected to connect with
each other and feel good. Andthen the other thing that I've
been doing is this sexualpleasure program. And I've
actually been running it aslike, as just like a mini, like
a mini program with couples orstruggles or individuals who

(47:16):
just want to do this work withme, which is really similar to
the, it's like, I feel like thetools I was using for the trans
masc Like, they're really,really relatable to people who
have a trans or queer experienceand feel like their sexuality
and their identity, and theirexperience hasn't been centered.

(47:36):
And they're not getting enoughof what they need or want out of
their sexual. So those are theother two that I've also been
offering. THe queer one that'sbeen really fun to figure out
how to make that a greatresource for people.
of places that people can go toaccess that kind of information,

(48:00):
education or support. Yeah,right around the queer pleasure.
And it is a beautiful segue,because I was like, oh, we
should talk about your otherprograms, and then brought them
in, and I was like, beautiful.
That's exactly where I was gonnago next. Right? So I'm really
glad that you have thoseprograms, because I often see,
especially when people come outas queer, maybe a little later
in life, you know, they're like,Where do I even start from? How

(48:20):
do I even know what I like? Orwhat I don't like, while you
know, I'm terrified to havequeer sex for the first time?
Because what if I don't like it?
Or what if I'm supposed to docertain things? And I don't know
how to do them. Right. And nowthere are actually more
resources, you know, even so Ithink it was them. Or one of
that online magazines or thearticle on like, how to finger

(48:43):
somebody, right? Or how to fistsomebody? I remember. I mean,
when I came out, I don't know, along time ago, almost 30 years
ago. Now. There wasn't a lot ofinformation about queer sex, you
kind of Yeah, we all kind offumbled with each other, you
know, often, also, after a fewdrinks at the gay bar, right?
It's like, just not really anideal way, honestly, in my books

(49:07):
to find out about pleasure,right. And so there are more
resources, but I think there isa need for more. So tell me
about what you've noticed bydoing those programs in
centering pleasure. What kind ofshifts have you noticed, or what
kind of things people come inwith, like, where the folks who
come and join, for example, thequeer sexual pilot program, or

(49:29):
any of that kind of that kind ofwork?

Yeah, I mean, the people who've been
interested in it well, I guessI'll first say that I think that
there is also something reallyunique about queer sex versus
gay sex, but lesbian sex, sexualsex. And I also came out a very
long time ago. And there werelots of really great lesbian sex

(49:57):
books and yeah, was the idea.
And even I was that I wasfitting into I was a baby danke
it worked out well, I'm reallyglad I had access to those
resources. But they were veryspecific. And a lot of the, you
know, it is different have aqueer, queer experience where
you're, because it's not justthe like, the way that I think

(50:20):
about it is it's not just whoyou're attracted to. Right, but
that you're really invested inshipping different, right, like,
doing it a different way. Rightthat like, and, and so just like
naming that, that is, it's goingexperience, and there aren't as
many resources for that, becauseit is a little bit hard to

(50:41):
capture. I know that, thatyou've done some great resources
and MJ Barker's web site. Yeah,which I like often refer people
to, and to really appreciate it.
And so in a way, you know, like,like, speaking of like,
lineages, right? Like I like tobe building on the work that

(51:06):
you've done, and that you allcome together. And kind of like,
how do ways to like, translatethat and offer that in this
other. Like, it's like adifferent way of like, learning,
right? And so the people who'vecome, I'm interested in people
who are in long termrelationships, or like, you just
want something different to behappening, people who have never

(51:26):
had sex before, and I like, Idon't know, what I want to do.
People who have a queeridentity, and maybe started out
in a different place, like maybefrom a gender transition, or
just the experience of a sexualorientation transition, and are
like, I don't really know whereI am now, or what I want, or

(51:48):
people who are like, Oh, thishas been sex is fine, but I
don't actually want it to befine anymore. Like, I want to
put some energy into this, howdo I go about doing that. And so
even those, those are all reallydifferent experiences. The
beauty of what I've done it as agroup, right is like, being able

(52:11):
to hold each other in thosedifferent experiences. And then
when I deal with folksindividually, I get to really be
like, Okay, let's really focuson your needs and wants and
build this space together. Sothat it at least

that is so beautiful. And thank you for the
kind shout out and, you know, Ireally hear your that the
building of the, you know, kindof building on the work that's
come before, but also ourdifferent queer sexes, right?
Because like you said, yeah, andthere were a few things first,
like this kind of, you know,this resource doesn't really
speak to me, I remember really,when I discovered kind of Pat

(52:49):
Califia writing, and then CarolQueen, actually, I think it's
The Leather Daddy and the Femmeright was like, that was the one
that rocked my world. It wasbefore I was trans. And I was
like, This is the closest I'veever come to like, feeling like,
I'm not like the only person inthe world to feel how I'm
feeling. And to make sense, butof course, they're both kind of

(53:11):
pretty kinky, you know, verykeen focus, and not everybody,
it's not accessible foreverybody, for some folks that
like, when step too far fromwhere they are, or it's not
something they're interested in,or it's not their experience,
right. And so in a way, kind ofhaving a space, like the space
you're creating for people toreally think about, what do I
want my experience to be like?
What, what happens when actuallythe way we're back to the

(53:34):
beginning, right? What happenswhen we let go of this gender
binaries that trap us intocertain role, because for me,
queer sex is very much aboutlike, letting go of those gender
expectations, and not fall intothose roles that, you know,
culture, and society reallywants us to fall on really
easily, right? It's like thevery few times I like they did

(53:56):
fin folks. And just because I'musually attracted more to Muslim
folks, but one of theconversations like, Oh, I think
you're trying to do somegendered flirting thing that's
not working for me, that's notthe kind of masculine person I
am. And then it's reallyinteresting conversation, right?
Because some people are like,well, then I don't know what to

(54:18):
do. And I'm like, that's, thatyou need to understand that I'm
not responding to you the wayyou want me to respond to you
because this is not a turn onfor me. You know, and it's not,
it's just not a dynamic that Ifeel comfortable with. And just
because I present in this moremasculine way, it doesn't mean

(54:39):
that like, I enjoy, kind of, youknow, I was like, we were both
kind of family. So we'll have tofigure this out. Like, you know,
as a trans faggot, I'm like,yeah, if you do this, like Butch
femme dynamic, I'm not the butchso, right. They know where to go
with that. And to me, that'squeer sex right. It's like,

(54:59):
queer sexuality where you'relike, you can just assume you're
gonna know where I'm gonna fall,just because I looked a certain
way. And I don't know if that'ssomething that comes up when you
work with folks like that, thatcan be dissonance about like,
this is the way I feel aboutmyself. And this is the way I
access pleasure. But then thereare all these expectations,
right, that are put on us. So amI making sense? Or like,

yeah, what's coming up for me? Again,
it's just a little bit adjacenthis his how often people talk
about how hard it is to make it.
Right, and so that like, that,like sis, folks, and gay and
lesbian, sometimes have thesescripts that are available. And,
and that it's a lot of work tomake it up. And so I, I feel

(55:48):
like I'm like, Cool, we get tomake it up. Like then there's
like expansiveness andpossibility. And I've learned
that I also need to be like,let's talk about what it's like
that you have to make it up.
Right to like, make space forthat. And then I do think that

(56:09):
part of what I have to offer islike, Here are some ways you can
make it, right, because it ispretty overwhelming to like, to
really come up with it byyourself and figure out like,
what your sex is gonna looklike, without any guidelines, or
guidance, right. And so I don'tactually be kind of fun to write
up a specific thing. I don'thave that. But like, but a lot

(56:31):
of the tools that I offer areessentially helping people make
it up for themselves with like,support, right? Because the is
the daunting? Absolutely, yeah.
Especially if you don't haveexperience talking about sex as
most people don't, right? We'rethinking about it. Like you
don't have any of those tools.

(56:54):
You don't have, like a pleasuremodel for what it could look
like. It's, it's just like, it'shard work.

Absolutely. And it's a work of like authenticity
and vulnerability, and also thatcountercultural work that it's
okay to talk about sex actually,like, this does not need to be a
taboo subject, right. Which alsoleads us back to parenting, you
know, like, we brought up ourkids in a way were talking about
sex in a way that's ageappropriate, right, that change

(57:22):
over time. Also, we need to beprepared to have a different
conversation with our kids offive that are 20 years old,
right? Those are going to bedifferent conversations. But you
know, I was really passionateabout being sex affirming,
because I've even been broughtup in a pretty sex negative
culture where, you know, itwasn't quite gender divergent,
but close alone. Have you everseen that program by you know,

(57:45):
the grandma takes a flower andlike, French adapts in front of
the child and those like, canyou put it back together? Just
like no. And it's like, similarfor virginity, right? And that's
pretty much how it wasinculcated in me as well. And so
I was really passionate aboutbringing out kind of kids in a
sex affirming environment, wherethey're the location that was

(58:06):
age appropriate, where they knewthat they could talk about it.
But it's so countercultural,right? Even, you know, often,
and it's reinforced for popularculture, right? Like that, oh,
you can talk about sex with yourparents or with your kids. And
you don't want to know ifyou're, if they're having sex,
or if your parents are havingflags. And I'm like, why not?

(58:27):
Like, what is it with ourculture that we can accept that
this is, you know, because oftenand there is a piece about
accessing sexual pleasure forqueer folks as well, because
I've also worked with people arelike, well, you know, it's
really hard for me to have sexif the kids are in the house,
even if it's like a night andthe doors are closed, right? Or
is it like, just this kind of ano contraction that happens

(58:53):
around and almost anything withqueer sex even more so? Right?
It's like, something that has tobe really, really removed from
the kids. What if the kids youknow, see two people of the same
gender like kissing or evenlike, or even the soul like kink
or pride, tire discourse thatcomes up almost every year?

(59:13):
We're coming up to, ya know, I'mlike, I've heard the same
argument for 30 years, you know,I'm somebody who's always
brought like, my, my oldest,she's the one who's been with
Nero life to pride since she waslike a baby. You know, and it's
fine. Like, you know, if you seepeople dressed in kinky outfits,

(59:35):
it's like, that's an outfit justlike cosplay, you know, like,
and yeah, so some people feelsexy when they dress that way.
You know, some people feel goodabout themselves when the kids
are younger, right? When they'rea little bit older and they
understand what feeling sexymeans you can make some people
feel really good. It makes themfeel good about themselves. It's
grown up play, right, but Ithink people have so many

(59:58):
hangups and I think that's partof the issue right in some way
that you don't consider talkingabout sex as just a normal topic
of conversation.

Dr Damon Constantinides (01:00:09):
Yeah, yeah. And I, I think that it's
been a real gift that I lack inthis direction professionally,
because I just got so muchpractice that it just doesn't.
It's like there's like an ease.
And I forget, I do forgetsometimes that other people
don't have that. But I will namealso that I live in a community,

(01:00:31):
you know, that make differentchoices for where we end up,
right. And we always give upsomething. And we always like to
get something right. And so I'vegiven up and made intentional
choices to be in a veryaffirming community. And when I
have bottom surgery, everybody,yeah, I live on a block where

(01:00:53):
everybody knows that I'm trans,and they're supportive. They all
knew I was having bondingsurgery. And they were like, my
kid knew all my kids friendsknew her teacher knew, right.
And like, what I did is I taughtpeople how to talk about it. And
I did it because I didn't wanther to come into school and say
something and her teacher tofreak out and not know how to

(01:01:14):
navigate it, and therefore shuther down and shame. And so ever.
It was a three year process, itwas three different teachers
that like, during the parentteacher conference, I would say,
in April, I'm going to be havinga surgery, this is how we talk
about it. This is the languagethat we use. This is my
expectation for the classroom.

(01:01:36):
I'm here to answer any questionsright now that you have about
it. And just I really set it upis like totally normal. And I
think that was like a real giftfor not just my kid, but for
like, our community that it wasjust seen as something really
normal. Because it is not likerandom. And I think that is

(01:01:58):
related to like, just like thearachnophobia or like the fear
of sex in general. Connected toyou know, the transphobia
homophobia like it can only likeif it's not bad, then we don't
need to be afraid of it. And itis a skill to talk about it age
appropriately. And I wish we hadmore. I wish people had more

(01:02:20):
access to those resourcesbecause there are I mean,
there's some I mean, CorySilverberg some books oh my god,
amazing. I love clothes books.
Yeah. And like such a gift. Andyeah, like I, you know, and
though, and hopefully there'llbe more and more, right. Like,
there's definitely more thaneven when my kid was that she
was two there was like waythere's there's so much more

(01:02:41):
now. But But yeah, I do thinkthat that is something that is
hard for

Alex Iantaffi (01:02:46):
parents. Oh, absolutely. And Cory Silverberg
books are so good. I remember,with our oldest way to do a lot
of translating. So we found, youknow, the best books we could
like, it's perfectly normal, andthose other books, that kind of
my age, but then we had to do alot of addition. And even as we
got to the third book, she woulddo her own right, oh, they're

(01:03:06):
not talking about trans peoplehere, or they're not, you know,
they're making this assumptions,you know, because, you know, and
I think that's a big part islike, how do we normalize
talking about pleasure in everyway, and also that pleasure, and
I think that's very anticapitalists in some ways, right?
Because capitalism doesn't wantus to center embodiment and

(01:03:28):
pleasure. It wants us to buypleasure, right from other
sources, because that servescapitalism, but actually free
learn that we can, we can accesspleasure in any moment, when we
drink a refreshing glass ofwater on a hot day. Like, oh, a
shower, when you be like,outside and getting hot and
sticky. hugging a tree, youknow, eating a ripe peach, and

(01:03:51):
having delicious queer sex.
There are all different ways ofaccessing pleasure, right? But
that doesn't serve capitalism.
And so it makes sense to me thatit's not in the current over
cultures, interests for us tonormalize talking about
pleasure, and now we can beaccessible, and now we can be
embodied and, and access all ofthis in any moment. If we are.

(01:04:16):
If we know that we can, right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I, I also, I
feel like one of the things thatI would do is actually write in
those books. So like, it'sperfectly normal, like, my own
little like, black Sharpie,like, yeah. And Tango Makes
Three is a little bitpathologizing. So I went in, I

(01:04:39):
went in, I fixed it, right. Andso I mean, I knew that just to
give parents permission to dothat, that like, you know, like,
you can, you can just fix it.
And then now now, that's what'snormal for your kid.

Exactly. And, you know, kind of and we know just
for our I just want to add justfor folks who don't know, that
actually talking about sex withour kids like an age appropriate
way as the graph doesn't makethem upset sooner. It doesn't
make them explore and like,because actually they know the
answers. And so they're no rushto grow up. You know, when I

(01:05:18):
prepare my kids would like hear.
So it's like, if you have allthe information, you don't have
to like whisper about it on theplayground, right? Because and
so it takes away that curiositythat maybe put some young people
in even dangerous situationssometimes, right? If they're not
aware about manager. And so I'vebecause I think sometimes
parents are worried right ofexposing their kids too early,

(01:05:40):
but actually often say, if youhaven't made it really common,
you know, because I like not touse the word normal, but
normalized, to talk to your kidsabout sex by the time they're
10. After that, it's too late.
And people are like, wow, andI'm like, Yeah, because your
kids are gonna go through thatawkward phase where your parents

(01:06:02):
are the last people. And most ofmy kids definitely went through,
they're like, Yeah, I can talkabout this with anybody to talk
about this with any adults, andusually is that middle school
age, right from hand 11 to 1415,sometimes a little later,
they're not going to want totalk to you about it. But if
you've already given them thebasic information, the resources

(01:06:24):
that eventually you know, theyget out of that awkward
embarrassment, they can comeback around to it, I know that
you can be a resource. But ifyou miss that window, I think
it's really hard.

Yeah, and, and I think I feel like
comprehensive sexualityeducation is something that I
can't believe we're stilltalking about. But I know. I
mean, like, it makes sense thatin a country where we, some
people don't believe in science,right? Because it is, it's there
is like data, right? Like thebadass what that is. That is how
people have the best experienceswith sex. Because when there's

(01:07:01):
comprehensive sexuality,education, and sometimes they do
in the past, I've done myparenting workshops. And one of
my favorite questions I like toask, particularly people with
little kids and babies is like,what kind of sex life do you
want your child to have? Whenthey're in adults? And people?
What do you mean, I was like,what because what that looks
like, when an adult starts likenow, it starts now with their

(01:07:25):
understanding of your body withlike, dispelling shame, with
like, meeting them where theyare, right. Like, that's how
they're going to have whateversucks, like, you're hoping
they'll have this in adults.

Absolutely. And it starts with us having done
our work, right. I rememberwriting this column for by
Community News, I was stillliving in the UK, about the, you
know, being loud during tax.
Now, that was a parent, right?
And like, not like, what does itmean? Oh, my God, what if you
know, so many parents areworried? What if my child over

(01:07:58):
hears me? And I mean, at thetime, my kid was a baby, so
hustling wasn't even an issue.
But I was starting to thinkabout it, like, well, well,
yeah, maybe I was even justpregnant. It was very early on
in my parenting journey. And,and that's one of the things I
was thinking about is like,well, what if my child
overhears, like, that's okay.

(01:08:19):
Like, sex shouldn't bepleasurable, right. It's like,
it's not a dirty thing. It isnot a damaging thing. Actually,
it's only a damaging pain. If weframe sacks as that, and you
know, that has to be kept kindof private, and we don't talk
about it. And actually, that isreally sets kids up to being

(01:08:40):
vulnerable, potentially, forsexual abuse, because right,
they've learned that this issomething we don't talk about,
and we keep secret, then whenthat kind of child sexual abuse
happens, which we know iswidespread, and they happen,
they they're very vulnerable toan adult say, this is private,
you know, don't tell anybody ordon't tell your parents if it's

(01:09:02):
not a parent, or don't tell youryou know, anyone else because
it's a secret, right? And thenit's reinforced by society. And
so it's not just, it's actuallypotentially damaging. And I
think it forces kind of thisculture of Stranger danger when
we know that danger is mostlyinside the home. Oh, my God, I
feel like I could have I feellike I could do all other

(01:09:25):
podcasts episode on parenting,and maybe we should maybe we
should think about doing one ofthose because I do have a lot of
feelings about it. But I want tobe respectful of your time. So I
always ask the guest, is thereanything we haven't talked
about? I know we went throughother different directions,
which was really fun because youdo a lot of work that's really

(01:09:47):
close to my heart, and I'm sograteful for your contributions
to the field. But is thereanything that we haven't covered
that you were hoping to talkabout today?

I think I just want to brand new and
like, like a deep importance ofintersectionality, which I
haven't haven't really used thatlanguage to talk about today.
And it feels important to me,because so much of the work I do
is like on the shoulders ofdisabilities, black indigenous

(01:10:22):
color, like, just like namingthat the way that I work, or the
way that I'm reaching the worldis not that that like, I think
it's like, if we like reallylook back to the title of that
book really kind of radicallymarginalized, right like that,
like, we are, like these, theexperience of organization is
this really connected, and likeit needs it needs to be and so

(01:10:44):
when I'm, when I'm doing, youknow, what I'm doing sex
coaching with somebody, andlike, all of that is in the
room. If we're talking abouttransphobia, then we're also
talking about all these otherexperiences, and now they're
connected. And I love that youbrought up capitalism and like,
brought that in, right? And, andjust like kind of holding that,

(01:11:10):
like, I feel like naming thatthat big frame. This isn't that
sexism separate from that. Andneither is transmits, right,
like, those are, those areconnected. Just wondering that.
And then the other thing that Ireally want to name is that I
really do feel like, the morethat I bring magic into my work,

(01:11:36):
and like sacredness, like themore I'm able to offer and the
more people are able to get outof it. So just like naming that
frame of like, I do think ofhumans as sacred and not just
humans, but life. But like ifwe're gonna get specific, like
transmis and weirdness, and thatthere's something like so

(01:11:57):
beautiful, in those experiencesthat have gotten so covered up
by the experience ofmarginalization, and love when
we get to, like sink in andreally find it again. Yeah,
that's

really beautiful.
And they're really Yeah, thatspeaks to my soul, as well as
somebody who was like reallyintegrated different aspects of
my work more and more over theyears, you know, which, that's
come from a place of privilege.
As I've become more senior inthe field, I feel less worried
about like being the whole ofmyself, right. And also, as

(01:12:32):
they've been more and more transand queer voices and just more
expansiveness in the field thatmade it easier. And I love that
you brought the framework ofintersectionality. Because
absolutely love what we talkabout is so impacted from our
lenses, but even more so fromthose systems of power,

(01:12:52):
privilege and oppression, youknow, that it's we cannot talk
about sex or, or gender withouttalking about those other
aspects. 100%. So thank you forbringing that in. Well, like I
said, I could keep talking withyou, they feel like your work is
just so wonderful. And you know,talking of which, you know, I

(01:13:14):
will have all the links in theepisode description. But if
people wanted to find out moreabout you your work where you
offer, where should where shouldthey go? Where should they look
for you? Sure.

The easiest place is my website,
which is drdamonc.com. Turns outmy last name was a little much
to have a website. And so that'swhere I have all my offerings.
And I tend to do my groups twoto four times a year, and so

(01:13:52):
there's always an opportunity tosign up to the waitlist. And so
if you if you do that, for anyof the groups that I offer,
you're then the first peoplethat I turn to when I open up
the next, like the next cohortunder registration. And then the
other places on my Instagram,which is dr..damonc And that

(01:14:23):
those tend to be the two placeswhere I post things. I do have a
newsletter. I'm on my secondyear of the newsletter, and it's
usually it's usually one tothree emails a month. One to two
of them is usually some writingpiece that I've done around
queer, trans pleasure. And thenthe other one is often something

(01:14:47):
about whatever I'm offering thatmonth.

Dear listeners I hope that today, you've
resonated with some of ourconversation that this is gonna
lead you to think about whereyou find your own pleasure and
whether you are trans or queeror not really inviting you into
expansiveness and joy andfinding a way to access your own
embodiment and your ownpleasure. And so until next

(01:15:11):
time, take care of yourself andI hope that you find some way to
feel pleasure today.

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