“In The Midnights Era” (w/ Jenifer Lewis)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look man, oh I see you? Why why? And look
over there? How is that culture? Yes, goodness, lost culture.
You'll notice that my voice is a little shop what's that? Oh? Sorry? Yeah,
go ahead, I said in their Midnight Sarah. But go ahead,
explain your voice, okay, before we talk about sort of

(00:23):
the big culture news of the week I have. You'll
notice that the timbre of my voice is troublesome, and
I apologize. What is going on? Give nodulespocal nodules? I
don't think so. I think. I think I'm coming back.
I was sitting in the steam room here in Rekya, Vik, Iceland,
and I think it helped because sometimes in movies they

(00:44):
ask you to scream a lot, and then sometimes after
you scream, they have you run away. Yeah, as fast
as you can. More on that later, More on that
in a year after you see this film. But um
it sometimes it's hard. Sometimes after it's hard. I have
to tell you, as someone who just um for an
upcoming project that is yet to be announced, had to

(01:05):
use his voice a lot. The vocals are an instrument.
It's actually real culture number seventy. The vocals are instrument.
Are an instrument, and you have to protect the gift. Now,
speaking of a gift, someone who truly has a gift.
You said a queen of a certain queen of pop
has a new song. Oh my god. Yes, the queen

(01:25):
of pop as we all know is Hailey Steinfeld Ospit
Army calabasas Resident Hailey stein And she has a new
song called I Believe It's Coast with Anderson Pack and
it's stellar. I came out like a month ago, and
I kind of like brushed it to the side. I
was like, ash dure, I'll listen to it later, like
I'm I'm over here, I'm a I'm a you know,
love myself girl, like I love that era. I'm a Stanfeld.

(01:49):
I literally am such a Stanfeld, like capital letters bitch,
the way I will play capital letters down. It's an
excellent song. Did you ever catch her song for the
Bumblebee movie called Back to Life? That It's crazy that
that did not make the Great Cool West Long Buck.
I don't think there has been someone with this big

(02:10):
of an impact on music. I don't think there's been
such a queen of pop since Rita Aura. I was
gonna say Ava Max, Well it wait, can we say
Ava Max has a new song and its samples, Can't
Fight the Moonlight with Leon Rhymes and let me tell
you something, Maxinistas are eating breakfast, lunch and dinner in

(02:32):
the words of Colin Farrell Sex Tape With this one,
the vocals are giving you everything you could desire from
one of the girls. The production is top notch and
the Maxinistas there is a sale at your at your
favorite store. There really is. There's a sale at your
favorite store. Oh my god. Where to work that? In?
Way to work the lost culture? Is this phrase into that?

(02:54):
I mean the word bop has been used. You know,
I did not watch the amaze Did you watch them? No?
Because I find them to be totally irrelevant And then
then and then and then some All it takes is
one person. There could be people at the vim as,
There could be a hundred people in the room at
the VMAs, and none of them, nine of them make
them irrelevant. Well, I would say I was gonna say that.

(03:15):
There seemed to be some effort in trying to make
them iconic again this year, like a lot of a
lot of the press leading up to it was like
Nicki Minaj and you know, l O cool J and
one other person we're co hosting. Yeah, sorry to the
third person, I forget who it is. But like that
was like there was a lot of like hype around, like,

(03:37):
oh my god, the vs could be iconic again. Um,
a lot of recap throwback videos of like what was
your favorite like iconic VMA moments and the red carpets
were I think great, this was a good red carpet.
I would say I would agree for what I've seen
was good. Also, anytime there is an iconic same sex
kiss on the v M as like you know it's

(03:58):
gonna garner headline. Congrats to bad Bunny for wearing our
culture as a custome. Um. But I would say probably
the most iconic moment outside of Dove Cameron winning Best
New Artist had to be when Taylor Swift, in an
acceptance speech for Video of the Year, which was well
earned for all too well, turned her damn face to

(04:22):
the crowd and announced her and then Bowen Yang. We
were thrust head first into the Midnight's era with a
Da Vinci code cipher to unlock what do you think
the clues are? What do you think the clues are giving?
This is what I'm forecasting for the storm ahead, and

(04:46):
I want to say something. I have a history of
being right about this stuff because I actually predicted reputation,
and I predicted predict you did you? Okay, well, let's
just back it up. Respect. Why I feel like there's
disrespect come in my way? There's no disrespect. I just
want to I just want to make sure that we

(05:06):
don't give ourselves too much credit, because I think you
did not predict reputation. You said, I've heard from sources.
No no, no no no no no no no no
no no no no no no no no. You mistake
yourself in the words of Hamilton's because what happened was
when all of the stuff went down with Kanye and
Kim and Taylor, I said, I predicted. I'm like, her

(05:28):
next phase, her next iteration is going to be dark Taylor.
I'm telling you, I said, she's going to commit to
the villain. In the words of Diana Jenkins, you want
a villain here, I am, You're really I just gotta say,
Matt isn't top form. He's quoting the right quotes, but
I just want to say that you're the prediction was

(05:49):
that one? You were like, well, first it was dark Taylor. Sure,
and then you were like, I would like her to
give I think she's gonna give Pat Benatar, which I
don't think she did. No, but rock sound immage, big
sound made means sound like a rock okay, And then
I think, finally you did land on. Sources have told
me that her next album is moving in a hip

(06:10):
hop direction, which I did not have sources at the time.
I wasn't as plugged into the Hollywood machine as I
am now, as an as you and I are, of
course on the A list, I wasn't as plugged into
the Hollywood machine as I am now. I didn't have sources.
So if I did say sources told me, I was
simply lying. You and I, Oh my god, Yeah, what

(06:30):
a what a long way we've come with Taylor. It's
like it's like us j Lo. Then that's like the
most wild Oh my wait, we we hold on a second. First,
we we are getting into that. But when can I
say one thing can I make a prediction about? And
then I would like to hear if you think this
is moving in the right direction. Yeah, the aesthetic and

(06:54):
the vibes I'm feeling for me, it's giving lost in
translation and being such great Heights postal service. It's giving
death Cab vibes. It's giving that feeling of early aughts.
It's giving maybe even a little something corporate. It's giving

(07:14):
still continuation of Emo Taylor, but what happened when that
got a little electronic. It's giving sleepless nights literally in
the theme. Can we just talk about how the theme
is genius, just like the like the way that no
one has like zoned in on something that specific. I'm
really into it and really, yes, the character will reform

(07:39):
in this type of music. How do you feel about that?
That's great? I I am in total agreement. I was
telling you that from the aesthetics from the two promo
photos we've seen, I was like, we might be getting
like nineties arts rock, sad boy anthems, sad girls, sad
today's anthems. Death habit is perfect. I would love if

(08:00):
she sprinkled in a little bit of Chris per Rabbit
and there are some dashboard king. It might be none
of those things, but I'm excited that it's a Fall
Taylor album because guess what, we kind of had a
revisitation during Red Taylor's version. I'm saying folklore and evermore
were summer and winter. We're getting fall. We're getting new

(08:22):
fall Taylor for the first time in years, in years,
five years to be exact. Let's not forget the power
that Taylor has during autumn. Oh my god, there will
be a single before sept I will say this because Mama,
I know, wants to be in the Grammy conversation for

(08:43):
this year. It's giving shake it off vibes where that
single came and was nominated for a Record of the
Year and then the album Album of the Year was
won the next year. Correct, And I feel as though
we will get a sing goal. I don't know how soon,
but I think within the month. And that probably is

(09:07):
necessary because and I know you have thoughts about this,
the date of October one is quite always a way,
quite always the way. It is the traditional area of
release for Taylor pre Lover, and I think that's important.
This is her tenth album. She she does not We're

(09:30):
not gonna it's not gonna be until album thirteen do
we get something this major. You're right, she knows that
this is going to be big. And I'm telling you
in agreement. It's the centennial in a way. The concept
is genius. It's genius. We've all stayed up at the

(09:50):
strike at the stroke of twelve, going wow, my thoughts
are the most internal and private at this time. And
and and this is and it's it's giving range of
emotion and experience. It can be sad anthems, it can
be party bops, it can be she can she can
play what she can play with all her colors, basically
of the wind. And I really think that also it

(10:14):
is in the midnight hour, and I think the title
of up is in the midnight's era, in the midnight's era.
And it is at this time that we realize, in
being kept up by these thoughts, what is truly important
to us, what is preoccupying us. Therefore, there is the immediacy,

(10:34):
the lyrical immediacy that we are about to get. Do
you understand, everyone out there listening, do you understand that
we are about to get likely a tour in the
summer and in the past four albums, rumor has it,
it's about the it encapsulates the past four albums. We're
getting lover more, Lover, lover more. Ever, midnights we are

(11:00):
getting and I want everyone to really grab onto something
right now before I say this, it's giving, Spring, Summer, fall, Winter.
It is giving. Literally, if we are to put together
a set list of like the five best of all
those four albums, and let me direct, because I have
ideas about how to transition from starting Big Summer tour

(11:24):
right big summer stadium tour. Start with Lover right, open
with cruel Summer fucking let the girls have the cruel
summer moment that we never got to open the tour.
It's go through the highlights of Lover. End with the
song Lover transition into Folklore, the lights come down, the

(11:47):
Mason Jars co up, give me five. From Folklore transition
into Evermore, we see the energy started to get a
little bit more sexy and witchy. Slap us in the
head with whatever is happening on a nights on Core
Greatest Hits, the way we're about to eat. I'm sorry,
m M. Do you feel this way? I feel this way?

(12:10):
I I really I'm trying to not hang up too
many expectations because I know that Taylor will not only
exceed them, but subvert them. And I don't want to
be wrong. I don't want to be embarrassed when it comes.
I am smiling big and holding back at last, because
do you know what I realized the listeners think, the
readers think right now, they think that Jennifer Lewis is

(12:32):
just sitting there while we do this, and this is
our intro, that Jennifer Lewis is just sitting there. That
the Jennifer Lewis episodes are called in the Midnight's era
it show biz legend being co opted by Taylor's Swift.
She would have screamed into this conversation. She would have, Oh, yeah,
do you think Jennifer Lewis would call Taylor Swift a

(12:54):
quote crazy motherfucker? I think you think Jennifer Lewis, I
think I think that's the compliment that's the highest. And
so let's just say Jennifer is not here right now,
because well do you want to say, I'll say okay.
So I had hubristically thought that I could record this
episode because I was not going to one miss the
episode with Jennifer Lewis or so I intended for the world,

(13:16):
and too, I did not want to reschedule her too abruptly.
So I had suggested a slight scheduling change. Um, but
it was gonna be the day that I was traveling
and I didn't realize what the dates were until you know,
it was coming up on the day and thought I
could record from the lounge. This goes into my I

(13:36):
don't think so, honey later. Um uh, it's it's the airport.
Airports aren't a crisis right now, let's just say it,
but specifically one airport is the most egregiously bad airport
and we need to stop pretending like it's a fun
place to go. More on that later. Um And anyway,
I could not make it. I had to FaceTime Matt

(13:57):
and A in emotional duress last minute say I think
you gotta do this alone, but I have faith in you.
And I was like, and I honestly want to listen
to a one on one conversation between you and Jennifer
people as post stars, as scene partners. Yeah, I loved
my conversation with her, and I missed her so much
and I'm so lucky to call her my friend. And like,

(14:18):
I was looking really forward to introducing you to her
and seeing guys dynamic. But I think you'll really enjoy
the episode. So that's coming up in just a bit.
Everybody but Bowen and I wanted to get on because
I just did. It didn't sit right in my spirit,
not having you on that episode at all. I said,
it just didn't sit right in my spirit. I need
to connect with the Diva doll. And then the way

(14:41):
that Taylor like sort of introduced the concept of the
Midnight's Era to the world, I was like, Okay, so
I'm feeling like God is good and now we needed
to wait. Yeah, and I'm so glad we did. And
that's how that God is in the room. And I
need to say that. Um. Jennifer is promoting her new

(15:01):
book Walking By Join These Streets, fantastic fantastic book, a
follow up memoir to her best selling memoir The Mother
of Black Hollywood. I read through it, loved it so
many wonderful stories. It's undeniable that it's just coming from
her truth like she it's it's her voice like throughout
the whole thing. And Um, there's a fun, beautiful cosmic

(15:25):
connection to ch Angela, between Angela and her and Angela
and this podcast because it is also the other the
only other time that Matt has had to host this
podcast solo, and I think it's very special and without
spoiling anything, listen to the end for a treat Okay,
listen to the end for a treat um. But before
we get into that, there are just current events really

(15:47):
are happening as we speak this week because we have
to discuss this don't worry Darling situation. So for the
readers who are illiterate on this particular pop culture news item,
that don't worry Darling press tour. God is not in
the room on this one. God is not on the
zoom calls. God is not in the uh, he's not

(16:11):
on the pr team. I thought this movie looked incredible
when the trailer came out. I love a you know,
it feels like it's like some dark sci fi satire.
I love the cast. I loved Book Smart Mama. The
way that this press tour is falling apart, no one

(16:34):
can get along. There are no real heroes and villains.
Maybe Florence is the only one that kind of comes
out of this, comes out of this looking the least ridiculed.
Florence is because because she's removed herself entirely from it. Okay,
So for everyone that doesn't know, basically, it all started
when Jason sudeikis served Olivia Wilde with custody papers while

(16:57):
she was like, you know, speaking at convention for Don't
Worry Darling, So she sort of had, you know, the
press and like the the whole like media narrative was
very much on her side because he did this horrifying
thing to her and he claims it wasn't on purpose,
but I don't know about all that. Yeah. So then

(17:19):
it's like, there's the rumors that Florence doesn't like Olivia
because Olivia started sleeping with Harry Styles on the set
of Don't Worry Darling, and Florence is very close with
Jason Sudeikis because Zach Braffe is a director on Ted Lasso,
and Florence hasn't posted about the movie, and Harry is
like not having the easiest time PR wise right now

(17:40):
because of the queer you know, baiting or what have you,
and his lack of um intelligence when he speaks on
that subject. Sorry everybody, but that's what it is. And
then Olivia does that like big article and I guess
variety or something she did like a big piece, which
were you not talking about? How like, oh, like you
would think that's a good pr choice for her to

(18:02):
do Variety for her to be um to to do
something in a trade so that one she can be
regarded as this director who is really having this wonderful
project come to light with all this press that she
has to do damage control over. But then the piece
kind of I don't know, it's it's like maybe what

(18:26):
the movie is trying to like portray, which is that
like things are not what they seem and sometimes the
aesthetics of something really don't communicate that much at all. Like,
but I think that's like what I'm taking away from
all this is that like these people are ultimately actors.
I don't know, I just I just think that, like
it's like like okay, So basically fast forward to this

(18:48):
Olivia mentions that she had fired Chila buff from the
Hairy Styles World because she has a no assholes policy,
which woo who we love that very novel idea. Um
as if like you're you can be in control of
people's personalities in Hollywood. Um. And then uh Shaya comes

(19:10):
out and sends to Variety directly these receipts, these emails,
these notes, this video of Olivia driving, which iconically starts
out with her going sha a shay a, Shaya sorry,
I'm study from riding my horse and I'm like, girl,
you've lost us already. I'm already you've lost the thread

(19:32):
with the I mean like it's so I mean, like, say,
what a Shaya is a monster and truly despicable, but
also like, and this is not to compare anybody's behavior,
but it's like Olivia got caught in a lie after
she did this whole women are the future, you know,
peace in variety um where she basically throws Florence unto

(19:54):
the bus and says Florence has to come to Missflow
has to come to her senses. It's so weird and
everyone is so fucking icky. I will think ultimately the
fatal flaw that she made. And again, I will definitely
see this movie. And I actually heard the script is

(20:15):
so so I don't think that this is good for it,
but I will say I'm still going to see it
because well, first of all, I love Florence Pew and
I think she's fabulous, and I was gonna see the
movie and I will see it still. But this is
the problem is it's if you're gonna do a big
piece like that, it's one thing to lie to your

(20:38):
actors to manage them, you know what I mean, Like
if you need to say to Hyla Buff, look, I
really need to want you in the movie. Still I
get it, Like like Florence is difficult. If you need
to say that to him, two things, don't put that
in writing or on video. And two like, understand that
if you said that to him, and this is someone

(20:59):
that has nothing to lose at this point, and then
you try to try out a story that's a lie
and that and you misrepresent the truth, he might say
something about it, and he did. So what you've done
is you've made it public that you were condescending about
your OSCAR nominated lead actress and diminishing of her. So, ultimately,

(21:25):
if I'm Florence Pew, I don't want to promote this
movie either. Why because she values herself as a professional
and propress his work, and this work environment has become
unprofessional and toxic. So she's gonna do venice I heard,
and then do nothing else, which I say that feels

(21:46):
right to me. This director is she's just not running
the stuff. Well, no, it's there's some contempt there or whatever.
Not to sound like I know what I'm talking about.
Like it's it's really really a bummer. I don't love
thinking about it. Um. I was talking about it with
some friends and this is not I'm sorry. I don't

(22:08):
mean to make this about me, but someone was like,
you should do that would be an iconic lips think
if you lips ink to the video like I mean, yeah,
back in the day, bow and yang like one, I
would have bow and yang one point I would have done.
I'm sorry, I'm sweaty from riding my horse. I you

(22:29):
know I still love. I still love dreams because all
roads lead back to morning show. I still have dreams,
stress dreams sometimes that I'm gonna meet Reese weather Spin
and who's gonna be like, I know you recorded my
giving her a twin. She'll be like, you did that
lips that give me getting arrested. Maybe I think maybe
she's seen it, and maybe she doesn't like it because
it as a terrible moment in her life. I think

(22:50):
that everyone should have a sense of humor about the
things that go wrong. And also, I I will say
till the day I died, that is when I really
started stand me too. Because the next day she goes
on the morning shows. The next day she goes in
the morning shows and played it perfectly where she was like,
I was drunk, I was stupid. And then and then
they were like you said you were pregnant. You pregnant.

(23:11):
She goes, No, I don't know said that pregnant legend.
I love that. Yeah, I mean it was immediate accountability,
which it's not like we see people taking it. And
also like that, I mean it was a teachable moment.
It was someone like really leaning on her white privilege.

(23:35):
I mean that was crazy. Like if that had happened now,
I think she would have gotten a lot of hell.
But you know what I mean, Like, I think that
it's an lipting opportunity that you absolutely, as the king
of liptings at the time, couldn't just pass up. Maybe
maybe I will still do I love it. Maybe I
get Maybe I get in there. No no, no, maybe

(23:55):
I get in there. This iconic woman. I'm not gonna
like work with her whatever. I don't know that that's true.
The thing is like, and here's the thing. It's like
I'm not saying Olivia Wild And this is the annoying
part of no, no, no, that's what we're saying. There's
a lot like piling, like the Twitter pylon is too much,
as it always is, but you can't have some nuance

(24:16):
as you look at this situation and go oh man,
like that is a sign of bad directing where you
know you're you're you're just being subterfugi about like everybody
and you're you're lying and you're not making sure your
actors are like taken care of. Yeah. I will say
that the email that Shaya made public was so like

(24:40):
Namas stay. It was so like, hey, I hope you're
so well. You should see my daughter grow anyway you
lie or here are the receipts and then to drop
them off and then literally end up being like, I
truly hope the best for you. I was like, Mama,
this is Housewives. It's giving the real Housewives of wherever

(25:01):
they shot that film Palm Springs. Lisa Arenna could never
Lisa Wrenna could never, which we briefly talked about jl
firing Virgos from do you not hear about this? No?
Tell me all about it? Oh my god. She fired
Virgos just because she doesn't like virgo energy. So Heather Morris,

(25:25):
who famously played Britney Espierce, unkly who was famously before
that backup ancer for so many people Beyonce JL set
on a podcast interview recently, then JL hates Virgos and
has fired people on her I think not her staff,
but definitely her backup dancing or just people on her

(25:49):
her dancers basically for being virgos, which is that is iconic, iconic,
the perfect time to mention that we're in Virgo season.
This is is lining up so perfectly after Renissans comes out,
after a song called Virgo's Groove is in all of
our minds. I mean literally, the world's most famous virgo
is stomping the yard right now, stopping the yard after

(26:11):
JL is doing a fake plantation wedding where you know,
she um like, there's just so much going on here,
and I think it's all fantastic. And this is not
to say that like I think any less of JLO.
It's just it's just so crazy how all of this

(26:32):
is happening. The JLO news of the past two years
has been sumptuous. Yeah, I mean, she's certainly in an era.
I mean she's in her she's in her benefit two
point l era, she's in her post hustlers. I didn't
get the nomination. So fuck y'all. I did the Super Bowl.
She's in She's in her post apex apex. Yeah, that's

(26:54):
what is happening. She is in her chares Ard. But
your chars Ard is your apex. Now she's back to
char Mander. And you think she's that char Mander, you
think she's all, you think she's a again. I'm just
thinking she's a chars Are. But the chars are like,
don't don't spit fire the way that he You know
what she's giving, she's giving cranky Charis remember when the

(27:18):
Big Bill. Basically the moral lesson of that era of
Pokemon was that Ash allowed char Million to evolve too early,
and so remember when Ash had to like sucking asshole
but literally get rude, cranky, Like literally Charles was giving

(27:40):
diva behavior like it was giving not doing what was told.
It was very much giving, barely even coming out of
the poke ball as if it was a goddamn trailer
on the Sony lot. And Charis Art says, I won't
come out of my poke ball, not for no one.
I said, get the director to come to me. Meanwhile,
you have like fucking professionals, you have piggiotos waiting in

(28:02):
their balls. Florence Pugh's just being like, Hi, um, you're
making this a toxic environment. You're I'm not doing press
for you. Wait. Literally, there is no actress that gives
Piggioto more than Florence Pew And I am so proud
there you really she really does give Piggioto and Piggioto

(28:25):
is I. I remember when when I had a pigeon.
I was just gonna say, like when my Pokemon Piggioto
was evolving to Pigot, I was like, I know this
is something beneficial to me, but like, I don't want
this girl here. I'd rather have Piggioto, Like that's my
diva doll. Like that's personally for me, my girl. Yeah,

(28:49):
Like I understand kids have to grow up, but in
so many words, I don't think so, honey. You know
what I'm saying. I think I do. I really think
I do well. Which speaking of that, because you will
not be able to join me for this next um
segment of the podcast, because it's my really great interview
with Jennifer Lewis. You did not get to do and

(29:10):
I don't think so, honey. Would you like to do
it now because I know something that's on your mind,
spirit and heart. I would love to then at this
time I will ready the phone, which is how I
keep time for I don't think so, honey. This is
Bowen Yang's early a third of the way into the episode,
and I don't think so, honey. This really doesn't happen
very often. But it's happening today tonight wherever you're listening

(29:32):
to this, and it's time starts now. I don't think so, honey.
John F. Kennedy International Airport, every damn terminal, everything about
this fucking place. Why did we ever think for a
second that it was any better, any measure better than
LaGuardia was ten years ago. LaGuardia is that girl now,

(29:54):
make no mistake. LaGuardia is a pleasure to have in
class now that she's undergone the reserv renovation. But John F.
Kennedy has always been garbage. It's horrible to get to
no matter how you get the only the big draw
of it now is to go to the tw A Hotel. Honey.
I don't want to be in a Stanley Kubrick movie,
you bitch. I want to fly out of there. And

(30:17):
why did you make it so difficult for me to
just find a lounge to go to and have a
private quiet spot to record my podcast with legend, Hollywood
legend Jennifer Lewis, my best friend's co star, Jennifer Lewis.
Terminal seven is the worst, worst, worst, worst part of
New York City period, the worst people, the worst fucking

(30:39):
place to be. Oh my god, you had been there
with me. If you had been there with me that
day trying to figure out how to get into that
damn lounge, you would have snapped along with me because
it's that flop International Lounge, right, it's the flop International Lounge,
but they make it fucking hell. They you solve ten

(31:01):
fucking bridge troll riddles to get inside. I went through security.
Then they said because I had my my my boarding
past for this international flight print printed from my original
uh place whatever. I won't get into it, but they
were like, you need a written letter of permission at
the British Airways Satellites Lounge, which is fucking trash dealt.

(31:21):
It will forever be that girl. You can never be
Delta Lounge, you can never be American Express Centurion Lounge.
It was disgusting. It's run by all these gate keeping.
Motherfucker's literal gate keeping is that it's worst at the lounges.
Shall we say, I'm sorry. I know it's hacked to
complain about air air travel, but it was it what

(31:42):
it is, what it is. It's like, you can't it's
not hack if it's like a universal human experience that,
for whatever reason, everyone hates traveling via air. I don't
blame Taylor sometimes for flying the job. I'm serious JFK.
I had to tell Wait Matt literally for Simmon's Baseball.
I had to tell I had to tell people on

(32:03):
our team, on our management team. It was like, no
more flying out of JFK, nomber flying in or I
was like LaGuardia is LaGuardia as the default from going forward.
It's it's I'm a JFK girl. No, I think I
think it's just because I think it's just because I
can be so autopilot there now, because I fly in

(32:24):
and out of there so much that I don't have
to literally at all, even look up from from like
I can just go, go, go, go, go and go
exactly what I want to go and get on the
plane because I don't want any nonsense. But honestly, I
do have to see what LaGuardia is giving now post renovation,
because I haven't seen it. It's giving everything that can

(32:45):
be given and gotten. It's giving clamor, it's giving beautiful
water features. Matt. I know you fly Delta. The Delta
terminal JFK is decent. But if you think about if
your gate is fucking be of any five or whatever,
the funk if your number is in the double digits,
the walk is gang. You are walking and you can't

(33:09):
at a certain point, you can't. You can't do that. No,
I literally you are actually slaying when you say this,
because there have been times where I'm like, it's like
twenty minute walk to get there. It's a it's crazy. Yeah,
LaGuardia has it figured out. Fear. There's this new girl

(33:29):
in town. She's not so new, she just went through
a makeover. Fiarello. LaGuardia Airport, the school and the airport
are pumping out hits, planes and talent. LaGuardia is in
her Terry Hatcher Desperate Housewives era. Absolutely yeah, Guaria is

(33:55):
Desperate house Era again. It's so hacked. My last two
out of my last three and thinks to have been
about airports. But this has been my life recently and
it's my reality. And take it to court. Okay, take
it to court. Okay. Before we get into this Jennifer
Lewis interview, we do want to break some news that
we said online, but we just want to stay it

(34:16):
here on the podcast. The the Katies Era is complete.
That is no longer what you are all called. You
are the readers again. We celebrate and support everyone who
really tried to make the Katies Era sing, but we
have decided to bail on it. And that's okay because
we never have made any other mistakes doing this podcast,

(34:38):
so it's okay. This was our first. I wouldn't say
that was a mistake even No, you're right, and I'm
sorry to us for saying that. No, sorry to us,
and I will say kind of in a spicy statement.
It seemed pretty split, and not even split evenly, but
there was just a I will say, a vocal minority
that was like no. And then we announced that Katie's

(35:01):
was no more. The less vocal majority finally found their voice,
shall we say, and said wait, I wait, I didn't
I liked it, but sometimes the vocal minority wins, and
that is not but let me be clear, let me
be clear, this is not customer service. Okay, this is
not customer service. There's a decision that we are making

(35:24):
because we feel the readers. That's who you are, absolutely
and this is why you get out there and vote.
This is why you have to make your voice heard.
And I'm so serious, I am you have to register
to vote. Was heard because what was what is coming

(35:48):
up is the mid terms and from the looks of things,
we have a lot of work to do well. To
do well. Enjoyed this conversation with the legend Jennifer Lewis.
Bye bye. I don't know if you notice, Jennifer Lewis,

(36:19):
but I'm wearing my robe for you. That's the first
time I don't have a roller ball. Honestly, I'm not
used to seeing you not be robed. And sometimes I said,
I see you in the two robes, which is how
you know she's at work. Did you read the two
couple of paragraphs on the rope? Oh you know that.

(36:42):
I had to get up and walk around with a
book in my hand wearing that because I was like,
I know, this is boss. I know this is Jennifer.
Your as up. I'm wearing two robes. I'll leave a alone.
Trying to contain the charisma, Well, it's it's uncontainable charisma.

(37:06):
I'm so excited you're here, and I'm so excited about
the book Walking in My Joy in the Streets probably
one of the best titles I've heard. How just stumble
upon the title. It's just kind of who and what
I am. It's just what I do, mad I mean,
you see me on said if I'm the only time
I'm not like laughing and joking and playing around is

(37:29):
when I'm really in my lines. You know, I show
up to do my job, but I can't do my
job if I'm not in my joy. So um, it
was just so funny that first day I had that
big speech, and I remember all of you were sitting
there like little puppies, panting, Oh the great Jennifer Lewis,

(37:57):
listen to your little ships. I don't know one fucking
line of this script. They're not getting a great Jennifer
Lewis today. Here's the rule. Shut the funk up. So
I does it right, And y'all were like, damn all right,
well ship, but it was just so fun. But for
the reason I have been able to bring Patricia too,

(38:21):
I love that for you as well as I have.
And don't think for one minute I don't know that
my next work it's my best work because I'm able
to create an environment that is joyful. How can you?
I mean, there's not uh weak link in the cast.

(38:44):
I mean, I don't have to walk over to an
executive producer and sixty five years old, having been in
this business two hundred and ninety three years, and say,
what is going on over there? And what do you
expect me to do with that person who is not
present and who is not here that have hired. I
have not had to make that speech everybody. I mean,
I just wouldn't dream of showing up with Jennifer Lewis

(39:07):
and not bringing my A plus plus game. And you're
making me better, and you make me so much better
than I ever thought I could be because of what
you bring and the stuff that you say to me.
So I mean, it's just just know that that I'm
feeling every minute of it. I mean, first of all,
our relationship in the show, it's so intimate, and you know,

(39:29):
having had so many assistants and they like Murphy Brown.
I fire them weekly. Um big, So you don't know
my middle name? You name, motherfucker, I don't know. You

(39:50):
were walking into a storm. You know. It's crazy. I
have been compared to the elements. I don't remember a
review that I didn't I uh, Tornado her It's New York. Now,
I'm twenty two years old. What was I supposed to

(40:11):
do with that? You know? But anyway, I love being
on the set of I love that for you, and
I love everybody on the set. That is so rare,
my friend, that is so rare. And with that loving, supporting,
professional energy, I am able to move in a tight

(40:35):
g that I've never really felt before. You know, I'm
from the center and and you and I mhm, let
me find the word. Well it is it is energy,
but it's more than it's the consciousness and the energy. Um,
those being the only two things that really exists. Let's

(40:59):
just let's just say right now that I am I'm
looking forward to the next season. I know we're gonna
get picked up. I know it in my heart. I
know it because I can feel it. I can feel
it too. Yeah, I'm trying to see myself somewhere else
and I can't yet, I know, you know, Okay, so

(41:21):
we just shared. We just shared a visual moment podcast.
You know that ship out there. If they don't pick
us up there out of there, fucking mind. Let agree
with you. Yeah, they'd be crazy, they'd be crazy. You know.
I also feel like what I what I really take
from like our time together on set, is I remember
and this is just one of many examples. And I

(41:44):
wanted to ask you a question based on this, which
is I remember one day it was where we were
doing the scene where where Patricia gifts Darcy the bag,
and you were, um, we were walking through the scene
and you were saying, how u as Jennifer, we're feeling
emotional about the scene because you know, this was a
moment of vulnerability for Patricia and it was also a

(42:06):
moment where she was showing Darcy that he means something
to her. And as you were preparing the scene, I
remember you said out loud, but she is not going
to be emotional like I am about this, because Patricia
is she's rock solid, she's icy, and she would never
betray that. And you said to me, you know the
way you have an effect on the audience is you
don't cry, they cry, And I've actually I wanted to

(42:28):
tell you that There's been several times and projects that
I've done since that where I've employed that and I
felt it really has been effective, where I actually I
tried so much to not be indulgent in what I
was doing and rather actually have the much more human
emotion of trying to manage myself and letting the camera

(42:49):
are letting whatever it is pick up on that. And
I just wanted to tell you that that was I
think one of the most indelible pieces of acting advice
I've ever had. And I wanted to ask you if
you could remember a time where you were on set
or working with another actor and they told you something
that immediately made sense and you've remembered probably countless times,

(43:12):
all countless times. Uh. One of the biggest ones was
Tom Hanks when I worked with him passed away and
I was so nervous that first night, uh of shooting.
I mean, Tom Hanks, for God's said Robert robertson Mecca's
is directing, and and here I am. I mean, I'm

(43:34):
I remember so well because I was studying the Jackie's
back script in the trailer that night, and Tom Hanks
came up behind me, and Jesus, what a moment. He
thought I was rehearsing. He thought I was studying our
scene that we were about you. I was studying Jackie's Back. Yeah,

(43:57):
So he looked over my shoulder and saw one of
the lines from the Jackie's Back script that was eventually
cut because the scene in Jackie's Back where I'm standing
at the theater and I've got that mink hat on
pita is across the street protesting the Mink Act, where

(44:19):
Jackie Walkington didn't care. Oh, Tom Hanks looks over my
shoulders and reads the line that Jackie Washington was gonna
say to the crowd of the protesters for the fur,
give me back my head, bitch, snatches the hat off,

(44:40):
and Jackie screen give me back my head, bitch. So
that was the line at the top of the page
that Tom Hanks read out loud in my ear in
makeup and hair, and all I heard. He didn't even say, Hi,
I'm Tom Hanks. We hadn't even fucking met. He just

(45:00):
looks at the crip because I'm not paying attention has
come to the trailer. I know I'm thinking Tom Hanks,
guess it's makeup on in his own trailer. But there
he is reading over my shoulder and this is what
you hear. Let me try to get him, give me,
give me back my head, bitch, like, what the fuck?

(45:27):
It's Tom Hags. But the thing Tom, when we got
on the set, I was I was really nervous, and
he looked at after one take of the scene, he
looked at me and he looked me dead in my
eye and he said, don't say it if you don't
mean it, just like just like that, Oh my god,

(45:54):
don't say it if you don't mean it. Don't say
it if you don't mean it. H It was so
powerful because he didn't he didn't um patronized me. He
didn't make me feel bad, he didn't, you know, he
didn't put me down. He didn't do any of that.
He just gave me that one sentenced Because I went

(46:19):
over to him, I said, I'm a little nervous, you know,
and he said, well, just don't say it if you
don't mean it. It was just so simple and and
so everything. I'll tell you some of the lines. Sharon Stone. Also,
when I worked with her on the mighty yeah. She
gave so much off camera I couldn't believe. I mean,

(46:44):
it was Sharon Stone, and she gave me the tears
off camera. You mean when you were doing your coverage
and coverage had been my yes right during her coverage.
Her coverage was first. So she she did her performance,
and I, you know, would remember what she did and
I would give mine, but she gave it all and

(47:08):
I have always admired and respected her for that. She
also was very sweet. She came to see one of
my club acts one time. They're They're set, Sharon Stone
and Gregory Hines, and be was in the audience that night.
What I mean, you know, come on, um, I know,

(47:29):
I've always been the entertainer's entertainer. People they come to
study me, they come to watch because I mean, you know, look,
I perfected the cabaret scene, started the house down right,
you know. The kids and dream girls used to come
see me after the show. I was the show. After

(47:51):
the Broadway shows, people would the gypsy broad Broadways gypsies
would pile into Don't Tell Mama for my monthly show,
and I just did him. I just kept doing and
kept doing. And that's where the real groundwork came in.
That's why I wasn't too intimidated by Molly Shannon and
Vanessa bel I love that for you because I've done

(48:12):
my homework too. It was like I was on Saturday
Night Live. Yeah right, and it's it's true. It's true
that you auditioned for Saturday Night Live too, right, Yes
I did. I sure did. I had a call back
with Lauren Michaels. I can't remember what year it was,
but I was very young. I was in my early
twenties and I just knew I was gonna get picked.

(48:33):
It was one of the biggest heartbreaks of my career. Yeah,
I went through something similar. Isn't it funny? Like now
we get to work with people that have been also
on the show, and we both also got closer. Though.
It always comes around. And let me say, to all
the hits listening, you must I always say I gave
up many times in my career. I did, but I

(48:56):
never quit. I didn't quit. It's when your hardest hit
that you mustn't quit. Got to be in it to
win it. There's no room for you to sit down.
I tell motherfucker's I'm so dramatic. I lived my life
like I got five minutes left. You go, what you're

(49:17):
gonna do with the next five minutes, Jenny, Okay, you
say that's dramatic. Oh that's so much you damn straight. See,
I'm six five, I got thirty summers left. I ain't
got time to weight. If the fucking nine point two
hit right now, I would have gone down talking to
my baby. I don't waste time. I would have gone
down telling the truth. I try not to even get

(49:39):
stressed Anymoreglo, bitch, Why when you've been in an earthquake
and the tornado and the food, you know, you don't
funk around with nature, the preciousness of life, how precious
it is, how fragile we are, we are so gradual,

(50:01):
and it could all be gone in a second. And
that's why you've got to honor it. You got to
honor it. Yeah, as you're talking, I'm reminded of the
chapter in your book about your cousin Ronnie, which moved
me so much. I mean, this was such a beautiful testament,
and it's such a beautiful, you know, ode to his

(50:23):
spirit and to how meaningful he was to you. And
I do, like, I I know that like it emanates
off of you, but you are. It's it's almost like
beyond ally ship. It's like you are an icon to
the LGBTQ community. But also it's like it feels like
inherent in you. Like obviously you have a very close

(50:43):
connection because there's a person in your life that was
gay that you knew from a very very very young age,
but also like can you speak to being involved in
that cabaret scene and also being being around so many
people like Vibrant your people in the eighties, because but
it's beyond performance. It feels like it's like a lifeblood.

(51:05):
Oh no, daring. The performance. The performance on stage was
you know, probably scripted, and they okay, right, Jennifer Lewis
will go off the script in five seconds and create
a whole other world. But when the show came down,
you see, m Artists are different walk. We walk in

(51:29):
a different light of life because we know we're responsible.
We know we're responsible for the next trend, the next energy.
You know. It's like it's like it's like a tone setting.
It's a responsibility. You can't fuck with it. You've got
on an artistry because we are We go before everyone

(51:54):
and laid the ground here's some art to look at
while you're climbing your mountain. Here's a song you can
sing while you're climbing in your mountain, because that's all
any of us are trying to do, is climb the mountain.
So the artists are there to say, here's something to
encourage you. Here's a song you can sing when you
get to level five. Here's a pair of beautiful shoes

(52:19):
that will make your feet so good. Whatever you need,
we're gonna make you a shoe that's gonna cushion your
foot to get to the next level. What do you need?
Because we were put here to create it for you,
to help you, not to change you, not to make you,
but just help you, feed you as it were feed you.

(52:40):
Here's a song, bitch. You know you ain't even got
to know how to sing to sing it, to sing.
Thank you. The fact that you heard it means it's
in your soul all the bay there. Do what you
will with it. But here's the song, bitch. Here's a song. M.

(53:00):
I have a song I've loved since I was a kid.
It said, God give me mountains m with fills at
their knees. You know, I used to think Matt that

(53:21):
I that I had to pull everybody up. Happy I
stayed alive. I'm happy I stayed around to grow to
respect other people and hear what they had to say.
A k A. Listen to others. Instead of it being me,
me me, it's now we we we. So I found

(53:42):
people that I could reach up and trust not to
let me fall back down. That count and that goes
back to I love that to you for you. That
goes back to Vanessa's warm That goes back to Molly's
wholeness and your intensity and your I watch you know,

(54:04):
I've been able to watch the show and study it.
You also have a warmth and not to your looks.
Don't hurt either, baby boy, just coming from the most
beautiful woman in the world. That means something. You're so
precious to Just look at those little things you do,
even when you slam the the cart that Patricia has

(54:28):
made you put all over that board, the way you're
going like this bit, this bitch is in your back. No, honey,
I have studied all I have this bitch. I love her.
God damn it, I have to put the same ship
all over here. Because I heard Patricia say, put them
all up there so everyone will understand that will be

(54:51):
no mistakes. And you're like, and I could hear Darcy thinking,
fuck in your back. It's there, suck. It's such an
interesting relationship and dynamic to play because there's so many
layers to it, you know what I mean. It's like
there is that because because there is that, um, I

(55:12):
find that with him it's like an irritant that he
has to be obedient to someone, but he also he
also does need it and he wants to be And
when you have been with Banaza, when you're getting who's
taking the care of her, Matt, everything is in that scene.

(55:35):
Everything that is unspoken. I hear in that scene. But
I have a fucking word you say. I hear everything
you're not saying. And that's when you know it's right.
This means the world to me. No, no, no, you
literally say I'm nothing. When you say nothing, when you
say I'm nothing, I'm just a little spec All I

(55:58):
hear here is all I'm hearing it. You don't I understand.
I just thought that they the towns and when you
when you do your hands and you go down like,
oh my god. No, I'm gonna say my favorite part
m this is how I know like the second season,

(56:24):
but I love this for you. It's gonna be so interesting.
I can't wait because what I have found while looking
at it and studying it. You and I are music,
a young man, we're music together. That's some music ship
going on. We're writing the song in this bitch, and

(56:45):
I am loving every note. You know. I don't funk around,
young man. I don't blow smoke. I watch. You're too
close to me for me not to I gotta be
able to see straight through you, motherfucker. Get that close
to me. I see everything. Okay, they can actually be
a thousand paces the way I still see, but that

(57:06):
up close. No, when you let me tell you the
song you I don't even know if you know it.
But while I'm singing and I'm feeling good, and before
you push that fucking button, when you go that was it, boy,
this little boy know a thing that two It was

(57:27):
the song. It was a song within a song within
a song, and it was beautiful. I'm I'm I'm overwhelmed,
and it's such a It's one of the great joys
of my life to be able to to have this experience.
And I'm so excited for the future of like the
song as you're saying, and I will say, I was
so proud and so excited to be able to be

(57:49):
there when you got your star on the Hollywood Walk
and that was so exciting to watch you at that moment.
That like such a deserved moment. And I have to
tell you, I didn't get to talk to you much
that day because there was so much happening. But I
was shaking because I go over and I look at
my chair and of course I'm like glowing, and I'm

(58:10):
with Vanessa and we're so excited and proud of you.
And then I go over. I look, I they have
a chair for me, It says Matt Rodgers on my chair,
and the next chair over said two words, Brandy, Nor
would Jennifer I have I When I tell you, she
came and sat next to me, and I'm I'm like

(58:31):
shaking because I have been a huge Brandy fan from
a child, and she was and she was amongst dozens
and dozens and dozens of people that were there, just
so excited, glowing for you. What did that day feel like?
Because it's not just any people. These are the most
talented people. These are the most brilliant lights. I mean,

(58:53):
meeting all your sisters was incredible, Like, I mean, just
like what did that feel like? And the caliber of
people that were there to pay tribute to? I mean,
Mark Shaman and Debbie Allen did the speeches. Let's go wow,
baby boy, oh man, mhm to make Jennifer Lewis speeches

(59:14):
because she's sitting in a moment that is real. It's
so real. Mm hmm. Come on, you already know. I
don't have to say it was. Let me try. Yeah.
Mark Shaman and I have known each other for about
thirty five years, and you know he wrote Hairsprayed for me.

(59:36):
He wrote mortemall Mouth for me, but I couldn't do
it because I was on the contract with Strong Medicine. Wow. Wow,
So I did get to go. I did get to
go back to Broadway into it for three months, um,
which was wonderful. Oh god, what a life. And Debbie

(59:58):
Allen made my first job in Hollywood. Wow. It was
a pilot with Diane Carol cab Callaway Journey, Journey, Gary Journey.
Smollett was four years old playing Debbie Allen and and
I was playing uh uh, Debbie Allen's cousin, Jesse May

(01:00:26):
gave me my first solo and and the great moment
between Debbie and I was when we did a presentation
of the pilot. It was called Sunday in Paris, when
we did a presentation of the pilot for the producers,
the producers which she was one, She was an executive producer,
so they were in a meeting. So when they came

(01:00:46):
out of that meeting, Debbie Allen slipped me a note
and she whispered in my ear they walked more of
Jesse May. Yeah, of course, come on, now they want more.
That's the next book. They want more. They that they

(01:01:12):
want more of Jesse Met, she said, and then she
went it in my issue. She said, now you listen
to me and listen good. Yeah. I'm only gonna do
a couple of seasons of this show and then you
can have it. But not yet, bitch, baby. She wrote
a note that said not yet, bitch, that I still have.

(01:01:35):
I still have that note. Not yet, bitch. You can
be you can take over, because she knew I was
capable of taking it over. I mean, back in those days,
I wasn't even treated for my bipolar disorder. So honey,
I was completely out of control. I pushed every motherfucker
aside to beat to the center. And that was just
no justice, that was nothing. I was a fource of

(01:01:59):
nature job. Debbie Allen was like, goddamn, this girl got talent.
So ce she saw it, and she you know, all
of my peers, I mean from Whoopee to Rosie to
Kathy Griffin and all the people that were in Jackie's back,

(01:02:20):
you know, they've been there for me. Bett Mittler, all
of they've been there for me. I was the little
the little kid knew on the block, and everybody wanted
to make me a star. But the bipolar dis order
um really stopped that whole. It was a wave coming,
but it was a wave of confusion. I was not aligned.

(01:02:44):
I was willing, but I wasn't ready. I wasn't ever
ready emotionally, spiritually, uh. And I just didn't know what
to do with myself. Everybody was dying from a eats
and I just I pretty much just lost my fucking mind.
And then someone right, and and and you know you're

(01:03:08):
not supposed to deal with that much death in your
early thirties, for God's sake, They babies dropped like flies
nobody knew what to do. Ronald Reagan wasn't doing ship,
wasn't saying ship. The government wasn't saying ship. And we
all we were all lost, but I more than most
because I was styke. I was not diagnosed yet. So um,

(01:03:33):
I'm what can I tell you? Going back to the
lg g uh B t Q community, you know, like
the whole chorus like died from dream curls. I mean,
it was it was the time that you guys could
not even imagine, and it was a silent war kind

(01:03:53):
of like this dumb coat ship. You didn't we thought
it was in the air. There was a time we
didn't know if it was in the air. Yeah, it
had to be incredibly scary. I mean sometimes I just
I very rarely have these moments because whether it's ignorance
or whatever, it's just like I I am, you know,
blessed him to be living in this time and not

(01:04:16):
that one. I look around whenever I'm a lot around
all my gay queer friends and I think, like we're
very lucky that. I mean, this isn't a present a
present like immediate threat because just the fear and terror
just and to understand how vital the community is and
how enriching it is, and how I'm proud I am

(01:04:36):
to be a part of it. Just yeah, just life, honey.
I live in my joy around the gay children love me.
I love them and that's that's the way that is.
And I'm gonna fight for them and they've always fought
for me. And before you even a little a sahebo, yeah,

(01:04:59):
I was like, what do we rock in here? We
got some? I love that. Let's finish my plate. So
I got to eat a little something. You know, I
still take it. By the way you're going, you're emanating
right now. You seem like you're walking in your joy.
Then let me tell you what happened yesterday and you
will know why I'm walking to the enjoy. I want

(01:05:21):
to know. The musical director of my new UH animating
animation feature Spellbound with Nicole, Javier bar Damn and John
is playing my husband. I'm one of my husbands. My

(01:05:41):
e's the other, like minister of the little kingdom. But anyway,
they came over yesterday, honey, with all the dis knee
inness of it all. Yeah, the storyboards, well no, no,
you know Disney does not let out the script. Oh
they don't. Okay, we only when I've done about Oh,

(01:06:01):
I guess this would be my O. I think this
will be my seventh animation feature. Wo but baby, your
little girl was singing and Alan making song. Yes, unbelievable.
This is gonna be incredible, and I sounded so good

(01:06:22):
on it. I couldn't believe I hit those notes yesterday.
I I can't believe it. I mean everyone, I mean
you know what, you know what else I looked? But
I love that for you is they gave you that moment,
and I think it was the fifth episode to sing
feeling good. When you just mentioned it, just like the
way you ripped that up, I was like, come on now,
the moment was absolutely met crushed it. Well, you know,

(01:06:42):
I'm gonna be honest with you. The greatest compliment I
got was from Mark Shaman. And Mark and I don't
compliment each other because we both know if one of
us gets if one of us gets one more compliment,
our heads will fall off. I'll show this right, So
we usually we were just pretty much putting each other

(01:07:04):
down when we talked. You, no funk, do you know
you when Mark Shaman, you have such incredible enriching friendships.
Look at you, I mean you're overwhelmed. But yeah, because
there's so much love there, it's so much history. Yes,

(01:07:25):
when Mark Shaman calls and tells you that he has
never seen a more perfect lips stink, I love it.
I mean he said it was perfect. How did you?

(01:07:45):
I mean when Mark, you know, confused at some of
my brilliance, I mean that. Yeah, I'll tell you another
thing Mark Shaman did. We We went on a world
tool once and we were in Iceland together. Mhm yeah,
but we were in a three hundred fifty year old

(01:08:05):
uh glacier. They had card uh wedding chapel of ice
inside of this glacier. You call and tell him to
go there. It's pretty cool. Well, yeah, they'll drive him out.
Tell him if it's a bit of a drive in
Iceland to get out to that glacier, but tell him
to go. It's worth it. They have to give you
a suit, you don't freeze the death and their knowledge

(01:08:29):
a lot of experience. Absolutely, But I got a Mark Shaman. Now,
I we're walking around in this glacier in Iceland, and
the guide that was taken us through all this precarious
ice and snow she turns. At one point, she says, yes,
now we've entered the temple. The chapel is, does anyone sing? Oh? Man,

(01:08:52):
the acoustics probably were giving everything. Yes. Actually, if you
really want to know, truth is actually on you too.
You can actually see. But here's the piece. Okay, when
I finished singing amazing grace in that glacier mm hmm.

(01:09:12):
You can hear Mark Shaman say these words, and I
got a church from guy watching all the time. But
he says, uh, there, how's the amazing grace in speak
to No? No, no, yeah, but yes, but no, I
see and he either says I think he said perfect

(01:09:39):
or or it was brilliant. I mean it was somewhere
and it was one word and I'm all spring. He
doesn't see this here, this interview because it will give
it too much power. But when he comproments me, when
Mark Shaman get me a compliment, it fucking goes in. Man.

(01:10:05):
It sounds like it was involuntary, you know what I mean.
It sounds like he had an experience came so quickly,
came so from the soul, which everything does. That's son
of a bitch, feels everything I'm telling you. Mark shaman
rocks around, and there is there is music constantly in
his entire moleculous structure. You can barely get through. You

(01:10:30):
can barely get through. He'll put his finger up to
his ear because I'm screaming so loud, trying to get
through whatever symphony that motherfucker's writing. I'm we're eating now.
Some chicken bit killed me. But you know the corn

(01:10:50):
by riding a symphony. Damn, some people never stopped. I
have to ask you, Um, we have a question that
we ask everyone that comes on this podcast, and it

(01:11:11):
causes a little bit of a deep dive, So we
ask everyone, what was the culture that made you? Say?
Culture was for me? So basically this is a stupid way,
an ignorant way of asking the question, what was the
formative pop culture? Whether it was a film, you know, um,
musical artists, something that made you Jennifer Lewis realized you

(01:11:35):
or Jennifer Lewis, what was that formative culture? I actually
spoke to my new assistant, Cecily, who knows you love
Cecily already, and she was telling me about this this
culture thing. I was like, what then is talking about?
What the something that she said something that you know,

(01:11:58):
And I said something like, well, georga'ss jeans, you know
I was walking around. She's telling that's a good one.
But as you asked me this question, I'm gonna tell
you another. Oh yeah, I used to walk down the
street New York on you got to look, you got
to look. Yes, And those James were so cheap and nasty.

(01:12:21):
She used to always hurt you between my legs. I
took those motherfuckers off and never wore them again. Y goddamn.
And I'm walking in the pumps on the asphalt of
a fathe going. You got the look, you got the look.
And I changed the song to my feet are hurting,

(01:12:42):
my ass is hurting, and so up. I got ups.
They were not practical. They can't be the culture that
they were not practically. If as you asked me this question, yes,
something else went through me. I wanted I've heard. What
was it that that shook you in your in your

(01:13:05):
in your past. Let me tell you a couple of things,
whether I'm answering your question or not. Let me say
this out loud, just because it's so present. Good. It
was streisan Ah, it was Judy Garland, Sinatra Harl Bailey.

(01:13:28):
It was those gods, yeah, that snatched my soul out
of my goddamn rib gauge and said, this is who
you are. Mrs Lewis, was it the storytelling of what
they were able to do? What was it do you
think that made you connect to these like vocal storytellers? Like?

(01:13:51):
What was it about them? Because that is the that
is the the connecting tissue that I find in those
names that you say. It's the it fact. To my
it is a chrisma that cannot be bought. It can
only be polished. You have to be born with it.

(01:14:12):
It is game nose game. You have it, man, darling,
you have you No darling, I don't blow smoke baby.
You have the fact that you wouldn't be able to
stand next to me if you come on. Yeah you

(01:14:38):
wanna quit? You would? I can't that, but that bitch
I ain't done it. Chuniber lords. I can't, But you didn't.
You're stepped up? Or should I say you stepped in?
You know who you are. You're young, but you know
who you are. We're all unfinished projects. We're all climbing

(01:15:00):
that mountain. We're all reaching back to somebody we love
We're all reaching up to somebody we respect. Mm hmm.
It is a chain of love and some of us.
I'm sorry we were given just a little more. I'm
sorry we just were I don't know how it works.

(01:15:22):
I don't know what God is thinking, or who did
what or who did I don't know, but I know
I came in this bitch singing, and I'm gonna go
out of this bitch sings. Yeah. Oh. You know, my mother,
when I was very very young, she like raised me
on the movie Funny Girl. So I think I may

(01:15:45):
have been like four or five the first time I
really watched Barbara deliver those numbers. Specifically, the moment, the
moment that I can really remember is seeing her sing
my and at the end of Funny Girl, and just
the way that she belts out the world for the

(01:16:05):
word forever more at the end of that song, and
it closes the film and she she in silhouette. The
lights go down in black and she's in silhouette and
she's just bathed in the glory of what she's just done.
But what it was, it was all of the emotion
of that entire two hour, forty minute film put into
one No it was just like and so when you

(01:16:28):
say her name, I'm like, wow, that really is what
it is. It's just an immediacy and an ability to channel.
And that was the moment for me too. But my
moment was right on my parade. Yeah, when that bitch
went don't and then another don't tell me, and then
when she got on that motherfucking boat and hit that

(01:16:50):
motherfuck So that lasted eight hours. I was I was babysitting.
You never forget moments like I was babysitting. And when
she hit that note, yeah, and also holding the center
of that shot when she when she did that, I

(01:17:11):
knew you that I would hit that fucking note and
hold it that fucking yeah, I have in my youth.
I'm sure have you sang that song? Are you kidding?
Don't don't don't don't, don't, don't don't And they didn't
know the word was bop, but the word was bop.

(01:17:35):
All you are. All I have to hear is don't don't,
don't don't. I mean it's and it was also I
don't know, there was that just been moments. You know,
when you when you hear the voice of Nelson Mandela,
when you're when you're privy to looking Michelle Obama in

(01:17:58):
her eyes and seeing her grace through her eyes. This
was an amazing part of the book. Yeah, everyone has
to get this book. Yeah, I'm talking moments of life. Yes,
I mean I'm talking about human greatness. And boy is greatness?
Is Mr lewis greatness? And by the way, take this in.

(01:18:22):
There are no shortcuts to it. See when you see
when you put a word great on a human being,
they did some ship because they got there telling the truth.
That's some real ship. You can't lie your way to
great this motherfucker. You gotta stand in your truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That's why the

(01:18:46):
con artists in the book got eight years because when
I read, when I read my victim statement, I brought
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Didn't need God to help me because it was the
whole truth. Do you understand? Yes, I've been given the
strength to say no to injustice that should happened to me.

(01:19:10):
I said to myself, if I am in this much
pain from being conned and scammed, what other people must
be going through. See, I have the tools to work
through any fucking thing that comes near me, I'm like,
morphous and fucking matrix, bring it bit where you had
come on what you got, because we got. All we
can do is sit at the table and work through it.

(01:19:33):
But when you get to a situation where you can't
work through it, I'm telling everybody in the world, let
that ship go. That's the moment where you have to say, okay,
time to grow up and move the funk on. No
matter how painful it is. You may change nobody. You

(01:19:56):
can't make somebody do something that you want them to
do how you want them to do it. Mm hmm.
That's not that that doesn't belong to you. What belongs
to you It is how you feel about what did
you do with it? Who did help and who did
you defend? And did you take your responsibility? Because there's

(01:20:19):
always a two great fucking street. I don't even know
how I got off on that, but it sounds no.
But I want I want everyone to know, for everyone listening,
that you must read this book because this was This
was another thing I didn't know actually, is that you
found yourself in a relationship with someone that became romantic
and the person was a full scam artist. Who is

(01:20:40):
I guess now in prison because he was conning women
into being in romantic relationships with him and taking all
their money to fund fraudulent businesses. And this was something
that I was really shook by because you're so kind
and so strong. I was like, God, this guy must
have been a real sicko. And these people are really
good at what they do, aren't they. You have to

(01:21:01):
watch out for some of these people. And I just
wanted to ask, like, when do you decide so when
you talk about acting on something like that, because you
knew you were going to do something about it, because
pretty immediately you did go to the police, and um,
it developed from there in terms of getting this guy,
you know, serving serving justice or what happened? When does it?

(01:21:24):
When does it stop becoming I'm in pain and hurting
about this? And when how soon does it do you
make the decision to act? Was it immediate or and
how much grieving process went into the end of that relationship?
My what to do? Was it immediate? Because I'm an
out I don't sit around and well before treatment, before

(01:21:49):
treating my bipolar disorder, when chaos madness would occur, I
would become part of the madness and the chaos all out,
don't know what to do, go crazy, you know, start crying,
can't stop crying. Things are wrong now, not anymore, darling,

(01:22:10):
not after this many years of therapy. Whenever it happens,
because that phone one thing, you know, if the phone
is gonna ring, no matter, you can be skipped, towing
through the tulips or whatever the funk you want to
do with your life. But that phone is gonna ring,
and somebody's gonna be dead at some point. M somebody's
gonna have to have a heart attack. Somebody did this,

(01:22:31):
somebody it's coming. You know. That was a movie, The
Untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery, and Sean Connery
has been shocked and he's bleeding to death, and Kevin
Costner has come to him and asked for his assistance. Well,
now having given him his assistant assistance, he's been shot

(01:22:52):
and he's dying and he looks up at Kevin Coston
as he's bleeding to death, and he asked him, what
are you prepared to do? M hmm. You're gonna go
to the train station and kill this motherfucker, or you
just gonna let me lay on this floor and bleed
and you do nothing about it. I say a lie

(01:23:15):
long enough to tell you where this motherfucker is that
killed me? Now, what are you prepared to do? So
that's why I asked myself every fucking day, because something's
coming every day. What are you prepared to do? Jenny?
Did your journal? Did your journal about it last night?
Did you right down last night? Get in the pool?

(01:23:36):
See it's just step by step. Yeah, there's no frivolity
involved in living on on purpose. See the count artists
got in because I wasn't paying attention. Oh I was
getting my honorary doctorate degree, getting a lifetime Achievement award,
and he was just over there and I was like, okay, Babby,

(01:23:59):
I'll be back. Yeah, I'm I'll invest in that. Yeah sure,
and then I'm off on the plane. Well guess what
that is, Matt. That's called arrogance, it's called omnipotence, it's
delusions of grandeura, and it's grandiosity. Well. Ms Lewis, maybe
next time you'll pay attention, Mrs Lewis, maybe there's a

(01:24:24):
new lesson to learn. How about you pay attention. You're
paying attention, Jenny, or you just flailing your arm, like,
let somebody else take care of it, right this man
in your house, in your life, in your home, in
my bed, in between my legs, and thank you, I lie,

(01:24:51):
excuse me god, you send me a fucking con artist. Yeah,
let me tell you how immediate it was. Yeah, it
was immediate. I went to the police immediately, I called TMZ.
I wanted that motherfucker's face all over the world so
he wouldn't hurt other women. Let me tell you something

(01:25:14):
my therapist told me when that happened. And let me
be very honest, it is one of the worst things
that have happened to me. But in hindsight, once we
say oh it's the worst thing that happened to me,
it was the best thing. I would not have been
able to write either of these books had that motherfucker
not come into my life. I would not have been

(01:25:34):
able to write The Mother Black Hollywood, because, you see,
the con artist's story was the worst thing that ever
happened to me. So if you give the worst story away,
here you go. Here's the molestation, here's the pregnancies, here's
the abortions, here's the sex addiction, here's the mental health.
You gave it away, because why do I always say

(01:25:55):
we are as sick as our secret. That's right, I
did it, motherfucker. Bring it on, Bring it on. You
can't come for me, come for me. Yeah, I did it,
but I gave it back to health and that made
me happy. Yeah, was I embarrassed yours? It has to

(01:26:17):
be very vulnerable, stupid. Yeah, I've lived the spectrum. I've
gone from Florida, reach Port, the rich. I've lived the spectrum. Bitch,
I'm from the street. Who gonna check me? Boom? Well,
bit I can't. You got checked. You got con out

(01:26:38):
of fifty grand. Now go and mourn if you will,
and then get the funk up and keep going and
keep going the truth, Jenny. Yeah it hurt, Yeah, it hurts.
It hurts like hell. But how about you tug on
so journalous truth skirt right now and get up. Yeah.

(01:26:58):
It's also important for strong people to show vulnerability and
to and to also express the ways in which they
have been knocked down, because I think that is something
I think also to with the entertainment industry is when
we step on stage, like obviously, you exude a strength

(01:27:21):
and you exude almost like an invincibility, especially when we
when when we're these types of performers like you are
and the ones that you've mentioned. But also the vulnerability
is why we fall in love with them. It's why
we remember my man, you know what I mean. Duty
Remember Judy Garland, Judy Garland on the Judy Garland Show.

(01:27:44):
I think it was two nights after John F. Kennedy
had been shot. I was in the second grade and
Judy Garland came out MHM in her show. And of
course I learned later that the executive producers did not
want her to do that because it was political, but yeah,

(01:28:04):
Judy was friends with JFK and um. Anyway, she came
out and she sang battle him in Republic and they
go to YouTube and see that bitch. You will see
she forgot a lyric and you you she didn't flu up.
She went instead of saying, oh be swis my soul

(01:28:24):
to answer him, be jubilant my feet. Well God is
watching on and baby. When she took that first step
on loori Lori halleluyah. As I was in the second grade,
math m, tears were running down my face. I didn't

(01:28:45):
even know what emotion I was feeling. But this woman,
this energy, this power, this this unannounced storm that came
out of nowhere. I'm telling you, baby, I have enjoyed
being in this business, Matt. I have enjoyed. I am.

(01:29:08):
I think if somebody were to ask me what I
was more grateful for than anything, it would be that
I got to do what I loved to do in
my life. I probably would have done it had I
never got a penny, for gotten a penniful it m hmm.

(01:29:30):
I didn't know what else to do but sing a song.
I didn't know what else to do but kick my
legs in the air. I didn't know what else to
do but make people laugh. I always thought it was
why I was put here, and I'm glad I thought
that because it kind of worked out. Yes, here's a thing. Ordinarily,

(01:30:01):
on something as gorgeous and beautiful as that, I would
end the episode. But we have to do a segment
that we always do on this podcast that I hope
Cecily told you about. It's called I don't think so, honey,
did you hear about I don't think so, honey? Did
she tell you? You're telling me back? I don't think
this is what it is it's a sixty second rant
about something that is grinding your gears that you need

(01:30:24):
to rant about and scream about. I have one. I'll
do a demo for you, and then I'm gonna time
you Jennifer Lewis, okay, are you ready? So I'm I'm
gonna do one, and then you're gonna do one. All right?
So this is my I don't think so, honey, My
time starts now. I don't think so, honey. The word
affidavit's the releasing or whatever. Just put this motherfucker in jail.
Is he a criminal, then lock him up. I don't

(01:30:46):
give a funk about. He was the president and this
is unprecedented. I don't want to hear the word affidavit
ever again. Release the whatever. Mama released the cracking, released
the cracking of the U. S. Government, and put this
man in fucking prison. What does he have that he
should have? Just tell us, you know, we deserve to
know the fucking truth. Put him in fucking jail. I
have thirty seconds left. Look, if I have to see

(01:31:09):
one more drone shot of Mara Lago, Mama, put the
drone into the hallway, going uncover the cabinets, Just show
us what is in there? If I see one more
document with a billion lines blacked out, just tell us
the truth. How has this motherfucker's been putting us in jail?
I mean, and in in chaos and in danger. Put
him in jail, not us, Mama? Is it? I don't

(01:31:29):
care if it's UFOs, I don't care if it's fucking whatever.
Just just tell us what it is. Stop. I don't
think so, honey, boom, that's my one minute. Well, I'm
gonna pick it right the fun up. This is Jennifer Lillis.
I don't think so, honey. Your time starts now. I
don't think so, bitch. I don't think that your motherfucking

(01:31:50):
as should still be alive when you didn't tell us
that COVID what it's here, when it wasn't here, your
motherfucker saying ship on the phone, like oh it's in
the air, Yeah, that's in the a bitch, everything after
the motherfucking air too, Because you don't believe in science.
With your dumb, fat, little mushroom dick ass, you don't

(01:32:11):
believe inside you got him. You're a social path. You're
a fucking social path, and and you're insane, but you know.
I'm gonna be honest. Let you lafe. I don't hate
that man. I feel sorry for Trump because I know
what fucking mental illness looks like. But there's a difference
between mental illness and being a fucking sociopath. That bitch
has no feeling. And I'm gonna tell you why they're

(01:32:32):
having arrest of this fucking as yet because when he
got in he's mafia. He went out there and got
a picture of every Republican senator's mistress and a young
boy that they fucking around with. Fuck him, he's got
do it again. Let me get the good turn that finish, finish.
Here's what I want to say. Trump is mob. You

(01:32:55):
gotta understand that ship, that motherfuck monster. When he got
in office, he went and got pictures of every Republican's mistress,
whoever got the seeds they were straight or gay or
whatever whatever you could hold over their heads. As soon
as he got in he went and got those pictures

(01:33:16):
and all of that information and videos. Those Republican senators
know that he has this. That's why they're not stepping
forward and they think, okay, well, let me just get
on the evil train and maybe we'll win this thing
and keep our country. Well, fuck you, motherfucker. Let me
tell you it's time for every great fucking empire to fall, bitch.

(01:33:38):
And that's what's going because you motherfucker's went around the
world colonized, raped and pillaged every goddamned society you could
get your hands on. Then you brought us. Oh that's
the man. No, you know where that come is? This

(01:34:03):
is this Mark Jennifer has run off to go find
her phone. This is an iconic moment. Is it Mark? No,
it's mere Lola? Is it? Oh? My god, you gotta
get him, get him on. You know that. I've done two.

(01:34:23):
I've done two interviews solo on this podcast, Jennifer Lewis
and ch Angela. Those were the two that Bowen couldn't
join me for. And I'm like, of course the mother
and daughter hold on, yeah, got him back. Oh, this
is too good. Spacetime DJ Pierce, the other Oh, here

(01:34:48):
we go, and the answers, Honey, lookal's here. I'm all
with Matt Rogers. Hey girl, Jennifer's lost coat. Theresas remember
you did the pod? Of course I do, halleluk, and
I did nothing but praise jenn the whole time. How

(01:35:16):
did the video come? Look at your what's them? I
just take a cut. Oh shut up, I'm outside. That's
breaking news on the podcast. You're gonna lose your mind.
This is we are. You've seen all the videos for
Walking in My Joy? Did me get it? You see

(01:35:36):
me wash them in the in the hair and the
what is it? The dishwasher, Michael and the refrigerator. Well,
I want to live in your house with y'all. I
know we have. Well, you're gonna die for this. Just finished.
DJ film did and did the storyboard. He went up

(01:35:57):
in my closet, got the wardrobe. We had so much fun, well,
some of us did. He lived through it. Let's just
say he lived through it. We did. We've done a
mock of Beyonce's formation. Hilarious, yes, equipped with DJ running

(01:36:19):
out and getting the police, uh like for on top
of the car. But when we finished, Yeah, it's good.
It's gonna be really good. So that already. No, I'll
call you back. You tell me a ship. What's up?
What's happ my ass? I'll tell you what's happening. I'm

(01:36:40):
on this God damn it. Some of y'all, y'all ahead,
I just gotta tell you, Matt, watching you and her
was so fun and reminiscent of when I working as
There are so many moments where I was like, for you,
my this moment you're basically playing d J at the

(01:37:06):
beginning of our relationship, for you're my my assistant and DJ,
believe me, I would not like Patrician or was it
was nicer one, my baby? I mean, when he thought
he was coming to the party and co that was
a heartbreak. Now all we need to do is find
out that Darcy is actually a drag queen on the

(01:37:28):
side and sas Angela, and that will really complete the
loop season two. Baby, I'm getting in those writers ears.
But wait a minute, Wait a minute, DJ. The reason
that so familiar to him because the first year he
lived here in my basement, dungeon, or however you want
to address it. I had a Christmas party and all

(01:37:49):
the holiday Wood people were there, you know, RuPaul Loretta
was coming. And when Loretta pulled up, you know I
didn't I didn't get valet, I didn't give about it
was just a party, your own fucking ballet bed. I
don't know not about hiring ballet food. So I asked DJ.
I said, DJ, Loretta Divine just pulled up. Baby, run

(01:38:10):
out there and and and get Loretta's car. And he said,
but I said, baby, don't let Loretta walk. Don't let
Loretta walk. No, we can't let Loretta walk. What is this?
There is a song now called Don't let Loretta Walk?
I know? Is it coming on? They went out there
and park Loretta's car, and then somebody else pulled up,

(01:38:33):
and I said, oh, baby, don't let them walk. Baby,
d J old you like twenty years old, I was,
and I remember everyone then just pulled up and started
handing me their keys. Oh my god. So he tells
that story when people ask him when was the first

(01:38:53):
time he met RuPaul? And RuPaul came to my Christmas?
So funny. He and when he's he was going on
the Rue Paul Show. I was like, ru got the show?
You know about it? I said, that a part for me?
He said, well, it's drag quays. I said, well you going, baby?
You going? Baby? Mom? Yeah, mommy? Yeah, Oh my god,

(01:39:19):
all right, where are you? What staked? That's too bad.
I'll talk to you ladies, and Mama loves you. Kiss
by d j H. That's enough for you. Oh my god,
that was the best cameo I've ever had. Yeah. Literally,

(01:39:41):
when ch Angela DJ came on this podcast, I was
a one on one just like this, and I've only
done two of those that Bowen Couldn't make you and
Djuny mad bless it. Tell him we love him. I know, Um, Jennifer.
I have so enjoyed having you here and having this
conversation with you. I adore you, I look up to you,

(01:40:01):
and I i've It's just enriches my life every time
I'm around you in the same space. So I just
want to thank you so much for doing this pod.
Let me give you your listeners a couple of things
before I go. I always try to leave something and
somebody can, you know, just kind of maybe walk with

(01:40:22):
And this is one of my popular quotes and I
think everybody has heard it, and I can't say it enough.
The elevator to success is broken. Take stars. You gotta
be in it to win it. The moment you want
to give up, it's right around the corner. Mm hmm.

(01:40:44):
That's a big one. That's a big one. It's right
around the corner. You just hold on. It may not
be exactly what you want, but it'll get you to
where you're going. It's just the next step, So try
not to walk around. It's all right to be scared.
There's a lot going on in the World's right to

(01:41:04):
be scared. We're human. But you must be unafraid. Your
generation has to unite so they don't take all of
your rights from you. You must unite. You cannot sit
on your heads. You've lived in freedom and and and

(01:41:26):
privilege and and and you did have taken it for
granted that if you get sick, there's a doctor. If
you get hungry, there's a cook. If you get well.
Are you taking care of yourself? Mhm. Last thing I'm
telling you. We all have one job, just one, and

(01:41:48):
that's self care. Take care of yourselves. Life will unfold
for you. I got everything I want. Why shouldn't you?
And I do mean everything, Matt Funny does not make
life easy, makes it easier. M hmm. If you don't

(01:42:10):
know who you are, none of it means anything. Take
care of you. Don't let none get on you. Don't people,
don't keep people in your life that are toxic. Don't
do it. Find your joy, pursue happiness and walk in

(01:42:31):
Your Joy, that's what. And how about this one? If
you purchase a book, it should be Walking in My
Joy in the Streets by Jennifer Lewis. And if you
haven't read The Mother of Black Hollywood or for Me
better yet, listen to that audio book because she is
a performer. Than enrich yourself and be doing all of that.

(01:42:53):
Um and of course stream showtimes. I love that. For you,
I will tell you one thing. Yeah, audible of Walking
My Joy. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, having read it,
I can't wait. I can't wait the first person I'm
saying this too. It's so good. Yeah, I'm so excited.

(01:43:15):
I don't know what jumped in me that day, boy,
but wow, so I'm listening. I kind of wasn't even there,
which whoa. So pick up the audible is and I
actually sing. I recorded the songs in this one. Can't wait.
So so thank you, young man. I adore you. I

(01:43:38):
can't wait to see you on the set more Patricia
and Darcy in season for that, I hope it's announced.
I love you, Stoo

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Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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