April 4, 2025 • 48 mins
The rapid decline in active LCMS pastors—down 10% in just two years—underscores the need for new approaches to theological education that remain confessionally Lutheran while meeting modern ministry contexts.
Enter the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership:
Biblical. Reformational. Missional. Affordable. Global.
Visit https://cst.ilt.edu/cmpl/ or find the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership on Facebook for more information.
• Dr. Jeff Kloha's journey through seminary education to leading the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership
• Five foundations of CMPL: biblical, confessional, missional, affordable, and global
• Partnership with Institute of Lutheran Theology to offer full theological degrees at approximately $4,000 per year
• Addressing misconceptions that online education compromises theological quality
• Projected loss of nearly half of active LCMS pastors by 2030 (from 5,300 to 3,300)
• Creating pathways for congregations without pastors to develop leaders within their communities
• Missional focus on equipping leaders who engage their communities rather than just "sit" after Sunday services
• Supporting mission starts, bivocational leaders, and contexts not currently served by traditional models
• The biblical principle that the church is defined by gathering around Christ, not by clergy credentials
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kalberg has the day off.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
As we get to talk about whatGod is up to in the world Today,
I get to do so with Reverend DrJeff Cloa.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
He is the Dean of the Centerfor Missional and Pastoral
Leadership, simple C-M-P-LCenter for Missional and
(00:23):
Pastoral Leadership simpleC-M-P-L Center for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership and theassociate pastor at Our Savior
in Arlington, virginia.
And, to put a timestamp on this, we are recording this on
Wednesday, march 5th.
It is Ash Wednesday and I'mgetting ready to preach later on
at noon and 6.30.
And Pastor Chloe is preachinglater on tonight in his
(00:45):
congregation at Our Savior.
So good to be with you, jeff.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
brother.
Hey, tim, great to see you.
Thanks for having me on and I'mdoing very well.
Wayne, the pastor at Our Saviorgot sick so I'm filling in.
Last minute they got the B teamcoming up, but excited to be
able to proclaim the wordtonight.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah Well, why don't you tell us, give us?
I'm doing as I just told you.
I'm doing a little bit of afirst person narrative as John
the Baptist telling the OldTestament narrative, kind of
poetically, creatively, and thenleading up into John the
Baptist story.
So I'm excited to bring theword around that story.
We're in Mark 1 and we'rejourneying through Mark through
all of Lent.
So what are you preaching ontonight?
(01:25):
You said 2 Corinthians.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, 2 Corinthians 5 .
And it's a beautiful passageabout Paul and the suffering
that comes from being marked asone who is in Christ.
But also that confidence, right, that confidence that you know,
no matter what happens, he'sambassadors of Christ, right.
And the suffering that comeswith it still results in glory,
(01:48):
even I know this is not whatyou're supposed to say in Lent,
but even still results inrejoicing.
So you know, we don't.
We, we repent and turn back toChrist every day, but we, we do
so in the sure and certain hopeof victory in Christ, at the
resurrection and on the last day.
So that's what I'm going tofocus on tonight, and I pray
that.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
God bless his word, amen, amen.
Well, that's Romans 5, right,rejoice in your suffering.
Suffering is perseverance,perseverance is character and
character hope centers us.
In the last day, as we talkabout the center for missional
and pastoral leadership, I thinka lot of times and I get to
talk to a lot of people here, alot of different stories.
It's an honor and some folkscomment on the social media
(02:30):
about like why are you doingthis?
You're dividing the church andyou're not talking about the
gospel and stuff.
And people should know, likethe entirety, the why behind
this is more people hearing thegospel of Jesus Christ being
saved, being baptized, broughtinto a right relationship with
God, being centered around tableand font Right.
I mean the whole why aroundraising up leaders.
(02:51):
It couldn't be any more evident, at least to me, that it is
about advancing the gospel andI'm seeing the fruit of it in
the test we've been running nowfor a number of years here in
our context raising up leadersin a variety of different
vocations, but all with apreaching teaching gift.
And they want to have moretheology, deeper Lutheran,
confessional theology, pouredinto their head and into their
(03:12):
heart to be the hands and feetof Jesus.
And it's just, I would love tohave that sort of an environment
, that sort of an invitationalenvironment.
Not everyone's going to go downthat path, but I think there
are more in our congregations ofelders who, especially if a
pulpit is empty, could say hey,I would love some training to be
able to bring the word and intime the congregation could
rightly call that individual ifthe Lord leads them to do so.
(03:35):
So we just are not in anenvironment right now in the
LCMS where we're allowed,invited to run tests.
I'm reading a book.
I'll set it up this way.
I'm reading a book right nowcalled Leading Through.
Dr Ben Haupt actually turned meon to this.
Leading Through.
It's a father and then a sonand a daughter.
(03:55):
They're actually LDS.
Neither here nor there they'reLDS.
But we could read some goodprinciples.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
This is just first article reality he was actually.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm reaching out to this brother created in the
image of God, maybe not abrother in the faith with us,
for sure, but reaching out tohim to try and get him on my
podcast.
But he gives.
There's two different waysorganizations can function, dr
Kloel.
One is leading over, power overpeople and there are some power
over tendencies.
(04:24):
And this can happen in families, this can happen in
organizations, obviously, thiscan happen in not-for-profits
and even the local church.
So power over.
But there's a better way and Iwould say the Jesus way it's
leading through.
So it's empowerment.
They actually use that word alot.
It's empowerment, it'sequipping.
Does it get messy sometimes?
(04:46):
Because you're really yeah forsure?
So you got to kind of react towhat is going on where
correction needs to be made.
And as I look at the NewTestament, it's very evident
that the Apostle Paul, by theSpirit's power, is a leading
through type of leader startingchurches, staying connected but
trusting the Holy Spirit inthose respective contexts.
And so there's a juxtapositionright now, and there's always
(05:09):
going to be this tension.
Right, it's the hierarchy, it'sthe power.
You could say it's the towerrather than the courtyard.
Is that the metaphor thatsometimes?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
gets used, or the square.
There it is the square, thetower or the square you can look
that up.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And so we're just wrestling with.
This is not about any oneindividual.
We're just wrestling with somepower over structures and some
leading through structures, andI'm trusting that the Lord's
going to guide us throughaccording to his will.
And again, this is all aboutevangelism.
This is all about more peoplehearing and believing the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
(05:44):
So thank you for letting mehave that kind of preamble as we
head in.
Why are you passionate aboutthis topic, dr Cloy?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well, kind of related to what I've learned over my, I
think it was 32 years ago.
I was actually installed in myfirst call.
So I've been at this a littlewhile and I've learned over the
years that the only real powerthat we have, if you want to use
that word, is the power of thegospel, the power of the word of
God.
And if you're speaking thegospel, if you're teaching the
word, then things happen, and ifyou're not, then things don't
(06:16):
happen.
So you know, that's what reallygets me excited about this
program.
What we're doing now, it's justan extension of the ministry of
the word that the church hasbeen carrying out for centuries
and centuries.
And the more we stay focused onthat, the more we stay focused
on equipping people with theword of God to be able to teach
it better, to understand itbetter, to be shaped and formed
(06:37):
by it, to live that out in theirdaily lives and connect to
their communities, whetherthey're lay people or teachers
or missionaries or even pastors,whoever they are right.
Here's another opportunity tobring the word of God to people
so that it can do its work ontheir lives and so that they can
impact our communities.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, so amen.
Why are you connected to theCenter for Mission?
I think some people would askwhat gives you the right to kind
of enter in Dr Klohe and offeryour services toward this Center
for Missional and PastoralLeadership.
Yeah well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Tell them your story yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
So well, just a little story.
So I'm a product of the LCMAstro.
My dad was an elementaryLutheran school principal in the
city of Chicago.
So I grew up in thatenvironment.
You know urban congregation,very, very mixed and great
ministry there.
He did that for 40 years.
Pretty amazing.
And then I went to Luther NorthHigh School in Chicago.
You know system kid and youknow I was blessed at that time.
(07:38):
We still had two years of Latin, three years of Latin in high
school, two years of German.
Got to Concordia College in AnnArbor, which is sadly going
away, but you know had Greekright away with the classical
Greek, with Dr Heckert, and Iwas able to get a little bit of
Hebrew not my favorite thing,but kept going with the Latin
you know.
So you know from there was sent, went to Concordia Seminary, st
(08:04):
Louis, and you know greatprivilege Learned from some
awesome teachers.
You know people like Jim Veltzand Andy Bartelt and Bob Kolb
and just you know, down the line, just amazing people.
And I got to do a little bit ofgraduate work at CSL.
And then my first call was backto an urban setting in Cleveland
(08:24):
, ohio, gethsemane LutheranChurch, wonderful congregation
still keep in touch with peoplethere still carrying out good
ministry in that context, verychallenging environment.
But served there for six yearsand then went back to St Louis
to teach and did my PhD kind ofin amongst that at the
University of Leeds, looking atNew Testament manuscripts Greek
(08:45):
and Latin, primarily.
So I taught at ConcordiaSeminary taught New Testament
for 18 years.
It was a real, real privilege.
I learned a ton about the Wordof God.
I learned a ton about teaching.
I learned a ton about thechurch, both how it works and
how it doesn't work, you mightsay.
And then I was provost atConcordia Seminary for four
(09:09):
years, so I had the honor ofleading an outstanding faculty.
We went through a curriculumrevision, so we tried to
implement a lot of these thingsthat we're still talking about
today.
Right, how do we preparepastors for 21st century
ministry?
How do we connect them tocontext?
How do they proclaim the gospelin a secular age?
Right, what does that look like?
How do they do that and how dothey?
(09:30):
How are they shaped as a person, in their family life, in their
spiritual life, all thosethings to be effective servants
of the word.
And then 2017, I was asked totake on a role at the Museum of
the Bible in Washington DC,which was quite an adventure,
I'll only say, and I won't get awhole lot into that, but there
(09:50):
was a lot of issues we had todeal with and in fact right now
there's a series of BBC podcastson the history of the Museum of
the Bible, so I'm scatteredthroughout it and it's been
interesting to relive a littleof that history out it and it's
been interesting to relive alittle of that history.
Anyway, and so over the pastseveral months this opportunity
(10:12):
to serve and teach came up, bothat Our Savior here in Arlington
, virginia, and through thecenter, and really the response
has been, or the goal has been,to respond to the needs of
congregations.
When Dale Meyer was presidentof Concordia Seminary, he beat
into us again and again andagain we are here to serve
(10:32):
congregations.
Right, we are here to servecongregations and that might be
through preparing pastors, itmight be through continuing
education, it might be throughequipping lay people, it might
be through video resources, allkinds of things.
Through equipping lay people,it might be through video
resources, all kinds of things.
But if what we do does not helpcongregations, do the ministry
of the word, do the kingdom ofGod work in their communities,
then it's not worth doing right.
(10:54):
And so over the years, evenwhile I was at the museum, I was
asked to do a lot of teachingin different programs, some for
lay people, some bachelor'sprograms, some master's programs
Got a little experience in thebroader educational context and
especially online learning.
And then some conversationsover the past you know, seven,
(11:16):
eight months asking whetherthere's a way to get really good
theology, really good biblicalteaching, really good missional
formation in an affordable,contextual way to a number of
people who are not being servedby current models.
So we're kind of filling ingaps, if you will.
(11:37):
We're not replacing traditionalseminaries.
I still think that could be anexcellent program.
I'm a product of residentialeducation.
I think that can be anexcellent thing.
I love teaching in aresidential program, but there
are a number of situations,congregations and potential
servants of the Word who aresimply not being served and who
want to be formed in the Word tobe better servants and leaders
(12:02):
in their ministry contexts.
So we started talking to anumber of different
organizations, programs,seminaries, online institutions
and we connected with theInstitute of Lutheran Theology,
which has been around for about,I think, 17 years, maybe going
on 18 years now, and Lutheran intheir framework and traditional
(12:27):
in terms of their confessionaltheology, their view of the
authority of the Bible, that Godis real and he actually like
answers prayers.
You know basic stuff like this.
And they have a fullyaccredited program, actually a
number of programs.
They do a bachelor's program,master of ministry, master of
arts, master of divinity, d-min,phd, and as we got talking with
(12:51):
them it became clear that theyhave a lot to offer and also
that the people involved in ourlittle project have a lot to
offer more broadly, especiallyin the area of practical
theology, biblical theology,missional framework, a
congregational focus, leadership.
And so we brought together anoutstanding team of theological
(13:12):
educators, people like Ben Haupt, jim Marriott, eric Kerman, ty
Jones, bob Newton, others Ithink that list of people over
70 years of teaching seminarycourses in that group and so we
developed courses and did thisin conjunction with ILT and now
(13:35):
we've kind of put this programtogether and really it's really
kind of a synchronization, acollaboration.
So really all the students atILT will take our courses
together and in, whether it's amaster ministry or the MDiv
program or certificate program,and then we're also adding in a
formation path much like youhave in the SMP program if
(13:58):
you're familiar from the LCMS,where you work with the mentor,
mentor groups, cohort model, allthe stuff that really works
well in SMP and we're launchingformally in September and I got
to say the response fromstudents and congregations has
been just amazing.
I'm really surprised andgratified, very humbled, by the
(14:20):
number of people who have beentalking with her past several
weeks and who are alreadyapplying to the program.
So we're knocking this togetherand really excited that people
just want to get.
We're knocking this togetherand really excited that people
just want to get three areasagain Really good content,
really good understanding of howto bring that content into
their context and especially atan affordable cost.
(14:41):
And those three areas arereally key in the why and in the
what we can talk about.
But that's really where thiscame from how do we serve
congregations who are not beingserved?
And I could talk about a numberof situations if you like, but
that's kind of the basic how wegot here.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, thank you, um, you know I've had leaders go
through every program of of that, the minus E, I I T that the
LCMS offers.
So LCMs, cmc, there we go, notLCMC, cmc, smp and the, the, the
.
And we have a current pastorwho went through SMP and he
(15:24):
actually is is taking, he'sexcited to interact with you
guys and and maybe move towardNMDIV and I think a number of
SMP guys I think it's 40 to 50%or so.
I think that's about how far onthe way they are to completing
a Master of Divinity degree andwhat's to prohibit them if they
finish that.
And I guess the seminarieswould like for them to go there,
(15:46):
but they're embedded in theircommunity already so there's
just not a way for them in thecurrent system to get a Master
Divinity.
So we'll have a number of thosestudents and the cost is a real
thing, dr Cloe.
I mean SMP program is $40,000to $50,000.
And we're looking talk aboutthe cost for Simple Center for
(16:08):
Missional and PastoralLeadership and talk about the
cost for SMPL Center forMissional and Pastoral
Leadership.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, we've set a target and it's very doable to
have a cost for an MDiv onlineprogram of $4,000 per year.
Now we have some friends whoare helping us with that and ILT
already has a very lean model.
They have a very low cost toeducate and you know it works
very well.
So, yeah, to do to do an MDivfor about sixteen thousand
(16:35):
dollars, whereas an SMP program,like you said, costs forty
eight thousand dollars and youdon't get a degree, it's, it's a
.
So you know that's that's beena key thing we've heard from
from church leaders,congregations, potential
students is the cost, and thatwas really among many things
(16:57):
that drew us to ILT was the costfactor.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So what do you say to someone who questions?
You know it's all about life onlife, face to face.
You know interactions and theinternet.
Online you're going tocompromise theology.
I think there's this perceptionthat if you do online learning
you're going to be cheapening,shortening, lessening the
(17:22):
theological rigor.
You know, it's just not goingto be as intense.
What do you say to that personwho says you can't really do
online education well?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well, first, I mean, we can point to academic studies
of online learning, and thefirst place I would point people
is to a study by Auburn'sAuburn Seminary which was called
Not being there, and it was athorough study of online
distance education acrossinstitutions, and I encourage
you to Google it, read it.
It's a 50-page thorough studyon student learning, both in
(17:54):
residential and online programs,and they take three conclusions
.
Let me just read these quickly.
First, it said online distanceeducation is growing rapidly and
expanding the pool of potentialstudents for theological
schools, so that's a plus.
The second is probably the mostimportant for this question,
and that is let me read thisOnline distance education
(18:15):
student outcomes are equal to orbetter than those of
traditional residential classes.
Now, let me say that again,this is across seminaries, right
.
Online student outcomes areequal to or better than those of
traditional residential classes, right Now.
We've been in this game ofonline education I shouldn't
(18:35):
call it a game, but this fieldof online education for years.
I mean, I've been teachingonline courses for 15 years now
and I've taught at BA, master's,different levels, even PhD
level courses, certificateprograms, and I can tell you
people learn and are shaped byonline distance education.
So the claim that this is somekind of watered down system is
(18:56):
simply not accurate.
Either people have never taughtin the program, in an online
program, or never learned in anonline program, or, frankly,
taking the time to figure outhow to do this well and I think
it can be done very well, andI've seen examples firsthand of
how that happens.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
What was the third outcome?
What was the third outcome onthat study?
Yeah, yeah, I'm interested,yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, and it's.
Let's read it the integratedreality of digital life is
quickly making the old dividebetween traditional and online
classes and hybrid courses orprograms which toggle between
the two obsolete.
Right?
So this traditional dividebetween in-person and online is
obsolete, and that's really whatwe're doing with our program.
(19:38):
It's a combination of in-person.
We'll do some of the seminarslike we do at the SMP program,
the cohort model, where peoplecan form long bonds over a
number of years.
And you know, when I taught SMP,you didn't just turn on a
computer and talk and turn itoff.
I always met with the studentsindividually beforehand, got to
know them on Zoom right, rolledinto the program.
(20:00):
I still get emails from peopleI had in SMP courses 10 years
ago, you know.
So it's this idea that there'sno connection, that there's no
formation, that there's nolearning and that it's some kind
of watered down system is justI'd say, just try it actually
and try to be good at it andyou'd see what might happen.
(20:21):
The MDiv if you do the MDiv atILT, you're still going to take
Greek and Hebrew, you're stillgoing to get Greek quizzes and
it's not any kind of watereddown program.
The professors are all highlycredentialed, experienced
teachers.
You're going to get an expertin your class live, right,
you're not going to be watchingvideos on YouTube or something
(20:42):
like that.
You're going to have a fullycredentialed, really good
teacher, live every week andjust like you're in a classroom.
And in fact, when I was at themuseum, I had a staff, my
department, a curatorialdepartment of around 50 people
in my department and about athird of them were remote in
Oklahoma and two thirds here inDC, and I was running a hybrid
(21:05):
model over teams for eight years.
Seven years, right.
You can manage a complexorganization remotely and get to
know your team and developrelationships with them and
encourage them and deal withproblems.
This is not a radical way to go.
We've learned how to do this.
It can be a very effective andvery personal way to learn.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, well, thank you .
Here's an interesting question.
Who said you could do this inthe LCMS?
I've got that question before.
Who gave you the right to raiseup leaders?
Tim, yeah, and I think behindthat they think you're a
(21:51):
narcissist.
You're like you don't actuallyfor anybody that thinks that you
don't know me.
You're not a part of our team,like I've been a pastor of the
LCMS for 17 years.
We have an amazing group ofstudent learners.
This is a humble, vibrantLutheran community and it's just
a part of our DNA to raise upleaders and Jesus said the
(22:12):
apostles said 2 Timothy 2 saidso like raise up elders, raise
up overseers, like it seems tobe pretty simple.
It's like, over time, as aninstitution goes along and this
is a real thing you kind of missthe core, the foundation of the
whole thing, and you got to goback in many respects to your
origin story, and that originstory is obviously Jesus, it's
the whole thing.
And you've got to go back inmany respects to your origin
story and that origin story isobviously Jesus, it's the early
(22:34):
church and it's even themovement out of leaders through
CFW, walther and our originstory.
We don't have to get leadersfrom Germany, right, we can
raise up more of our leaderslocally.
We're still the church.
Wherever word and sacrament are,there is a church and the
(22:57):
church.
Wherever word and sacrament arethere is, there is a church.
And the church has a right tocall, you know, to train and
call their own pastors, andshould we do that, Not
frivolously, like intentionallydeeply?
rigorously, absolutely, yeah,for sure.
So this is just responding tothe need.
So who gave you the right, drKloet, to be a part of this?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, I mean you know , take a step back.
I've been privileged to I liketo put it this way I've been
privileged to raise my familyand get my daughters through
college without debt, simply byteaching the Bible, and I see
this simply as a continuation ofthat.
And congregations ask me tospeak and preach.
Of course I'll go on Saturday,go do a workshop, preach on
(23:31):
Sunday.
Of course pastor's conferencesget me to speak and preach.
Of course I'll go on Saturday,go do a workshop, preach on
Sunday.
Of course pastors conferences,you get invited to speak, right.
As we had this conversation andgot in dialogue with ILT, they
invited us to teach theircourses.
So great, I'm happy to teachcourses.
Right, I'm really excitedactually to teach master's level
courses again.
And if you want to take thecourse, great.
If you don't want to take thecourse, great.
(23:54):
If you don't want to take thecourse, don't.
I mean, it's that simple, right?
If you want to get the kind ofteaching and formation that we
can do through this program,fantastic.
If you don't want it, we're notrequiring anything of anybody.
We're not forcing anybody intothe system.
And I want to be clear.
You know, ilt Institute ofLutheran Theology has been
around a long time and they arenot affiliated with any
(24:15):
denomination, they do notcertify for ministry in any
church body, and so it's simplypeople who want that formation
and then they go back towhatever church body they're in
and go through their process.
For, you know, whatever youcall ordination or certification
or roster status, and so that'ssimply what this program is.
(24:36):
We are not offeringcertification in any bylaw
system or any church body.
Everybody has their own way todo that and we're not a part of
that.
So it really is simply acoalition of the willing, and if
people sign up and want to takeclasses, I'll teach them.
If they don't want to sign upand teach classes, I won't.
I mean, it's really that simple, and I'm just really humbled
(24:59):
that there's been a lot ofinterest in this and I think
we'll be able to kind of againmeet the needs in some gaps that
are currently existing reallyacross the country and, if we
can pull it off, around theworld.
So let me give you a coupleexamples.
Tim, there are a number ofcongregations new mission starts
(25:23):
who are not yet congregationright.
They don't have bylaws, theydon't have a constitution, but
they're trying to plant acommunity of gathering of people
in Christ in their communities,right, and so they're
essentially missionaries, right,they're evangelists and they're
doing ministry of the word.
They're not doing liturgy, yetthey're not incorporated as a
(25:46):
congregation.
They're evangelists, right, anda number of church bodies are
doing this.
A number of congregations aredoing this.
They're doing a multi-sitemodel.
This is kind of what you'redoing in some cases, right, and
so what we can do is comealongside those situations and
give those evangelists, thoselay deacons whatever term people
use, those missionaries, somereally good biblical and
(26:07):
theological education and someleadership, missional, practical
skills that they can use inthat setting and encourage them
and strengthen them in thatministry.
So they're not really pastors,and a lot of church bodies,
including my own, does not havea roster category for that.
You're either a teacher or adeaconess or a pastor.
(26:29):
I mean, that's it.
There's no missionary category.
So what do you call these peoplewho are ministers of the word?
And anybody could do this,right, you know, anybody can
speak the word.
So how do we serve thosesituations?
One example here in the DMV,the DC metro area, in the last
year there were 19 new missionstarts among Ethiopian
(26:52):
Christians, 19.
I'd be quite happy to helpresource those leaders and
missionaries to strengthen ourministries.
Those leaders will never go toa residential program.
They'll never go.
They don't even know.
Well, I'll just stop there.
But can we help, support them,encourage them, maybe with one
(27:14):
class, maybe with two classes,maybe with a master of ministry
degree, maybe with an MDiv,whatever it might be.
But if people want to get agood biblical, confessional,
theological education, we canhelp them.
That's all we're trying to do,that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, there's no roster status for evangelists.
100% agree.
Do that's good?
Well, there's no roster statusfor evangelists A hundred
percent agree.
Another, another one.
Uh, there's no roster status forexecutive directors or someone
who gets becomes, maybe ordained, but they have a business
background and they want tomerge an MBA, basically for
organizational health andsystems and structure, with with
(27:47):
good Lutheran theology we don'trecognize.
I think that's a reallystrategic opportunity for us in
the LCMS.
And then, not to mention, youknow how many vacant
congregations do we have rightnow?
Right, I mean, have you got anyof those kinds?
The data is shocking.
And here's one of the strugglesfor me I just don't.
And this is with all respect,friends.
(28:08):
I mean, if you write for theLutheran Witness, you write for
whatever the reporter oranything like that, like we
should honestly wrestle and I'veseen some articles around the
wrestle, you know.
And well, there was a recentarticle about, kind of how some
pastors are needing to serve,you know, dual and tri parishes
as they're too small and can'tafford a pastor.
(28:30):
And it's very true and Godbless those congregations for
working together to have thatone pastor.
But it's kind of the tone ofthe conversation is like woe is
me, like this is the worst, it'snot the best.
And while it is a struggle, Ithink it's a strategic
opportunity for us in a lot ofthose smaller parishes to have
(28:50):
this ordained pastor start tomentor more elders through a
program like this, or if they'reable to get into SMP through
SMP, to be sure.
So just talk about all thevacancies right now, Jeff, and
the need is high and it's onlygoing to get higher.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, I mean the church body that we're members
of on the roster, LutheranChurch Missouri Synod, and this
is a stat that's been sharedpublicly.
In 2022, there were 6,000active pastors on the roster
6,000 active pastors.
2024, that was down to 5,300.
So we lost 10% of our activeclergy in two years.
(29:27):
Yeah, and the projections,which include the current
graduation rates from our tworesidential programs and all the
other SMP other things, theprojection is in 2030, there
will be 3,300 active pastors.
So we're going to lose close tohalf of our active pastors just
on our own little church bodyin the next five years.
(29:48):
And and uh, that, that To me,it's a concern.
I would like to help.
I don't know that we're goingto be allowed to help because,
you know we're not inside thesystem, but I really hope my
church body can figure out waysto serve those congregations
with word and sacrament ministryand to find creative,
(30:10):
affordable, effective ways to dothat, effective ways to do that
, and if we can help spur thaton even you know, in some way,
that'd be great.
If they want us to help withthat, I'd be more than willing
to help.
But I'm deeply concerned aboutour brothers and sisters in
Christ who simply won't have ashepherd.
And that's not even countingnew mission starts.
(30:32):
I mean that's, you know, that'sjust assuming decline, without
new congregations and new starts, which we have to be about,
which has to be happening.
Anyway, I can go on and on aboutthis, but yeah, there's a
desperate need, not just in ourchurch body but across
denominations, for reallyfaithful and effective pastoral
(30:55):
leadership, and I'd like tothink we can come up with some
really strong and, yes, creativeways to help serve those
situations.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And creative doesn't mean liberal, theologically.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Well, no, yeah, exactly Not at all.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
We're not compromised .
So there are some and you don'thave to respond to this, maybe
it's more of a statement than aquestion but some who say that
and I think this is a very, verysmall fraction of the LCMS very
, very small but it has beensaid publicly that if a
congregation does not have apastor, are they really the
(31:31):
church?
Do you have any response tothat?
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Well, I'd read CFW Walther and this is exactly the
question they had when they were.
You know, the whole incidentwith Martin Stephan in the 1830s
and that very question did theysin, you know?
Did they go wrong?
Can they still be church ifthey don't have a bishop?
And Walther's answer, which isthe biblical answer, of course,
(31:56):
is is the church?
Uh, is those who are gatheredin christ, around his word,
around his sacrament, and, and,uh, pastors are raised up from
within that community to leadthem.
Um, uh, but that they are notdefined by the fact of whether
or not they have a pastor.
And, uh, I, I think we've kindof lost a little bit of that
(32:17):
picture.
We've sort of institutionalizedpastoral formation.
And you know, I think there wasa time and a place where the
kind of franchise model that theresidential programs operate
were effective.
It was good in the fifties andsixties.
I think things are verydifferent now that there was a
time and a place for that and itstill works in some settings.
(32:37):
But to define church by havinga four-year MDiv residential
degree, I just can't see thatthat's a biblical or
confessional definition.
Is it a good thing?
Yes, is it the only thing?
I see no biblical orconfessional warrant for saying
that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, well, I got you .
What would you say if thestatement comes out regarding a
pastor needs to be full-time andpaid?
Full-time, like a pastor isworthy, a laborer is worthy of
(33:19):
their hire, as the Apostle Paulsaid?
I mean, I've quoted yourresearch on the church in
Corinth and the size of thechurch in Corinth 50 people,
150,000 people, something likethat.
There's no way the economicsystem is created as the gospel
goes forward in those earlyyears for full-time pay and
benefits.
Anything to say there, dr Kloer?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well, first you have to take the Apostle Paul out of
the New Testament.
You know he's pretty clear thathe didn't take a salary and did
it for the sake of the gospel.
And look, I am fully supportiveof the workers worthy of his
hire.
I mean, I absolutely agree withthat and I'm committed to those
who teach in this program.
You know, I want to pay themwhat they're worth.
I mean, they're outstandingtheological educators and
(33:58):
hopefully we can do that.
But there are also situationswhere it's actually, I might say
, more effective to be embeddedin your community and to be
serving from your community andtaking that into your leadership
as a pastor or teacher, inother words, rather than
(34:20):
dropping somebody in and thenasking a congregation to support
a full salary.
There are a number ofsituations, including mission
starts, including kind of someof these rural areas where they
just can't afford a full-timepastor and they're
geographically remote, wherethere are some very talented,
gifted, spirit-filled people wholove the word and are able to
(34:41):
teach the word.
Why not raise them up?
Why not give them thatopportunity?
And I think I've seen somethings, even in the LCMS,
encouraging people to bebivocational.
I think that's theirco-vocational, whatever word you
want to use, and does that meanthey're not a pastor if they're
not in the Concordia plans orsomething?
I don't think so.
(35:01):
I mean for what it's worth.
I have a call as an associatepastor and I mean all they do is
pay me like public supply.
It's not even you know so it's.
If that's the case, then I'mnot a pastor.
I guess you'd say so yeah,again, there's.
There's a model that worked inin our history as a church body,
(35:24):
but does it still work today?
Does it serve the congregationsis the real question, and I
think the evidence is prettyclear that it's not serving all
situations.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah, hey, let's get into, as we're coming
down the homestretch here.
Talk about the missionalfoundation for the Center for
Missional and PastoralLeadership.
How this is grounded in themaster narrative of God's
mission to get all of his kidsback.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah, this is a huge emphasis and in fact we put out
our first official newsletterthis week and that's what I
wrote about in the newsletter.
If you go to Facebook and lookus up the Center for Missional
and Pastoral Leadership but it'sposted on the Facebook page now
and you can sign up tosubscribe for the newsletter
there.
But that's what I talk about.
What do we mean by missional?
And, by the way, the five kindof foundations for the program
(36:12):
are biblical, reformational orconfessional pick your term
missional, affordable and global.
So I'm going to talk about eachof those five areas over the
next five weeks.
But missional doesn't mean wetack an evangelism course or a
missiology course onto theacademic program.
(36:32):
You can do that, but thatdoesn't actually help you
understand what God's mission inthe world is.
Right that Jesus Christ wassent into the world.
Right To draw people to himself.
Right that we have been sentinto the world to draw people to
Christ.
Right by word and deed, so thatthey might see him.
And so how do we help students,leaders, lay people, pastors,
(37:00):
everyone see themselves and seetheir service as part of that
mission of God?
Right, how do you read theLutheran confessions
missiologically?
I'm absolutely certain you can.
I mean Apology of the AugsburgConfession, article 4, is
missiology at its heart andLuther's Catechism right, the
(37:23):
second article right that Imight be his own live under him
in his kingdom, serve him rightand everlasting righteousness
and assistance and blessing.
Risen from the dead, lives andreigns to all eternity.
It's kingdom of God language inour catechism right.
It's all eternity.
It's kingdom of God, languagein our catechism right.
It's all there.
So to remind people of thisheritage that we have and that
even the New Testament lettersthemselves are not just, you
(37:46):
know, in the gospels.
They're not just sort ofsources for extracting doctrines
and then you put them in a bookand you're done, but they're
actually written to shape andform us to be you know in Christ
and serving in the world.
So how do you read the gospels?
As missiological documents, asJesus bringing the kingdom of
(38:06):
God and empowering his disciplesand ultimately his church to
bring the kingdom of God intheir communities.
I just picked up a brand newbook 2025.
Love this book.
Michael Gorman put it up on thescreen.
It's probably backwards, buttheological, pastoral and
missional commentary right.
2025, brand new book and I didmy graduate work in First
(38:29):
Corinthians.
I've taught it any number oftimes.
I've read in Greek 600 times ormore, I don't know, and I don't
think there's anything in herethat I wouldn't have said.
Read in Greek 600 times or more, I don't know, and I don't
think there's anything in herethat I wouldn't have said.
But he does emphasize themissiological framework, right,
and just read his preface and Iquoted it in my newsletter,
right, that this is amissiological book, not that
it's for missionaries only, butthat this text is written so
(38:53):
that the church in Corinth, likeyou said, 50 people in a city
of 100,000 in the middle of thefirst century in the Roman
Empire, could be those upon whomthe end of the ages has come.
Right, and as often as you eatthis bread and cup, you are
proclaiming the Lord's deathuntil he comes First.
Corinthians 11.
So they are a missiologicalcommunity, and that's how Paul
(39:13):
is identifying them and shapingthem and encouraging them, and
so that's what we're going to beteaching in the courses.
Right, it's not rocket science,it's not radical.
It's simply that God so lovesthe world that he sent his son
and he calls people to faith inhim, and he calls us to live in
his kingdom, to love him and toserve our neighbor with the
(39:34):
gospel.
So that's a huge focus.
And from the church leaders thatI've been talking with over,
frankly, over 20 years and more,I had one church leader put it
this way to me.
He said, jeff, we have a lot ofand I hate to say this, I'm
just kind of sharing but we havea lot of pastors who graduate
(39:55):
from seminary.
They get to their call and theysee this sort of as a place to
sit.
They do the liturgy, theypreach a sermon and then they go
to their office and sit.
Now, that's a part of pastoralwork.
But what this leader said iswhat we need, in my district at
least, are pastors who do,pastors who get out of the chair
(40:17):
after doing the liturgy, afterpreaching the sermon, and they
go into their communities.
They go into the hospitals,they go into the prisons, they
go to the homes of their membersright, they go to the coffee
shops and they share this loveof God in their communities.
That the work of the church isto go out and then to gather
around word and sacrament.
They both go together.
But a leader who simply doesword and sacrament, constrained
(40:44):
to that hour, hour and a half onSunday morning.
That's not I'm sorry, butthat's not a biblical
understanding of what it meansto be church.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Dr Cloa, this has been spectacular.
You are a dear friend andpartner in the gospel.
You may not know this, but yourclass I don't know if it was my
first class hermeneutics but itwas one of my first classes and
it's definitely the class thatI remember the most because to
(41:13):
me you were like this, becauseto me you were like this while
you were passionate, obviouslysuper articulate, just as
everybody's experienced here,you obviously love Jesus, you
love his mission.
I could relate to you.
Looking back, I don't know howthe age difference I thought you
(41:34):
were kind of old, but stillcool as we interacted.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Really old and probably still cool, you know,
as we interacted.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Really old and probably less cool, yeah, no, no
.
But I mean you.
Your heart, your passion deeplyformed me and has deeply formed
many learners down through theyears.
And whoever takes part of theCenter for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership, being in DrCloa's class is a supreme,
supreme privilege.
So one, two last questions.
(41:59):
One is first thanks.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Thanks for that, and and uh that was one of the most
fun classes because it was a wayto like I hate to put it this
way but tear people down andthen build them up, right?
So?
So you think you know whatyou're doing when you read the
Bible, but you really don't.
So let's give you a betterfoundation, a Christ-centered
foundation and aproclamation-focused foundation,
and then build you up so youcan keep going and by the way
(42:26):
one of the courses that we redidfor the center and I'll be
teaching at ILT next year is anupdated version of the
hermeneutics course.
I mean this is great stuff, solet's update it, let's do it,
and that's a hugely fun class.
So yeah, I'm really excited tobe able to kind of bring that
back to students.
It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
It is and those classes are, you know, the
Lutheran mind type classes, oryou think you understand how to,
rightly, you know, understandand preach and teach the Bible.
Thank you, sir.
May I have another Try again?
Come back, come back again.
Right, it's that kind of anexperience.
So would you work with our twoseminaries, one of our
(43:05):
seminaries if they said you knowwhat, you have something going
here.
We don't know what it lookslike for it to get integrated
into our, but we want tocontinue the conversation.
Would you continue theconversation, dr Kluwe?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'd be happy to.
If anybody asks for help, I,you know, I would certainly make
myself available and I'm suremy colleagues would as well.
And and and frankly, I, I I'dbe thrilled if they took, took a
model like this and made itbetter.
I mean, they, they've gotresources there, they got good
people there, they've got thehistory and the gravitas of some
(43:37):
great institutions and you know, it'd be awesome if they picked
this up and ran with it.
So, yes, of course, I'd behappy to help and I have no, I
pray for my alma mater,concordia Seminary, daily.
Like I said, I taught there for18 years.
I have two degrees from thatinstitution.
I made lifelong friendshipsboth among faculty and students
(43:59):
at that institution.
I rode bikes right, you can'tsee my bike, but here's my bike
right here Rode bikes with anumber of students, drank wine
with a number of students.
It's a great experience.
So, yeah, I pray daily forConcordia Seminary and its
leaders and its students andit's a great place.
So, yeah, if, frankly, anyinstitution would like some help
, I'm happy to help.
(44:25):
And what is the website for theCenter for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership?
Yeah, two things.
So you can go to our Facebookpage, just look for Center for
Missional and PastoralLeadership and you can see
(44:47):
actually a lot of good contentat the best practices.
A couple of weeks ago we hadseven people involved in ILT and
CMPL give short presentationsabout of how American
Christianity and WesternChristianity lost the Bible and
how ILT seeks to bring it backand to keep it front and center,
(45:08):
and that there is a biblicaltruth, an objective biblical
truth, and that when you pray toa God he's there and he answers
.
Just watch that video if youwant to know what ILT is all
about Best 18 minutes I've everseen on a topic.
It's awesome.
There's other faculty memberswho are presenting there.
The other place you can go is toour website and right now we're
(45:29):
shifting the domain but rightnow it's the center.
So T-H-E-C-E-N-T-E-R.
Dot info.
I-n-f-o slash C-M-P-L.
Or you can just Google Centerfor Missional and Pastoral
Leadership and you'll see factsin there.
You'll see a bit of descriptionof the program, who's involved,
(45:49):
what we're doing, why we'redoing it, what we're not doing
right and why we're not doingthat so, and if you want to get
ahold of me, you know, feel free.
My email is jcloa at iltedu.
Send me a note.
I'm happy to talk, share whatwe're doing, what we're not
doing and see if we might beable to help you and your
congregation, your ministry, out.
(46:11):
Whether you're a lay person,somebody who wants to be formed
into a servant of the word.
You know, love to partner withyou, Amen.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
This is lead time If you have different ideas and
actually want to come on andhave a conversation with me and
Jack most of the time around howthe church can move out in
mission and remain faithful toour confession.
If you've got different ideasand and or this this kind of
conversation makes you, makesyou anxious or angry.
(46:40):
We're not trying to createanother church body that some
people you know may have saidthat you're trying to create a
whole nother.
No, we're just responding tothe needs of local churches and
we're inviting.
It is a spirit of invitationrather than coercion or power,
and we're inviting anyone thatwants to hear more to hear more
and to learn as we go on missionto make Jesus known.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
(47:01):
Wherever it is you take in leadtime.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Jesus smiles over you.
Feel free to smile back, drKaloa.
Thank you so much, brother.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
All right, thanks, tim, so much and blessings on
your preaching tonight and yourjourney through these 40 days to
the cross and the empty tomb.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Really excited to have this journey again.
Same to you, brother.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Peace the Lord You've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(47:41):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kalberg has the day off.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
As we get to talk about whatGod is up to in the world Today,
I get to do so with Reverend DrJeff Cloa.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
He is the Dean of the Centerfor Missional and Pastoral
Leadership, simple C-M-P-LCenter for Missional and
(00:23):
Pastoral Leadership simpleC-M-P-L Center for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership and theassociate pastor at Our Savior
in Arlington, virginia.
And, to put a timestamp on this, we are recording this on
Wednesday, march 5th.
It is Ash Wednesday and I'mgetting ready to preach later on
at noon and 6.30.
And Pastor Chloe is preachinglater on tonight in his
(00:45):
congregation at Our Savior.
So good to be with you, jeff.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
brother.
Hey, tim, great to see you.
Thanks for having me on and I'mdoing very well.
Wayne, the pastor at Our Saviorgot sick so I'm filling in.
Last minute they got the B teamcoming up, but excited to be
able to proclaim the wordtonight.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah Well, why don't you tell us, give us?
I'm doing as I just told you.
I'm doing a little bit of afirst person narrative as John
the Baptist telling the OldTestament narrative, kind of
poetically, creatively, and thenleading up into John the
Baptist story.
So I'm excited to bring theword around that story.
We're in Mark 1 and we'rejourneying through Mark through
all of Lent.
So what are you preaching ontonight?
(01:25):
You said 2 Corinthians.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, 2 Corinthians 5 .
And it's a beautiful passageabout Paul and the suffering
that comes from being marked asone who is in Christ.
But also that confidence, right, that confidence that you know,
no matter what happens, he'sambassadors of Christ, right.
And the suffering that comeswith it still results in glory,
(01:48):
even I know this is not whatyou're supposed to say in Lent,
but even still results inrejoicing.
So you know, we don't.
We, we repent and turn back toChrist every day, but we, we do
so in the sure and certain hopeof victory in Christ, at the
resurrection and on the last day.
So that's what I'm going tofocus on tonight, and I pray
that.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
God bless his word, amen, amen.
Well, that's Romans 5, right,rejoice in your suffering.
Suffering is perseverance,perseverance is character and
character hope centers us.
In the last day, as we talkabout the center for missional
and pastoral leadership, I thinka lot of times and I get to
talk to a lot of people here, alot of different stories.
It's an honor and some folkscomment on the social media
(02:30):
about like why are you doingthis?
You're dividing the church andyou're not talking about the
gospel and stuff.
And people should know, likethe entirety, the why behind
this is more people hearing thegospel of Jesus Christ being
saved, being baptized, broughtinto a right relationship with
God, being centered around tableand font Right.
I mean the whole why aroundraising up leaders.
(02:51):
It couldn't be any more evident, at least to me, that it is
about advancing the gospel andI'm seeing the fruit of it in
the test we've been running nowfor a number of years here in
our context raising up leadersin a variety of different
vocations, but all with apreaching teaching gift.
And they want to have moretheology, deeper Lutheran,
confessional theology, pouredinto their head and into their
(03:12):
heart to be the hands and feetof Jesus.
And it's just, I would love tohave that sort of an environment
, that sort of an invitationalenvironment.
Not everyone's going to go downthat path, but I think there
are more in our congregations ofelders who, especially if a
pulpit is empty, could say hey,I would love some training to be
able to bring the word and intime the congregation could
rightly call that individual ifthe Lord leads them to do so.
(03:35):
So we just are not in anenvironment right now in the
LCMS where we're allowed,invited to run tests.
I'm reading a book.
I'll set it up this way.
I'm reading a book right nowcalled Leading Through.
Dr Ben Haupt actually turned meon to this.
Leading Through.
It's a father and then a sonand a daughter.
(03:55):
They're actually LDS.
Neither here nor there they'reLDS.
But we could read some goodprinciples.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
This is just first article reality he was actually.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm reaching out to this brother created in the
image of God, maybe not abrother in the faith with us,
for sure, but reaching out tohim to try and get him on my
podcast.
But he gives.
There's two different waysorganizations can function, dr
Kloel.
One is leading over, power overpeople and there are some power
over tendencies.
(04:24):
And this can happen in families, this can happen in
organizations, obviously, thiscan happen in not-for-profits
and even the local church.
So power over.
But there's a better way and Iwould say the Jesus way it's
leading through.
So it's empowerment.
They actually use that word alot.
It's empowerment, it'sequipping.
Does it get messy sometimes?
(04:46):
Because you're really yeah forsure?
So you got to kind of react towhat is going on where
correction needs to be made.
And as I look at the NewTestament, it's very evident
that the Apostle Paul, by theSpirit's power, is a leading
through type of leader startingchurches, staying connected but
trusting the Holy Spirit inthose respective contexts.
And so there's a juxtapositionright now, and there's always
(05:09):
going to be this tension.
Right, it's the hierarchy, it'sthe power.
You could say it's the towerrather than the courtyard.
Is that the metaphor thatsometimes?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
gets used, or the square.
There it is the square, thetower or the square you can look
that up.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And so we're just wrestling with.
This is not about any oneindividual.
We're just wrestling with somepower over structures and some
leading through structures, andI'm trusting that the Lord's
going to guide us throughaccording to his will.
And again, this is all aboutevangelism.
This is all about more peoplehearing and believing the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
(05:44):
So thank you for letting mehave that kind of preamble as we
head in.
Why are you passionate aboutthis topic, dr Cloy?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well, kind of related to what I've learned over my, I
think it was 32 years ago.
I was actually installed in myfirst call.
So I've been at this a littlewhile and I've learned over the
years that the only real powerthat we have, if you want to use
that word, is the power of thegospel, the power of the word of
God.
And if you're speaking thegospel, if you're teaching the
word, then things happen, and ifyou're not, then things don't
(06:16):
happen.
So you know, that's what reallygets me excited about this
program.
What we're doing now, it's justan extension of the ministry of
the word that the church hasbeen carrying out for centuries
and centuries.
And the more we stay focused onthat, the more we stay focused
on equipping people with theword of God to be able to teach
it better, to understand itbetter, to be shaped and formed
(06:37):
by it, to live that out in theirdaily lives and connect to
their communities, whetherthey're lay people or teachers
or missionaries or even pastors,whoever they are right.
Here's another opportunity tobring the word of God to people
so that it can do its work ontheir lives and so that they can
impact our communities.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, so amen.
Why are you connected to theCenter for Mission?
I think some people would askwhat gives you the right to kind
of enter in Dr Klohe and offeryour services toward this Center
for Missional and PastoralLeadership.
Yeah well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Tell them your story yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
So well, just a little story.
So I'm a product of the LCMAstro.
My dad was an elementaryLutheran school principal in the
city of Chicago.
So I grew up in thatenvironment.
You know urban congregation,very, very mixed and great
ministry there.
He did that for 40 years.
Pretty amazing.
And then I went to Luther NorthHigh School in Chicago.
You know system kid and youknow I was blessed at that time.
(07:38):
We still had two years of Latin, three years of Latin in high
school, two years of German.
Got to Concordia College in AnnArbor, which is sadly going
away, but you know had Greekright away with the classical
Greek, with Dr Heckert, and Iwas able to get a little bit of
Hebrew not my favorite thing,but kept going with the Latin
you know.
So you know from there was sent, went to Concordia Seminary, st
(08:04):
Louis, and you know greatprivilege Learned from some
awesome teachers.
You know people like Jim Veltzand Andy Bartelt and Bob Kolb
and just you know, down the line, just amazing people.
And I got to do a little bit ofgraduate work at CSL.
And then my first call was backto an urban setting in Cleveland
(08:24):
, ohio, gethsemane LutheranChurch, wonderful congregation
still keep in touch with peoplethere still carrying out good
ministry in that context, verychallenging environment.
But served there for six yearsand then went back to St Louis
to teach and did my PhD kind ofin amongst that at the
University of Leeds, looking atNew Testament manuscripts Greek
(08:45):
and Latin, primarily.
So I taught at ConcordiaSeminary taught New Testament
for 18 years.
It was a real, real privilege.
I learned a ton about the Wordof God.
I learned a ton about teaching.
I learned a ton about thechurch, both how it works and
how it doesn't work, you mightsay.
And then I was provost atConcordia Seminary for four
(09:09):
years, so I had the honor ofleading an outstanding faculty.
We went through a curriculumrevision, so we tried to
implement a lot of these thingsthat we're still talking about
today.
Right, how do we preparepastors for 21st century
ministry?
How do we connect them tocontext?
How do they proclaim the gospelin a secular age?
Right, what does that look like?
How do they do that and how dothey?
(09:30):
How are they shaped as a person, in their family life, in their
spiritual life, all thosethings to be effective servants
of the word.
And then 2017, I was asked totake on a role at the Museum of
the Bible in Washington DC,which was quite an adventure,
I'll only say, and I won't get awhole lot into that, but there
(09:50):
was a lot of issues we had todeal with and in fact right now
there's a series of BBC podcastson the history of the Museum of
the Bible, so I'm scatteredthroughout it and it's been
interesting to relive a littleof that history out it and it's
been interesting to relive alittle of that history.
Anyway, and so over the pastseveral months this opportunity
(10:12):
to serve and teach came up, bothat Our Savior here in Arlington
, virginia, and through thecenter, and really the response
has been, or the goal has been,to respond to the needs of
congregations.
When Dale Meyer was presidentof Concordia Seminary, he beat
into us again and again andagain we are here to serve
(10:32):
congregations.
Right, we are here to servecongregations and that might be
through preparing pastors, itmight be through continuing
education, it might be throughequipping lay people, it might
be through video resources, allkinds of things.
Through equipping lay people,it might be through video
resources, all kinds of things.
But if what we do does not helpcongregations, do the ministry
of the word, do the kingdom ofGod work in their communities,
then it's not worth doing right.
(10:54):
And so over the years, evenwhile I was at the museum, I was
asked to do a lot of teachingin different programs, some for
lay people, some bachelor'sprograms, some master's programs
Got a little experience in thebroader educational context and
especially online learning.
And then some conversationsover the past you know, seven,
(11:16):
eight months asking whetherthere's a way to get really good
theology, really good biblicalteaching, really good missional
formation in an affordable,contextual way to a number of
people who are not being servedby current models.
So we're kind of filling ingaps, if you will.
(11:37):
We're not replacing traditionalseminaries.
I still think that could be anexcellent program.
I'm a product of residentialeducation.
I think that can be anexcellent thing.
I love teaching in aresidential program, but there
are a number of situations,congregations and potential
servants of the Word who aresimply not being served and who
want to be formed in the Word tobe better servants and leaders
(12:02):
in their ministry contexts.
So we started talking to anumber of different
organizations, programs,seminaries, online institutions
and we connected with theInstitute of Lutheran Theology,
which has been around for about,I think, 17 years, maybe going
on 18 years now, and Lutheran intheir framework and traditional
(12:27):
in terms of their confessionaltheology, their view of the
authority of the Bible, that Godis real and he actually like
answers prayers.
You know basic stuff like this.
And they have a fullyaccredited program, actually a
number of programs.
They do a bachelor's program,master of ministry, master of
arts, master of divinity, d-min,phd, and as we got talking with
(12:51):
them it became clear that theyhave a lot to offer and also
that the people involved in ourlittle project have a lot to
offer more broadly, especiallyin the area of practical
theology, biblical theology,missional framework, a
congregational focus, leadership.
And so we brought together anoutstanding team of theological
(13:12):
educators, people like Ben Haupt, jim Marriott, eric Kerman, ty
Jones, bob Newton, others Ithink that list of people over
70 years of teaching seminarycourses in that group and so we
developed courses and did thisin conjunction with ILT and now
(13:35):
we've kind of put this programtogether and really it's really
kind of a synchronization, acollaboration.
So really all the students atILT will take our courses
together and in, whether it's amaster ministry or the MDiv
program or certificate program,and then we're also adding in a
formation path much like youhave in the SMP program if
(13:58):
you're familiar from the LCMS,where you work with the mentor,
mentor groups, cohort model, allthe stuff that really works
well in SMP and we're launchingformally in September and I got
to say the response fromstudents and congregations has
been just amazing.
I'm really surprised andgratified, very humbled, by the
(14:20):
number of people who have beentalking with her past several
weeks and who are alreadyapplying to the program.
So we're knocking this togetherand really excited that people
just want to get.
We're knocking this togetherand really excited that people
just want to get three areasagain Really good content,
really good understanding of howto bring that content into
their context and especially atan affordable cost.
(14:41):
And those three areas arereally key in the why and in the
what we can talk about.
But that's really where thiscame from how do we serve
congregations who are not beingserved?
And I could talk about a numberof situations if you like, but
that's kind of the basic how wegot here.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, thank you, um, you know I've had leaders go
through every program of of that, the minus E, I I T that the
LCMS offers.
So LCMs, cmc, there we go, notLCMC, cmc, smp and the, the, the
.
And we have a current pastorwho went through SMP and he
(15:24):
actually is is taking, he'sexcited to interact with you
guys and and maybe move towardNMDIV and I think a number of
SMP guys I think it's 40 to 50%or so.
I think that's about how far onthe way they are to completing
a Master of Divinity degree andwhat's to prohibit them if they
finish that.
And I guess the seminarieswould like for them to go there,
(15:46):
but they're embedded in theircommunity already so there's
just not a way for them in thecurrent system to get a Master
Divinity.
So we'll have a number of thosestudents and the cost is a real
thing, dr Cloe.
I mean SMP program is $40,000to $50,000.
And we're looking talk aboutthe cost for Simple Center for
(16:08):
Missional and PastoralLeadership and talk about the
cost for SMPL Center forMissional and Pastoral
Leadership.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, we've set a target and it's very doable to
have a cost for an MDiv onlineprogram of $4,000 per year.
Now we have some friends whoare helping us with that and ILT
already has a very lean model.
They have a very low cost toeducate and you know it works
very well.
So, yeah, to do to do an MDivfor about sixteen thousand
(16:35):
dollars, whereas an SMP program,like you said, costs forty
eight thousand dollars and youdon't get a degree, it's, it's a
.
So you know that's that's beena key thing we've heard from
from church leaders,congregations, potential
students is the cost, and thatwas really among many things
(16:57):
that drew us to ILT was the costfactor.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So what do you say to someone who questions?
You know it's all about life onlife, face to face.
You know interactions and theinternet.
Online you're going tocompromise theology.
I think there's this perceptionthat if you do online learning
you're going to be cheapening,shortening, lessening the
(17:22):
theological rigor.
You know, it's just not goingto be as intense.
What do you say to that personwho says you can't really do
online education well?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well, first, I mean, we can point to academic studies
of online learning, and thefirst place I would point people
is to a study by Auburn'sAuburn Seminary which was called
Not being there, and it was athorough study of online
distance education acrossinstitutions, and I encourage
you to Google it, read it.
It's a 50-page thorough studyon student learning, both in
(17:54):
residential and online programs,and they take three conclusions
.
Let me just read these quickly.
First, it said online distanceeducation is growing rapidly and
expanding the pool of potentialstudents for theological
schools, so that's a plus.
The second is probably the mostimportant for this question,
and that is let me read thisOnline distance education
(18:15):
student outcomes are equal to orbetter than those of
traditional residential classes.
Now, let me say that again,this is across seminaries, right
.
Online student outcomes areequal to or better than those of
traditional residential classes, right Now.
We've been in this game ofonline education I shouldn't
(18:35):
call it a game, but this fieldof online education for years.
I mean, I've been teachingonline courses for 15 years now
and I've taught at BA, master's,different levels, even PhD
level courses, certificateprograms, and I can tell you
people learn and are shaped byonline distance education.
So the claim that this is somekind of watered down system is
(18:56):
simply not accurate.
Either people have never taughtin the program, in an online
program, or never learned in anonline program, or, frankly,
taking the time to figure outhow to do this well and I think
it can be done very well, andI've seen examples firsthand of
how that happens.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
What was the third outcome?
What was the third outcome onthat study?
Yeah, yeah, I'm interested,yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, and it's.
Let's read it the integratedreality of digital life is
quickly making the old dividebetween traditional and online
classes and hybrid courses orprograms which toggle between
the two obsolete.
Right?
So this traditional dividebetween in-person and online is
obsolete, and that's really whatwe're doing with our program.
(19:38):
It's a combination of in-person.
We'll do some of the seminarslike we do at the SMP program,
the cohort model, where peoplecan form long bonds over a
number of years.
And you know, when I taught SMP,you didn't just turn on a
computer and talk and turn itoff.
I always met with the studentsindividually beforehand, got to
know them on Zoom right, rolledinto the program.
(20:00):
I still get emails from peopleI had in SMP courses 10 years
ago, you know.
So it's this idea that there'sno connection, that there's no
formation, that there's nolearning and that it's some kind
of watered down system is justI'd say, just try it actually
and try to be good at it andyou'd see what might happen.
(20:21):
The MDiv if you do the MDiv atILT, you're still going to take
Greek and Hebrew, you're stillgoing to get Greek quizzes and
it's not any kind of watereddown program.
The professors are all highlycredentialed, experienced
teachers.
You're going to get an expertin your class live, right,
you're not going to be watchingvideos on YouTube or something
(20:42):
like that.
You're going to have a fullycredentialed, really good
teacher, live every week andjust like you're in a classroom.
And in fact, when I was at themuseum, I had a staff, my
department, a curatorialdepartment of around 50 people
in my department and about athird of them were remote in
Oklahoma and two thirds here inDC, and I was running a hybrid
(21:05):
model over teams for eight years.
Seven years, right.
You can manage a complexorganization remotely and get to
know your team and developrelationships with them and
encourage them and deal withproblems.
This is not a radical way to go.
We've learned how to do this.
It can be a very effective andvery personal way to learn.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, well, thank you .
Here's an interesting question.
Who said you could do this inthe LCMS?
I've got that question before.
Who gave you the right to raiseup leaders?
Tim, yeah, and I think behindthat they think you're a
(21:51):
narcissist.
You're like you don't actuallyfor anybody that thinks that you
don't know me.
You're not a part of our team,like I've been a pastor of the
LCMS for 17 years.
We have an amazing group ofstudent learners.
This is a humble, vibrantLutheran community and it's just
a part of our DNA to raise upleaders and Jesus said the
(22:12):
apostles said 2 Timothy 2 saidso like raise up elders, raise
up overseers, like it seems tobe pretty simple.
It's like, over time, as aninstitution goes along and this
is a real thing you kind of missthe core, the foundation of the
whole thing, and you got to goback in many respects to your
origin story, and that originstory is obviously Jesus, it's
the whole thing.
And you've got to go back inmany respects to your origin
story and that origin story isobviously Jesus, it's the early
(22:34):
church and it's even themovement out of leaders through
CFW, walther and our originstory.
We don't have to get leadersfrom Germany, right, we can
raise up more of our leaderslocally.
We're still the church.
Wherever word and sacrament are,there is a church and the
(22:57):
church.
Wherever word and sacrament arethere is, there is a church.
And the church has a right tocall, you know, to train and
call their own pastors, andshould we do that, Not
frivolously, like intentionallydeeply?
rigorously, absolutely, yeah,for sure.
So this is just responding tothe need.
So who gave you the right, drKloet, to be a part of this?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, I mean you know , take a step back.
I've been privileged to I liketo put it this way I've been
privileged to raise my familyand get my daughters through
college without debt, simply byteaching the Bible, and I see
this simply as a continuation ofthat.
And congregations ask me tospeak and preach.
Of course I'll go on Saturday,go do a workshop, preach on
(23:31):
Sunday.
Of course pastor's conferencesget me to speak and preach.
Of course I'll go on Saturday,go do a workshop, preach on
Sunday.
Of course pastors conferences,you get invited to speak, right.
As we had this conversation andgot in dialogue with ILT, they
invited us to teach theircourses.
So great, I'm happy to teachcourses.
Right, I'm really excitedactually to teach master's level
courses again.
And if you want to take thecourse, great.
If you don't want to take thecourse, great.
(23:54):
If you don't want to take thecourse, don't.
I mean, it's that simple, right?
If you want to get the kind ofteaching and formation that we
can do through this program,fantastic.
If you don't want it, we're notrequiring anything of anybody.
We're not forcing anybody intothe system.
And I want to be clear.
You know, ilt Institute ofLutheran Theology has been
around a long time and they arenot affiliated with any
(24:15):
denomination, they do notcertify for ministry in any
church body, and so it's simplypeople who want that formation
and then they go back towhatever church body they're in
and go through their process.
For, you know, whatever youcall ordination or certification
or roster status, and so that'ssimply what this program is.
(24:36):
We are not offeringcertification in any bylaw
system or any church body.
Everybody has their own way todo that and we're not a part of
that.
So it really is simply acoalition of the willing, and if
people sign up and want to takeclasses, I'll teach them.
If they don't want to sign upand teach classes, I won't.
I mean, it's really that simple, and I'm just really humbled
(24:59):
that there's been a lot ofinterest in this and I think
we'll be able to kind of againmeet the needs in some gaps that
are currently existing reallyacross the country and, if we
can pull it off, around theworld.
So let me give you a coupleexamples.
Tim, there are a number ofcongregations new mission starts
(25:23):
who are not yet congregationright.
They don't have bylaws, theydon't have a constitution, but
they're trying to plant acommunity of gathering of people
in Christ in their communities,right, and so they're
essentially missionaries, right,they're evangelists and they're
doing ministry of the word.
They're not doing liturgy, yetthey're not incorporated as a
(25:46):
congregation.
They're evangelists, right, anda number of church bodies are
doing this.
A number of congregations aredoing this.
They're doing a multi-sitemodel.
This is kind of what you'redoing in some cases, right, and
so what we can do is comealongside those situations and
give those evangelists, thoselay deacons whatever term people
use, those missionaries, somereally good biblical and
(26:07):
theological education and someleadership, missional, practical
skills that they can use inthat setting and encourage them
and strengthen them in thatministry.
So they're not really pastors,and a lot of church bodies,
including my own, does not havea roster category for that.
You're either a teacher or adeaconess or a pastor.
(26:29):
I mean, that's it.
There's no missionary category.
So what do you call these peoplewho are ministers of the word?
And anybody could do this,right, you know, anybody can
speak the word.
So how do we serve thosesituations?
One example here in the DMV,the DC metro area, in the last
year there were 19 new missionstarts among Ethiopian
(26:52):
Christians, 19.
I'd be quite happy to helpresource those leaders and
missionaries to strengthen ourministries.
Those leaders will never go toa residential program.
They'll never go.
They don't even know.
Well, I'll just stop there.
But can we help, support them,encourage them, maybe with one
(27:14):
class, maybe with two classes,maybe with a master of ministry
degree, maybe with an MDiv,whatever it might be.
But if people want to get agood biblical, confessional,
theological education, we canhelp them.
That's all we're trying to do,that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, there's no roster status for evangelists.
100% agree.
Do that's good?
Well, there's no roster statusfor evangelists A hundred
percent agree.
Another, another one.
Uh, there's no roster status forexecutive directors or someone
who gets becomes, maybe ordained, but they have a business
background and they want tomerge an MBA, basically for
organizational health andsystems and structure, with with
(27:47):
good Lutheran theology we don'trecognize.
I think that's a reallystrategic opportunity for us in
the LCMS.
And then, not to mention, youknow how many vacant
congregations do we have rightnow?
Right, I mean, have you got anyof those kinds?
The data is shocking.
And here's one of the strugglesfor me I just don't.
And this is with all respect,friends.
(28:08):
I mean, if you write for theLutheran Witness, you write for
whatever the reporter oranything like that, like we
should honestly wrestle and I'veseen some articles around the
wrestle, you know.
And well, there was a recentarticle about, kind of how some
pastors are needing to serve,you know, dual and tri parishes
as they're too small and can'tafford a pastor.
(28:30):
And it's very true and Godbless those congregations for
working together to have thatone pastor.
But it's kind of the tone ofthe conversation is like woe is
me, like this is the worst, it'snot the best.
And while it is a struggle, Ithink it's a strategic
opportunity for us in a lot ofthose smaller parishes to have
(28:50):
this ordained pastor start tomentor more elders through a
program like this, or if they'reable to get into SMP through
SMP, to be sure.
So just talk about all thevacancies right now, Jeff, and
the need is high and it's onlygoing to get higher.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, I mean the church body that we're members
of on the roster, LutheranChurch Missouri Synod, and this
is a stat that's been sharedpublicly.
In 2022, there were 6,000active pastors on the roster
6,000 active pastors.
2024, that was down to 5,300.
So we lost 10% of our activeclergy in two years.
(29:27):
Yeah, and the projections,which include the current
graduation rates from our tworesidential programs and all the
other SMP other things, theprojection is in 2030, there
will be 3,300 active pastors.
So we're going to lose close tohalf of our active pastors just
on our own little church bodyin the next five years.
(29:48):
And and uh, that, that To me,it's a concern.
I would like to help.
I don't know that we're goingto be allowed to help because,
you know we're not inside thesystem, but I really hope my
church body can figure out waysto serve those congregations
with word and sacrament ministryand to find creative,
(30:10):
affordable, effective ways to dothat, effective ways to do that
, and if we can help spur thaton even you know, in some way,
that'd be great.
If they want us to help withthat, I'd be more than willing
to help.
But I'm deeply concerned aboutour brothers and sisters in
Christ who simply won't have ashepherd.
And that's not even countingnew mission starts.
(30:32):
I mean that's, you know, that'sjust assuming decline, without
new congregations and new starts, which we have to be about,
which has to be happening.
Anyway, I can go on and on aboutthis, but yeah, there's a
desperate need, not just in ourchurch body but across
denominations, for reallyfaithful and effective pastoral
(30:55):
leadership, and I'd like tothink we can come up with some
really strong and, yes, creativeways to help serve those
situations.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And creative doesn't mean liberal, theologically.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Well, no, yeah, exactly Not at all.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
We're not compromised .
So there are some and you don'thave to respond to this, maybe
it's more of a statement than aquestion but some who say that
and I think this is a very, verysmall fraction of the LCMS very
, very small but it has beensaid publicly that if a
congregation does not have apastor, are they really the
(31:31):
church?
Do you have any response tothat?
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Well, I'd read CFW Walther and this is exactly the
question they had when they were.
You know, the whole incidentwith Martin Stephan in the 1830s
and that very question did theysin, you know?
Did they go wrong?
Can they still be church ifthey don't have a bishop?
And Walther's answer, which isthe biblical answer, of course,
(31:56):
is is the church?
Uh, is those who are gatheredin christ, around his word,
around his sacrament, and, and,uh, pastors are raised up from
within that community to leadthem.
Um, uh, but that they are notdefined by the fact of whether
or not they have a pastor.
And, uh, I, I think we've kindof lost a little bit of that
(32:17):
picture.
We've sort of institutionalizedpastoral formation.
And you know, I think there wasa time and a place where the
kind of franchise model that theresidential programs operate
were effective.
It was good in the fifties andsixties.
I think things are verydifferent now that there was a
time and a place for that and itstill works in some settings.
(32:37):
But to define church by havinga four-year MDiv residential
degree, I just can't see thatthat's a biblical or
confessional definition.
Is it a good thing?
Yes, is it the only thing?
I see no biblical orconfessional warrant for saying
that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, well, I got you .
What would you say if thestatement comes out regarding a
pastor needs to be full-time andpaid?
Full-time, like a pastor isworthy, a laborer is worthy of
(33:19):
their hire, as the Apostle Paulsaid?
I mean, I've quoted yourresearch on the church in
Corinth and the size of thechurch in Corinth 50 people,
150,000 people, something likethat.
There's no way the economicsystem is created as the gospel
goes forward in those earlyyears for full-time pay and
benefits.
Anything to say there, dr Kloer?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well, first you have to take the Apostle Paul out of
the New Testament.
You know he's pretty clear thathe didn't take a salary and did
it for the sake of the gospel.
And look, I am fully supportiveof the workers worthy of his
hire.
I mean, I absolutely agree withthat and I'm committed to those
who teach in this program.
You know, I want to pay themwhat they're worth.
I mean, they're outstandingtheological educators and
(33:58):
hopefully we can do that.
But there are also situationswhere it's actually, I might say
, more effective to be embeddedin your community and to be
serving from your community andtaking that into your leadership
as a pastor or teacher, inother words, rather than
(34:20):
dropping somebody in and thenasking a congregation to support
a full salary.
There are a number ofsituations, including mission
starts, including kind of someof these rural areas where they
just can't afford a full-timepastor and they're
geographically remote, wherethere are some very talented,
gifted, spirit-filled people wholove the word and are able to
(34:41):
teach the word.
Why not raise them up?
Why not give them thatopportunity?
And I think I've seen somethings, even in the LCMS,
encouraging people to bebivocational.
I think that's theirco-vocational, whatever word you
want to use, and does that meanthey're not a pastor if they're
not in the Concordia plans orsomething?
I don't think so.
(35:01):
I mean for what it's worth.
I have a call as an associatepastor and I mean all they do is
pay me like public supply.
It's not even you know so it's.
If that's the case, then I'mnot a pastor.
I guess you'd say so yeah,again, there's.
There's a model that worked inin our history as a church body,
(35:24):
but does it still work today?
Does it serve the congregationsis the real question, and I
think the evidence is prettyclear that it's not serving all
situations.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah, hey, let's get into, as we're coming
down the homestretch here.
Talk about the missionalfoundation for the Center for
Missional and PastoralLeadership.
How this is grounded in themaster narrative of God's
mission to get all of his kidsback.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah, this is a huge emphasis and in fact we put out
our first official newsletterthis week and that's what I
wrote about in the newsletter.
If you go to Facebook and lookus up the Center for Missional
and Pastoral Leadership but it'sposted on the Facebook page now
and you can sign up tosubscribe for the newsletter
there.
But that's what I talk about.
What do we mean by missional?
And, by the way, the five kindof foundations for the program
(36:12):
are biblical, reformational orconfessional pick your term
missional, affordable and global.
So I'm going to talk about eachof those five areas over the
next five weeks.
But missional doesn't mean wetack an evangelism course or a
missiology course onto theacademic program.
(36:32):
You can do that, but thatdoesn't actually help you
understand what God's mission inthe world is.
Right that Jesus Christ wassent into the world.
Right To draw people to himself.
Right that we have been sentinto the world to draw people to
Christ.
Right by word and deed, so thatthey might see him.
And so how do we help students,leaders, lay people, pastors,
(37:00):
everyone see themselves and seetheir service as part of that
mission of God?
Right, how do you read theLutheran confessions
missiologically?
I'm absolutely certain you can.
I mean Apology of the AugsburgConfession, article 4, is
missiology at its heart andLuther's Catechism right, the
(37:23):
second article right that Imight be his own live under him
in his kingdom, serve him rightand everlasting righteousness
and assistance and blessing.
Risen from the dead, lives andreigns to all eternity.
It's kingdom of God language inour catechism right.
It's all eternity.
It's kingdom of God, languagein our catechism right.
It's all there.
So to remind people of thisheritage that we have and that
even the New Testament lettersthemselves are not just, you
(37:46):
know, in the gospels.
They're not just sort ofsources for extracting doctrines
and then you put them in a bookand you're done, but they're
actually written to shape andform us to be you know in Christ
and serving in the world.
So how do you read the gospels?
As missiological documents, asJesus bringing the kingdom of
(38:06):
God and empowering his disciplesand ultimately his church to
bring the kingdom of God intheir communities.
I just picked up a brand newbook 2025.
Love this book.
Michael Gorman put it up on thescreen.
It's probably backwards, buttheological, pastoral and
missional commentary right.
2025, brand new book and I didmy graduate work in First
(38:29):
Corinthians.
I've taught it any number oftimes.
I've read in Greek 600 times ormore, I don't know, and I don't
think there's anything in herethat I wouldn't have said.
Read in Greek 600 times or more, I don't know, and I don't
think there's anything in herethat I wouldn't have said.
But he does emphasize themissiological framework, right,
and just read his preface and Iquoted it in my newsletter,
right, that this is amissiological book, not that
it's for missionaries only, butthat this text is written so
(38:53):
that the church in Corinth, likeyou said, 50 people in a city
of 100,000 in the middle of thefirst century in the Roman
Empire, could be those upon whomthe end of the ages has come.
Right, and as often as you eatthis bread and cup, you are
proclaiming the Lord's deathuntil he comes First.
Corinthians 11.
So they are a missiologicalcommunity, and that's how Paul
(39:13):
is identifying them and shapingthem and encouraging them, and
so that's what we're going to beteaching in the courses.
Right, it's not rocket science,it's not radical.
It's simply that God so lovesthe world that he sent his son
and he calls people to faith inhim, and he calls us to live in
his kingdom, to love him and toserve our neighbor with the
(39:34):
gospel.
So that's a huge focus.
And from the church leaders thatI've been talking with over,
frankly, over 20 years and more,I had one church leader put it
this way to me.
He said, jeff, we have a lot ofand I hate to say this, I'm
just kind of sharing but we havea lot of pastors who graduate
(39:55):
from seminary.
They get to their call and theysee this sort of as a place to
sit.
They do the liturgy, theypreach a sermon and then they go
to their office and sit.
Now, that's a part of pastoralwork.
But what this leader said iswhat we need, in my district at
least, are pastors who do,pastors who get out of the chair
(40:17):
after doing the liturgy, afterpreaching the sermon, and they
go into their communities.
They go into the hospitals,they go into the prisons, they
go to the homes of their membersright, they go to the coffee
shops and they share this loveof God in their communities.
That the work of the church isto go out and then to gather
around word and sacrament.
They both go together.
But a leader who simply doesword and sacrament, constrained
(40:44):
to that hour, hour and a half onSunday morning.
That's not I'm sorry, butthat's not a biblical
understanding of what it meansto be church.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Dr Cloa, this has been spectacular.
You are a dear friend andpartner in the gospel.
You may not know this, but yourclass I don't know if it was my
first class hermeneutics but itwas one of my first classes and
it's definitely the class thatI remember the most because to
(41:13):
me you were like this, becauseto me you were like this while
you were passionate, obviouslysuper articulate, just as
everybody's experienced here,you obviously love Jesus, you
love his mission.
I could relate to you.
Looking back, I don't know howthe age difference I thought you
(41:34):
were kind of old, but stillcool as we interacted.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Really old and probably still cool, you know,
as we interacted.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Really old and probably less cool, yeah, no, no
.
But I mean you.
Your heart, your passion deeplyformed me and has deeply formed
many learners down through theyears.
And whoever takes part of theCenter for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership, being in DrCloa's class is a supreme,
supreme privilege.
So one, two last questions.
(41:59):
One is first thanks.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Thanks for that, and and uh that was one of the most
fun classes because it was a wayto like I hate to put it this
way but tear people down andthen build them up, right?
So?
So you think you know whatyou're doing when you read the
Bible, but you really don't.
So let's give you a betterfoundation, a Christ-centered
foundation and aproclamation-focused foundation,
and then build you up so youcan keep going and by the way
(42:26):
one of the courses that we redidfor the center and I'll be
teaching at ILT next year is anupdated version of the
hermeneutics course.
I mean this is great stuff, solet's update it, let's do it,
and that's a hugely fun class.
So yeah, I'm really excited tobe able to kind of bring that
back to students.
It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
It is and those classes are, you know, the
Lutheran mind type classes, oryou think you understand how to,
rightly, you know, understandand preach and teach the Bible.
Thank you, sir.
May I have another Try again?
Come back, come back again.
Right, it's that kind of anexperience.
So would you work with our twoseminaries, one of our
(43:05):
seminaries if they said you knowwhat, you have something going
here.
We don't know what it lookslike for it to get integrated
into our, but we want tocontinue the conversation.
Would you continue theconversation, dr Kluwe?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'd be happy to.
If anybody asks for help, I,you know, I would certainly make
myself available and I'm suremy colleagues would as well.
And and and frankly, I, I I'dbe thrilled if they took, took a
model like this and made itbetter.
I mean, they, they've gotresources there, they got good
people there, they've got thehistory and the gravitas of some
(43:37):
great institutions and you know, it'd be awesome if they picked
this up and ran with it.
So, yes, of course, I'd behappy to help and I have no, I
pray for my alma mater,concordia Seminary, daily.
Like I said, I taught there for18 years.
I have two degrees from thatinstitution.
I made lifelong friendshipsboth among faculty and students
(43:59):
at that institution.
I rode bikes right, you can'tsee my bike, but here's my bike
right here Rode bikes with anumber of students, drank wine
with a number of students.
It's a great experience.
So, yeah, I pray daily forConcordia Seminary and its
leaders and its students andit's a great place.
So, yeah, if, frankly, anyinstitution would like some help
, I'm happy to help.
(44:25):
And what is the website for theCenter for Missional and
Pastoral Leadership?
Yeah, two things.
So you can go to our Facebookpage, just look for Center for
Missional and PastoralLeadership and you can see
(44:47):
actually a lot of good contentat the best practices.
A couple of weeks ago we hadseven people involved in ILT and
CMPL give short presentationsabout of how American
Christianity and WesternChristianity lost the Bible and
how ILT seeks to bring it backand to keep it front and center,
(45:08):
and that there is a biblicaltruth, an objective biblical
truth, and that when you pray toa God he's there and he answers
.
Just watch that video if youwant to know what ILT is all
about Best 18 minutes I've everseen on a topic.
It's awesome.
There's other faculty memberswho are presenting there.
The other place you can go is toour website and right now we're
(45:29):
shifting the domain but rightnow it's the center.
So T-H-E-C-E-N-T-E-R.
Dot info.
I-n-f-o slash C-M-P-L.
Or you can just Google Centerfor Missional and Pastoral
Leadership and you'll see factsin there.
You'll see a bit of descriptionof the program, who's involved,
(45:49):
what we're doing, why we'redoing it, what we're not doing
right and why we're not doingthat so, and if you want to get
ahold of me, you know, feel free.
My email is jcloa at iltedu.
Send me a note.
I'm happy to talk, share whatwe're doing, what we're not
doing and see if we might beable to help you and your
congregation, your ministry, out.
(46:11):
Whether you're a lay person,somebody who wants to be formed
into a servant of the word.
You know, love to partner withyou, Amen.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
This is lead time If you have different ideas and
actually want to come on andhave a conversation with me and
Jack most of the time around howthe church can move out in
mission and remain faithful toour confession.
If you've got different ideasand and or this this kind of
conversation makes you, makesyou anxious or angry.
(46:40):
We're not trying to createanother church body that some
people you know may have saidthat you're trying to create a
whole nother.
No, we're just responding tothe needs of local churches and
we're inviting.
It is a spirit of invitationrather than coercion or power,
and we're inviting anyone thatwants to hear more to hear more
and to learn as we go on missionto make Jesus known.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
(47:01):
Wherever it is you take in leadtime.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Jesus smiles over you.
Feel free to smile back, drKaloa.
Thank you so much, brother.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
All right, thanks, tim, so much and blessings on
your preaching tonight and yourjourney through these 40 days to
the cross and the empty tomb.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Really excited to have this journey again.
Same to you, brother.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Peace the Lord You've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(47:41):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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