August 20, 2024 • 55 mins
Spencer opens the discussion by reiterating Step Two: “[We] came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.” Bruce notes that their discussion is a reflection of their personal experiences.. Personal Narratives of Insanity and Restoration Both Spencer and Bruce share their personal stories, highlighting their past struggles and how...
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Bruce (00:00):
once I grasped the notion of that, man, the universe just opened up.
It was all kinds of opportunities and signsand, ways of healing were introduced to me.
Spencer (00:12):
Welcome to episode 415 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Colin,Tina, Cliff, Marsha, Laura, Susan, and May.
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Colin, Tina, Cliff, Marsha, Laura,Susan, and May for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
(00:32):
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Bruce (00:49):
Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During the show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:08):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today, and joining me today is Bruce.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Bruce.
Bruce (01:14):
Thank you, Spencer.
Appreciate it.
Spencer (01:16):
As you might have guessed from the introduction, we're going to be talking today about Step 2, and I'll repeat that.
Came to believe that a power greater thanourselves could restore us to sanity.
We'll be reading from the book How Al-Anon Worksfor Family and Friends of Alcoholics in Chapter 8, which is the 12 steps, The section for Step 2.
(01:37):
First paragraph says, and I find it interesting thatit starts with the insanity part, but there we are.
Bruce (01:44):
yeah.
Spencer (01:45):
One definition of insanity is performing the same action again and again, each time expecting to achieve a different result.
Any of us who have been affected bythe family disease of alcoholism have experienced this and other forms of insanity.
Living with the effects of another's alcoholismhas given us a lopsided view of life.
Yet, no matter how distorted our outlook or how out ofcontrol our lives seem, and regardless of the impact of the alcoholic's behavior, help is available to us.
(02:15):
What does this say to you now?
Bruce (02:17):
I will stop at the fourth word of the first paragraph, insanity.
it reminds me so much of where I was and Ihad been with my qualifier for eight years before she discovered her own recovery.
and I didn't know I was insane.
(02:38):
I didn't know that I was repeating all thebad behaviors or that I was in any way, shape or form inhibiting her recovery.
I just thought as the classic overthinker,people pleaser, I can fix my qualifier.
I can repair a house.
I can build a deck.
I can remodel and create things.
I'm going to fix this.
And of course, the definition is described rightthere on the first paragraph, I didn't realize I was insane until somebody actually pointed it out to me.
(03:05):
I didn't have the path where somebody said, Oh,you should go to Al-Anon or, Oh, I recognize this as alcoholic, behavior and you should, seek help or go here and figure this out.
instead of came.
through an off channel.
I was angry at work and had a couple ofoutbursts that were unprofessional and, I got called out on it and I really appreciated that.
(03:27):
It wasn't called out directly.
It was more, of feedback that came back tome maybe, six months, eight months later.
and in my work, we, in our annual review, wehave to reach out to several people for feedback.
and this person gave me, for the first time in my career,solid, actionable feedback about what was happening for me.
(03:52):
I was stunned.
My former self would have been angry.
I would have probably reacted to that, but thankfully,I recognized the beauty and the truth in it.
And, it, it did help, to change course.
Spencer (04:07):
I think that recognizing our insanity, at least for me, helps me to move into this step.
Recognizing the insanity is also part of step one,but, thinking back, this same action again and again, all of the times that I was like, you drink too much or throwing the wine bottle loudly into the recycling bin or whatever it was that I was doing to try to achieve a result that of course didn't come about.
(04:38):
But also I had, I had that anger.
I had that rage and I've talkedabout that before in the podcast.
And it showed up at work.
it showed up at home.
At the time I didn't see that as, oh, I'mangry because I'm fighting this losing battle against alcoholism, or whatever it was.
(05:00):
I just was like, I don't understandwhy I have these outbursts.
That I always apologized for afterwards.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I won't do it again.
And, of course, I did do it again.
Bruce (05:14):
right.
The other thing that was interesting to me too aboutthis path has been the other forms of insanity.
Anger is probably the most common, but the manipulation,The pleading, the threatening, the drama, dramatic events.
you mentioned throwing a wine bottle and I, I actuallythrew one in my basement one day and, I think I'm still actually finding, small bits of that somewhere.
(05:40):
and yeah, that's not exactly appropriate now, is it?
That's not the way that we live as human beings.
Spencer (05:45):
I like that the paragraph ends with, regardless of the impact, regardless of how out of control our lives seem, help is available.
Because that is the promise in this step, right?
There is help.
Bruce (06:00):
Yeah, that was another thing that I had noted in my head about this is the, all the different ways that help is out there.
And it's not just, it's not justgoing to an Al-Anon meeting.
it's also the fellowship that comes from Al-Anon, andall the close relationships that, that I've been able to build, in the program and that it's just irreplaceable.
the community, is amazing.
(06:22):
And, People from all walks of life.
And that's one thing that I really appreciate about that.
But also things like this, Spencer, your podcast,or there's a myriad of other podcasts out there and ways to get and find that help, it's huge.
Spencer (06:36):
Absolutely.
You want to read the next paragraph?
Bruce (06:39):
Sure.
The alcoholic cannot heal our wounds, neither canour willpower, quick wittedness, or perseverance.
Turning to these sources again and again is no moreuseful or sane than going to a car lot to buy groceries.
Having continually failed to resolve ourdifficulties ourselves, most of us finally realize we must look for help in a more promising place.
(06:59):
What we seek is something greater, beyond our own abilities.
A source of help, comfort, guidance, andstrength unrestricted by our human limitations.
Our need for such assistance has become obvious.
But so many of our needs have gone unsatisfiedin the past that we hardly dare to hope that we might find the help we need.
In the process of taking step two, we open ourhearts and minds to the possibility that such a power could actually exist in our lives.
Spencer (07:27):
the first sentence there.
Neither can our willpower, quickwittedness, or perseverance.
Ugh.
How much willpower and perseverance and whatever.
I don't know about quick witted.
I feel like if I'd been quick witted enough,I would have given up, but maybe not.
How much time did I spend trying to, heal our wounds?
(07:51):
I'm not sure I even recognized I was wounded.
I think I was trying to heal the alcoholic.
yeah, going to a car lot to buy groceries.
okay.
I've owned this book for over 20 And I remembergoing to the hardware store for milk or bread, but I do not remember going to a car lot to buy groceries, which is also equally, counterproductive.
(08:16):
yeah.
Bruce (08:17):
It's borderline ridiculous, right?
Spencer (08:19):
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
Bruce (08:21):
And guess what?
It's somewhat insane.
Spencer (08:23):
Yeah.
What we seek is something greater beyond our own abilities.
again,
I don't know that I had the clarity of thought to even
think of looking for uh, source of help, comfort, guidance,and strength unrestricted by our human limitations.
I mean, it just was not in my thinking.
(08:44):
Our need for such assurance has become obvious.
Maybe by the time I was started to work on Step2, I was starting to see that, but man, right at the beginning, it totally was not there.
I did come to an Al-Anon meeting , okay, and I came to anAl-Anon meeting with the thought of, I've tried everything else, and what can it hurt, and I might find something.
(09:10):
I guess I was beginning that seeking.
Opening our hearts and minds to the possibilitythat such a power could actually exist in our lives.
I'm trying to take myself back to not theearliest days of being in Al-Anon, but a little bit later where I started to see.
(09:31):
That I was feeling a little better, that Iwasn't as crazy, and eventually that my rage evaporated, but that came a little bit later.
and I guess, even after my firstmeeting, I was like, okay, I felt better.
(09:51):
And I found my people that understand my life.
So right there, was work of apower outside myself, at least.
They got me to come back and come back again.
What does this paragraph say to you?
How does this emerge in your life?
Bruce (10:14):
the willpower.
Aspect of course, and I'm anAries, so, you know, here we go.
I'm going to, I'm going to jumpin and fix whatever I can do.
And I'm going to be the best, best partner, besthusband that you can imagine, because I'm going to, I'm going to fix you and, we're going to go down this path and again, coming back to the whole insanity thing, that it really doesn't, it doesn't work for us.
(10:36):
It doesn't work for me.
But such a power could actually exist in our lives, isone thing that kind of stood out to me in this paragraph.
Maybe you have to have a preconceived notionof belief, to be able to accept that power.
I don't think it's something you can take forgranted and I don't think it's something that, just, oh yeah, I'll just lean on my higher power for this, or I'll just lean on God for this.
(10:58):
If you don't have that God aspect or if that Godaspect is a trigger for you, what do you do?
That was somewhat of the struggle that I had was, okay,I grew up in a very, Christian fundamental upbringing and household and, being a Gen Xer, I was also, you know, children should be seen and not heard and, left to my own devices to essentially parent myself, unsuccessfully, of course, as I'm finding out later in life.
(11:25):
but you really need to open up to the concept of somethinggreater than yourself, whether that's the group conscience or that is, whatever you believe that is beyond yourself.
And you need to kind of lean into that.
And I think that really was a struggle for me fora while, trying to figure that out and trying to map that course It was only through some strange happenstances that I could actually get there.
(11:51):
Because otherwise I'd probablystill be struggling with that.
So it was really interesting to, to lean into that.
And once I did, once I got that, once I grasped thenotion of that, man, the universe just opened up.
It was all kinds of opportunities and signsand, ways of healing were introduced to me.
(12:12):
I think that really, got me going,and got me on a better path.
and now, of course, 18 months in, or maybe it was sixmonths into the program, so maybe a year in, I have that, that energy that I can tap into when I really need it.
And I can trust that.
and I can trust to let it go.
Spencer (12:30):
Next paragraph says, Some of us get an inkling that there might be a power that can do what we by ourselves cannot, when we first attend an Al-Anon meeting and actually experience a moment of relief from our suffering.
Having walked through the door feeling anxious andconfused, unsure about what we were looking for, we are often surprised to find ourselves feeling better and more at peace by the time we leave.
(12:56):
I'm just going to pause right here in the middleof the paragraph because that couple of sentences there so captures my first meeting experience.
Walked through the door feeling anxious andconfused, unsure about what we were looking for.
Experienced a moment of relief, surprised to find ourselvesfeeling better and more at peace by the time we leave.
(13:21):
All of that was true for me.
So, continue with the rest of the paragraph here.
Even if we were furious, shame filled, or guiltridden, there is something amazing, something transforming that happens at an Al-Anon meeting.
We can't quite put our finger on what thatsomething is, or why we come away with a greater sense of peace than we walked in with.
(13:45):
But it feels too good to ignore.
So we go to another meeting and discoverthat that something is still there.
Maybe, just maybe, we have found somesort of power that could do for us what we haven't been able to do for ourselves.
We come to believe that there could be a power greaterthan ourselves, a power greater than alcoholism.
(14:08):
So I'll let you start with your response to this one.
Bruce (14:12):
Yeah, you know, and I feel the same way that you do, with the beginning of this paragraph.
I didn't know what I didn't know going into it, right?
you have a concept in your mind of what Al-Anon is.
Possibly, maybe you heard about it somewhere.
I was thinking, Oh, good.
Okay, great.
I have another tool that I can goin to help control my qualifier.
I'm going to go in and learn some tools and techniquesthat can really make a difference, in her world.
(14:36):
And, yeah, wow.
I was so wrong.
it was interesting cause I feel, I don't have avery clear memory of my first meeting, but I came away with a feeling and that feeling is what.
keeps me coming back, that I am notalone, that there is hope out there.
People sharing that hope, people in variousstages of their own recovery sharing in that first step meeting was just golden.
(15:02):
it really, I walked away certainly a lot less confused,a lot less, guilt ridden, And I think that the energy of that, that I'm looking right at the paragraph here, even if we were furious, shame filled or guilt ridden, there's something amazing, something transforming that happens at an Al-Anon meeting.
(15:22):
And that happens from the momentthat you step through that door.
You take the courage to do that.
You find that, it really does startfrom day one, that, that transformation.
Spencer (15:35):
oh yeah.
Like you.
I don't have any memory of whatpeople said in my first meeting.
I don't remember what the topic of the meeting was.
The meeting that I started going to, andthat was my home group for over a decade, was, I guess you'd call it a lead meeting.
One of the members of the meeting would givea 10 minute lead, on a topic of their choice.
(16:00):
And then we would respond to that lead with our ownexperience, strength, and hope, or in the case of a newcomer, to just say what the hell we were going to say, because, I didn't understand that protocol really.
I know at my first meeting, there's somelittle vignettes that I still have in my head.
I know that I said, she's at name of treatmentcenter, and I hope it works this time.
(16:22):
That was the extent of my share.
but as with you Certainly by the end ofthat meeting, I knew that I wasn't alone.
And that was the huge thing thatcame out of that meeting for me.
So as it says, yeah, I came back.
I go to a meeting, another meeting, andyeah, that something is still there.
Bruce (16:40):
Right.
And the line in here too, but it feels too good to ignore.
so true.
I recall the first, probably three or fourmeetings, I recall crying, in them because it was like, I can't believe this is true.
I can't believe that there are people like me out there.
I didn't realize that's what this organizationwas about, or that's what we're doing here.
It's overwhelming.
It still is overwhelming.
Even today, we had a first step meeting becausewe had three newcomers that came into the room, crying just the way that I was crying.
(17:07):
and their shares are probably a lot like mine.
and I love that the way that the group comesaround, newcomers and embraces them and that, that is such an unbelievably good feeling.
And, it feels too good to ignore.
Yeah.
Spencer (17:25):
I think there's an alternate reading to the step that probably was.
true for me at least early, in thefirst six months to a year, maybe more.
A power other than myself.
Because I wasn't able to fix myself from inside myself.
I wasn't able to deal with the things that I wasfeeling and the ways that I was acting and reacting.
(17:52):
from inside myself when I started to get support,help, tools from outside myself, whether that is the people in the meeting, the people after the meeting also, once I actually started sticking
(18:12):
around after the meeting, the literature, Back whenI started, there weren't podcasts, so the literature and the people in the meetings was my main source.
I did encounter at some point, the idea of speakertapes, , now you can get those all over the internet, MP3 files of somebody telling their story, I've published some in the podcast stream, and I, Listen to some other streams that, that have those stories, you know.
(18:41):
So those were the sources of outside wisdom, justexperience, just ideas, just, Oh, that happened to you too.
You felt that way too.
that all together were some power.
(19:02):
outside of me that I could hook into, the wisdomexpressed in the literature was a source of power for me to start making changes in my life.
But there are some things, and again, I know I'vetalked about this in the podcast before, but it's just was so important to me that within about six months of coming into the program, I was not raging at people.
(19:32):
That was not something that Iwas consciously trying to change.
That was not something that was comingfrom, consciously from inside me, from any work that I was doing towards that end.
But it did happen.
And that was one of the factors thatreally brought me to an acceptance of an embracing , is that the right way to say that?
(19:57):
Embracing this step and the following one, thatyes, there was some power greater than myself that was restoring me to some measure of sanity,
Bruce (20:07):
Yeah, definitely.
and I feel also in, in some of this, as we'reunpacking things, there were things about me that I didn't know I had a problem with.
things that I probably should have learned when I was five.
I don't blame my parents for any way that I was raised.
They did the best they could.
and I have nothing but gratitude for them.
(20:29):
They're amazing people.
but there were a lot of things that were missingfrom my upbringing how to control my emotions and how to respond and not react to things, were the lessons that I had to learn in Al-Anon.
at a very late age, I'm in my fifties and I feel like.
I've had a lot of really good influences in my life overthe years, but Al-Anon has revolutionized, the way that I interact with the world, in a way that is more, proper.
(20:58):
And I, I didn't know that, through the decades, oflife, going back to the seventies and eighties, that wasn't necessarily something that we talked about.
And we're in a, in an age now, Post COVID,we're all talking about our feelings finally.
And we have now so many sources, to be able to helpourselves if we're just open minded enough to do it.
Spencer (21:18):
Yeah, we still have the Surgeon General of the United States saying there is an epidemic of loneliness, And I say still because we may be, many of us, connecting more deeply with others than we have in the past, but there's also still a lot of isolation
in our society, in our world, , if you're unfortunateenough to have been deeply affected by somebody else's alcoholism, you're then fortunate enough that you can find this program of recovery and of connection,
Bruce (21:50):
yeah, absolutely.
that, that's so important there.
there's help available.
Exactly.
Spencer (21:55):
there is help.
I've heard this rephrasing ofthe first three steps: it's bad.
There is help.
I can ask for it.
Step two is there is help.
It's like you have to believe that there is help availablebefore you can move on to the next step to reach out for it.
Bruce (22:13):
Yeah, truly.
Spencer (22:14):
yeah.
Okay.
I think we're around to you for reading, paragraph four.
Bruce (22:19):
In step two, what has been impossible for us on our own becomes possible because we have placed ourselves in the presence of something that surpasses our individual human capacity.
Just by attending a meeting or opening up to a sponsoror seeking solace in Al-Anon literature, we have reached out for the help of a power greater than ourselves and have tapped into the collective wisdom of our fellowship.
Spencer (22:41):
Weren't we just talking about this?
Bruce (22:42):
I think so.
Spencer (22:44):
I think we were.
Bruce (22:45):
Yeah, this is, this is great.
There's just all the things that I wantto say about each one of these things.
But yeah, something that surpassesour individual human capacity.
and you don't have to have a God, you don't have tohave a faith based, belief system to understand there's things that might be beyond our capacity to fix.
(23:07):
And this is one of them, but I think it's right.
You know, I did find a sponsor, and I am activelyworking the steps, in step four right now.
Those things do help.
And seeking solace in Al-Anon literature.
There's so much out there!
Courage to change, a day for ourselves, one day at a time.
There's just so many things to tap into.
(23:29):
That it really, when you need to lean into somethingand you're not quite there with your higher power yet, just reading one of these, one of these books, it'll tell you what you need to hear.
It'll tell you exactly what you need to hear.
Spencer (23:43):
Yeah.
I find it interesting that this reading about steptwo and, well, step two itself does not say God,
Bruce (23:52):
True.
Spencer (23:53):
that's what these days we call a trigger word for a lot of people.
it says a power greater than ourselves and, easingus into this concept of something that we might eventually learn to call or desire to call God or not.
But it never says that in here.
And that, I think, also was important tome because I'm one of these people that, God was not a word I was comfortable with.
Bruce (24:20):
I totally agree
Spencer (24:21):
Not because I was, What's the word I want here?
Not because I was indoctrinated insome specific religion as a child.
I actually grew up in a religious tradition that encourageseach of us to find our own answers, which is in itself kind of scary, but there was this picture of God that came from our mostly Protestant Christian American society.
(24:51):
The big guy up in the sky who judges you.
and I just wasn't willing to accept that.
I know when I first saw the 12 steps, which wassome years before I came into Al-Anon, I was at a treatment center and they're up there on the wall.
That word in several of the steps probably kept mefrom finding my own recovery for longer than maybe at this point I wish it had, but, is what it is.
(25:15):
Let's see.
Attending a meeting.
All right, so what I heard when I started to wakeup in meetings, when I started to say, oh, these people are, many of them still living with an alcoholic situation, but they're not, Crazy like I am.
Their lives are not as unmanageable as mine.
(25:36):
They have some happiness and someserenity and I would like that.
so I started to wake up and I waslike, okay, how did you get there?
How did you get there?
and what I heard, the way I simplifywhat I heard was go to meetings, read the literature, get a sponsor, work the steps.
Simple but not easy.
(25:57):
So I started into those things.
What it says here in the reading is meeting,sponsor, literature, and it doesn't say steps, because we're in the middle of working the steps, at this point, those are the factors that can Help.
Be at least the initial reaching out for help.
That's what it says right here.
We've reached out for help of a power greaterthan ourselves, tapped into the collective wisdom.
(26:20):
And that collective wisdom is whatI leaned on for quite a while.
Bruce (26:25):
Absolutely.
Spencer (26:26):
oh, you were talking about literature and how much we have.
So behind me, which you can see, but, our listener can't,is my Al-Anon literature from here over To here, there's a little bit of Alateen in there, and there's one non Al-Anon book in the middle that is also a daily reader.
And I don't have all the books, but it's,about 18 inches of books, there's a lot, yes.
(26:48):
Sometimes I'm like, there's so much literature.
Bruce (26:52):
I agree with you, and yes, this step does not involve the God word, but it's like you said, previously that, yeah, it's in the steps and it's in the literature.
It's in the words of each step.
And that also inhibited me at first aswell, until I did some real soul searching.
as I had mentioned, I was raised a Christian fundamentaluntil I was about 18 and then drifted for a while.
(27:16):
I managed to find the martial arts, in my20s and 30s and practiced, a bit of Buddhism and Taoism and meditation, for a while.
And then I drifted again a little bit, maintained that,that sort of almost take what you like and leave the rest.
And I didn't know that concept, outsideof, Al-Anon, but I was doing exactly that.
(27:37):
It was, the martial artist, Bruce Lee, that, he builthis martial arts by taking different aspects of different martial arts to apply to his own, he made it his own.
So he literally practiced takewhat you like and leave the rest.
Going on a little further, I explored atheism as well.
I have a couple of relatives that are atheists andtheir influence kind of sunk in a little bit and I needed to search that out for myself as well.
(28:02):
But, what really triggered me was, I waswatching, and I'm not into horror movies.
I grew up in a haunted house.
So as you can imagine, that's rather triggering, butI started watching horror stories that were based on true stories and went down that rabbit hole for a little while and came across a couple of documentaries of the people that these movies are based on and
(28:25):
hearing their thoughts about the afterlife and, or,Dark energy that appears in this planet, in this realm, it helped me to open the door up, to belief of, there is something beyond us, there is something here that we're not totally aware of, and that helped me a lot.
But then, coming full circle and what really nailed it forme was listening to a comedian by the name of Pete Holmes.
(28:52):
and he's hilarious.
I love the guy.
One of the things he said, and I'm like, why amI learning this from a comedian was God is the blanket term we use to give the great mystery a shape I'm like, Whoa, what just happened there?
wow.
That mean that I don't have to assign God tobe some bearded deity in the sky judging me?
(29:16):
That it's all just part of the great mystery?
And that resonates with me.
That is a great mystery.
Because the power of Al-Anon, the power of being exposedto all the things in Al-Anon, Helps me with that mystery.
It is part of that mystery.
it's, it's a magic to me that I don't possess that I'mexposed to when I step into a room with, with, anywhere from 10 to 15, 20 people, all experiencing the same things.
Spencer (29:42):
Yeah.
Bruce (29:43):
Sorry for the tangent there.
Spencer (29:45):
Yeah.
Good tangent.
Good tangent.
Because one of the things that I hear from listeners is,I don't know how to do the God thing, or I have a lot of trouble with God and that's kept me away from 12 Steps.
So highlighting different people's paths to get here.
Can help us to, to find our own pathwhen we thought we were blocked.
(30:09):
And that's important.
Bruce (30:11):
Yeah, it really is.
Spencer (30:14):
So here we are at the last paragraph.
In time, we come to believe that only a power greaterthan ourselves has the power to restore us to sanity.
To take step two, we don't have to believethat this will happen, only that it could.
Step two is about possibility,and that is why it is about hope.
(30:34):
And again, the wording of the step itself, came tobelieve--- there's an implicit we at the beginning of every step because it's recounting the experience of the people who've come before us in recovery.
So we came to believe that a power greaterthan ourselves could restore us to sanity.
(30:58):
it doesn't even say will restore us tosanity, or would restore us, it says could.
it's about possibility, as it says here.
I think that was part of the wisdom of making twelve steps.
If we look at the history of AA, Bill W.
was a member of the Oxford groups and they had six steps.
Bruce (31:19):
did not know that.
Spencer (31:20):
yeah, which also was a completely Christian organization.
I think some of the languagestill is affected by that origin.
Particularly if you go and read thebig book, which was published in 1939.
they weren't too far away from theirorigins in the Oxford group at that point.
But, I think he said, yeah, us alcoholics, we will findall the wiggle room we can to get out of this thing.
(31:49):
and we need to make the steps smaller and easierto take a bite out, and probably in the Oxford group, you didn't even have to come to believe.
Like you, you came in yeah, I'ma Christian, so I do believe.
Having said that, I have talked to a lot of people whogrew up with Christianity, and maybe they were okay with this notion of a power greater than themselves, but that, that power would or could restore them to sanity.
(32:18):
They had a lot of trouble with thatpart of this very short sentence.
The God that I learned as a child, judgesme and is going to send me to hell.
He's not going to help me.
He's not going to, restore me to sanity.
That's my job.
I've got to do that myself.
So there's all different kinds of ways Differentpeople have had trouble with this step.
(32:41):
But yes, it is about possibility man,it's like, could restore us to sanity.
yeah, I want that.
For me, once I got past this power greater thanmyself part, I'm like, yeah, I want to be sane.
I didn't realize it was insane, but nowyou've convinced me that that's true.
So let's bring me back to health.
Sanity is like healthy mind or healthy spirit or something.
(33:03):
that's what I want.
Bruce (33:05):
Yeah, I agree.
I do like that it doesn't say, it will.
I like that it says, only that it could.
It's not a promise.
It's not telling you.
It's just encouraging you.
And I find that to be encouraging.
that does give me hope.
That it could.
Because, I'm sorry, in the years of now being inAl-Anon, I'm realizing how fickle serenity is.
(33:31):
much less sanity.
and I'm still learning about myself, but serenity isan amazingly fickle element, you know, I, I describe it as, the sun on a cloudy day, you might see it, but you might not, and it's good to know that it could do that.
That, that taking step two or reading thesteps or being an Al-Anon could do that.
(33:53):
yeah.
and that is in the end, the last, Iwas actually going to say it myself.
That's why it's all about hope.
Spencer (34:00):
absolutely.
thank you.
let's talk about music, and then we'll come backto our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our lives today.
You with apparently no problem, pickedthree songs to bring to the podcast.
What's your first one?
Bruce (34:18):
You, you say no problem, which is funny because I struggled.
This is the biggest part that I struggled with.
Being a musician and knowing thatthere's a world of possibility out there.
The first song I picked was Running to Stand Still by U2.
The lines are.
Sweet the sin, bitter the taste in my mouth.
I see seven towers, but I only see one way out.
(34:40):
You gotta cry without weeping, talk withoutspeaking, scream without raising your voice.
She walks through the streets with her eyes paintedred under a black belly of cloud in the rain.
She is raging, she is raging, andthe storm blows up in her eyes.
She will suffer the needle chill,she's running to stand still.
Spencer (34:59):
So this perhaps is capturing the experience before Al-Anon, before finding a power.
this is about the insanity.
Bruce (35:08):
Yeah, and what speaks to me too is you get a cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice.
I find strength in that.
I find, a guidance in those words thathelp respond to things rather than being triggered by them and reacting to things.
Spencer (35:35):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Would you like to start, Bruce?
Bruce (35:44):
Yeah, sure.
I'm in a transitional pivot phase in my life, inthat my qualifier and I are splitting up, which has its own challenges and its own complications.
And we're still under the same roof together.
This is all still very brand new.
but, I'm noticing how life has a wayof coming together at points, right?
(36:04):
You have divergence and convergence.
And I'm very much coming to a pointright now in my life where I feel like Everything is literally falling into place.
I don't have all the answers and Idon't have all of it figured out.
And I'm leaning into the program going, that's okay.
That's okay.
I can take it one day at a time.
(36:25):
I can take it step by step.
I can let go and let things develop around me.
I don't have to make a decision abouteverything that's coming up in my life.
then, of course, today having a first step meeting withthree newcomers in my home group, really also gave me perspective on, Where I came from, and the past that I've had, not only, the struggles that I had for the first eight years of the relationship that is about to end, but also, the last 18 months of my own recovery.
(36:57):
knowing that I was that way when I first steppedinto the room, that I was the one in tears.
I was the one that was havingmy insides on my outside, right?
Being exposed and being vulnerable, but then findingthrough community and fellowship, the comfort that I needed.
Spencer (37:18):
One of my themes, if you've been listening to the podcast at all, you know that one of my recovery themes is acceptance.
That is something that I need to work continuouslybecause in all aspects of my life, things happen.
things come up that are not what I wanted them to be.
(37:39):
I was on vacation for two weeks and I did not doany of my exercise program while I was on vacation.
Totally slacked on that.
Even the stuff that I could have done juston the floor, wherever we were, I didn't do.
And I kind of knew that was going to happen, and Ididn't really make an effort to actually, do some of it.
(38:03):
So I knew I was going to, coming back after two weeks,coming back to the gym, I was going to be out of shape.
I was going to meet with my trainer on Thursday, soI thought, I can go in on Tuesday, see how far back I've slid, how many reps I can't do for each exercise
tuesday, I had an allergy attack.
(38:24):
So I was not able to get into the gym on Tuesdayand Wednesday didn't work either and so I come in on Thursday and I'm coming up to meet with the trainer I said, yeah I totally slacked over vacation, he's
standing there with the sheet where I record myexercises, he says, yeah, I was going to say something about that, so here we are, I guess this is like step 10 when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
(38:47):
get that out of the way, own up toit, and then let's move forward.
and, yeah, I was not able to, to do as many reps or asmuch weight as had been the case, two weeks earlier.
I was reading somewhere that as we age, we also loseour toning or whatever you want to call it more quickly.
(39:08):
yeah, this is true.
as a young person, I probably could haveskipped two weeks and been no problem, but as a 60 something, it's not so true anymore.
Also related to this and health is I've gotsome hip pain and, I actually saw my doctor this week and I said, Hey, I got this hip pain.
And he pokes at it and he says, itcould be the bursa being inflamed.
(39:31):
I think you call that bursitis.
Okay.
One of those old people things.
at least that's the way I feel about it.
or he said it could be IT band syndrome.
So I got a referral to PT.
That's where we're starting.
Start with PT, right?
and I'm just accepting what it is and how it limitsme, when I was starting to do squats with a weight.
(39:54):
Pain.
He's okay, put the weight down.
Let's do this other exercise.
I want you to feel how this particular musclein your glutes is working during this exercise.
Okay.
Now let's do squats with no weight.
And then I could do that.
I'm like, damn, I was like makingprogress and a huge step back.
It is what it is.
(40:15):
And I'm doing what I can, that's like a huge part of thiswhole acceptance thing for me is, okay, here's where I am.
This is what I can do now.
And now let go because I can't do anything more, butI will be able to later and we'll come back to it.
So that was important.
(40:35):
and then there was something else.
One of my meetings, it's a hybrid meeting.
The Zoom portion of the meeting is working through thebook, Reaching for Personal Freedom, which is a workbook for the steps and traditions and concepts of service.
We're in the traditions and we're in tradition 11,which is about attraction rather than promotion.
(41:02):
The two questions that we talked about yesterdayare, in what ways can I be an example of the Al-Anon program to my family and friends?
And how does Tradition 11 reinforce the idea that weare responsible only for our part in any situation?
For me, that first one, when I was early inAl-Anon, I was like, yo, Al-Anon, yay, yay, you know, everybody should do it, right?
(41:26):
tried to push my kids into it, that didn't work.
but Now that they're adults, they occasionallycome back and ask for the benefit of my experience.
I have this situation.
I'm not sure how to deal with it.
What do you think?
And then I get to be an example.
I get to share my experience, strength, and hope.
(41:46):
I get to share my ideas without saying, this is whatyou should do, but say, this might work for you.
you might try this.
In one case, my, my son, who was in the middle ofa situation and called, I don't know what to do.
And I said, you could try this or this and, understandthis about the situation that you're in could be helpful.
(42:08):
And then he called back and said, okay, this happened.
Now what?
it's wow, like my kids see that Iactually have something to share.
And it's not because I pushed it on them for 20 years.
It's because I have lived as an example ofusing these principles in my interpersonal relationships, which is what that situation was totally about, interpersonal relationship.
(42:34):
It was gratifying.
To recognize that, my example of livingthese principles actually is visible.
Even if they don't want to do it themselves,they're still willing to say, and what do you think?
What would you do?
so that was cool.
now we're going to look forward in thepodcast and say, what's coming next.
(42:58):
What's coming next is more steps.
But whatever the topic, we welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation here.
Leave a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback or your questions.
And Bruce, how can people do that?
Bruce (43:13):
you can send a voice memo or email to feedback at therecovery.
show, or if you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope, oryour questions about today's topic of Step 2, or any of our upcoming topics, including more steps.
(43:40):
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you'd like advanced notice for some of our topics sothat you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for a mailing list by sending an email to feedback at therecovery.
show.
Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
Spencer (43:56):
Our website is, as you may have guessed, the recovery dot show.
there are also some other aliases for that.
Where we have all the information aboutthe show, including the notes for each episode, mostly the notes for each episode.
We'll have links to the book, that we read from today.
I did mention at least one other book.
I'll try to remember to put a link to that onein, and we have, music videos for the songs that Bruce chose, you can also find some links there to other recovery podcasts and websites.
Bruce (44:28):
Our second musical selection available on the website.
is Blasphemous Rumors by Depeche Mode.
And Spencer, I have to say that I really, I'd like tosee what your music collection is like because I think you've probably amassed quite the collection of songs over the years, but, I'll get into the reading here.
I like this song.
It's interesting.
(44:49):
the, there's three lines in it that Ithink are, what really stand out to me.
And I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors,but I think that God's got a sick sense of humor.
And when I die, I expect to find him laughing.
I don't know if there's a deity in the sky thatyou're going to expect to meet on the other side of this, but I do find that there is a rather ironic sense of humor in the universe.
Spencer (45:12):
I like the idea that whatever God is or isn't, that he laughs.
Bruce (45:20):
Because all we can do is laugh at ourselves, right?
Spencer (45:23):
I never expected to find so much laughter in our meetings as we often have.
It's not so much, I think, that we're laughing atourselves, but that we're laughing with ourselves.
Bruce (45:35):
yeah, even today I was a little self conscious with new people in the room and the banter and the laughter that, happened between, a couple of shares, I think broke a little bit of the intensity of the meeting,
which was nice, but I also wonder how that resonateswith newcomers, but yeah, I really, I definitely felt that humor aspect today and it was so refreshing.
Spencer (46:04):
We got a bit of listener feedback this week.
Britt writes, Hi Spencer, a couple things.
First, I wrote to you a couple years ago about howmy social anxiety kept me from meetings and that your show is so helpful to me as another option.
You gave me a shout out on a following episodeletting me know that you hoped one day I could walk in the door or attend an online meeting.
(46:25):
Happy to report I have been attending ACA, Adult Childrenof Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Family, meetings for a year.
I have a weekly home in person meeting,and a fellow traveler, aka sponsor.
I am not the same person I was a year ago.
I set boundaries.
I'm a more patient parent.
I saw behind the false self andwas introduced to the real me.
(46:46):
She's amazing.
Thank you for your encouragement.
I'm going to pause here and say,wow, Britt, that is astounding.
The progress that.
you express here, from when you lastwrote, and I'm so glad to hear from you.
Thank you for letting me know about it.
Britt continues, Second, I'm listening to episode 412 withBarb W., and I am connecting so strongly with her story.
(47:13):
If she's listening, I hope she also knows about ACA.
It might be a great addition to her program.
Thank you for all you do, Spencer.
Take care, and be well.
Britt.
Again, Britt, thanks for writing.
Got a voicemail from Sunny
Sunny (47:28):
Hi, Spencer.
My name is Sunny.
I live in Sacramento, California.
I'm 52 years old, a partial single mom, I guess you'dsay, of two young kids, 8 and 11, and grew up in an alcoholic family, very dysfunctional with a mom.
who is an alcoholic from around when I was inthird grade, onward, who I don't have much of a relationship with, and then a very codependent, lovely father, but extremely codependent, and they're still married and still live in the same house.
(48:00):
I, realized on November 4th of this pastyear that I had a lot of problems in my life.
A lot of rage, a lot of just, trouble makingmajor life decisions, and started my own recovery.
I found your show first, and it's helped me quite a bit.
(48:20):
but I've been somewhat watching the parade versusbeing in the parade, if that makes any sense.
And I'm now ready to take my.
Recovery to another level.
I have a few of the books, but my question foryou is, I need to start working the steps of either Al Anon or ACA, and it's somewhat daunting.
(48:41):
I'm going to buy a book.
I have Courage to Change, The Daily Reader, and I've beenreading that, and I have an Al Anon weekly meeting I attend.
on Wednesdays, but I'm ready to set more time asideto working the steps because I have a lot of rage in my house, and I want to try to break this chain.
Could you please let me know on your show or on a voicemailor email if you recommend that I try to go through the steps through ACA and look for books in that area?
(49:13):
Because of my mom being the alcoholic, andgrowing up in an alcoholic family with her, or if I'm okay to do it through Al Anon.
It's a lot of time and energy to figure out whereto start here, and I appreciate, helping since I'm a single mom and work full time and have two young kids.
I'm very grateful that I found you and justtrying to work through all your episodes to help me steer the ship late in life.
(49:39):
Thanks.
Spencer (49:40):
thanks for calling, Sunny . From your voicemail, it sounds like you're attending Al Anon meetings, but maybe not ACA meetings.
In which case, the answer that I would give to yourquestion about whether to go through the steps in ACA is not unless you can get an ACA sponsor or fellow traveler, as I guess it's also called in ACA, to help you with that and to have an ACA meeting in your schedule.
(50:08):
if Al Anon is what you're doing now, then again,finding a sponsor, I think could be very helpful.
Or asking somebody in your meeting if theycould be like a step buddy or something.
you say you want to buy a book, I would suggest, fromthe Al Anon perspective, either Paths to Recovery, which is, a book specifically aimed at working the steps.
(50:32):
or How Al Anon Works, which is a moregeneral book about the Al Anon program.
It includes short descriptions of each step.
But really, having a sponsor or a step buddy if a sponsorfeels too heavyweight, I think could be very helpful.
Carly wrote, hello.
(50:53):
So happy you're still doing the podcast.
I find it so encouraging.
Just listened to Pat Roos, that was episode 414, SurvivingAlex, A Mother's Story of Love, Loss and Addiction.
Carly continues, I have a 46 year old son who has beenin jail since January due to his criminal behavior.
(51:14):
He started using drugs and stoppedhis medication for schizophrenia.
He needs help, not punishment.
He continues to refuse medication in jail.
Without some intervention, the situation seems hopeless.
I am looking forward to reading Surviving Alex.
Thanks, Carly B.
Thanks for writing, Carly.
(51:34):
I feel for you there.
When my son ended up in a psych ward because ofhis behavior, it was, Quite a scary situation.
Luckily for him and for us, hissituation resolved, fairly quickly.
At least he didn't end up in jail.
They sent him to the psych hospitalinstead of jail for his behavior.
(51:56):
That would have been, wow, so much worse.
Got a voicemail from an Anonymous listener.
Anonymous (52:02):
Hey, Spencer.
Thank you so much for your wonderful interviewwith Pat, who wrote the book, Surviving Alex.
Such an important topic, and it was so great to hearher experience strength and hope through this process.
I wonder if there are any, actionable steps forpeople who would really like to contribute to the decriminalization and the destigmatization of, addiction.
(52:37):
I will look at the website andsee what there is available there.
I just wanted to thank you.
It was very powerful and I really appreciated hearing it.
Thanks.
Always.
Spencer (52:48):
Thanks for calling, yeah, I would suggest starting with Pat's website for resources.
It seems like there were quite a few resources there.
And that's it for this week.
Bruce, I want to thank you so much forjoining me today for our conversation about Step 2 and for a little bit of laughter.
Bruce (53:06):
Our last song selection is Barstool Warrior by Dream Theater.
This might be a little bit heavier for somelisteners, but you can listen to that at the recovery.
show slash 415.
The lyrics that I picked were, Was it bad luck?
Was it fate?
Or a past that she couldn't escape?
It's not right.
(53:27):
Something's wrong.
Just where do I belong?
Promises made, crying in vain, all empty, neveraccepting the blame, and not letting go of the shame.
A river of tears as months turn to years, all wasted andsomeone not willing to change, now only a shadow remains.
No one can save you, and there's no one to see.
It has all been written, you will becomeall you think, all you feel, all you dream.
(53:51):
Now I'm cutting the anchor away, and I won't look back,I'm starting a new life today, now I see where I belong.
Spencer (53:58):
that's a journey, that song.
Bruce (54:00):
yeah, it definitely is.
And I'm actually impressed that Iread through that without crying.
Cause that is definitely a trigger song for me,but I feel that is where I'm at today, even in my own life of I'm starting a new life today.
And I think that's anybody walking into an Al-Anon meeting.
That's anybody picking up the Al-Anon literature,talking to their sponsor, engaging in, in fellowship, You're starting a new life today.
(54:24):
and that is where I belong.
Spencer (54:31):
Thank you for listening, and please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
once I grasped the notion of that, man, the universe just opened up.
It was all kinds of opportunities and signsand, ways of healing were introduced to me.
Spencer (00:12):
Welcome to episode 415 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Colin,Tina, Cliff, Marsha, Laura, Susan, and May.
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Colin, Tina, Cliff, Marsha, Laura,Susan, and May for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
(00:32):
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Bruce (00:49):
Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During the show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:08):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today, and joining me today is Bruce.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Bruce.
Bruce (01:14):
Thank you, Spencer.
Appreciate it.
Spencer (01:16):
As you might have guessed from the introduction, we're going to be talking today about Step 2, and I'll repeat that.
Came to believe that a power greater thanourselves could restore us to sanity.
We'll be reading from the book How Al-Anon Worksfor Family and Friends of Alcoholics in Chapter 8, which is the 12 steps, The section for Step 2.
(01:37):
First paragraph says, and I find it interesting thatit starts with the insanity part, but there we are.
Bruce (01:44):
yeah.
Spencer (01:45):
One definition of insanity is performing the same action again and again, each time expecting to achieve a different result.
Any of us who have been affected bythe family disease of alcoholism have experienced this and other forms of insanity.
Living with the effects of another's alcoholismhas given us a lopsided view of life.
Yet, no matter how distorted our outlook or how out ofcontrol our lives seem, and regardless of the impact of the alcoholic's behavior, help is available to us.
(02:15):
What does this say to you now?
Bruce (02:17):
I will stop at the fourth word of the first paragraph, insanity.
it reminds me so much of where I was and Ihad been with my qualifier for eight years before she discovered her own recovery.
and I didn't know I was insane.
(02:38):
I didn't know that I was repeating all thebad behaviors or that I was in any way, shape or form inhibiting her recovery.
I just thought as the classic overthinker,people pleaser, I can fix my qualifier.
I can repair a house.
I can build a deck.
I can remodel and create things.
I'm going to fix this.
And of course, the definition is described rightthere on the first paragraph, I didn't realize I was insane until somebody actually pointed it out to me.
(03:05):
I didn't have the path where somebody said, Oh,you should go to Al-Anon or, Oh, I recognize this as alcoholic, behavior and you should, seek help or go here and figure this out.
instead of came.
through an off channel.
I was angry at work and had a couple ofoutbursts that were unprofessional and, I got called out on it and I really appreciated that.
(03:27):
It wasn't called out directly.
It was more, of feedback that came back tome maybe, six months, eight months later.
and in my work, we, in our annual review, wehave to reach out to several people for feedback.
and this person gave me, for the first time in my career,solid, actionable feedback about what was happening for me.
(03:52):
I was stunned.
My former self would have been angry.
I would have probably reacted to that, but thankfully,I recognized the beauty and the truth in it.
And, it, it did help, to change course.
Spencer (04:07):
I think that recognizing our insanity, at least for me, helps me to move into this step.
Recognizing the insanity is also part of step one,but, thinking back, this same action again and again, all of the times that I was like, you drink too much or throwing the wine bottle loudly into the recycling bin or whatever it was that I was doing to try to achieve a result that of course didn't come about.
(04:38):
But also I had, I had that anger.
I had that rage and I've talkedabout that before in the podcast.
And it showed up at work.
it showed up at home.
At the time I didn't see that as, oh, I'mangry because I'm fighting this losing battle against alcoholism, or whatever it was.
(05:00):
I just was like, I don't understandwhy I have these outbursts.
That I always apologized for afterwards.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I won't do it again.
And, of course, I did do it again.
Bruce (05:14):
right.
The other thing that was interesting to me too aboutthis path has been the other forms of insanity.
Anger is probably the most common, but the manipulation,The pleading, the threatening, the drama, dramatic events.
you mentioned throwing a wine bottle and I, I actuallythrew one in my basement one day and, I think I'm still actually finding, small bits of that somewhere.
(05:40):
and yeah, that's not exactly appropriate now, is it?
That's not the way that we live as human beings.
Spencer (05:45):
I like that the paragraph ends with, regardless of the impact, regardless of how out of control our lives seem, help is available.
Because that is the promise in this step, right?
There is help.
Bruce (06:00):
Yeah, that was another thing that I had noted in my head about this is the, all the different ways that help is out there.
And it's not just, it's not justgoing to an Al-Anon meeting.
it's also the fellowship that comes from Al-Anon, andall the close relationships that, that I've been able to build, in the program and that it's just irreplaceable.
the community, is amazing.
(06:22):
And, People from all walks of life.
And that's one thing that I really appreciate about that.
But also things like this, Spencer, your podcast,or there's a myriad of other podcasts out there and ways to get and find that help, it's huge.
Spencer (06:36):
Absolutely.
You want to read the next paragraph?
Bruce (06:39):
Sure.
The alcoholic cannot heal our wounds, neither canour willpower, quick wittedness, or perseverance.
Turning to these sources again and again is no moreuseful or sane than going to a car lot to buy groceries.
Having continually failed to resolve ourdifficulties ourselves, most of us finally realize we must look for help in a more promising place.
(06:59):
What we seek is something greater, beyond our own abilities.
A source of help, comfort, guidance, andstrength unrestricted by our human limitations.
Our need for such assistance has become obvious.
But so many of our needs have gone unsatisfiedin the past that we hardly dare to hope that we might find the help we need.
In the process of taking step two, we open ourhearts and minds to the possibility that such a power could actually exist in our lives.
Spencer (07:27):
the first sentence there.
Neither can our willpower, quickwittedness, or perseverance.
Ugh.
How much willpower and perseverance and whatever.
I don't know about quick witted.
I feel like if I'd been quick witted enough,I would have given up, but maybe not.
How much time did I spend trying to, heal our wounds?
(07:51):
I'm not sure I even recognized I was wounded.
I think I was trying to heal the alcoholic.
yeah, going to a car lot to buy groceries.
okay.
I've owned this book for over 20 And I remembergoing to the hardware store for milk or bread, but I do not remember going to a car lot to buy groceries, which is also equally, counterproductive.
(08:16):
yeah.
Bruce (08:17):
It's borderline ridiculous, right?
Spencer (08:19):
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
Bruce (08:21):
And guess what?
It's somewhat insane.
Spencer (08:23):
Yeah.
What we seek is something greater beyond our own abilities.
again,
I don't know that I had the clarity of thought to even
think of looking for uh, source of help, comfort, guidance,and strength unrestricted by our human limitations.
I mean, it just was not in my thinking.
(08:44):
Our need for such assurance has become obvious.
Maybe by the time I was started to work on Step2, I was starting to see that, but man, right at the beginning, it totally was not there.
I did come to an Al-Anon meeting , okay, and I came to anAl-Anon meeting with the thought of, I've tried everything else, and what can it hurt, and I might find something.
(09:10):
I guess I was beginning that seeking.
Opening our hearts and minds to the possibilitythat such a power could actually exist in our lives.
I'm trying to take myself back to not theearliest days of being in Al-Anon, but a little bit later where I started to see.
(09:31):
That I was feeling a little better, that Iwasn't as crazy, and eventually that my rage evaporated, but that came a little bit later.
and I guess, even after my firstmeeting, I was like, okay, I felt better.
(09:51):
And I found my people that understand my life.
So right there, was work of apower outside myself, at least.
They got me to come back and come back again.
What does this paragraph say to you?
How does this emerge in your life?
Bruce (10:14):
the willpower.
Aspect of course, and I'm anAries, so, you know, here we go.
I'm going to, I'm going to jumpin and fix whatever I can do.
And I'm going to be the best, best partner, besthusband that you can imagine, because I'm going to, I'm going to fix you and, we're going to go down this path and again, coming back to the whole insanity thing, that it really doesn't, it doesn't work for us.
(10:36):
It doesn't work for me.
But such a power could actually exist in our lives, isone thing that kind of stood out to me in this paragraph.
Maybe you have to have a preconceived notionof belief, to be able to accept that power.
I don't think it's something you can take forgranted and I don't think it's something that, just, oh yeah, I'll just lean on my higher power for this, or I'll just lean on God for this.
(10:58):
If you don't have that God aspect or if that Godaspect is a trigger for you, what do you do?
That was somewhat of the struggle that I had was, okay,I grew up in a very, Christian fundamental upbringing and household and, being a Gen Xer, I was also, you know, children should be seen and not heard and, left to my own devices to essentially parent myself, unsuccessfully, of course, as I'm finding out later in life.
(11:25):
but you really need to open up to the concept of somethinggreater than yourself, whether that's the group conscience or that is, whatever you believe that is beyond yourself.
And you need to kind of lean into that.
And I think that really was a struggle for me fora while, trying to figure that out and trying to map that course It was only through some strange happenstances that I could actually get there.
(11:51):
Because otherwise I'd probablystill be struggling with that.
So it was really interesting to, to lean into that.
And once I did, once I got that, once I grasped thenotion of that, man, the universe just opened up.
It was all kinds of opportunities and signsand, ways of healing were introduced to me.
(12:12):
I think that really, got me going,and got me on a better path.
and now, of course, 18 months in, or maybe it was sixmonths into the program, so maybe a year in, I have that, that energy that I can tap into when I really need it.
And I can trust that.
and I can trust to let it go.
Spencer (12:30):
Next paragraph says, Some of us get an inkling that there might be a power that can do what we by ourselves cannot, when we first attend an Al-Anon meeting and actually experience a moment of relief from our suffering.
Having walked through the door feeling anxious andconfused, unsure about what we were looking for, we are often surprised to find ourselves feeling better and more at peace by the time we leave.
(12:56):
I'm just going to pause right here in the middleof the paragraph because that couple of sentences there so captures my first meeting experience.
Walked through the door feeling anxious andconfused, unsure about what we were looking for.
Experienced a moment of relief, surprised to find ourselvesfeeling better and more at peace by the time we leave.
(13:21):
All of that was true for me.
So, continue with the rest of the paragraph here.
Even if we were furious, shame filled, or guiltridden, there is something amazing, something transforming that happens at an Al-Anon meeting.
We can't quite put our finger on what thatsomething is, or why we come away with a greater sense of peace than we walked in with.
(13:45):
But it feels too good to ignore.
So we go to another meeting and discoverthat that something is still there.
Maybe, just maybe, we have found somesort of power that could do for us what we haven't been able to do for ourselves.
We come to believe that there could be a power greaterthan ourselves, a power greater than alcoholism.
(14:08):
So I'll let you start with your response to this one.
Bruce (14:12):
Yeah, you know, and I feel the same way that you do, with the beginning of this paragraph.
I didn't know what I didn't know going into it, right?
you have a concept in your mind of what Al-Anon is.
Possibly, maybe you heard about it somewhere.
I was thinking, Oh, good.
Okay, great.
I have another tool that I can goin to help control my qualifier.
I'm going to go in and learn some tools and techniquesthat can really make a difference, in her world.
(14:36):
And, yeah, wow.
I was so wrong.
it was interesting cause I feel, I don't have avery clear memory of my first meeting, but I came away with a feeling and that feeling is what.
keeps me coming back, that I am notalone, that there is hope out there.
People sharing that hope, people in variousstages of their own recovery sharing in that first step meeting was just golden.
(15:02):
it really, I walked away certainly a lot less confused,a lot less, guilt ridden, And I think that the energy of that, that I'm looking right at the paragraph here, even if we were furious, shame filled or guilt ridden, there's something amazing, something transforming that happens at an Al-Anon meeting.
(15:22):
And that happens from the momentthat you step through that door.
You take the courage to do that.
You find that, it really does startfrom day one, that, that transformation.
Spencer (15:35):
oh yeah.
Like you.
I don't have any memory of whatpeople said in my first meeting.
I don't remember what the topic of the meeting was.
The meeting that I started going to, andthat was my home group for over a decade, was, I guess you'd call it a lead meeting.
One of the members of the meeting would givea 10 minute lead, on a topic of their choice.
(16:00):
And then we would respond to that lead with our ownexperience, strength, and hope, or in the case of a newcomer, to just say what the hell we were going to say, because, I didn't understand that protocol really.
I know at my first meeting, there's somelittle vignettes that I still have in my head.
I know that I said, she's at name of treatmentcenter, and I hope it works this time.
(16:22):
That was the extent of my share.
but as with you Certainly by the end ofthat meeting, I knew that I wasn't alone.
And that was the huge thing thatcame out of that meeting for me.
So as it says, yeah, I came back.
I go to a meeting, another meeting, andyeah, that something is still there.
Bruce (16:40):
Right.
And the line in here too, but it feels too good to ignore.
so true.
I recall the first, probably three or fourmeetings, I recall crying, in them because it was like, I can't believe this is true.
I can't believe that there are people like me out there.
I didn't realize that's what this organizationwas about, or that's what we're doing here.
It's overwhelming.
It still is overwhelming.
Even today, we had a first step meeting becausewe had three newcomers that came into the room, crying just the way that I was crying.
(17:07):
and their shares are probably a lot like mine.
and I love that the way that the group comesaround, newcomers and embraces them and that, that is such an unbelievably good feeling.
And, it feels too good to ignore.
Yeah.
Spencer (17:25):
I think there's an alternate reading to the step that probably was.
true for me at least early, in thefirst six months to a year, maybe more.
A power other than myself.
Because I wasn't able to fix myself from inside myself.
I wasn't able to deal with the things that I wasfeeling and the ways that I was acting and reacting.
(17:52):
from inside myself when I started to get support,help, tools from outside myself, whether that is the people in the meeting, the people after the meeting also, once I actually started sticking
(18:12):
around after the meeting, the literature, Back whenI started, there weren't podcasts, so the literature and the people in the meetings was my main source.
I did encounter at some point, the idea of speakertapes, , now you can get those all over the internet, MP3 files of somebody telling their story, I've published some in the podcast stream, and I, Listen to some other streams that, that have those stories, you know.
(18:41):
So those were the sources of outside wisdom, justexperience, just ideas, just, Oh, that happened to you too.
You felt that way too.
that all together were some power.
(19:02):
outside of me that I could hook into, the wisdomexpressed in the literature was a source of power for me to start making changes in my life.
But there are some things, and again, I know I'vetalked about this in the podcast before, but it's just was so important to me that within about six months of coming into the program, I was not raging at people.
(19:32):
That was not something that Iwas consciously trying to change.
That was not something that was comingfrom, consciously from inside me, from any work that I was doing towards that end.
But it did happen.
And that was one of the factors thatreally brought me to an acceptance of an embracing , is that the right way to say that?
(19:57):
Embracing this step and the following one, thatyes, there was some power greater than myself that was restoring me to some measure of sanity,
Bruce (20:07):
Yeah, definitely.
and I feel also in, in some of this, as we'reunpacking things, there were things about me that I didn't know I had a problem with.
things that I probably should have learned when I was five.
I don't blame my parents for any way that I was raised.
They did the best they could.
and I have nothing but gratitude for them.
(20:29):
They're amazing people.
but there were a lot of things that were missingfrom my upbringing how to control my emotions and how to respond and not react to things, were the lessons that I had to learn in Al-Anon.
at a very late age, I'm in my fifties and I feel like.
I've had a lot of really good influences in my life overthe years, but Al-Anon has revolutionized, the way that I interact with the world, in a way that is more, proper.
(20:58):
And I, I didn't know that, through the decades, oflife, going back to the seventies and eighties, that wasn't necessarily something that we talked about.
And we're in a, in an age now, Post COVID,we're all talking about our feelings finally.
And we have now so many sources, to be able to helpourselves if we're just open minded enough to do it.
Spencer (21:18):
Yeah, we still have the Surgeon General of the United States saying there is an epidemic of loneliness, And I say still because we may be, many of us, connecting more deeply with others than we have in the past, but there's also still a lot of isolation
in our society, in our world, , if you're unfortunateenough to have been deeply affected by somebody else's alcoholism, you're then fortunate enough that you can find this program of recovery and of connection,
Bruce (21:50):
yeah, absolutely.
that, that's so important there.
there's help available.
Exactly.
Spencer (21:55):
there is help.
I've heard this rephrasing ofthe first three steps: it's bad.
There is help.
I can ask for it.
Step two is there is help.
It's like you have to believe that there is help availablebefore you can move on to the next step to reach out for it.
Bruce (22:13):
Yeah, truly.
Spencer (22:14):
yeah.
Okay.
I think we're around to you for reading, paragraph four.
Bruce (22:19):
In step two, what has been impossible for us on our own becomes possible because we have placed ourselves in the presence of something that surpasses our individual human capacity.
Just by attending a meeting or opening up to a sponsoror seeking solace in Al-Anon literature, we have reached out for the help of a power greater than ourselves and have tapped into the collective wisdom of our fellowship.
Spencer (22:41):
Weren't we just talking about this?
Bruce (22:42):
I think so.
Spencer (22:44):
I think we were.
Bruce (22:45):
Yeah, this is, this is great.
There's just all the things that I wantto say about each one of these things.
But yeah, something that surpassesour individual human capacity.
and you don't have to have a God, you don't have tohave a faith based, belief system to understand there's things that might be beyond our capacity to fix.
(23:07):
And this is one of them, but I think it's right.
You know, I did find a sponsor, and I am activelyworking the steps, in step four right now.
Those things do help.
And seeking solace in Al-Anon literature.
There's so much out there!
Courage to change, a day for ourselves, one day at a time.
There's just so many things to tap into.
(23:29):
That it really, when you need to lean into somethingand you're not quite there with your higher power yet, just reading one of these, one of these books, it'll tell you what you need to hear.
It'll tell you exactly what you need to hear.
Spencer (23:43):
Yeah.
I find it interesting that this reading about steptwo and, well, step two itself does not say God,
Bruce (23:52):
True.
Spencer (23:53):
that's what these days we call a trigger word for a lot of people.
it says a power greater than ourselves and, easingus into this concept of something that we might eventually learn to call or desire to call God or not.
But it never says that in here.
And that, I think, also was important tome because I'm one of these people that, God was not a word I was comfortable with.
Bruce (24:20):
I totally agree
Spencer (24:21):
Not because I was, What's the word I want here?
Not because I was indoctrinated insome specific religion as a child.
I actually grew up in a religious tradition that encourageseach of us to find our own answers, which is in itself kind of scary, but there was this picture of God that came from our mostly Protestant Christian American society.
(24:51):
The big guy up in the sky who judges you.
and I just wasn't willing to accept that.
I know when I first saw the 12 steps, which wassome years before I came into Al-Anon, I was at a treatment center and they're up there on the wall.
That word in several of the steps probably kept mefrom finding my own recovery for longer than maybe at this point I wish it had, but, is what it is.
(25:15):
Let's see.
Attending a meeting.
All right, so what I heard when I started to wakeup in meetings, when I started to say, oh, these people are, many of them still living with an alcoholic situation, but they're not, Crazy like I am.
Their lives are not as unmanageable as mine.
(25:36):
They have some happiness and someserenity and I would like that.
so I started to wake up and I waslike, okay, how did you get there?
How did you get there?
and what I heard, the way I simplifywhat I heard was go to meetings, read the literature, get a sponsor, work the steps.
Simple but not easy.
(25:57):
So I started into those things.
What it says here in the reading is meeting,sponsor, literature, and it doesn't say steps, because we're in the middle of working the steps, at this point, those are the factors that can Help.
Be at least the initial reaching out for help.
That's what it says right here.
We've reached out for help of a power greaterthan ourselves, tapped into the collective wisdom.
(26:20):
And that collective wisdom is whatI leaned on for quite a while.
Bruce (26:25):
Absolutely.
Spencer (26:26):
oh, you were talking about literature and how much we have.
So behind me, which you can see, but, our listener can't,is my Al-Anon literature from here over To here, there's a little bit of Alateen in there, and there's one non Al-Anon book in the middle that is also a daily reader.
And I don't have all the books, but it's,about 18 inches of books, there's a lot, yes.
(26:48):
Sometimes I'm like, there's so much literature.
Bruce (26:52):
I agree with you, and yes, this step does not involve the God word, but it's like you said, previously that, yeah, it's in the steps and it's in the literature.
It's in the words of each step.
And that also inhibited me at first aswell, until I did some real soul searching.
as I had mentioned, I was raised a Christian fundamentaluntil I was about 18 and then drifted for a while.
(27:16):
I managed to find the martial arts, in my20s and 30s and practiced, a bit of Buddhism and Taoism and meditation, for a while.
And then I drifted again a little bit, maintained that,that sort of almost take what you like and leave the rest.
And I didn't know that concept, outsideof, Al-Anon, but I was doing exactly that.
(27:37):
It was, the martial artist, Bruce Lee, that, he builthis martial arts by taking different aspects of different martial arts to apply to his own, he made it his own.
So he literally practiced takewhat you like and leave the rest.
Going on a little further, I explored atheism as well.
I have a couple of relatives that are atheists andtheir influence kind of sunk in a little bit and I needed to search that out for myself as well.
(28:02):
But, what really triggered me was, I waswatching, and I'm not into horror movies.
I grew up in a haunted house.
So as you can imagine, that's rather triggering, butI started watching horror stories that were based on true stories and went down that rabbit hole for a little while and came across a couple of documentaries of the people that these movies are based on and
(28:25):
hearing their thoughts about the afterlife and, or,Dark energy that appears in this planet, in this realm, it helped me to open the door up, to belief of, there is something beyond us, there is something here that we're not totally aware of, and that helped me a lot.
But then, coming full circle and what really nailed it forme was listening to a comedian by the name of Pete Holmes.
(28:52):
and he's hilarious.
I love the guy.
One of the things he said, and I'm like, why amI learning this from a comedian was God is the blanket term we use to give the great mystery a shape I'm like, Whoa, what just happened there?
wow.
That mean that I don't have to assign God tobe some bearded deity in the sky judging me?
(29:16):
That it's all just part of the great mystery?
And that resonates with me.
That is a great mystery.
Because the power of Al-Anon, the power of being exposedto all the things in Al-Anon, Helps me with that mystery.
It is part of that mystery.
it's, it's a magic to me that I don't possess that I'mexposed to when I step into a room with, with, anywhere from 10 to 15, 20 people, all experiencing the same things.
Spencer (29:42):
Yeah.
Bruce (29:43):
Sorry for the tangent there.
Spencer (29:45):
Yeah.
Good tangent.
Good tangent.
Because one of the things that I hear from listeners is,I don't know how to do the God thing, or I have a lot of trouble with God and that's kept me away from 12 Steps.
So highlighting different people's paths to get here.
Can help us to, to find our own pathwhen we thought we were blocked.
(30:09):
And that's important.
Bruce (30:11):
Yeah, it really is.
Spencer (30:14):
So here we are at the last paragraph.
In time, we come to believe that only a power greaterthan ourselves has the power to restore us to sanity.
To take step two, we don't have to believethat this will happen, only that it could.
Step two is about possibility,and that is why it is about hope.
(30:34):
And again, the wording of the step itself, came tobelieve--- there's an implicit we at the beginning of every step because it's recounting the experience of the people who've come before us in recovery.
So we came to believe that a power greaterthan ourselves could restore us to sanity.
(30:58):
it doesn't even say will restore us tosanity, or would restore us, it says could.
it's about possibility, as it says here.
I think that was part of the wisdom of making twelve steps.
If we look at the history of AA, Bill W.
was a member of the Oxford groups and they had six steps.
Bruce (31:19):
did not know that.
Spencer (31:20):
yeah, which also was a completely Christian organization.
I think some of the languagestill is affected by that origin.
Particularly if you go and read thebig book, which was published in 1939.
they weren't too far away from theirorigins in the Oxford group at that point.
But, I think he said, yeah, us alcoholics, we will findall the wiggle room we can to get out of this thing.
(31:49):
and we need to make the steps smaller and easierto take a bite out, and probably in the Oxford group, you didn't even have to come to believe.
Like you, you came in yeah, I'ma Christian, so I do believe.
Having said that, I have talked to a lot of people whogrew up with Christianity, and maybe they were okay with this notion of a power greater than themselves, but that, that power would or could restore them to sanity.
(32:18):
They had a lot of trouble with thatpart of this very short sentence.
The God that I learned as a child, judgesme and is going to send me to hell.
He's not going to help me.
He's not going to, restore me to sanity.
That's my job.
I've got to do that myself.
So there's all different kinds of ways Differentpeople have had trouble with this step.
(32:41):
But yes, it is about possibility man,it's like, could restore us to sanity.
yeah, I want that.
For me, once I got past this power greater thanmyself part, I'm like, yeah, I want to be sane.
I didn't realize it was insane, but nowyou've convinced me that that's true.
So let's bring me back to health.
Sanity is like healthy mind or healthy spirit or something.
(33:03):
that's what I want.
Bruce (33:05):
Yeah, I agree.
I do like that it doesn't say, it will.
I like that it says, only that it could.
It's not a promise.
It's not telling you.
It's just encouraging you.
And I find that to be encouraging.
that does give me hope.
That it could.
Because, I'm sorry, in the years of now being inAl-Anon, I'm realizing how fickle serenity is.
(33:31):
much less sanity.
and I'm still learning about myself, but serenity isan amazingly fickle element, you know, I, I describe it as, the sun on a cloudy day, you might see it, but you might not, and it's good to know that it could do that.
That, that taking step two or reading thesteps or being an Al-Anon could do that.
(33:53):
yeah.
and that is in the end, the last, Iwas actually going to say it myself.
That's why it's all about hope.
Spencer (34:00):
absolutely.
thank you.
let's talk about music, and then we'll come backto our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our lives today.
You with apparently no problem, pickedthree songs to bring to the podcast.
What's your first one?
Bruce (34:18):
You, you say no problem, which is funny because I struggled.
This is the biggest part that I struggled with.
Being a musician and knowing thatthere's a world of possibility out there.
The first song I picked was Running to Stand Still by U2.
The lines are.
Sweet the sin, bitter the taste in my mouth.
I see seven towers, but I only see one way out.
(34:40):
You gotta cry without weeping, talk withoutspeaking, scream without raising your voice.
She walks through the streets with her eyes paintedred under a black belly of cloud in the rain.
She is raging, she is raging, andthe storm blows up in her eyes.
She will suffer the needle chill,she's running to stand still.
Spencer (34:59):
So this perhaps is capturing the experience before Al-Anon, before finding a power.
this is about the insanity.
Bruce (35:08):
Yeah, and what speaks to me too is you get a cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice.
I find strength in that.
I find, a guidance in those words thathelp respond to things rather than being triggered by them and reacting to things.
Spencer (35:35):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Would you like to start, Bruce?
Bruce (35:44):
Yeah, sure.
I'm in a transitional pivot phase in my life, inthat my qualifier and I are splitting up, which has its own challenges and its own complications.
And we're still under the same roof together.
This is all still very brand new.
but, I'm noticing how life has a wayof coming together at points, right?
(36:04):
You have divergence and convergence.
And I'm very much coming to a pointright now in my life where I feel like Everything is literally falling into place.
I don't have all the answers and Idon't have all of it figured out.
And I'm leaning into the program going, that's okay.
That's okay.
I can take it one day at a time.
(36:25):
I can take it step by step.
I can let go and let things develop around me.
I don't have to make a decision abouteverything that's coming up in my life.
then, of course, today having a first step meeting withthree newcomers in my home group, really also gave me perspective on, Where I came from, and the past that I've had, not only, the struggles that I had for the first eight years of the relationship that is about to end, but also, the last 18 months of my own recovery.
(36:57):
knowing that I was that way when I first steppedinto the room, that I was the one in tears.
I was the one that was havingmy insides on my outside, right?
Being exposed and being vulnerable, but then findingthrough community and fellowship, the comfort that I needed.
Spencer (37:18):
One of my themes, if you've been listening to the podcast at all, you know that one of my recovery themes is acceptance.
That is something that I need to work continuouslybecause in all aspects of my life, things happen.
things come up that are not what I wanted them to be.
(37:39):
I was on vacation for two weeks and I did not doany of my exercise program while I was on vacation.
Totally slacked on that.
Even the stuff that I could have done juston the floor, wherever we were, I didn't do.
And I kind of knew that was going to happen, and Ididn't really make an effort to actually, do some of it.
(38:03):
So I knew I was going to, coming back after two weeks,coming back to the gym, I was going to be out of shape.
I was going to meet with my trainer on Thursday, soI thought, I can go in on Tuesday, see how far back I've slid, how many reps I can't do for each exercise
tuesday, I had an allergy attack.
(38:24):
So I was not able to get into the gym on Tuesdayand Wednesday didn't work either and so I come in on Thursday and I'm coming up to meet with the trainer I said, yeah I totally slacked over vacation, he's
standing there with the sheet where I record myexercises, he says, yeah, I was going to say something about that, so here we are, I guess this is like step 10 when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
(38:47):
get that out of the way, own up toit, and then let's move forward.
and, yeah, I was not able to, to do as many reps or asmuch weight as had been the case, two weeks earlier.
I was reading somewhere that as we age, we also loseour toning or whatever you want to call it more quickly.
(39:08):
yeah, this is true.
as a young person, I probably could haveskipped two weeks and been no problem, but as a 60 something, it's not so true anymore.
Also related to this and health is I've gotsome hip pain and, I actually saw my doctor this week and I said, Hey, I got this hip pain.
And he pokes at it and he says, itcould be the bursa being inflamed.
(39:31):
I think you call that bursitis.
Okay.
One of those old people things.
at least that's the way I feel about it.
or he said it could be IT band syndrome.
So I got a referral to PT.
That's where we're starting.
Start with PT, right?
and I'm just accepting what it is and how it limitsme, when I was starting to do squats with a weight.
(39:54):
Pain.
He's okay, put the weight down.
Let's do this other exercise.
I want you to feel how this particular musclein your glutes is working during this exercise.
Okay.
Now let's do squats with no weight.
And then I could do that.
I'm like, damn, I was like makingprogress and a huge step back.
It is what it is.
(40:15):
And I'm doing what I can, that's like a huge part of thiswhole acceptance thing for me is, okay, here's where I am.
This is what I can do now.
And now let go because I can't do anything more, butI will be able to later and we'll come back to it.
So that was important.
(40:35):
and then there was something else.
One of my meetings, it's a hybrid meeting.
The Zoom portion of the meeting is working through thebook, Reaching for Personal Freedom, which is a workbook for the steps and traditions and concepts of service.
We're in the traditions and we're in tradition 11,which is about attraction rather than promotion.
(41:02):
The two questions that we talked about yesterdayare, in what ways can I be an example of the Al-Anon program to my family and friends?
And how does Tradition 11 reinforce the idea that weare responsible only for our part in any situation?
For me, that first one, when I was early inAl-Anon, I was like, yo, Al-Anon, yay, yay, you know, everybody should do it, right?
(41:26):
tried to push my kids into it, that didn't work.
but Now that they're adults, they occasionallycome back and ask for the benefit of my experience.
I have this situation.
I'm not sure how to deal with it.
What do you think?
And then I get to be an example.
I get to share my experience, strength, and hope.
(41:46):
I get to share my ideas without saying, this is whatyou should do, but say, this might work for you.
you might try this.
In one case, my, my son, who was in the middle ofa situation and called, I don't know what to do.
And I said, you could try this or this and, understandthis about the situation that you're in could be helpful.
(42:08):
And then he called back and said, okay, this happened.
Now what?
it's wow, like my kids see that Iactually have something to share.
And it's not because I pushed it on them for 20 years.
It's because I have lived as an example ofusing these principles in my interpersonal relationships, which is what that situation was totally about, interpersonal relationship.
(42:34):
It was gratifying.
To recognize that, my example of livingthese principles actually is visible.
Even if they don't want to do it themselves,they're still willing to say, and what do you think?
What would you do?
so that was cool.
now we're going to look forward in thepodcast and say, what's coming next.
(42:58):
What's coming next is more steps.
But whatever the topic, we welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation here.
Leave a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback or your questions.
And Bruce, how can people do that?
Bruce (43:13):
you can send a voice memo or email to feedback at therecovery.
show, or if you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope, oryour questions about today's topic of Step 2, or any of our upcoming topics, including more steps.
(43:40):
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you'd like advanced notice for some of our topics sothat you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for a mailing list by sending an email to feedback at therecovery.
show.
Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
Spencer (43:56):
Our website is, as you may have guessed, the recovery dot show.
there are also some other aliases for that.
Where we have all the information aboutthe show, including the notes for each episode, mostly the notes for each episode.
We'll have links to the book, that we read from today.
I did mention at least one other book.
I'll try to remember to put a link to that onein, and we have, music videos for the songs that Bruce chose, you can also find some links there to other recovery podcasts and websites.
Bruce (44:28):
Our second musical selection available on the website.
is Blasphemous Rumors by Depeche Mode.
And Spencer, I have to say that I really, I'd like tosee what your music collection is like because I think you've probably amassed quite the collection of songs over the years, but, I'll get into the reading here.
I like this song.
It's interesting.
(44:49):
the, there's three lines in it that Ithink are, what really stand out to me.
And I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors,but I think that God's got a sick sense of humor.
And when I die, I expect to find him laughing.
I don't know if there's a deity in the sky thatyou're going to expect to meet on the other side of this, but I do find that there is a rather ironic sense of humor in the universe.
Spencer (45:12):
I like the idea that whatever God is or isn't, that he laughs.
Bruce (45:20):
Because all we can do is laugh at ourselves, right?
Spencer (45:23):
I never expected to find so much laughter in our meetings as we often have.
It's not so much, I think, that we're laughing atourselves, but that we're laughing with ourselves.
Bruce (45:35):
yeah, even today I was a little self conscious with new people in the room and the banter and the laughter that, happened between, a couple of shares, I think broke a little bit of the intensity of the meeting,
which was nice, but I also wonder how that resonateswith newcomers, but yeah, I really, I definitely felt that humor aspect today and it was so refreshing.
Spencer (46:04):
We got a bit of listener feedback this week.
Britt writes, Hi Spencer, a couple things.
First, I wrote to you a couple years ago about howmy social anxiety kept me from meetings and that your show is so helpful to me as another option.
You gave me a shout out on a following episodeletting me know that you hoped one day I could walk in the door or attend an online meeting.
(46:25):
Happy to report I have been attending ACA, Adult Childrenof Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Family, meetings for a year.
I have a weekly home in person meeting,and a fellow traveler, aka sponsor.
I am not the same person I was a year ago.
I set boundaries.
I'm a more patient parent.
I saw behind the false self andwas introduced to the real me.
(46:46):
She's amazing.
Thank you for your encouragement.
I'm going to pause here and say,wow, Britt, that is astounding.
The progress that.
you express here, from when you lastwrote, and I'm so glad to hear from you.
Thank you for letting me know about it.
Britt continues, Second, I'm listening to episode 412 withBarb W., and I am connecting so strongly with her story.
(47:13):
If she's listening, I hope she also knows about ACA.
It might be a great addition to her program.
Thank you for all you do, Spencer.
Take care, and be well.
Britt.
Again, Britt, thanks for writing.
Got a voicemail from Sunny
Sunny (47:28):
Hi, Spencer.
My name is Sunny.
I live in Sacramento, California.
I'm 52 years old, a partial single mom, I guess you'dsay, of two young kids, 8 and 11, and grew up in an alcoholic family, very dysfunctional with a mom.
who is an alcoholic from around when I was inthird grade, onward, who I don't have much of a relationship with, and then a very codependent, lovely father, but extremely codependent, and they're still married and still live in the same house.
(48:00):
I, realized on November 4th of this pastyear that I had a lot of problems in my life.
A lot of rage, a lot of just, trouble makingmajor life decisions, and started my own recovery.
I found your show first, and it's helped me quite a bit.
(48:20):
but I've been somewhat watching the parade versusbeing in the parade, if that makes any sense.
And I'm now ready to take my.
Recovery to another level.
I have a few of the books, but my question foryou is, I need to start working the steps of either Al Anon or ACA, and it's somewhat daunting.
(48:41):
I'm going to buy a book.
I have Courage to Change, The Daily Reader, and I've beenreading that, and I have an Al Anon weekly meeting I attend.
on Wednesdays, but I'm ready to set more time asideto working the steps because I have a lot of rage in my house, and I want to try to break this chain.
Could you please let me know on your show or on a voicemailor email if you recommend that I try to go through the steps through ACA and look for books in that area?
(49:13):
Because of my mom being the alcoholic, andgrowing up in an alcoholic family with her, or if I'm okay to do it through Al Anon.
It's a lot of time and energy to figure out whereto start here, and I appreciate, helping since I'm a single mom and work full time and have two young kids.
I'm very grateful that I found you and justtrying to work through all your episodes to help me steer the ship late in life.
(49:39):
Thanks.
Spencer (49:40):
thanks for calling, Sunny . From your voicemail, it sounds like you're attending Al Anon meetings, but maybe not ACA meetings.
In which case, the answer that I would give to yourquestion about whether to go through the steps in ACA is not unless you can get an ACA sponsor or fellow traveler, as I guess it's also called in ACA, to help you with that and to have an ACA meeting in your schedule.
(50:08):
if Al Anon is what you're doing now, then again,finding a sponsor, I think could be very helpful.
Or asking somebody in your meeting if theycould be like a step buddy or something.
you say you want to buy a book, I would suggest, fromthe Al Anon perspective, either Paths to Recovery, which is, a book specifically aimed at working the steps.
(50:32):
or How Al Anon Works, which is a moregeneral book about the Al Anon program.
It includes short descriptions of each step.
But really, having a sponsor or a step buddy if a sponsorfeels too heavyweight, I think could be very helpful.
Carly wrote, hello.
(50:53):
So happy you're still doing the podcast.
I find it so encouraging.
Just listened to Pat Roos, that was episode 414, SurvivingAlex, A Mother's Story of Love, Loss and Addiction.
Carly continues, I have a 46 year old son who has beenin jail since January due to his criminal behavior.
(51:14):
He started using drugs and stoppedhis medication for schizophrenia.
He needs help, not punishment.
He continues to refuse medication in jail.
Without some intervention, the situation seems hopeless.
I am looking forward to reading Surviving Alex.
Thanks, Carly B.
Thanks for writing, Carly.
(51:34):
I feel for you there.
When my son ended up in a psych ward because ofhis behavior, it was, Quite a scary situation.
Luckily for him and for us, hissituation resolved, fairly quickly.
At least he didn't end up in jail.
They sent him to the psych hospitalinstead of jail for his behavior.
(51:56):
That would have been, wow, so much worse.
Got a voicemail from an Anonymous listener.
Anonymous (52:02):
Hey, Spencer.
Thank you so much for your wonderful interviewwith Pat, who wrote the book, Surviving Alex.
Such an important topic, and it was so great to hearher experience strength and hope through this process.
I wonder if there are any, actionable steps forpeople who would really like to contribute to the decriminalization and the destigmatization of, addiction.
(52:37):
I will look at the website andsee what there is available there.
I just wanted to thank you.
It was very powerful and I really appreciated hearing it.
Thanks.
Always.
Spencer (52:48):
Thanks for calling, yeah, I would suggest starting with Pat's website for resources.
It seems like there were quite a few resources there.
And that's it for this week.
Bruce, I want to thank you so much forjoining me today for our conversation about Step 2 and for a little bit of laughter.
Bruce (53:06):
Our last song selection is Barstool Warrior by Dream Theater.
This might be a little bit heavier for somelisteners, but you can listen to that at the recovery.
show slash 415.
The lyrics that I picked were, Was it bad luck?
Was it fate?
Or a past that she couldn't escape?
It's not right.
(53:27):
Something's wrong.
Just where do I belong?
Promises made, crying in vain, all empty, neveraccepting the blame, and not letting go of the shame.
A river of tears as months turn to years, all wasted andsomeone not willing to change, now only a shadow remains.
No one can save you, and there's no one to see.
It has all been written, you will becomeall you think, all you feel, all you dream.
(53:51):
Now I'm cutting the anchor away, and I won't look back,I'm starting a new life today, now I see where I belong.
Spencer (53:58):
that's a journey, that song.
Bruce (54:00):
yeah, it definitely is.
And I'm actually impressed that Iread through that without crying.
Cause that is definitely a trigger song for me,but I feel that is where I'm at today, even in my own life of I'm starting a new life today.
And I think that's anybody walking into an Al-Anon meeting.
That's anybody picking up the Al-Anon literature,talking to their sponsor, engaging in, in fellowship, You're starting a new life today.
(54:24):
and that is where I belong.
Spencer (54:31):
Thank you for listening, and please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
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