September 2, 2024 • 45 mins
How often do business leaders in Canada talk about ''uncertainty''? Too often. Now more than ever, Canadians don't want to hear how unclear the path forward is—they want a course that cuts through the fog.
Anthony Viel, CEO of Deloitte Canada, is joined by Raman Rai, Industry Managing Partner for Deloitte Canada's Financial Services and special guest Martha Hall Findlay, Director and Chair at the University of Calgary's School of Public Policy, to discuss what it takes to build public lasting trust in today's world.
How can we innovate to create more certainty for Canadians? To ensure an optimistic future for all? Tune in to find out.
A French transcript of this episode can be read here: https://deloi.tt/3ZitVJ7
***
À quelle fréquence les chefs d’entreprise du Canada parlent-ils d’« incertitude »? Trop souvent. Aujourd’hui plus que jamais, les Canadiens ne veulent pas savoir à quel point la voie à suivre est incertaine, il veulent connaître la voie qui permet de sortir du brouillard.
Anthony Viel, chef de la direction de Deloitte Canada, est accompagné de Raman Rai, associé directeur du secteur des Services financiers de Deloitte Canada, et d’une invitée spéciale, Martha Hall Findlay, directrice et présidente de la School of Public Policy de l’Université de Calgary, afin de discuter de ce qu’il faut faire pour gagner la confiance du public de manière durable dans le monde d’aujourd’hui.
Comment pouvons-nous innover afin de créer plus de certitude pour les Canadiens et de permettre à tous d’envisager l’avenir avec optimisme? Joignez-vous à nous pour le découvrir.
Vous pouvez lire la transcription française de cet épisode ici : https://deloi.tt/3ZitVJ7
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Full Circle,a show
where we confront Canada'smost pressing challenges
and societal issues alongsidesome of our country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Vale,and I'm a partner
at Deloitte Canada and Chile,and I'm thrilled to have you,
as our listeners,join us in this first episode.
(00:20):
We're going to jump rightinto that societal issue
that is affecting all of usbeing uncertainty.
Our goal is to help and inspire Canadiansfeel more positive
about a future for the next generation.
I, alongside my co-hostRamon Roy, had the pleasure
of sitting down with MarthaHall Finley to chat about public trust.
(00:43):
Laughter is the directorof the School of Public Policy
at the University of Calgary,and the James S
and Barbara Palmer Chair in Public Policy.
Priorto joining the School of Public Policy,
Martha was chief sustainability and chiefclimate officer for Suncor Energy,
and she was presidentand CEO of Canada West Foundation.
(01:03):
She has also served twiceas a member of Parliament.
Martha's expertise in sustainabilitycommunity relations
in publicpolicy makes her perfect person discuss
how institutions and organizationsfunction to shed light on disparities
in Canada, and to inspire positivechange for a better future.
My co-host in this episode was RaymondRoy, who's the industry
(01:26):
managing partner for financial servicesat Deloitte Canada and Chile
and who's doneextensive work driving purposeful growth
and innovationacross that industry and sectors globally.
Please enjoy this episode of Full Circle.
Angus Reid group,
(01:48):
put out a report
that says 53% of Canadians
believe that government,
politicians and policy makers
are the sources of division
in this country.
This finding highlights
the need for institutions,
I believe, to address the lack of trust
and work
towards building a united
and inclusive society.
Martha.
Just an easy one off
the off the bat, you know, do
(02:09):
do we have a public trust issue?
Well, of course.
And and it's not just that one poll,
We've seen a number of polls
over the last few years,
and the challenge that I see too that
it has evolved with some of this
polling is,
is that we can no longer point
to specific areas of lack of trust.
You know,
it used to be big, bad corporate
(02:31):
or it used to be the banks
or it used to be telecom,
or it used to be politicians.
Now it's pretty much everybody.
And
I mean, we're even seeing
drops in in trust in academics
and professionals.
Don't take this the wrong way.
And, you know, we
we all feel that every day you know.
But I feel in my role too.
(02:53):
And so if we don't address it,
I think we have real challenges.
And being able to,
to have good
decisions be made because you,
you know,
you lose the
the whole concept of a social contract
with governments
being able to enact legislation.
that only happens when you really have
(03:14):
that kind of public confidence.
Yes,
in a democracy we can change governments.
But I think we're seeing,
even that being challenged.
And the increase in partisanship
certainly what we're seeing
in the United States,
it is worrisome for sure.
And it's interesting where you
you just went, apologies,
(03:34):
I’m getting on my soapbox here right now.
But this concept of trust relating
to also having that obligation
in a democratic society
to have your voice, to vote, to actually,
give your elected officials a mandate.
I find that troubling,
too, as
somebody who's,
is a recent Canadian,
(03:55):
if you will,
particularly a recent Canadian
who read their obligation on
on having to vote.
And being able to, you know, what
is that a reflection
there of trust
or not coming forward and and voting?
I think it is.
And I think you see it
in, in by-elections,
turnout is very, very low.
(04:16):
And I, you know, in Australia
where one has to vote, I'd be,
you know, interested
in the perspective
of whether that
in fact encourages a greater level
of information,
of seeking information
on the people
if you have to actually check the ballot.
does that encourage people
to have a little bit more knowledge
about where they're
putting that check box?
But municipal politics, I mean, that's
(04:38):
that's the stuff that affects
people every day.
That's garbage, that's water,
that's sewage, that's,
you know,
all the things, you know, street
maintenance, snow plowing.
You know,
those are
things that that affect people every day.
And yet, the turnout
for voting for municipal
elections is very, very low.
(04:59):
And and interestingly enough,
you can't blame partisan
politics on that.
So I worry about the,
the level of partisanship
at federal and provincial politics.
But if that were the only reason
for people
not voting,
municipal politics
for the most part are not partisan,
and yet we still have very low turnout.
(05:22):
I guess the other worrying part for me
is that if you don't trust,
if you see that people are not trusting
their their decision makers,
and I think we need to bring corporate
and others into that, discussion,
where
in whom are people placing their trust?
(05:42):
and the,
and that other side of the equation
is that increasingly it's
influencers, it's people on Facebook,
it's friends, it's family,
which might be lovely,
but they're not necessarily
the ones who have the deepest
knowledge and awareness
and understanding of the issues.
And so we have, on the one
(06:04):
hand, a lack of trust
in the institutions
and the organizations that really
we ought to be trusting more
and an increase in trust
in people and,
and sometimes
organizations that are not necessarily,
should not be as trusted.
So it's a double problem.
And to your point around the influencers,
(06:27):
you normally going to the influencers
that are saying what you want to hear,
not necessarily what you need to hear.
So, I think that they’re coming together to,
you know, to make it really,
really difficult.
And that's
what you touched
on, you know, what
role does institutions
and other organizations
have to come back and,
and try and re-earn
that trust
(06:47):
or reestablish that trust?
But I
well, there's nothing as valuable as,
as actions over words. The challenge is
that it's hard to do good things
and have it actually seen
because people are spending less time
looking at outside of their outside
of their bubbles,
outside of their spheres.
(07:08):
I, you know,
and we will talk about this,
I think, in a,
in a number of contexts today.
But I really feel
that there's a much bigger role
for corporate leadership.
Then I'll focus on Canada for now.
But I think that's true globally as well.
and let's listen, though,
you know, not every corporation has,
you know, everyone's best interests
(07:28):
at heart.
And traditionally, it really was just
you only had your shareholders
interests at heart.
And so you could probably,
you know,
do some pretty awful things
as long as you were,
you know, reaping enough profit
and being able to distribute
that to your shareholders.
But but increasingly over
the last couple of decades,
we've seen a much greater interest.
And in fact, in some place,
in some, in some places, a mandate
(07:51):
to see your stakeholders
as broader than just the shareholders
and just the financial.
And there are some companies that are
that are taking that to heart.
but you and I both know
there are a number of corporate
leaders and again,
Canada just picking Canada for,
for the moment,
who are incredibly passionate
about their communities,
(08:12):
incredibly passionate
about the environment,
and incredibly passionate about
doing the right things for society.
And they tend
to let their associations,
whether it's chambers of commerce,
whether it's for large corporate
in Canada, the Business Council of Canada
do the speaking
(08:33):
and those
those voices may be incredibly good, but
they’re only
is a very small number of people,
whereas we have
a lot of corporate leaders
in Canada
who I think really should
become more engaged.
Often I'll hear
real concerns
raised about exactly
what we're talking about.
(08:53):
Where do we see the trust?
Where do we see the decision making?
that social contract, where do we see,
the ability to make those
sometimes tough decisions
and make sure that people are on board,
with, with those decisions being made?
But,
but then they,
you know, bemoan the state of politics.
(09:14):
And every time
I'm now finding myself,
you know, we need you to be engaged.
You, corporate leader
who's passionate
about your community, passionate
about the environment, passionate
about all these things.
We need you to step up.
We need you
either yourself personally
or your company,
or what
your company is doing
to become more engaged.
(09:37):
There is a caveat to that, though.
If it is seen to be,
if that greater level of engagement
is seem to be checking a box,
or it seems to be oh,
I need to look better.
And it's not honest and it's not
authentic, it could backfire.
so that's a real concern.
(09:57):
I just know that there are an awful
lot of people in this country
who are very authentic
and who
who would be very much authentic
and honest in their engagement.
It's just, what does that look like?
I don't actually know.
It's easy for me to say,
I don't actually know what
that should look like, but,
but I can't help but thinking
that there's an opportunity there
For more corporate
Canada to be at the table
(10:18):
is what I'm taking away
from that Martha.
And maybe not even at “the table”,
but in public.
Yup.
Just to make the distinction,
because we we talk about, well,
these are the decisions
being made at the board table.
These are the
yes.
I do think that there
are opportunities for corporate leaders
and corporate Canada
in the sense
(10:39):
of the variety of institutions
to be more engaged and not, frankly,
throwing hands up and say,
oh, God, politics. Right.
For sure,
it's,
can I scratch on something
you've mentioned two or three times here Martha,
and then I want to getting into,
you know,
something else that you said,
(10:59):
but Social Contract,
I want to just for our listeners,
just give a bit of an overview.
What what it means to you
when we talk about social contract?
Well, there are lots of philosophers
who've done this a lot more.
articulately
and more succinctly than I can.
That's all right.
You're amongst friends here, Martha.
(11:19):
Just,
Our Canadian democracy,
there's an understanding
that once
we collectively have voted
for the politicians who end up in office,
that even though they may make decisions
that aren't perfect for
for us or perfect
for that or perfect for that,
the contract we've entered into
is that they have the
right and the responsibility
(11:42):
to,
enact legislation to put in regulatory,
restrictions, etc.
if that social contract is lost,
then the whole system falls down.
And I think that relates back
to the point that I made there earlier,
(12:02):
that if
if there's any
one of the better with 30 or 40% of folk,
participating in voting,
it's going to be very hard.
You know,
60% are opting out,
perhaps, of that social contract.
and doing that. One thing else you said,
and, Raman, I'm
sure you have a perspective
(12:22):
on this as well.
Being engaged and having a voice.
As corporate leaders
is important, for sure.
But you
you mentioned about the many passionate,
authentic leaders that are,
doing more than just saying
they're actually getting out there
and actually making it happen.
And whether it's commitments to
(12:44):
climate, other
stakeholders, reconciliation
or otherwise,
I think I think there's a there's
it's almost like one part,
say two parts do would be the way
I sort of look at it,
but I don't know if you
have a perspective on that.
For a recipe,
I think that sounds good.
what I would suggest
(13:05):
is that we have an awful lot of people
in this country who are still,
even if they're saying
they're still not either
saying publicly enough and
or they're not doing
and that that's my the dilemma.
I don't know what it looks like.
We have we have business associations.
We have places
(13:26):
where where corporate leaders
can gather
and talk about the main issues,
issues of the day.
But I find,
an increasing number of
of the ones that I engage with,
feel
increasingly concerned,
but also feel,
(13:46):
a bit powerless and,
one I think if anything, that's
probably a good thing
because it's encouraging people
to find answers.
but it's not a good thing.
You don't want people to feel powerless
in the face of
of challenges
to our, you know,
economic and social prosperity.
But we need something to,
to start galvanizing people.
And maybe it's
(14:07):
maybe it's
figuring out what that looks like
in a way that can help
companies do things.
I'll use an example, a recent example
that I thought of corporate,
Canada stepping up,
which I thought was really interesting.
And this was the,
the Creative Destruction Labs
out of U of T,
which has now gotten quite a lot
(14:27):
bigger, globally.
it was done under their auspices,
but really it was,
And I'm going to simplify this, but,
give 12, 15
Canadian companies, give or take,
Covid hits.
But these companies all had,
were all providing
(14:48):
essential services
of one kind or another.
And so, you know,
you hear a whole all the, the challenges
of going back to the office.
Well,
an awful lot of people in this country
and around the world
didn't have the
the ability to not work on site.
Suncor was a part of the consortium.
So they set up a
what they called
the Rapid Testing Consortium,
because these companies
all needed to have people come on site.
(15:11):
They all needed to protect those people
as, as best as possible.
But the rapid testing
knowledge was was scattered.
And so fundamentally,
all these different companies,
Air Canada was involved,
Suncor was involved, Loblaws or,
you know, Loblaws and Shoppers
Drug Mart were involved.
a number of of big Canadian companies,
all in different sectors.
(15:32):
The one thing that brought them together
was we need to figure out rapid
testing really fast.
And so simplifying it, it was you
try this one, you try this one,
you try this one,
you try this one, you try this one.
And then let's compare notes
so that they could come up with
effective rapid testing
as, as quickly as possible.
(15:54):
And I thought I I've been I just
I think that's a really,
really interesting example.
This was not their
traditional business associations.
This was a gathering of people
with a common challenge.
And it was pretty cool.
I just thought that was a it
(16:15):
just a great example of corporate Canada
getting together and collaborating,
where these organizations
wouldn't
necessarily
have had a whole lot of other stuff
in common.
That's an excellent example of
I had a front row
seat to that one myself, and it was just
but like you sort of said,
sort of elevating above what is the
(16:36):
what is the system
level issue
country, community level,
country level issue and,
and bringing on this particular case,
bringing experimentation to bear,
to find
to find the,
the outcome for the greater good.
As a community member,
I think
when you can see that
something needs to be done,
just go and do it
rather than pointing at somebody else and
(16:58):
sort of saying,
you know, I'm waiting for
somebody else
to actually do
what I should otherwise do.
So let’s go to of the challenge of equality,
because I think equality
is going to relationship
with trust as well.
And,
you know,
we did our own survey
that we called
at the Common Ground Survey.
93% of Canadians
strongly believe
in the importance of equality
and fostering a more civil society,
(17:21):
which emphasizes
you know, the significance
of addressing the power dynamics
and the impact
on marginalized communities
and the role
that individuals
in positions of privilege
play in promoting equity.
we we said off air
about where all relatively new Canadians,
just a few generations apart,
and this country's built by newcomers
(17:43):
with the belief
that they could thrive
in a safe environment through hard work.
is this the case today
or what has changed in your mind?
in that regard?
Well, I think that
we benefit we benefit here.
And to your point,
you've had the benefit of living
in in Australia.
And Australia
is a very successful country as well.
(18:06):
from having,
a system of government that,
understands its role in making sure
that there is public health,
that there is public education,
that there is a system
of redistributing wealth
that ensures equality of opportunity.
And I and I and I
stress equality of opportunity
(18:28):
because there's no such thing
as full equality.
But people will not achieve
those opportunities.
If they don't have, at least
they will not achieve their own success
fully
if they do not have,
equality of opportunity.
And I think that's key.
It's, it's
what built this country is, is. Yeah.
From what I can see,
you've got to have that
belief that you're going to.
(18:49):
Well if you
don't then it's, it's
pretty easy to, to give up.
but you know,
you also need to recognize
individual rights.
I think those are really important.
But I worry that
over the decades of that success
and now I'm speaking as a Canadian
because that's my experience.
I worry that that that very success
(19:13):
has almost allowed our society
to become complacent.
There we go.
There's another there's another podcast.
I think I do worry that,
an awful lot of Canadians
have become pretty complacent
about how our economy actually works.
and that in a functioning society,
and this is a bit cliche,
(19:33):
but with rights and rights
to education,
rights to health, rights to those
equal opportunities, if you will,
rights to the benefit
of some of that wealth, redistribution.
But with those rights
come responsibilities
and not just responsibilities.
And, you know,
(19:53):
that's a whole other podcast.
But how does how does that manifest?
Like what,
you know,
how do people actually take
on those responsibilities?
but also just a
recognition that and this is, again,
equality of opportunity
does not mean that
everything will ultimately be perfect
for everyone
because not
everybody has the same skill sets.
Not everybody has the same talent,
(20:15):
not everybody has the same drive.
Right.
And so, it is it is something
I think we've lost a little bit that,
with rights come responsibilities
and not everything's going to be perfect.
And it's up to each one of us
to work at
(20:35):
what we need for ourselves
and our families,
but also for our communities.
Do you still see it slightly
different elsewhere,
Martha, in the world,
when you compare and contrast
other countries to Canada?
I'm not sure that I can
because this is my lived experience.
(20:57):
You know, I lived
I lived for a year, in Europe,
in the Czech
Republic was really interesting,
by the way.
And, you know, not long after the
the Iron Curtain had fallen,
I guess for, for listeners,
you have to be of a certain age
to even know what the Iron Curtain means.
I got it, I got it
(21:17):
But that was
also a very interesting time
for the Czech people.
And so I can't even compare that,
even though I lived there and,
and really appreciated it.
I mean, we, we also,
I guess you could
maybe compare a little bit
to other countries with similar histories
and similar backgrounds.
I think,
frankly, Australia is a great competitor,
(21:40):
a great country
for Canada to compare itself to.
but that's a pretty relatively small
part of the world as a whole, for sure.
I was I was driving in this morning.
I apologize,
this would be the last thing that I,
that I quote, but,
is a quote that I listen
to a lot of audiobooks and the quote to
(22:00):
come out, “When a man is doing
well for himself,
but his country's falling to pieces,
he goes to pieces along with it.
But a struggling individual
has much better hopes
if his country is thriving”.
Oh, gosh, I love that.
Oh, isn't that this?
And this is where.
That's a great quote.
Pericles 431 BC.
(22:24):
my point
my point is he was saying it back then.
yeah.
And it's so true today.
And it ties to what you sort of said if,
the community is not thriving,
I don't know, some Canadians have done
some terrific work on this as well.
Oh, the country's not thriving then.
You know, the individual,
(22:45):
is going to struggle, as a result.
So and
then you talk about,
you know,
some, some social safety nets
and the like and common
rights and expectations
that you have
as a citizen of a great country
like Canada.
here,
you know,
the only way that that works
is if you continue to grow,
if you continue to have a,
(23:07):
thriving economy, and,
and I just wanted to throw that in
because I just,
I don't know, serendipitous that it
I just at many hours
that I listened to that
I heard that one this morning.
Well, That's brilliant.
And we'll forgive, Pericles
for referring to men and not men.
And and, there was a moment. Right.
(23:28):
We'll give them a pass.
But the the concept
is incredibly important
for what we've just been talking about.
The importance of corporate leaders
in Canada
to step up their
these are all very successful
people, right?
They are
the leaders
in their corporate organizations.
that quote is fantastic.
I am going to use it in my
(23:50):
in my ongoing conversations
of how to get corporate
leadership more engaged
in, in the future of this country.
We talked a little bit about
is Canada
get all Canadians becoming complacent.
and, you know,
if you do have that
diversity of perspective
and an opinion from, you know Raman,
you've worked around the world as well.
(24:12):
And
and we've mentioned,
you know,
my, my, my,
home country being Australia,
you get a perspective to sort of say,
hey, I arrived here on the shores
and I said,
this is the greatest country in the world.
The world has got so much opportunity
because we sort of see -
And I'm coming from Australia.
If you're not coming from Australia,
you're coming from a,
(24:32):
a different
location, just the opportunities
that are there to
to snap ourselves
out of that complacency,
if you will, with that diverse
perspective to sort of,
you know,
get us to stand up and move forward
and actually do something great wealth.
But, be interested, Raman,
if you have any thoughts on that,
(24:53):
it ties a little bit
to the previous question
on newcomers as well.
Like,
I don't believe in my heart of hearts
that people come to Canada,
you definitely didn't.
My parents
definitely didn't
come with the view
of being complacent, right?
I think people come
with a sense of optimism.
They come with a sense of real pride
of coming to Canada,
gratitude too, gratitude.
And yet here we are talking about
(25:14):
the fact that over generations
it feels like we become complacent.
So the big question for me,
and I love your perspective, Martha, on
that is why?
Like, what is it
that happens
between the time
that people choose to come
and they say, yes, we're going to come.
We're going to make something special
happen from a livelihood perspective
for their personal selves,
but also for their families
(25:34):
and maybe even
sending connections back home.
But they come with a real,
you know, fire in the belly, so to speak.
Yes.
And and the
the bit that's been noodling on my mind.
And I had the privilege
of living in the UK for ten years
and coming back to Canada
is we have such a privileged position
of being such a globally diverse,
(25:55):
like microcosm.
We are the world, yes.
And it's an untapped resource
that what's holding us back from
just being world class
across a number of different dimensions,
including today
on certainty and public confidence.
Well, your your comment
about the diversity of backgrounds
of, of people living in Canadian
in Canada is so true.
(26:16):
I mean, that
that diversity and it is often diverse
diversity of opinion
because of backgrounds,
because of, you know,
how long somebody been here,
what they had to leave,
why they had to leave,
their home countries.
And I think an awful lot of the attitude
in coming to a new country is the stuff
(26:37):
you had to leave
behind in order
to make a better opportunity
for your family, right?
That so that's that's
that affects a lot of people's views.
I do think what happens over
generations is that,
and the
and you don't want people
to have to fight for things.
It's lovely that we have a society
(26:58):
where people,
you know, we do have a social safety net.
We do have those protections.
But,
you know, the people who left
awful situations,
who talk about
how they came to Canada in their 20s
or 30s, were a little bit older,
but had their kids grew up here
(27:19):
and they might be doctors,
they might have been
trained as engineers,
they might have been trained in all sorts
or business success.
But because of, you know,
frankly, some of our regulatory barriers.
But but, you know, they're they're here
and telling me about their four kids,
all of whom have got
(27:39):
have graduate degrees
and how they put these kids
through school
and they have these opportunities,
each generation
after that has had to fight less.
That's a generalization.
But but my point, I think, is that,
unless we unless we find ways
to to
remind people
and reinforce
(28:00):
the fact that this is not for free
like this opportunity
we have in Canada
didn't just happen on its own
and doesn't continue
to happen on its own,
that we all have rights,
but we also all have responsibilities.
This is a really important thing,
and I and I do,
I what I find striking
is that to your point,
(28:21):
people who are new and have left places
or situations that are not
so, supportive,
get they get it. They get the fact that this is not
this is just not a freebie.
This is not a,
we can't make
the assumption that this is
(28:42):
this just happens.
I think it,
I'm going to make a segue here
that that encouragement
that you got to keep going,
that you've got to keep putting
in, you've got to keep sacrificing,
if you will. You have to keep building.
it sort of relates to the is it a myth
or is it not a myth
(29:03):
and how Canadian organizations
get to a certain size and then they
they stop growing,
if you will, or they, you know,
they, they exit that, that that company.
We're talking a little bit there
before about,
you know,
wanting Canadian organizations
stay here
for longer and big,
build bigger organizations
such that we keep
Canadian talent and we keep,
(29:24):
you know,
Canadian pride
in our communities to
to thrive and prosper. But,
there's there's a little bit
of that in there as well.
We've got to keep the hunger up,
if you will.
And that
because that
that's really
I think the secret secret sauce,
for Canada or has been in the past,
certainly as a contrast, people use the,
(29:44):
the United States as a,
as a, an example of,
a society where there's a lot more drive,
there's a lot more, risk taking.
maybe it is partly that
generational thing.
Maybe it's
that there's a
and there's a bit devil's advocate here
(30:06):
because we have such a good country
and we have a good society,
and we do have these opportunities.
but also that comfort of,
you know,
the public health system
and public education
and all of those things that,
and you don't want
people to be hungry, to your point, like,
(30:28):
you know, where's the hunger?
But on the other hand,
there are lots of people who say,
gosh, it's pretty great not being hungry.
It's pretty great.
You know,
I can run a successful business.
I can build it to a certain point.
But gee,
I want to spend more time
with my kids
and and so I'll, I'll
for some big American company
and we're very critical.
We can be very critical of that.
(30:48):
How come you're not growing
your company bigger?
How come you're not,
you know, driving harder?
as a society,
from an overall economic perspective,
we would love those people
to be building more,
to be to be driving more.
but I do. I
maybe it
isn't always worthy of criticism.
(31:09):
Maybe there's an element of
people understanding
that there is more to life
than than just making money.
I would, I would say part of the
the challenge that we see is not so much
I mean, there is that there is a
there's a clear
challenge of Canadian companies
getting to a certain size,
not going public,
(31:29):
but rather selling out to
and on often to Americans, partly
because the America,
you know, the US
markets are so much bigger in
the US, investors are so much bigger.
So, you know, there's a bit of that,
the elephant and the mouse.
But, but we do,
I think have a problem in Canada.
And again, this is if we see a problem,
what are the solutions.
What, what
what are the things that we can
come up the up with there
(31:50):
that would constructively help.
And we do have a challenge in Canada of
small companies
having the
wherewithal to get
to become medium sized companies.
And those there are some things
or companies not going public,
but just focusing on private on
private equity.
(32:11):
There are things that we can do to change
that.
There are certain regulations
that we can change.
you know,
we have regulations
that basically encourage
small businesses to stay small,
through our capital gain
systems, through our,
you know, various incentives.
We have a regulatory system
that makes it
brutally difficult
(32:32):
to go public and stay public.
so
it's there are some things
that we could actually make concrete
changes to.
There are other things like
why is our society attitudinally,
not driving hard enough?
That's a much harder nut to crack.
It's,
I often reflect on that public, private,
(32:54):
the importance of a thriving community
and pillar organizations in a community
to make it thriving.
and, you know, I know these
theories of people like Zita Cobb
would sort of say,
you know, a thriving
country is
is a build up, a thriving communities,
as well.
(33:15):
So, and,
and you mentioned that we do small,
small, medium, very,
very good in this country.
they're very,
very successful enterprises.
and, and then I also think about
this demographic shift,
which is something that I had studied
(33:35):
earlier in my career.
But,
you know,
the thing that we knew
was going to happen is now happening.
And that impacts small businesses
too, the transfer,
if you will, to the next generation.
Or as is often the case,
not, so even those thriving pillars
of Canadian communities
that have been there for decades
(33:57):
and now not seeing a path
to stay there because, you know,
there's got to be some sort of,
exit event, if you will.
to facilitate that.
And if
you look at those numbers
of organizations
and where they're located,
there are thousands of organizations
that are going through that,
and this is the business owners
(34:18):
that are between,
you know, 55
and 65 years of age with no obvious
a succession plan in place and,
and the like.
So to to your point,
we've got to get this right.
because we've got to get that risk taker.
That's what did you call it? Raman?
Fire in the belly.
(34:39):
risk taker with fire in the belly.
with the adequate support and incentives
to take on these
these foundational pillars
and each of the communities to succeed.
Well, and and removing the disincentives,
because there are some
I mean, we do have regulatory
(34:59):
we have regulation is really important.
Don't get me wrong.
you need it,
but we have it's a balance, isn't it?
But when when it takes
you 258 days
different to build a warehouse
200km apart
across the border
with the US and Canada,
250 days is a lot of missed opportunity,
(35:20):
so.
So I do have one last question.
And actually, it's for both of you, A.V.
and yourself, Martha.
And that question is
we've covered a range of topics today,
kind of talking a little bit
around inclusion.
And we started the conversation
on uncertainty, public confidence.
And yet we did circle back
a couple of times of the same thing
(35:40):
that ultimately it's our responsibility.
So both as individuals have.
A.V. and Martha,
what do you feel
is important in the roles
that you play both personally
in your personal lives
and your professional lives?
What needs to be true
for Canadians to thrive,
and we both maintain and
increase social optimism?
(36:01):
I think.
What what what we do as as leaders
and so many people
are leaders in their own spheres.
what we do, as opposed to what we say
is so critically important.
and how we do
it is also critically important.
(36:23):
And, you know, I, I do worry
that, governments are becoming
increasingly political
and are less concerned
about making decisions
for the right reasons.
but are making decisions more
because of political reasons and
that means that people
(36:45):
who have knowledge, who have expertise,
who can contribute to the decision
making that is needed,
is
they just need to become more engaged.
There's lots of things,
but I, I am quite focused now
on, interestingly enough,
because I'm in academia now,
(37:06):
I'm with the University of Calgary.
But from a public policy perspective,
trying to figure out how to get corporate
leaders more involved,
there's a tremendous amount of talent,
a tremendous amount of
experience, knowledge,
but not enough engagement.
And, and I will add a little twist
to that.
That doesn't mean
getting together and complaining,
(37:27):
and it doesn't mean
going to lobby governments.
and I,
you know, we have certain
current politicians
who are very critical of lobbying.
I'm critical more because,
the world has changed with the way people
get their information.
So right to our very beginning,
who are people trusting?
Who are people listening to?
(37:48):
Well, if you're a politician
and you want people to vote for you,
you need to understand
where they're getting their information.
And if they're getting
their information from Facebook,
are they getting their information
from from influencers
and not as traditionally
a broader set of inputs.
Then there's a problem.
Back to my point about
(38:10):
if it's not authentic
and if it's not honest,
it's not going to work.
See right through it. Okay.
AV?
Yeah, I was just going to get on,
where I started.
To vote.
I think that's going to be key, voting.
I think
at the role that we play as leaders,
(38:31):
in, in making sure
that all the information is there
and understandable so Canadians can vote
on the outcomes of the vote.
Buy into that.
What you sort of said,
that social contract, if you will.
would be the first part of the answer.
And my response to the question,
I think this the, the, the thing that,
(38:54):
we as leaders in corporate Canada
or all organizations
need to buy into this premise
that if those around us do well,
all of us do well,
if it's only you that are doing well,
and that's a big
that's going to involve a leap of faith.
Some people will call it courage
(39:14):
to be able to do that.
Some people will say, do the right thing.
I've heard it up here.
Pay it forward.
I think
I think we've got to buy into that.
And,
and we've got to stop talking about that,
and we got to lead from that.
And you touched on
something earlier, Martha
or and that which was, and, and Raman,
(39:35):
and we were talking
about it as well is the,
that recognition
that is not just about making money
for our shareholders.
It's a recognition
that you can make all the money you want.
But if society falls apart,
you know, that's not a good outcome.
So how are you going to do it
(39:56):
the right way, if you will?
and how you do it
with authenticity and credibility,
I think is going to be key.
So, you know, doing that as corporate,
getting those communities thriving,
having people
believe in the opportunity that,
that I have a shot.
I think you sort of said
an equal opportunity.
(40:16):
I have a shot at hard work.
I can succeed.
to me, that's not a new formula.
That's how this country
was built in the first place.
So, Yeah, that'll be my response.
Raman.
And and if I can just add,
and this is
an add a dose of of positivity into this.
And in my experience, people rally
(40:39):
when they see others trying hard.
if if you see somebody else,
especially somebody in a position of,
of, of leadership, influence,
you see that person trying hard
with passion and honesty and integrity
not only for themselves,
but if you see those people working hard
for their communities,
right in the public interest,
(41:01):
whether that be their local community,
whether that be their province,
whether that be Canada,
whether that be globally,
that's pretty inspiring.
and encouraging to others.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
given that we talked
about the pandemic earlier and,
I know we're pushing against time here,
but we had situations
(41:21):
where we’re helping
frontline workers with their groceries.
I mean, that's community coming together.
Right.
And you mentioned
that other example around
rapid testing and the like.
So that we could all, you know,
we could all eat,
safely if you will get our groceries
and things get delivered, medications
(41:42):
and the like.
So I couldn't agree with you more.
It is contagious.
or I call it inspiration,
if you want to call it that as well.
You come together
and people will do
extraordinary things for each other.
But I think that comes back
to where we started.
That core ingredient is trust.
and, and having that understanding.
(42:03):
Yeah.
I would like to talk to you
and go into episode
two and three and four.
but I think that we've come
to the end of time.
Martha, Thank you.
Raman, thank you
for today,
it's all the time that we have,
and,
I would just
call out,
look out for our next episode as well.
(42:25):
Thank you.
Thanks, Martha.
Thanks so much.
So, listeners, today,
hopefullyyou found that podcast interesting.
it certainly was for myself and Ramon.
what particularly resonatedwas the social contract,
that contract that you engagewith as being part of a society
(42:47):
and how it's only effectivewhen we have confidence,
in our governments and in the systems
around our communities.
and our responsibility
to, you know, participate, in,
with our voice, with our votenotwithstanding, we also talked
(43:08):
a little bit more about how corporateleaders can play a role here in being,
the need for corporate lateststep forward and be engaged,
and being part of the solutionto build public trust,
trust in the institutions that are pillarsof our communities and society at large.
The role of leaders to help,
(43:29):
citizens, our employees,
vote responsibly to effect the change
that they want as individual citizens,
to make sure they are informed fullyso that they can make the best decision.
Some of the learnings that come out of,that conversation with Martha is,
you know, diversifying your news sourcesand making sure that you're getting
(43:52):
credible information,and calibrating credible information,
and using your voiceto make the changes that you say
will make a healthier country todayand tomorrow.
The second takeaway is something that I'msure a lot of you listeners understand
is this this conceptthat if when others do good, you do good.
(44:15):
and, this concept of paying it forward,contributing
to the collective for the benefit
of the collective and yourself,ultimately, at the end of the day.
So, listeners,
encourage you to hopefully you've,
got your own takeawaysfrom this conversation.
(44:36):
thank you for joining us.
And, look forward to,
talking to you againon the next episode of Full Circle.
Cheers.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony View and original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
Rate and review this series on ApplePodcasts, and if you haven't already,
don't forget to subscribe to Full Circleon your favorite podcast platform.
Welcome to this episode of Full Circle,a show
where we confront Canada'smost pressing challenges
and societal issues alongsidesome of our country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Vale,and I'm a partner
at Deloitte Canada and Chile,and I'm thrilled to have you,
as our listeners,join us in this first episode.
(00:20):
We're going to jump rightinto that societal issue
that is affecting all of usbeing uncertainty.
Our goal is to help and inspire Canadiansfeel more positive
about a future for the next generation.
I, alongside my co-hostRamon Roy, had the pleasure
of sitting down with MarthaHall Finley to chat about public trust.
(00:43):
Laughter is the directorof the School of Public Policy
at the University of Calgary,and the James S
and Barbara Palmer Chair in Public Policy.
Priorto joining the School of Public Policy,
Martha was chief sustainability and chiefclimate officer for Suncor Energy,
and she was presidentand CEO of Canada West Foundation.
(01:03):
She has also served twiceas a member of Parliament.
Martha's expertise in sustainabilitycommunity relations
in publicpolicy makes her perfect person discuss
how institutions and organizationsfunction to shed light on disparities
in Canada, and to inspire positivechange for a better future.
My co-host in this episode was RaymondRoy, who's the industry
(01:26):
managing partner for financial servicesat Deloitte Canada and Chile
and who's doneextensive work driving purposeful growth
and innovationacross that industry and sectors globally.
Please enjoy this episode of Full Circle.
Angus Reid group,
(01:48):
put out a report
that says 53% of Canadians
believe that government,
politicians and policy makers
are the sources of division
in this country.
This finding highlights
the need for institutions,
I believe, to address the lack of trust
and work
towards building a united
and inclusive society.
Martha.
Just an easy one off
the off the bat, you know, do
(02:09):
do we have a public trust issue?
Well, of course.
And and it's not just that one poll,
We've seen a number of polls
over the last few years,
and the challenge that I see too that
it has evolved with some of this
polling is,
is that we can no longer point
to specific areas of lack of trust.
You know,
it used to be big, bad corporate
(02:31):
or it used to be the banks
or it used to be telecom,
or it used to be politicians.
Now it's pretty much everybody.
And
I mean, we're even seeing
drops in in trust in academics
and professionals.
Don't take this the wrong way.
And, you know, we
we all feel that every day you know.
But I feel in my role too.
(02:53):
And so if we don't address it,
I think we have real challenges.
And being able to,
to have good
decisions be made because you,
you know,
you lose the
the whole concept of a social contract
with governments
being able to enact legislation.
that only happens when you really have
(03:14):
that kind of public confidence.
Yes,
in a democracy we can change governments.
But I think we're seeing,
even that being challenged.
And the increase in partisanship
certainly what we're seeing
in the United States,
it is worrisome for sure.
And it's interesting where you
you just went, apologies,
(03:34):
I’m getting on my soapbox here right now.
But this concept of trust relating
to also having that obligation
in a democratic society
to have your voice, to vote, to actually,
give your elected officials a mandate.
I find that troubling,
too, as
somebody who's,
is a recent Canadian,
(03:55):
if you will,
particularly a recent Canadian
who read their obligation on
on having to vote.
And being able to, you know, what
is that a reflection
there of trust
or not coming forward and and voting?
I think it is.
And I think you see it
in, in by-elections,
turnout is very, very low.
(04:16):
And I, you know, in Australia
where one has to vote, I'd be,
you know, interested
in the perspective
of whether that
in fact encourages a greater level
of information,
of seeking information
on the people
if you have to actually check the ballot.
does that encourage people
to have a little bit more knowledge
about where they're
putting that check box?
But municipal politics, I mean, that's
(04:38):
that's the stuff that affects
people every day.
That's garbage, that's water,
that's sewage, that's,
you know,
all the things, you know, street
maintenance, snow plowing.
You know,
those are
things that that affect people every day.
And yet, the turnout
for voting for municipal
elections is very, very low.
(04:59):
And and interestingly enough,
you can't blame partisan
politics on that.
So I worry about the,
the level of partisanship
at federal and provincial politics.
But if that were the only reason
for people
not voting,
municipal politics
for the most part are not partisan,
and yet we still have very low turnout.
(05:22):
I guess the other worrying part for me
is that if you don't trust,
if you see that people are not trusting
their their decision makers,
and I think we need to bring corporate
and others into that, discussion,
where
in whom are people placing their trust?
(05:42):
and the,
and that other side of the equation
is that increasingly it's
influencers, it's people on Facebook,
it's friends, it's family,
which might be lovely,
but they're not necessarily
the ones who have the deepest
knowledge and awareness
and understanding of the issues.
And so we have, on the one
(06:04):
hand, a lack of trust
in the institutions
and the organizations that really
we ought to be trusting more
and an increase in trust
in people and,
and sometimes
organizations that are not necessarily,
should not be as trusted.
So it's a double problem.
And to your point around the influencers,
(06:27):
you normally going to the influencers
that are saying what you want to hear,
not necessarily what you need to hear.
So, I think that they’re coming together to,
you know, to make it really,
really difficult.
And that's
what you touched
on, you know, what
role does institutions
and other organizations
have to come back and,
and try and re-earn
that trust
(06:47):
or reestablish that trust?
But I
well, there's nothing as valuable as,
as actions over words. The challenge is
that it's hard to do good things
and have it actually seen
because people are spending less time
looking at outside of their outside
of their bubbles,
outside of their spheres.
(07:08):
I, you know,
and we will talk about this,
I think, in a,
in a number of contexts today.
But I really feel
that there's a much bigger role
for corporate leadership.
Then I'll focus on Canada for now.
But I think that's true globally as well.
and let's listen, though,
you know, not every corporation has,
you know, everyone's best interests
(07:28):
at heart.
And traditionally, it really was just
you only had your shareholders
interests at heart.
And so you could probably,
you know,
do some pretty awful things
as long as you were,
you know, reaping enough profit
and being able to distribute
that to your shareholders.
But but increasingly over
the last couple of decades,
we've seen a much greater interest.
And in fact, in some place,
in some, in some places, a mandate
(07:51):
to see your stakeholders
as broader than just the shareholders
and just the financial.
And there are some companies that are
that are taking that to heart.
but you and I both know
there are a number of corporate
leaders and again,
Canada just picking Canada for,
for the moment,
who are incredibly passionate
about their communities,
(08:12):
incredibly passionate
about the environment,
and incredibly passionate about
doing the right things for society.
And they tend
to let their associations,
whether it's chambers of commerce,
whether it's for large corporate
in Canada, the Business Council of Canada
do the speaking
(08:33):
and those
those voices may be incredibly good, but
they’re only
is a very small number of people,
whereas we have
a lot of corporate leaders
in Canada
who I think really should
become more engaged.
Often I'll hear
real concerns
raised about exactly
what we're talking about.
(08:53):
Where do we see the trust?
Where do we see the decision making?
that social contract, where do we see,
the ability to make those
sometimes tough decisions
and make sure that people are on board,
with, with those decisions being made?
But,
but then they,
you know, bemoan the state of politics.
(09:14):
And every time
I'm now finding myself,
you know, we need you to be engaged.
You, corporate leader
who's passionate
about your community, passionate
about the environment, passionate
about all these things.
We need you to step up.
We need you
either yourself personally
or your company,
or what
your company is doing
to become more engaged.
(09:37):
There is a caveat to that, though.
If it is seen to be,
if that greater level of engagement
is seem to be checking a box,
or it seems to be oh,
I need to look better.
And it's not honest and it's not
authentic, it could backfire.
so that's a real concern.
(09:57):
I just know that there are an awful
lot of people in this country
who are very authentic
and who
who would be very much authentic
and honest in their engagement.
It's just, what does that look like?
I don't actually know.
It's easy for me to say,
I don't actually know what
that should look like, but,
but I can't help but thinking
that there's an opportunity there
For more corporate
Canada to be at the table
(10:18):
is what I'm taking away
from that Martha.
And maybe not even at “the table”,
but in public.
Yup.
Just to make the distinction,
because we we talk about, well,
these are the decisions
being made at the board table.
These are the
yes.
I do think that there
are opportunities for corporate leaders
and corporate Canada
in the sense
(10:39):
of the variety of institutions
to be more engaged and not, frankly,
throwing hands up and say,
oh, God, politics. Right.
For sure,
it's,
can I scratch on something
you've mentioned two or three times here Martha,
and then I want to getting into,
you know,
something else that you said,
(10:59):
but Social Contract,
I want to just for our listeners,
just give a bit of an overview.
What what it means to you
when we talk about social contract?
Well, there are lots of philosophers
who've done this a lot more.
articulately
and more succinctly than I can.
That's all right.
You're amongst friends here, Martha.
(11:19):
Just,
Our Canadian democracy,
there's an understanding
that once
we collectively have voted
for the politicians who end up in office,
that even though they may make decisions
that aren't perfect for
for us or perfect
for that or perfect for that,
the contract we've entered into
is that they have the
right and the responsibility
(11:42):
to,
enact legislation to put in regulatory,
restrictions, etc.
if that social contract is lost,
then the whole system falls down.
And I think that relates back
to the point that I made there earlier,
(12:02):
that if
if there's any
one of the better with 30 or 40% of folk,
participating in voting,
it's going to be very hard.
You know,
60% are opting out,
perhaps, of that social contract.
and doing that. One thing else you said,
and, Raman, I'm
sure you have a perspective
(12:22):
on this as well.
Being engaged and having a voice.
As corporate leaders
is important, for sure.
But you
you mentioned about the many passionate,
authentic leaders that are,
doing more than just saying
they're actually getting out there
and actually making it happen.
And whether it's commitments to
(12:44):
climate, other
stakeholders, reconciliation
or otherwise,
I think I think there's a there's
it's almost like one part,
say two parts do would be the way
I sort of look at it,
but I don't know if you
have a perspective on that.
For a recipe,
I think that sounds good.
what I would suggest
(13:05):
is that we have an awful lot of people
in this country who are still,
even if they're saying
they're still not either
saying publicly enough and
or they're not doing
and that that's my the dilemma.
I don't know what it looks like.
We have we have business associations.
We have places
(13:26):
where where corporate leaders
can gather
and talk about the main issues,
issues of the day.
But I find,
an increasing number of
of the ones that I engage with,
feel
increasingly concerned,
but also feel,
(13:46):
a bit powerless and,
one I think if anything, that's
probably a good thing
because it's encouraging people
to find answers.
but it's not a good thing.
You don't want people to feel powerless
in the face of
of challenges
to our, you know,
economic and social prosperity.
But we need something to,
to start galvanizing people.
And maybe it's
(14:07):
maybe it's
figuring out what that looks like
in a way that can help
companies do things.
I'll use an example, a recent example
that I thought of corporate,
Canada stepping up,
which I thought was really interesting.
And this was the,
the Creative Destruction Labs
out of U of T,
which has now gotten quite a lot
(14:27):
bigger, globally.
it was done under their auspices,
but really it was,
And I'm going to simplify this, but,
give 12, 15
Canadian companies, give or take,
Covid hits.
But these companies all had,
were all providing
(14:48):
essential services
of one kind or another.
And so, you know,
you hear a whole all the, the challenges
of going back to the office.
Well,
an awful lot of people in this country
and around the world
didn't have the
the ability to not work on site.
Suncor was a part of the consortium.
So they set up a
what they called
the Rapid Testing Consortium,
because these companies
all needed to have people come on site.
(15:11):
They all needed to protect those people
as, as best as possible.
But the rapid testing
knowledge was was scattered.
And so fundamentally,
all these different companies,
Air Canada was involved,
Suncor was involved, Loblaws or,
you know, Loblaws and Shoppers
Drug Mart were involved.
a number of of big Canadian companies,
all in different sectors.
(15:32):
The one thing that brought them together
was we need to figure out rapid
testing really fast.
And so simplifying it, it was you
try this one, you try this one,
you try this one,
you try this one, you try this one.
And then let's compare notes
so that they could come up with
effective rapid testing
as, as quickly as possible.
(15:54):
And I thought I I've been I just
I think that's a really,
really interesting example.
This was not their
traditional business associations.
This was a gathering of people
with a common challenge.
And it was pretty cool.
I just thought that was a it
(16:15):
just a great example of corporate Canada
getting together and collaborating,
where these organizations
wouldn't
necessarily
have had a whole lot of other stuff
in common.
That's an excellent example of
I had a front row
seat to that one myself, and it was just
but like you sort of said,
sort of elevating above what is the
(16:36):
what is the system
level issue
country, community level,
country level issue and,
and bringing on this particular case,
bringing experimentation to bear,
to find
to find the,
the outcome for the greater good.
As a community member,
I think
when you can see that
something needs to be done,
just go and do it
rather than pointing at somebody else and
(16:58):
sort of saying,
you know, I'm waiting for
somebody else
to actually do
what I should otherwise do.
So let’s go to of the challenge of equality,
because I think equality
is going to relationship
with trust as well.
And,
you know,
we did our own survey
that we called
at the Common Ground Survey.
93% of Canadians
strongly believe
in the importance of equality
and fostering a more civil society,
(17:21):
which emphasizes
you know, the significance
of addressing the power dynamics
and the impact
on marginalized communities
and the role
that individuals
in positions of privilege
play in promoting equity.
we we said off air
about where all relatively new Canadians,
just a few generations apart,
and this country's built by newcomers
(17:43):
with the belief
that they could thrive
in a safe environment through hard work.
is this the case today
or what has changed in your mind?
in that regard?
Well, I think that
we benefit we benefit here.
And to your point,
you've had the benefit of living
in in Australia.
And Australia
is a very successful country as well.
(18:06):
from having,
a system of government that,
understands its role in making sure
that there is public health,
that there is public education,
that there is a system
of redistributing wealth
that ensures equality of opportunity.
And I and I and I
stress equality of opportunity
(18:28):
because there's no such thing
as full equality.
But people will not achieve
those opportunities.
If they don't have, at least
they will not achieve their own success
fully
if they do not have,
equality of opportunity.
And I think that's key.
It's, it's
what built this country is, is. Yeah.
From what I can see,
you've got to have that
belief that you're going to.
(18:49):
Well if you
don't then it's, it's
pretty easy to, to give up.
but you know,
you also need to recognize
individual rights.
I think those are really important.
But I worry that
over the decades of that success
and now I'm speaking as a Canadian
because that's my experience.
I worry that that that very success
(19:13):
has almost allowed our society
to become complacent.
There we go.
There's another there's another podcast.
I think I do worry that,
an awful lot of Canadians
have become pretty complacent
about how our economy actually works.
and that in a functioning society,
and this is a bit cliche,
(19:33):
but with rights and rights
to education,
rights to health, rights to those
equal opportunities, if you will,
rights to the benefit
of some of that wealth, redistribution.
But with those rights
come responsibilities
and not just responsibilities.
And, you know,
(19:53):
that's a whole other podcast.
But how does how does that manifest?
Like what,
you know,
how do people actually take
on those responsibilities?
but also just a
recognition that and this is, again,
equality of opportunity
does not mean that
everything will ultimately be perfect
for everyone
because not
everybody has the same skill sets.
Not everybody has the same talent,
(20:15):
not everybody has the same drive.
Right.
And so, it is it is something
I think we've lost a little bit that,
with rights come responsibilities
and not everything's going to be perfect.
And it's up to each one of us
to work at
(20:35):
what we need for ourselves
and our families,
but also for our communities.
Do you still see it slightly
different elsewhere,
Martha, in the world,
when you compare and contrast
other countries to Canada?
I'm not sure that I can
because this is my lived experience.
(20:57):
You know, I lived
I lived for a year, in Europe,
in the Czech
Republic was really interesting,
by the way.
And, you know, not long after the
the Iron Curtain had fallen,
I guess for, for listeners,
you have to be of a certain age
to even know what the Iron Curtain means.
I got it, I got it
(21:17):
But that was
also a very interesting time
for the Czech people.
And so I can't even compare that,
even though I lived there and,
and really appreciated it.
I mean, we, we also,
I guess you could
maybe compare a little bit
to other countries with similar histories
and similar backgrounds.
I think,
frankly, Australia is a great competitor,
(21:40):
a great country
for Canada to compare itself to.
but that's a pretty relatively small
part of the world as a whole, for sure.
I was I was driving in this morning.
I apologize,
this would be the last thing that I,
that I quote, but,
is a quote that I listen
to a lot of audiobooks and the quote to
(22:00):
come out, “When a man is doing
well for himself,
but his country's falling to pieces,
he goes to pieces along with it.
But a struggling individual
has much better hopes
if his country is thriving”.
Oh, gosh, I love that.
Oh, isn't that this?
And this is where.
That's a great quote.
Pericles 431 BC.
(22:24):
my point
my point is he was saying it back then.
yeah.
And it's so true today.
And it ties to what you sort of said if,
the community is not thriving,
I don't know, some Canadians have done
some terrific work on this as well.
Oh, the country's not thriving then.
You know, the individual,
(22:45):
is going to struggle, as a result.
So and
then you talk about,
you know,
some, some social safety nets
and the like and common
rights and expectations
that you have
as a citizen of a great country
like Canada.
here,
you know,
the only way that that works
is if you continue to grow,
if you continue to have a,
(23:07):
thriving economy, and,
and I just wanted to throw that in
because I just,
I don't know, serendipitous that it
I just at many hours
that I listened to that
I heard that one this morning.
Well, That's brilliant.
And we'll forgive, Pericles
for referring to men and not men.
And and, there was a moment. Right.
(23:28):
We'll give them a pass.
But the the concept
is incredibly important
for what we've just been talking about.
The importance of corporate leaders
in Canada
to step up their
these are all very successful
people, right?
They are
the leaders
in their corporate organizations.
that quote is fantastic.
I am going to use it in my
(23:50):
in my ongoing conversations
of how to get corporate
leadership more engaged
in, in the future of this country.
We talked a little bit about
is Canada
get all Canadians becoming complacent.
and, you know,
if you do have that
diversity of perspective
and an opinion from, you know Raman,
you've worked around the world as well.
(24:12):
And
and we've mentioned,
you know,
my, my, my,
home country being Australia,
you get a perspective to sort of say,
hey, I arrived here on the shores
and I said,
this is the greatest country in the world.
The world has got so much opportunity
because we sort of see -
And I'm coming from Australia.
If you're not coming from Australia,
you're coming from a,
(24:32):
a different
location, just the opportunities
that are there to
to snap ourselves
out of that complacency,
if you will, with that diverse
perspective to sort of,
you know,
get us to stand up and move forward
and actually do something great wealth.
But, be interested, Raman,
if you have any thoughts on that,
(24:53):
it ties a little bit
to the previous question
on newcomers as well.
Like,
I don't believe in my heart of hearts
that people come to Canada,
you definitely didn't.
My parents
definitely didn't
come with the view
of being complacent, right?
I think people come
with a sense of optimism.
They come with a sense of real pride
of coming to Canada,
gratitude too, gratitude.
And yet here we are talking about
(25:14):
the fact that over generations
it feels like we become complacent.
So the big question for me,
and I love your perspective, Martha, on
that is why?
Like, what is it
that happens
between the time
that people choose to come
and they say, yes, we're going to come.
We're going to make something special
happen from a livelihood perspective
for their personal selves,
but also for their families
(25:34):
and maybe even
sending connections back home.
But they come with a real,
you know, fire in the belly, so to speak.
Yes.
And and the
the bit that's been noodling on my mind.
And I had the privilege
of living in the UK for ten years
and coming back to Canada
is we have such a privileged position
of being such a globally diverse,
(25:55):
like microcosm.
We are the world, yes.
And it's an untapped resource
that what's holding us back from
just being world class
across a number of different dimensions,
including today
on certainty and public confidence.
Well, your your comment
about the diversity of backgrounds
of, of people living in Canadian
in Canada is so true.
(26:16):
I mean, that
that diversity and it is often diverse
diversity of opinion
because of backgrounds,
because of, you know,
how long somebody been here,
what they had to leave,
why they had to leave,
their home countries.
And I think an awful lot of the attitude
in coming to a new country is the stuff
(26:37):
you had to leave
behind in order
to make a better opportunity
for your family, right?
That so that's that's
that affects a lot of people's views.
I do think what happens over
generations is that,
and the
and you don't want people
to have to fight for things.
It's lovely that we have a society
(26:58):
where people,
you know, we do have a social safety net.
We do have those protections.
But,
you know, the people who left
awful situations,
who talk about
how they came to Canada in their 20s
or 30s, were a little bit older,
but had their kids grew up here
(27:19):
and they might be doctors,
they might have been
trained as engineers,
they might have been trained in all sorts
or business success.
But because of, you know,
frankly, some of our regulatory barriers.
But but, you know, they're they're here
and telling me about their four kids,
all of whom have got
(27:39):
have graduate degrees
and how they put these kids
through school
and they have these opportunities,
each generation
after that has had to fight less.
That's a generalization.
But but my point, I think, is that,
unless we unless we find ways
to to
remind people
and reinforce
(28:00):
the fact that this is not for free
like this opportunity
we have in Canada
didn't just happen on its own
and doesn't continue
to happen on its own,
that we all have rights,
but we also all have responsibilities.
This is a really important thing,
and I and I do,
I what I find striking
is that to your point,
(28:21):
people who are new and have left places
or situations that are not
so, supportive,
get they get it. They get the fact that this is not
this is just not a freebie.
This is not a,
we can't make
the assumption that this is
(28:42):
this just happens.
I think it,
I'm going to make a segue here
that that encouragement
that you got to keep going,
that you've got to keep putting
in, you've got to keep sacrificing,
if you will. You have to keep building.
it sort of relates to the is it a myth
or is it not a myth
(29:03):
and how Canadian organizations
get to a certain size and then they
they stop growing,
if you will, or they, you know,
they, they exit that, that that company.
We're talking a little bit there
before about,
you know,
wanting Canadian organizations
stay here
for longer and big,
build bigger organizations
such that we keep
Canadian talent and we keep,
(29:24):
you know,
Canadian pride
in our communities to
to thrive and prosper. But,
there's there's a little bit
of that in there as well.
We've got to keep the hunger up,
if you will.
And that
because that
that's really
I think the secret secret sauce,
for Canada or has been in the past,
certainly as a contrast, people use the,
(29:44):
the United States as a,
as a, an example of,
a society where there's a lot more drive,
there's a lot more, risk taking.
maybe it is partly that
generational thing.
Maybe it's
that there's a
and there's a bit devil's advocate here
(30:06):
because we have such a good country
and we have a good society,
and we do have these opportunities.
but also that comfort of,
you know,
the public health system
and public education
and all of those things that,
and you don't want
people to be hungry, to your point, like,
(30:28):
you know, where's the hunger?
But on the other hand,
there are lots of people who say,
gosh, it's pretty great not being hungry.
It's pretty great.
You know,
I can run a successful business.
I can build it to a certain point.
But gee,
I want to spend more time
with my kids
and and so I'll, I'll
for some big American company
and we're very critical.
We can be very critical of that.
(30:48):
How come you're not growing
your company bigger?
How come you're not,
you know, driving harder?
as a society,
from an overall economic perspective,
we would love those people
to be building more,
to be to be driving more.
but I do. I
maybe it
isn't always worthy of criticism.
(31:09):
Maybe there's an element of
people understanding
that there is more to life
than than just making money.
I would, I would say part of the
the challenge that we see is not so much
I mean, there is that there is a
there's a clear
challenge of Canadian companies
getting to a certain size,
not going public,
(31:29):
but rather selling out to
and on often to Americans, partly
because the America,
you know, the US
markets are so much bigger in
the US, investors are so much bigger.
So, you know, there's a bit of that,
the elephant and the mouse.
But, but we do,
I think have a problem in Canada.
And again, this is if we see a problem,
what are the solutions.
What, what
what are the things that we can
come up the up with there
(31:50):
that would constructively help.
And we do have a challenge in Canada of
small companies
having the
wherewithal to get
to become medium sized companies.
And those there are some things
or companies not going public,
but just focusing on private on
private equity.
(32:11):
There are things that we can do to change
that.
There are certain regulations
that we can change.
you know,
we have regulations
that basically encourage
small businesses to stay small,
through our capital gain
systems, through our,
you know, various incentives.
We have a regulatory system
that makes it
brutally difficult
(32:32):
to go public and stay public.
so
it's there are some things
that we could actually make concrete
changes to.
There are other things like
why is our society attitudinally,
not driving hard enough?
That's a much harder nut to crack.
It's,
I often reflect on that public, private,
(32:54):
the importance of a thriving community
and pillar organizations in a community
to make it thriving.
and, you know, I know these
theories of people like Zita Cobb
would sort of say,
you know, a thriving
country is
is a build up, a thriving communities,
as well.
(33:15):
So, and,
and you mentioned that we do small,
small, medium, very,
very good in this country.
they're very,
very successful enterprises.
and, and then I also think about
this demographic shift,
which is something that I had studied
(33:35):
earlier in my career.
But,
you know,
the thing that we knew
was going to happen is now happening.
And that impacts small businesses
too, the transfer,
if you will, to the next generation.
Or as is often the case,
not, so even those thriving pillars
of Canadian communities
that have been there for decades
(33:57):
and now not seeing a path
to stay there because, you know,
there's got to be some sort of,
exit event, if you will.
to facilitate that.
And if
you look at those numbers
of organizations
and where they're located,
there are thousands of organizations
that are going through that,
and this is the business owners
(34:18):
that are between,
you know, 55
and 65 years of age with no obvious
a succession plan in place and,
and the like.
So to to your point,
we've got to get this right.
because we've got to get that risk taker.
That's what did you call it? Raman?
Fire in the belly.
(34:39):
risk taker with fire in the belly.
with the adequate support and incentives
to take on these
these foundational pillars
and each of the communities to succeed.
Well, and and removing the disincentives,
because there are some
I mean, we do have regulatory
(34:59):
we have regulation is really important.
Don't get me wrong.
you need it,
but we have it's a balance, isn't it?
But when when it takes
you 258 days
different to build a warehouse
200km apart
across the border
with the US and Canada,
250 days is a lot of missed opportunity,
(35:20):
so.
So I do have one last question.
And actually, it's for both of you, A.V.
and yourself, Martha.
And that question is
we've covered a range of topics today,
kind of talking a little bit
around inclusion.
And we started the conversation
on uncertainty, public confidence.
And yet we did circle back
a couple of times of the same thing
(35:40):
that ultimately it's our responsibility.
So both as individuals have.
A.V. and Martha,
what do you feel
is important in the roles
that you play both personally
in your personal lives
and your professional lives?
What needs to be true
for Canadians to thrive,
and we both maintain and
increase social optimism?
(36:01):
I think.
What what what we do as as leaders
and so many people
are leaders in their own spheres.
what we do, as opposed to what we say
is so critically important.
and how we do
it is also critically important.
(36:23):
And, you know, I, I do worry
that, governments are becoming
increasingly political
and are less concerned
about making decisions
for the right reasons.
but are making decisions more
because of political reasons and
that means that people
(36:45):
who have knowledge, who have expertise,
who can contribute to the decision
making that is needed,
is
they just need to become more engaged.
There's lots of things,
but I, I am quite focused now
on, interestingly enough,
because I'm in academia now,
(37:06):
I'm with the University of Calgary.
But from a public policy perspective,
trying to figure out how to get corporate
leaders more involved,
there's a tremendous amount of talent,
a tremendous amount of
experience, knowledge,
but not enough engagement.
And, and I will add a little twist
to that.
That doesn't mean
getting together and complaining,
(37:27):
and it doesn't mean
going to lobby governments.
and I,
you know, we have certain
current politicians
who are very critical of lobbying.
I'm critical more because,
the world has changed with the way people
get their information.
So right to our very beginning,
who are people trusting?
Who are people listening to?
(37:48):
Well, if you're a politician
and you want people to vote for you,
you need to understand
where they're getting their information.
And if they're getting
their information from Facebook,
are they getting their information
from from influencers
and not as traditionally
a broader set of inputs.
Then there's a problem.
Back to my point about
(38:10):
if it's not authentic
and if it's not honest,
it's not going to work.
See right through it. Okay.
AV?
Yeah, I was just going to get on,
where I started.
To vote.
I think that's going to be key, voting.
I think
at the role that we play as leaders,
(38:31):
in, in making sure
that all the information is there
and understandable so Canadians can vote
on the outcomes of the vote.
Buy into that.
What you sort of said,
that social contract, if you will.
would be the first part of the answer.
And my response to the question,
I think this the, the, the thing that,
(38:54):
we as leaders in corporate Canada
or all organizations
need to buy into this premise
that if those around us do well,
all of us do well,
if it's only you that are doing well,
and that's a big
that's going to involve a leap of faith.
Some people will call it courage
(39:14):
to be able to do that.
Some people will say, do the right thing.
I've heard it up here.
Pay it forward.
I think
I think we've got to buy into that.
And,
and we've got to stop talking about that,
and we got to lead from that.
And you touched on
something earlier, Martha
or and that which was, and, and Raman,
(39:35):
and we were talking
about it as well is the,
that recognition
that is not just about making money
for our shareholders.
It's a recognition
that you can make all the money you want.
But if society falls apart,
you know, that's not a good outcome.
So how are you going to do it
(39:56):
the right way, if you will?
and how you do it
with authenticity and credibility,
I think is going to be key.
So, you know, doing that as corporate,
getting those communities thriving,
having people
believe in the opportunity that,
that I have a shot.
I think you sort of said
an equal opportunity.
(40:16):
I have a shot at hard work.
I can succeed.
to me, that's not a new formula.
That's how this country
was built in the first place.
So, Yeah, that'll be my response.
Raman.
And and if I can just add,
and this is
an add a dose of of positivity into this.
And in my experience, people rally
(40:39):
when they see others trying hard.
if if you see somebody else,
especially somebody in a position of,
of, of leadership, influence,
you see that person trying hard
with passion and honesty and integrity
not only for themselves,
but if you see those people working hard
for their communities,
right in the public interest,
(41:01):
whether that be their local community,
whether that be their province,
whether that be Canada,
whether that be globally,
that's pretty inspiring.
and encouraging to others.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
given that we talked
about the pandemic earlier and,
I know we're pushing against time here,
but we had situations
(41:21):
where we’re helping
frontline workers with their groceries.
I mean, that's community coming together.
Right.
And you mentioned
that other example around
rapid testing and the like.
So that we could all, you know,
we could all eat,
safely if you will get our groceries
and things get delivered, medications
(41:42):
and the like.
So I couldn't agree with you more.
It is contagious.
or I call it inspiration,
if you want to call it that as well.
You come together
and people will do
extraordinary things for each other.
But I think that comes back
to where we started.
That core ingredient is trust.
and, and having that understanding.
(42:03):
Yeah.
I would like to talk to you
and go into episode
two and three and four.
but I think that we've come
to the end of time.
Martha, Thank you.
Raman, thank you
for today,
it's all the time that we have,
and,
I would just
call out,
look out for our next episode as well.
(42:25):
Thank you.
Thanks, Martha.
Thanks so much.
So, listeners, today,
hopefullyyou found that podcast interesting.
it certainly was for myself and Ramon.
what particularly resonatedwas the social contract,
that contract that you engagewith as being part of a society
(42:47):
and how it's only effectivewhen we have confidence,
in our governments and in the systems
around our communities.
and our responsibility
to, you know, participate, in,
with our voice, with our votenotwithstanding, we also talked
(43:08):
a little bit more about how corporateleaders can play a role here in being,
the need for corporate lateststep forward and be engaged,
and being part of the solutionto build public trust,
trust in the institutions that are pillarsof our communities and society at large.
The role of leaders to help,
(43:29):
citizens, our employees,
vote responsibly to effect the change
that they want as individual citizens,
to make sure they are informed fullyso that they can make the best decision.
Some of the learnings that come out of,that conversation with Martha is,
you know, diversifying your news sourcesand making sure that you're getting
(43:52):
credible information,and calibrating credible information,
and using your voiceto make the changes that you say
will make a healthier country todayand tomorrow.
The second takeaway is something that I'msure a lot of you listeners understand
is this this conceptthat if when others do good, you do good.
(44:15):
and, this concept of paying it forward,contributing
to the collective for the benefit
of the collective and yourself,ultimately, at the end of the day.
So, listeners,
encourage you to hopefully you've,
got your own takeawaysfrom this conversation.
(44:36):
thank you for joining us.
And, look forward to,
talking to you againon the next episode of Full Circle.
Cheers.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony View and original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
Rate and review this series on ApplePodcasts, and if you haven't already,
don't forget to subscribe to Full Circleon your favorite podcast platform.
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