May 15, 2025 • 52 mins
What is the role of personal character in changing the world?
Discover the transformative power of character-centered leadership as we explore the role it plays in changing the world. Through captivating interviews, we shed light on the consequences of compartmentalizing our beliefs and actions and offer practical strategies to bridge the gap. Join us as we delve into the importance of aligning personal character with core values to build a brighter, more fulfilling future.
Guest: Mary Crossan, Professor of Strategic Leadership, Ivey Business School
Co-hosts: Anthony Viel, CEO, Deloitte Canada and Chile, and Mike Robitaille, Partner, Deloitte.Isaac
A French transcript of this episode can be read here: https://deloi.tt/4m67uil
***
Quel est le rôle du caractère d’une personne dans le changement du monde?
Découvrez la puissance transformatrice du leadership axé sur la personnalité tandis que nous explorerons le rôle qu’il joue dans le changement du monde. Grâce à des entrevues captivantes, nous avons fait la lumière sur les conséquences du compartimentage de nos croyances et de nos actions, et nous offrons des stratégies pratiques pour combler l’écart. Joignez-vous à nous alors que nous explorons l’importance d’aligner la personnalité sur les valeurs fondamentales afin de bâtir un avenir plus brillant et plus épanouissant.
Personne invitée : Mary Crossan, professeure de leadership stratégique, Ivey Business School
Coanimateurs : Anthony Viel, leader de la direction, Deloitte Canada et Mike.css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Unlocking the human spirit in the serviceof whatever
it is we're doing in the organization.
That's the secret sauce.
Welcome
to this episode of Full Circle,a show where we confront Canada's pressing
challenges and societal issuesalongside this country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Viel, and I'mthe CEO of Deloitte Canada and Chile.
(00:24):
On this episode,we're asking the question,
what is the role of personal characterin changing the world?
I had the honorof speaking with Mary Crossan,
a distinguished university professorand professor
of strategic leadership at WesternUniversity's Ivy Business School.
She is renowned for extensive researchon organizational learning,
(00:45):
strategy, leadership, characterand improvization, with a recent focus
on the development of leader characteras a foundation for effective leadership.
She's also a co-founder of the Questionof Character podcast series
and has coauthored several influentialbooks, including Strategic Analysis
and Action Developing Leadership,Character, and The Character Compass.
(01:09):
Joining me also is
co-host is MikeRobitaille, the lead partner of Deloitte,
Isaac Canada'sfirst and only purpose and momentum group.
Mike is an authorityon organizational purpose
with a deep expertisein how leadership can drive
social change and influencebusiness and societal outcomes.
Let's get started.
(01:37):
Hello.
I'm thrilled to be here with youboth that I welcome to Full Circle.
Let's, let's turn to Mary.
Yeah.
So, Mary, one of the things I think isfascinating is a bit of a why now?
The Good Place.
I don't knowif you've watched that on Netflix.
You know, here's a sitcom that's talkingabout Kant and Nietzsche and Aristotle.
(01:57):
It seems as though,if you will, character is having a moment.
Why do you why do you think that is?
I think there's been a lot of attemptsover many, many years trying to find,
you know, solutions to problemsthat keep reoccurring.
And our first foray intoit was the '08,
global financial crisis,where we were trying to understand.
why did some firms really do poorly.
(02:21):
And it was at that time that for usthen we were discovering,
character as being a very central pieceabout why
some firms fail and othersand others do well.
When I was picking upand listening to you, as you started out,
I was also thinking, though,for the listeners to,
you know, pick up that there's a turnon character now that's different than,
(02:44):
I think,where, philosophers were taking us,
even though it's the most ancientarea of study.
It was brought into modern day workwith, psychologist,
Martin Seligmanand Christoph Peterson.
So as people begin to listen about this,thinking about it
as not just being about ethicsand being a good person,
(03:09):
but it is about sustainedexcellence and human flourishing.
So there's somethingthere's something bigger here
that I think we should be keepingin mind as we carry on.
Yeah,
we have one as one of our inspirations.
A quotation from Martin Seligman.
He said when a society is richand triumphant, its people
(03:30):
start to ask not justwhat can be had from it, from life,
but how can I live a lifethat's worth living?
And it seems like well-beingeven is an essential benefit
of undertaking this work.
It is a huge benefit.
You know, in this 24/7 social media,
(03:52):
on us with the turbulencethat we face in the world,
I often describe it as, you know,it's like,
your context is like a heavyweight boxercoming into the ring.
And when it comes to character,we're pretty lightweight.
We're going to get
knocked out all the time,and that's going to affect our well-being.
Right? That'swhere we're going to get burnout.
(04:12):
We get stressed.
We have people feelingthat they, you know,
are backed into a cornerabout things that they really can't,
do, the things that they've aspired to do.
So character becomes really very,very central in creating that agency
to handle the context that we're in.
(04:32):
And like meaningful work and well-being.
Like,those are the themes of the day for people
and in human resources,for people who lead a workforce.
And yet it does consistently strike melike in business.
We've been saying culture eatsstrategy for breakfast.
It's three decades of us
making that observation,but not getting much better at doing it.
(04:54):
Like,do you think this character and call it
the academic inquiry into this subject?
Can it be a solution to that?
Can it be an agent oflike really meaningful culture, really
fulfilling culture? Employee well-being?
I have to be as provocative is to sayit is the solution.
(05:15):
You know,my field is strategy, culture, learning.
I've spent 40 yearsat the Ivy Business School
looking and workingwith organizations in this space
and watching themstumble over many, many years.
And I think the issue iswhat we never really understood.
And we've got an articlethat's going to be coming out
in the next few months about how charactereats culture for breakfast,
(05:38):
because that's, you know,that has been the problem.
And when we think about culture,we describe it
as the culture of our organizationswill be a reflection
of the characterof the individuals within it.
So if we haven't really understoodwhat character is we,
we actually hardwireinto our organization.
(05:59):
I'm a big fan of thinking about culture,and we can really demystify
it by actually understanding culturethrough a character line.
Well, there's a rather famous outdoorapparel company,
and I won't say an actual brand name,but like a lot of companies
give time off to their workforceto recognize effort and mitigate burnout.
(06:23):
This particular company let its retailstaff have the time between Christmas
and New Year's off, which the act in itof itself probably, you know, nice.
You probably get a check mark.
But they said we're doing itbecause we want our staff to get outside.
We want them to get some dirt undertheir fingernails, spend time with family,
love the outdoors, and go, oh,that's why you're doing it.
(06:44):
Like you actually understand the characterthey're trying
that they're actively formalizing.
Well, I wanted to kind of pick up
on the idea that you're raising hereis the development of character
and its manifestation is, is is possible
everywhere, personally and professionally.
(07:05):
So even you know that active you know, whoare we becoming while we're busy doing?
Are we are we at our desks,you know, toiling away, transacting
through somethingthat we're not developing courage
and we're not developing accountabilityor, you know, maybe in this case,
you're actually outside and you're you'reyou're cultivating your transcendence
or you're cultivating, you know,some sense of possibility about things.
(07:29):
So, so the opportunity,I think, for individuals and organizations
to really be thinking about wewe can be cultivating character
while we do things and transformwhat we are doing in the process of that.
I know we'll get into this partof the conversation, but this is character
(07:50):
is something that, it's not a new thing,but it seems to be
a very popular, at present.
And from all the all that we've discussedso far.
The time is right. We need more of this.
I also
think about it in the context,and I don't know if you agree,
Mario Mark, but in the context of how
(08:12):
you as a leader come and, and make,
choices beyond the success of yourself,your organization.
But for the system and the communityof which you are an integral part of,
do you see charactersplaying a role in that sort
of higher order system level outcomes?
I certainly do.
(08:34):
I actually don't know how you do itwithout strengthening character.
And here's where I'll pick upon some things that I witnessed.
Watching watching leadersoperate the capacity
to think at that systems level.
It's not just systems thinking.
I mean, those are the things I would teachand, field of strategy.
(08:54):
But, when we think aboutmaybe systems being, how can I be somebody
who does that?
So, so we look at even,dimension of accountability.
Many people strugglejust with being accountable to themselves,
let alone asking them to be accountable
to the team,the organization or the system.
(09:16):
And, they don't they don't know.
It isn't just changing a mindsetis actually working
some muscles every single day.
That's strengthened that muscle ofaccountability so they can get to a point
where they're actually embracingsomething beyond themselves to a system.
And, and,and that is that's a big problem, right?
(09:36):
Because it isn't just us ina business school teaching people about,
socially responsible behavior or sustainability or systems thinking it is actually,
strengthening the
muscles of characterthat enable us to do that.
I'm very encouraged.
Mike, do you got anything to add?
Yeah.
Just so it's maybe a variationon the thinking, but like that
(09:58):
ripple effect pebble in a pond analogythat we enjoyed using.
And I'm going to mess up,
like a time honored quotation, butsomething along the lines of the ideals
we have for a good life, beliefswe have inform our words.
Words inform our actions.
Actions are our legacy.
I think you add another ringto that concentric circle.
(10:21):
It is, and your legacy can changeyour organization.
Your legacy can change a country early,but legacy can change a society.
But it starts with one person with abelief that we just might be better.
I love that you brought that one upbecause there is
this adapted quote,so we'll insert character into it.
Be mindful of your thoughts.They become your words.
(10:42):
Be mindful of your words.They become your actions.
Be mindful of your actions.
They become your habit.
Be mindful of your habits.
They become your character.
Be mindful of your characterbecomes your destiny.
And then that, you know, oftenwhen we're working in organizations
and we're thinking about that destiny,we're saying, so what has to change
in our character in order to foster
(11:07):
a new
thought, new words, new actions,new habits.
And that's those micro momentsof character that, you know,
I love the connection that you're raising.
They're around where is that destiny that,we can imagine?
Yeah.
I'm incredibly encouraged.
By the last couple of commentsin particular,
(11:29):
when we talk about this is,
well, I feel this is within our control.
Mary, you mentioned cultivating character,which implies
building muscle,which implies, hey, wait a second.
This is within my control,and I can do something about it, too,
as you sort of say, said before,you know, build on a legacy that,
that, that that has an enduring impact
(11:52):
on something much, much bigger than, youknow, an individual success, if you will.
Mary.
What what insight do you have forour audience around building this muscle?
Of of characteror cultivating character is, is there
any advice or
any, inspirationthat you can leave the audience with.
(12:13):
The underlying science on habitdevelopment and changing that?
There are a numberof really important condition.
First of all, the intention to developthe behavior is huge.
Many people have no ideaabout how character actually leads
to positive outcomes.
So we've got a fairbit on the educational front
(12:34):
to help people understandwhat character is and how it operate.
Having said that,there are other conditions.
What about our peer influence?
So I may know that,but if everybody around me
is not really cultivating those behaviors,it's going to be difficult.
If it's not the norms of the organization,it's not what we reward,
(12:54):
in the organization.
If it's not, something I believe I can do.
I haven't been given the toolsand the toolkit to be able
to work on the development of character.
It will undermine my development.
And then there'sthe actual exercise of it.
So there's a science around exercise.
You know,we don't just go out and run a marathon.
There's a there's a way that you gothrough progression and training.
(13:18):
So the thing I want to leavemaybe listeners with
is there arethere's a science about how to do this.
We know what character is.
We know how to develop it.
There are tools and techniques.
And so it's really just a matter ofI think as James
Clear started to talk about,if you want to go to the character gym,
the or the, in his case, the physical gym,first thing is put on your running shoes
(13:41):
and then you know you'll getyou'll get a step in the right direction.
I want to take this exercise analogyjust a little bit further.
If I may.
And it'sin the context of some of the things
that I've been reading upon, is this concept
of hiring for character.
And and the question, Mary would be like,
(14:04):
if you think about, an elite athlete,
we normally pick out the,
characteristics, like, you got to havethose characteristics to start with
before you go into your exerciseand you're training
to to become the best athletethat you can be.
I know that you've sort of shared with usthe notion
(14:24):
that we can all develop our character,which is terrific.
But in terms of making those changesand forming those habits
that you're talking about, do we get offto a good start as an organization,
corporationor otherwise, by by putting a lens
or a filter on those we bring intothe organization that already
(14:45):
have some grounding and characterthat's been, you know,
proven or attained through that life upuntil entering that organization.
Is that a folly or is that is itcould that be something,
that can accelerate your organizationor what your community you're part of
to having that characterimpacts, sooner rather than later?
(15:08):
Letting on
characteris one of the key cornerstones of,
mechanisms you can use in an organizationto start to change that culture.
Because if culture
is going to be a reflectionof the character of the individuals in it,
who you bring in matters,who you promote matters.
And I wrote a piece in, Sloan Management
Reviewtalking about selecting on character.
(15:30):
You talk about professional sports.
Now, the cool part about characteris the more organizations
become sophisticated about their capacityto develop character,
they know the gapsthat they could live with
in terms of imbalances in character,where somebody just
didn't really have the, the backgroundor the opportunity.
(15:52):
And they got these imbalances.
But under the right coaching,we could, you know, close those gaps.
Here's the tough part about it.
We do know how to select on character.
The real sticking point is
the development of character underpinsthe selection of character,
because otherwise you're relying onsomebody like me
(16:13):
who spends a lot of timein the development of character.
What we need to do in organizationsis have that groundswell
of people who are developing character
because when they are doing that,they can identify it in others.
It's, it's a great point.
And that, in that sense of,
you know, getting a fair where the teamor a fair where the organization
(16:38):
that as soon as the wind turns againstand we all fall apart.
But, Mary,you said something that intrigued me.
The rebalance, the rebalancing.
I've done a little bit of studying themnow where in
not even in your hemisphere, let alone
stratosphere of the experiencethat you have, but
and studied around the fullcardinal virtues and the importance
(16:59):
of having the four cardinal virtuesbalance.
And I think I'm hearing conceptuallythat similarly with character, where,
you know,we have over weighted some of those,
some of those elements of characterand neglected some others.
You know, I think you're expressingthe importance of balance.
(17:20):
It did.
Did I hear that right? Or is that.
You did hear that right?
And you know, to help people bridge,you know,
the connectionbetween virtues and character.
You know, what's very cool about what
Aristotle raised with respect to virtue
is that they can operate inand a deficient and an up state.
(17:40):
And that'swhere character begins to come in
where we can observe our character,we can describe our character, and
it can be operating in a deficient state,can be operating in an access state.
So the work we've done is to try to bring,
you know,some science around understanding
that some people are just making up ideasabout what character is.
(18:02):
Actually, that's what got us into trouble.
So virtues is the sort of idealistic statethat we want to be thinking about.
Character.
Is this really tangible, observablebehavior that we can think about
that can operate in a deficientor an excess state.
But at your point, Mary,if I'm interpreting odds with the science,
we can tell,
(18:23):
when we're operating in excess ordeficient, and we can alter with actions
to get back to the equilibriumthat we want for what is ostensibly lead
to high performance,whatever that transpires,
or by whatever measure that youthat you're putting performance under.
Yeah, that'sthat's right. And here, here is the,
(18:44):
the golden nugget of of the challenge.
And I've seen the lights go onand thousands of executives to like,
oh my gosh, you know, it's like, whoa,
we judge ourselves on our intentionsand others on their behavior.
So most of usbelieve we've got good character.
We judging ourselves on our intentions.
When it comes to character,it is about our observable behaviors.
(19:07):
So we want to be accountable to that.
And and yeah,even though we don't have intentions
to be dismissive or disrespectfulof somebody, our observable
behavior might be such that,you know, a group of, people in
the room would describe our behavioras having been disrespectful.
So we want to, first of all, own upto when it comes to character.
(19:30):
It's not just our intention that matters.
We want to be thinkingabout the observable behavior.
Now, the other problemis, and research shows, 85% of us
believe we're self aware and only 10% are.
So we have this big gap
about the fact that we don't really see
ourselves operating in the deficientor excess vice state.
(19:54):
And I have a, you know, the roadmapof the deficient and excess vices
sits right beside my computer,and it's a constant roadmap for me.
I think about it like, standing on abalance beam is the virtuous state.
And you're going to what's your lane?
Is it going to be leaning left,leaning right to the deficient or excess?
And recognizingthat there's always a lane?
(20:16):
I love that,I encourage leaders, in the organization
and outside the organizationto have those little prompts,
that little roadmapthat you, that you're talking about.
I mean, I wear them in my, rings and stuffjust to remind me of certain things
every day.
Because we arewe are human, and we are trying to walk
that fine line to better, to be better in.
(20:40):
And having that prompt thereor we mentioned exercise there
before as well, telling peoplethat we have been humble enough
to tell peoplethat we're trying to work on things,
putting up little prompts around you,whether it's in your bathroom mirror
or otherwise, to sort of continuallyremind you to what did you say, Mary?
To lean into a lean back towards,where the center is, I think is,
(21:05):
a wonderful and wonderful practice
that you can get into to, to,to get better in this, in this regard.
Well, you're actually picking up,
a fair biton the design of character development.
So, you know, the first stage we talkabout is just discovering character,
but the second stage is, is the exact onethat you're talking about.
(21:27):
How can you prime,remind and reinforce character?
So now that we begin to understand what itis, what is it that we're going to do?
And utilize the naturally availableresources around us?
Do we have this study that we worked onand we use it quite a
bit in our workshops?
How can we use music to activatecharacter?
We're often having music presentin our life, so how could we use it around
(21:51):
activating transcendence, or courageor drive or humility or humanity?
So we have a Spotify playliston all 11 dimensions of character
that has been cultivated by people aroundthe world who have contributed, music
that that activates for themon these dimensions of character.
So that second stage,there are five stages
(22:12):
that that second stage of activateis very important.
My concern aroundcharacter is trying to get individuals
and organizations beyond that,but that stuff is fairly easy to do.
How do we actually go to the charactergym, strengthen it,
you know, not just remind ourselves,but actually strengthen it?
Then we get to the fourth stage,which is connecting a character dimension
(22:36):
to other one.
So when I look at my weaknessesin temperance about being patient or calm,
a lot of times that isn't simplyabout becoming more patient and calm.
It's about strengthening my humanity,which might be realizing that,
you know,I get frustrated with somebody, you know,
and maybe that frustration would bediminished, which activates on my,
(22:59):
you know, lack of temperanceif I could increase my humanity.
And then the last stage is that itholds up across context and time
where we really need, you know, great
strength of character.
The thing that's also caught me is,
character
also exists in the quiet, in the boredom.
(23:20):
And I worry about thisin this world that we live in
where people have sort of retreated tonothing.
Yeah.
And, and that, you know, strengthening
character wouldn't allow us to do that
because our transcendenceand our courage and our drive gets it
gets us out of the apathyand the doldrums of,
(23:43):
you know,not believing that something is possible.
So I find character like it'sjust everywhere, right?
It's in the stress, but it's in the quiet.
It's in the it's in the nothingwhere we need, to be able to activate it.
I talk a lot,
to myself and with other leaders around,getting into that state of mind
where it is empty,so to speak, and and and you're I,
(24:06):
I'm hearing this is a warning therethat if you get into that state,
you've also got to be preparedto sort of lean into
maybe lean back to use that space to just
continue to build and strengthenyour character rather than atrophy.
Is is that a fair takeaway?
Mary. Yeah, it is a fair take away.
And, if people were to, you know, picturethe way we look at the
(24:30):
these 11 dimensions of characterjudgment is in the middle.
Aristotle called it that practical wisdom,
which means in your description,
you know,there's a fair bit around temperance
being patient and calm and self-regulatedthat that it is.
Isn't that kind of quality of being ableto still and be silent?
Our judgment is what helps us understandmoment to moment.
(24:54):
You know, how we activate on that.
And, and when we think about it, it'snot either or.
This is, I think, an important thing.
Well, a lot of work aroundcharacter is in the air and space.
And think about it in your own body.
You know, when I'm lifting the table, I'mnot thinking about what muscles
I'm activating.
They just have to be there, I push down,I use, I'm activating different muscles.
(25:17):
So we often just talk about,the development of character
is that you can be in stillness,but you can be out of stillness.
Right?
What is it you've cultivated to be ableto, you know, move
in that drive modebecause you need that result oriented.
But that might also be, accompanied by,the great temperance or patience,
(25:38):
the calm that allow you to movethrough something quickly.
On the strength part,the strengthening part.
You said the easy part is,
with the frame.
And I get this wrong.
But recognizing where to start,
what gets in our way,
of the strengthening part is that,
you know, is that apathy?
(25:59):
Is that is there anything elsethat we should be on the lookout
for as we, as we look to cultivateand build those muscles of character.
There, there are two, two big things.
One is any habit is tough to change.
So, I think anybody can kind of pickthat up as to why, whatever it is
they've tried to do,you know, learn, learn an instrument,
(26:23):
go to the gym, lose weight, stop smoking,you name it,
it's heart.
Character is no different.
So, we're trying to bring, science of habitdevelopment to specifically
to character development, to make it,recognize what it takes to move forward.
The second thing is pick up that on
(26:44):
any of those areasthat I just even talked about.
There is a science on a specific piecelike, cessation smoking.
I mean, there's a lot of science, right,about about smoking in particular, or
science about,
you know, how to, you know,
become a musician in some way.
(27:06):
So, I think what's gotten in the way aroundcharacters because people didn't know
what it was, they don't even knowwhat to do, to strengthen or develop it,
which is one of the reasonsthat we ended up developing the app.
Right, that we wantedto put in the hands of an individual
everything we know abouthow to develop character,
the fact that people may not have accessto that or may not do it.
(27:30):
What we also try to dois put out on social media
a lot of, frequentreminders of things that they can do,
because we know that actually learningto strengthen
a particular behavioris not difficult to do.
I was just working with Cory,my daughter, this morning on,
(27:51):
the strengthening behaviorsaround being passionate,
for example.
And, and it's fascinating.
Right? There's a science about about that.
And a lot of people have lost itor they've,
they don't know how to get or, strengthenthat passionate behavior.
So if we can put in their handsthe daily exercise
(28:14):
that they can learn about what that means,then they can
then start to take those steps towardsbecoming more passionate.
I was really struck by your suggestionof the importance of music
or the opportunity for musicas part of doing the work,
and I don't imagine I'm alone and,
if I do push ups to a soundtrack,whatever, I'll do a number.
(28:38):
But if you do it to the theme from Rocky,you invariably do more push.
Like to what extent?
You know, the connection between rolemodeling and the people we imagine
we can one day be better.
Like, is it a helpful thing?
Like, as you're reading books, as you'reconsuming movies like these people
that we regard as having heroic qualities,is it helpful
(28:58):
for us to actually say, that's kind ofsomething I'd I'd love to have in me?
Yes. Yeah.
So, it's a big part on round characterdevelopment.
We, we call it.
So noticing it in others.
And here's the key piece, I think, where
we've just not really understoodhow character operates.
So sometimes we
(29:20):
we valorize something that we mayor may not have.
So, I'll give you an example is, you know,
and it's not to denigrateany particular, leader.
But, you know, people will look at,
somebody like, Steve Jobs and I'll sayit, tremendous imbalances of character.
But I have seen thembeing quite successful
(29:43):
so often, our definitions of, well,what does success mean?
You know, then we look at that personas a role model.
But if we actually haven'tseen the imbalances of character,
we may be replicating the wrong thingsabout it.
We used, one of the videos,The Last Dance with, Michael Jordan,
(30:03):
and he himself will talk about,
the personal cost that he had,
where you can seehe's got some imbalances of character.
And we,
we look at had he been able to strengthensome of these other
dimensions of character, if his successmay not have come at the personal cost?
Same thing with Steve Jobs.
(30:24):
As we look at,we talk about it as episodes of leadership
and decision making.
There's a lot of episodeshe did not do very well.
And, you know,there are a lot of failures that he had.
And we would pick up thathad he actually been able to strengthen
some of his weakerdimensions of character,
we probably would have taken away the riskfactor
(30:45):
of, some of the weaker decisionsthat he made.
And that's prevalent in manyof our leaders that we see today at that.
Mary,I was smiling when you were saying that.
That's so true.
And I think that comes back to what we'retalking about earlier about humility.
A lot of these leadersthat we've idolized revitalize
for their contributionin a certain period of time,
(31:08):
notwithstanding those imbalancesthat you speak about and even worse,
after that period of time,we double down on those on those excess,
aspects of character, if you will.
Rather than the deficient, and,you know, it's almost like we,
we continue some of the deficiencieslong past.
(31:30):
So they should go and I won't go into,I won't go into,
any specific examples per se,other than to say
I really enjoy reading
works like the likes of Ryan Holiday,
who talks about the same person
in different stages.
(31:52):
Operating,
the way I think about itnow, after talking to you,
walk in that fine linebetween and rebalance and leaning back to
to walk that fine lineto build character, for the long haul.
But and maybe that's an opportunityfor leaders, though,
to like in looking at these conflictedleaders,
to actually, like, institutionalizethe admirable because there are aspects
(32:15):
of Steve Jobs that are going to definethat organization forever
and then work to remediatethe deficiencies.
But the institutionalizing
of the admirable is the opportunityfor all of today's leaders.
And, but I'm hearing from Mary and Mary
and, please correct me,
(32:36):
but if if we be taking the admirablemove forward
without recognizing the deficienciesand rectifying.
Now, that's a common mistakethat I think that that we make.
Yeah, that's right on.
And you know what's very cool about the,11 dimensions of character?
They are universal.
They stand across context, acrosstime, across sectors, entirely scalable.
(33:02):
It's not something you know it.
It's it's as applicable to your 15 yearold as to the 55 year old.
It's applicable in healthcare and finance.
It's applicable.
It is like the anatomyand physiology of the body.
So if we do understand that,we can say, well,
what was it we admired about Steve Jobs?
Tremendous, transcendent.
(33:22):
So we can we can observe that and,
and and learn from how did hehow did he get that?
Where did that come from?
And how might I cultivate that in myself?
But then we could pick up,oh, kind of weaknesses in humility.
I wonder where that why was that?
Why was that so hard for camp, you know,and then thinking
about for ourselves, well,what could we do to ward against that?
(33:45):
Maybe we look at another leaderwhere we say,
how is it that they were so successful?
And over this period of time,they always remained
with tremendous humility,about how they operate, which is a rarity.
I think you may both know the workof Collins on level five leadership. Yes.
Where? Right?
He talks about the factthat one of the scarcest things that
(34:08):
we've promoted many leaderswho actually eroded their humility
as they get to the top of the organizationand regaining
humility at that point is a lot harderthan.
Good luck keeping it along the way.
It's interesting you
said something, and I and,
even those leaders, the levelfive leaders, you mentioned, their columns
(34:30):
or the ones that we thinkthat got it right.
I bet you put them on a podcast like this
and asked them that they would not thinkthat they've done it right.
And I think that that's a lessonto all of us to say,
you know, if you think you've done it all
right with the utmost character,
you made no mistakesfrom strategic perspective.
(34:52):
You're already on your own dissolute.
You know, you're delusional. Right?
So, I think that that that it's a statethat we can get closer and closer to.
We can stay there for longer and longerwith, with some of the,
some of the encouragements, Mary,that you've given us.
But, you know, it's it's it'swe're always going to be seeking,
(35:14):
to get even even closer.
We'll never get thereand be able to declare victory.
Yeah. This work is never done. No. Yeah.
I love that.
You're right on.
It's a lifelong journey.
Character development.
And it's a constantthinking about it, right?
It, you know, as you're pushingand developing even more transcendence
and more courage, you need more temperanceand even more humanity.
(35:39):
I think we've just underestimatedthe possibility.
I certainly did, it's been,you know, good 15 years
now that I've been workingand dedicated to this space.
And I had no idea the depth
that one could keep
working on the development of character,over that space of time.
(36:01):
And I think it's it's it's, that's wherethe, connection to physical exercise,
weakens because there is no limitto what you can do physically.
There's a limit to,
the time that you put
into physical exercise character.
It's always abouthow do we transform every moment
of the day in a more positive way.
(36:25):
And we think about it's that spacebetween stimulus and response.
Are we just transacting through it,
or are we actually working onboth the development of our character
and the activation of our character tochange the quality of our conversations?
Right to change and think about whatwe're setting priority on,
how we imagine things different,how we collaborate, how
(36:47):
we cut through the red tape about things,how do we, cut through noise
and in the process,find ourselves, at the end of the day,
not entirely depleted by, you know,I got nothing left
but actually energized
by the the work that we did that day.
And that's that's the secret, isn't it?
(37:07):
And that's what leads me to,
a question I want to put on
the table here about thismeaning and purpose
and suchthat you can get to the end of that day.
And we've all felt it, I'm sure,
maybe once, maybe many times.
But you get to the end and you just
you are full of energy, yetyou've got no more to give, so to speak.
(37:31):
Because of what you've been ableto find that meaning and purpose.
When you think about Mary,leader character and meaningful purpose
in the context of an organizationlike a company, you,
or a, you know, a public organization,
you know,is there a connection between the two?
And how important is that connection?
(37:52):
Most definitely.
If you think about this,unlocking the human spirit
in the service of whatever it iswe're doing in the organization,
that's the secret sauce.
And what, you know, what we often findin the development of character,
simple exercise we do under transcendence,trying to activate on transcendence,
(38:15):
which is being that purposeful,optimistic,
creative, futureoriented, appreciative, individual,
we ask, what's your
story yet to be written,for which you would be immensely proud?
And here it starts at the individual level
because, you know,sometimes we fear in organizations
(38:36):
what it is that ignites them.
And I and I can tell youthere is a common theme,
a common themethat comes down from a lot of,
the way people talk about
their sense of purpose is,working with others in the organization.
And we're hearing a lot.
I just was working with a bankthe other day
(38:57):
where their offense was cultivatingin the next generation of leaders
within their organization,this sense of possibility.
So this sort of mentoring,engaging and enabling
people are pretty fired up about that.
You know, it's the person to person stuff.
And then when we think sohow do we we're in a bank.
(39:18):
How are we going to serve,
our broad stakeholders?
You know what?
It's an easier thing to roll that upwhen you're caring about everybody
in the organization and you're going to,you know, all move in the same direction
to be able to, have that common purpose.
A lot easier to do.
So it's super important.
(39:39):
Character is a really big part of that.
I so love that sentiment of unlockthe human spirit.
And especially if you connect that backto competitive advantage theory,
like Herb Kelleher,the founder of Southwest Airlines,
one of the most case-studiedcompanies in business history, a business
journalist asked him, what's your ultimatecompetitive advantage?
(40:01):
And he said, mycompetitors can copy anything.
They can see supply chains, new ticketingsystem, they can copy all of that.
What they can't copyis that people really care,
and I don't want peopleto have to take 30 hour bus rides
to see the ones they love.
We should all be able to affordto fly, to fly.
And that fires people out like you.
Unlock the human spiritand you will create competitive advantage.
(40:24):
So it's quite rare.
You know, I and I teach, strategyin our executive MBA class, and I,
I use this case that I've writtenand it's just stands the test of time.
But people just love this particular case.
And it's talkingabout the transformation of,
to being an airline, of course,which is now defunct.
And it it follows a leader.
(40:45):
He's mid-level in the organizationover like a series of,
video case series of thingsthat he does through this period of time.
And, it's about a 10,000 personorganization.
And at the end of the case, I asked them
how many Eric, that's the guy's name.
Do you think it would taketo turn this organization around?
(41:08):
And theycome up with all sorts of numbers,
but they're usually around20 at least 25, 30, of them.
And then I ask, how many aredo you think they had?
And then I conclude, probably one
like his strength of character,competence and commitment.
We talk about thoseas three parts of a stool.
(41:29):
It's so we just don't have enough of that.
And, you know, really tryingto cultivate that in our organization,
as we say, elevate characteralongside competence is going to be
the place that gets to sustainablecompetitive advantage.
You know, it transforms our culture.
It transforms our strategy.
You know,it is such a winning combination.
(41:52):
It's such a, I knowwe're getting close to time
here,but sustainable competitive advantage.
We say it like it's so easy to attainand it's going to last forever.
And the payback is going to be amazing,particularly in the context
of some of the investments that we arecontemplating now, particularly in this
(42:13):
technology enabled AI world.
You know,these are big, massive investments.
There's no such thingas million dollar investments,
any more. There's a billion investmentand trillion dollar investments.
But sustainable competitive advantage,
you know, just pick up on your point, markand what you're talking about.
Mary.
We canwe can attain that in our organization,
(42:34):
whatever they are, a public, private,for profit, not for profit.
By tapping into that that spirit
that you speak about,I would say discretionary effort,
If you will informally,
you know, not organize per se,but informally in your organization.
And that's a relatively low cost.
At the end of the day,to those who are listening,
(42:57):
on this, to this podcast,what are the 2 or 3 things would,
would you sort of recommendto keep in mind to start building,
your character muscle,
for, for better outcomes?
Well,I think there's a lot in the public domain
that I think people can startto just avail themselves
(43:19):
of, like, learn, engage,spend some time in that.
You know, we wrote the book,
the character compass, that, that peoplecan kind of pick up and look at it.
But lots of these articles that I've justmentioned throughout the podcast.
So LinkedIn, you know, on LinkedIn,if people
look at the thingsthat that I'm putting out,
(43:41):
I'm trying to channel a lot of thewriting, that we have create conversation
about this and connect with othersin the world that are also doing this.
How important is it to developyour own character and or inspire
the character of others, of buildingthe character of others, of being
in the
(44:01):
in the moment, in the in person,if you will,
demonstration first hand apprenticeship,
you know, tacklingsome of the issues that you know all too
well with your experience of what we facein organizations are we are we putting,
it's just an old way of thinking
or a dinosaur way of thinkingthat it's better done in person.
(44:24):
Or are you a believer that we can do thisvirtually and through the likes
of social media and the like,or I, I probably guess that you're going
to say it's a balance between the two,but have you got some thoughts on that?
I'm a big believer
that in the for sureyou pick up on the and side of things.
(44:44):
But there's no to me
the diminishment
about being able to do this in scale
through technology, through
you know, virtual engagement.
And here's a piecewe haven't talked about, which is really,
I think, interesting isthat character is fundamentally
(45:05):
something, about trust
with the development of character.
We trust people's judgment,
you know, and I'm assuming,you know, competence is stable pitch,
table stakes.
But we we trust they have the courageto step up to issues.
We trust
they have the transcendenceto see, possibility, trust.
They have humanity to hear us.
(45:26):
And I think it cuts through,
the space like I, you know,I look at you guys and,
you know,you see this, this moment of connection.
We trust one another.
We can have a conversationthat's unfiltered about things.
You know,
I don't I don'tnecessarily be fun to be at the table.
(45:46):
But we don't have to be at the table.
And I do think it's fun to create theopportunities where we are at the table.
You know, I think we really enjoythose experiences when we when we're live.
But why not embrace the possibilitiesthat exist for us to,
you know, connectwith people around the world
and don'tlet the technology rob us of our humanity,
(46:09):
because I think that'swhat we think happens when we're face
to face, that we willsomehow be more have more humanity.
But I think we can still havea lot of strength in our humanity
over, a virtual, situation.
And it makes a huge differencethat I'm looking at you here
and you're looking at me, as well,as opposed to behind
(46:30):
that anonymous post or whateverthe case may be, to do that.
But you touched on trust.
Unfortunately, we don't have another 2or 3 hours to talk about that.
But I mean that I think that's integral toa lot of what we're talking about today.
How are we going to take this newly formedcharacter
muscle outand have an impact that matters?
(46:53):
These are Deloitte phases.
They had to, you know,to make the systems, communities,
countries, globe, planet a better place.
You know, that's all underpinned by trust.
And we've got that's, as I said,that's another that's another episode
and something that I think trust is fasttracked.
Fast tracked, by being in person,to be able to do that.
(47:16):
But, Mike, any parting wisdom on
if I wanted to be more purposefulas an organization
that you would share with the audienceon how they can start tomorrow?
Wisdom to high bar.
I'm not sure I'll reach that, but,
I thinkjust appreciating the profound opportunity
of this momentwe're in. In times of plenty and times
(47:39):
when things are good,people just want more of what's there.
And there's abundant survey data,especially among the younger generations.
Autistic peopledon't like the way the world is headed,
and people will look to leadersand the character of leaders
and the actions of leaders,and the conviction of
leaders to say, well that person over thereseems to think that there's a better world
(48:00):
that's available to us.
Maybe we'll cohere and behind that person.
The market opportunity forthat is immense.
Well, Mike, Mary, I want more.
But that's all we have time for today.
Thank you both, for for joining us.
And listen, stay tuned, for our wrap up.
(48:22):
Thank you both again.
Thank you.
It's been great chatting with both of you.
Fascinating conversation.
What did you learn today?
I think the sheer criticality of it, like
for most of us, whether it's businessor leadership or just going through life,
(48:43):
we put things into, oh, it's kind of niceto have or that's mission critical.
I think it's easy to look at this subjectand go, yeah, you know, I'll get to a
that's a nice thing to do.
When you look at the pattern,whether it's personal well-being,
leading a fulfilled life,
walking through lifewhen there's turbulence around you
and you actually havea spring in your step
because you're comfortablewith who you are and the person,
(49:05):
whether it's on a personal level
or an organizational level,this is this the thing.
So it's not nice to have like put itin the mission critical and get to work.
I love that and mission critical and, and
we know
we know that so many of us strugglefrom time to time.
And maybe it's because of the the apathythat we talked about or we kicked the
(49:27):
we deprioritized it because there's other,more immediate, important things to do.
But there's nothing more important
than getting this rightand starting on this and recognizing,
yeah, recognizing that it's not, you know,you're not going to be perfect at this.
So you're going to it's a commitment,which in itself is a character.
Entirely. And I think it's probablya little daunting,
(49:50):
a little intimidating as a subjectbecause it's not pragmatic.
Like we have metaphors aroundbetter angels of our nature,
a more perfect union.
What's your North Star?
But if you like, just do the work andget in there and find yourself an answer.
It doesn't matter that the answer isgood enough for somebody else.
Just find an answerthat's good for you. Just.
And it'll start to happen.
(50:10):
Just a step forward. Yeah.
That is the reward in and of itself,I think.
And, like to me,I'm empowered and inspired by the fact
it's all within your control.
Yeah, you can and you can do it. And,
you can influence your progress forward.
And you should celebratemovements forward.
(50:33):
But to me, that's very empowering, right?
Start with yourselfand it'll permeate around others.
I had like a it was an epiphany momentfor me in this particular conversation
where, like we talk about, it's importantfor leaders to be vulnerable.
And I don't thinkwe've actually given much depth
to what what do you mean by that?
And like, for me, it was yes.
The admirable stuff is easy
(50:55):
to it's not easy, but it's the stuffwe want to institutionalize.
But then we kind ofwant to put in a closet the deficiencies.
And that's the vulnerability, right?
Like,I don't think Michael Jordan or Steve Jobs
like there's not illegal stuff there,but their shortcomings.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you can be vulnerable and say,you know,
I have to beI'm motivated by the envy of others
(51:16):
because I was a bit of the MichaelJordan thing.
I think that's that becomesthe thing to be vulnerable.
Yeah.
They know that vulnerability, humility.
You know, I'm not perfect. You. Yeah.
Well, who is,
with that?
The one thing,
Mike, you know, to leave the listenerswith.
(51:37):
To me, it is that
I say it's market opportunity,but it's also market obligation.
You have a choice to be a part of the way
things were today,or part of the way things could be.
That all startswith a leader in the character.
You want to bring about the.
Love of that, the what could be
(51:58):
and not get so boxed into what is.
Yeah.
I think is, something that we gottaall collectively break away from the
those shackles and,
build that society,that country, humanity.
And for how we would like to be.
Be idealistic again.
And thank you, Mike.
(52:19):
Thank you, AV.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony Viel, an original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
Rate and reviewthis series on Apple Podcasts.
And if you haven't already, don't
forget to subscribe to Full Circleon your favorite podcast platform.
Unlocking the human spirit in the serviceof whatever
it is we're doing in the organization.
That's the secret sauce.
Welcome
to this episode of Full Circle,a show where we confront Canada's pressing
challenges and societal issuesalongside this country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Viel, and I'mthe CEO of Deloitte Canada and Chile.
(00:24):
On this episode,we're asking the question,
what is the role of personal characterin changing the world?
I had the honorof speaking with Mary Crossan,
a distinguished university professorand professor
of strategic leadership at WesternUniversity's Ivy Business School.
She is renowned for extensive researchon organizational learning,
(00:45):
strategy, leadership, characterand improvization, with a recent focus
on the development of leader characteras a foundation for effective leadership.
She's also a co-founder of the Questionof Character podcast series
and has coauthored several influentialbooks, including Strategic Analysis
and Action Developing Leadership,Character, and The Character Compass.
(01:09):
Joining me also is
co-host is MikeRobitaille, the lead partner of Deloitte,
Isaac Canada'sfirst and only purpose and momentum group.
Mike is an authorityon organizational purpose
with a deep expertisein how leadership can drive
social change and influencebusiness and societal outcomes.
Let's get started.
(01:37):
Hello.
I'm thrilled to be here with youboth that I welcome to Full Circle.
Let's, let's turn to Mary.
Yeah.
So, Mary, one of the things I think isfascinating is a bit of a why now?
The Good Place.
I don't knowif you've watched that on Netflix.
You know, here's a sitcom that's talkingabout Kant and Nietzsche and Aristotle.
(01:57):
It seems as though,if you will, character is having a moment.
Why do you why do you think that is?
I think there's been a lot of attemptsover many, many years trying to find,
you know, solutions to problemsthat keep reoccurring.
And our first foray intoit was the '08,
global financial crisis,where we were trying to understand.
why did some firms really do poorly.
(02:21):
And it was at that time that for usthen we were discovering,
character as being a very central pieceabout why
some firms fail and othersand others do well.
When I was picking upand listening to you, as you started out,
I was also thinking, though,for the listeners to,
you know, pick up that there's a turnon character now that's different than,
(02:44):
I think,where, philosophers were taking us,
even though it's the most ancientarea of study.
It was brought into modern day workwith, psychologist,
Martin Seligmanand Christoph Peterson.
So as people begin to listen about this,thinking about it
as not just being about ethicsand being a good person,
(03:09):
but it is about sustainedexcellence and human flourishing.
So there's somethingthere's something bigger here
that I think we should be keepingin mind as we carry on.
Yeah,
we have one as one of our inspirations.
A quotation from Martin Seligman.
He said when a society is richand triumphant, its people
(03:30):
start to ask not justwhat can be had from it, from life,
but how can I live a lifethat's worth living?
And it seems like well-beingeven is an essential benefit
of undertaking this work.
It is a huge benefit.
You know, in this 24/7 social media,
(03:52):
on us with the turbulencethat we face in the world,
I often describe it as, you know,it's like,
your context is like a heavyweight boxercoming into the ring.
And when it comes to character,we're pretty lightweight.
We're going to get
knocked out all the time,and that's going to affect our well-being.
Right? That'swhere we're going to get burnout.
(04:12):
We get stressed.
We have people feelingthat they, you know,
are backed into a cornerabout things that they really can't,
do, the things that they've aspired to do.
So character becomes really very,very central in creating that agency
to handle the context that we're in.
(04:32):
And like meaningful work and well-being.
Like,those are the themes of the day for people
and in human resources,for people who lead a workforce.
And yet it does consistently strike melike in business.
We've been saying culture eatsstrategy for breakfast.
It's three decades of us
making that observation,but not getting much better at doing it.
(04:54):
Like,do you think this character and call it
the academic inquiry into this subject?
Can it be a solution to that?
Can it be an agent oflike really meaningful culture, really
fulfilling culture? Employee well-being?
I have to be as provocative is to sayit is the solution.
(05:15):
You know,my field is strategy, culture, learning.
I've spent 40 yearsat the Ivy Business School
looking and workingwith organizations in this space
and watching themstumble over many, many years.
And I think the issue iswhat we never really understood.
And we've got an articlethat's going to be coming out
in the next few months about how charactereats culture for breakfast,
(05:38):
because that's, you know,that has been the problem.
And when we think about culture,we describe it
as the culture of our organizationswill be a reflection
of the characterof the individuals within it.
So if we haven't really understoodwhat character is we,
we actually hardwireinto our organization.
(05:59):
I'm a big fan of thinking about culture,and we can really demystify
it by actually understanding culturethrough a character line.
Well, there's a rather famous outdoorapparel company,
and I won't say an actual brand name,but like a lot of companies
give time off to their workforceto recognize effort and mitigate burnout.
(06:23):
This particular company let its retailstaff have the time between Christmas
and New Year's off, which the act in itof itself probably, you know, nice.
You probably get a check mark.
But they said we're doing itbecause we want our staff to get outside.
We want them to get some dirt undertheir fingernails, spend time with family,
love the outdoors, and go, oh,that's why you're doing it.
(06:44):
Like you actually understand the characterthey're trying
that they're actively formalizing.
Well, I wanted to kind of pick up
on the idea that you're raising hereis the development of character
and its manifestation is, is is possible
everywhere, personally and professionally.
(07:05):
So even you know that active you know, whoare we becoming while we're busy doing?
Are we are we at our desks,you know, toiling away, transacting
through somethingthat we're not developing courage
and we're not developing accountabilityor, you know, maybe in this case,
you're actually outside and you're you'reyou're cultivating your transcendence
or you're cultivating, you know,some sense of possibility about things.
(07:29):
So, so the opportunity,I think, for individuals and organizations
to really be thinking about wewe can be cultivating character
while we do things and transformwhat we are doing in the process of that.
I know we'll get into this partof the conversation, but this is character
(07:50):
is something that, it's not a new thing,but it seems to be
a very popular, at present.
And from all the all that we've discussedso far.
The time is right. We need more of this.
I also
think about it in the context,and I don't know if you agree,
Mario Mark, but in the context of how
(08:12):
you as a leader come and, and make,
choices beyond the success of yourself,your organization.
But for the system and the communityof which you are an integral part of,
do you see charactersplaying a role in that sort
of higher order system level outcomes?
I certainly do.
(08:34):
I actually don't know how you do itwithout strengthening character.
And here's where I'll pick upon some things that I witnessed.
Watching watching leadersoperate the capacity
to think at that systems level.
It's not just systems thinking.
I mean, those are the things I would teachand, field of strategy.
(08:54):
But, when we think aboutmaybe systems being, how can I be somebody
who does that?
So, so we look at even,dimension of accountability.
Many people strugglejust with being accountable to themselves,
let alone asking them to be accountable
to the team,the organization or the system.
(09:16):
And, they don't they don't know.
It isn't just changing a mindsetis actually working
some muscles every single day.
That's strengthened that muscle ofaccountability so they can get to a point
where they're actually embracingsomething beyond themselves to a system.
And, and,and that is that's a big problem, right?
(09:36):
Because it isn't just us ina business school teaching people about,
socially responsible behavior or sustainability or systems thinking it is actually,
strengthening the
muscles of characterthat enable us to do that.
I'm very encouraged.
Mike, do you got anything to add?
Yeah.
Just so it's maybe a variationon the thinking, but like that
(09:58):
ripple effect pebble in a pond analogythat we enjoyed using.
And I'm going to mess up,
like a time honored quotation, butsomething along the lines of the ideals
we have for a good life, beliefswe have inform our words.
Words inform our actions.
Actions are our legacy.
I think you add another ringto that concentric circle.
(10:21):
It is, and your legacy can changeyour organization.
Your legacy can change a country early,but legacy can change a society.
But it starts with one person with abelief that we just might be better.
I love that you brought that one upbecause there is
this adapted quote,so we'll insert character into it.
Be mindful of your thoughts.They become your words.
(10:42):
Be mindful of your words.They become your actions.
Be mindful of your actions.
They become your habit.
Be mindful of your habits.
They become your character.
Be mindful of your characterbecomes your destiny.
And then that, you know, oftenwhen we're working in organizations
and we're thinking about that destiny,we're saying, so what has to change
in our character in order to foster
(11:07):
a new
thought, new words, new actions,new habits.
And that's those micro momentsof character that, you know,
I love the connection that you're raising.
They're around where is that destiny that,we can imagine?
Yeah.
I'm incredibly encouraged.
By the last couple of commentsin particular,
(11:29):
when we talk about this is,
well, I feel this is within our control.
Mary, you mentioned cultivating character,which implies
building muscle,which implies, hey, wait a second.
This is within my control,and I can do something about it, too,
as you sort of say, said before,you know, build on a legacy that,
that, that that has an enduring impact
(11:52):
on something much, much bigger than, youknow, an individual success, if you will.
Mary.
What what insight do you have forour audience around building this muscle?
Of of characteror cultivating character is, is there
any advice or
any, inspirationthat you can leave the audience with.
(12:13):
The underlying science on habitdevelopment and changing that?
There are a numberof really important condition.
First of all, the intention to developthe behavior is huge.
Many people have no ideaabout how character actually leads
to positive outcomes.
So we've got a fairbit on the educational front
(12:34):
to help people understandwhat character is and how it operate.
Having said that,there are other conditions.
What about our peer influence?
So I may know that,but if everybody around me
is not really cultivating those behaviors,it's going to be difficult.
If it's not the norms of the organization,it's not what we reward,
(12:54):
in the organization.
If it's not, something I believe I can do.
I haven't been given the toolsand the toolkit to be able
to work on the development of character.
It will undermine my development.
And then there'sthe actual exercise of it.
So there's a science around exercise.
You know,we don't just go out and run a marathon.
There's a there's a way that you gothrough progression and training.
(13:18):
So the thing I want to leavemaybe listeners with
is there arethere's a science about how to do this.
We know what character is.
We know how to develop it.
There are tools and techniques.
And so it's really just a matter ofI think as James
Clear started to talk about,if you want to go to the character gym,
the or the, in his case, the physical gym,first thing is put on your running shoes
(13:41):
and then you know you'll getyou'll get a step in the right direction.
I want to take this exercise analogyjust a little bit further.
If I may.
And it'sin the context of some of the things
that I've been reading upon, is this concept
of hiring for character.
And and the question, Mary would be like,
(14:04):
if you think about, an elite athlete,
we normally pick out the,
characteristics, like, you got to havethose characteristics to start with
before you go into your exerciseand you're training
to to become the best athletethat you can be.
I know that you've sort of shared with usthe notion
(14:24):
that we can all develop our character,which is terrific.
But in terms of making those changesand forming those habits
that you're talking about, do we get offto a good start as an organization,
corporationor otherwise, by by putting a lens
or a filter on those we bring intothe organization that already
(14:45):
have some grounding and characterthat's been, you know,
proven or attained through that life upuntil entering that organization.
Is that a folly or is that is itcould that be something,
that can accelerate your organizationor what your community you're part of
to having that characterimpacts, sooner rather than later?
(15:08):
Letting on
characteris one of the key cornerstones of,
mechanisms you can use in an organizationto start to change that culture.
Because if culture
is going to be a reflectionof the character of the individuals in it,
who you bring in matters,who you promote matters.
And I wrote a piece in, Sloan Management
Reviewtalking about selecting on character.
(15:30):
You talk about professional sports.
Now, the cool part about characteris the more organizations
become sophisticated about their capacityto develop character,
they know the gapsthat they could live with
in terms of imbalances in character,where somebody just
didn't really have the, the backgroundor the opportunity.
(15:52):
And they got these imbalances.
But under the right coaching,we could, you know, close those gaps.
Here's the tough part about it.
We do know how to select on character.
The real sticking point is
the development of character underpinsthe selection of character,
because otherwise you're relying onsomebody like me
(16:13):
who spends a lot of timein the development of character.
What we need to do in organizationsis have that groundswell
of people who are developing character
because when they are doing that,they can identify it in others.
It's, it's a great point.
And that, in that sense of,
you know, getting a fair where the teamor a fair where the organization
(16:38):
that as soon as the wind turns againstand we all fall apart.
But, Mary,you said something that intrigued me.
The rebalance, the rebalancing.
I've done a little bit of studying themnow where in
not even in your hemisphere, let alone
stratosphere of the experiencethat you have, but
and studied around the fullcardinal virtues and the importance
(16:59):
of having the four cardinal virtuesbalance.
And I think I'm hearing conceptuallythat similarly with character, where,
you know,we have over weighted some of those,
some of those elements of characterand neglected some others.
You know, I think you're expressingthe importance of balance.
(17:20):
It did.
Did I hear that right? Or is that.
You did hear that right?
And you know, to help people bridge,you know,
the connectionbetween virtues and character.
You know, what's very cool about what
Aristotle raised with respect to virtue
is that they can operate inand a deficient and an up state.
(17:40):
And that'swhere character begins to come in
where we can observe our character,we can describe our character, and
it can be operating in a deficient state,can be operating in an access state.
So the work we've done is to try to bring,
you know,some science around understanding
that some people are just making up ideasabout what character is.
(18:02):
Actually, that's what got us into trouble.
So virtues is the sort of idealistic statethat we want to be thinking about.
Character.
Is this really tangible, observablebehavior that we can think about
that can operate in a deficientor an excess state.
But at your point, Mary,if I'm interpreting odds with the science,
we can tell,
(18:23):
when we're operating in excess ordeficient, and we can alter with actions
to get back to the equilibriumthat we want for what is ostensibly lead
to high performance,whatever that transpires,
or by whatever measure that youthat you're putting performance under.
Yeah, that'sthat's right. And here, here is the,
(18:44):
the golden nugget of of the challenge.
And I've seen the lights go onand thousands of executives to like,
oh my gosh, you know, it's like, whoa,
we judge ourselves on our intentionsand others on their behavior.
So most of usbelieve we've got good character.
We judging ourselves on our intentions.
When it comes to character,it is about our observable behaviors.
(19:07):
So we want to be accountable to that.
And and yeah,even though we don't have intentions
to be dismissive or disrespectfulof somebody, our observable
behavior might be such that,you know, a group of, people in
the room would describe our behavioras having been disrespectful.
So we want to, first of all, own upto when it comes to character.
(19:30):
It's not just our intention that matters.
We want to be thinkingabout the observable behavior.
Now, the other problemis, and research shows, 85% of us
believe we're self aware and only 10% are.
So we have this big gap
about the fact that we don't really see
ourselves operating in the deficientor excess vice state.
(19:54):
And I have a, you know, the roadmapof the deficient and excess vices
sits right beside my computer,and it's a constant roadmap for me.
I think about it like, standing on abalance beam is the virtuous state.
And you're going to what's your lane?
Is it going to be leaning left,leaning right to the deficient or excess?
And recognizingthat there's always a lane?
(20:16):
I love that,I encourage leaders, in the organization
and outside the organizationto have those little prompts,
that little roadmapthat you, that you're talking about.
I mean, I wear them in my, rings and stuffjust to remind me of certain things
every day.
Because we arewe are human, and we are trying to walk
that fine line to better, to be better in.
(20:40):
And having that prompt thereor we mentioned exercise there
before as well, telling peoplethat we have been humble enough
to tell peoplethat we're trying to work on things,
putting up little prompts around you,whether it's in your bathroom mirror
or otherwise, to sort of continuallyremind you to what did you say, Mary?
To lean into a lean back towards,where the center is, I think is,
(21:05):
a wonderful and wonderful practice
that you can get into to, to,to get better in this, in this regard.
Well, you're actually picking up,
a fair biton the design of character development.
So, you know, the first stage we talkabout is just discovering character,
but the second stage is, is the exact onethat you're talking about.
(21:27):
How can you prime,remind and reinforce character?
So now that we begin to understand what itis, what is it that we're going to do?
And utilize the naturally availableresources around us?
Do we have this study that we worked onand we use it quite a
bit in our workshops?
How can we use music to activatecharacter?
We're often having music presentin our life, so how could we use it around
(21:51):
activating transcendence, or courageor drive or humility or humanity?
So we have a Spotify playliston all 11 dimensions of character
that has been cultivated by people aroundthe world who have contributed, music
that that activates for themon these dimensions of character.
So that second stage,there are five stages
(22:12):
that that second stage of activateis very important.
My concern aroundcharacter is trying to get individuals
and organizations beyond that,but that stuff is fairly easy to do.
How do we actually go to the charactergym, strengthen it,
you know, not just remind ourselves,but actually strengthen it?
Then we get to the fourth stage,which is connecting a character dimension
(22:36):
to other one.
So when I look at my weaknessesin temperance about being patient or calm,
a lot of times that isn't simplyabout becoming more patient and calm.
It's about strengthening my humanity,which might be realizing that,
you know,I get frustrated with somebody, you know,
and maybe that frustration would bediminished, which activates on my,
(22:59):
you know, lack of temperanceif I could increase my humanity.
And then the last stage is that itholds up across context and time
where we really need, you know, great
strength of character.
The thing that's also caught me is,
character
also exists in the quiet, in the boredom.
(23:20):
And I worry about thisin this world that we live in
where people have sort of retreated tonothing.
Yeah.
And, and that, you know, strengthening
character wouldn't allow us to do that
because our transcendenceand our courage and our drive gets it
gets us out of the apathyand the doldrums of,
(23:43):
you know,not believing that something is possible.
So I find character like it'sjust everywhere, right?
It's in the stress, but it's in the quiet.
It's in the it's in the nothingwhere we need, to be able to activate it.
I talk a lot,
to myself and with other leaders around,getting into that state of mind
where it is empty,so to speak, and and and you're I,
(24:06):
I'm hearing this is a warning therethat if you get into that state,
you've also got to be preparedto sort of lean into
maybe lean back to use that space to just
continue to build and strengthenyour character rather than atrophy.
Is is that a fair takeaway?
Mary. Yeah, it is a fair take away.
And, if people were to, you know, picturethe way we look at the
(24:30):
these 11 dimensions of characterjudgment is in the middle.
Aristotle called it that practical wisdom,
which means in your description,
you know,there's a fair bit around temperance
being patient and calm and self-regulatedthat that it is.
Isn't that kind of quality of being ableto still and be silent?
Our judgment is what helps us understandmoment to moment.
(24:54):
You know, how we activate on that.
And, and when we think about it, it'snot either or.
This is, I think, an important thing.
Well, a lot of work aroundcharacter is in the air and space.
And think about it in your own body.
You know, when I'm lifting the table, I'mnot thinking about what muscles
I'm activating.
They just have to be there, I push down,I use, I'm activating different muscles.
(25:17):
So we often just talk about,the development of character
is that you can be in stillness,but you can be out of stillness.
Right?
What is it you've cultivated to be ableto, you know, move
in that drive modebecause you need that result oriented.
But that might also be, accompanied by,the great temperance or patience,
(25:38):
the calm that allow you to movethrough something quickly.
On the strength part,the strengthening part.
You said the easy part is,
with the frame.
And I get this wrong.
But recognizing where to start,
what gets in our way,
of the strengthening part is that,
you know, is that apathy?
(25:59):
Is that is there anything elsethat we should be on the lookout
for as we, as we look to cultivateand build those muscles of character.
There, there are two, two big things.
One is any habit is tough to change.
So, I think anybody can kind of pickthat up as to why, whatever it is
they've tried to do,you know, learn, learn an instrument,
(26:23):
go to the gym, lose weight, stop smoking,you name it,
it's heart.
Character is no different.
So, we're trying to bring, science of habitdevelopment to specifically
to character development, to make it,recognize what it takes to move forward.
The second thing is pick up that on
(26:44):
any of those areasthat I just even talked about.
There is a science on a specific piecelike, cessation smoking.
I mean, there's a lot of science, right,about about smoking in particular, or
science about,
you know, how to, you know,
become a musician in some way.
(27:06):
So, I think what's gotten in the way aroundcharacters because people didn't know
what it was, they don't even knowwhat to do, to strengthen or develop it,
which is one of the reasonsthat we ended up developing the app.
Right, that we wantedto put in the hands of an individual
everything we know abouthow to develop character,
the fact that people may not have accessto that or may not do it.
(27:30):
What we also try to dois put out on social media
a lot of, frequentreminders of things that they can do,
because we know that actually learningto strengthen
a particular behavioris not difficult to do.
I was just working with Cory,my daughter, this morning on,
(27:51):
the strengthening behaviorsaround being passionate,
for example.
And, and it's fascinating.
Right? There's a science about about that.
And a lot of people have lost itor they've,
they don't know how to get or, strengthenthat passionate behavior.
So if we can put in their handsthe daily exercise
(28:14):
that they can learn about what that means,then they can
then start to take those steps towardsbecoming more passionate.
I was really struck by your suggestionof the importance of music
or the opportunity for musicas part of doing the work,
and I don't imagine I'm alone and,
if I do push ups to a soundtrack,whatever, I'll do a number.
(28:38):
But if you do it to the theme from Rocky,you invariably do more push.
Like to what extent?
You know, the connection between rolemodeling and the people we imagine
we can one day be better.
Like, is it a helpful thing?
Like, as you're reading books, as you'reconsuming movies like these people
that we regard as having heroic qualities,is it helpful
(28:58):
for us to actually say, that's kind ofsomething I'd I'd love to have in me?
Yes. Yeah.
So, it's a big part on round characterdevelopment.
We, we call it.
So noticing it in others.
And here's the key piece, I think, where
we've just not really understoodhow character operates.
So sometimes we
(29:20):
we valorize something that we mayor may not have.
So, I'll give you an example is, you know,
and it's not to denigrateany particular, leader.
But, you know, people will look at,
somebody like, Steve Jobs and I'll sayit, tremendous imbalances of character.
But I have seen thembeing quite successful
(29:43):
so often, our definitions of, well,what does success mean?
You know, then we look at that personas a role model.
But if we actually haven'tseen the imbalances of character,
we may be replicating the wrong thingsabout it.
We used, one of the videos,The Last Dance with, Michael Jordan,
(30:03):
and he himself will talk about,
the personal cost that he had,
where you can seehe's got some imbalances of character.
And we,
we look at had he been able to strengthensome of these other
dimensions of character, if his successmay not have come at the personal cost?
Same thing with Steve Jobs.
(30:24):
As we look at,we talk about it as episodes of leadership
and decision making.
There's a lot of episodeshe did not do very well.
And, you know,there are a lot of failures that he had.
And we would pick up thathad he actually been able to strengthen
some of his weakerdimensions of character,
we probably would have taken away the riskfactor
(30:45):
of, some of the weaker decisionsthat he made.
And that's prevalent in manyof our leaders that we see today at that.
Mary,I was smiling when you were saying that.
That's so true.
And I think that comes back to what we'retalking about earlier about humility.
A lot of these leadersthat we've idolized revitalize
for their contributionin a certain period of time,
(31:08):
notwithstanding those imbalancesthat you speak about and even worse,
after that period of time,we double down on those on those excess,
aspects of character, if you will.
Rather than the deficient, and,you know, it's almost like we,
we continue some of the deficiencieslong past.
(31:30):
So they should go and I won't go into,I won't go into,
any specific examples per se,other than to say
I really enjoy reading
works like the likes of Ryan Holiday,
who talks about the same person
in different stages.
(31:52):
Operating,
the way I think about itnow, after talking to you,
walk in that fine linebetween and rebalance and leaning back to
to walk that fine lineto build character, for the long haul.
But and maybe that's an opportunityfor leaders, though,
to like in looking at these conflictedleaders,
to actually, like, institutionalizethe admirable because there are aspects
(32:15):
of Steve Jobs that are going to definethat organization forever
and then work to remediatethe deficiencies.
But the institutionalizing
of the admirable is the opportunityfor all of today's leaders.
And, but I'm hearing from Mary and Mary
and, please correct me,
(32:36):
but if if we be taking the admirablemove forward
without recognizing the deficienciesand rectifying.
Now, that's a common mistakethat I think that that we make.
Yeah, that's right on.
And you know what's very cool about the,11 dimensions of character?
They are universal.
They stand across context, acrosstime, across sectors, entirely scalable.
(33:02):
It's not something you know it.
It's it's as applicable to your 15 yearold as to the 55 year old.
It's applicable in healthcare and finance.
It's applicable.
It is like the anatomyand physiology of the body.
So if we do understand that,we can say, well,
what was it we admired about Steve Jobs?
Tremendous, transcendent.
(33:22):
So we can we can observe that and,
and and learn from how did hehow did he get that?
Where did that come from?
And how might I cultivate that in myself?
But then we could pick up,oh, kind of weaknesses in humility.
I wonder where that why was that?
Why was that so hard for camp, you know,and then thinking
about for ourselves, well,what could we do to ward against that?
(33:45):
Maybe we look at another leaderwhere we say,
how is it that they were so successful?
And over this period of time,they always remained
with tremendous humility,about how they operate, which is a rarity.
I think you may both know the workof Collins on level five leadership. Yes.
Where? Right?
He talks about the factthat one of the scarcest things that
(34:08):
we've promoted many leaderswho actually eroded their humility
as they get to the top of the organizationand regaining
humility at that point is a lot harderthan.
Good luck keeping it along the way.
It's interesting you
said something, and I and,
even those leaders, the levelfive leaders, you mentioned, their columns
(34:30):
or the ones that we thinkthat got it right.
I bet you put them on a podcast like this
and asked them that they would not thinkthat they've done it right.
And I think that that's a lessonto all of us to say,
you know, if you think you've done it all
right with the utmost character,
you made no mistakesfrom strategic perspective.
(34:52):
You're already on your own dissolute.
You know, you're delusional. Right?
So, I think that that that it's a statethat we can get closer and closer to.
We can stay there for longer and longerwith, with some of the,
some of the encouragements, Mary,that you've given us.
But, you know, it's it's it'swe're always going to be seeking,
(35:14):
to get even even closer.
We'll never get thereand be able to declare victory.
Yeah. This work is never done. No. Yeah.
I love that.
You're right on.
It's a lifelong journey.
Character development.
And it's a constantthinking about it, right?
It, you know, as you're pushingand developing even more transcendence
and more courage, you need more temperanceand even more humanity.
(35:39):
I think we've just underestimatedthe possibility.
I certainly did, it's been,you know, good 15 years
now that I've been workingand dedicated to this space.
And I had no idea the depth
that one could keep
working on the development of character,over that space of time.
(36:01):
And I think it's it's it's, that's wherethe, connection to physical exercise,
weakens because there is no limitto what you can do physically.
There's a limit to,
the time that you put
into physical exercise character.
It's always abouthow do we transform every moment
of the day in a more positive way.
(36:25):
And we think about it's that spacebetween stimulus and response.
Are we just transacting through it,
or are we actually working onboth the development of our character
and the activation of our character tochange the quality of our conversations?
Right to change and think about whatwe're setting priority on,
how we imagine things different,how we collaborate, how
(36:47):
we cut through the red tape about things,how do we, cut through noise
and in the process,find ourselves, at the end of the day,
not entirely depleted by, you know,I got nothing left
but actually energized
by the the work that we did that day.
And that's that's the secret, isn't it?
(37:07):
And that's what leads me to,
a question I want to put on
the table here about thismeaning and purpose
and suchthat you can get to the end of that day.
And we've all felt it, I'm sure,
maybe once, maybe many times.
But you get to the end and you just
you are full of energy, yetyou've got no more to give, so to speak.
(37:31):
Because of what you've been ableto find that meaning and purpose.
When you think about Mary,leader character and meaningful purpose
in the context of an organizationlike a company, you,
or a, you know, a public organization,
you know,is there a connection between the two?
And how important is that connection?
(37:52):
Most definitely.
If you think about this,unlocking the human spirit
in the service of whatever it iswe're doing in the organization,
that's the secret sauce.
And what, you know, what we often findin the development of character,
simple exercise we do under transcendence,trying to activate on transcendence,
(38:15):
which is being that purposeful,optimistic,
creative, futureoriented, appreciative, individual,
we ask, what's your
story yet to be written,for which you would be immensely proud?
And here it starts at the individual level
because, you know,sometimes we fear in organizations
(38:36):
what it is that ignites them.
And I and I can tell youthere is a common theme,
a common themethat comes down from a lot of,
the way people talk about
their sense of purpose is,working with others in the organization.
And we're hearing a lot.
I just was working with a bankthe other day
(38:57):
where their offense was cultivatingin the next generation of leaders
within their organization,this sense of possibility.
So this sort of mentoring,engaging and enabling
people are pretty fired up about that.
You know, it's the person to person stuff.
And then when we think sohow do we we're in a bank.
(39:18):
How are we going to serve,
our broad stakeholders?
You know what?
It's an easier thing to roll that upwhen you're caring about everybody
in the organization and you're going to,you know, all move in the same direction
to be able to, have that common purpose.
A lot easier to do.
So it's super important.
(39:39):
Character is a really big part of that.
I so love that sentiment of unlockthe human spirit.
And especially if you connect that backto competitive advantage theory,
like Herb Kelleher,the founder of Southwest Airlines,
one of the most case-studiedcompanies in business history, a business
journalist asked him, what's your ultimatecompetitive advantage?
(40:01):
And he said, mycompetitors can copy anything.
They can see supply chains, new ticketingsystem, they can copy all of that.
What they can't copyis that people really care,
and I don't want peopleto have to take 30 hour bus rides
to see the ones they love.
We should all be able to affordto fly, to fly.
And that fires people out like you.
Unlock the human spiritand you will create competitive advantage.
(40:24):
So it's quite rare.
You know, I and I teach, strategyin our executive MBA class, and I,
I use this case that I've writtenand it's just stands the test of time.
But people just love this particular case.
And it's talkingabout the transformation of,
to being an airline, of course,which is now defunct.
And it it follows a leader.
(40:45):
He's mid-level in the organizationover like a series of,
video case series of thingsthat he does through this period of time.
And, it's about a 10,000 personorganization.
And at the end of the case, I asked them
how many Eric, that's the guy's name.
Do you think it would taketo turn this organization around?
(41:08):
And theycome up with all sorts of numbers,
but they're usually around20 at least 25, 30, of them.
And then I ask, how many aredo you think they had?
And then I conclude, probably one
like his strength of character,competence and commitment.
We talk about thoseas three parts of a stool.
(41:29):
It's so we just don't have enough of that.
And, you know, really tryingto cultivate that in our organization,
as we say, elevate characteralongside competence is going to be
the place that gets to sustainablecompetitive advantage.
You know, it transforms our culture.
It transforms our strategy.
You know,it is such a winning combination.
(41:52):
It's such a, I knowwe're getting close to time
here,but sustainable competitive advantage.
We say it like it's so easy to attainand it's going to last forever.
And the payback is going to be amazing,particularly in the context
of some of the investments that we arecontemplating now, particularly in this
(42:13):
technology enabled AI world.
You know,these are big, massive investments.
There's no such thingas million dollar investments,
any more. There's a billion investmentand trillion dollar investments.
But sustainable competitive advantage,
you know, just pick up on your point, markand what you're talking about.
Mary.
We canwe can attain that in our organization,
(42:34):
whatever they are, a public, private,for profit, not for profit.
By tapping into that that spirit
that you speak about,I would say discretionary effort,
If you will informally,
you know, not organize per se,but informally in your organization.
And that's a relatively low cost.
At the end of the day,to those who are listening,
(42:57):
on this, to this podcast,what are the 2 or 3 things would,
would you sort of recommendto keep in mind to start building,
your character muscle,
for, for better outcomes?
Well,I think there's a lot in the public domain
that I think people can startto just avail themselves
(43:19):
of, like, learn, engage,spend some time in that.
You know, we wrote the book,
the character compass, that, that peoplecan kind of pick up and look at it.
But lots of these articles that I've justmentioned throughout the podcast.
So LinkedIn, you know, on LinkedIn,if people
look at the thingsthat that I'm putting out,
(43:41):
I'm trying to channel a lot of thewriting, that we have create conversation
about this and connect with othersin the world that are also doing this.
How important is it to developyour own character and or inspire
the character of others, of buildingthe character of others, of being
in the
(44:01):
in the moment, in the in person,if you will,
demonstration first hand apprenticeship,
you know, tacklingsome of the issues that you know all too
well with your experience of what we facein organizations are we are we putting,
it's just an old way of thinking
or a dinosaur way of thinkingthat it's better done in person.
(44:24):
Or are you a believer that we can do thisvirtually and through the likes
of social media and the like,or I, I probably guess that you're going
to say it's a balance between the two,but have you got some thoughts on that?
I'm a big believer
that in the for sureyou pick up on the and side of things.
(44:44):
But there's no to me
the diminishment
about being able to do this in scale
through technology, through
you know, virtual engagement.
And here's a piecewe haven't talked about, which is really,
I think, interesting isthat character is fundamentally
(45:05):
something, about trust
with the development of character.
We trust people's judgment,
you know, and I'm assuming,you know, competence is stable pitch,
table stakes.
But we we trust they have the courageto step up to issues.
We trust
they have the transcendenceto see, possibility, trust.
They have humanity to hear us.
(45:26):
And I think it cuts through,
the space like I, you know,I look at you guys and,
you know,you see this, this moment of connection.
We trust one another.
We can have a conversationthat's unfiltered about things.
You know,
I don't I don'tnecessarily be fun to be at the table.
(45:46):
But we don't have to be at the table.
And I do think it's fun to create theopportunities where we are at the table.
You know, I think we really enjoythose experiences when we when we're live.
But why not embrace the possibilitiesthat exist for us to,
you know, connectwith people around the world
and don'tlet the technology rob us of our humanity,
(46:09):
because I think that'swhat we think happens when we're face
to face, that we willsomehow be more have more humanity.
But I think we can still havea lot of strength in our humanity
over, a virtual, situation.
And it makes a huge differencethat I'm looking at you here
and you're looking at me, as well,as opposed to behind
(46:30):
that anonymous post or whateverthe case may be, to do that.
But you touched on trust.
Unfortunately, we don't have another 2or 3 hours to talk about that.
But I mean that I think that's integral toa lot of what we're talking about today.
How are we going to take this newly formedcharacter
muscle outand have an impact that matters?
(46:53):
These are Deloitte phases.
They had to, you know,to make the systems, communities,
countries, globe, planet a better place.
You know, that's all underpinned by trust.
And we've got that's, as I said,that's another that's another episode
and something that I think trust is fasttracked.
Fast tracked, by being in person,to be able to do that.
(47:16):
But, Mike, any parting wisdom on
if I wanted to be more purposefulas an organization
that you would share with the audienceon how they can start tomorrow?
Wisdom to high bar.
I'm not sure I'll reach that, but,
I thinkjust appreciating the profound opportunity
of this momentwe're in. In times of plenty and times
(47:39):
when things are good,people just want more of what's there.
And there's abundant survey data,especially among the younger generations.
Autistic peopledon't like the way the world is headed,
and people will look to leadersand the character of leaders
and the actions of leaders,and the conviction of
leaders to say, well that person over thereseems to think that there's a better world
(48:00):
that's available to us.
Maybe we'll cohere and behind that person.
The market opportunity forthat is immense.
Well, Mike, Mary, I want more.
But that's all we have time for today.
Thank you both, for for joining us.
And listen, stay tuned, for our wrap up.
(48:22):
Thank you both again.
Thank you.
It's been great chatting with both of you.
Fascinating conversation.
What did you learn today?
I think the sheer criticality of it, like
for most of us, whether it's businessor leadership or just going through life,
(48:43):
we put things into, oh, it's kind of niceto have or that's mission critical.
I think it's easy to look at this subjectand go, yeah, you know, I'll get to a
that's a nice thing to do.
When you look at the pattern,whether it's personal well-being,
leading a fulfilled life,
walking through lifewhen there's turbulence around you
and you actually havea spring in your step
because you're comfortablewith who you are and the person,
(49:05):
whether it's on a personal level
or an organizational level,this is this the thing.
So it's not nice to have like put itin the mission critical and get to work.
I love that and mission critical and, and
we know
we know that so many of us strugglefrom time to time.
And maybe it's because of the the apathythat we talked about or we kicked the
(49:27):
we deprioritized it because there's other,more immediate, important things to do.
But there's nothing more important
than getting this rightand starting on this and recognizing,
yeah, recognizing that it's not, you know,you're not going to be perfect at this.
So you're going to it's a commitment,which in itself is a character.
Entirely. And I think it's probablya little daunting,
(49:50):
a little intimidating as a subjectbecause it's not pragmatic.
Like we have metaphors aroundbetter angels of our nature,
a more perfect union.
What's your North Star?
But if you like, just do the work andget in there and find yourself an answer.
It doesn't matter that the answer isgood enough for somebody else.
Just find an answerthat's good for you. Just.
And it'll start to happen.
(50:10):
Just a step forward. Yeah.
That is the reward in and of itself,I think.
And, like to me,I'm empowered and inspired by the fact
it's all within your control.
Yeah, you can and you can do it. And,
you can influence your progress forward.
And you should celebratemovements forward.
(50:33):
But to me, that's very empowering, right?
Start with yourselfand it'll permeate around others.
I had like a it was an epiphany momentfor me in this particular conversation
where, like we talk about, it's importantfor leaders to be vulnerable.
And I don't thinkwe've actually given much depth
to what what do you mean by that?
And like, for me, it was yes.
The admirable stuff is easy
(50:55):
to it's not easy, but it's the stuffwe want to institutionalize.
But then we kind ofwant to put in a closet the deficiencies.
And that's the vulnerability, right?
Like,I don't think Michael Jordan or Steve Jobs
like there's not illegal stuff there,but their shortcomings.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you can be vulnerable and say,you know,
I have to beI'm motivated by the envy of others
(51:16):
because I was a bit of the MichaelJordan thing.
I think that's that becomesthe thing to be vulnerable.
Yeah.
They know that vulnerability, humility.
You know, I'm not perfect. You. Yeah.
Well, who is,
with that?
The one thing,
Mike, you know, to leave the listenerswith.
(51:37):
To me, it is that
I say it's market opportunity,but it's also market obligation.
You have a choice to be a part of the way
things were today,or part of the way things could be.
That all startswith a leader in the character.
You want to bring about the.
Love of that, the what could be
(51:58):
and not get so boxed into what is.
Yeah.
I think is, something that we gottaall collectively break away from the
those shackles and,
build that society,that country, humanity.
And for how we would like to be.
Be idealistic again.
And thank you, Mike.
(52:19):
Thank you, AV.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony Viel, an original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
Rate and reviewthis series on Apple Podcasts.
And if you haven't already, don't
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