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May 22, 2025 47 mins

“Build, baby, build”: Rethinking Canada’s backbone.

Canada has long relied on a North-South economic model dominated by trade with the U.S.—but what happens when that foundation threatens to fracture? In this episode, we go beyond the mantra of East-West to explore what that might actually look like in practical terms and what it will take to pull it off.  The question isn’t whether Canada can become more self-sufficient—but how?

 

With guests Christine Healy, President & CEO Northland Power and Andrew Botterill, National Lead, Strategy Risk & Transactions, Energy Resources & Industrials, Deloitte Canada

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are genuine and reflect the guest's views; the guest is also a client of Deloitte Canada.

 

A French transcript of this episode can be read here: https://deloi.tt/4mtksaR

 

***

 

« Construire, bébé, construire » : Repenser le pilier du Canada.

Le Canada s'est longtemps appuyé sur un modèle économique Nord-Sud dominé par le commerce avec les États-Unis - mais que se passe-t-il lorsque cette fondation risque de se fissurer ? Dans cet épisode, nous allons au-delà du mantra Est-Ouest pour explorer ce à quoi cela pourrait ressembler en termes pratiques et ce qu'il faudra faire pour y parvenir.  La question n'est pas de savoir si le Canada peut devenir plus autosuffisant, mais comment.

 

Avec des invités Christine Healy, présidente et cheffe de la direction, Northland Power et Andrew Botterill, leader, Stratégie, Gestion des risques et Opérations, Énergie, ressources et produits industriels, Deloitte Canada

Clause de non-responsabilité ; Les opinions exprimées sont authentiques et reflètent le point de vue de l'invité ; l'invité est également un client de Deloitte Canada. 

 

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
This is Full Circle, the flagshippodcast from Deloitte, Canada, and this
season we're doing something different.
We've handed the mic to Edward Greenspon,co-chair of the Future of Canada Center,
former editor and chief of the Globeand Mail, and President of the Public
Policy Forum for a special six series.At a time of rising global tensions

(00:27):
economic uncertainty andpolitical disruption
Ed is talking to a stellar cast ofguests on the front lines and asking
what Canada can do to leap ahead.
We're calling it The Leapfrog Series.
Here's Ed.
Hi everyone.
I am Ed Greenspan, and I amdelighted to be with you today.

(00:51):
As you've heard, this is TheLeapfrog Series of full circle.
Why leapfrog?
Well, many people have been talkingabout how Canada has been suffering for
a long time from boiling frog syndrome.
The phenomena that the economygets worse so gradually that
nobody takes much note of it.
Suddenly one day the frogs did.

(01:11):
Without ever having reactedto the danger around it.
It so happens though, that with theevents of the past few months, the
frog now is actually fully awake,and so the question becomes not
what opportunities did we miss?
That isn't terribly helpful anymore,but what opportunities can we
act on in the current situation?

(01:33):
In other words, what does it take toturn the boiling frog into a leapfrog?
Is there a constructiveand actionable agenda?
And what will it take forCanada to come out of this more
sovereign and more prosperous?
So today we're gonna welcome twoguests of the program to talk about
leapfrogging and particularly to talkabout it in it East-West context.

(01:55):
An idea we're hearing more and moreabout as opposed to North-South.
Christine Healy is a lawyer, economist,and veteran energy executive.
She's pretty well done
it all seen it all.
Christine is currently president andCEO of Northland Power, a global clean
power producer headquartered in Toronto.
Before joining Northland, she workedin Canada and Europe as an executive

(02:17):
for TotalEnergies, one of the largestintegrated energy companies in the world.
Andre Botterill is the Energy, resourcesand industrials leader for strategy,
risk, and transactions at Deloitte Canada.
So I am so delighted to have both ofyou here on this inaugural episode
of Full Circle, The Leapfrog Series.

(02:39):
Well, Ed, thank you so much.
I am honored to be a part ofthis inaugural episode, and
I will say it's timely andimportant that we talk about this.
So thank you very much for the invitation.
Yeah.
Thank you very much Ed as well.
I'm pretty humbled with Christine hereand I, I can't wait to touch on some of
her background in both Canada and uh,internationally as well and what that

(03:02):
means for Canada and how we, how welook at ourselves in the global sector, so.
Well, obviously Canadaneeds ideas right now.
It needs to, you know, thinkthrough how it can respond.
So I'm hoping this conversationwill help us on that.
But lemme just
go backwards for a moment,Christine, with you.
So, on January 20th, 2025, most of us werewatching Donald Trump's um, inauguration

(03:24):
as President of the United States,but I think you had a particularly
busy day, I suspect on January 20th.
So.
Maybe just tell us alittle bit about that.
Yes.
Well it seems like Mr. Trump andI are on the same timeline, but
fortunately for me, I've had a lotless press in my first a 100 days.
But I started at that timeas CEO of Northland Power.

(03:45):
So I was really happy to return toCanada and even happier to lead this
company and, uh, move at the forefrontof what's happening in energy in Canada.
So I'm really excited tobe back in my home country.
OK, so you and Trump started onthe same day in your, uh,
respective presidencies and, um
tell us a little bit about Northland andhow, if at all, he's affected your agenda.

(04:08):
So Northland Power is an independentpower producer based here in Canada.
Uh, we produce electricity from avariety of sources, so onshore wind,
Offshore wind, uh, solar.
We just, uh, had our first batteryproject, uh, fourth largest in the world.
First of its kind in Canada,largest in Canada, and that just,

(04:30):
uh, came on production this week.
So exciting.
Now we're in batteries too,and we do gas fired power.
And so we're active in 10 countriesaround the world in terms of,
uh, electricity generation andoperation of electricity generation.
Okay.
So that, uh, gives you a good windowand your previous window, you know,
was, well, when you hear the ideaof East-West, like what comes to

(04:52):
mind, uh, first for you, Christine?
Well, I think Ed,
the challenge we have in Canada isthat we do have this very, very large
economy immediately to our South,and we've created a lot of trading
corridors that have been North-Southwith good reason. Because we have a really
large, uh, very, uh, good customer.
Historically, good customeron the southern border.

(05:12):
So we have a lot of connections thatwe have made North-South, but in
many ways it means that we have, uh,neglected some of our opportunities
within our own country and the set ofopportunities beyond that relationship.
I think certainly having worked aroundthe world in many different countries, uh
you see internationally much moreof an international perspective.

(05:34):
And I would say, uh, that's not justin terms of business, it's also in
terms of media and news and perspectiveon what's happening in the world.
Returning to Canada, and we were abroadas a family for more than a decade, I
would say, returning to Canada, I'm a bitsurprised at how much we talk about the
United States and very little in termsof news from elsewhere in the world.

(05:57):
And, um.
I don't remember it always being thatway when I was growing up, but I do
think that it's something Canada usedto be much more internationally focused,
and I think there is an opportunitynow that we need to return to that.
It's great that the United Statesis there as a, an opportunity for
Canadian businesses, but there's awhole other world out there and, uh,
Canada has a lot of, uh, opportunity.

(06:20):
outside of the United States.
Andrew, how about you?
Like, when, you know, when you thinkEast-West, which is of course a big part
of the, uh, of the policy discussionnow, you know, what comes to mind?
What sort of things, you know,benefits are there out there in,
in more East-West orientation?
I, I love Christine's comments and thefact that we've almost over rotated in

(06:42):
the last little while on, on feedingthat, that that large customer to the
South, and I know decisions and how webuild our businesses are, are really
demand led and demand fueled, so to speak.
And, and we've had this large consumerto the South of us that I think
took up the first and second priorityin most businesses and where they were
going to invest because we had a, a hungrycustomer, so to speak, right, South of us.

(07:07):
And as we did that, I think we, weforgot to look at our own growth.
We forgot to look at our own prosperity,the ability to invest in, in Canada
to add value added infrastructure.
Not just send, you know, our unrefinedproducts to the South, but what
are the other things that we canreally do to, to drive our own

(07:28):
our own demand here in Canada, and I,and I recognize we're not the size,
uh, as population and as a consumptionthat we are, uh, to the South.
And I think that disproportionately, um,attracts capital and attracts projects
that kind of feed that demand beast.
But I think we need to recognize that
that isn't gonna, isn't gonnanecessarily build, uh, the feedback

(07:51):
loops into the Canadian context andinto our GDP and to our productivity
that I think we really need to do.
So maybe disproportionatelywe need to spend more time.
Yes, we're gonna feed a largedemand customer to the South, but
we need to diversify our portfolio.
We need to think about investingdifferently, and maybe we need to
put more of a mind to appreciate

(08:12):
our demand may not be as large,but that demand is important
because it, it creates
other productivityopportunities in Canada.
And there's that, the multiplierson the project, it isn't about the
individual barrel that goes, but it'salso all the ancillary businesses
that get built up in Canada andjobs and growth and productivity.
And so, um, maybe we need torecognize that the, the business

(08:35):
case, so to speak, of some of thestuff that we're doing is more to us
if we focus on beyond that first customerand think to some of the extra growth and
some of the extra opportunity for capital.
So Andrew, I agree with that, but I wouldsort of think about it, I guess I think
about it in a slightly different way.
If we can really use this opportunity
as you know, Ed, youreferenced the Leapfrog,
if we can really use this as theleapfrog moment, I think there's

(08:58):
three tranches of opportunities.
One, you know, we've spent
almost my entire adult lifetalking about how we want to reduce
interprovincial trade barriers in Canada.
I mean, I, I cannot count the numberof times people have talked about that.
There must be literally thousands ofpages of white papers written about that.
Can we just get on with it?
Can we just do it?
There are so many foolish small thingsthat we do, uh, from transportation

(09:21):
to, uh, the way that we move equipmentto just, uh, even the way that we
interact with one another.
It just makes no sense to me.
So, uh, you know, we've, hopefullynow we have a moment where we're
all aligned on this, but let's getrid of the interprovincial trade
barriers and actually start makingit make sense in Canada that we
have this East-West connection.

(09:41):
So that's.
Tranche one.
I think tranche two is, you know,we do have this great big potential
customer to the South of us, and I thinkit would be foolish to ignore that.
At the same time, I think any business,if you find that you have one customer
for 90 plus percent of your product,then you're probably put yourself
in a bit of a risky situation.
So then diversification of yourcustomer base is important.

(10:03):
So of course, maintain yourrelationship as tranche two
we need to, you know,
our relationship with the United Statesis extremely important in Canada.
Blinding statement of the obvious.
So we need to make surethat we work on that,
we repair that, we make it as goodas it can be, and certainly we need
to take accountability for the piecesof that where we can be better and
of course have continual dialoguebecause we, we have expectations

(10:26):
of them as our trading partner too.
So that continues.
We need a good relationship with the US.
But then the third trancheis international, you know,
where are those markets thatwe can and should be growing?
And I think that we have some good,uh, support systems in place in Canada
to actually encourage that activity.
So then, you know, where are theleaders in the businesses who

(10:47):
are gonna drive that forward?
It's one of the reasons I came toNorthland is because Northland
is active around the world.
And that international aspect of theoperations is really compelling for me.
And I find in many of the countriesthat we're operating in, there are very
welcoming arms for Canadian companies.
They like the way that we do business.
They like the way that we interact.

(11:07):
There is in many ways a bit of anopen field for Canadian businesses who
are looking to move internationally.
So I think that's kind of thethird tranche of opportunities.
So no shortage of things to do.
That's a very useful frame for us
because, you know, I think there'sthree places where we grow our
economy, as you just said, at home,on the Continent, and out in the world.

(11:29):
And we probably have not, you know,just drawn from the comments you
guys have been making so far, youknow, exploited all three of those,
uh, you know, to their fullest.
Right?
And they don't have to be competing,you know, you don't have to give up on
one to, you know, to build the other.
But I wonder, Andrew, you interact witha lot of companies, um, and it's

(11:52):
companies that trade, uh, governmentsset up agreements to make it easier.
Governments have their role to play, butit's, it's it's companies that trade,
are you, are you hearing some kind of,you know, the gears shifting in any way,
Um, uh, over the last several months?
I think so, and I think thereis the recognition that the

(12:14):
frustrating environment for deployingcapital the last 10 to 15 years.
So a lot of international companiesthat were here have left and struggled
to get projects off the off the ground.
Um, and I think now as the recognitionof they're hearing the words from
us that they wish they'd heard,
you know, the 10 years ago whenthey were looking at their projects.

(12:35):
So I think that is known.
We gotta get past that.
We gotta show, uh, Ed the, like,the leapfrog, um, uh, visual, right?
Like, I think we, we need to recognizethat we need to make, uh, massive change
in how we deal with our customers.
And when I think to Christine's threetranches, I think what was really
interesting is we talk about likeat home to the South and abroad.

(12:58):
To be honest, as we look at incrementalinvestments going forward, maybe it's
the, the order needs to be thoughtabout is maybe it's the, you know,
right now we've been doing South,then maybe abroad, then maybe at home.
Maybe that needs to be flipped a littlebit when we talk about the next dollar
spent and the next investment spent,it maybe needs to disproportionately

(13:21):
look like over the next decade,
I think disproportionately needs to looklike we need to grow and diversify
that direction internationally.
There are advantages we have as a company.
We gotta get past what the,I'll say the damage that we've
caused in the last decade.
Um, and then as well theinterprovincial trade barriers,
Christine, that you talk about.
It's, you know, my father talked about it.

(13:43):
Right.
Like that's, and that's, that's,that's embarrassing, right?
That we're still talking about thesame issue that we were when my
father first entered the oil andgas space in early in his career.
Right?
So, um, you're right.
It's, it's, it is embarrassing.
We need to look at how is it thatwe can, um, recognize that the, the,

(14:04):
the population of Canada and thatyour neighbor and that our neighbors
are customers, not competitors.
And this is good for us as a, as awhole to, to find ways to grow
Canada and for everybody, right?
Not province versus province.
And that's really where most of this, uh,has come from over the last few decades.
So I think to the next dollar spent.

(14:25):
And, and I think we really needto, to think about how do we
unlock those two that have been
the struggle, that have been kind of thewheels spinning in the sand, so to speak.
Andrew, you raised in there a really goodpoint about we also need international
capital to invest in Canada, andthat continues to be a challenge and

(14:46):
a challenge that I'm not sure we'vefully come to grips with as a country.
And the reality is, you know, uh,
other countries around the world havetuned into this in a pretty big way.
They understand that they needinternational capital to achieve
all the things that they wanna do.
And given the size and scope of thechallenge and opportunity in front
of us in Canada, there is no questionthat international capital is required.

(15:10):
So I can share with you theexample of a couple of weeks ago,
I attended a meeting where the, thegovernor of Louisiana gave a little
talk. And, I think Louisiana's aninteresting case study, right?
Because 10 years ago theyhad 0% of us LNG exports.
Then we move forward to today andthere's 61% of US LNG exports,

(15:30):
which is spectacular growth.
But alongside that growth has comeother industry, other activity.
You know, the growth in Louisiana has beenspectacular, but the Governor stands up
in this sort of, you know, round tablediscussion and says, well, I think that
capital goes where it's treated the best.
And I'm here to tell you theplace it's gonna be treated
the best is Louisiana.

(15:51):
Now, by the way, I'm not hereto advertise for Louisiana.
That's the gGovernor's job.
But as I was sitting there, Iwas reflecting, you know, I hear
similar messages in differentcountries around the world.
You know, we want your capital, we wantyou to invest, come and talk to me.
We will make this happen sort of message.
And I was thinking, you know,
do international investors getthat same message in Canada today?

(16:12):
And why not?
Because we want the investment,
we need the investment,
and uh, you know, others are out theretrying to take the space and, you know,
I, Christine, what is, what is that
why not? You know, because you.
Both, I suppose, in your war, in your lifeat Total, I guess you were trying to say,
Hey, headquarters, I'm here in Canada,

(16:35):
um, come invest. And in Northlandnow you also have to, you
know, make those decisions.
I mean, investing in Canada, investingabroad, you've, as you said before, you've
been the company, been very active, uh,overseas in the North Sea, other places.
So, so why not? What's standing in the way?
Ed, it's a really interesting questionto me and maybe I, you know, maybe I'm

(16:57):
sort of countercyclical because I'vecome back to Canada 'cause I really
think that Canada has this huge sortof untapped opportunity in front of it.
But there's a few things.
I think there needs to be an understandingthat businesses need to make good
profits and they have to invest theirmoney where they will make good rates
of return for their shareholders.
You know, a lot of Northlandshareholders are Canadians

(17:19):
and they want returns because they'retrying to save for retirement.
So those shareholders, I will tellyou, are demanding bunch and they
are definitely interested in makingsure that when we're deploying our
capital, we're doing it in a way thatis gonna make money for investors.
So that's, you know, the idea thatcompanies making money needs to happen.
That seems like, again, one of theseblinding statements of the obvious,

(17:40):
but I'm not sure it's always obvious.
There's a, so this rate of returnconsideration is important. I think
um,
the the need for
talent, and the development of talent.
You know, we talk a lot about ourneighbor to the South, but the reality
is that the tax structure is verydifferent in our neighbor to the South.

(18:01):
And, uh, we even see, you know,in response, you know, I used to
live for a while in, in Denmark.
Denmark has a policy where they decidedthey wanted more senior executive
talent to come into the country.
So they actually have createdthis, uh, program where when they,
when companies wanna bring in seniorlevel talent, uh, for the first five
years they live in the country, thatsenior level talent pays a flat tax

(18:23):
that's lower than what the generalincome tax rate would be in Denmark.
It's a policy that's responsive to needingto bring in talent to make sure that
you can drive your business forward.
It's the kind of thing that I, Icannot see ever getting sort of
proposed in Canada as a, as a concept.
You know, it's a fascinating to me thatit was a public policy that won the day
in Denmark, but it's an example of justrecognizing that as a, and Danes, by

(18:49):
the way, very talented business people.
Tremendous country,incredible place to be.
But they said, you know what?
We wanna be even more, and we wannabring in the best of international
talent in order to help us get there.
It was just a policy decision and thenmake the things happen around that.
So I think that kind of vision and whereare we trying to get to and be honest
about our gaps, I think it's important.

(19:10):
The reality is how dowe attract the capital?
Why is capital going elsewhere?
And I'm not sure that we havereally wrapped our arms around that.
We did.
Andrew, you said we had a lot ofinternational investment in Canada,
I would say two decades ago.
Um, a lot of that is not there anymore,and many of those companies will likely

(19:31):
be difficult to convince to return.
Well, a lot of it wasgoing to the oil sands.
You know from, uh, from tax changes that weremade, uh, which helped open up the oil
stands in, uh, in the early 2000s,and, you know, a huge building boom
that, uh, I think petered out with thecollapse of oil prices in, uh, in 2014.
Um, so, so is it, is it a globalenvironment in which we can't

(19:56):
control or is it, Andrew, things thatwe're doing or not doing at home?
I, I wanna, I wanna pointout that the, the asset that
you laid, uh, laid out there
still continues to be one ofthe largest growth engines in
all of the Canadian economy.
And we've scared capital away from that,which is just, it's, it's unbelievable.

(20:16):
And we've seen it, um, consolidatedinto few players and we, um,
struggled to approve projectsto move, uh, things forward.
So, Christine, when I was thinkingabout what you were saying and, and Ed's
question right now, as I look at like,
really, the bigger issue on why thefeelings are over us in the last
decade is, is that the time it tookfor projects to get approved, right?

(20:40):
We have made things exceptionallydifficult to advance projects, and it's
because, um, the only advocates for theseprojects were private enterprise trying to
push forward against layers of regulatory
involvement and, uh, many stakeholdersto try to bring to the equation,

(21:02):
and private industry wants toinvest the capital in that project.
And I think this is where governments,whether they be provincial,
federally, need to step in andsay, these are the ones that we
wanna see move forward for Canada.
And we're going to not createmore barriers and create
more approvals on top of it,
but we think for a measure ofwhat we're trying to achieve, and

(21:24):
not just the project, but our GDPand our project productivity and
Christine, your, uh, your idea ofexecutive, like if we're talent,
if we're talent short on tradesto develop these projects, right?
Again, programs could be made to bring in,uh, these, um, and unlock productivity,
you get these projects built faster.
So Christine, you've got,you've deployed some capital

(21:45):
here in Canada recently, right?
What was it that was special that madethose projects happen sooner and quicker?
Those are the things we gotta mimic andwe gotta mimic on the bigger stuff, right?
And, and to the areas thatCanada's exceptionally advantaged,
which is large resources.
We're sitting on some of the world'slargest resources and, and the world

(22:06):
wants them, yet we're making it verydifficult to attract to capital, to
go and develop them and share themand, and create benefit for Canada.
Andrew, we do have these phenomenalresources under the ground, but you're
exactly right that the permittingtime for moving projects forward
is not competitive, for Canada.

(22:26):
That, um, years ago I saw a studythat, you know, sort of takes a simple
warehouse and moves it around theworld to see which places in the world
do that more quickly or less quickly.
And, uh, Canada poor, didvery poorly just on that.
And I can tell you that pretty well.
Everything we need to do from aninfrastructure perspective is a lot
more complicated than a warehouse.
So.
And then that is, I had an interestingconversation actually with a government

(22:50):
official who explained to me, oh,well, in Canada, we need to make
sure, you know, it takes the time thatit takes in order to get it right.
To which my response was aspolitely as I could manage,
part of getting it right is how longit takes. You know, this is important.
These things can't be separated like theyexist in two totally separate universes.

(23:13):
We have, you know,
uh, recent meeting I talked to someexecutives who did this phenomenal project
in California, uh, transformationalsort of energy project, really a beacon.
And they said, oh, you know, thepermitting process was really
tough on that, you know, not surewe would go down that road again.
And I said, oh, well, what do you mean?
What would, how longdid it take? Get ready?

(23:35):
Three years.
Three years was the permitting processthat they thought was unacceptably long.
Compare and contrast Canada, LNG, ourLNG export facility for Canada that
we're trying to, you know, is goinginto operation very soon, I think 13
years to get approval on that guy.
Like these three and 13 are not the same.
This is not a tiny tweak.

(23:57):
This is a fundamentalchange in how we do things.
Okay, so let's take this around.
Uh, if, if, if I may, if I may, Ithink I'm sounding like, uh, like the
Prime, like the Prime Minister there.
I'm sorry.
Um, um, yeah, absolutely.

(24:17):
Speaking of the Prime Minister inhis acceptance speech on election
night, um, he said Build baby, build.
Now, that's not something thatwe've heard a lot of Prime Ministers
of Canada say, uh, say recently.
But in order to deliver on that,you know, the points saying, and,
and you know, he's sort of tryingto create, I think a standard of

(24:37):
two years for regulatory approvals.
So is that good enough? And how can youhelp him with some advice you might
give here to realize that, you know,here's what your government needs to do
to hit the standard that you wanna hit?
Christine?
Well, Ed, I think, uh, a focuson getting it done is important.

(25:01):
We've done a lot of talking for along time in the country, so actually
getting things done is important and Iwould offer maybe a little hopeful
example to say that it is possible.
So, uh, Northland Power,
this week we announced with ourpartners, uh, the Oneida Energy
Storage Project here in Ontario.
Uh, it's in operationon the electricity grid.

(25:21):
As of right now, it's Canada's largest,uh, battery energy storage project.
It's first of its kind in the country,250 megawatt, four hour duration.
Uh, it's about an hour anda half outside of Toronto.
And, um.
Phenomenal experience with,with a a and with Indigenous
ownership, I believe as well.
Right?
With indigenous partners.
Uh, and, and NRStore who were the, theycame up with the idea at the beginning

(25:44):
and AECON as well came in as a partner,uh, supported by the infrastructure bank.
The project is an enormous success,and it has come in ahead of schedule.
And under budget and in terms of largeCapEx projects in the world, in all
industries that come in ahead of scheduleunder budget for projects over a hundred
million dollars, it's less than 10%.

(26:05):
So it's a huge achievement.
And from the time that we becameinvolved as Northland Power,
through the construction phaseinto operation was two years.
So we're really very pleasedwith the outturn on that and
the way that that could be done.
But that meant that we had indigenouscommunities, our partners, the local
community in Haldimand County, theOntario government, the regulator,

(26:27):
the developers, our banks, all pushingtogether in order to make that happen.
So the good news is that it can happen.
So we can do this in Canada.
We can build big, complicated things andwe can do it quickly and effectively.
So it's possible.
So I would say that that's my firstmessage to the Prime Minister is that it
is possible, but we need to make it easierbecause that happened with a huge amount

(26:50):
of, uh, you know, perseverance and, uh,
close relationships with the partners,but it should be able to happen easier.
So the idea that we're gonnahave timelines, but at the end of
those timelines, there has to becertainty as to what's happening,
because that's the problem we havenow too, is that in our regulatory
process, you can do everything right,but at the end it's an unfettered

(27:13):
determination of whether yourproject gets the green light or not,
that's too much uncertainty for business.
So for large scale, I mean, thisproject, we were well aligned.
We could understand where it fits andwhy it fits, and we were able to make
it all work together, which is great.
I'm happy for that, but not every projectis as clearly aligned as that, and so
it's helpful as an investor to know early.

(27:35):
Is this going to
make it through the process ornot? Because the process in Canada
is time consuming and expensive.
So then we make decisions aboutwhere we're deploying, where
we are gonna deploy capital.
So I would say to the Prime Ministerthat there needs to be certainty in
terms of the outcome. Having it fullydiscretionary at the end of the outcome
as it is under the current process

(27:56):
makes it very difficult froman investment perspective.
And by the way, I testified thatabout that in front of the Senate
when Bill C-69 was being proposed.
I flew back home in order to testifyin front of the Senate to say from
an international perspective, thisdecreases Canada's investability,
the fact that there's this amount ofuncertainty at the end of the process and

(28:16):
really we have to compete for capital.
So.
I brought that forward, thenI would make the same comment
now.
So the timeline is important, yes,
but at the end of the process, youneed to understand that, uh, you know,
if you meet the barrier, if you meetthe requirements, then you're gonna be
able to move forward with your project.
That certainty is important.

(28:37):
Andrew, I, I know we wanna come inand I want, I want you to come in and
I want you to maybe put this in thecontext of the many clients you talk to in
industries who are gonna have toinvest if we're gonna build baby build.
And you know, what you're hearingfrom them about what they need.
Well, so I love Christine'sstory about that
it's possible. That two years is,is possible, and that's a timeline.

(28:58):
Um, she, she called it a greatexperience of the fact that, uh,
everyone was alignedon the project, right?
And it was, this checked a lot of boxesfor Canada, for continued greening of our
grid, um, advancing a new technology thatwe wanna understand and, and incorporate
as, as part of our Canadian grid,
all that. It, it did not havecross border complexity.

(29:22):
It did not have all of that, which,which is these, the big projects
that we also need to advance in thecountry around bigger infrastructure.
You, Christine, you talked about LNG. You talked more LNG off
the coast, whether it be cross energycorridors, uh uh, grids, cross provinces.
These are all gonna be even morecomplicated and the two years needs to

(29:44):
to be true in that case as well.
So it means, it means thatthe alignment needs to come.
It needs to be crystal clear at thestart. That we recognize that this
may not check off all 10 of the boxesthat we were hoping that we would like
to do on all of our projects, but werecognize that the six or seven boxes
that it does check are really importantfor Canada and we're gonna help others

(30:06):
with energy poverty orothers with greening their
energy mix around the globe.
So the, the recognition that we,we can't be perfect and do only the
perfect projects, um, that needs tobe understood early, and that's needs
to, that needs to be fed into dayone on the project to recognize that

(30:26):
at, if we go through two years of
getting, getting capital aligned inbanks and debt and regulatory approvals
and all of this kind of stuff,
that, to Christine's point, at the twoyears at the end, is that the answer is
like, if you met all of these hurdles,the answer is yes versus well then we'll
decide if we like this for the purposeof Canada or with politics and above.

(30:48):
Yeah, both, both of you have have kindof moved into, uh, uh, electricity,
you know, discussion as well
One way or another.
And I actually wanna go a little, uh,
deeper on that
again. You know, the Prime Minister on,uh, in that acceptance speech spoke about,
um, clean energy and conventional energy.
So, you know, definitely peopleare talking about pipelines

(31:08):
and oil and gas projects andthe export of gas off, uh, off,
I'm gonna send the West Coast for nowChristine, but if you wanna correct
me on Newfoundland, you go ahead.
Um, uh, but electricityis something that we need
much, much more supply of. People saytwo times a supply, two and a half
times a supply in order to, uh, uh, tohit the kinds of goals that we'd, uh,

(31:32):
that we would like to hit as a country.
And we have, of course, some naturaladvantages 'cause our grid is, you know,
relatively clean to, um, to start with.
But, but a lot of the discussionis also around interties and, um,
I've been down the interties road.
You've been down the interties road.
Uh, it makes perfect sense andunless maybe you're, sometimes

(31:53):
you're a province and you're alittle bit worried about being, um,
beholden to the province next door.
Do you think we have a new attitudegoing on in the country around interties?
I hope so, Ed
and I will say it's a, I'm gonna tryto keep a positive perspective on that
conversation 'cause there's a long historybetween Newfoundland and a neighboring
project about interties and electricity.

(32:14):
So, uh, try not to bringthat into the piece, but,
you know, I wanna back up to whatyou said that when you say we have a
relatively green grid, I gotta pausethere and say, in fact, this is where
Canada does not give itself enough credit.
We have the fourthgreenest grid in the world.
So when you look at Canada's electricitygrid, fourth greenest grid in the world,
it means 98% of the world's countriesare much further behind than us.

(32:39):
And it means that our set ofchallenges is exciting and interesting,
but it's important for Canada.
The rest of the world is in a reallydifferent place in terms of what
they're trying to do with theirgrids, what they're trying to do with
their electricity infrastructure.
So our last mile of the greening effortis very different than many other
countries who are on their first mile.
Or who are still trying todeal with energy poverty.

(33:00):
We have more than a billion people on theplanet who are still in energy poverty.
So we have, you know, electricitymarkets globally are in full growth
mode, which is really exciting forthose of us who work in electricity.
It's great news all around. But I think
Canada needs to understand that thechallenges in Canada and the opportunities
in Canada are different than theopportunities elsewhere around the world.
Now for a company like Northland, welove the fact that Canada has had this

(33:24):
experience because we can take it intoother countries and it becomes very
helpful way of generating new businessand, uh, developing new opportunities
for us as a com as a company.
But for us as a country,we need to understand that
our set of solutions are different, andour needs are different than in almost
everywhere else around the world.
So I think it's just important that wekeep that in mind because we do have a lot

(33:48):
of conversation in Canada about how we'regoing to lead the world or we're gonna,
the reality is that almost nobody in theworld has what Canada has, this very green
grid, which we should be really proud of,
huge amount of resources under the ground.
Also we should be very proud ofand a skilled dynamic workforce
who know how to get stuff done.
We just need to unleash that.

(34:09):
That's the opportunity.
Christine, why we beingso hard on our own grid,
right?
Why do we treat it so difficultwhen we are as green as we are?
Right.
So you talk about the challengesare different here in Canada.
It's like, yeah, we are, we're on a,we've been on a greener journey for a
long time and we've been blessed witha lot of natural benefits that that

(34:31):
turned our, our grid, uh, green early.
Right?
But we don't need to be.
That difficult on our grid and recognizethat the incremental investments
that we need to do, we don't needto grow and be green at like a
lot of other countries need to do.
Right?
So like we have theopportunity to grow green and
capture some of these edges pieces.

(34:52):
Um, we're not actually trying to tackletwo massive issues at the same time.
We've kind of only gotone in a bit, right?
Like, so the opportunity I think is reallyreal for us to continue to invest and do
the projects like you've talked about.
Um, but recognize that
we are advantaged already and we don'tneed to measure ourselves to the the
toughest, toughest, toughest of standards.

(35:12):
To what extent is the greennessof the grid an advantage in
terms of competitiveness?
I think that's an important question.
I think the real strategic advantage forCanada is that we have a robust grid.
And affordable electricity.
So then you have to wonder,with that advantage, why are we
not seeing more investment, uh,from various industrial players?

(35:36):
And that's the question that Ithink we need to be really honest
about giving ourselves answers on.
I think the answer is that we'reinsufficiently competitive on other
things like the permitting, uh, likethe, the, the business environment
and the way that it's complicated.
You know, I've had my own boards ofdirectors say to me, Canada's complicated.
It's not one set of rules,it's 13 sets of rules.

(35:58):
They're right.
13 sets of rules.
That is absolutely true.
So it's not a straightforwardinvestment decision as it would
be in some other countries.
I think we need more organizationsthat are working to yeses.
In the country and yes, for not just thereturn on capital, but for Canada and
growth, GDP. Return on capital is king.
Yeah.
If I go talk to my shareholders and say,oh, well, you know, I'm, you're gonna

(36:19):
get a lower return, but you're gonna feelgood about it because we're investing in
this particular geography versus another.
I can tell you that I, what thereaction is gonna be and it'll be clear.
Yeah.
You're not gonna be CEOfor too long without No.
Yeah.
It might be a bit of a,what do they call it?
A career limiting move.
So, I mean, you have to, you know, I. Wehave to deliver returns for shareholders.
And so that's where Canada'scompetitiveness is critically important.

(36:43):
And its competitiveness on, uh,permitting, on taxation, on, you know,
this sort of, uh, you know, the overallability to do business in the country.
I, I think that's important.
We have to, we have to realize that
the competitive landscape has gotteneven tougher than it was 10 years ago.
Other countries are looking forthose dollars and we need to compete.

(37:10):
Okay.
Um, uh, we're gonna have to wrapup this part of the discussion.
I wanna ask you one final question,which is just on a scale of one to 10.
Given that the situation that thecountry is in that really is rethinking
things, uh uh, you know, and new, how
optimistic or pessimistic,

(37:30):
let's say pessimistic iszero, optimistic is 10,
how, how are you feeling about,uh, about pulling off a leapfrog?
I'm an inherently optimisticperson, so I'm, I'm gonna give that
an eight and say, for right now,I'm gonna stay very optimistic.
But the next six months are gonna be veryimportant to see, do we see the changes in

(37:51):
the posture of all of our governments,many governments in Canada? Do we see a
change in posture that's really orientedtowards this leapfrog opportunity?
So this is the moment.
This is the time will we see that happen?
Then we'll see if myoptimism is well placed.
Andrew, your number?

(38:12):
I'm, I'm gonna take Christine's leadand I'm gonna try and hold onto that.
Um, I'm gonna say six or seven becauseI believe we are going to do the right
things to unleash some projects inthe next months directly because we're
gonna wanna show some quick wins.
I think we're gonna, we're gonna see that.

(38:33):
Where I really wanna see isI wanna see that sustaining.
I wanna see that as this isn't justabout picking a project or two to do
a ribbon cutting and advance it, butI want to see a foundational change in
how we do the regulatory environmentfor all projects, not just two winners
that we pick or something like that.
So my optimism is I think we will seesome big moves here in the coming months.

(38:57):
What I wanna see
is change in actually the entireenvironment and the regulatory,
not just us picking a coupleprojects for the headlines.
Okay.
Andrew Botterill, Christine Healy, thank youso much for helping enlighten us, uh, and,
uh, I am sure that this conversation belistened to in places, uh, that you're
trying to influence what they're thinking.

(39:19):
So thank you for being with us, Christine.
Congratulations on the new positionand the project, uh, that, uh, that
you have coming on on batteries.
I'm gonna do a two second, uh, momenton Oneida to say that I do wanna say
huge thanks to NRStore, the SixNations of the Grand River, Aecon and the
Mississaugas of the Credit First Nations,because that partnership was a phenomenal

(39:43):
example of what we can get done.
The great project, duplicate it.
Let's go Christine.
I love it.
Alright, thank you both.
Look forward to talking again soon.
Okay, Andrew, we're back for a coupleof minutes just to uh, you know, do

(40:06):
a little bit of a recap of what we'veheard and I'm just wondering, you
know, what would your main takeawaysbe from the conversation we had today?
I love Christine's optimism.
Um, I, I, I challenged myself as I wasthinking through that, because what I
will admit is as I've been spending timewith clients, what I have in, in my ear,
so to speak, is that we wanna invest.

(40:28):
We're struggling to attract capital fromheadquarters maybe outside of Canada.
How do we make ourselves competitive?
We need to get our project built.
Um, and, but we need to workin a, in a global portfolio.
So, um, with those, I guess,complaints, I guess, over the last decade.
It's, it's tough to be optimistic,but I, I, I try to remind myself

(40:50):
like the environment that we'rehearing right now from both parties
across the country, coast to coast,is a message that we haven't heard.
In, in my entire professional lifetimeof this, that this reinvest in Canada
drive our pro productivity and howcan we, you know, get down, get past

(41:10):
interprovincial trade barriers.
Um, so I, the optimism, you know what,I should take more of Christine's
optimism and get out there and,uh, because I do believe that there
is an opportunity, and maybe it isupon us and others to, to bring that
optimism to the, to the forefront.
So that it makes our governmentofficials and our regulatory

(41:31):
environment work towards a Yes.
And, and for the benefit of the country.
So, so, so if, if, if you put onto theclients who you're talking to, the,
uh, the, uh, um, one to 10 question Iasked on pessimism, optimism, where do
you think, you know, on average theywould be at? 2, 3, 4. Oh really?
And it's, and it's on the backs of, of

(41:53):
a slate of projects they'vebeen able to, unable to advance.
Right.
So, um, I think all of them, if you,if you listen to what we're hearing
from the, the CEOs and leadershipsand executives of the companies that
we deal with in the country, I thinkwhat you'll hear now is "prove it".
Right?
So, at least now that they're, they feellike the message that they're hearing

(42:14):
from our government is, is, is themessage that they need to hear to try to
convince their investors to allowthem to spend the capital and
the places and get the return.
Um, so the prove it is real.
And, and to my comment on a, on acouple key projects, yes, I think
we need to get some out of the gateand I think need to be, need to
showcase, but we have to sustain showthe ability to, we wanna continue to

(42:36):
advance and we wanna disproportionatelyinvest in projects in Canada.
And get out of the way of opportunities.
And how big is the Canada US factor?
The, the, you know, what's been goingon around tariffs, around the idea of.
You know, we're talking about inthe conversation building at home
building East-West, exporting toother countries, you know, does that,

(42:59):
um, give them some renewed hope?
I think so.
And, and like, I, I am optimistic on this.
I think we're going to get throughthis noise of Canada, us It's, say
what you will about the administrationsthat there's a recognition that
Canadian businesses do a lot ofbusiness in the United States.
There's a lot of revenue, there'sa lot of dollars that cross the

(43:19):
border, and that's gonna continueto be the case for a long time.
Right?
So I should say, we gottamine that relationship.
We gotta keep it strong.
We gotta maybe get past some of thebumps that we're dealing with right now.
And I don't doubt that we can do that.
And then do you know what'sinteresting is that's what's going to
pay for the new investments, right?
Us being able to continue to sell ourproducts into United States, be the

(43:42):
profitable companies that we are andhave been for this entire period. That is
the cash that can be reinvested, right?
So that that relationshipneeds to be strong.
We need to continue to,to, to harness that, but
that's the cash that's goingto pay for the next investment.
And that's, you know, important thatwe recognize that that base is here.

(44:04):
We need to mine the , source to speak.
Right.
And then find the ways, how do we takethat cash and deploy it for Canada and
not just take cash out of the country.
Well, you know, if there's onenumber that's made an impression
upon me this year, and it's not avery, you know, well known number,
I think it should be better known.
It's that the Bank ofCanada said that the TMX
Pipeline is by itselfcontributing four tenths of 1%

(44:28):
to the GDP of Canada by itself.
And so that's what you get for the firsttime, perhaps for exporting oil and
raising the price of the oil that wesell the United States at the same time.
And now we're gonna hopefullydo similar thing in gas.
Um, so I guess that shows the importanceof some of these projects, right?
It does.
Right.
And, um, it, it's a great example.

(44:50):
Do you remember how hard that project was?
Is still.
Yep.
Right.
So that was a very difficultproject to get over the line.
Um, say what you will about
how expensive it was to buildversus first expectations and
all of that kind of stuff.
Right.
But I think the business case that thatproject shows to us, this isn't just
about the customers that have pipelinecapacity there and are moving their

(45:14):
barrel off the west coast into Asia anda different price than they were before.
So what it has also done, is ita scenario differential for every
barrel of oil sold in Canada.
Since that pipeline turned on.
Right.
But I'll tell you, ed, like theinvestment that happened in that
pipeline was based on the companiesand the tolls and them looking at

(45:35):
their rate of return and saying, canI get an extra dollar or two or three
if I'm selling that barrel elsewhere?
And diversifying? Canada isgetting the benefit of elevated
prices across many other players.
So the economic case and the rateof return that Christine was talking
about that can happen in companies.

(45:56):
We gotta make, we gotta unleash that.
Right?
Canada needs to step in and say,Hey, we also recognize that you
need to get a rate of return.
Yeah.
But it's gonna be worth somethingto us as a country because it's
going to do other things for usin our GDP and how we develop.
So what's nice is that you and Ihave that project to look at right
now and say, Hey, look what it did.
Like.
High water floated all boats and it'screated more economics into the country

(46:19):
then we may, then that firstbusiness case, so to speak,
would've, would've drawn, right?
So that makes the investmentfor maybe the next project.
We get the ability to look over thefence to that and say, Hey, maybe, maybe
we need to do another one of these.
And recognize that sometimesthese infrastructure builds are
more than the cash flow of theindividual product and the project.

(46:41):
Um, it, it's like, I don't know aboutthe optimism, but I hear the hopefulness,
uh, uh, starting to build in you.
So.
Um, I'm trying, maybe Christinewas contagious, so thanks so
much for your insight today.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks for listening to FullCircle, The Leapfrog Series.
If you enjoyed the conversation, pleasesubscribe and share it with other

(47:04):
people you know who might also enjoy it.
Next time we're gonna tackle one of themost discussed topics in the country, trade,
and how to diversify Canada's markets.
Now, that's a strategy that'sbeen tried before and it has never
succeeded yet in reducing dependenceon the single market of the United
States, but now we have a chance.
Again, stay tuned.

(47:26):
I'm Edward Greenspon.
Thanks for listening.
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