August 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Leading with purpose: Canada’s path to prosperity.
In conversation with Ed Greenspon, co-chair of the Future of Canada Centre, Deloitte Canada’s CEO, Anthony Viel, reflects in this season finale on steering through a time of exceptional disruption—from the aftershocks of COVID-19 and supply chain challenges to the rapid rise of artificial intelligence and evolving geopolitical dynamics.
Amid these headwinds, the episode spotlights Canada’s unique opportunity to achieve greater economic independence and shape its own destiny. Anthony Viel highlights how leaders nationwide are experiencing a renewed sense of purpose, stepping up to face uncertainty with bold action, long-term vision, and a deep commitment to building prosperity for all Canadians.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are genuine and reflect the guest's views; the guest is also a client of Deloitte Canada.
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi everyone.
I'm Ed Greenspon and I'm delighted tobe with you today for another edition
of Full Circle (00:07):
The Leapfrog Series.
Today we speak with Anthony Viel.
AV as he's universally known, ChiefExecutive Officer of Deloitte Canada
and Chile. AV interacts with justabout every business and public
sector leader in the country.
As head of the largest professionalservices firm in Canada, he has
(00:27):
eyes on what's moving out there.
Since becoming CEO in 2019, Igotta say, a lot has been moving.
AV has guided Deloitte through anunprecedented onslaught of global
Challenges (00:37):
COVID-19, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the geopolitical competition
between China and the United States,
inflation and affordability, supply chaindisruptions, the climate crisis. The
energy transition, the AI revolution.
Of course, the Trump presidency.
As many of you know by now, Full Circlehas been dedicated in recent months
(01:01):
to what we call the Leapfrog series.
We have been exploring how Canadacan turn the challenges thrown our
way into leapfrog opportunities.
No more boiling frog syndrome. Usingthe present sense of crisis to shake
the frog out of its slumber and catapultthe country to a more dynamic future.
(01:21):
Normally on The Leapfrog Series,we feature both an organizational
leader and a Deloitte partner.
We've asked AV today to fillboth roles in this last episode
before we go on hiatus for the rest of thesummer, we will talk about the risks and
opportunities facing Canadian governments,businesses, and people, what actions
need to be taken and the leadershipqualities required to pull it off
(01:44):
So, let's get at it.
Thanks for joining us today, AV.
Thank you, Ed, for having me.
I'm, I'm excited.
But as I heard that list, we'vebeen through a lot already.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It is daunting.
And actually, I kind of wanted tosay that, you know, since becoming
a CEO, and that's a number of yearsnow, uh, you've been, you know, you
probably landed a quiet day, right?
(02:06):
Uh, not a single quiet day, but thefirst quarter this year. You know,
with an unconventional president,threatening to end the world
order and Canada's place in it,
you know, that's been, I think,
particularly disruptive.
When did you begin to see thatsomething very different was at a hand?
Yeah.
Uh, it's interesting, you, you'vesaid the first quarter, I, I would
suggest that it, it started probablya quarter before that as well.
(02:30):
I mean, my Canadian history is notas solid as yours of, uh, but the
amount of elections that we had ina six-month period, I think, uh, I
hate using the word unprecedented wasunprecedented, and that caused a lot of.
Pause.
So it's almost like you talkabout agility when you're moving,
it's really easy to be, oreasier to be agile. When you stop,
(02:54):
and we were stopped, uh, and in ourtrack, so to speak, waiting for a
few things to settle, not the leastof which the federal election.
And then that coincideswith, you know, what started
transpire in the first quarter.
So it's almost like we're flat footed.
Um, uh, and I don't know if you'vehad others speak to you, uh,
like that on this podcast, butit was like we were flat-footed.
(03:17):
You're right.
There was a lot, you know, there wasthe Trump election, there was the
change in the liberal leadership.
There was a federal election, there wasan Ontario election and certain other
provinces, you know, in that period.
Yeah, there was a lot of, youknow, as you say, settling,
into, um, how are the teams, who are theteams that are gonna lead us, uh, to this?
Right?
Indeed.
And I think as a citizen, you know,all of us felt that anxiety to
(03:41):
sort of say, we need to respond.
Not sure how to respond, but noone's in a position to respond
'cause we're all waiting for all thecomponent, uh, to settle down to, to get
into rhythm, to be able to, you know,do what needs to be done, whether you're
in government, business or otherwise.
And so, you know, there's a bit of that,
um, anxiousness, if you will, um, as well.
(04:02):
And I think that impacted us notonly in the business context, but
personally as, as citizens at large.
When would you say you began to respond?
Like what, what was the triggerfor you to begin to respond?
Well, uh, it was, it was interesting.
I, and I, I don't know what happened, butin a Deloitte we just sort of recognized,
(04:22):
um, that this was our moment as
Canada.
These, we didn't necessarilychoose this path.
We didn't choose this situation,but, uh, we sort of said, Hey,
there's something to be done here.
And the way that we mobilizeinternally, we, we actually called
it Canadian Economic Independence.
Uh, and from that, um, it sort of give usa bit of a, a mantra internally to sort
(04:47):
of say, Hey, we've gotta play a role,
as a prominent, um, corporate, if youwill, or prominent organization right
across the country, uh, as um, youknow, for want of a better word, as
you know, members of our communitiesaround the country, as individuals and as
citizens, this is a time to move forward'cause Canada needs, needs that unity.
(05:11):
Um, and, and, and
ultimately we needed a direction, and Ithink we're getting that direction now.
So that would've been early on, aroundFebruary, I guess, uh, the sort of penny
dropped and, and, uh, I was hauling folkin, in office every two weeks to talk
about Canadian economic independence.
And I was trying to pitch it as notthis uncertainty, ambiguous future
(05:38):
per se, but rather what can we do?
And why, in a sense, why as acorporate leader did you feel
the need to be doing that?
Well, first and foremost, Iknow I'm not alone in this.
Um, I think that, uh, you know, a lotof the folk that I interact with, CEOs
across the country felt they had a highercalling to play a role as, as a human,
(05:59):
as a citizen, as much as the leadersof their respective organizations.
Um, so.
I can't describe what was the triggernecessarily for them, but for me it was
just sort of say, if we're not gonnado something, we being Deloitte, if I'm
not going to do something as a CEO atDeloitte, who is? Who's going to do that?
(06:21):
And it's not to say that we could,we alone can do it, but we need a
collective of individuals then inthe, in these positions in government,
outside government, communityleaders, et cetera, that's just
gonna step forward, put our handup and say, we're ready to go.
Which way do we go together?
We now have entered the,uh, second half of the year.
(06:41):
Um, things are still in motion allaround us, but the people who, with
whom you interact across the country,how would you say, given that those
moments, how are they acting differently?
How are they managingand leading differently?
Yeah, I think that the.
I still think there's acouple of dominoes to fall.
Let me just say that.
(07:04):
But at the first quarter of theyear, there was that anxiety
that I mentioned there earlier.
There was that uncertainty aroundhow the federal, how federal
election was going to fall.
There was some uncertainty aboutwhat the policies were going to be.
Um, uh, and it was more question marks of,you know, who's gonna lead this country?
(07:27):
Uh, what, what are theirpolicies going to be?
How effective they're going to beagainst this uncertainty, the Trump
administration being one of them.
Uh, and I think now we, we'vegot over our anxiety with that.
Stability has come a whole raft of
ideas on how to move forward.
The beauty is too, Ed, and I'vebeen here 10 years in this country,
(07:51):
they're the same things that we talkedabout 10 years ago in many respects.
So it's not as if they're newand out of the ether, per se.
They're things that we knew hadto happen, but for one reason or
another we never really took them on.
So, I see us now to say we know what to do.
We've been speaking about it fora long time, so it's not new.
(08:12):
It's almost like we've analyzedit every which way that we can.
Now,
we just needed a couple ofdominoes to fall, and I think
we're all ready to get in line.
Um, and that, and when I say getin line, I look at it, uh, in,
in the, in the context of whatI call no regret strategies.
And you talked about it at the top ofthe call, productivity being one of them.
(08:36):
There's no regret in movingforward there, and we see
leaders across the country embracingproductivity, particularly when it
comes to technology. Diversification,
Um, we all, we saw a flavor of this comingout of the pandemic, and we've just seen
it being reinforced in the last six monthswhen it comes to supply chain, where are
(08:58):
we getting the things that we need, thecritical things that we need, and, and
how do we de-risk those supply chains?
The, the thing that's come with thelast six months has been diversification
away from our sole dependencyon the US market for prosperity.
That's a new thing.
Um, but the concept of diversificationhas been in place for a while.
(09:21):
And then we talk about theother things that hold us back.
And this has been my fascinationsince I've got in this country.
The interprovincial barriers.
And not only for trade, um,but the mobility of talent.
I mean, Canada's a small country andhow much we constrain the mobility of
talent to where the actual opportunitiesare, I think is a no regret strategy
(09:43):
to work on that, even for accountants,
which is still a head scratcher for me.
So is that a fascination you'vebeen living with with 10 years.
I first wrote about this in thelate 1980s, so, uh, I've been
living with it in, in two centuries.
Uhhuh, uh, practically.
Um, but was it different inAustralia when you say that?
(10:04):
Well, that's, that's the fascination.
I mean, the way people ask me what'sthe difference between Australia
and Canada, and this is one of them.It's almost like the realization
that we're a small country.
Um, we have limited resources.
We have to be wise in theway in which we deploy them.
We have to work together.
The countries are built prettymuch exactly the same way.
(10:26):
Um, the nuance here locally, and Isay it's a good nuance as Quebec,
but everything else is pretty muchthe same, same big country, spread
out population and all the goods andgood, and the good things and the
difficult things that come with it.
Pretty much the same.
In the eighties, I was studyingeconomics, not practicing, um,
(10:48):
uh, or working, I should say.
Uh, but we had that epiphany, if youwill, as a nation back in the 80s.
We're just not that big.
Uh, and for all the goodreasons that federation was.
Set up, we were taking down barriers then.
So, um, you know, we had one stockexchange and then we had one regulator
(11:10):
for companies and securities, andwe had one, one of everything where
we seem to have 10 here or 11 here.
Well, securities regulator, asyou know, is something, a national
one that we, um, have tried.
And tried and tried.
You know, when, when, when, as you'redescribing, Australia was beginning to
take that down and unify the economy,
(11:31):
and you know, we have a Prime Ministernow who talks about a single economy.
Uh, I was based in Europe for theglobe, and Europe was unifying around
a concept they called Europe 1992.
And I remember doing, spending timewith, uh, Donald McDonald, uh, the
author of the McDonald Commission,who was then the high commissioner
in the UK and saying, you know.
Why can't we get this done in Canada?
(11:51):
And he was pretty worked up about whatwe're now talking about still years later.
I wonder though if that makes youfeel, you know, as you say, for 10
years we've been talking about the samethings and for even longer on some of
these items, there must be a reasonwhy they defy their logical conclusion.
(12:11):
Why do you think that is?
That's a loaded question.
I think Canada
has done a lot of things well such thatwe've lived as Canadians very, very well.
And I know today some listenersmight say that's not exactly the
case for everyone, and I get that.
But when you live well, and you'reright on the doorstep of the
(12:35):
largest economy, the hard stuff,you know, we mightn't take on.
I've heard other others sortof say we're a complacent.
When you're isolated on the other side ofthe hemisphere and you know, you, you're
seven hours to get outta your countryon a, on a, on a plane, so to speak,
(12:57):
and you don't have that access to globalmarkets like we do enjoy here in Canada.
Sometimes you don't have achoice, so backs against the wall.
I back Australians to come up with a,a solution backs against the wall in
Canada we ll come up with a solution.
And now our park is against that wall.
Um, I'll say this carefully enthusiastic
(13:21):
'cause I think you're gonna see thebest of Canada in these next 10 years.
Uh, and, uh, like the Canadiansthat built this country several
decades ago, uh, I believe.
So that of course is the leapfrog, uh,concept in a way that, you know, we
have been a boiling frog as you're, asyou're describing, uh, not in everything.
(13:43):
Obviously it's a country that's asuccessful country, um, in the world.
But now, you know, now is themoment where we can leapfrog.
So let's assess those four no regretsthat you talked about a moment ago.
Sure.
How are they trending?
Well, I mean, the rhetoric is terrific.
Um, um, I'm expecting,
personally, in the next month or so,we're gonna see some, those few first few
(14:06):
dominoes to fall is what I'm predicting.
Um, if I was in any sort ofposition, I imagine I'd be pushing
some of those dominoes over,so I'm expecting them to occur.
What do I mean by that?
I think we're gonna get some clarityaround, you know, what are, what
are some nationally critical nation-building projects that we need to
get it done across this country?
(14:26):
And the prime minister's been prettyforthright in what they could look like.
Once we see the clarity and whatcomes with and, and the support
that comes with there, I thinkthat's gonna be a, a validation that
we're on the, on the right path.
Um, the, we're already seen to see,uh, already seeing some movement
on the Interprovincial trade staff.
(14:47):
I'm quite enthusiastic about that.
Um.
Uh, and you know, I think thatthat's gonna come part and parcel
with some of these nationalnation building, um, projects.
I think they, that there's gonnabe a bit of a package that'll
come down the line there.
I'm incredibly enthusiasticwith the re-engagement of India.
(15:07):
Uh, you know, this, that's aneconomy that's going somewhere.
Uh, and also the re-engagementback into UK and Europe.
Something that I thinkwe've deprioritized.
Some of our colleagues here at Deloittehave been telling me for 10 years
about we, we are in a, in a favoreduh, situation compared to some of
our global competitors when it comesto free trade agreements as well.
(15:30):
So, which gets us access to twothirds of the world economy.
The, the, the track's already been laid.
We just gotta put thetrain on those tracks.
So I see the moves into uk, Europe, themoves into India, dare I say it, the moves
down in other parts of Asia Pacific, thelikes of Australia, Japan, et cetera.
Um, I can get really, I'm, I'm seeing thatnow, so I'm really excited about that.
(15:55):
I don't wanna put any gloom on thisbecause I think there's a lot of
potential as, as, as you obviously do.
Um.
But if the pressure comes off, youknow, we kind of saw that a little bit
during the election campaign when, uh,president Trump didn't mention Canada
for three weeks and people kind of went,okay, it's, you know, maybe it's over.
Um, uh, but it wasn't over.
(16:16):
If the pressure comes off,do you worry about us just
shifting back into complacency?
I do.
100%
I mean, I've done enough study ofpsychology and if we, I mean, what
would lead us to believe that?
Um.
If we got a, a near miss, asI described it, uh, use safety
parlance, you have a near miss.
(16:38):
You go, whew, that was lucky.
And then you keep on doingthe same thing going forward.
Um, I am, I am a, a, a bitconcerned about that for sure.
The one thing though that I think,um, the one thing though that could
be in our favor here is that thepressure might come off as directly,
(16:59):
uh, depending on the outcomes of someof these trade discussions that everyone
knows about, but the, the trade routesof the world have changed. And so we're
gonna have to change a little anyway.
So even if the pressure comes off, I thinkthere's still enough impetus for change.
(17:20):
Um, but yeah, I think it's abig, it's a legitimate concern.
Now, I was struck by the economicsdepartment here at Deloitte.
The, uh, very excellent economicsdepartment did a study on,
on diversification and oninterprovincial trade barriers.
(17:42):
And you can see that inter provincialtrade counts for 18% of our GDP and it
counted for about a quarter of our GDP
30, 40 years ago, so that GDP has gonemore into United States trade and one
would not want that to be going down.
But nonetheless, there'spotential at home.
(18:03):
And obviously with what's beenhappening in Asia for the last,
uh, you know, 20 years or more,there's obviously, uh, great.
Potentially, you mentioned Europe,you know, reengaging with Europe.
So there's a lot of markets, um,in the world, but it's easiest to
do the market next door, right?
Yeah, and that was one of, again,I had a lot of fascinations
(18:24):
that come to this country.
I love this country.
Um, and it's, as we mentioned earlier,we've done particularly well, which
sometimes I think we understate it,but we have, and if you don't believe
that, go to another country and you'll,you'll see we're done particularly well.
But, um, passant to dealnorth, south instead of east,
west became like the default.
(18:47):
Which sort of is a bit of a head scratchof, for me to come from a country that
sort of had that unification moment 40years ago where you're trying to look a,
you're trying to look after each other.
Well, you didn't, youdidn't have an easy option.
No, there was no easy option.
Yeah.
You had to swim.
Oh, push.
You know, it was, there'sno, uh, no easy option.
But uh, that just strikes me as odd.
(19:09):
There is, there, helpinglift everybody else up,
builds the system of which we willrefer to as the economy of Canada.
Collectively, that's better outcomesfor everyone within that system.
One of the things we've come tounderstand in global economics, again
over the last 10, 20 years is the tradeand investment are closely linked.
(19:31):
They're intertwined with one another.
So there's those markets out there, butthere's also international investors
who may have grown wary of Canada duringthis period that you're describing.
What do we need to do to reallyto truly grab their attention?
Yes.
Uh, well, well, again, the wind's blowingback in our direction here because in
(19:52):
the, because of that reordering of tradeflows, that requires investors to balance
their portfolios accordingly and that alot of 'em are coming up because of what's
transpired over the last decade or two.
They're underweight in Canada, sothey want to get things into Canada.
They want to get capital into Canada.
Um, that's point number one.
So wind behind this inthat front, um, I think.
(20:16):
Not think.
We recently convened a table and gotan understanding of how, how do we
provide a how to book to our countryabout how to accelerate infrastructure.
We could have picked a whole bunchof stuff, but infrastructure build in
the context of energy, the number onereason that come out from that table.
Very learned table.
(20:36):
This is not a Deloitte perspective per se.
This is coming from the peoplewho actually make these types
of investment with certainty.
Give me some certainty.
Certainly in the context ofyou're not gonna reverse it.
The, the situation in five or 10or 15 years time that makes this
investment, um, not, um, viable,but just gimme some certainty.
(21:00):
I can do the rest. I can bring, Ican get the capital, I can price it
accordingly, I can do the risk management.
But if you gimme a runway on whichI can get the return that I need to
get out of these types of investment.
So I understand from, from what I read
that, uh, we're putting in place, uh,uh, the appropriate infrastructure
to give that sort of certainty.
(21:21):
And if we get that, I thinkthat's the number one inhibitor.
I sometimes wonder because, youknow, we talk, um, a lot about
regulation and permitting andneeding to get certainty around that.
Um, we talk a little bit less abouttaxation and the government has
talked about corporate taxation.
You know, Ireland many years agoattracted the attention of the
(21:43):
world by making some tax changes.
I wonder if there's, you know, whetherit's in the regulatory or whether
it's in the taxation area, wherever,wherever it's in immigration, wherever
it may be, if there's a couple ofjust big signals that you send out.
Yeah.
Well, tax is certainly one of the levers.
Um, but we didn't hear that, um, throughthat table that I just mentioned.
(22:06):
We do hear that every day in thecontext of venturing, uh, building
new companies in particular.
Um, but certainly we're, youknow, I think it's universally
understood we're not tax competitive,
uh, at present.
The permitting's adifferent issue as well.
I think it's not the permitting perse, it's the 15 permittings on the
(22:29):
same topic through the various levelsof government, uh, and the like,
that gets very, very frustrating.
The point I wanna make here is that thereare definitely things we can do better.
Streamlining the permitting,simplifying our regulation, you know,
making our tax, um, more competitive.
(22:50):
But if you can give me some runway,10, 15 years, 20 years of certainty.
That you can grandfather fromgovernment to government, from
federal to provincial, municipal.
If you can gimme that certainty, I candeal with what's currently on the table.
You can price all the other risks,you can price all the other stuff in.
(23:11):
And you know what, we've probablygot a luxury here because the stuff
that we've got the rest of the worldwants, like, you know, we, we can
price it in and it'll be paid for
'cause we've got some terrific stuffthat not many can replicate at a scale.
So it makes us competitive,notwithstanding all
those other limitations.
Well, to that point, you know, on theprevious episode to this episode we talked
(23:34):
about, uh, natural gas and LNG Canada'sfirst shipments of, you know, first
shipments offshore of Canadian gas ever.
Um, you know, that's something theworld seems to want, want and need.
Oh, I'd throw it in need.
We know it's a, we know it's not,
Um,
it is not the cleanest fuel, but it'scleaner than most, and we know the
(23:56):
rest, uh, of the world is burning moreharmful fuel to do what they have to do.
Uh, and we won't get into technologybecause that's, that's one of
the drivers at, at, at present.
But my, my point is this, is that if youtake a step back and say, um, liquified
natural gas, and now as I understandit's the best in the world, um, if we
(24:18):
take that, uh, we're gonna be doingmore of a favor, um, to the planet,
given the other circumstances that areplaying out in other parts of the world.
I.
They're, they're, they're,they're burning dirt, dirtier
fuel, if you will, to do that.
So I was really excited about that.
I come from a country of liquified naturalgas, so I can, I can actually spell L, LNG.
(24:42):
Um, so I know, I know how good it can be.
Well, people helped you with that one.
Yeah, no, indeed, indeed, indeed.
But yeah, it's, I, I thinkthat was exciting and I think
that's a gift to the planet.
And I truly do.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I think, um, you know, assomebody who's lives in this country,
um, uh, most of my life outside thecountry for four or five years, but
most of my life, you know, the factthat we can now export oil offshore
(25:05):
at, at scale, and that we can exportgas offshore at scale, you know, we can
already see that's adding almost 1%.
To our GDP, just those two plants.
And there's more to come and, and,uh, and as you say, the world needs
it both because it's in the, in, inthe case of gas cleaner fuel, but
it's also more secure fuel in a worldthat's worried about security and
(25:26):
economic and, uh, military security ifyou will have fused in so many ways.
Indeed, indeed.
And, and I don't want, I don't wantit to come across the, the wrong way,
but LNG is a step up and, uh,
it's a real opportunity for thatnot many countries have, and this
is an advantage that we have and Ithink we can do some good with it.
(25:56):
So, let's talk about AI.
We've been hinting at talkingabout AI, so let's get there.
You know, we, we understand, um,that Canada has an opportunity.
The world has an opportunity.
Um.
We also know that, um, uh, that whilethis should add greater efficiency
and greater possibilities, that it,um, that it's disruptive in itself and
(26:20):
people are concerned about their jobs.
So how do we get that balance rightto be able to move forward on the
good, the license to move forward?
So, um, this is, this is a huge topic.
Um, it's a huge topic that brings a lotof an, uh, anxiety and consternation
depending on who you're talking to.
At one end of the spectrum, we've gota demographic shift happening in the,
(26:45):
um, that we've never seen before, andwe're not quite sure how that's gonna
shake out in the context of gettingthe things that need to be done.
On continents with the exceptionof Africa, uh, you mean, you mean
in a sense not enough workers?
Not, not enough workers todo what needs to be done.
So you need a lever there to, um, wehave to invest in productivity, um, to
(27:08):
be able to cover some of those gaps.
Um, the stat here, as I understand it, is4 million workers will leave the Canadian
workforce on paper in the next six years.
4 million.
We only got 21. So that they haveto be replaced before we grow.
Uh, like another percentagepoint, if you will.
We're gotta replace 4 millionworkers and it's in work.
(27:32):
We haven't really been planning toreplace, uh, we, we've been producing
more white collar workers thanblue collar workers, for instance.
And we talk about some of theinfrastructure bill that we need to do
when we talk about electrification thatwe wanna do to bring, you know, cleaner,
cleaner, um, solutions to the market.
(27:52):
We need a lot of workers,um, to do all of this stuff.
We don't have them, so you're gonnahave to invest in some sort of.
You know, plant and equipment andtechnology that's gonna enable us to
make our workers more productive, whichleads to a whole bunch of other good
benefits, which we can talk about later.
My point of the story is, is thatAI is a critical piece of that.
(28:15):
AI is a critical piece of that, andI think I'm excited for that because,
because we have a big shortage coming.
With AI, it's burning more, itneeds more energy than ever before.
So I normally start my conversations atthe CEO round tables that I have, that
there's two things that we know for sure.
(28:36):
We're gonna have a shortage ofworkers and we're gonna have a
shortage of energy, which we wouldn'tnecessarily said that 10 years ago.
But AI is just consuming more energythan we ever thought it would, would do.
The second thing with AI that we don'treally know how, how, how disruptive
it's going to be, and one end of thespectrum will hear that it's gonna cause
(28:59):
massive displacement and unemployment.
The other end of the spectrum is thatevery other technology revolution,
it's created more need for workers,
which takes us back to problem numberone, which is we, we don't have
enough to do what, what we can see.
So that although thosetwo can coexist. Yes.
In the transition, right?
(29:19):
Indeed.
Yeah.
Well, you'd hope that it'd be,there's a nice way, there's a nice
story end of this if, if, you know,they come together in the right way.
Um, but yeah, ai, the other thingwith AI is we, we don't really
know how it's gonna fall out.
We don't fully understand how it works.
That keeps me occupied.
In my, in my musingswhen, when I have time.
(29:42):
How do you think Canada'spositioned for this revolution?
Well, on paper, uh, we've got the besttalent pound for pound in the world.
Sitting here in front of you,remember my comment earlier, we're a
small country, but pound for pound.
Um, we've proven ourselves.
It was a forward investment is myunderstanding, in the nineties.
And we're positioned well,uh, one of, one of, uh.
(30:07):
A CEO from one of the big tech, uh,giants was up from Silicon Valley
about, uh, 12, 18 months ago.
And we were talking 'cause of one ofour partners, and, uh, they said, uh,
why don't, why isn't Canada adopting AI?
Um, because you gotsuch terrific AI talent.
(30:27):
And I said, yeah, we do.
We'd like to think that.
And I said, what are you here for?
He said to recruit that AI talent.
Um, so we're acknowledged as havinga reliable, good source of AI talent.
But then everyone knows that our,um, adoption rate lags a will.
(30:48):
There's a myriad of
possibilities as to why that is.
Some of 'em might relate back to whatwe're talking about earlier, um, about
we haven't had our backs against thewall yet and uh, I think we're coming up
to that backs against the wall moment.
And I think we've, we're poised toreally get that return out of AI that's
been promising for many, many years.
Well, I, I, I wonder about the tug andthe push and pull here to, to some extent
(31:12):
'cause it yet in, in yet another episodein the, uh, Leapfrog eries here we
spoke to the president of University ofWaterloo, and you know, that is a talent
pool for Silicon Valley, one of its primetalent pools for, uh, for Silicon Valley.
Um.
The capital that's there,the dynamism that's there,
(31:33):
you know, that's a real draw.
But will some of the barriers that arebeing put up in the United States to,
you know, to foreign talent, um, uh,values issues, which are so important
to everybody, but, you know, to youngerpeople in particular, I, I don't know how
that's gonna play out and if that creates,you know, a greater opportunity for you.
I, I think, uh, I think on,you've touched on a few things.
(31:54):
I, I think the conditions are set.
Or situation set for us to put in theconditions to attract even more talent,
not withstanding the talent that we'reproducing from world class institutions
like University or World Waterloo when itcomes to technology and AI and the like.
So what does that mean?
(32:16):
That means that we gotta createenvironment where people want
to come and build companies.
Um, that are backed by AI and we've gota lot of startups in this country, a lot
of terrific startups in this country, butwe've gotta get them to scale and they've
gotta become these unicorns and decacorns.
And the way that they becomeunicorns and decacorns is that the
(32:36):
rest of the corporate communityand government community needs to
embrace Canadian technology startups.
If that domino falls, then I thinkit's gonna be a tremendous advantage.
Why?
Because we've already got theinstitutions to produce these people.
Now it's like a machine.
Uh, it's like an industrial machine.
(32:57):
All we gotta do is create the outletvalve for it, and it's gonna be
the corporates and governments.
When I say corporates and governments,we gotta use Canadian technology.
We gotta give that Canadian scale upthe first opportunity, uh, to build
on their software, to build on theirtechnology to make it successful.
Uh, and it won't onlyjust be successful here.
(33:18):
It'll play into that diversificationcomment that I made earlier.
Because then it becomes marketableto the rest of the world.
Nothing's more dishearteningfor the Canadian scale up.
When somebody sort of said,who uses your software?
Who uses your technology, and you cannotname a Canadian organization of scale
that uses it, you're out of the water.
(33:40):
Out of the water already and then,and then even worse, if you convince
that non-Canadian organizationto use your technology that.
Organization becomes the anchorclient, which inevitably some
shareholder down the track says.
Why are you located inCanada in the first place?
Shouldn't you be next to your clientswho are all located in Country X
(34:00):
or Y or Z or in our case, the us?
So I think it's therebacks against the wall.
We start embracing and supportingCanadian organizations, which we are
doing in the consumer space at present.
Just gotta do it in the technology space.
And I see some of the institutionsstarting to see that and starting to do
(34:20):
that and, and I, I think we're gonna.
We are gonna produce a fewunicorns and decos as a result.
Good.
I think that the magic sauce that weneed to talk about as we enter the
clubhouse turn of this conversation isleadership, because none of this happens
without, uh, without good leadership.
And I know this is a hugepreoccupation of yours.
You only have to be at Deloittefor 10 minutes to, to learn that.
(34:43):
So.
What are you seeing as you go out there,as you interact with, uh, with everybody?
Is leadership rising to this challenge?
And then I wanna, I wanna unpackwhat kind of leadership, what,
what we need in, uh, in that way.
I have a privileged situation toget across this great country, and
I see a lot of different shapesand sizes when it comes to the
(35:06):
organizations that we deal with.
Private, public listed, not listed,um, private equity backed, um, family
capital backed, uh, and the like.
The best versions of what I see out,uh, are the ones that the leaders
that are taking the long-termview, seeing past, you know, the,
the current clouds, if you will.
(35:27):
Seeing the opportunity or the promisethat some of the things that we've spoken
about and they're leading with theiraction, they're putting capital at risk.
I've seen a terrific example ofa manufacturing company that is
tripling its output for export.Tripling its output for export.
Um, taken, taken, um, theirorganization, which is family back,
(35:51):
not their family, but the leaderconvinced the family to triple.
Their export in a, in what is going to bea really rough tariff period trade period.
Nonetheless, seeing pastthat, making that investment.
Actually, I've heard other, otherorganizations, large mid-market,
which is what this country's built on.
(36:12):
To my understanding, large mid marketclients that are just leading with
their capital because they've taken that5, 10, 20 year view into the future.
Um, that's the type ofleadership that we need Now.
It's easier, perhaps for a familyto see 10 years and 20 years into
the future than a tenured CEO thatmight be here for four years, six
(36:35):
years, eight years, or 10 years.
Or, or, or a short term investor.
Or a short term.
Or a short term investor.
But yeah, it's those investorsthat are looking past that.
We need more of that sort of stuff.
And that comes with, it comes a bitof pain perhaps, or comes with it
a bit of patience in the short termto your point around maybe you can
make a quicker buck somewhere else,but when you're building nations.
(36:58):
And sustainable nations.
You need sustainable communities.
And sustainable communities are builtby these business that are making
long-term plays and long-term investments.
And I'm seeing that across thecountry, but it's not playing
out at the top end, if you will.
It's playing out at Canada'sheartland, that mid-market, um, medium.
(37:19):
Second generation familybusinesses, if you will.
And when you talk about, um, rallying thepeople who are working for you around in
uncertain times and in dangerous times,in times of, you know, geopolitical
change, technological change, youknow, really, really sweeping change.
One of the things that I, I'veseen you talking about it,
(37:39):
I want you to explain that.
Um, is, is empathy, vulnerability,um, just, um, uh, you know,
showing your human side, I guess?
Or is that an importantpart of the equation?
I think it is.
Um, I think it is.
Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it that way.
I just mentioned it a couple of times, myown anxieties around what's transpiring,
(38:02):
and I think I'm equipped more thanmost to understand what's happening if
you don't understand what's happening.
What chance have you, you know,really got to move forward?
You know, I've heard it described as ina situation that there's fight or flight.
I heard it described, it's notactually, there's not much fight in
any of us, and that's me included.
It's freeze or flight.
(38:24):
Um, so if, if you don't demonstrate someempathy, um, 'cause I think the key to
all of this is you've gotta move on.
You've gotta move forward If you freeze.
Run away and hide, it's notgonna get better for yourself.
So I think the empathy is theimportant part to say, I'm here, I'm
not gonna leave you behind 'cause Iknow that's gonna be a bad outcome.
(38:45):
I need to understand your situation.
I need to help you understand, um,the other situation, which is to keep
moving forward, to take those risksto suffer a little bit as we build
the, the next, whatever that is.
I'm guaranteed it's notwhat it was yesterday.
It's not what it was yesterday, butwe're gonna figure it out together.
(39:07):
And when we stumble and fall, we pick eachother up, uh, and we keep moving forward.
I can't see a, this is apassionate point of mine.
I can't see how are we gonnathrive individually if the
systems around us are broken.
It's a false economy tosort of say, I'm, I'm okay.
Everyone else.
Um, bad luck for them.
(39:29):
It mightn't hurt you in yourgeneration, but the next generation,
it's gonna be a disaster.
Yeah.
We all live in the ecosystem,you know, regardless.
Right.
Final question.
Um, so, you know, we've spoken aboutthe state of the nation, we've spoken
about, uh, the state of leadership.
I wanna put those twotogether for a second.
(39:49):
How do you think, um.
We should be regarding the leadershipof the country, uh, and getting
these things you're talking about.
Right?
You know, tone at the top, if you will.
There's tone at the top.
It's not about what yousay, it's what you do.
And we gotta do some things.
(40:11):
So the leadership, and I sayleadership at the top, but it's
also leadership as a citizen.
We can get onto other topics asleadership, as a citizen, as a
citizen, we live in a community.
We've got a socialcontract with each other.
Uh, if, if we opt out of that, that'snot leadership that's gonna have a
detrimental effect, um, on, on ourcommunities, our smallest communities
(40:35):
before it gets up at, up to theprovincial and, and, and country levels.
So leadership is at all levels.
We shouldn't just defer.
Or outsource leadership just toPrime Minister Kearney who holds
the most privileged leadershipposition in the country.
It's every layer underneath thatwhere we should step forward, um,
(40:56):
and play our role in leadership.
And that to me is not talking aboutit, that is about doing it, um,
doing whatever needs to be done.
So I'm not sure if that's right onwhat your, your question, but I just,
we need more action and we've gottatake some personal accountability.
To, to step forward and lead inour particular way, whatever it is.
(41:17):
Well, I think where that leaves usis needing to have a conversation
at the end of the year, notjust in the middle of the year.
You know, when there's been more timeto see how action is, uh, is taking or
not taking a hundred, a hundred percent.
And I'm, I'm not, I'm an optimist, glasshalf full, whatever you want to call that.
I think we're gonna see more thanenough proof points to see that.
(41:39):
This country will start to getmoving and then the proverbial
snowball is gonna grow.
And I think it's gonna be done with ourbacks against the wall to start with.
It's gonna be hard, and we got whenanything's hard, it's better when
we do it together and we do it withempathy and we include along the
way such that when we build up thenew system of the future, everyone's
(42:01):
gonna prosper as a result of that.
But we need those firstfew dominoes to fall.
We need some action that's gonna inspireus to accelerate towards that future.
And as I said, I think this nextdecade could be one of the best that
Canada's had in our short history Bill.
Um, this is one of the bestconversations, uh, the Leaf Rock Series
had in this short history as well.
(42:21):
And I wanna thank you for the, uh, classhalf full take on, uh, on where we're
going and where we can particularly go.
As a country, you know,prosperity doesn't, um, um,
doesn't grow out of nowhere.
Uh, uh, you know, as you say, it,it, it lives in a social context.
And if we're, um, going to continue todo well as a country, that idea that, you
(42:42):
know, we have to, um, the relationshipbetween values and value was, uh, as
a certain Prime Minister wrote in a.
Uh, several years ago was,uh, is, is, is quite critical.
So, you know, thank you forchilling the same soil and
sharing that, uh, with us today.
And, um, I, you know, just onbehalf of listeners, um, uh,
(43:03):
it was a great conversation.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, so that was ourdiscussion for today.
A very good discussion, and nowfor you, our dear listeners.
Thank you.
We have a little bit of newsto impart at the end some
(43:24):
housekeeping and favors to ask.
So one, we want you to know thatwe're taking a break for August,
but we are leaving you with afull suite of podcast listening.
Pleasure to catch up on.
The Leapfrog series has hosted some greatguests over the last couple of months, and
it's plumb the depths with them of suchmatters as how we truly get things built
(43:45):
in the country, how we truly diversifyour trade relationships, how we truly.
Reform our tax system inorder to attract investment.
We put AI to work to makeus more competitive and more
in control of our lives.
We put our resources to work.
We develop, attract, and retain talent.
(44:05):
In other words, how we'll be moresovereign and more prosperous.
We've discussed all of those subjectsand we invite you to have a listen
to the catalog over the summer.
Two, and don't listen in isolation.
Tell your friends, tell your coworkers,tell your hairstylist, tell your
lifeguard, your pickleball partner.
We want everyone to be able toshare in the great experience we
(44:29):
think we're having, talking aboutwhat a leapfrog nation looks like.
Three share rate, follow sendtips to us for improvement.
Tell us how we can help you andtell us what you want to hear
about as we go forward, and thencome back and join us in the fall.
For more of full circle.
Finally, Canada matters to all of usin this country is the object of great
(44:51):
affection and respected home and abroad.
We matter and we can matter more.
So give yourself a pat on the back.
Everybody's been contributing, andwe all need to be participants in as
many conversations as we can, as tohow we are going to today, today's
circumstances in the world around usto turn Canada into a leapfrog nation.
(45:13):
Okay?
You have your assignments.
I look forward to seeing you.
I actually never get to seeyou, but I kind of imagine
what you look like in the fall.
I'm Edward Greenspon, and this has beenin Full Circle: The Leapfrog Series.
Have a great rest of summer.
Hi everyone.
I'm Ed Greenspon and I'm delighted tobe with you today for another edition
of Full Circle (00:07):
The Leapfrog Series.
Today we speak with Anthony Viel.
AV as he's universally known, ChiefExecutive Officer of Deloitte Canada
and Chile. AV interacts with justabout every business and public
sector leader in the country.
As head of the largest professionalservices firm in Canada, he has
(00:27):
eyes on what's moving out there.
Since becoming CEO in 2019, Igotta say, a lot has been moving.
AV has guided Deloitte through anunprecedented onslaught of global
Challenges (00:37):
COVID-19, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the geopolitical competition
between China and the United States,
inflation and affordability, supply chaindisruptions, the climate crisis. The
energy transition, the AI revolution.
Of course, the Trump presidency.
As many of you know by now, Full Circlehas been dedicated in recent months
(01:01):
to what we call the Leapfrog series.
We have been exploring how Canadacan turn the challenges thrown our
way into leapfrog opportunities.
No more boiling frog syndrome. Usingthe present sense of crisis to shake
the frog out of its slumber and catapultthe country to a more dynamic future.
(01:21):
Normally on The Leapfrog Series,we feature both an organizational
leader and a Deloitte partner.
We've asked AV today to fillboth roles in this last episode
before we go on hiatus for the rest of thesummer, we will talk about the risks and
opportunities facing Canadian governments,businesses, and people, what actions
need to be taken and the leadershipqualities required to pull it off
(01:44):
So, let's get at it.
Thanks for joining us today, AV.
Thank you, Ed, for having me.
I'm, I'm excited.
But as I heard that list, we'vebeen through a lot already.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It is daunting.
And actually, I kind of wanted tosay that, you know, since becoming
a CEO, and that's a number of yearsnow, uh, you've been, you know, you
probably landed a quiet day, right?
(02:06):
Uh, not a single quiet day, but thefirst quarter this year. You know,
with an unconventional president,threatening to end the world
order and Canada's place in it,
you know, that's been, I think,
particularly disruptive.
When did you begin to see thatsomething very different was at a hand?
Yeah.
Uh, it's interesting, you, you'vesaid the first quarter, I, I would
suggest that it, it started probablya quarter before that as well.
(02:30):
I mean, my Canadian history is notas solid as yours of, uh, but the
amount of elections that we had ina six-month period, I think, uh, I
hate using the word unprecedented wasunprecedented, and that caused a lot of.
Pause.
So it's almost like you talkabout agility when you're moving,
it's really easy to be, oreasier to be agile. When you stop,
(02:54):
and we were stopped, uh, and in ourtrack, so to speak, waiting for a
few things to settle, not the leastof which the federal election.
And then that coincideswith, you know, what started
transpire in the first quarter.
So it's almost like we're flat footed.
Um, uh, and I don't know if you'vehad others speak to you, uh,
like that on this podcast, butit was like we were flat-footed.
(03:17):
You're right.
There was a lot, you know, there wasthe Trump election, there was the
change in the liberal leadership.
There was a federal election, there wasan Ontario election and certain other
provinces, you know, in that period.
Yeah, there was a lot of, youknow, as you say, settling,
into, um, how are the teams, who are theteams that are gonna lead us, uh, to this?
Right?
Indeed.
And I think as a citizen, you know,all of us felt that anxiety to
(03:41):
sort of say, we need to respond.
Not sure how to respond, but noone's in a position to respond
'cause we're all waiting for all thecomponent, uh, to settle down to, to get
into rhythm, to be able to, you know,do what needs to be done, whether you're
in government, business or otherwise.
And so, you know, there's a bit of that,
um, anxiousness, if you will, um, as well.
(04:02):
And I think that impacted us notonly in the business context, but
personally as, as citizens at large.
When would you say you began to respond?
Like what, what was the triggerfor you to begin to respond?
Well, uh, it was, it was interesting.
I, and I, I don't know what happened, butin a Deloitte we just sort of recognized,
(04:22):
um, that this was our moment as
Canada.
These, we didn't necessarilychoose this path.
We didn't choose this situation,but, uh, we sort of said, Hey,
there's something to be done here.
And the way that we mobilizeinternally, we, we actually called
it Canadian Economic Independence.
Uh, and from that, um, it sort of give usa bit of a, a mantra internally to sort
(04:47):
of say, Hey, we've gotta play a role,
as a prominent, um, corporate, if youwill, or prominent organization right
across the country, uh, as um, youknow, for want of a better word, as
you know, members of our communitiesaround the country, as individuals and as
citizens, this is a time to move forward'cause Canada needs, needs that unity.
(05:11):
Um, and, and, and
ultimately we needed a direction, and Ithink we're getting that direction now.
So that would've been early on, aroundFebruary, I guess, uh, the sort of penny
dropped and, and, uh, I was hauling folkin, in office every two weeks to talk
about Canadian economic independence.
And I was trying to pitch it as notthis uncertainty, ambiguous future
(05:38):
per se, but rather what can we do?
And why, in a sense, why as acorporate leader did you feel
the need to be doing that?
Well, first and foremost, Iknow I'm not alone in this.
Um, I think that, uh, you know, a lotof the folk that I interact with, CEOs
across the country felt they had a highercalling to play a role as, as a human,
(05:59):
as a citizen, as much as the leadersof their respective organizations.
Um, so.
I can't describe what was the triggernecessarily for them, but for me it was
just sort of say, if we're not gonnado something, we being Deloitte, if I'm
not going to do something as a CEO atDeloitte, who is? Who's going to do that?
(06:21):
And it's not to say that we could,we alone can do it, but we need a
collective of individuals then inthe, in these positions in government,
outside government, communityleaders, et cetera, that's just
gonna step forward, put our handup and say, we're ready to go.
Which way do we go together?
We now have entered the,uh, second half of the year.
(06:41):
Um, things are still in motion allaround us, but the people who, with
whom you interact across the country,how would you say, given that those
moments, how are they acting differently?
How are they managingand leading differently?
Yeah, I think that the.
I still think there's acouple of dominoes to fall.
Let me just say that.
(07:04):
But at the first quarter of theyear, there was that anxiety
that I mentioned there earlier.
There was that uncertainty aroundhow the federal, how federal
election was going to fall.
There was some uncertainty aboutwhat the policies were going to be.
Um, uh, and it was more question marks of,you know, who's gonna lead this country?
(07:27):
Uh, what, what are theirpolicies going to be?
How effective they're going to beagainst this uncertainty, the Trump
administration being one of them.
Uh, and I think now we, we'vegot over our anxiety with that.
Stability has come a whole raft of
ideas on how to move forward.
The beauty is too, Ed, and I'vebeen here 10 years in this country,
(07:51):
they're the same things that we talkedabout 10 years ago in many respects.
So it's not as if they're newand out of the ether, per se.
They're things that we knew hadto happen, but for one reason or
another we never really took them on.
So, I see us now to say we know what to do.
We've been speaking about it fora long time, so it's not new.
(08:12):
It's almost like we've analyzedit every which way that we can.
Now,
we just needed a couple ofdominoes to fall, and I think
we're all ready to get in line.
Um, and that, and when I say getin line, I look at it, uh, in,
in the, in the context of whatI call no regret strategies.
And you talked about it at the top ofthe call, productivity being one of them.
(08:36):
There's no regret in movingforward there, and we see
leaders across the country embracingproductivity, particularly when it
comes to technology. Diversification,
Um, we all, we saw a flavor of this comingout of the pandemic, and we've just seen
it being reinforced in the last six monthswhen it comes to supply chain, where are
(08:58):
we getting the things that we need, thecritical things that we need, and, and
how do we de-risk those supply chains?
The, the thing that's come with thelast six months has been diversification
away from our sole dependencyon the US market for prosperity.
That's a new thing.
Um, but the concept of diversificationhas been in place for a while.
(09:21):
And then we talk about theother things that hold us back.
And this has been my fascinationsince I've got in this country.
The interprovincial barriers.
And not only for trade, um,but the mobility of talent.
I mean, Canada's a small country andhow much we constrain the mobility of
talent to where the actual opportunitiesare, I think is a no regret strategy
(09:43):
to work on that, even for accountants,
which is still a head scratcher for me.
So is that a fascination you'vebeen living with with 10 years.
I first wrote about this in thelate 1980s, so, uh, I've been
living with it in, in two centuries.
Uhhuh, uh, practically.
Um, but was it different inAustralia when you say that?
(10:04):
Well, that's, that's the fascination.
I mean, the way people ask me what'sthe difference between Australia
and Canada, and this is one of them.It's almost like the realization
that we're a small country.
Um, we have limited resources.
We have to be wise in theway in which we deploy them.
We have to work together.
The countries are built prettymuch exactly the same way.
(10:26):
Um, the nuance here locally, and Isay it's a good nuance as Quebec,
but everything else is pretty muchthe same, same big country, spread
out population and all the goods andgood, and the good things and the
difficult things that come with it.
Pretty much the same.
In the eighties, I was studyingeconomics, not practicing, um,
(10:48):
uh, or working, I should say.
Uh, but we had that epiphany, if youwill, as a nation back in the 80s.
We're just not that big.
Uh, and for all the goodreasons that federation was.
Set up, we were taking down barriers then.
So, um, you know, we had one stockexchange and then we had one regulator
(11:10):
for companies and securities, andwe had one, one of everything where
we seem to have 10 here or 11 here.
Well, securities regulator, asyou know, is something, a national
one that we, um, have tried.
And tried and tried.
You know, when, when, when, as you'redescribing, Australia was beginning to
take that down and unify the economy,
(11:31):
and you know, we have a Prime Ministernow who talks about a single economy.
Uh, I was based in Europe for theglobe, and Europe was unifying around
a concept they called Europe 1992.
And I remember doing, spending timewith, uh, Donald McDonald, uh, the
author of the McDonald Commission,who was then the high commissioner
in the UK and saying, you know.
Why can't we get this done in Canada?
(11:51):
And he was pretty worked up about whatwe're now talking about still years later.
I wonder though if that makes youfeel, you know, as you say, for 10
years we've been talking about the samethings and for even longer on some of
these items, there must be a reasonwhy they defy their logical conclusion.
(12:11):
Why do you think that is?
That's a loaded question.
I think Canada
has done a lot of things well such thatwe've lived as Canadians very, very well.
And I know today some listenersmight say that's not exactly the
case for everyone, and I get that.
But when you live well, and you'reright on the doorstep of the
(12:35):
largest economy, the hard stuff,you know, we mightn't take on.
I've heard other others sortof say we're a complacent.
When you're isolated on the other side ofthe hemisphere and you know, you, you're
seven hours to get outta your countryon a, on a, on a plane, so to speak,
(12:57):
and you don't have that access to globalmarkets like we do enjoy here in Canada.
Sometimes you don't have achoice, so backs against the wall.
I back Australians to come up with a,a solution backs against the wall in
Canada we ll come up with a solution.
And now our park is against that wall.
Um, I'll say this carefully enthusiastic
(13:21):
'cause I think you're gonna see thebest of Canada in these next 10 years.
Uh, and, uh, like the Canadiansthat built this country several
decades ago, uh, I believe.
So that of course is the leapfrog, uh,concept in a way that, you know, we
have been a boiling frog as you're, asyou're describing, uh, not in everything.
(13:43):
Obviously it's a country that's asuccessful country, um, in the world.
But now, you know, now is themoment where we can leapfrog.
So let's assess those four no regretsthat you talked about a moment ago.
Sure.
How are they trending?
Well, I mean, the rhetoric is terrific.
Um, um, I'm expecting,
personally, in the next month or so,we're gonna see some, those few first few
(14:06):
dominoes to fall is what I'm predicting.
Um, if I was in any sort ofposition, I imagine I'd be pushing
some of those dominoes over,so I'm expecting them to occur.
What do I mean by that?
I think we're gonna get some clarityaround, you know, what are, what
are some nationally critical nation-building projects that we need to
get it done across this country?
(14:26):
And the prime minister's been prettyforthright in what they could look like.
Once we see the clarity and whatcomes with and, and the support
that comes with there, I thinkthat's gonna be a, a validation that
we're on the, on the right path.
Um, the, we're already seen to see,uh, already seeing some movement
on the Interprovincial trade staff.
(14:47):
I'm quite enthusiastic about that.
Um.
Uh, and you know, I think thatthat's gonna come part and parcel
with some of these nationalnation building, um, projects.
I think they, that there's gonnabe a bit of a package that'll
come down the line there.
I'm incredibly enthusiasticwith the re-engagement of India.
(15:07):
Uh, you know, this, that's aneconomy that's going somewhere.
Uh, and also the re-engagementback into UK and Europe.
Something that I thinkwe've deprioritized.
Some of our colleagues here at Deloittehave been telling me for 10 years
about we, we are in a, in a favoreduh, situation compared to some of
our global competitors when it comesto free trade agreements as well.
(15:30):
So, which gets us access to twothirds of the world economy.
The, the, the track's already been laid.
We just gotta put thetrain on those tracks.
So I see the moves into uk, Europe, themoves into India, dare I say it, the moves
down in other parts of Asia Pacific, thelikes of Australia, Japan, et cetera.
Um, I can get really, I'm, I'm seeing thatnow, so I'm really excited about that.
(15:55):
I don't wanna put any gloom on thisbecause I think there's a lot of
potential as, as, as you obviously do.
Um.
But if the pressure comes off, youknow, we kind of saw that a little bit
during the election campaign when, uh,president Trump didn't mention Canada
for three weeks and people kind of went,okay, it's, you know, maybe it's over.
Um, uh, but it wasn't over.
(16:16):
If the pressure comes off,do you worry about us just
shifting back into complacency?
I do.
100%
I mean, I've done enough study ofpsychology and if we, I mean, what
would lead us to believe that?
Um.
If we got a, a near miss, asI described it, uh, use safety
parlance, you have a near miss.
(16:38):
You go, whew, that was lucky.
And then you keep on doingthe same thing going forward.
Um, I am, I am a, a, a bitconcerned about that for sure.
The one thing though that I think,um, the one thing though that could
be in our favor here is that thepressure might come off as directly,
(16:59):
uh, depending on the outcomes of someof these trade discussions that everyone
knows about, but the, the trade routesof the world have changed. And so we're
gonna have to change a little anyway.
So even if the pressure comes off, I thinkthere's still enough impetus for change.
(17:20):
Um, but yeah, I think it's abig, it's a legitimate concern.
Now, I was struck by the economicsdepartment here at Deloitte.
The, uh, very excellent economicsdepartment did a study on,
on diversification and oninterprovincial trade barriers.
(17:42):
And you can see that inter provincialtrade counts for 18% of our GDP and it
counted for about a quarter of our GDP
30, 40 years ago, so that GDP has gonemore into United States trade and one
would not want that to be going down.
But nonetheless, there'spotential at home.
(18:03):
And obviously with what's beenhappening in Asia for the last,
uh, you know, 20 years or more,there's obviously, uh, great.
Potentially, you mentioned Europe,you know, reengaging with Europe.
So there's a lot of markets, um,in the world, but it's easiest to
do the market next door, right?
Yeah, and that was one of, again,I had a lot of fascinations
(18:24):
that come to this country.
I love this country.
Um, and it's, as we mentioned earlier,we've done particularly well, which
sometimes I think we understate it,but we have, and if you don't believe
that, go to another country and you'll,you'll see we're done particularly well.
But, um, passant to dealnorth, south instead of east,
west became like the default.
(18:47):
Which sort of is a bit of a head scratchof, for me to come from a country that
sort of had that unification moment 40years ago where you're trying to look a,
you're trying to look after each other.
Well, you didn't, youdidn't have an easy option.
No, there was no easy option.
Yeah.
You had to swim.
Oh, push.
You know, it was, there'sno, uh, no easy option.
But uh, that just strikes me as odd.
(19:09):
There is, there, helpinglift everybody else up,
builds the system of which we willrefer to as the economy of Canada.
Collectively, that's better outcomesfor everyone within that system.
One of the things we've come tounderstand in global economics, again
over the last 10, 20 years is the tradeand investment are closely linked.
(19:31):
They're intertwined with one another.
So there's those markets out there, butthere's also international investors
who may have grown wary of Canada duringthis period that you're describing.
What do we need to do to reallyto truly grab their attention?
Yes.
Uh, well, well, again, the wind's blowingback in our direction here because in
(19:52):
the, because of that reordering of tradeflows, that requires investors to balance
their portfolios accordingly and that alot of 'em are coming up because of what's
transpired over the last decade or two.
They're underweight in Canada, sothey want to get things into Canada.
They want to get capital into Canada.
Um, that's point number one.
So wind behind this inthat front, um, I think.
(20:16):
Not think.
We recently convened a table and gotan understanding of how, how do we
provide a how to book to our countryabout how to accelerate infrastructure.
We could have picked a whole bunchof stuff, but infrastructure build in
the context of energy, the number onereason that come out from that table.
Very learned table.
(20:36):
This is not a Deloitte perspective per se.
This is coming from the peoplewho actually make these types
of investment with certainty.
Give me some certainty.
Certainly in the context ofyou're not gonna reverse it.
The, the situation in five or 10or 15 years time that makes this
investment, um, not, um, viable,but just gimme some certainty.
(21:00):
I can do the rest. I can bring, Ican get the capital, I can price it
accordingly, I can do the risk management.
But if you gimme a runway on whichI can get the return that I need to
get out of these types of investment.
So I understand from, from what I read
that, uh, we're putting in place, uh,uh, the appropriate infrastructure
to give that sort of certainty.
(21:21):
And if we get that, I thinkthat's the number one inhibitor.
I sometimes wonder because, youknow, we talk, um, a lot about
regulation and permitting andneeding to get certainty around that.
Um, we talk a little bit less abouttaxation and the government has
talked about corporate taxation.
You know, Ireland many years agoattracted the attention of the
(21:43):
world by making some tax changes.
I wonder if there's, you know, whetherit's in the regulatory or whether
it's in the taxation area, wherever,wherever it's in immigration, wherever
it may be, if there's a couple ofjust big signals that you send out.
Yeah.
Well, tax is certainly one of the levers.
Um, but we didn't hear that, um, throughthat table that I just mentioned.
(22:06):
We do hear that every day in thecontext of venturing, uh, building
new companies in particular.
Um, but certainly we're, youknow, I think it's universally
understood we're not tax competitive,
uh, at present.
The permitting's adifferent issue as well.
I think it's not the permitting perse, it's the 15 permittings on the
(22:29):
same topic through the various levelsof government, uh, and the like,
that gets very, very frustrating.
The point I wanna make here is that thereare definitely things we can do better.
Streamlining the permitting,simplifying our regulation, you know,
making our tax, um, more competitive.
(22:50):
But if you can give me some runway,10, 15 years, 20 years of certainty.
That you can grandfather fromgovernment to government, from
federal to provincial, municipal.
If you can gimme that certainty, I candeal with what's currently on the table.
You can price all the other risks,you can price all the other stuff in.
(23:11):
And you know what, we've probablygot a luxury here because the stuff
that we've got the rest of the worldwants, like, you know, we, we can
price it in and it'll be paid for
'cause we've got some terrific stuffthat not many can replicate at a scale.
So it makes us competitive,notwithstanding all
those other limitations.
Well, to that point, you know, on theprevious episode to this episode we talked
(23:34):
about, uh, natural gas and LNG Canada'sfirst shipments of, you know, first
shipments offshore of Canadian gas ever.
Um, you know, that's something theworld seems to want, want and need.
Oh, I'd throw it in need.
We know it's a, we know it's not,
Um,
it is not the cleanest fuel, but it'scleaner than most, and we know the
(23:56):
rest, uh, of the world is burning moreharmful fuel to do what they have to do.
Uh, and we won't get into technologybecause that's, that's one of
the drivers at, at, at present.
But my, my point is this, is that if youtake a step back and say, um, liquified
natural gas, and now as I understandit's the best in the world, um, if we
(24:18):
take that, uh, we're gonna be doingmore of a favor, um, to the planet,
given the other circumstances that areplaying out in other parts of the world.
I.
They're, they're, they're,they're burning dirt, dirtier
fuel, if you will, to do that.
So I was really excited about that.
I come from a country of liquified naturalgas, so I can, I can actually spell L, LNG.
(24:42):
Um, so I know, I know how good it can be.
Well, people helped you with that one.
Yeah, no, indeed, indeed, indeed.
But yeah, it's, I, I thinkthat was exciting and I think
that's a gift to the planet.
And I truly do.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I think, um, you know, assomebody who's lives in this country,
um, uh, most of my life outside thecountry for four or five years, but
most of my life, you know, the factthat we can now export oil offshore
(25:05):
at, at scale, and that we can exportgas offshore at scale, you know, we can
already see that's adding almost 1%.
To our GDP, just those two plants.
And there's more to come and, and,uh, and as you say, the world needs
it both because it's in the, in, inthe case of gas cleaner fuel, but
it's also more secure fuel in a worldthat's worried about security and
(25:26):
economic and, uh, military security ifyou will have fused in so many ways.
Indeed, indeed.
And, and I don't want, I don't wantit to come across the, the wrong way,
but LNG is a step up and, uh,
it's a real opportunity for thatnot many countries have, and this
is an advantage that we have and Ithink we can do some good with it.
(25:56):
So, let's talk about AI.
We've been hinting at talkingabout AI, so let's get there.
You know, we, we understand, um,that Canada has an opportunity.
The world has an opportunity.
Um.
We also know that, um, uh, that whilethis should add greater efficiency
and greater possibilities, that it,um, that it's disruptive in itself and
(26:20):
people are concerned about their jobs.
So how do we get that balance rightto be able to move forward on the
good, the license to move forward?
So, um, this is, this is a huge topic.
Um, it's a huge topic that brings a lotof an, uh, anxiety and consternation
depending on who you're talking to.
At one end of the spectrum, we've gota demographic shift happening in the,
(26:45):
um, that we've never seen before, andwe're not quite sure how that's gonna
shake out in the context of gettingthe things that need to be done.
On continents with the exceptionof Africa, uh, you mean, you mean
in a sense not enough workers?
Not, not enough workers todo what needs to be done.
So you need a lever there to, um, wehave to invest in productivity, um, to
(27:08):
be able to cover some of those gaps.
Um, the stat here, as I understand it, is4 million workers will leave the Canadian
workforce on paper in the next six years.
4 million.
We only got 21. So that they haveto be replaced before we grow.
Uh, like another percentagepoint, if you will.
We're gotta replace 4 millionworkers and it's in work.
(27:32):
We haven't really been planning toreplace, uh, we, we've been producing
more white collar workers thanblue collar workers, for instance.
And we talk about some of theinfrastructure bill that we need to do
when we talk about electrification thatwe wanna do to bring, you know, cleaner,
cleaner, um, solutions to the market.
(27:52):
We need a lot of workers,um, to do all of this stuff.
We don't have them, so you're gonnahave to invest in some sort of.
You know, plant and equipment andtechnology that's gonna enable us to
make our workers more productive, whichleads to a whole bunch of other good
benefits, which we can talk about later.
My point of the story is, is thatAI is a critical piece of that.
(28:15):
AI is a critical piece of that, andI think I'm excited for that because,
because we have a big shortage coming.
With AI, it's burning more, itneeds more energy than ever before.
So I normally start my conversations atthe CEO round tables that I have, that
there's two things that we know for sure.
(28:36):
We're gonna have a shortage ofworkers and we're gonna have a
shortage of energy, which we wouldn'tnecessarily said that 10 years ago.
But AI is just consuming more energythan we ever thought it would, would do.
The second thing with AI that we don'treally know how, how, how disruptive
it's going to be, and one end of thespectrum will hear that it's gonna cause
(28:59):
massive displacement and unemployment.
The other end of the spectrum is thatevery other technology revolution,
it's created more need for workers,
which takes us back to problem numberone, which is we, we don't have
enough to do what, what we can see.
So that although thosetwo can coexist. Yes.
In the transition, right?
(29:19):
Indeed.
Yeah.
Well, you'd hope that it'd be,there's a nice way, there's a nice
story end of this if, if, you know,they come together in the right way.
Um, but yeah, ai, the other thingwith AI is we, we don't really
know how it's gonna fall out.
We don't fully understand how it works.
That keeps me occupied.
In my, in my musingswhen, when I have time.
(29:42):
How do you think Canada'spositioned for this revolution?
Well, on paper, uh, we've got the besttalent pound for pound in the world.
Sitting here in front of you,remember my comment earlier, we're a
small country, but pound for pound.
Um, we've proven ourselves.
It was a forward investment is myunderstanding, in the nineties.
And we're positioned well,uh, one of, one of, uh.
(30:07):
A CEO from one of the big tech, uh,giants was up from Silicon Valley
about, uh, 12, 18 months ago.
And we were talking 'cause of one ofour partners, and, uh, they said, uh,
why don't, why isn't Canada adopting AI?
Um, because you gotsuch terrific AI talent.
(30:27):
And I said, yeah, we do.
We'd like to think that.
And I said, what are you here for?
He said to recruit that AI talent.
Um, so we're acknowledged as havinga reliable, good source of AI talent.
But then everyone knows that our,um, adoption rate lags a will.
(30:48):
There's a myriad of
possibilities as to why that is.
Some of 'em might relate back to whatwe're talking about earlier, um, about
we haven't had our backs against thewall yet and uh, I think we're coming up
to that backs against the wall moment.
And I think we've, we're poised toreally get that return out of AI that's
been promising for many, many years.
Well, I, I, I wonder about the tug andthe push and pull here to, to some extent
(31:12):
'cause it yet in, in yet another episodein the, uh, Leapfrog eries here we
spoke to the president of University ofWaterloo, and you know, that is a talent
pool for Silicon Valley, one of its primetalent pools for, uh, for Silicon Valley.
Um.
The capital that's there,the dynamism that's there,
(31:33):
you know, that's a real draw.
But will some of the barriers that arebeing put up in the United States to,
you know, to foreign talent, um, uh,values issues, which are so important
to everybody, but, you know, to youngerpeople in particular, I, I don't know how
that's gonna play out and if that creates,you know, a greater opportunity for you.
I, I think, uh, I think on,you've touched on a few things.
(31:54):
I, I think the conditions are set.
Or situation set for us to put in theconditions to attract even more talent,
not withstanding the talent that we'reproducing from world class institutions
like University or World Waterloo when itcomes to technology and AI and the like.
So what does that mean?
(32:16):
That means that we gotta createenvironment where people want
to come and build companies.
Um, that are backed by AI and we've gota lot of startups in this country, a lot
of terrific startups in this country, butwe've gotta get them to scale and they've
gotta become these unicorns and decacorns.
And the way that they becomeunicorns and decacorns is that the
(32:36):
rest of the corporate communityand government community needs to
embrace Canadian technology startups.
If that domino falls, then I thinkit's gonna be a tremendous advantage.
Why?
Because we've already got theinstitutions to produce these people.
Now it's like a machine.
Uh, it's like an industrial machine.
(32:57):
All we gotta do is create the outletvalve for it, and it's gonna be
the corporates and governments.
When I say corporates and governments,we gotta use Canadian technology.
We gotta give that Canadian scale upthe first opportunity, uh, to build
on their software, to build on theirtechnology to make it successful.
Uh, and it won't onlyjust be successful here.
(33:18):
It'll play into that diversificationcomment that I made earlier.
Because then it becomes marketableto the rest of the world.
Nothing's more dishearteningfor the Canadian scale up.
When somebody sort of said,who uses your software?
Who uses your technology, and you cannotname a Canadian organization of scale
that uses it, you're out of the water.
(33:40):
Out of the water already and then,and then even worse, if you convince
that non-Canadian organizationto use your technology that.
Organization becomes the anchorclient, which inevitably some
shareholder down the track says.
Why are you located inCanada in the first place?
Shouldn't you be next to your clientswho are all located in Country X
(34:00):
or Y or Z or in our case, the us?
So I think it's therebacks against the wall.
We start embracing and supportingCanadian organizations, which we are
doing in the consumer space at present.
Just gotta do it in the technology space.
And I see some of the institutionsstarting to see that and starting to do
(34:20):
that and, and I, I think we're gonna.
We are gonna produce a fewunicorns and decos as a result.
Good.
I think that the magic sauce that weneed to talk about as we enter the
clubhouse turn of this conversation isleadership, because none of this happens
without, uh, without good leadership.
And I know this is a hugepreoccupation of yours.
You only have to be at Deloittefor 10 minutes to, to learn that.
(34:43):
So.
What are you seeing as you go out there,as you interact with, uh, with everybody?
Is leadership rising to this challenge?
And then I wanna, I wanna unpackwhat kind of leadership, what,
what we need in, uh, in that way.
I have a privileged situation toget across this great country, and
I see a lot of different shapesand sizes when it comes to the
(35:06):
organizations that we deal with.
Private, public listed, not listed,um, private equity backed, um, family
capital backed, uh, and the like.
The best versions of what I see out,uh, are the ones that the leaders
that are taking the long-termview, seeing past, you know, the,
the current clouds, if you will.
(35:27):
Seeing the opportunity or the promisethat some of the things that we've spoken
about and they're leading with theiraction, they're putting capital at risk.
I've seen a terrific example ofa manufacturing company that is
tripling its output for export.Tripling its output for export.
Um, taken, taken, um, theirorganization, which is family back,
(35:51):
not their family, but the leaderconvinced the family to triple.
Their export in a, in what is going to bea really rough tariff period trade period.
Nonetheless, seeing pastthat, making that investment.
Actually, I've heard other, otherorganizations, large mid-market,
which is what this country's built on.
(36:12):
To my understanding, large mid marketclients that are just leading with
their capital because they've taken that5, 10, 20 year view into the future.
Um, that's the type ofleadership that we need Now.
It's easier, perhaps for a familyto see 10 years and 20 years into
the future than a tenured CEO thatmight be here for four years, six
(36:35):
years, eight years, or 10 years.
Or, or, or a short term investor.
Or a short term.
Or a short term investor.
But yeah, it's those investorsthat are looking past that.
We need more of that sort of stuff.
And that comes with, it comes a bitof pain perhaps, or comes with it
a bit of patience in the short termto your point around maybe you can
make a quicker buck somewhere else,but when you're building nations.
(36:58):
And sustainable nations.
You need sustainable communities.
And sustainable communities are builtby these business that are making
long-term plays and long-term investments.
And I'm seeing that across thecountry, but it's not playing
out at the top end, if you will.
It's playing out at Canada'sheartland, that mid-market, um, medium.
(37:19):
Second generation familybusinesses, if you will.
And when you talk about, um, rallying thepeople who are working for you around in
uncertain times and in dangerous times,in times of, you know, geopolitical
change, technological change, youknow, really, really sweeping change.
One of the things that I, I'veseen you talking about it,
(37:39):
I want you to explain that.
Um, is, is empathy, vulnerability,um, just, um, uh, you know,
showing your human side, I guess?
Or is that an importantpart of the equation?
I think it is.
Um, I think it is.
Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it that way.
I just mentioned it a couple of times, myown anxieties around what's transpiring,
(38:02):
and I think I'm equipped more thanmost to understand what's happening if
you don't understand what's happening.
What chance have you, you know,really got to move forward?
You know, I've heard it described as ina situation that there's fight or flight.
I heard it described, it's notactually, there's not much fight in
any of us, and that's me included.
It's freeze or flight.
(38:24):
Um, so if, if you don't demonstrate someempathy, um, 'cause I think the key to
all of this is you've gotta move on.
You've gotta move forward If you freeze.
Run away and hide, it's notgonna get better for yourself.
So I think the empathy is theimportant part to say, I'm here, I'm
not gonna leave you behind 'cause Iknow that's gonna be a bad outcome.
(38:45):
I need to understand your situation.
I need to help you understand, um,the other situation, which is to keep
moving forward, to take those risksto suffer a little bit as we build
the, the next, whatever that is.
I'm guaranteed it's notwhat it was yesterday.
It's not what it was yesterday, butwe're gonna figure it out together.
(39:07):
And when we stumble and fall, we pick eachother up, uh, and we keep moving forward.
I can't see a, this is apassionate point of mine.
I can't see how are we gonnathrive individually if the
systems around us are broken.
It's a false economy tosort of say, I'm, I'm okay.
Everyone else.
Um, bad luck for them.
(39:29):
It mightn't hurt you in yourgeneration, but the next generation,
it's gonna be a disaster.
Yeah.
We all live in the ecosystem,you know, regardless.
Right.
Final question.
Um, so, you know, we've spoken aboutthe state of the nation, we've spoken
about, uh, the state of leadership.
I wanna put those twotogether for a second.
(39:49):
How do you think, um.
We should be regarding the leadershipof the country, uh, and getting
these things you're talking about.
Right?
You know, tone at the top, if you will.
There's tone at the top.
It's not about what yousay, it's what you do.
And we gotta do some things.
(40:11):
So the leadership, and I sayleadership at the top, but it's
also leadership as a citizen.
We can get onto other topics asleadership, as a citizen, as a
citizen, we live in a community.
We've got a socialcontract with each other.
Uh, if, if we opt out of that, that'snot leadership that's gonna have a
detrimental effect, um, on, on ourcommunities, our smallest communities
(40:35):
before it gets up at, up to theprovincial and, and, and country levels.
So leadership is at all levels.
We shouldn't just defer.
Or outsource leadership just toPrime Minister Kearney who holds
the most privileged leadershipposition in the country.
It's every layer underneath thatwhere we should step forward, um,
(40:56):
and play our role in leadership.
And that to me is not talking aboutit, that is about doing it, um,
doing whatever needs to be done.
So I'm not sure if that's right onwhat your, your question, but I just,
we need more action and we've gottatake some personal accountability.
To, to step forward and lead inour particular way, whatever it is.
(41:17):
Well, I think where that leaves usis needing to have a conversation
at the end of the year, notjust in the middle of the year.
You know, when there's been more timeto see how action is, uh, is taking or
not taking a hundred, a hundred percent.
And I'm, I'm not, I'm an optimist, glasshalf full, whatever you want to call that.
I think we're gonna see more thanenough proof points to see that.
(41:39):
This country will start to getmoving and then the proverbial
snowball is gonna grow.
And I think it's gonna be done with ourbacks against the wall to start with.
It's gonna be hard, and we got whenanything's hard, it's better when
we do it together and we do it withempathy and we include along the
way such that when we build up thenew system of the future, everyone's
(42:01):
gonna prosper as a result of that.
But we need those firstfew dominoes to fall.
We need some action that's gonna inspireus to accelerate towards that future.
And as I said, I think this nextdecade could be one of the best that
Canada's had in our short history Bill.
Um, this is one of the bestconversations, uh, the Leaf Rock Series
had in this short history as well.
(42:21):
And I wanna thank you for the, uh, classhalf full take on, uh, on where we're
going and where we can particularly go.
As a country, you know,prosperity doesn't, um, um,
doesn't grow out of nowhere.
Uh, uh, you know, as you say, it,it, it lives in a social context.
And if we're, um, going to continue todo well as a country, that idea that, you
(42:42):
know, we have to, um, the relationshipbetween values and value was, uh, as
a certain Prime Minister wrote in a.
Uh, several years ago was,uh, is, is, is quite critical.
So, you know, thank you forchilling the same soil and
sharing that, uh, with us today.
And, um, I, you know, just onbehalf of listeners, um, uh,
(43:03):
it was a great conversation.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, so that was ourdiscussion for today.
A very good discussion, and nowfor you, our dear listeners.
Thank you.
We have a little bit of newsto impart at the end some
(43:24):
housekeeping and favors to ask.
So one, we want you to know thatwe're taking a break for August,
but we are leaving you with afull suite of podcast listening.
Pleasure to catch up on.
The Leapfrog series has hosted some greatguests over the last couple of months, and
it's plumb the depths with them of suchmatters as how we truly get things built
(43:45):
in the country, how we truly diversifyour trade relationships, how we truly.
Reform our tax system inorder to attract investment.
We put AI to work to makeus more competitive and more
in control of our lives.
We put our resources to work.
We develop, attract, and retain talent.
(44:05):
In other words, how we'll be moresovereign and more prosperous.
We've discussed all of those subjectsand we invite you to have a listen
to the catalog over the summer.
Two, and don't listen in isolation.
Tell your friends, tell your coworkers,tell your hairstylist, tell your
lifeguard, your pickleball partner.
We want everyone to be able toshare in the great experience we
(44:29):
think we're having, talking aboutwhat a leapfrog nation looks like.
Three share rate, follow sendtips to us for improvement.
Tell us how we can help you andtell us what you want to hear
about as we go forward, and thencome back and join us in the fall.
For more of full circle.
Finally, Canada matters to all of usin this country is the object of great
(44:51):
affection and respected home and abroad.
We matter and we can matter more.
So give yourself a pat on the back.
Everybody's been contributing, andwe all need to be participants in as
many conversations as we can, as tohow we are going to today, today's
circumstances in the world around usto turn Canada into a leapfrog nation.
(45:13):
Okay?
You have your assignments.
I look forward to seeing you.
I actually never get to seeyou, but I kind of imagine
what you look like in the fall.
I'm Edward Greenspon, and this has beenin Full Circle: The Leapfrog Series.
Have a great rest of summer.
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